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April 12, 2008
Perfect Water now not as Perfect.
By Truth in Amway
Since I first found out about this new perfect water product that Amway is going to be distributing the thing that of course caught my attention was the claims that were being made about this product. The whole deal about having improved flexibility, balance, and strength in just seconds with one ounce I found to be quite outrageous. No surprise to me however was the comments from those who came here defending such ridiculous claims.
In this situation however this story actually has a different twist from the outrageous product claims that have been made about Amway products of the past. A quick trip over to amquix.info shows several articles that Scott Larsen has written about perfect water and in many of those articles he has screen shots of the perfect water website as it has evolved. The twist on this product is that the manufacturer was making the claims as well and even had the infamous "tip-test" instructions posted on their website.
At the start it appears from the screen shots that the perfect water manufacturer was indeed making claims about improving balance, strength, flexibility. Also, they had the tip-test instructions posted for anyone to read and try out to prove how perfect their water was indeed. Today however the perfect water site makes absolutely no claims about their water except to say it's a great bottle of water. Nothing about a tip-test, or an improvement in any capacity.
I actually feel sorry for the IBOs on this one since the manufacturer of the product appeared to be encouraging these claims at one time, even though I believe some common sense questioning of the tip-test would show it to be bunk. Now that the perfect water site has removed all claims about the balance, flexibility and strength improvements it is my opinion they never really believed that their water could improve any of that. Now that the claims have been removed from the website however I am interested to see how many IBOs continue to defend the tip-test and the claims that were previously made about this product.
Comments
Truth...
Seems like this had publicity stunt written all over it from the start. My insider indicates that this water test was foisted upon downline in the Ron Puryear group first (along with a very small quantity of the miraculous water). The IBO in question was too dumb to have thought this one up himself. This has motiviational organization stink to it if you want my er snout's opinion. Of course other noses, er, opinions, may vary.
IMO, this is exactly the same way Amway's reputation became soiled.
Although the corporation didn't make outrageous claims about perfect water, they sat back and didn't appear to do much when IBOs were making all of these claims. They did issue a cease and desist order, but as someone said previously, it's like Willy Wonka telling the kid "stopm don't" when the kid was about to do something stupid.
Dusty,
I am glad the 'tip test' worked for you and your wife.
But a question for you... Is "balance" a big problem in your life? Were you and your wife stumbling down the street before this water?
Did you ever find yourself saying to each other, "Wow. Some days I feel like I can hardly stand up"?
Or did you discover this balance problem only AFTER knowing about Amway's new water?
This is alomost starting to p*ss me off. Truth, nice attempt at an apology. You slammed IBO's for making claims, that the PerfectWater website made itself. Nice of you to finally notice that we were simply saying what the Company was saying.
1 question? HAVE YOU TRIED THE WATER?? No? Then shut the heck up! I am tired of you blasting IBOs and the product, and you haven't even tried it?!
Are you serious? Give me a break!
"No I don't think the new Tylenol will help my headache" -
"have you tried it"
"Well, no, but it won't work"
Here's a tip - try it, and if it doesn't work, THEN blast it.
(oh, and if you're not gonna post this, like my other post, please send me an email explaining.)
Cathy,
A few things you are missing here. First I am not apologizing to anyone. IBOs while encouraged by the claims on the website should have questioned the claims themselves. If I own a business and decide to sell a product I am not going to blindly believe my supplier simply because they want to make a bold statement. I have encouraged IBOs all along to not listen to upline, trust their common sense instincts, and question things that seem out there. This is perfect example of where that advice would have done an IBO good. IBOs are just as much to blame for those claims as the company.
Second I have never blasted the product. It might be some good water, but I will blast the claims all day long. There is no greater benefit from drinking water with oxygen in it then there is in taking a couple of deep breaths.
Also, none of your posts have been maliciously deleted. Nice try to play victim.
"No I don't think the new Tylenol will help my headache" -
"have you tried it"
"Well, no, but it won't work"
-------------------------------------
Joe says: "I don't think diving off a ten story building headfirst is a good idea."
"Well how do you know? Have you tried it"?
So...what water u selling? eSpring filtered one or this new balance one?
Selling perfect air yet?
Hey Michman and Truth,
Have you tried it yet? Great product- Michman. Daaaa you guys complain about personal use and everthing else, well retail it to athletes then. Great product, works too and can be sold to customers. You negative people try to find somehting bad in everthing. This however is Awesome for people and our business. Thanks You Amway/Quixtar! you guys are always looking to improve and help us:)
Even if this magic water makes one more well balanced physically, it obviously doesn't make one any more well balanced mentally.
Dear IBO, while making your monthly purchase to keep your dreams of wealth alive, isn't it comforting you can pay so much for a product that is basically water? The AmQuix way to give you less and have you pay more! At least they could market this water in an aluminum can so you could at least receive a real kick back down at the metal recycler.
What is the next product Quix-czar is going to market: magic beans?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." (Herbert Spencer)
"Cathy, Jenny, you rock!" (me)
I would think someone who wants to use the name "Knows Better" would know that their quote works both ways. Interesting how that always seems to get missed.
There is no greater benefit from drinking water with oxygen in it then there is in taking a couple of deep breaths.
Actually - you have that backwards: There is greater benefit in a couple of deep breaths than there is in drinking water with 'oxygen' in it.
There is NO additional benefit, at all, to drinking water with 'oxygen' in it.
'Cause if there was, there'd be a warning label on each and every soda that would say you could pass out and die from all the extra carbon dioxide you're going to get through your stomach.
I'm already laughing, but I'm going to be laughing even harder when all you 'magic water' folks finally figure this out.
Quixtarisnotacult,
Be careful what you wish for....lol.
Eric
U.S. Navy and IBO
Just because the physical tests were temporarily removed from drinkperfectwater.com and Quixtar is cautious about claims, doesn't mean every personal testimonial about this product is bunk.
I have seen and heard of 1000s people tryng the various tests with Perfect Water with a very high percentage experiencing the benefits. Not just IBOs, but customers that are athletes, doctors, professionals, etc. that have no invested interest in the product. You might be able to dupe a few people, but c'mon.
I'm sure once Truth (what a joke) and other critics try the water they'll say that it didn't work or its just a mind game or some other negative spin.
As of right now, the bottled water industry is pushing $10 billon in this country. Thats bigger than the coffee and beer markets. So you can criticize all day long about claims, but I'm pretty fired up to tap into that market!
Hey Bob H/Bob Hart/quixtarisacult,
Um...do you have multiple personalities and therefore need differnt "handles" all around the Web?
Your credibility is seriously lacking.
TWS,
Care to show us how you know the physical tests were "temporarily" removed from the site. That is a pretty bold statement since it implies that they are coming back. Sounds to me like yet another claim that can't be backed up, but I wait to be corrected.
So how much of that market have you tapped? You know that the bottles you buy don't really count as tapping the market right? Sadly what the real joke is, is how so many IBOs got duped by the tip test and then sat back and still defended the company as they bailed on them.
How was TWS able to see "thousands" of people who gave tesimony on perfect water? Was it at an Amway function?
OK, I just had to do a search on "Perfect Water".
There's a guy, rep (IBO I guess you call them) that's been mentioning this 'wonder product' to me for several weeks now, and today, gave me a little idea of this 'tip test'.
However, he doesn't have "the water" just yet, oooooh, it's due to ship next week, whatever..
I know exercise science, how the body works, am a true technical geek and nearly couldn't contain myself on the claims he was making about this amazing water he would have available for "only $2.00 a bottle!".
I exercise like hell, have tried everything, and know that there is nothing out there that will turn you into a superhero by drinking a sip of it. Who the hell do these people think they are, and to be honest, if you're a reseller of this 'stuff', how can you honestly believe the claims Amway (ugh) or the MFR make of this water.
I always like to think that people in general can't be that stupid, but again, I'm proven compleletely wrong.
This guy has stickers all over his car of the products he sells, calls it his 'business', uses the amway template website, which he gave me a link to and I immediately said, there isn't any real contact information there, it just looks like a scam from the get-go.
Yet he's persistent in his claims of selling all this miraculous 'stuff'.
I give full credit to Amway, somehow they've figured out how to make a fortune from so many 'IBO's' that are convinced they are doing the world a service.
I still have a hard time believing there are that many clueless people in the world....
My Upline Platinum took my 7 yr. old to SLC, UT where it was discovered. I have health issues and he immediately called me tellling me about the woman who came on stage using a cane. Mike told me she was obviously in pain and has MS. The presentation was impromtu and she walked off the stage without the cane. He told me she said that it was like a lot of magnets in her body just ckicked together. I understand that Perfect Water was not on the venue at that function. An IBO on their way to the function stumbled upon it just wanting a water for the trip. The woman was asked at the function and it was not pre-planned.
I've tried it. It helps me get out of bed in the morning and decreases my amount of pain meds. As far as the Perfect Water sites, that's a no-brainer for IBO's in the know. All the info that the Perfect Oxygenated Essentials Co. claimed was moved over to our site so IOBs could continue to receive the best profits. Quixtar/Amway is legally looking out for its IBOs. So, in closing, if you weren't at the SLC, UT Spring Conference and didn't see what happened or what was said; if you haven't even tried the product, then you're most likely like the other quitters or people without the gumpshun to make your business work.
"If you really want to do something, you'll find a way; if you don't, you'll find an excuse."
""If you really want to do something, you'll find a way; if you don't, you'll find an excuse.""
Apparently if you really want to do something you are willing to believe almost anything as well.
So just so I am clear your Platinum took your child to some sort of an event. A woman went up on stage with a cane and some random IBO who happened to just pick up some Perfect Water without even knowing what it was just happened to decide to give her some and she was healed by the water?
...and Amway is suing MonaVie for claims about their product?
Word of advice to IBOs, it is my opinion that the perfect water company bailed on you when the nature of these claims started to be questioned. If you continue defending this nonsense and telling these stories you can pretty must say buh-bye to anything even close to resembling a business. There is something called business image that all actual business owners are very, very aware of. Some of you IBOs might want to look into the image you are giving your business.
Even if perfect water did what IBOs claim (but I doubt it), Quixtar is still a lousy business opportunity.
Please though, can we get a few more stories about the water before all logic and reason is brought back into the fray?
I am really getting a good laugh out of these claims.
Can anyone explain why IBOAI chairman Bill Hawkins is on video demonstrating the absurd "tip test" and the IBOAI website now says no one is aloud to use this exaggerated claim concerning Perfect Water. In fact, the IBOAI website and Quixtar site basically say the only claim you can make is that this "Perfect water" is ..well. you can say it is water. Looks to me like Hawkins (chairman of the IBOAI) and Quixtar arn't communicating too well. Now don't forget IBOs, the IBOAI is representing you.
Actually John I believe that video was recorded before anything was said by Quixtar about not doing the tip-test.
Cinicism can be healthy, sarcasm is a sign of a mean spirit, and ignorant bashing shows how immature a person is.
I am an IBO and I DO NOT support the hype on this new bottled water. I'm also a scientist and the entire notion that you can increase your blood haemoglobin oxygen content and 'feel' more flexible or whatever from drinking this water is complete and utter gobbledeegook nonesense. American consumers may be dum and dummer but as a trained Canadian scientist and IBO... all I have to say is this:
If you are thirsty, then you are probably dehydrated. In such a case, drinking any kind of potable water will likely save you from serious hypoxia.
The minteral content will help you maintain your cellular electrolyte levels.
By the way, all of the 'tip testing crazy banana stuff..... well it is simply the application of a well known biomedical muscle tone testing procedure used by health practioners.
It is called Active Release Therapy muscle tone testing. You can do it without drinking water. It was not designed to be used on dehydrated IBOs standing on a stage discovering their lack of flexibility and balance. It was good for a laugh though.
If you are selling this water; fine.. sell away. It is for the most part overpriced compared to other bottled waters and our e-Spring units produce high quality, clean drinking water for a fraction of the cost of any bottled water on the market. 4 cents per liter (2nd year and onward)
By the way... we have a nicely growing international business. We are no slouches as some IBOs seem to claim for those who doubt the claims of the Perfect Empowered Bottled water people. They are nothing more than a re-make of the old Aquagen product.
tb,
I don't think anyone has done any "ignorant bashing". The claims being made about this water are far-fetched and I have yet to see anyone point to one shred of evidence proving that this water does what it says. I have however seen two IBOs so far post here supporting the opinion that these claims are hogwash. One of those IBOs is the owner of thetruthaboutamway.com site who disagrees with me on perhaps everything about this business.
I think all IBOs would do themselves a world of good not getting involved in the wild claims about this water that the perfect water company has clearly abandoned.
I don't think anyone has done any "ignorant bashing".
Now - the bashing of the ignorant - heck, yeah - I'll admit to that. I didn't even need a sip of magic water (that NOW cures MS!!!) to do that!
As of today, April 28th
(a little over a month since Quixtar put an end to the claims in question),
These are the benefits/attributes an IBO can say about the Perfect Water:
*Purified (which is not the same as "filtered", by the way)
*Remineralized
*Ionized
*Microstructured
*Oxygen Rich
In terms of pricing, where I shop, Penta is the same price.
In terms of whether or not one believes in purification, or remineralization, or inonization, or microstructurization, or oxygen richation, it's up to them to research and decide for themselves.
There are other products offered by Amway Global, an almost 50 year old, $7.1 Billion (that's 7,100 millions) company, that I'm not I do not promote.
Isn't it fantastic that IBOs don't have just one product to market like most MLMs? Isn't it great that IBOs have many choices--like hundreds?
Is insider posting under anonymous names now? He posted under anonymous on my blog, but I knew it was him.
I have some questionss for everyone(both sides), if that's alright. The last thing that I want to do is to be negative towards anyone. I don't say that to imply that i am a push over, however i am a christian and I wish to hear everyone out in search of the truth, that is what I am interested in. I found this site when I was researching the perfect water I wounder why people get so upset about this particular business.
your thoughts...
BTW, you can buy a case of purified water at WalGreen's for $3.99.
they didn't post my last comment...?. Anyways,Why are people getting so upset about this particular business.
your thoughts....is it the people, the products, the way the people market the products?????
Joecool,
You're such a tease. The guy doesn't want to play with you anymore. You're trying to lure him like you do new IBOs on your MySpace and in book stores.
Get a life man. You were an IBO for less than a year over a decade ago. Let it go. Move on.
You're no longer anything new nor meaningful to the conversation.
Porkchopjim: lol
Imagine the campfire scene in Blazing Saddles. What if the methane emissions also included Magic Water oxygen?
Ok I will start off saying I have never tried it. But I have to say if you are doing this at the opens like I have seen it is WEIRD!!! Amway/Quixtar is lowering there image by doing these in that setting...
Oh well glad I stopped waisting all my money paying for the higher pins to enjoy life.... Be careful who you are in business with....
Former IBO
Jane, are you IBOfightback? Did you get a sex change?
Zach,
I'm not sure why no one has answered your inquiries yet.
What I've noticed and observed on this particular website is that there are 7-10 people who have taken up the role as "critic" against Quixtar/Amway and they are, for the most part, former IBO's. They have had some negative experiences in this particular industry. They may have had upline who gave them very poor advice. They may have blindly followed advice just because someone told them to, with no regard to their own conscience or common sense or situation. Some of them have legitimate complaints. Some of them however, in my humble opinion, did not go out & show the plan & lead & train & encourage others as you are supposed to. Some of them are 3rd party observers and have no basis to be on this site (or comment, anyway). They have no first hand experience so that means they have no right to tell others about this business.
Here's the bottom line. This is a business designed to help the "average joe" (no offense, Joecool) make some extra money toward their retirement or kids' college or paying off debt or vacation or whatever. There is a proven recipe to follow for success. If you don't follow it, the liklihood of success is reduced significantly. I know that first hand as I have experienced both ends of the spectrum. When we weren't CORE, our business suffered. When we were CORE, our business boomed! The reason so few reach the pinnacles in this business is the same reason there are so few successful in any other endeavor (athletics, entertainment, music, corporate america, etc.). The main reason is that people let life distract them and take their focus off of the 'prize', if you will. We've let that happen to us. We are willing to admit that we "let" that happen to us and we don't blame it on other people or circumstances.
This business offers you the opportunity to eat & drink healthier products and the ability to show others how to do the same, through retail. You get profits from retailing. No inventory! Your customers just order off the website and have it delivered right to their door! The check comes to you in the mail. You can also offer all the national & name brand products they currently purchase elsewhere. That's pretty cool!!!
On top of that, the more volume you move through your website, the bigger your bonus check.
That's it!
There are also several organizations attached to the opportunity who offer training & support. We're associated with Worldwide. They offer training sessions on retailing, how to stay focused, how to serve customers, how to show the plan, how to get prospects, how to lead & train your organization, etc. It's all optional. If you choose to build any type of business, there will always be training associated with it. The training in all industries comes in many forms such as cd's, books, meetings, conferences, counseling with leaders, etc.
It's that simple. What you have to decide is, are you going to listen to 7-10 negative people on the internet or are you going to go talk with people who have experienced success and are profitable in this business? Do you homework before signing up. Then once you do, you can be confident with your decision and focus and move forward.
Hope that helps you Zach.
Well as usual half the story on the tapes, CDs, books, and seminars was given. Zach, what susie left out was that your upline makes money off the sale of those things that are supposed to help you and in many cases the majority of their income is derived from the sales of those materials. Just do a search on Dateline and Quixtar in YouTube and you can see the Dateline investigation about those tools.
Now the tools are optional, but it puts a whole new paint job on things when these upline leaders are telling you to listen to them if you want to be successful and tell you things like "Tools are optional, but so is success." "If you are not getting CDs and books you are just wasting your time and mine." "I don't work with anyone who isn't serious and I know if you are serious when you start buying CDs and books."
Just a small sampling of how the leaders very much imply that the tools are only "optional" because it looks better from a legal standpoint.
Susie said: They have no first hand experience so that means they have no right to tell others about this business.
So Susie, do you consider Ken Burns an expert on the Civil War or Baseball? Heck, he wasn't even alive during the Civil War, nor did he even play high school baseball! Since he has no first hand experience, he has no right to tell others about his opinions, right?
Sorry to pick on just one comment and maybe take this discussion a completely different direction, but this ignorant belief that one NEEDS first hand knowledge in order to have an informed opinion is bull. I don't need to jump off the top of the Empire State Building to know it's a very, very bad idea. And I don't need to have been an IBO to have an informed opinion.
What I have are things like success rates. Did you know that less than 1 in 13,000 IBO's are Diamonds. Heck, only 1 in 1,400 are Platinums! That means significantly less than 1% reach this level of "success."
The reality is it is difficult to make a profit in Amway/Quixtar. The products are priced higher than the competition in stores like Wal-Mart and Target, and there is truly only a niche market that is willing to spend the extra on AmQuix products. While it is not impossible to make money, I'm willing to bet the majority lose money, which explains the huge rate of IBO's that do not renew--50% before their first year, and 2 out of every 3 every year! I would also imagine that with a minute level of product being sold to non-IBO's, most IBO's actually spend more money on AmQuix products than they make back on AmQuix bonuses. It's a mathematic certainty.
With tax time just finished in the USA, now is the time to look at your Schedule C and see how much you truly profitted. Then divide that by how many hours you work and see if you are actually making more than minimum wage, if you are profitting at all. If not, you should think about quitting.
Businesses exist for one reason, and one reason only. To make money. As a business, Alticor does well, but the overwhelming majority of IBO's do not. And I don't have to have experience as an IBO to understand this.
Let me ask you Susie...it seems that you have this all figured out...do you keep a P/L? In fact do you keep any of the business standards in regards to book keeping? Can you name what they are? How they are kept? See Zach, what Susie also forgot to mention is that they sell you a dream. They don't want you to keep track of expenses, like how much you spend on gas, or the mileage, or even how much they spend on food, because after all....it will all be worth it in the end when you "make it". Unlike normal business owners they will have you ignore the facts, especially if they are negative. They will have you blindly believe a select few who haven't even made money buy being a traditional IBO...they want you to believe that they have special new fangled products that no one else does and want you to pay outrageously for them...case in point...this new water. What they don't understand is that you can't have a positive without evaluating the negatives, burying your head in the sand is not the answer. There is nothing "business" about being an IBO. If IBO's are interested in retailing then why is most of their time spent recruiting?
PS...there are a lot more that 7-10 critics on the web. What advantage do you think there is for them? If you can be quick to judge them, then I am sure you know their motives...right?
Susie,
When I was sponsored, it was by a good friend. He said all you need to do is trust me and do what our upline says. They have blazed the trail, no need to re-invent the wheel, just copy (duplicate) what upline did. They said the tapes and seminars were key to your success. So why would I doubt it?
After having achieved a fairly significant level (4000 PV), I still did not earn the kind of (net) money that upline spoke about.
Additionally, my upline more and more wanted control of my life. Ask permission to buy a new car, have kids.
That's when I decided it was time to exit stage left.
Zach,
Truth is speaking from HIS experience and HIS experience alone. His statements have nothing to do with MY experience nor MY reality. I have NEVER heard any of the things TRUTH quoted.
In other words, he just proved one of my points. He was given bad advice. Period. No one has ever told us they wouldn't work with us or that we were wasting their time. There were a few times we fell off of the CORE bandwagon and never got beat up because of it. We didn't always purchase CD's or go to all of the functions or even buy all of the books. We went for months at only 30-40PV. They worked with us and were very patient and supportive of us.
We will work with anyone in whatever capacity THEY tell us they want to work. In other words, we'll work with them whether they want to be retail, prosumer (wholesale customer) or a business builder. If they're not interested at all....we thank them and move on! No big deal!
Also, the "upline" who are making the money off of the cd's & the conferences, etc. are the upline who are actually creating the cd's, putting together the conferences, speaking at the conferences or, they have earned their way into part of Worldwide Ownership. Just another benefit once you've reached a certain level. If you're any kind of a business person Zach, you understand that when people write books or make a cd or give a speech or pay for a conference room, they will at the very least, try to re-coup their initial cost and probably want to make a profit on top of that.
It's debatable as to whether more money comes from retailing & bonuses or from the marketing end of the business. I suppose that depends on the level you're at and on how much work & time you put into the marketing end of the business.
So Zach, keep in mind that much of what is on this site is pure experience which is completely subjective.
Again, do your homework, use discretion, and actually talk "live" to some people (perhaps a Diamond in your area?) who are currently involved. Then, make your decision.
Good luck to you.
Susie
"... are you going to go talk with people who have experienced success and are profitable in this business?"
Yeah... I keep hearing this "success" and "profitable" over and over. Yet how come I never actually see any proof of it?
Joecool,
No and no.
Insider/IBOFightBack doesn't play the depception game like you do.
You are living in the past and trying to drag as many down with you as possible.
Please don't respond to this comment. I'm really not interested in "get in to it" with you.
Zach,
Be very wary of IBOs who claim to be "successful" - use due diligence and press them to back up their claims with a Schedule C, a P/L statement, whatever.
Questions like how much do they retail vs sponsoring or "Buy from yourself - teach others to do the same".
BTW, "it's personal" and excuses like that are not acceptable - these people are asking you to get in Business with them - so you have EVERY RIGHT to ask for financials.
If they do give you a lot of song & dance - this should be telling you something.....
You will find that most, if not all, are very low level (Founder's 3%) IBOs making the success claim and are parroting upline talk. Plus, every group is "the fastest growing LOS".
Also, if you show any interest in the biz, prepare for the love-bombing and ego stroking (you'll be a winner, go-getter, Diamond material, etc.) from complete strangers with the intent of getting you to sign up.
Many critics here have been open with their numbers - they are availible over at the Forum section under member intros. I was in for 4 years. The first year I did little with the biz. The other 3 years I worked this biz hard
and was out 5-6 nights/week STP, retailing, and working groups. So no, I was NOT lazy or "didn't work it" (Common excuses applied to former IBOs by current IBOs)
The best I ever achieved was the 2500 pin level - I followed the advice of my upline Diamonds Brett Diemler and Fred Harteis all the way, so there goes the "bad upline" excuse.
I quit the biz because:
1) the profit just wasn't there
2) I found the markup difference to be poor for the IBO.
3) Hard to keep customers and charge retail prices when competing IBOs would gladly give customers the IBO price to get PV and undercut me.
4) meddling from upline in my business.
In the end Zach, if you have weighed all the pros and cons and think this business is for you - then go for it! But, do not let anyone label you a "loser" because you said no.
Truth and whomever!
I have a question! If you became successful in any business and made a tape or cd about how you became successful in that business, should you not get royalties from those CD's or tapes? I don't know if that question was brought up in earlier post and I know I'm off subject just like some of us here but I would like to be paid if I came out with cd's and tapes and appearances at functions. Now I'm against IBO's as leaders pushing their downlines to buy cd's, tapes or whatever.
Zach, Let that be a decision for YOU about books, cd's and functions. I mean you been to a concert and paid possibly a high price ticket or whatever and I'm sure somebody said they thought that concert sucked but you like it anyway. It's all about what YOU think. If an IBO tell you anything different or if you have that gut feeling...follow that gut feeling. Again, I don't have anything against anybody here on this site cause I believe in free speech and I believe in this business and my country. I've served 15 years for it and now it's my turn. This business as well as this country is OUTSTANDING and you guys is what make this country the United States of America. So I hope my two little cents is well worth it to Zach and whomever else come on here looking for info but I will not fuss about this business or about this site. Both are serving a really good purpose and all should think more of their integrities. Thanks again Truth for letting me post.
Well it appears Zach has quite a thread of information now. Interestingly enough though Zach you see Susie's response to me is quite typical. As you can see by her answer she was indeed only giving you half the story as now she was forced to admit to tool profits. This is how many others had to find out about tool profits.
I would also like to point out that she still has not given you the full information since there are many IBO leaders who make money from CD sales that they did not make, book sales that they did not author, and ticket sales to conferences they never spoke at.
Contrary to others belief this is not just my experience it is the experience of many, many others. Of course once someone does some research they will realize this.
So yes Zach by all means do your homework.
Eric,
To answer your question, yes if I wrote a book, or did a CD I would expect to get paid or see some sort of profit from teaching someone to do what I did.
With that said it does not compare to Quixtar or Amway motivational organizations. There are many others who make money from the sale of CDs that they did not speak on, yet another fact susie left out of her comments to Zach. I have not known of any IBO leaders who actually wrote the book that they were selling, and if there has been one it is so rare it doesn't compare. Also on top of that there are many IBO leaders who make money from ticket sales who never speak at the conference.
I would never participate in any such scheme, especially because of the way uplines in this business make others think that they are required to buy these things or else they won't succeed. There is a market out there for these types of materials, but only these motivational organizations make it seem that you must keep buying these items in order to succeed, and in my opinion that is wrong because it simply is not true.
Truth said, "As you can see by her answer she was indeed only giving you half the story as now she was forced to admit to tool profits. This is how many others had to find out about tool profits."
"forced to admit"??
That's not how I read Susie's comment at all.
...and that means what Jane?
In my previous post you have yet to have answered any questions I directed to you or address any points.
She did not give the whole story and only commented when called out. Are you saying she would have come back and wrote: "oh and by the way upline leaders make money on those CD, books, etc"? If not then I call that forced by being called out.
Besides the story still wasn't told in full after admitting to tool profits considering the fact that she tried to paint a picture that people are only getting paid for work they do on CD's etc. and that just simply isn't true.
Susie,
Have you been associated with WWDB for 2-5 years? If so, you must be a financially free diamond. This is true because their system is a "proven system of success." I was associated with Worldwide and I know firsthand that they are more interested in you buying their tapes and CDs than building your (its Quixtar, its not Amway) business. Teaching retial is brand new in WWDB because Quixtar if forcing it. All these years it has had absolutely no focus on retial. It was "buy from yourself and teach others to do the same." Every function is a commercial presentation of CORE, CORE, CORE. Keep giving them your money if you want. Or take the money you spend in tapes and functions and invest it in the market. I say the markey will provide you a much greater return.
Susie recommends to Zach... "do your homework, use discretion, and actually talk "live" to some people (perhaps a Diamond in your area?) who are currently involved. Then, make your decision."
CK asks: He's talking to an IBO already, isn't he? I'll ask the relevent questions for him: What was the line 12 entry on your 2007 1040, and how many hours did you work to achieve this success?
It's simple math and the documents are already prepared. How convenient!
Jane or any other IBO are also welcome to respond.
susie said:
"If you're any kind of a business person Zach, you understand that when people write books or make a cd or give a speech or pay for a conference room, they will at the very least, try to re-coup their initial cost and probably want to make a profit on top of that."
Interesting comment, susie. One thing you should really keep in mind is that the Diamonds are ALREADY making a profit off their downline through the sale of products in their Quixtar/Amway business. Whether it's IBOs or customers purchasing product is immaterial - the bottom line is each time a product is sold by Quixtar to someone in a Diamond's group, that Diamond earns part of their bonus from that sale.
So, if the Diamond is already making a profit off the sale of products, why do they need to make money off the tools as well? If they built their business correctly (i.e. following the same methods they teach their downline), they should have a good income from Q/A and not need the tool income.
If the Diamonds were eally concerned with the best-interests of their downline, they would make their motivational organizations non-profit companies. That's right, non-profit. Sell all the tools and functions at cost. The Diamonds' income would then come solely from their Q/A buiness. That's a group of Diamonds I could start to respect, because then they are making ALL of their income from their Q/A business, instead of having the lingering question of how much they profit from the functions when they encourage you, ever so strongly, to attend everything. The Diamond still gets their function, they still have the cost defrayed, and they instantly become more credible because there's no question where their income is coming from.
Until that happens, take all training and counsel with a grain of salt.
John said, "Teaching retial is brand new in WWDB because Quixtar if forcing it."
Really? You may want to look at the timeline, John. First Circle (having each individual IBOship be profitable regardless of sponsoring someone, by retailing) was initiated by a WWDB Diamond before Quixtar.
By about a year.
In fact, it was that Diamond who brought it to Quixtar.
And it is First Circle that is cleaning up the business.
Those Diamonds who do not wish to participate seem to be either getting kicked out or resigning.
Here's my theory, I tried perfect water and was given the stength and balance test before and after drinking the water. My belief is during the test, you are week. after drinking "Perfect Water" you seem much better, I believe you could drink any water and your strenghth test would improove. Perfect water does work, so does Dasani water, Evian water and Tap water. Praise God for water. God Bless
CK,
FYI: This is for U.S. only. Canada has very, very, very different tax laws...
It's not simple math. We run three separate businesses, all reported on Schedule Cs, so what we write on line 12 of a 1040 is the accumulation of those three businesses.
On top of that, there are LEGAL tax deductions (as an example, for 2008, one can deduct 50.5 cents for each mile driven for business purposes) that one takes on the Schedule C.
There is money that my husband and I would be spending anyway, in our lives, that is now tax-deductable on one of our three Schedule Cs because we are business owners.
So taking the info from line 12 of one's 1040 would not give a full and accurate picture of the true profit/loss of a business, in terms of how it effects the bottom line in our household.
The difference between business owners and employees regarding the tax law is this:
Business owners--everywhere, not just in the Quixtar/Amway business--have LEGITIMATE tax deductions that they can take on their every day life expenses. So they are paying less taxes (per dollar of revenue) because the taxable income is less.
Employees do not have nearly the amount of tax deductions. One has to pay a mortgage and/or property taxes and/or have very high medical expenses (greater t han 7.5% of their income) in order to file a Schedule A and get any tax deductions.
Business owners have the ability to lessen their tax burden, while employees do not.
This business is NOT to be looked at as a tax deduction or as a "tax shelter". It definitely is a money-making business.
But the U.S. Tax Code supports businesses, particularly small businesses, because businesses are what generate $$ that flow through many hands in this country. So their are LEGAL tax-deductions in order to incentivize and to support businesses growth.
I take issue with people asking/demanding/insisting at looking at line 12 (for 2007) of a 1040 to determine the business's value.
As I said, this dollar amount does NOT give a full and accurate picture of the impact in one's household.
I actually agree with some of what free from q*wrote: ask your immediate potential sponsor what they make & what their expenses are. they should tell you. any other ibo...it's not your business. just the one who you would join under.
you should never allow anyone to call you a loser. we are all God's children and we are all called to different things, each to our own abilities & talents. if you don't choose this legitimate, legal & moral business as your route to make extra money...no biggie. move on and find something that suits you better. keep in mind though...this is just the vehicle to get you to where you are meant to be and do what you are meant to do.
rlaurens,
open your mouth and ask. there are many many testimonies of success & prosperity tied directly to this business opportunity. just seek & you will find.
truth,
i was quite clear about the tools. if you're part of the ownership (in whatever fashion that is) then you get some profit! i still don't have any idea what the uproar is in upper level leadership making money off of the marketing system, of which they are a part. i will someday...trust me. and by the way, what did you mean by "forced to admit"??? i haven't been on here until now. you've never threatened or forced me nor have i ever hidden anything.
i came on to give zach some first-hand, real, honest information from the perspective of an active wwdb ibo. i don't intend to hang around. i have many other things to do. for example, put together an order for a booth at a sporting event (for one of our downline, mind you) and call several customers to let them know their perfect water is here!!! ;-)
john,
they don't teach "be a part of this system & business for 2-5 years and you will be financially free!!!". they teach: be HARD CORE which translates to showing the plan 3-5 or MORE times a week. Be consistent. Counsel. Teach. Guide. Serve. Work. Work. Work. HARD. Then, after consistent, non-stop hard work for 2-5 years, you should be diamond or close. Or even above! the problem is john, 95-99% of the people out there do not do what it takes! i also already clearly stated in an earlier comment that we have not been CORE consistently the entire time so of course we're not diamond. DUH!
exwwdbibo,
who are you to tell people how much money they can earn? wow. you're going to tell people they don't have a right to make additional income other than from the sales of products and services? who cares if they are part of the marketing system and make money off of it? we will too once we reach a certain level! i bet you're a democrat.
zach, don't listen to ck. he/she has absolutely no credibility as they don't have any qualified, first-hand experience in this business.
free from q*,
nothing personal BUT, i cannot fathom how you can show the plan 5-6x a week for 3 years and only get to 2500??????? we only show the plan an AVERAGE of 2-4x a week (not yet consistently though...that's important) and we've gotten to about 2200 and our biggest check was $1200. Now, i don't know how filthy, stinkin' rich you are....but that isn't chicken feed. most people would LOVE to have that kind of extra cash to help with the bills.
by the way, our profit level is among the highest in the business AND it's been PROVEN that our comp plan beats any other network marketing business out there!
Couple more points to add:
The diamonds, not that long ago, swore that there was no profit from tools. After the scam was exposed, they swept it under the rug and now give vague information about the profits, but still no transparency for most IBOs.
Secondly, the LOS mantra is simple - buy from yourself and get others to do the same. Why would you need and endless supply of tapes and books and neverending seminars to learn such a simple concept?
CK,
In a nutshell what Jane is trying to say is that she doesn't want to reveal those numbers (of course we know why) and instead of coming right out and saying that she needs to use a bunch of fluff. I am betting that I reported more in misc income on my taxes then the great majority of IBOs claimed in income from Quixtar as a "business".
Sorry susie I have been through this with so many IBOs before it just doesn't wash. You were clear about the part of tools you wanted to be. Only after being called on the facts about the income did you admit it. Unfortunately for you many IBOs are upset when they find out about the tool profits.
You see what you IBOs who are "business people" fail to realize is that there is a very simple business principle of motivation. See it's not the sale or profit of tools, it's the BS ways the tools are promoted as if you don't use them you are sure to fail.
You have also revealed your true colors telling someone not to listen to another opinion. Your whole "do your homework" routine of advice is clearly a farce. I would hope someone reads or listens to all opinions from every side and checks it out. I still cannot understand why IBOs think their opinions are the only ones that matter.
susie,
If a Diamond wants more income than what is provided in the comp plan from Quixtar, they should invest it in the stock market, in venture capital, or some other avenue that adds value to society as a whole. I personally do not like that they profit off their in the form of compensation from Quixtar and then double-dip by selling tools to their downline at a profit. That screams conflict of interest. In fact, it's the same reason why I wouldn't take classes from professors that wrote the text they teach from in college - especially when it's a required text. They're already making an income from the college by teaching the course, why should I pay them more?
If the Diamonds want more money on top of what they already make - they should go out and build a huge retail business on top of whatever they already have, instead of double-dipping their downline for profits.
You are correct about my being Democrat, and I'm damn proud of it. So what? You say it like it's a bad thing.
"...there are many many testimonies..."
OH, RLY?
Would you be the first who will actually show a PROOF of this 'testimonies'?
Or is this going to be similar to the testimonies on those late-nite infomercials?
Susie,
I couldn't fathom why I wasn't at least Emerald either. The problem was the "rotating door" of IBOs in my group. Most left because they were shown 8-10 hours/week plan and now suddenly they were supposed to be CORE 3-5+ nights/week. Nobody likes a bait & switch.
BTW, I said "was out 5-6 nights/week STP, retailing, and working groups" - not STP 5-6 nights a week. There's a difference there. Do you tell prospects about "hard, hard, hard" or show 8-10 hrs??
the 2500 pin level was the best I acheived - though I came close to 4000 a few times. 1200.00 is a nice check, I had some nice checks,too. Expenses to make that check took care of any profit.
My immediate upline never went past a 4000 pin, my q-12 never went past q-12, and they made me look like a lazy bum. So, please save the keystrokes in the myth of 99% don't work it and the myth "do the work, you'll be Diamond".
IBOs don't like being called Ambots or sheep or suckers, and rightfully so. It really pisses me off that IBOs use the throwaway respones "you were just lazy/didn't do the work" in rationalizing why someone like me didn't become Diamond.
I'm glad you are getting a different experience than mine - and good for you about one of your downline is operating a booth to retail product and you supporting.
Also, IBOs - be very wary of tax deductions for "every day life expenses" in being an IBO. Many IBOs have tried to take items (SA8, XX, Perfect Water)that they use personally as a deduction and have gotten in trouble with the IRS for that.
Hey joecool, where is your proof that "The diamonds, not that long ago, swore that there was no profit from tools"?
truth,
i've come to the conclusion that you will believe what you will believe...no matter how many FACTS people throw at you. You can keep your head in the sand if you want....I'm opting out...I've given all the honest answers I can...
By the way, Jane gave an excellent and thorough job explaining her situation, which is one of multiple situations that an IBO could be going through! I am also an IBO who has more than one business.
Anyway truth, you need to think and hear beyond your own personal experiences.
goodbye (hopefully!) and good luck,
susie
Truth,
Yeah. Fluff. Right. I own businesses outside of my Quixtar business, and YOU are telling ME about business? Please.
JoeCool,
Again yo aure living in the past. You are quoting a business model that has been changed with the First Circle/Transformation. Get...over...it...and move on.
What I take issue with is people like you Jane pretending to be some kind of all knowing business person. I have yet to met a fellow business owner who refuses to speak of their P/L...in fact you haven't even made mention of one. The fact that you would take issue with someone asking for standard business operating book keeping information proves you know nothing about business. I know P/L by memory as do many other business owners I know, and have absolutely no problem in sharing this information. Those who make excuses are usually running at a loss and don't want anyone to know or they have something to hide. Those numbers DO have a direct impact on your business, it's validity and therefore your household...especially since this is a home based business. Again...if you are saying it doesn't then that's because you don't track expenses, either at all or correctly.
Oh, and you are wrong about your expenses being those that you would have with or without the business...that shows that you don't keep track of them.
Susie....mind sharing with all us critics this supposed proof? I am sure we would all retract our criticism with the appropriate proof. Oh, but just because you saw a big check in someones hand, or someone claims to be living financially free does not qualify as proof.
Susie,
The same can be said for you. You only want to believe those statements that make your business look good, and you wish to stick your head in the sand about the rest.
You so badly want to believe that everything on this blog is one experience...mine! The facts however are clearly the contrary. In the comments of the over 1500 entries on this blog show many many others with similarly unethical and dishonest practice experiences as well as the forum and that is all from just one site.
Yet even with that facing you, your head remains buried deep while you try and keep yourself in your comfort zone by telling yourself it is all one person's experience. After running and authoring on blogs for a few years I can promise you if there is one thing I have done it is "think and hear beyond my own experience", and sadly some of the things I have heard are worse then anything I ever experienced. I recommend that you try and see and hear outside only the positive rosy experiences and stop assuming that every bad testimony is some loser who didn't want to do the work.
Jane,
Do I detect from your elitist attitude that you think I know nothing about business? You know what happens when you assume? I happen to know quite a bit about business far beyond my time in Quixtar. I know plenty to know that what you told CK was either total fluff to try and distract from the question (for which you are prone to do) or you keep horrible business records.
I know that a good business owner who owns multiple businesses keeps detailed records of each business P/L at a minimum. I guess it supports that crazy idea about being able to know the financial strength of each business. Just because someone doesn't so willingly flaunt around about their business doesn't mean they don't own or know nothing about the world of business.
Truth, Gina, et al,
Do you honestly think that you are entitled to know my income?
From Quixtar, or the other two businesses I run?
Am I running for public office? No
Why, would I(or anyone in their right mind) tell you any details on my tax returns?
To people I don't know, on a blog, on the Internet?
That's just crazy. And I know you know it. But your tactics aren't to be sane.
You tactics are to goad people, and to badger them.
And I'm here to say that no one has to answer you.
And that not engaging in your bullying tactics is not a sign of weakness, or that they are hiding something, or that they are embarrassed, or whatever hurtful adjective you want to use.
Jane,
Please point out where I asked you to post your income. Don't lump me in with the others you want to berate for asking for that. I could care less what you income from Quixtar is, doesn't make any difference in the fact that the tool system is unethical and corrupt.
I simply pointed out that fluffy answer you gave to CK instead of just coming right out and saying that the number on line 12 is none of anyone's business as far as you are concerned.
Then my next response was to tell you it was a bad idea to assume I have no business experience just because you don't her me talking about it all the time. No where did I ask you to post your income, but I await you showing me where I did.
Jane says..."Do you honestly think that you are entitled to know my income?"
No one is asking for your income. You might want to look up what a P/L is.
Jane says...."Why, would I(or anyone in their right mind) tell you any details on my tax returns?"
Because that is common place in the business world. Its basic information and in no way private.
Jane says..."That's just crazy. And I know you know it. But your tactics aren't to be sane."
Nothing crazy about it. Call up a local business and ask them about their P/L...they will be more than happy to share. Would you like some info about mine?
Jane says..."And that not engaging in your bullying tactics is not a sign of weakness, or that they are hiding something, or that they are embarrassed, or whatever hurtful adjective you want to use."
Are you sure about that Jane? First, there is nothing bullying about asking for a P/L. You take it as such because you either don't know what one is or don't keep one. Your attempt to become a victim here is truly sophomoric.
The issue here is that for a long time IBO's have been harking from the mountain tops of how profitable they are and how they are great business owners and yadda, yadda, yadda, but yet not a single one, to my knowledge, has been able to back these claims, and you Jane are no different. There is no personal information on a P/L so there is no issue posting certain figures, in fact any and all companies traded on the S&P in anyway must have theirs, among a myriad of other information, available at a moments notice. Why, if you were asking someone to "partner" with your business or "invest" in your business would you not have that information ready before they even ask? If the people you are prospecting don't ask, well, then that speaks volumes for the people you look to prospect.
Knows better wrote: Hey joecool, where is your proof that "The diamonds, not that long ago, swore that there was no profit from tools"?
Joecool says: Well, I sat in the function when a WWDB diamond said it. My upline said it in a nite owl, and I have seen some testimonies from others who heard the same thing.
Jane wrote: JoeCool,
Again yo aure living in the past. You are quoting a business model that has been changed with the First Circle/Transformation. Get...over...it...and move on.
Joecool says: I will move on when the tools scam is stopped. Everyone says things are different but I see little evidence os significant change. Groups are still taught "buy from yourself" and the tools income is still downplayed. Maybe the abusive groups need to change and move on?
"Do you honestly think that you are entitled to know my income?"
No, but then every sane person would be correct in lumping your income together with the rest of your cohorts.
$115/mo.
Truth,
You are right, you don't come right out and say many things.
You are too cunning for that.
Instead you imply and you incinuate.
Jane claims: "There is money that my husband and I would be spending anyway, in our lives, that is now tax-deductable on one of our three Schedule Cs because we are business owners."
Really? Like what? You mentioned your mileage, but the reason you can deduct 50.5 centes/mile is because you are taking that in lieu of actual expenses, which would include depreication, insurance, maintenance/repairs, and gas/oil. It COSTS you 50.5 cents a mile to drive.
I drive quite a bit for my job, and get reimbursed that 50.5 cents. I don't profit from that arrangement, I break even.
The only legitmate Sch C expense I can think of that you might be claiming, that is truly an expense you'd have anyway, is the office-in-home, which would allow you to deduct a portion of the cost of your utilities. Yes, you can deduct a portion of the mortgage expense, but you can deduct that on your schedule A, anyway (and contrary to what you wrote, plenty of people file Schedule A, don't you?).
You can also deduct depreciation, but then you have a capital gain when you sell, as well as potential recapture if you sell before you've fully depreciated your home, so it's not as big a deduction, long-term, as one might think.
But to make it easy for you, how about if you add your form 8829 expenses back into your Sch C line 31, and tell us THAT number (this would be your profit from just your Am/Quix business).
So, what other "expenses that you'd have anyway" are you claiming? Do you think they'd stand up to sudit?
You have an opportunity to provide anecdotal evidence that this "business oppportunity" is actually that - why shy away now?
did anyone try this? it worked on me.May be your not into sports, but if I dinking bottled water whats the big deal. If you have not tried it how can you have much of a oppinion?
Jane said:
"Business ownerseverywhere, not just in the Quixtar/Amway business--have LEGITIMATE tax deductions that they can take on their every day life expenses. So they are paying less taxes (per dollar of revenue) because the taxable income is less."
Meh Says:
There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't know where to begin.
1. Not just business owners can deduct mileage as you say. I'm not an IBO, nor do I own a business. I can deduct all mileage on my vehicle in excess of my daily commute for business purposes just as you can.
2. I continue to be puzzled by the whole expense deduction reducing taxable income line. A friend of mine who is an IBO ran that one by me too. If we think about it for a second though..
...If expenses from the business reduced your total taxable income
That would mean your expenses from the business exceeded your revenues.
Thus your business is not profitable unless (on to number 3)...
3. The phrases "legitimate tax deductions" and "every day life expenses" do not belong anywhere near each other. If you are deducting every day life expenses you are in for tax liens, penalties and interest, and perhaps, depending on the amounts and nature, sentencing (as doing what you are describing is tax evasion, and thus defrauding federal and state governments).
Looking at expense deductions as a bonus is utter foolishness.
"You are right, you don't come right out and say many things. You are too cunning for that. Instead you imply and you incinuate."
...and you can't answer any of my questions so what's your point?
Tell you what, show me where I insinuate and prove that I am in fact insinuating what you say I am, or am I too cunning for you to be able to do that as well.
Free from the Q* says: Also, IBOs - be very wary of tax deductions for "every day life expenses" in being an IBO. Many IBOs have tried to take items (SA8, XX, Perfect Water)that they use personally as a deduction and have gotten in trouble with the IRS for that.
Not to call you a liar but I would like know how you came about that statement above.
Proud U.S. Navy and IBO.
Eric
Wow...are IBO's taught how to talk without actually saying anything? If that's what the tools do then BRAVO...they do their job...I guess one could justify those thousands of dollars as well spent.
Jane...you are not addressing anything. How can you debate an issue, or defend yourself or what have you if you don't have anything to say?
Jane, the reason why an IBOs income becomes an issue is because so many IBOs have come onto this blog promoting quixtar as the greatest business in the world. It's simple and easy, anyone can do it. I'm going diamond, etc etc etc.
Then when asked what that IBO's business looks like or how much they are making, it becomes a taboo subject. Why is that? Pretty much everyone here is anonymous.
I even posted what my business structure looked like when I was active and how much I was making. What's so hard about doing that?
Ok, everyone, quit putting words in IBO's mouths...
...No one says it's the greatest BUSINESS in the world.
...The correct term is the 'greatest business OPPORTUNITY' in the world.
Now - the subsequent question is: How can it be the greatest opportunity in the world if very, very few people seem to be able to make that opportunity work, and those that claim it does have an aversion to showing anything that might support that claim?
Someone says: "How much money do you make? I bet you'll be just like every other IBO who claims success yet barfs out tapespeak excuses as to why you shouldn't show how much money you make."
IBO responds: "Tapespeak barf excuses as to why I'm not going to say how much money I made."
Every...single...time.
Oh - BTW - how long does 1 oz of 'magic water' work for? You know, the increased flexibility/oxygen/x-ray vision. Does it wear off after a minute or so? If it does, do you have to drink 'magic water' 24/7? If it lasts longer, why buy a whole case of it when you can just sip 1 oz and you're good for the rest of the day?
I was very skeptical when I heard the outrageous claims about Perfect water. I did order some, I have drank a few bottles and I have honestly seen no difference between it and other high end bottled water. I'm a yoga instructor and ANY water that you drink will improve flexibility, prevent muscle strain, and mental clarity. I even did a blind taste test with my favorite bottled water, Fiji Artesian Water, and I could tell the difference in taste. I liked the Fiji better! Fiji Water's taste is softer than Perfect Water.
It seems to be that the placebo effect could be the reason why these "test subjects" have increased flexibility, clarity, balance, etc. If an IBO is hyping up a product to a consumer who wants to believe that this product is IT. Then it is possible that the consumer may have increased ability due to the fact that he believes in it so hard! I'm not trying to put this product down, but this is a very common marketing stratgey to get consumers to believe that the product they are consuming is far superior than anything out on the market.
I was really looking forward to this product coming out and offering to my students. Unfortunately it's "illegal" to sell the product in a store if you have the paying customer keep the bottle. And I have no interest in becoming an IBO and trafficing my students/clientele to a generic quixstar website (not my own)to buy products.
My 2 cents
Love and Light!
"...have gotten in trouble with the IRS for that.
Not to call you a liar but I would like know how you came about that statement above."
How about this ten tax court cases for starters?
- Meyer:
- Nissley:
- Theisen:
- Minnick:
- Moore/Ingram:
- Ollett:
- Lopez:
- Guadagno:
- Ogden:
- Landrum:
*************************
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2776&start=32
Free from the Q* says:
Also, IBOs - be very wary of tax deductions for "every day life expenses" in being an IBO. Many IBOs have tried to take items (SA8, XX, Perfect Water)that they use personally as a deduction and have gotten in trouble with the IRS for that.
US Navyman Eric responds:
Not to call you a liar but I would like know how you came about that statement above.
Uhmmm...from US Tax Court?
In Nissley, the court specifically opined that "an Amway distributorship presents taxpayers with opportunities to generate business deductions for essentially personal expenditures."
But there are plenty of others for your reading pleasure...
ustaxcourt.gov
Random thoughts:
*I question why IBOs come on to these blogs and beat their chests like idiots.
*I question why IBOs feel the need to defend ANYTHING on a blog to people they don't know.
*You can have a great biz opportunty, but if you don't do the necessary WORK (which, going to meetings and listening to audios and reading books are only PART OF THE EQUATION)you will not make any money.
Just like going to the gym and working out will not get you to lose weight. Your intake of food has a bigger impact. People only do some of the necessary habits, don't do them consistantly, and don't do them long term. And they wonder why they don't get the results.
And the critics blame the opportunity, rather than the IBOs who maybe never should have been registered in the first place.
There's a reason why the majority of Platinums and above were self-employed/business owners BEFORE they were IBOs. Different mindset.
*I net, after expenses, about a grand a month from Quixtar--actual money deposited in my account from the Quixtar Corporation. We put in (not counting ridiculous unproductive time like this blog) about 40 hours a month--combined. My husband and I make considerably more than $25/hr in our other businesses, but we also understand duplication and multiplication versus addition. I do not have the ability to duplicate, and neither does my husband, in our other businesses.
*In our other businesses, some of the "everyday expenses" which are tax deductable are: mobile phone, ISP, laptop, publications to periodicals I'd subscribe to anyway.
*Example of how business owners think regarding reducing one's tax burden: I went on a biz trip (not this biz). My husband wanted to come with because the location was outstanding. The plane ticket was $1,000. He booked a "gig" (he's NOT a musician)out there in order to make the plane ticket a tax deduction. He was paid $1,200 for the gig, showed $1,000 as a tax-deduction for the airline ticket, netted $200, paid taxes on $200 (not $1,200) and we had a lovely mini-vacation.
*One ounce of the water for me lasts about three hours if you are referring to the "illegal" tests.
I drink one to two bottles a day. The benifits are more than the dog-and-pony show of the "tests".
X-ray vision does not appear to be a benefit for me.
I'm convicted that my time here is not well spent.
Happy trails until next time...a long...long...time I hope.
Back to the water- I tried my 2 oz this morning and will ration out the rest to the family tomorrow. Bought the bottle from a fellow little league parent. Would love it to work miricles but so far haven't noticed a thing other than how fuzzy my head still is. Not sure if its a negative on the water or the fact we had ball games the last 2 nights and it's Friday and I'm dragging.
"*I question why IBOs feel the need to defend ANYTHING on a blog to people they don't know."
Does this random thought include yourself and the need you have felt to defend perfect water claims?
"And the critics blame the opportunity, rather than the IBOs who maybe never should have been registered in the first place."
Actually there are many critics including myself who have never blamed the opportunity but rather misleading uplines who pimp their downlines dreams while lining their own pockets. Perhaps if you could actually listen to someone with another point of view you would know that.
"There's a reason why the majority of Platinums and above were self-employed/business owners BEFORE they were IBOs. Different mindset."
Can you prove this? Because most every Platinum and above I have ever known or heard talked about working a J-O-B. I am betting there are many who can agree with me on that.
"*I net, after expenses, about a grand a month from Quixtar--actual money deposited in my account from the Quixtar Corporation."
I think this statement pretty much says it all. You see the actual money that is deposited by Quixtar is considered gross income not net. Quixtar does not deduct your expenses for you, that is your job as the "business owner".
"*In our other businesses, some of the "everyday expenses" which are tax deductable are: mobile phone, ISP, laptop, publications to periodicals I'd subscribe to anyway."
What I will never understand is why IBOs look at business tax breaks as a benefit? The main goal should simply be profit, and many IBOs businesses wouldn't qualify as a business anyway. Anyone who looks will see that unless a profit is being made over a certain period of time the business could be ruled a hobby and therefore making many deductions illegal to take.
"I'm convicted that my time here is not well spent."
Who "convicted" you of this?
Jane Says:
*Example of how business owners think regarding reducing one's tax burden: I went on a biz trip (not this biz). My husband wanted to come with because the location was outstanding. The plane ticket was $1,000. He booked a "gig" (he's NOT a musician)out there in order to make the plane ticket a tax deduction. He was paid $1,200 for the gig, showed $1,000 as a tax-deduction for the airline ticket, netted $200, paid taxes on $200 (not $1,200) and we had a lovely mini-vacation.
Meh Says:
So at best you netted .38 * 1000 = $380 (Federal).
from the fed. Yet spent $1,200.
I won't go into deciding whether a personal business is a legitamate effort or not, as the IRS will do so if they believe your returns warrant it.
Just hope they don't see what you just posted as it would make it obvious to a reasonable official that the trip in question was not business related.
Jane,
I also find it extremely odd that you won't post a P/L. But yet, will gladly explain your aggresive tax strategy online.
Jane says..."*Example of how business owners think regarding reducing one's tax burden: I went on a biz trip (not this biz). My husband wanted to come with because the location was outstanding. The plane ticket was $1,000. He booked a "gig" (he's NOT a musician)out there in order to make the plane ticket a tax deduction. He was paid $1,200 for the gig, showed $1,000 as a tax-deduction for the airline ticket, netted $200, paid taxes on $200 (not $1,200) and we had a lovely mini-vacation."
Sorry Jane, but ETHICAL business owners call this blurring the ethics. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make you profitable and certainly doesn't demonstrate any difference in thinking as an employee or a business owner.
Jane offers this gem of wisdom concerning income tax avoidance (or in this case, evasion)...
*Example of how business owners think regarding reducing one's tax burden: I went on a biz trip (not this biz). My husband wanted to come with because the location was outstanding. The plane ticket was $1,000. He booked a "gig" (he's NOT a musician)out there in order to make the plane ticket a tax deduction. He was paid $1,200 for the gig, showed $1,000 as a tax-deduction for the airline ticket, netted $200, paid taxes on $200 (not $1,200) and we had a lovely mini-vacation.
You do know that this is not technically legal, don't you? In order to deduct the cost of the ticket, the PRIMARY PURPOSE of the trip has to be to conduct business. You've already admitted that the primary purpose was pleasure, and your husband tacked on some business to deduct the costs.
Facts considered on audit include (but are no limited to) the destination itself (are you going to North Dakota, or Hawaii?), the amount of time spent on business activity vs the amount of time spent at the destination, and the amount of income generated by the business activity. Generally, none of these is indicative, in itself, of the purpose of the trip, but would be taken as a whole by the examiner to determine the legitimacy of the deduction.
You need to get a CPA. As do most IBOs who spout off about their "tax deductions" and "business-owner mindset" here. And don't get one recommended by your upline, find a local, reputable firm.
I find it funny people’s responses to the idea of spending your money on your life FIRST, and then paying taxes, rather than paying taxes and THEN spending your money on your life.
This is a really big distinction between business owners and employees.
###
The comment about what’s the primary purpose for a trip is laughable. Why do you think Vegas, Cancun, Atlantis, (for the Amway biz--Peter Island, Hawaii, as well as the cool places for Achievers), etc. are top places for many corporate business conferences?
I’m sure the play time at these places was the main reason the participates go, and not the seminars and meetings.
###
I don’t get the math of $380 for the Feds. Not knowing every detail of someone’s tax return—like their deductions on their Schedule C, deductions on their Schedule A, number of dependants they are claiming, Earned Child Tax Credit, etc. etc., etc.—you can’t say what percentage (what tax bracket) they are in.
Maybe people are so familiar with a 1040EZ, that they don’t see all the other deductions on a 1040 (and all the Schedules that can go with it).
###
With business ownership, there are some burdens that employees do not have—like filing a Schedule SE for FICA taxes.
Employees have 7.65% taken out of their paychecks. And your employer pays the other 7.65%.
So self-employed people/small business/sole proprietorships pay a total of 15.3% (both employee and employer portions).
Reducing as much of their revenue on their Schedule C is a goal, since one pays this Social Security/Medicare tax on the *bottom line profit*.
###
A CPA is one kind of an accountant. All CPAs are accountants, but not all accountants are CPAs. Depending on one’s tax needs, a CPA may be more than one needs—and a CPA is pricier than a non-CPA.
I’d prefer to take advice from someone who’s in the same industry as me regarding who they use for their business—for taxes and otherwise. I’d seek their input, of course using discernment and not blindly listening to them, but clearly having an accountant who knows a particular industry (the Amway biz or otherwise) makes more sense than one who doesn’t, IMO.
I don't have anything more to say then that I thought the perfect water was BS so I let someone do the test on me and now I know it's true. I don't have any clue as to what's in it or if it's safe but the stuff works.
trolling the internet for something to read. what an incredible waste of time.
The internet really is the bathroom wall of society.
I'm an IBO, mostly just messing with the business. But, man, you people here are some of the most negative people. Why do you care so much? So you can save someone? From what?
Get a hobby, talk to your wife or kids or parents.Or try going to bed. And why does anyone care about this TRUTH guy's opinion anyway. Maybe he should be the one getting a life.
Debbie,
Are you seriously asking why someone cares about outrageous claims being made about a product and only using some bogus scam test as their proof?
Your right, we should just let companies and sales people make whatever claims they want to and not be held accountable.
Truth:
Have you tried the water?
To Nigel T:
As I said:
Recouped $380 AT BEST. using the top tax bracket for an individual of 38%.
Nigel.
No I have not. Interestingly enough though I have tried the same "test" with people using regular old tap water and wouldn't you know it they had the exact same results.
Debbie said: trolling the internet for something to read. what an incredible waste of time.
The internet really is the bathroom wall of society.
Joe says: Like thisbiznow.com
IBOAI.com, quixtar.com?
Nigel, Jane, Susie,
I tried to get upline to do the tests with 7 or 8 people. But I wanted him to give half the people "perfect water" and half the people water from the tap. He wouldn't do it. They are not taught to do it this way which would prove if perfect water works any differently than regular water. I tried it with some friends with plain old tap water (just told them it was different). Guess what, using the same technique with "tap water" people responded the exact same way. Try to do a test with half the people using perfect water & half using regular water (don't let them know who has what). You will find the results are about identical. My conclusion. Perfect water is no more perfect than tap water. The difference is not in the water; it is in what people are told about the water. It is kind of like IBOs being "told" if they keep listening to the CDs & attending the functions they will surely succeed because it is a "proven system of success". Seriously, do your demonstration with half perfect water & half tap; you will see thee people won't be able to tell the difference of who got waht. As for me, the tap water is pennies a bottle and the perfect water is dollars a bottle.
Eric,
Sorry I didn't reply to your post about deductions - I've been away the past few days.
I got audited by the state I was living in at the time and was lucky only to get a penatly and interest for taking "life expenses" as deductions.
I spoke to a tax professional when the audit was happening (which is my fault I didn't and just trusted upline advice) and they said the state was in the right, I was wrong. Somehow I got a pass from the IRS, but my sponsor and q-12 didn't. If you think I am lying - you're free to do that.
The other cases have already been mentioned above.
Free From Q*
Proud USAF and Critic
Why is everyone bashing this water? Why not bash Smartwater? Nearly everyone who has tried it agrees that it works, it's only those who haven't tried it bashing it. What's the big deal... It's just water. Why don't you go argue about something that matters like genocide in Darfur or our country's economy, not water that gives IBO's success that you people clearly don't have. If this water wasn't a good thing, then I would not have an extra 15,000 P.V. and be making $5,000 per month.
Meh:
I think in terms of reducing my tax burden, not recouping money. There's a difference.
###
Truth:
If you haven't tried the water, how do you know if it's the "exact" same results?
It's one thing to hear about something and/or see it on video. It's a whole different deal to experience it yourself.
That's all I'm sayin'.
Nigel writes: "I’d prefer to take advice from someone who’s in the same industry as me regarding who they use for their business—for taxes and otherwise. I’d seek their input, of course using discernment and not blindly listening to them, but clearly having an accountant who knows a particular industry (the Amway biz or otherwise) makes more sense than one who doesn’t, IMO."
Funny, it's this very practice that the Tax Court decided was a factor in ruling against the various IBO/distributors - failure to seek advice from 'the outside'.
A CPA has a more education and has passed an exam which encompasses complex tax law. You could hire an EA, whose education can range widely, but who also passed an exam ecompassing exclusively tax law. I'd think that you can find a certified professional who has experience with the direct selling industry.
Or you can hire the "accountant" recommended by your upline who "really knows what he's doing". Unknown education and unknown other qualifications, but "he works with lots of IBOs."
DH was sold a "terrific accountant who does all the local IBOs taxes" by his upline. He had all kinds of recommendations that are not supported by the IRC or any Tax Court cases.
"It's one thing to hear about something and/or see it on video. It's a whole different deal to experience it yourself."
You can't be serious? What is so different? The video shows people stretch farther, and shows them stay straight on the second tip, are you now pushing to somehow get us to believe that you just feel different all over. Do you develop superpowers as well?
Answer this for me, why can't most IBOs just say "Hey, it's a great bottle of water, try one for yourself." and leave it at that?
No, they have to do bogus tests on stage and blow things way out of proportion. For some reason there is this need to make people believe that their products have some unbelievable quality that has never before been discovered in a product.
This is how I remember the XS craze while I was an IBO. All of this hype about athletes and B12 shots at the olympics and blah, blah, blah. I never sold one can with all that BS. But when I just told someone it was a great energy drink with different flavors and didn't load you up with sugar I could actually sell cases to people.
The most incredible thing about perfect water is the price.
John:
My upline *had* us to the demos with Smart Water and Penta.
Different strokes for different folks.
BTW, those other waters did not have the same effect as the Perfect Water. Not even close.
####
Truth:
There are IBOs who are saying "Try it, it's a great bottle of water."
In regards to selling technigues:
If you think that selling XS based on athletes and B12 shots is a bunch of B.S., then that selling approach ain't gonna work for you.
But, if you are an athlete, or train athletes, then this selling approach might work.
Different strokes for different folks.
###
Truth:
"You can't be serious? What is so different?"
Well, do you think there is a difference between watching a video of sexual intercourse versus engaging in sexual intercourse yourself?
Nigel T:
"Meh:
I think in terms of reducing my tax burden, not recouping money. There's a difference."
Fair enough. To each his own I guess.
PW -
This water is even more INCREDIBLE than just curing MS and providing super-powers: you can already make $5,000 without even getting a single drop shipped from Quixtar - seeing as it's not available until the end of this month.
Congratulations on buying a swimming pool worth of water without seeing a drop of it.
John -
Thank you for at least doing the 'tap-water' test and posting the results.
Actually, you just opened up a completely new market: half-priced magic water. Put your tap-water into old jugs for pennies and sell it to IBOs for 1/2 the price of 'magic water.' IBOs can put a 50% mark-up on it and still be cheaper than 'magic water' and make a killing...all while keeping their 'proven' benefits of the 'tip-test.'
Whatever happend to XS - the last great product that was going to launch everyone to greatness? At least that was a real product, and not just a scam in a bottle.
Boy, was I surprised when my husband had 20 cases of this "miracle water" delivered to our house. I guess that is where the $1,000. was spent. He is a very valiant IBO. Quixtar could sell him bottled prespiration. He believes everything he is told by them.
Porkchopjim said: ...without even getting a single drop shipped from Quixtar - seeing as it's not available until the end of this month.
Wrong.
The first 4 Million bottles which were ordered during the Advanced Order period (starting March 19th)have shipped.
It's the water ordered after it started shipping (April 28th) that is on back order.
Biggest product launch in the Corp's history. Bigger than XS was.
The iboaiblog has some details...
http://www.iboaiblog.com/my_weblog/2008/05/your-enthusiasm.html#comments
Oh - my mistake! It's a back-order problem, with Amway not realizing how starved their consumers (excuse me, IBOs) are for products to buy in order to get rich.
Biggest product launch in the Corp's history. Bigger than XS was.
Maybe your shipment was defective, or as stated above, it doesn't help with reading comprehension. Your IBOAI reference only has IBOs that say the 'rumor' is that it's the biggest product launch in history...along with someone pointing out that they had the same problems with XS being all hyped up and IBOs buying so much of it that it was also on back-order.
I know you're all excited and counting the money you are sure to make...but y'all might have missed the bottled water revolution - just like the energy drink that didn't seem to do the job. All the greens are miffed that you have to put it in plastic and ship it all over the place in big stinky trucks when you can just go to the faucet.
More top-notch market research by a company famous for it!
Ok, I had a co-worker breal out a bottle of perfect water. Apparently her daughter is in quixtar ane gave her a case of the stuff. I asked to try the water and I drank about 4 ounces.
Guess what? It's water. No extra flexibility, I could not leap tall buildings in a single bound, I could not see through the walls.
As for water, it was as good as any other bottled water, but it did not deliver any of the things that some IBOs are promoting.
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/oxyscams.html
Unless you have gills, it's just an expensive burp!
Oxygenated water (also known as "superoxygenated" water) is offered at hundreds of Web sites. I highly recommend it if you happen to be a fish, but if you have lungs that breathe air, then forget about it! All water that has been exposed to the air is "oxygenated" to a small extent— about 8 milligrams of O2 per liter of water at room temperature— and this can be increased by pressurizing the water with oxygen gas; each additional atmosphere of oxygen pressure pumps an additional 40 mg into each liter. But what happens when you open the bottle? That's right, the extra oxygen goes right back out— but not immediately, so by drinking oxygenated water, you can still take a bit more oxygen into your stomach.
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/aa022802a.htm
The bottom line is that there is no scientific evidence to support that drinking super oxygenated water increases the amount of oxygen in the blood stream.
Porkchop,
If you dont believe me about the 4 million bottles or that it's the biggest advanced ordered product in the Company's history, call the Corp and ask them yourself. 800-253-6500
And while you're at it, see if you can get someone to explain the term "cannibalisation" and what the stats are on the water to prove that the majority of the water is going to customers as the end-user and not IBOs.
As far as XS Energy Drink, that product is still going strong--with 11 different flavors and 3 non-caff options.
Just grew by 1 million cases (without TEAM, I might add)in the last 12 months. That stat is also straight from the Corp. So you can ask them to confirm those numbers when you call them.
But you won't call them, will you Pork, cause you aren't about the truth, are you.
Nah, didn't think so.
Oh yes, Quixtar is a cult. I have been around for over 20 years, and I have finally come to my senses. Quixtar wouldn't change their compensation plan, nor their practices. yet, they continue to "convince" people they have high quality products. Lets see some FDA proof?
Fun with math!
At 4M bottles as the ‘biggest/largest’ launch in Amway history – that’s a GRAND total of: 167,000 orders for water. Perhaps if you used ‘ounces’ instead – it would look even better!
No need for me to call the Corp – it’s again a comprehension problem on your part.
1M case increase for XS: that’s an increase of 3 cases per IBO per year. Period.
How many cases of XS were ordered for the launch? Granted, no one claimed that XS cured MS, so I wouldn’t expect such miraculous results.
Greatest new Amway product: water. Hey, with numbers like you just showed me, you’ll be a bazillionare in no time!
But, you won’t, because you’re just an Amway salesman who gets impressed by big numbers because you don’t understand them.
Pork Chop,
I don't understand numbers?
167,000 cases is not impressive?
XS growing by a million cases WITH A THIRD OF IBOs SAYING BYE-BYE WITH THE TEAM DRAMA is not impressive?
You taking the total number of sales, and dividing it by all IBOs (or half, really) is retarded, when you know full well that not all IBOs consume or sell XS. Most IBOs (Independant Business Owners) are in name only. So doing your math that way is ignorant.
I very much understand numbers, more than you will ever comprehend.
"Amway Salesman"? Is that supposed to hurt my feelings?
You comment proves my point that you are not interested in the truth. Just lookin' to pick a fight.
Whatever.
Actually 167,000 orders is not impressive considering the vast majority (I would guess 150,000) were orders done by IBOs for themselves, or their "business" and were not sold to customers. Take away all orders not sold to customers and I bet that number gets very unimpressive very quick.
167,000 cases for a brand new 'miracle' product is not impressive at all.
Now - fun with numbers - were 1/3 of all IBOs part of TEAM and they left, or did 1/3 of TEAM IBOs leave? My best estimate was that TEAM was about 15-20% of IBOs - taken from Woodward's court documents on what his business level was. Or - did 1/3 of IBOs leave because of TEAM? Given that the number of IBOs that leave the business each year has been about equal to the number that join - thus stagnation in sales as IBOs are the ones who buy and consume the over-majority of Amway products...blaming and claiming a 1/3 loss due to TEAM and then crowing about how great things turned out is a little simplistic, isn't it?
1M cases growth in XS is - even using your twisted math - a grand total of about 1 case a month increase per 'real business owner'. Man, I can see why you're excited!
Still: WHO drinks most of the XS? Customers, or IBOs? Selling products to 'end consumers' only counts for Amway. For IBOs - they're still selling products to themselves. And that's the truth.
I have a co-worker who drinks XS and recently had soem perfect water. Her daughter gives her the stuff for free.
Does that count as retail sales?
LOVE THE WATER! CHECK OUT WHAT AMAZON's Food Review Site had to say!!!!
Aldenteblog.com
Perhaps next time you should put in the complete link since you have to scroll down quite a bit to find the article. Also, it is a review, nothing more. They did the same stupid test and got the same results I got with regular tap water.
I have been reading about this perfect water. Kangen water is the most benifical substance that you can put into your body
I just saw some of the videos on youtube.. it's halirious cause they actually make it sound like we go to bootcamp for tip testing!! lol.. OMG! I've only been an IBO for a couple of weeks and no one ever told me there was a bootcamp for tip testing!! I'm sold on the product cause of the affect it has had on me!! LOL!! you people who have never tried it, try it! Have other people try it! If we can send astronauts to the moon, perform heart transplants and blood tranfusions whos to say this doesn't work.. LOL to the critics... this is hilarious!! Technology didn't get where it is with closed minds! Someone must be really angry with Quixtar/Amway. I don't know I'm new!! I just know it works for me and the people I know have tried it, I'm not talking about the tip test, no one told me there was a bootcamp!! and it would be fun to learn how to tip a cow too!! LOL!! LOL!! LOL!! LOL!! ROLF!!!!!!!
This being the first "blog"I have ever read, I found it most interesting but not enlightening. having been an Amway IBO, then Quixtar IBO, and now back to Amway Global, I feel qualified to comment as follows:
The nonsense back and forth about Perfect Water is just that, nonsense! Having been exposed to Chiropractic, massage therapy, accupuncture and many years of coaching many sports, I can truly attest to one thing. One's perception becomes one's reality until proven otherwise. Although we, in theory are all the same, the manner in which we react or benefit from virtually any product or treatment can vary greatly from one individual to the next. And yes, the Placebo effect is powerful in many individuals, so belief is an important factor in any healing or health benefit. This does not make a product good or bad. It is only through individual, personal use that benefits, negligible or fantastic, can be determined.
The corporation clearly warns all IBOs to be aware of all outrageous claims and to only use claims that the corporation makes, based on factual research. However, that said, personal testimony is still valid, provided it is truthful. There is no honour amongst thieves and my experience has been fortunate in that our upline have always demonstrated absolute integrity and a desire to help us to succeed. It is true that other lines of sponsorship have not been as fortunate as greed so often raises its ugly head. But this would be true in most fields of endeavor.
I always see the glass as half full not half empty and that has improved my Amway/Quixtar experience immensely. Although we have, right from the start, made more money than we have invested, there are many other positive benefits of this association that transcend making more money. It is unfortunate that the critics tend to be very narrow minded and focus on all of the negatives rather than seek to help others to benefit from their experience. Had I chosen to see the negatives, I would never have stayed in teaching for thirty years nor would my marriage have lasted almost half a century(so far!)
There are thirty thousand children under the age of five that die every day in our world. In most cases, these deaths are avoidable. I would encourage Truth, Joe Cool, and the rest of their ilk to invest less time in trying to dissuade Amway IBOs and try to contribute to the solution of some of the real challenges of the world.
Thanks for the opportunity to contribute these thoughts.
Jim
To myty:
I would get out of that as fast as I can. Once they get you in bondage and get the mind control going on you, it is too late. You probably say, that won't happen to me, but they have a way of doing it to you. Once they have you brainwashed, you don't even think sensably. You listen to those cds every single day and go to the conferences and participate in their chanting and praising your almighty leaders, and you are caught up, just like that. When you say someone must really be angry, make that millions that have been caught up in this cult and lost families, homes, money, had to claim bankruptcy and so on.
Jim G,
Unfortunately a narrow-mind is one that
thinks like you. Somehow you think that because I don't paint Quixtar as the greatest in the world that I only focus on the negative.
The issues that I have wrote about on here have been acknowledged by many who write for Quixtar themselves. Perhaps you should open your mind to the idea that your business has issues that need to be corrected.
I also find it pretty disturbing that you would use the deaths of young children to continue your agenda of wrongly assuming about those you don't agree with. You don't have the first clue what people on this blog do with their time, but you assume the worst anyway. You tell me if you don't find that to be pretty narrow thinking?
Jum G said: There are thirty thousand children under the age of five that die every day in our world. In most cases, these deaths are avoidable. I would encourage Truth, Joe Cool, and the rest of their ilk to invest less time in trying to dissuade Amway IBOs and try to contribute to the solution of some of the real challenges of the world.
Joe says: What can a blogger, pro or anti quixtar do to save children dying in another part of the world? Are IBOs doing anything to help this?
For your information, I do volunteer work regularly which helps fund missions to accomplish what you talk about. We are in particular focusing on China right now.
What is wrong with exposing a scam that harms many people in the US financially? If the kingpins ever had their veil of secrecy removed, we would simply see IBOs working their jobs hard to fund the diamond's lifestyle.
Prove me wrong if you can.
Truth,
Jim G is giving his experience, just like all the ex-IBOs have given theirs.
You have claimed that you are fair and open-minded, and yet all I've seen from you (at least in the last few months I've been around)is someone who continually puts down those who are happy IBOs.
JimG clearly acknowledges that there are "bad" uplines out there. And he states that his is not one of them.
Is it so hard to accept that not every Diamond is some greedy bastard who's just looking to get in to your pockets via the sale of BSMs?
Are IBOs who have truly positive experiences welcome in this conversation?
It's true: You and Joecool and on and on have had crappy experiences. Okay. I've had some pretty crappy expereinces in my life. I've had some people really mess me over. But to devote a blog--particually for some critics. of something that happened a decade ago--as some kind of crusade about it, is baffling to me.
Why are you obsessed with the Amway Global/Quixtar business? Some critics spend more time on this biz than IBOs do! LOL.
Is this just a fascinating pastime for you (and when I say "you" I'm talking to all of the negative bloggers/commentors, not just Truth), or are you on a mission to save the world from the Lying Cowardly Kingpins like dear ol' Tex?
Nigel,
Are you really expecting me to believe that Jim ONLY came and gave his experience? If you really believe that you need to read it again and you also need to learn what a real open mind is.
From what I read I was responding to his accusation that I focus on only the negative and am narrow-minded. But please by all means show me where I am putting anyone down, so I can respond to your accusation.
In your few months I have to wonder how much you have really read on this blog. Considering the fact that I have praised moves by Quixtar to try and eliminate the abuse by uplines in this business. Don't lump anyone on this blog in with the likes of Tex. If that is your view of those who are critical on this blog then I am certain that you have not done your homework or read beyond a few posts.
Nigel,
What uplines have produced "happy IBOs"? Does happy mean they are profiting or does that mean they are so indoctrinated that they smile ear to ear even when they are recording losses month after month following the system.
The abusive diamonds who were on top of the pyramid in my days are still there, and apparently still teaching the same stuff.
In case you haven't noticed, IBOs who post civil and respectfully are treated the same way.
By the way, Nigel, this thread was started because of the bogus claims many IBOs are making about "perfect water". Just because they're happy doesn't mean they're truthful.
By the way, are IBOs still buzzing about miracle, I mean perfect water?
Before i became an IBO myself i was skepticle. However i am a dancer, ballet, hip hop, jazz etc. i started to drink the water before my classes started an i notice my balance seemed to improve doing piroutes and other moves. this water is amazing even though it is expensive. And in FYI to those who believe this to be a pyrimid it is not, i know the richest man in spokane and i can tell you now he is not profeting off of me in anyway, he wants to help me grow to achieve my goals and to be able to be more wealthy than him. it is an amazing oportunity for those who are ready for something like this. Maybe in the past people have abused the rules and that is how they have gotten this bad rep. Also it is important to know that amway is affiliated with different companies like world wide dream builders and other affiliates that may not always go along with amway rules. So i can tell you what i know from experience i am not here to judge you on your thoughts or comments. i dont mean to offend anyone i just wanted to enlighten all of you, so thank you for reading this :)
I have seen the test many times in person. I have had it done to me. I watched for parlor tricks like someone leaning into me or pulling me in a slightly different way each time.
THere are plenty of placebo tests out there where the test is done over and over with unmarked cups of water and the person can't stand up til they drink the real thing.
ANd a little common sense here tells us why the claims came down. Go into any local vitamin store. Read the label. None of them make claims they just say what they are and you have to study to find out what the vitamin does. Per the FDA nothing can claim to diagnose treat or cure a disease that isn't a drug. Vitamin C cured scurvey in old times but to print on the bottle (can cure scurvey) would be illegal. The tip test works. There is more than enough proof and placebos to blast your theory AND the company is being smart by removing claims and letting people tell others about their own experiences in a one on one basis. To me its smart. I only had to try the water once and have it tried on my wife once. Then my wife and I took turns tip testing each other because we know we'll be honest to each other and not use tricks. Worked for us. Sorry
Posted by: Dusty | April 13, 2008 7:57 PM