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January 22, 2008
Price vs. Value
By Truth in Quixtar
There has been quite a fuss lately over the prices of Quixtar products. Of course this has always been an issue, but has been put more in focus lately because of the whole Quixtar v. TEAM mess. The simple arguments are that Amway/Quixtar prices are too high, and of course the common theme for the defense is that the value of the product justifies the high prices.
Personally I can see both sides of this debate. I don't necessarily agree 100% with either side in this debate, but I think both sides make some pretty valid points. I was over on the Ada-Tudes blog and was reading the post by Ray Alexander titled "Not Wal-Mart and Never Want to Be". While reading this post and many of the comments that were left I got to thinking about a seminar I attended with my wife when she was an owner of a vacuum sales office.
After leaving Quixtar my wife started selling vacuums to make some extra money. Well she became quite good at it and eventually was asked to open her own office and manage dealers. She has since closed up her office and moved on to other things, but I will always remember this one speaker at a seminar that she invited me to go along to. I would also like to point out as a side note that this seminar was 100% free, even the lunch they provided.
The feature speaker was the vice-president of the company who manufactured the vacuums. He talked about selling value instead of a vacuum. That was a big topic since the dealers were selling a vacuum that costed $1800. His example showed that throughout the demonstration of the product you were building value, and the objective was to build more then $1800 worth of value before the demonstration was over. If a salesperson could do that they would meet less resistance from the customer when it came time to close the sale. In a nutshell he was saying to show the customer why the product is worth the price.
To demonstrate what he meant he pulled out a $100 bill and asked who would be willing to give him $10 for his $100 bill. Obviously everyone in the room would do what they had to in order to give him $10 for $100. That pretty much drove the point home. If a salesperson could build up $3000 worth of value in the product, closing the sale at $1800 was going to be easier.
So if you have read this far you are probably asking what this has to do with Quixtar. Well, can Quixtar products be built up in their value enough to be sold at their current prices? I mean let's face it, just telling a customer that the value of your product is superior isn't really going to get you far. Would retailing numbers look better if IBOs were better informed about the products so that they could build the value in them? Sometimes I think that is what Amway/Quixtar is trying to do with all the training that they are releasing via the web. So I see two sides to this entire argument and I guess it comes down to one question. Are the prices too high, or are IBOs just not able to build the value in the product before they try and sell it?
Comments
If the IBOs truly understand what they are selling, they can retail.
I wonder how many IBOs have ever attended Expo (or whatever the annual event hosted by Amway is called now)??? It's a product-information-fest; a place to try new items and learn more about existing products.
I suspect that most AMOs discouraged attending the Corporate event, because it was free, fun, and educational. Kind of set the mark too high for most AMO "functions"....LOL!!!
Deb
Honestly Truth, the amount of PV that an IBO gets on those products is ridiculous. The system is rigged in such a way that you have to make tremendous sales to even make money in Quixtar PV checks. Most of the other companies that offer similar opportunities have a dollar-to-PV/BP/BV ratio of 1:1.25 or 1:1.50. Meaning that more value is given to the money that customers put into purchasing the products. I completely agree with what that VP was saying about providing more value than the price. Unfortunately, most folks just can't find the value in Quixtar products to pay the exorbant prices. What Amway needs to do is to give more PV to those products such as Double-X so that someone can make money off of a sale of Double-X right off the bat, rather than attempting the retail sale. Most folks in the BWW/Gala team sold products at their own cost, meaning they sold it at the 30% marked down price. Hence, they made no personal profit on that one sale. If they really wanted to encourage the downline to start retailing more, then increase the amount of PV and make it so that more is awarded for 100 PV done rather than just $8.00-12.00. That does no credit to the amount of sales revenue an IBO brings it at 100 PV, which actually ends up being MORE than just $250. I haven't been on the website for about a month, so I don't know if they have changed some of the pricing and compensation structure. I can only talk about my experience in Quixtar. If you know of any positive changes they are making to make 100 PV more profitable for the new IBO or any other positive changes that will be a REAL impact on the new person, then please share.
Truth,
To answer your question, yes. Any IBO can demonstrate the value of their product to sell it, even the high priced HEPA filters (as someone previously mentioned).
The problem, as I see it, is not the high prices, but the extremely low mark-up. What is the IBO cost vs. the retail cost for vitamins? 20%? So ballpark $17 per pack of vitamins in profit if sold at retail? That's pennies. What about the cleaners? How many product demonstrations do you have to do with a box of SA8 in order to make $100 in profit? It isn't worth it. Your vacuum cleaners are a very different example due to the fact the profit margins make it much more lucrative to sell.
Maybe someone else can answer this question better than I can, but would Quixtar rules prevent IBO's from using the selling techniques that the vacuum cleaner sales people use? I'm guessing your wife sold Rainbow Vacuums. The method for generating leads that I've seen those sales people use involve door to door flyers, product expos, home & garden shows, etc. Are IBO's allowed to do any of that?
Once again a great post that sum's up the key issue.
Some products have excellent value. Take nutrilite, as a biochemist I have personally researched this brand/line and come to the conclusion that in general there is huge value at a high end price. And so if you are in quaility demand not quantity demand it is a great choice. Over the last few years I think that Nutrilite has now started to try and communicate this, however there is a long way to go til the average IBO understands where and what the value is.
My wife tells me that this is the same for Artisty - she sold it very successfully for a season. Interesting enough a lot of the training in this area came from networking organization not Amway.
Other products - thinking homecare here. Don't really add that much value to the customer, and yet the price-per-use sometimes (not always) is much higher than competition. Historically aka 50 years ago SA8, LOC etc were amazing and revolutionary products, so did add value. Now thinks have changed, the value proposition has significantly altered yet the price seems to have remained high.
To me the core issues is that because people are "encouraged" to purchase all of the products, not just the products that have value. This means that products that are not retailable are still turned over, so the company still has them. If people retailed most of there volume then the products that are not retailable would soon disappear of the list. From Amway's point of view if product is turning over they will stock it. So it all comes back to lack of retailing, and this flows back into the profitability of IBO's. Amazing how all thoughts all lead back to the core issue.
I do also think that a higher level of market up is needed on products... at least 50%. But this is a complete another discussion.
Good post, but there is another part of the equation missing besides just selling value above price. And that's to know your audience. A $1,800 vaccuum might be the best in the world, but I'm never going to spend the money on one because the $100 one at Wal-Mart works good enough for me.
With Amway, their marketing scheme, if you call it that, often leads to customers they shouldn't be targetting. They sell the dream which attracts, in general, younger people with less money to spend. To use the vaccuum analogy, who is more likely to spend $1,800 on one? Newlywed couple just out of college, or couple with 3 kids in their late 40s? With any premium product, such as the vaccuum or Amway products, identifying the niche is very important.
On the flip side, which above couple is more willing to buy the dream? The ones just out of college thinking about working for the next 40 years at their current job, or the ones in their mid-40's, already established in their careers, and already looking ahead towards retirement?
The end result with Amway is with selling the dream and not the product you get the wrong customer, and they end up leaving, usually within a year or two, and never buy the products again. And while there were few calls to stop this, the churn and burn continued for years, because there were always enough recruits willing to buy the dream to replace those who had quit.
Great points dmm. I agree with the vaccuum analogy. The 6 month supply of Centrum multi vitamins for $13.99 works fine for me, compared to the $60, 1 month supply, of Double X vitamins.
I don't need SA8 detergent at .61/load compared to Tide at .23/load.
Also, you're right on the money about the "prospects" or "clients" IBO's target. Who is more likely to be able to afford $60 vitamins or $50 detergent? Not the 18 year college freshman, who has enough expenses to worry about, but rather the 45 year old with a house, car and family.
Yet IBO's are taught to target young people because they're "motivated". Really it's not because their motivated but because, they're naive and impressionable. They really don't have direction yet and are not set in their ways, where as, a 45 year old guy with a wife, children, career, house and car has his priorities in order and he's pretty much set in his ways.
Also, I think someone in their 40's has a much better grasp on reality and life than a kid fresh out of high school
dmm: Good post, but there is another part of the equation missing besides just selling value above price. And that's to know your audience. A $1,800 vaccuum might be the best in the world, but I'm never going to spend the money on one because the $100 one at Wal-Mart works good enough for me.
Tina: You do have a point. I have purchased vacuum's for more than $300 but found it much worse than a vacuum I purchased at a disount store (like Walmart or Target) for a fourth of that.
dmm: With Amway, their marketing scheme, if you call it that, often leads to customers they shouldn't be targetting. They sell the dream which attracts, in general, younger people with less money to spend. To use the vaccuum analogy, who is more likely to spend $1,800 on one? Newlywed couple just out of college, or couple with 3 kids in their late 40s? With any premium product, such as the vaccuum or Amway products, identifying the niche is very important.
On the flip side, which above couple is more willing to buy the dream? The ones just out of college thinking about working for the next 40 years at their current job, or the ones in their mid-40's, already established in their careers, and already looking ahead towards retirement?
Tina: I do see where you're trying to go with this point. However, I would have to disagree in that 20 year old's tend to feel invincible. They tend to think that the corporate firings, etc. won't happen to them. They're still "fired up" about their future career.
However, the 40-somethings (of which I am one) are seeing the reality of their situation(s). Most of them have already faced being fired (laid off). They've seen their 401K or "pension" plan being altered or taken away altogether. They've been paying attention to the news and are aware of what's happening to our economy as well as the future of social security & medicare. Because of that, they are in a sense, being "forced" to look at realistic alternatives. We introduce them to one of many options. One we believe in.
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Big Dog: Great points dmm. I agree with the vaccuum analogy. The 6 month supply of Centrum multi vitamins for $13.99 works fine for me, compared to the $60, 1 month supply, of Double X vitamins.
I don't need SA8 detergent at .61/load compared to Tide at .23/load.
Tina: Again, I know where you're going with this point Big Dog. However, what you seem to miss is that you would not, and should not, be our target market for most of our product line. Why? Because we target people who care about what goes into their bodies and what goes on their skin. I don't mean to be rude. Just truthful. If people would rather save a few bucks and in the process, put sugar & preservatives & artificial colorings into their system....well.....that's their choice. Once I know that, I don't waste my time (or samples) on them anymore. I have a girlfriend who is well aware of our drink options yet she continues to choose her diet coke every day. And she's a former nurse! She should know better! But it would be like me hitting my head against a brick wall to try to talk to her further about it. She even lets her kid drink pop on a regular basis. I like her. She's a kind & generous person. But there are many many things we see very differently.
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I just want to ask a favor of all of you. Please please please educate yourselves about all the changes. There are Product Expo's now offered before every "function". They are offered by what you guys like to refer to as the "AMO's".
Also, there are new product lines that have been being advertised nationally. Once of them is Simply Nutrilite. This is a much less expensive product line, but still the high quality of Nutrilite. For example, there are now Men's supplement packs and Women's supplement packs. They are priced at less than $25.00 per month! That's less than a buck a day for the highest quality supplements that money can buy.
Simply Nutrilite also offers Twist Tubes which are pure organic liquid supplements that you pour into a 16+oz. bottle of water. They retail for less than .50 per tube. I tend to refill my bottles of water out of my fridge so I don't have to pay $3.00 every time I want a bottle of water. So, that means I pay .50 - $1.00 for a 32 oz. bottle of VITAMIN water! Beat that!
We also now offer Artistry Essentials. Again, it's the high quality offered by Artistry only in a less expensive line. For example, the hydrating skin care system that contains cleanser, toner & moisturizer is only $33.60 and is meant to last 1 1/2 - 2 months!
I believe the above examples speak directly to much higher value versus associated price.
Please check out the latest. I do believe they're making really great changes. I'm excited about them.
Thanks for "listening".
That's good you are happy with the products Tina.
Are you going to be able to achieve that lifestyle portrayed in the "Profiles of Success" by moving that much of it? You'll find that's what bothers people.
I personally think the vitamins are overpriced, even the new ones, and nobody has been able to show me why the cost produces more value.
I was not aware that the product expos were before every function. I will be clarifying that with Amway. I doubt that was any of the "leader's" idea.
After all, these are the same leaders that were simply providing motivation to help you with your business. It made them MORE than the product movement in some cases, Amway has admitted that.
Please please please educate YOURSELF about where this business has been, and what it took to slowing start changing. Check lawsuits, check previous IBO's, find out why many high level "leaders" have left the business.
While you're at it, maybe you could find out why the prices in the UK were slashed dramatically when the government stepped in with their investigation. Maybe you could find out why it's not happening here.
I don't see what is realistic about the AMO systems. If the products and how to market them successfully were the only thing being taught at the so-called training sessions, then yes maybe. But unfortunately the AMOs take a simple deal and make it ridiculous. Most 40 year olds, regardless of their life experience will see through it. I am sure there are many 20 year olds who see through it, too.
Rocket,
Yes. I will continue to educate myself. I have been doing so by coming to sites like these (although questionable) and clicking on alot of the links provided by 'critics'. I have read some of the former court case notes. I do agree that some wrong has happened in the past. However, I have not seen anything that would convince me that being involved with Quixtar/Amway or being involved with wwdb is in any way, shape or form, wrong. I have over 20 years of experience in corporate america as well as non-profit organizations, the restaurant industry and many other businesses. None (and I mean none) have come even close to teaching me about people skills, self-motivation, inspiration, customer service, our history, than Worldwide Dreambuilders has. I am a logical, clear thinker. I apply "logic" to all I see.
Lisa,
I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about in your response after Rocket's response. Were you responding to something I wrote? Thanks for clarifying.
Tina
"have come even close to teaching me about people skills, self-motivation, inspiration, customer service, our history, than Worldwide Dreambuilders has"
Great! Self Improvement is always good.
But a business is to make money...
This reminds me of the wine tasting study in which people (unbeknownst to them) tried glasses of the exact same wine, but each glass had a different price attached to them - the majority of tasting convinced themselves that the "expensive" wine tasted best - even though it was the exact same wine as "el cheapo"!
Food for thought for the "we have better value" crowd
Great! Self Improvement is always good.
But a business is to make money...
Posted by: rocket | January 28, 2008 6:44 AM
Tina writes: Rocket, do you mean to tell me that you believe a person could be a successful business owner (financially, # of customers, growth in sales & # of customers, service, referrals, etc.) WITHOUT personal or self improvement? I find that very interesting. You're basically saying that any sales person or business owner does not need any kind of inspirational, teaching, motivational, educational, self-improvement, "mumbo-jumbo". Ha! I wish them luck! I don't believe it's ever been done. Please prove me wrong.
P.S. I'll take a life filled with positive, affirming, inspirational, motivational, educational "mumbo-jumbo" vs. the alternative.....any day of the week! ;-)
I'm not rocket, but I think he's saying if all you are getting from a business is self improvement and inspiration while losing money, you shouldn't be in business. A business should be first and foremost about profit, and everything else secondary. If you can make money and not be inspired, great. But if you are inspired but losing money, you should stop the business and look into charity work, less the IRS (in USA) comes down and you and claims your business to be a hobby.
dmm,
I completely agree!!!!
I was at walwart today. I saw suave shampoo on sale there for $1.04 for a 20 ounce bottle. Satinique used to cost over $5.00 a bottle for 10 ounces when I was an IBO.
Unless you're chasing a dream, it's highly unlikely you can find value when these kinds of disparities exist.
Yes, this is just one example, but if you visit walmart, you can find many other examples.
Dmm,
It is funny you mention the IRS thing. Many IBOs have gotten into trouble because they made outrageous claims on the tax forms saying this and that was a business expense. The IRS has some pretty serious guidelines for what they consider business. When I was in BWW, I was told that the products that I bought for self-consumption so that I could remain CORE could be put down as a business expense. Several people did that and were actually audited. They had to pay some pretty serious fines. I am NOT saying that ALL IBOs are taught and do this.
You are also dead on right with the profit-driven objective of owning a business. Everytime an upline said you had to buy this or that CD, I would just find a crossline and borrow the CD from them and burn a copy of it for my own use and then give them back their original. Everytime a book was on the reading list, I would just download a pdf of it from either free libraries online or Bittorrent. As for seminars, rallies, and functions, I would just have one of us from my group to go to the functions and record the seminars and then convert it to MP3 files to download on podcasts or personal iPods. Even after low overhead, the profit-to-price of the products was just not enough to be considered a great profit. Quixtar isn't the most unique opportunity of this kind out there. It is the oldest, but not necessarily the best.
Chaos12,
What's better?
joecool,
While I never liked Satinique, I don't think comparing suave and satinique is a fair comparison. You can buy dove shampoo and suave in the same grocery store, but dove is more expensive.
Rara, you are correct, but Dove is also cheaper that satanique and the "average Joe" customer oftetimes looks at the prices and makes their decisions based on the bottom line.
Of oucrse a good salesperson might be able to find some products that offer value to customers, but based on projections I've seen on sales (3-4%), quixtar IBOs are not able to project this value.
Tina - "I don't believe it's ever been done. Please prove me wrong."
Ray Kroc - had no time for motivation.
Bill Gates - Not a big motivational type fella
There's 2. Need more? I got lots.
Thanks DMM, that was the point. Tina, you say you completely agree? Am I to take this as you are making money?
By that I mean a long term sustainable income, AKA residuals?
If not, then how do you know it can be done?
I look forward to your response. I also would like you to consider taking Bridgett's challenge on my blog.
I created that challenge because many IBO's purport that their products are retailable.
I have yet to be proven wrong.
Feeling good is nice. FGeeling good while bleeding financially to your uupline under the guise of "Doing what it takes to succeed" likely feels just as good.
But you have to wake up eventually.
Most wake up when they have no choice, ie. they've run out of money because it was spent on books, tapes, and seminars.
Which your "leaders" make most of their money from.
Rocket,
You crack me up! You're "baiting" me. You're saying the same old, tired things that "critics" have been saying for years! You've been proven wrong time and time again.
First of all, how do you know that Ray Kroc had "no time for motivation"? That statement doesn't even make sense! Please reference an exact quote of his stating that...then I'll believe it. Even then...I really don't care.
Second, have you ever heard Bill Gates speak? I have. I've also been to many Microsoft seminars in my old corporate days as a business partner of Microsofts. Much of the content of their 'speeches' was filled with inspirational and motivational "mumbo-jumbo". It sure fired up their audiences to believe that Microsoft's products were the best in the world and it fired them up to go out and sell as much as they possibly could! Do you think the speaker made money? Damn right they did! Who do you think profited more on the sales of those MS products? The salespeople? I think not! In fact, the better the sales people did, the more money the corporation made and the faster the comp plan changed. I know. I lived that life for years!
By the way, YOUR definition of "making money" means a sustainable (what do you mean by that???), lifetime, residual income and does not reflect most people's idea of making money. Let me give you a hint: you're "making money" if your income exceeds your outflow. In other words, your profits (bonuses plus retail profits) exceeds your monthly business expenses. By that definition, I am making money (profit) EVERY month.
Now, on the point of residual....I have never thought this business to produce "residual" income in the sense that it is self-sustaining. I have always known that there is a certain level of "maintenance" involved if you want the "residual" income to keep coming in. Otherwise, if you stop the relationships with your downline, you risk losing some of your business.
That's not an issue with me and my husband. We believe too strongly in what we're doing. You see, we truly believe (and have proven) that we are financially helping couples with this opportunity. If they do it right and consistently, they WILL make money. They will also find that working together with common dreams and goals, will also help strengthen their marriage. We believe that's something worth doing....on a continual basis. We love what we do. Period. We don't ever intend on quitting.
One more thing Rocket: I'm with wwdb. I've made that known the few times I've responded on this website. Anyway, wwdb offers a "piece of the pie" to an IBO once they reach a certain level. I believe that's Founders Diamond. Not sure. Anyway, I also believe there are some "tool profits" that are available starting at the Platinum level. I've made it clear that we have known about this from day one and it has never bothered us. I worked at several F50 corporations that offered higher level employees (VP's and such) a "piece of the pie" in the form of stock options or profit sharing. I was never offered it as an employee. In fact, some of those "higher ups" started much later than I did and still got the additional incentives. They got the "profit sharing" off of my hard work, time, effort & sales. Did I think it was a scam? No! I just realized that was the way it was. If I wanted what they had, I had to earn my way to that level. Just like in this business.
By the way, hair shampoo is a very subjective and personal preference. I used to use anything from Prell to Dove to Suave and others. I've used salon shampoos that cost much more than Satinique. The average RETAIL cost of Satinique shampoo/conditioner is $9.60. That's $4.80 per month. Or, .16 per day. IF one shampoos daily. I've had my shampoo last anywhere from 2-4 months, depending on the amount used. I don't think that's going to break anyone's bank account. Besides, Satinique is salon-quality. So, if you're going to compare price, compare it with same quality products. Thanks! ;-)
Tina
P.S. Rocket, I gave some GREAT retailing info. earlier on in this same post. Look it up. We've got some wonderful new VERY retailable products.
Tina: "You've been proven wrong time and time again."
Where? Time and time again? How long have you been following the blogs? C'mon. Now you're just reaching sweetheart. I'd like to see a couple links of that!
I read Ray Kroc's autobiography, and posted about that very thing quite some time ago, September 17 2005 as a matter of fact. Here's the link:
http://rocketsrants.blogspot.com/2005/09/ray-kroc-said-it_17.html
What you are describing is a Microsoft seminar to teach people about the product and HOW TO MOVE IT. The reason for that get together was NOT to get people to buy books and CD's from Bill Gates, it was to get them to know more about the product to *gasp* sell it! As opposed to Amway motivational seminars held by the "leaders" who make the (Amway has admitted this!) majority of their income through their motivation business.
If you lose the relationship with your downline, you will lose ALL of your business. Funnily enough, this is never pointed out during a plan showing.
If you are in a "proven" system, then go ahead and prove it. You won't. Know how I know? Because I know you likely aren't making money in "your" business unless it's at the expense of others. Period. Feel free to prove otherwise.
When you were prospected, were you offered an opportunity to make money, or an opportunity to have common dreams and goals for you and your husband to work on together. Better yet, do you offer this as an opportunity to strengthen marriages, or as a way to make money?
A piece of the pie huh? When you show the plan, is that part of it? Because unless you are currently getting that tool bonus, you are not guaranteed this at all. There's nothing assuring it.
At all.
That extra money you speak of your employer paying out to the higher ups in stock options and profit sharing? That's the deal if you sign on for it. If you answer phones, you have less risk of getting canned for a mistake than a person making big decisions. Want the big money? Put yourself in a place to make big decisions. That is reality, and those guys who reap stock benefits for the most part are responsible for the actions of that stock. They have incentive to make sure it's worth something. Nothing new there, although you don't sound very worldly about it.
I wasn't involved in the shampoo discussion.
If your products are so retailable, then please read up and accept Bridgett's Challenge.
Here's the link:
http://rocketsrants.blogspot.com/search?q=Bridgett%27s+Challenge
I look forward to the email from you accepting my challenge. Until then, it says more about your lack of faith in the competitiveness of "your" products than it would about my cynicism. In fact, you refusing to prove me wrong doesn't only validate my cynicism, it suggests that I'm correct.
I'm sure you'll be like all the others, who simply say they're not interested in having me as a customer, but make no mistake about it.
I know that it's because you know that you cannot compete in the real world marketplace.
First of all Rocket, let's try to keep this "discussion" at a mature, professional and kind level. No need to get defensive & start "attacking" my level of "worldliness". By the way, if you read each of our entries again...I sound just as (if not more so) intelligent, credible & worldly so not sure where you're going with the "worldly" comment. ???
Rocket: "What you are describing is a Microsoft seminar to teach people about the product and HOW TO MOVE IT. The reason for that get together was NOT to get people to buy books and CD's from Bill Gates, it was to get them to know more about the product to *gasp* sell it! As opposed to Amway motivational seminars held by the "leaders" who make the (Amway has admitted this!) majority of their income through their motivation business."
Tina: "no different than the worldwide "functions" or seminars. The point of these gatherings is to educate us on how to make money with this opportunity AND how to retail (sell) products. Period. I've not encountered any other "agenda" in almost 5 years."
Rocket: "If you lose the relationship with your downline, you will lose ALL of your business. Funnily enough, this is never pointed out during a plan showing."
Tina: "This is just one statement (out of many) that shows your total and complete ignorance about this business opportunity. My immediate upline has lost touch with us. However, we're dedicated & comitted so he's not lost the business from us. If he were to "plug back in" and start building again, he'd have the PV & profits from our business. So, you may lose "some" of your business but not all....not if you build strong legs & have dedicated people in your business."
Rocket: "If you are in a "proven" system, then go ahead and prove it. You won't. Know how I know? Because I know you likely aren't making money in "your" business unless it's at the expense of others. Period. Feel free to prove otherwise. "
Tina: "Rocket, how dare you question me. You are accusing me of lying. Why would I lie? And if I were to lie...trust me honey...it'd be a MUCH better lie than that! Here you go: Our monthly expenses are approximately $150 per month. It changes because some months I do alot of retailing in one particular area and may stock up on samples & brochures to hand out. Anyway, our average monthly BONUS check is around $400.00. We then have retail profit (which varies) on top of that. That's making money. I never claimed to be making millions or even thousands. Not yet, anyway. For some reason, you seem to think you have to make that kind of money in order for this to be considered successful. Rocket, do you have any idea how many couples out there would LOVE to be making an extra $400-800 per month? That's what we make and we have for several years. Consistently. And what do you mean we're making money 'at the expense of others'??? Please clarify.
Rocket: "When you were prospected, were you offered an opportunity to make money, or an opportunity to have common dreams and goals for you and your husband to work on together. Better yet, do you offer this as an opportunity to strengthen marriages, or as a way to make money?"
Tina: "Huh? What is your point with this confusing paragraph? Sorry. I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Or ask."
Rocket: "A piece of the pie huh? When you show the plan, is that part of it? Because unless you are currently getting that tool bonus, you are not guaranteed this at all. There's nothing assuring it.
At all."
Tina: "Yes. We ALWAYS inform our prospects & new downline about the fact that the "higher ups" make money off of the "tools".
Rocket: "That extra money you speak of your employer paying out to the higher ups in stock options and profit sharing? That's the deal if you sign on for it. If you answer phones, you have less risk of getting canned for a mistake than a person making big decisions. Want the big money? Put yourself in a place to make big decisions. That is reality, and those guys who reap stock benefits for the most part are responsible for the actions of that stock. They have incentive to make sure it's worth something. Nothing new there, although you don't sound very worldly about it."
Tina: "Once again, Rocket, I'll need to correct you. First of all, you're probably a LOT more vulnerable to losing your job if you're answering phones because SUPPOSEDLY, you're more easily replaced. Second, when you reach the level of Platinum and above, you have proven yourself worthy. Not anybody can do that. Heck, most people can't even commit to working this biz for more than 3 months! Most people don't even show a plan in that first 3 months! The Diamonds and above who work with Worldwide also work OVER AND ABOVE THEIR REGULAR BUSINESS HOURS to make sure that the newest IBO is getting what he/she needs to make money in their business. They have a vested interest. If the IBO's don't do well, THEY don't do well. Once again, your ignorance of this business is speaking loud and clear! And again, what's up with the "worldly" comment? My comments were very insightful and proves I have knowledge of corporate america. I lived it, for goodness sake, Rocket!"
Rocket: "I look forward to the email from you accepting my challenge. Until then, it says more about your lack of faith in the competitiveness of "your" products than it would about my cynicism. In fact, you refusing to prove me wrong doesn't only validate my cynicism, it suggests that I'm correct."
Tina: "Who's Brigett??? What challenge??? Rocket, you remind me of my 4 year old when he's trying to 'push my buttons' or 'get a reaction' or 'bait me'. Listen. I'm only going to tell you this once. I have made it clear to others before you...I occasionally check this website just to see what my prospects might be looking at. That way, I can address it. Truthfully and seriously I don't have time to get on here even once a day! I am a stay at home mom who runs a retailing business part time. VERY part time until my kiddo's are in school full-time. Then, I'll kick it up a few notches. In the meantime, I am VERY VERY busy with MANY other things other than sitting on my computer answering "challenges" from critics. If I sit and do that, my business, my housework, my paperwork, my kids, etc. gets neglected. I'm not at my job "cheating" my employer by spending my time on sites like these. I don't have that kind of time. If you want to "challenge" me on THIS site, go ahead. I'm not afraid Rocket. I already gave you a lot of great retailing info. Have you even read it or checked it out? What's your response? I am selling the Simply Nutrilite and XS and Artistry stuff like crazy! Also, the Ribbon Gift Catalogs are selling more & more too. I'm working on a couple of fundraisers with those. I don't see why you have a problem with that or can't understand the reality of those situations.
I've said this to other critics to: if your intention as a consumer is to buy the absolute cheapest thing out there then no...I don't want you as a customer because it would not be a good fit. If your intention is to look at quality, convenience AND price then yes, I can certainly compete with the top-sellers out there. I win most of the time. The problem is sifting through the cheap-minded Wal-mart shoppers and the truly 'quality for the price' oriented shoppers. I target the latter.
So, my point is that I'm not trying to "avoid" a challenge with you. I just don't have time to sit and go from site to site and sit and read all this stuff. It doesn't further my life nor my business in any way, shape or form. Rocket, if you truly are "worldly" and "intelligent" then you would look at all the possibilities that IBO's are not taking you up on your challenge. Another possibility is that you will NEVER concede, even if/when we ARE right. So, why would we waste our time? Just like no matter what argument you conjure up about this business, it probably won't stop me from retailing and finding more IBO's to sign up. That's the way it is. Another reason your challenge is not being accepted is because most of us IBO's are spending our time building our business and making money! Not responding to silly critics' challenges.
I have to go now. I have many other things to do. I really do hope & pray you have an awesome day!"
It doesn't further your business to have another customer? Interesting... What you can gain by offering to retail me products is PV. It would further your business to gain yet another retail customer.
I'm not looking for the cheapest. I'm looking for the best value. You don't have it I don't believe, which is why I created the challenge. To be proven wrong. Nobody has had the jam to do it yet, and that's because they have little faith in the competitiveness of the products. Were you aware that Amway received results from a study that showed only 3.4% of the products sold were actually to a retail customer?
Your prospects DO see stuff like this, and once they sober up from the hype, they usually see what is and what is not credible.
Interestingly enough, you do seem committed to retailing. Do you believe the lifestyle portrayed in "The Profiles of Success" is achievable by retailing?
You never did respond to the fact that the tool income carries no guarantees with it. You also kinda glossed over the part about the tools profits being shared at a plan showing. Is that a fact? Do you really have a break down of what the profits from tools are at the platinum level. Face it, you have nothing in writing, nor will you ever, giving you assurances that when you hit platinum you will receive X amount of money without fail. It's up to the graces of your upline whether or not you get it. There is nothing set in stone which ensures you will get a tool break, which, incidentally, will be at the expense of others losing money. You must understand by now that the system is not cheap, and anyone doing their 100 or even 300 PV at the start of their business would be losing money on the system being plugged in.
I found this interesting:
"Most people don't even show a plan in that first 3 months!"
Do you have anything to support that, or is that just something you heard from your upline?
Did you include the cost of travel, seminar tickets, CD's, books, wear & tear on your vehicle, insurance, and gas
on your list of expenses? Telephone, Amvox, etc?
Your sponsor, "If he were to "plug back in" and start building again"
Can he still collect residuals as someone not on the system? Or is that up to someone else?
'As far as the seminars you compared to a Microsoft seminar. Again, you didn't catch the drift of what I was saying. First off, any seminar I've been to did not focus on retail at all. Most IBO's I've conversed with matches my experience. The system is heavily promoted, and by and large, they were usually promoting the next seminar at the start of the present one. I'm sure your group is different.
Let me know if you'd like to prove me wrong. Personally, I don't believe the products you have are worth the expense.
96.6% of the Amway sales prospect population agrees with me.
Did you know that Amway themself has stated that some "leaders" make more from their motivation business than they do from their Amway business?
You should perhaps investigate what else your prospects will see.
Tina: Truthfully and seriously I don't have time to get on here even once a day! I am a stay at home mom who runs a retailing business part time. VERY part time until my kiddo's are in school full-time. Then, I'll kick it up a few notches. In the meantime, I am VERY VERY busy with MANY other things other than sitting on my computer answering "challenges" from critics. If I sit and do that, my business, my housework, my paperwork, my kids, etc. gets neglected.
Response: Honestly, why do you bother coming on someone else's blog if you are so busy. This blog is an open and frank discussion about the business. Why would you be worried about your prospects seeing all of this, since, if you are marketing to the "right" people, then it shouldn't even matter what they see on the Internet, because they will sign up irregardless.
I don't see how you rise above and develop a pragmatic and amicable argument against Rocket's previous comments when you patronize him and reduce his intelligence level to a 4-year old. Seems kind of counter-intuitive when you take so much time to come on here and banter words with Rocket when you claim to be as busy as you are with family and the business. It also does you no credit to completely discredit Rocket's challenge since in the time you could have gone and completed his challenge and proven him wrong at his own game you spent a good deal of the time that you claim you don't have in writing a diatribe about your credentials and how busy you are to "lower" yourself to his level to argue with him. Many IBO's have come on here and have claimed to making great profit, which would be the equivalent of me coming on here and saying I'm a freakin millionaire.
Next time you don't want to accept a challenge, just say you don't want to do it. Saying you don't have the time and then going on a complete rant and patronizing and belittling people doesn't necessarily put you in the right. Just my 2 cents.
Can IBO's please stop living the myth that Wal-Mart sells "junk" - last time I checked (about 3 days ago) I saw a lot of name brands like Sony, Apple, Goodyear, Coca-Cola, etc....
I dunno - maybe Wal-Mart is cheaper because of their efficiency and distribution systems... ... and shoppers see the value???
Sigh....
First of all I wanna say, Kratos you are a fantastic writer. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your comments. You couldn't have been more correct in your statements.
Secondly- I get so sick and tired of hearing about the "quality" of Amway products. Who the hell decides the, actual, quality of a product anyway? Everyone has DIFFERENT tastes.
Some people prefer Red Bull to XS and vice-versa. Some people prefer Aqua Velva to Tolsom, some people also prefer a Corvette to a Kia but that doesn't necessarily mean that one is better than the other for that particular person.
It is nearly impossible to sell Amway products to retail customers, not because retail customers don't understand the "quality" of a product but because they don't NEED the "quality" of the product.
Before I joined Quixtar/Amway, whatever they're calling it these days, I NEVER had an energy drink and I always took Centrum Vitamins. In all honesty I could tell NO difference in my energy level but I definitely could see a differnce in my wallet.
Like Rocket said 96.6% of Amway sales are to IBO's and only 3.4% are sold to RETAIL customers. Can you imagine owning a business and consuming 96.6% of your own product? I wonder how long that business would last. Probably as long as most AmQuix "businesses" do.
To Tina- you can speak about quality until you're blue in the face and most people (96.6%) of them won't care. Is there that big of a difference between Tolsom and Aqua Velva? Santique and Dove? SA8 and Tide? XS Protein and EAS Protein (well actually EAS is MUCH better than XS and less expensive as well and this I can speak of from personal experience) What about Smart Menu Ketchup and Heinz? What about water filters? Hydroxycut and (whatever that fat burner you sell is called)? etc etc etc.
Besides the enormous price hik of Amway products, please tell me exactly how all of the above are better quality than their, retail, competitors.
One of my favorite videos, detailing the price differences between Meijer and Quixtar (from 2 Quixtar IBO's mind you)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvj-jLqqq3c
Does it matter to you that your prospects see this type of discussion Tina?
It should, because I have yet to see an IBO win the "quality is better with Amway" chestnut that seems to run rampant on these forums.
It ain't so, I'm afraid.
I think the bottom line is simple. There's plenty of evidence that IBOs do very little retailing, and based on quixtar's prices, its not hard to see why.
Thus when IBOs drop in telling the audience here how great the business is and that they have 20 regular customers who each do 20 PV, well, most get a bit skeptical, especially when the IBOs, in the face of questions, start to clam up and give the "none of your business" answers, ofthe generic tapespeak.
Some IBOs have made comparisons of quixtar products being like Mercedes Benz while Walmart's stuff being like
a Honda. My take is that (in general), quixtar's prices are like Mercedes, but the product's appearances and quality is like a Honda.
You may or may not agree with me, but based on Walmart sales, I'd say the general public overwhelmingly agrees with my assessment.
Rocket, Kratos & Big Dog,
First of all, I realize I'm responding the very next day. Please don't condemn me for that! It doesn't make me a liar. It just means I have the opportunity to get 10 minutes on the internet again before I tackle more chores & stuff. ;-)
Listen. Here's the deal. I never once claimed that you can be a multi-multi millionaire by retailing. You'd have to do one hell of a LOT of retailing. However, if you focus on it, do it the smart way, you could feasibly make six figures. And, like any business, you maintain it and grow it by maintaining relationships and askng for references.
As far as the tools money goes....I don't have details. Never claimed to. I know it exists. That's it. I don't have a problem with it like you do. That's it. There's no more to that story. Please don't ever put "claims" or words into my mouth.
We would never encourage our downline to spend all kinds of money on "tools" until they are making money. Period. We always loan out cd's, brochures, even samples! However, based on OUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in the past FOUR YEARS, MOST people do NOTHING with the stuff we give them. We loan tools. We offer to show the first few plans for/with them until they are comfortable doing it themselves. Most of the people we have sponsored (many many people, by the way) have NOT shown a plan in the first 1-3 months. I get that info. from my own PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Out of 35-50 couples (in the past 4 years), we have YET to find a couple like us who are willing to show the plan at least one day a week. We have heard one excuse after another: "I can't get off of work in 3 weeks" "It's my nieces birthday party" "I have to bowl" "I'm too tired and have to get to bed early" "My EX-girlfriends cat died" "I have to volunteer at my kids' school". These are SERIOUS. It's UNBELIEVEABLE! These are excuses with days, weeks or even MONTHS notice(in the case of a function)! It's CRAZY! It does not suprise us at all why people are broke, in debt, both parents working, working 2-3 jobs, kids in daycare, health failing by age 35-40. But MOST people are NOT willing to do anything about it! That's the cold hard truth.
Rocket, I know what "expenses" mean.
Kratos, I said what I meant. I thoroughly explained why I will not go to a bunch of different sites. If Rocket wants to challenge me...put it on here. Maybe I'll catch it. Or, he can ask for my email address or give me his and we can take it "offline". Also, Rocket was the one acting like the 4 year old. I think that was pretty clear. It wasn't me who put him in that position. All I said was he reminded me of my 4 year old.
Big Dog, we do actual, "live" demonstrations with our products vs. the best selling competitor (just to make it as fair as possible) ;-). I KNOW our Nutrilite supplements kick Centrum's ass! And, we beat Melaleuca, GNC, Nature-Made, One-A-Day, and more. As far as Red Bull, it's full of sugar (the regular kind) & preservatives (the "diet" kind) and tastes like crap. If you don't care...well, then I can't help you. That isn't my problem or the fault of my products. That would be YOUR problem in that particular situation.
Also, Tide (like many other 'discount' type of soaps) is chalk full of "fillers". Up to 80%! Fillers like clay & paper. It's true and has been proven on entertainment news shows like Dateline, etc. when they've done comparisons. So in that case....yes. SA8 is FAR superior to Tide and is CHEAPER in most instances. It's 100% detergent & fully dissolves within seconds and CLEANS your washer & pipes and is biodegradeable, non-toxic & environmentally friendly. Also, when you compare price, you can't compare box to box. You have to compare usage.
Big Dog, you are obviously out of touch with the products and all of the competitive (price & quality) information on them. Check out the site. I think you'll be quite suprised.
Three more things guys:
1. The 3.4% is a mis-nomer. It's not a fair and accurate reflection of the retailing IBO's do. For example, I'm just one IBO out of millions. I have sold products and just put them on my personal order in order to provide my customer FREE shipping...as a value add. That would not be counted into the 3.4%.
2. Many of the products we purchase like spaghetti sauce, ketchup, peanut butter, shampoo, aftershave, etc. are because we are supporting our own business. When the prices are close and we get free shipping and I can save myself the time-consuming, VERY stressful (with kids) trip to the store, WHY WOULDN'T I??? I really, truly do purchase MOST of our household stuff from our own biz. Light bulbs, garbage bags, tennis shoes, purses, kids' clothes, all bath stuff, all kitchen stuff, batteries, all home cleaning stuff, all health supplements, tv's, exercise equipment, Christmas presents, Wedding presents, Baby presents, all skin care, all cosmetics, all laundry stuff and more. I LOVE it!
3. I really and truly do NOT want to fight with you guys. You are convinced of your opinion and I'm convinced of mine. There is no winning here. I love what I do. I believe in it. I hope & pray you guys have all found something you enjoy and feel passionate about that HELPS other people! I think you would really enjoy that.
God bless you.
Tina
Tina- I'm out of touch with the products and their quality? How do you figure?
You said Red Bull is full of sugar and tastes like carp? Well tasting like crap would be your opinion right? Again it's a matter of taste.
Personally I don't care for any energy drink. I think they're a fad and eventually will disappear. They're a waste of money to me, I'd rather drink water or milk. Much healthier for you, and none of that gittery burst of energy. I don't need extra energy because I take care of myself, eat right, exercise, and sleep at night.
As far as SA8 compared to Tide and the usage factor, Consumer Reports considered SA8 to be a better product but did NOT consider it to be a better buy, since Tide costs .23 c/load compared to SA8's .61 c/load.
As far as Nutralite kicking Centrum's ass. Like I said, I know Nutralite kicks their ass in price ($360 to $13.99 for 6 months) but they certainly didn't do anything extra special for me.
While those products may be better quality (and much more expensive) the majority of Amway products are not better quality and they're still much more expensive then their competitors.
One thing I have to address is all the hubbub about people being broke, working 2-3 jobs and living in debt. I especially got a chuckle out of people's health failing at 35-40 years old.
Where do you come up with all of this stuff? Oh that's right, you probably heard it on a tape somewhere.
Ummm...yeaaaaaahhhhh - Anyone who equates Meadowbrook and Critic's Choice with the word "quality" needs to have their head examined....seriously.
So now Tide is all filler??? What, the "Tide will corrode your washing machine and it'll fall apart within 5 years" story wasn't available???
Dateline is a credible source now? Care to link the "80% filler" source? When does the "we can show people how to save $600-$800/month by changing their shopping habits" claim come out??
AMO logic is just so neat to see in action;
Mom who buys Wal-Mart "junk" = "Horrible Mommy who would pass up quality and abuse her children's health to save a buck! Call the DHS on her!!!"
vs.
AMO Mom who buys from her bidnez = "Paragon of virute and morality who loves her kiddies so much (even though we ingest the rugrats with no-quality crap that Wally World wouldn't touch). Book Dexter Yager for my kids next birthday party!!!!"
Welcome back Anon, Tony, Ryan, and whatever the next incarnation will be named.
Cheers!
Piggybacking customer orders on your own to get free shipping just spoke volumes about "the business".
Face the facts.
If someone took recorder and acted out Tina's rants, they could make one hell of a good tape or CD to instill more mind-washing to the Quixtar masses of gaining great profit and wealth selling overpriced stuff.
News flash, toots, you don't need to be in Quixtar to be happy, healthy, and wealthy with your time and money. Most of the folks that work with me, I am in the mechanical engineering field BTW, are NOT broke, do not have SIGNIFICANT debt, and are rather healthy. We have a fellow here who is 45, and he is RETIRING in a couple of months!!!
His kids, BTW, have never gone to day care because his wife has stayed home with them!!!! Also, he isn't even in a management or executive position!!! Reason why there is such a statistic as the 95% who are in-debt and won't be able to retire is because they live well beyond their means in their youth. A lot of people in that 5% have been very prudent and miserly with their finances and have fully utilized Roth IRAs and numerous other NON-QUIXTAR vehicles to gather a healthy nest-egg for them to retire at a younger retirement age than the typical 60 years.
As per your reply:
Tina: Kratos, I said what I meant. I thoroughly explained why I will not go to a bunch of different sites. If Rocket wants to challenge me...put it on here. Maybe I'll catch it. Or, he can ask for my email address or give me his and we can take it "offline".
What you offered was nothing more than the same caliber of lame excuses that you claim the 35-50 couples you worked with offered you when it came time for functions or rallies. Barely scrounging 10 minutes is still enough time to give Rocket's challenge a serious look at rather than coming on here and ranting about how the rest of the American middle-class are broke, unhealthy, family-deprived slaves. That is the same downright "holier-than-thou" generalization that tends to give IBO's a really bad reputation.
Saying stuff like maybe I will catch it or requesting to answer a challenge offline is nothing more than cop-out. It shows a complete lack of any kind of professionalism or maturity on your part when you spew out irrational and over-generalized remarks which obviously are based on highly opinionated sources, aka, your WWDB, BWW or LTD tapes and CDs. This, by the way, is the same professionalism and maturity that you had requested of Rocket several comments ago:
Tina: "First of all Rocket, let's try to keep this "discussion" at a mature, professional and kind level."
Since you do LIVE demonstrations to prove your point, then what is the concern with proving your point with Rocket's product challenge. Prove him wrong, and you will be the mature and professional expert. Keep saying that you are too busy with attending to your young ones and with chores to answer a logical product challenge, and you will be nothing more than a juvenile and irrational teenager in the eyes of the prospects that come on here looking for a robust exchange of ideas on the Quixtar program and its products.
Tina, here's Rocket's challenge:
Here is my challenge to any IBO out there, and it's an opportunity for you to make me eat crow.
- Provide the Rocket with your current pin level
- Provide the Rocket with your "freedom date"
- Reach your freedom date (obviously by matching your Quix income to your job income for what, 6 months? Does that sound fair?)
- Tool or training income does not count
- Prove it to me
- I will quit slamming Amway/Quixtar, close this website and quit commenting on other sites
That's it. Do what all the IBO's say they are going to do. Prove It.
"As far as the tools money goes....I don't have details."
Great...You've proven my point. It's not an income you can count on.
So if a prospect asks you how much they can expect to make with the tools, you don't know?
Why would someone want to get involved with such a vague payout? Not very business savvy.
I found it interesting that you made inferences to being a busy mom, yet made it clear that people volunteering at their kid's school was an unacceptable excuse for not doing the business.
Before you go slandering Tide's name, you better have a link which proves your claim. I'm afraid an Amway "leader's" word won't cut it. Amway's already been taken to task because of libelous statements made by IBO's (regarding satanism). Please be better than that.
The 3.4% is far more realistic than you are prepared to admit, unfortunately. Did you know product prices and general reputation is why a number of high level IBO's have left this great opportunity in the last year? You should investigate this a little more thouroughly before investing much more of your valuable time into it. Obviously, YOU are pathetically out of touch.
As far as convenience, give me a break. You get milk delivered to your door? Eggs? Cheese? Fruit? Vegetables? You have to buy that stuff at the store anyways, so you can put that little argument back on the shelf. Nobody here is buying it.
That's an interesting use of words Tina, when you infer that we don't already do things that help other people, and is obviously a ploy to make you feel significant and smug.
If as many people come to these sites and read your arguments and ours, I'm sure we'll be helping just as many people as you claim to.
Thanks for posting my Challenge Joecool. I wasn't aware that copy and pasting a link was so time consuming.
Let me know if you'd like to shut me up by taking my challenge and proving me wrong Tina. My email is on my blog. It's very easy to make me go away. Prove how good it is. Nobody has yet.
You would make a great tape/CD Tina. You've covered almost every argument that IBO's bring up.
It's been awhile since I've had a good dose of tapespeak.
Big Dog,
MOST people DON'T eat right, get enough sleep, etc. so MOST people (of course, NOT YOU!) DO need to be educated on how to live a more balanced & healthy lifestyle. I've learned TONS in the past 5 or so years not only through Worldwide/Quixtar but also through Oprah/Dr. Oz, a couple of mom's magazines and other health related shows.
Nutrilite has been clinically PROVEN to be a better quality supplement and GUARANTEED to improve energy & health. If it didn't do it for you...that doesn't mean it doesn't help anyone else.
Also Big Dog...you SERIOUSLY doubt that most people are living beyond their means, are in debt and are working at least 2 jobs? I don't know where you live or who you associate with but I'm around a LOT of people who fall into those categories. Just two weeks ago we showed the plan to a couple who just had their 3rd kid, he has a full time job, she has a full time AND a part time job. They work opposite shifts so they don't have to have their kids in daycare for very long. I respect that. They however, are DESPARATE (per THEIR words) to find SOMETHING because they are barely able to make ends meet right now! I know that sounds crazy but it's true! They're not the only couple like that. We've met LOTS. Plus, I talk to women. A lot of women. They tell me their financial status.
But, you know what's ironic? When we were showing the plan to that "desparate" couple, we found out he eats out at LEAST once a day, seven days a week. That's $5-10 per day! That's anywhere from $140 to 280 per month! On fast food! It's CRAZY! Plus, they had a HUGE 54" HDTV in their otherwise bare living room. Nuts.
Big Dog, I suggest you start watching CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, FOX News, Nightline, etc. to see what's going on in the stock market, the housing market, the oil prices, in the economy in general. THAT'S where I get most of my info. NOT from my upline!
Baloney Police,
I don't even know how to respond to your comments because I didn't even say any of those things. You made them all up or assumed that's what I meant to say. That's just wrong. Better check your own "baloney".
Also, who are Anon, Tony & Ryan? I'm a mom of two in Minnesota. Please stop the assumptions. It does not make you look good.
----------------------------------------
Free from Q*,
I have NO idea what you're talking about. "piggybacking" is just smart business.
----------------------------------------
Kratos,
Wow. Calm down. You need to take a 'chill pill'. You got really worked up! I never said you have to be involved with Quixtar/Amway to be happy, healthy, wealthy & wise (or whatever you said). Not even close! For US and for a LOT of people, it's the best option to create a secondary (or third or fourth) stream of income. It's a way to help get out of debt. It's a way to start a retirement fund. That's all.
I'm happy for your friend at work. Good for him! I'm sure you're doing quite well too and are out of debt and/or have a solid plan for your future. Good for you!!! However, you are NOT in the majority! Get your head out of the sand, turn on the tv, read the newspaper or just talk to people and you'll see that.
Kratos, offering my personal email and taking on the challenge personally is bold. It certainly isn't a cop-out, as you say.
----------------------------------------
Rocket,
Wow. I'm suprised that YOU made an assumption and glossed over what I wrote. I thought you were better than that. Once again, I never claimed to know the details about the comp plan from wwdb and the marketing materials/seminars and no one has ever challenged me on this.
I also never said it was bad to volunteer at their kids' school. Heck, I volunteer 1-2x a week! My point was that they'll know about a plan/event/seminar/training session days or even weeks in advance and then they'll be asked to volunteer and will do that instead of sticking to their original comittment to go to the meeting or show the plan or attend a training session. That's what I meant and I think you knew that...deep down.
I'm not slandering anyone's name. I'm stating facts based on research, yes...Dateline (or whatever show it was) and product demonstrations.
Care to back up your comment about most IBO's leaving due to price of products and general reputation? That's your OPINION. NOT FACT.
Um, Rocket, getting my consumables, drinks, bars, etc. delivered right to my front door for free IS EXTREMELY convenient! Going to the grocery store for my perishables is another thing. When we get grocery service, I'll sign up for it! I'm actually in the process of looking at Simon Delivers &/or Schwann's for food delivery. Very convenient and competitively priced (per some girlfriends).
By the way, go read my comments again. Wow. You guys don't even read everything (or sometimes, anything) before you stike back!
I didn't infer or mean that you didn't already do work to help others. I meant what I said and it was from the heart.
What is tapespeak?
Tina, I find it very interesting that you tell me to turn on the TV and look at the stock market, housing market, oil prices etc etc etc. I've been an investor in the stock market for years and years, so I have a good grasp on what's going on with the market and the economy, but thank you for your concern.
I also find it ironic, how you can focus on the negative when it comes to anything that, attempts to strengthen your argument, but will not budge one inch when so many, negative, facts are brought against AmQuix.
I also found it amusing, no actually it's sad, that you show this plan to DESPERATE couples. You said it yourself, you've met many DESPERATE couples and showed them this plan. Just goes to show that IBO's target desperate people and couples who can "barely make ends meat".
I don't believe, nobody lives beyond their needs, but ya know what, that's their decision. Quixtar is not the answer to people's spending habits. Some people are good with their money, some people are bad with it.
I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I received my MBA 7 years ago and spekaing as someonw who has a grasp on business, the Amway/Quixtar model is NOT a good "business" oppotunity. It's just that simple.
Facts are facts, any business that only retials 3.4% of it's inventory (for lack of a better word) to RETAIL customers is NOT going to be successful, thus the incredible failure rate in ANY MLM scheme, not limited to just Amway/Quixtar. The fact that you're NOT allowed to set up a booth, have a cooler in a store, have a display in a store, on your own terms, is ridiculous.
The problem is you IBO's actually believe you own your business and have no "boss". That's just not true.
I'll just end this here, you constantly mention how people who aren't in debt and don't live beyond their means are not in the majority. Well, the people that actually can retire from Quixtar, are NOT in the majority either, their in the top .01%
Thanks Tina, you just verified what I said without even realizing it...
Baloney Police was kind of caustic in their statement - but he/she was dead on your next talking point about spending habits and AMO worldview on parents and consumers. S/he did read what you wrote!
We know the scripts!
A leopard can't teach a housecat to hunt gazelles.
free from Q*,
please speak in plain english. maybe i'm just "thick"...but I have NO idea what in the world you are talking about. If you want to get a point across...try doing it clearly.
thanks,
Tina
Big Dog,
I sure hope you're diversifying. The stock market is not a good basket to have ALL of your eggs in right now and in the next couple of years.
Why in the world is it sad to show another couple, who's needing financial guidance & help, how to save money & create an additional stream of income? Do you think what they're doing is working? Do you think adding another job into the mix would be better? Tell me, Big Dog, what would be YOUR solution for them?
Why, oh all-knowing Big Dog, is Quixtar/Amway NOT a good business model? It's been around and has been PROVEN & SUCCESSFUL for well over 30 years! Nutrilite, LOC & SA8 have been around longer than that! What would YOU recommend as a good business model when people don't have the upfront capital or the credit to get a loan? What is YOUR solution for the AVERAGE couple in America? Keep buying lotto tickets?
I would have to agree with you on your last two points. I don't "own" this business. I am contracted with my own online franchise through Quixtar/Amway. Just like the McDonald's corporation with a McDonald's store (franchisee), THEY make up all the rules & pretty much set up the guidelines of how the franchise is to be run. I may not like it...but that much is true. I just haven't found a better deal...yet.
As far as the Diamonds and above being in the minority in America....yup! You got that right! I used to make six figures a year on a consistent basis, until I gave it up to raise my own kids. When I made six figures a year, I was in the MINORITY of American workers. That's pretty true in any industry.
Tina, my favorite little Ambot as of late...
You may never have laid claim to knowing the details of the tools business, but you made it clear that your prospects are aware of it. My question was, how much can they be aware if you don't even know the profit breakdown? Furthermore, you not knowing the profit breakdown simply proves my point, you don't know what you don't know. Perhaps if you are telling people about the tools profits, you should know what you are talking about. Obviously you don't.
Didn't say it was bad to volunteer at their kid's school? Oh, I guess I must've misunderstood this:
"We have heard one excuse after another:...."I have to volunteer at my kids' school". These are SERIOUS. It's UNBELIEVEABLE!"
I know what you meant. If they don't do whatever being "plugged in" entails, they aren't serious about the business.
I guess I must've misunderstood this statement about Tide as well:
"Also, Tide (like many other 'discount' type of soaps) is chalk full of "fillers". Up to 80%! Fillers like clay & paper. It's true and has been proven on entertainment news shows like Dateline,..."
Please provide a link which can verify your claim. If you cannot, you are technically making libelous claims since you are a competitor of that product.
I will await your proof of that statement, although if you are like other IBO's (which you sure sound like) than you will have just repeated what your upline told you.
You asked me to back up my comment about most IBO's leaving due to price of products and general reputation. OK.
Bo Short (may have a link)
Eric Sheibler (have a link)
Orrin Woodward (have a link + it's in a lawsuit)
Chris Brady (have a link + it's in a lawsuit)
I've given you more already in terms of validating my claims than you have to any of us. How about more than canned responses?
My point was, you have to go to the store anyways. The premium you have to pay through Amway is just non-viable as an opportunity.
Am I wrong? If so, then please show me. Take my challenge. It would take less time than you've wasted here. Seriously.
I'm sure you'll retort that you don't have to "prove" anything to me. You're right. But if I recall, you are here to defend the business online in case any of your prospects see it. You are failing miserably.
You trying to tell people what's going on in the outside world is pretty funny, considering that if you are plugged in as you say you are, then you won't know either. You are simply repeating what your upline tells you.
That works on Ambots, but it doesn't work here.
Ready to hear from you again, tapespeak is fun!
Tina said: "Also, Tide (like many other 'discount' type of soaps) is chalk full of "fillers". Up to 80%! Fillers like clay & paper. It's true and has been proven on entertainment news shows like Dateline..."
rara says: Also, Quixtar is chalk [sic] full of people behaving like cultists and big pins making oodles of money from their tools businesses while multitudes of downlines lose money. It's true and has been proven on entertainment news shows like Dateline...
Funny, Anon also left a "six-figure income" to have kids too....
Still waiting for the link for Tide is 80& filler...
Plain english???? No, the problem is I talk from a business perspective - not a social rehabilitation/save couples from themselves program view.
If you believe bringing in desperate, excuse ridden couples who can't even afford Wal-Mart as business partners and shunning potential customers away because they might view price as an issue is somehow a solid business plan.......well, I wish you the best.
Thanks for posting
BTW - here's a SOLUTION for those families.
Live BELOW your means.
Works every time.
Cheers!
rocket,
I will concede to you that I could know more about the tools income. I think all IBO's feel this way. I'm not happy that they tell us they make money from it but don't disclose details. However, it's never been my primary concern because I don't have a problem with them making money from the cd's they make, the seminars they run, and the brochures they help design & create. I could know more. Happy now?
Nope. Still never said volunteering at your kids school was bad.
Regarding Tide...sue me. Sorry, I don't have links.
You don't have links to prove your claim about IBO's leaving 'cuz they thought the prices were too high.
rocket, I've given you my monthly income from this biz, along with my expenses. My "pin" is between 1000 & 1200PV and growing. I don't have a "freedom date". We do however, have certain goals set & a timeframe of 5-10 years. What else do you want to know?
No one is "feeding me" info. It's coming from my own experience and knowledge. I still have no idea what you guys mean by "tapespeak". Care to give a definition? Is it anything like 'critic speak'? You know, when an IBO gives you valid information & real numbers based on their experiences and you guys come back with some canned response like "oh yeah? well....they make money on the tools ya know!". Like little kids with their fists balled up, trying to make a point no matter what the other person is saying. You guys refuse to listen. You continue to gloss over much of what we (in this case, I) say and you continue to pound into the ground your same old arguments that have been disproven time and time again. It's baffling to me.
As far as my 'worldly' knowledge, I watch CNN, MSNBC, and sometimes Fox news daily along with local news. I usually watch them during my workout at the local gym while my kids are in school. I watch a couple of programs on CNN at night, including Glen Beck. He's great. I sometimes watch the entertainment news shows like 48 hours, Dateline, etc. I take those shows with a 'grain of salt'. They are "entertainment" news shows, after all. I also watch some of the reality shows. Those are really fun! We generally attend one meeting per month. Otherwise, we try to show at least 1 plan a week. Some weeks it's up to 4-5 plans. Depends.
As far as your point about having to "go to the store anyways"....I'm trying to get away from that. What don't you understand about that? I HATE going to the store. Always have! I'm not alone in that category. Some love it. Some tolerate it and accept it. Some hate it. This is an opportunity for me to cut down my errands significantly. I purchase ALL of my kids school clothes and most of their supplies from the comfort of my own home in less than 2 hours. You can't beat that! And shipping was FREE, by the way. When you purchase $50 of stuff from Office Depot (school supplies), shipping is free. When you buy $25 of clothes from webclothes.com, you get free shipping. It seems pretty straighforward to me and to hundreds of thousand (maybe millions) of others.
Rara,
C'mon...."cultists"??? I mean...really. That's a pretty drastic statement. It's kind of funny, actually. :-)
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Free from Q*,
Having a hard time speaking in english, eh? You have yet to speak CLEARLY, let alone from a business perspective.
So, you think it's wrong to want to reach out and help another family the way we were helped, eh? Wow. That's sad.
I have to agree with you that EVERYONE, no matter WHO you are or HOW MUCH you're making, should live within their means. It's clear they do not.
I have learned a LOT in that category and could definitely TEACH them how to do it for FREE! I could teach them budgeting, planning, cutting back, going without, etc. All that would make a HUGE difference in their bottom line.
By the way, do you actually think I'm the only mom of two on this site who used to make six figures in a previous career? That's just silly! Think about it.....
Tina, I'm confused about your stock market comment. How do you know it is not good to be invested for the next two years. In my 7 plus years of serious investing i have never met anyone with your degree of clairvoyance. Do you believe everything your are told about investing from your leaders? Why not try options, shorts or ETF's? I guess i'll be poor and unhealthy because i wasn't saved by quixtar.
Yup, Tina - you nailed me...
...I'm Gordon Gekko, Montgomery Burns, Pol Pot, and Eva Perron all rolled up into one. You've shown me the light - no more tithe checks will I ever write!
Ahhh... so little business in "the business".
You do such a good job proving the critics' points better than us "critics" - the floor is yours...post away!
Thanks again!
Tina, thanks for your concern about my stock diversification, but I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing. See unlike IBO's I don't invest all of my money into ONE company. I own some steady stocks, I own high dividend paying stocks, and I own some high risk stocks, but that's neither here nor there.
Why is it sad for you to show desperate couples the plan? Well, I just find it funny, that IBO's are taught to target that type of prospect, desperate people, or young college kids, who are willing to do almost anything. Try approaching a couple who doesn't live above their means, and who both have careers, and NO children.
See, no matter how much money you make, or how well off you are, you can NEVER have enough money, and if Quixtar/Amway is such a great opportunity, than couples or individuals who have tons of money and lots of free time should also be targeted as prospects. Yet, you're never taught to go after them.
I love how you threw that, condescending "all-knowing" in there for me. I'm not all knowing, and have never claimed to be. Amway has been around for years, yes, but proven and successful? Successful for who? .01% of the IBO's who joined? Why are only 2/3 of IBO's active? Why do 66% of IBO's drop out each year? That's successful?
You and I have a differing opinion on success. I guess it's successful for the Devos's and Van Andel's that's for sure. And actually since Amway was founded in 1959 it would be almost 50 years. Why would you put "over 30 years"? Did you not know when Amway was founded?
As far as my advice for couples, like freefromQ said "live below their means". Not really that hard to do.
What would I recommend as a good business model if they don't have the credit or capital to start a business? Simple, don't start a business. Who says anyone has to own their own business. It's not my job to give advice to couples on how to live their lives. It's really none of my business. If someone wants to work a second or third job, it's their decision, but I can GUARANTEE that they get paid for going to work. That kind of guarantee is NOT there for Quixtar.
Another thing, I find it hard to believe that you left a "six-figure income" for 1200-1400PV a month, I mean, what does that translate to? $1,000 a month, before taxes and expenses? You also mentioned how you watch shows at the gym while your children are in school, yet you mention how you left that "six-figure income" to be home with them. Well if your children are in school all day, how are you at home with them?
Either way I really do find it hard to believe that you left a job paying, at least, a GUARANTEED $100,000 a year for an opportunity to make $150,000 a year as a Diamond (of course that income doesn't include tools, but the tool system is not mentioned while showing the plan). And that opportunity has a 1 in 14,000 chance of happening. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Tina, the point is, with $115 average IBO income and the fact that the vast majority of IBOs don't make money, high prices, etc. The value just isn't there. Sure, it's "possible" to find a few customers and perhaps build a downline. It's possible but it's not likely.
So although your intentions of "helping people" may be sincere, the barriers that are associated with the business are simply too much for most people to overcome.
The reality is most IBOs would be better off working a second job.
Jace,
Watch CNN Money News sometime. It's on there almost every day.
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Free from Q*,
I really mean no disrespect by this but I have no interest in "conversing" with you. I don't know if you don't understand english or perhaps it's my misunderstanding you....but I truly don't get what you are trying to say. I re-read what I wrote to you then re-read what you responded. You don't even respond to what I write! So, I won't be corresponding with you. I'm sure that won't break your heart. ;-)
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Big Dog,
Good for you on your stock diversification. If I put you down for being in the market, forgive me. I believe what I said was just be careful. That's all. Don't put ALL of your money in the market. I didn't get that from the CD's (formerly, tapes). I got that (once again) from CNN Money News, MSNBC, Suze Orman, Jean Chetzky (spelling may be incorrect), financial rags, etc. I'm not going to go over that again.
Big Dog,
We actually target people who are looking for another means of making an income and who tell us they are WILLING to do something about it. We also try to target those with our ambition level or above (in EVERY are of their life....physical, emotional, financial, spiritual, contributing to community, etc.).
Sorry about coming off 'condescending'. I'll watch that in the future. ;-)
The main reason MOST (of course, not ALL) people don't experience financial success in this business is because THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is the COLD, HARD TRUTH!!!!!!!!! MOST people do NOT show a plan a week. MOST people do NOT attend the training & motivational meetings. MOST people don't even try to retail! If they did, they would make money!!! How do I know? EXPERIENCE!!!!! FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!! I've told you in previous postings what I've done for my downline AND what I've been willing to do. It's never enough. We're finally getting tougher. The most difficult thing about this business is finding people who are WILLING to do something about their situation! Most are not willing. They bitch then they keep doing the same thing. Well, I'm not going to wait for them NOR am I going to hang out with that type of person. There is much truth to the saying "you are who you hang around".
Also, Big Dog, you said: "Another thing, I find it hard to believe that you left a "six-figure income" for 1200-1400PV a month, I mean, what does that translate to? $1,000 a month, before taxes and expenses? You also mentioned how you watch shows at the gym while your children are in school, yet you mention how you left that "six-figure income" to be home with them. Well if your children are in school all day, how are you at home with them?
Either way I really do find it hard to believe that you left a job paying, at least, a GUARANTEED $100,000 a year for an opportunity to make $150,000 a year as a Diamond (of course that income doesn't include tools, but the tool system is not mentioned while showing the plan). And that opportunity has a 1 in 14,000 chance of happening. That just doesn't make sense to me."
I'm shocked. Just shocked that you would be suprised that a person is actually willing to set aside a six figure income for her children. That's right. I was making over $100K and my hubby was making maybe $60K. I quit. That's right! Most people who have to have the "stuff" and are not willing to make a lifestyle change would not do what I (we) did.
I quit. I had to stop shopping where I was shopping. I had to stop getting my nails done. I had to stop going to a salon. I stopped eating out. I started getting my clothes (and my kids' clothes) at used clothing stores and consignment shops and Walmart and Target. Yes, you read right. I started getting my hair cut at Great Clips and coloring it myself with a box color. I bought sale items and put together a budget. Even with all this, we still had to make much bigger changes....we eventually had to sell our home and downsize. We were willing to do that because our children's welfare was more important to us than having a big house or driving fancy cars and wearing the latest styles. The monthly income from this business (I told you that earlier too...so don't ask again) has kept me from going out to work for someone else. The flexibility of it is great too 'cuz if I have to bring my kids...then I do! No problem! Can't do that with a job.
Also, better be careful about your "stay at home mom" comments. I have one in elementary school & one in preschool. I have sacrificed a great deal to get to where I am today...being able to go to the club for an hour or so a day. I have made my children my priority and put myself & my needs on the back burner. When they're both in school next year, I'll still be a "stay at home mom" in the sense that I'll be the one to see them off to school and I'll be the one to greet them after school and I'll be volunteering at their school a couple of times a week. I'll continue to be very involved in their lives. I will also continue to focus on building our biz 3 or so days a week. I'll work with other families, showing them how to save money and make money buying online. I'll also work the biz to biz and the fundraising opportunities.
Commenting on this site has taken up waaaaaaaay too much of my time and has taken time away from potentially building my business (which I know, is your goal). I have told you practically my life story! There's really not much more for me to say.
To all of you: If I have been disrespectful, please forgive me. That is not my intention. My intention is to simply defend an honest and good business opportunity and to show any "prospects" the real side of this business. That's all. I am going to "bow out" of any further discussion. You've got all of my info. I don't think there's anything else you need from me to form your opinions. Good luck in all you do.
Tina
Tina, maybe it's not that people won't show a plan a week, or sell stuff to others. Maybe they CAN'T.
Quixtar/Amway has a spotty reputation in the US and therefore, it's not easy to get people to agree to see the plan at your home or attend a big open meeting.
Also, with quixtar's high prices, it's not easy to sell stuff. Quality debates aside, how do you convince the average customer that double x at $78 a box for a 30 day supply is more value than a 6 month supply from Costco for $15.99?
I know you made the example of saving people time and the trouble of going to the store, but as others have pointed out, you will likely still have to go to the store to buy eggs and milk, etc. If people truly despise going to the store, they could always hire someone to do it for them for a free and that would still be cheaper than buying everything from quixtar.
If it works for you, that's great but it's pretty obvious that is doesn't work for the majority, and that's why you have critics.
CNN huh? Well i can guarantee that whoever delivers the news on CNN knows that regardless of the economic outlook there is always money to be made in the market. Regardless of the credentials of the person who peaches to you on CNN/Quixtar it is virtually impossible to predict two years down the road. Please don't give me such a succinct response on a topic you seem to be very unfamiliar with.
Regards
Jace
Joecool,
With all due respect, that's your opinion. Not fact. We have no problem showing 1-4 people (per week) this opportunity. We typically sign up most of the people we show the plan to. The problem is not that people cannot find people to show the oppotunity to. The problem is that they don't even try. They tell us that. That's how we know. We are really good "people" people. We develop friendships fast because we are friendly and we are honest. People like that. So they share their thoughts & habits with us. They trust us. Plus, we dont' pressure them. They're big boys and girls. We show them an opportunity and they have to do the rest. We can't do it for them. We can only offer our help.
The bottom line is people are afraid or not willing to change their current habits. You can believe what you want. I don't believe they CAN'T.
With the Nutrilite supplements, all we have to do is a demo. Speaks for itself. Did you know you can get a 6 month supply of Daily for only $22.60? that's only $3.67 per month. You can't beat that with ANY other product out there and the quality cannot be beat!
It's not that the opportunity doesn't work for the masses...it's that the critics couldn't make it work for them. So they think it doesn't work for others either.
At this point, let's just agree to disagree. Have an awesome evening!
Jace,
Now, why in the world do you have to respond that way? Why do you think I don't have credentials? What are YOUR credentials???
Regarding CNN....just watch it, ok? For about a week. Also, check out www.hsdent.com. I think you'll be suprised. He's an expert and can forecast on the economy about 20years+ out.
Are you saying you know more than CNN Money & Harry S. Dent?
Tina, it's admirable that you sacrificed so much for your children. I admire that. Perhaps I was out of line with my comments about that, and for that I apologize. I don't have, nor do I ever want children so I have no idea what that's like.
And although you genuinely seem like a good person, who is just trying to make a living through Quixtar, you're not in the majority. They say a few bad apples spoil the bunch, and it's true in this "business". There is a huge gray area in many aspects of Quixtar. Of course people always mention "I'll be free in a few years" or "I'm not going to trade hours for dollars. A boss tells you when to eat, work, go to the bathroom etc etc etc"
In Quixtar you're also beign told when to do things. With a job, you get time off, when you want it. At least with my experience, Quixtar is NOT willing to work around your schedule. You're toldto be at this meeting, at this time, or this seminar, rally, function etc etc etc.
I can only speak from my experiences in Quixtar. And while I admit, I refused to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on tapes, books, CD's seminars, rallies and functions, I really don't think that should effect your success in Quixtar. I've run, my own, successful, business for 9 years now, and I've NEVER had to read, listen to motivational tapes, or listen to inspirational speeches to achieve success in my business. To me, in order to succeed, you just have to have business savvy, and know what the hell you're doing.
Most IBO's have no idea on how to run a business and have no idea what it takes to be successful in business and, to me, this is why most of them fail. It's not due to lack of effort, but due to lack of education.
The overpriced products don't help. While The quality of SA8 and Nutralite are better quality than Tide or Centrum, it's almost impossible to convince somebody to spend so much more money (and a lot of people can't afford it) on products that, for all intents and purposes, do the same thing.
I like to use the car analogy. Just because a Corvette is much nicer looking, and flashier than say, a Kia, it costs much more and for all intents and purposes it does the same thing but costs $35,000 more. They both get you from point A to point B.
Like I said, I had a bad experience in Quixtar. I was constantly pressured to attend rallies, seminars and functions, after I was told it was my OWN business and I was allowed to make my own decisions, and work at my own pace. I was NEVER told to retail products (although I did and that's where I made most of, the very little money I made, when I was involved with Quixtar) but as soon as I said I didn't have the money to pay $500 for "Dream Night" (or whatever it was called) I was then told to get out and reatil the products to make the money. That type of thing pissed me off. I thought I owned my own business. Business owners are not told what, business decisions to make. Business owners make their own decisions on what the feel is best for their business, and in my opinion, spending upwards of $1000 for a weekend (and 14 hours on a bus) was NOT in the best interest of my business. Therefore I was looked down upon, and nobody would associate with me. When I started questioning certain aspects of the business, even my friend, of 9 years (who got sponsored me) cut off all contacts with me.
All of this really got to me. But NOTHING pissed me off more, and made my decision easier, than what happened at a weekly meeting. I mentioned something about my fiance (at the time, my wife now) not wanting to be involved with Quixtar, and some complete stranger told me and I quote, and I'll never forget this "If she can't support you and your dream, then you should find someboys else who can support you." I wanted to punch that guy right in the throat. The NERVE of that guy! It still pisses me off, even 3 years later. Yeah, I'm going to leave the woman I've loved for 10 years, who's been with me through thick and thin, for a bunch of cheap suit wearing , XS drinking, money hungry drones? I think not!
I walked out of the meeting room and NEVER returned.
I know this has run really long, but I figured I'd let you know exactly where I'm coming from and why I urge people to stay away from this garbage.
I close it with this, maybe things have changed, and I'm sure all groups are not like the one I was involved in (which was LTD) but, speaking as a business owner and someone who is, maybe not filthy rich, but successful (at least I feel I'm successful) while there may be money t be had in Quixtar, it's just not likely that the average person will ever retire from Quixtar.
Facts are the average IBO makes $115 a month (before taxes and expenses) or $2.67 and hour (working 10-15 hours a week). In my opinion it's better for the average person, looking for more money to work a 2nd job (which if you're putting 10-15 hours a week, aside to show the plan, drive all over the place, attend weekly meetings, seminars, functions ,rallies etc, is a job anyway) and make an extra $500 a month or so.
Sorry this was so long, but now maybe you'll understand where I'm coming from
That's OK Tina, I'll just somehow muddle along...
You don't want conversing - you want to preach your little long-winded diatribes to the unwashed minions here.
If you have to keep re-reading what I wrote - it just exposes the fraud of your "business knowledge". There are no "secret messages" abound.
You brought nothing that hasn't been said here before....
Make some claims about this "great" business - then when challanged and when inconsistancies are pointed out.... the business suddenly becomes an emotional "I'm saving the world and what are YOU doing to help out" tangent with the victim IBO being beat up by the "meanie" critics.
It's been fun, but your one-trick pony act gets old quick.
Off to bigger and better things! Au revoir!
"Live BELOW your means.
Works every time."
Free from Q* and Big Dog, you two (of the many) such big idiot out there. Live beyond your means day and day out? How about getting your ass to work when an opportunity is given to you so that you won't have to live below your means for the rest of your life? No wonder people like you are losers and quitters. I have met them, I still do. One such good memory was with a guy who told me that he can't come to the meetings because he just doesn't feel like getting out in the evenings; he loves the home coziness and there "is always something good" to watch on TV. Laughable at best! So, let him stay broke for the rest of his life.
Hey thanks "Anonymous" for that insight.
Nope, I don't live beyond my means - actually the opposite.
Had to learn that lesson the hard way many moons ago.
Care to explain why "living below your means" is such bad advice for any income level?
Here's a quick question - how do you IBO's "qualify" your prospects (besides them fogging a mirror)so you can weed out "the losers"?
I know that question is written in some funky foreign language - but try to comprehend.
Tina, you are entitled to your opinion of course, but quixtar's own numbers support my statements. IBOs average
.23 customers, or 1 customer for about 4 IBOs. $115 average income.
You claim that you show 1-4 plans per week, which is good. But your plan must not be very convincing if you show them, register them and then they do nothing. What did you show them?
If it works for you, that's great but the final assessment is really how you and your downline perform collectively. If your downline lose so you can prosper, is it really a good opportunity? I know that some people succeed in quixtar, but in almost every case, unless you're a pure retail IBO, you will have downline who lose money. It's just the nature of a pyramidal compensation plan. (legal pyramid)
Hey "Anonymous"
Here a quote you'd might like:
"If your outgoing is greater than your income - your upkeep will be your downfall"
Know who said that - my old Double Diamond Fred Harteis !!!!!!
I've even heard Dexter say this (probably where Fred got it )- so Diamonds & Crowns preach this nugget.
ARE YOU TELLING US "ANONYMOUS" THAT YOU ARE SMARTER THAN A DOUBLE DIAMOND AND A CROWN AMBASSADOR????
Here's another Fred "nugget" - treat your savings & investments as a bill you pay every month.
I've used those nuggets to build a nice nest egg - good advice is good advice.
Big Dog,
I'll make this brief (finally! ha! ha!). Anyway, I have to agree with the MAJORITY of what you said. I am very sorry you met some real idiots. They're everywhere. In this business and everywhere else. I'm sorry you had to encounter them. They really have no right (especially a stranger) to tell you what to do in your personal life.
I'm part of wwdb and yes, I've encountered them in wwdb as well. When we do, my hubby & I look at each other and smile & shake our heads. We know that approach and self-righteous attitude will NEVER work. It's people like that who do indeed, give this business a bad name & reputation.
We do try to build it with integrity & honesty. We try our best to listen to what our prospects & new IBO's want out of it and keep it to that level. For example, if they just want to be a pro-sumer, we're not going to 'hound' them to come to meetings! We have had friends (old & new) be in and out of this business and we still love them. We have not "cut off" contact with anyone. Maybe we're in the minority. If so, I think that's sad.
The only thing I really do have to point out (sorry), is that you really can't compare Nutrilite with Centrum or most other brands of vitamins. Most others don't dissolve which means they do nothing for you. We've compared to most everything out there. Sorry but I have to defend the quality! Most are also synthetic vs. organical plant based. I do agree that some people just plain can't afford it. I understand that. That's why we have alternatives like Daily & the new Simply Nutrilite supplements.
It sounds like you're doing quite well. I am happy for you. I really am. I hear about enough struggle out there. It's nice to hear about people who are really doing well.
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Free from Q*,
You're the only one who seems to think I am not answering "challenges". I have answered all questions and addressed all accusations.
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Anonymous,
I understand your passion. However, perhaps you could re-word your statements & refrain from name calling. That also gives us IBO's and this business a bad name. Thanks and keep building!
Tina
Well, come on Anonymous.....us "big idiot" are just waiting to be enlightened.
Dang, I've just got to stop using colloquial English here.
I love these, hit and run, posters that hide behind the curtain of anonymity.
So Free From Q* and I are "idiots" because our advice to people is not to live above their means? I guess an almighty king pin, like yourself, must not have to worry about such trivial things.
Why all the name calling? Are you that immature or are you just angry because you're failing? Either way, if you're going to post here, be mature about it and grow up!
Take Tina's advice, and quit the name calling. Because she's right, it does more harm than good for your business and the other IBO's associated with it.
You don't like our opinions? That's fine, nobody says you have to agree with us. But, if you wanna have a debate here, do it in a mature manner or you'll never have any credibility in your statements.
And Tina, I wish you nothing but the best in your pursuit of success.
I am very sorry i am not as all-knowing as Harry Dent. But as far as my credentials, i am a series 60 licensed investment advisor. That is not what i do for a living mind you, But i comend your religious CNN following and hope it brings you prosperity. I will stick to IBD and Value line. On a side note not even guys like Warren Buffet would have the audascity to say they knew what the market will look like in the next two years.
Hope your Q business brings you great wealth before Alticor is finally finishes it's implosion.
Tina rocks!
Jace
Looks like Mr.Passion...err...Anonymous has no nugget to enlighten us.
Then again, those lines to use the library computer can get really long!
That was extremely well articulated Truth.
My personal opinion is that Amway/Quixtar had better do A LOT of sales training in order to achieve what you are saying.
I believe that you CAN build value into almost ANY product that will make it move off the shelf at a profit for everyone, and with the end user walking away feeling satisfied.
I've been on a number of Carribean vacations and overpaid to a number of vendors for necklaces, paintings, rum and the like. However, I walked away feeling good about it because haggling was fun, the person was nice, and part of the memory for that thing is the relationship I developed with the seller.
The problem, as I see it, it the ENTIRE leadership of Amway distributors is poorly schooled in actually marketing products. They have spent their Amway careers building up a network primarily to consume their motivation, not establish value in the products Amway is a vendor for. This whole mantra of buying from yourself and teaching others to do the same did not, and as far as I can see, does not address how to market products.
I know in my experience that if there was a product demo put on by the company the same weekend as a major function, I would be counseled by my upline to go to the function put on by the leaders.
IF, and I do mean IF, Amway wants to really succeed, then they have to ensure that the IBO's are able to do what your wife did with the vacuums.
This means it will take more time to make less money in the long run. You can only build value one CUSTOMER at a time, as opposed to recruiting a few people per plan showing. You cannot realistically expect a huge turnout in a hotel room for an Amway product demo. I believe it will have to be one on one.
It will also mean LESS money to the current leaders if the business becomes more product based (substance) as opposed to get rich and live free walking the beaches of the world based (hype).
Great Post.
Posted by: rocket | January 22, 2008 7:37 AM