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December 22, 2007
Four Elements for a legal Quixtar
By Truth in Quixtar
Today I was surfing some of the past articles over on the Quixtar Ada-Tudes blog for some interesting reading. As I figured I came across an article that caught my attention. Gary VanderVen who is Quixtar's director of Business Conduct and Rules wrote an article titled "What makes Quixtar Legal". In this article he describes that there is no such thing as a legal pyramid scheme, and since they say Quixtar is legal, it is not a pyramid scheme.
He then goes on to list "four key elements" that makes the Quixtar compensation plan "legal and a model of integrity". I found these four elements interesting because there are three of them that I mostly agree with, and one that I don't think tells the whole story.
1. Sales-based compensation. Compensation in the Quixtar Plan is based on sales of products and services to consumers. An IBO who sponsors other IBOs earns income based on his own sales and on sales made by the IBOs he sponsors. Quixtar has various rules to assure that compensation is based on product sales.
This would be fine if it really was a plan that pays for sales made by an IBO and on sales made by IBOs he/she sponsors. Unfortunately for Quixtar and Mr. VanderVen this is not reality at all. The reality is that Quixtar IBOs are selling to the IBOs that they sponsor. Some would argue that IBO purchases count as sales, I disagree but will save that argument for another article.
My main issue is that no one has clearly shown me another business that simply makes sales to other businesses that sell the same products. Does that even make sense? Doesn't for me. One would think that if you own a business that sells many different types of products, you would have a certain minor "element" to your business I like to call customers. The only customers I ever see in this business is IBOs as customers of Quixtar. As far as I am concerned that is not a business at all. At best what you have is a wholesale buying club.
Comments
Buddy, when are going to SHUT UP and focus on your own personal life? We DON'T CARE what you think. NOBODY who is looking for an opportunity CARES about what a guy who BITCHES about the opportunity MANY who BUILD upon prove how successful they are.
Proud IBO,
Thanks for your concern, but I have focused quite well on my personal life and things are going great.
I find it interesting that the best comment you have about the points made in the article is a foul-mouthed rant about how you think no one cares.
I do appreciate your comments though since every comment like the one you just left helps prove to people who read this site that the critics are telling the truth about the way IBOs act when challenged. Instead of actually making good points to defend their business, all they can do is get foul-mouthed and want us to keep quiet.
By the way those you claim have been successful don't look so successful when you realize that they have only made it off of the backs of those in their downline who lose money every month to line their pockets.
Steve,
Interesting read, interesting blog, thanks for the link.
You say - Some would argue that IBO purchases count as sales, I disagree but will save that argument for another article.
You may disagree, the FTC doesn't, as I outlined in AMWAY/QUIXTAR MYTH: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by IBOs
"By the way those you claim have been successful don't look so successful when you realize that they have only made it off of the backs of those in their downline who lose money every month to line their pockets."
Couldn't have said it better myself. I remember the function my wife and I were recognized as new Ruby's. We had 150 people at that function, and we had a private "pep-talk" from our upline diamond. It was great except he was stupid enough to leave a Diamond/Emerald sheet out showing the splits on the ticket sales. We had just put about $45K in his pocket. We never sponsored another personal after that, and quit promoting the funcions downline.
Insider,
I am well aware of your article where you have spun one paragraph of a three page letter to fit your view. Like I said it was an argument for another article, so stick around and in due time I will state my case.
Wow, how credible this blog is! What you say is good but don't forget that a franchise expands by sponsoring franchisees as well in order to grow. Volume is driven by clients. Here, you can have both, clients and IBOs. IBOs are also clients in themselves. Imagine each IBO as a substitute for a franchise in location X. This business is about expanding a chain of people affiliations as IBOs in lieu of a store chain. Point is, the author of this article bullshits a lot. He proves that he did quit based on his remark that "those you claim have been successful don't look so successful when you realize that they have only made it off of the backs of those in their downline who lose money every month to line their pockets." So, I guess that every store out there also makes it off of the backs of their clients who lose money every day, no? That's what I thought. For your info, I have met several of those at diamond, emerald and platinum levels on more than one occasion. This is real. And yes, keep on focusing on your own life and stop bullshitting. You look like a silly expert.
Some would argue that IBO purchases count as sales, I disagree but will save that argument for another article.
Those who would argue that IBO purchases count as sales would be wrong. In this article, Debra A. Valentine, General Counsel for the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, said in her 1998 talk on "Pyramid Schemes," the following:
"A lack of retail sales is also a red flag that a pyramid exists. Many pyramid schemes will claim that their product is selling like hot cakes. However, on closer examination, the sales occur only between people inside the pyramid structure or to new recruits joining the structure, not to consumers out in the general public."
Sales to customers outside the plan count; internal consumption by plan participants do not. It is as simple as that.
Galactic Quest: "Point is, the author of this article bullshits a lot. He proves that he did quit based on his remark that "those you claim have been successful don't look so successful when you realize that they have only made it off of the backs of those in their downline who lose money every month to line their pockets." So, I guess that every store out there also makes it off of the backs of their clients who lose money every day, no? That's what I thought."
Actually, yes, they do. Take Fred Meyer, for example. Clients come in, they lose money to gain groceries, and because they do that, Fred Meyer prospers. Yeah, that may be a weak argument, but yeah.
Captain: "Sales to customers outside the plan count; internal consumption by plan participants do not. It is as simple as that."
Agreed. Basically, the whole argument with this is technicality, nothing more. Yes, there isn't a rule against selling to IBOs as well, but many other businesses and people in general would agree that selling to yourselves doesn't constitute "real" sales. To me, it almost looks like money laundering. I know it isn't, but that 's what comes to mind. When I was shown this thing, my thoughts were mainly on figuring a way to market to people. How would I do it? Where would I do it? And how many others are in my area doing the same. Common business thinking. When I had a sit down with my would-be sponsor, he said it wasn't about the products, it was about the people. Get the people, and the products will sell on their own. Some part of that made sense then, and I spent two years wasting money and meeting/losing people, revolving door style. Should I have paid more attention to what was happening and fixed it? Sure, but by then I was flat broke, so I couldn't, so I cut my losses and got out to focus on me and what I needed to get back up. Ever since then, I've just seen no real good coming from the business, just wasted time and effort. Those of you making it are fortunate, and hopefully that fortune lasts and you're doing it ethically and with your client base's best interests in mind, rather than working off of document semantics and technicality, where if it says you can, however shady it looks, you do it.
Galactic Quest,
Are you no longer a Proud IBO, or did you actually think I would believe you were a different person?
So now I have to ask since your two posts contradict one another, do you want me to shut up, or is what I am saying good? Why the change of heart?
But just for fun let's take your scenario you wanted me to imagine and see what happens. Let's take McDonald's as our franchise, and imagine each IBO represents a McDonald's business owner in different locations.
So our McDonald's business owner at the top sponsors four other McDonald's businesses. So under the assumption that IBOs are clients too, each sponsored owner will buy and eat their own products, while making only about 4% of their sales to actual customers.
But then let's say those four sponsor four and those four sponsor four and those four sponsor four and on and on and on and.... we could keep going all day long with this but in the end we have a bunch of business owners buying and consuming 96% of their sales and only selling 4% to actual customers.
I don't know what business world you live in but I don't know of another business model that is fine with the owner purchasing and consuming 96% of the sales.
I have also met many of those Diamonds, Emeralds, Platinums, etc. and I have no idea what that has to do with what I wrote. The point still stands on how their money was made. BTW, do you use the foul language when you meet those Diamonds?
Once again though I thank you for your concern about the focus on my life, as I said before things have been going great both personally and financially especially ever since I stopped putting my money in my upline's pocket by buying tools.
Captain - did you read the link I gave earlier? There are two separate FTC authorities saying internal consumption [i]can[/i] count. Whereas your quote only says exactly what I said - [i]it's a red flag[/i]. Seeing someone trying to break into a car is a red flag a burglary is happening - but it maybe just someone who locked their keys in the care. A "red flag" means it needs investigation, it doesn't mean it is so. It astounds me how poor some peoples logic is in these issues. Just because all blue whales are big does not mean all big things are whales. Just because illegal pyramids may be primarily internal consumption does not mean primarily internal consumption means it's an illegal pyramid. As the FTC clearly stated in the articles I quoted, it depends on motivation.
Truth, honestly, I truly don't care what you think. You are just a shadow. A bad one that needs to be brushed off.
Captain and Observer, your statements make as much sense as Truth's statements.
"Truth, honestly, I truly don't care what you think. You are just a shadow. A bad one that needs to be brushed off."
So what are you still doing here? Do you normally waste your time on things you don't care about? Not really good habits for a big time business man. I assume you don't have an answer to my questions since you seem to not be able to answer them.
ibofightback wrote: You say - Some would argue that IBO purchases count as sales, I disagree but will save that argument for another article.
You may disagree, the FTC doesn't, as I outlined in AMWAY/QUIXTAR MYTH: It's a pyramid if most products are bought by IBOs
Joe: Whatever, but it's still the most lousy opportunity in the US and Canada, maybe the world....
BTW, when I was an IBO, my upline said joining Amway was exactly like joining Costco, a wholesaler's club.
"So what are you still doing here?"
This is what I'm doing; keeping guys like you active, outspoken and zealous till the point you will be taken offline and to jail for libel.
"This is what I'm doing; keeping guys like you active, outspoken and zealous till the point you will be taken offline and to jail for libel."
ROFLMBO!!!!!!
Thanks I needed a good laugh.
So you are hoping to trap me in some sort of libel, even though you most likely couldn't trap a rock, yet you can't even back up your claim of me lying on this site. So good luck with that!!
I just had a relative who is a newbie try to explain this to me. When I asked if this is Amway by internet he quickly said no. He wouldn't/couldn't tell me what the actual product being sold was for a good twenty minutes and finally admitted it is related to Amway. I pointed out to him it sounds like a pyramid scheme which he denied but his math was very very fuzzy. I finally realized it is just a bulk buying club on the internet at a minimum and is a pyramid scheme if you are looking for the big bucks. He tried to explain to me how this is a franchise. Franchises sell products to people outside the "club" and can stand on their own as a self sufficient business otherwise they fail (ie a McDonalds or other franchise). This is not a true franchise because your success is based on other people's monthly sales. Also he was adament that people can reach the diamond level and sit back and just retire without having to do much but had no answer to what happens when recessions hit, people can't afford to buy their monthly quota. Bottom line is, the products are overpriced and if the products don't sell, no one is making money. I think a very few people get rich off of this pyramid scheme.
Galactic must think that name-calling, and insults, instead of examples and intelligent dialogue, works in the real world; I guess in his world, the, a world of lackeys, and yes men (and woman) that does work. In fact, I know it works because I was in it. It's a world where it's ok for certain people to say things and nobody questions them because they would get a beat-down if they did.
It's a world where when people say things, there is no evidence to back up the claim, and if there is it's one example. I could go on and on, but the people that were in the "biz" know what I'm talking about.
And If you didn't get my point, Galactic, out here in the real world you actually have to come up with something a little more concrete then profanity and insults when discussing something. It just makes the whole world work better when people can have a cival conversation.
Just because illegal pyramids may be primarily internal consumption does not mean primarily internal consumption means it's an illegal pyramid. As the FTC clearly stated in the articles I quoted, it depends on motivation.
Since motivation is a hard one to enforce - how do you ensure the motivation is pure?
Raise the retailing requirements, or do not allow sales of items to IBOs for self-consumption to be allowed as part of the compensation.
sorry guys. i guess i still don't get why it's such a big deal to show other people how they can save time & money by purchasing through Quixtar (Amway) vs. Walmart, Costco, Target or some other big box store.
When compared to their true competition, the Quixtar prices have been proven to be cheaper in the areas of home cleaning products, Artistry, some Nutrilite products, XS (actually is same as Red Bull). There are other brand names we rep such as Formucare that are less expensive as well.
And now we can offer FREE SHIPPING with an order of $75 of Exclusive products.
So, you show someone how they can do all their shopping in a 1/2 hour a month and get it delivered to their door for the same price or less VERSUS spending HOURS & HOURS at a Walmart or a Costco, spending gas money, probably spending money on food because it takes so long to go there and shop so you have to stop for a meal....
Do you see my point? I don't see what the big deal is. I show people how they can get an IBO "membership" and they can purchase at discount (or wholesale) and save time.
I am the advertising for Quixtar/Amway.
Walmart has advertising to lure people into their stores. They put loss leaders in the front & purposefully put the necessities of the home in the back or in a middle isle. Ever notice that? It's a maze you have to go through to get what you want. In the meantime, you pass all these huge, brightly colored signs about how LOW the price is! I dare you to ask them their 'cost' on products sometime. I think your mind will be blown on how much of a profit they make off of each individual buyer! More than an IBO makes off of you purchasing your laundry soap & vitamins through them, I guarantee it.
If you purchase through an IBO, as an IBO, you're helping your family and another family. That's the bottom line.
I am out to educate as many family purchasing agents (mostly women) as I can!
Please, enlighten me as to why this is such a horrible business model for the average family.
"Please, enlighten me as to why this is such a horrible business model for the average family."
You mean besides the fact that you don't save money over Wal-mart, Costco, etc. and that only 3.4% of sales are actually made to customers.
Let me tell you something, no one cares one bit how much someone is making off of their purchase. They only care how much it costs them. To have to point to how much less an IBO makes off of a purchase is an issue for a business owner that the consumer could care less about.
You said it all when you say you show people how to get an IBO "membership". Just another example that the products cannot be sold to customers at retail price. As far as I am concerned that doesn't make it a business, it makes it a buying club. I don't know of one actual business, much less "franchise" that teaches it's owners to "Buy from yourself, and teach others to do the same."
Tina said: sorry guys. i guess i still don't get why it's such a big deal to show other people how they can save time & money by purchasing through Quixtar (Amway) vs. Walmart, Costco, Target or some other big box store.
Joe says: Problem is you don't save money by purchasing from Quixtar. Prove me wrong if you can.
Tina said: When compared to their true competition, the Quixtar prices have been proven to be cheaper in the areas of home cleaning products, Artistry, some Nutrilite products, XS (actually is same as Red Bull). There are other brand names we rep such as Formucare that are less expensive as well.
Joe says: It's subjective. Quixtar stuff is generic in name but premium in prices.
Tina says: And now we can offer FREE SHIPPING with an order of $75 of Exclusive products.
And you can get free shipping by not purchasing from Quixtar. Just go to Walmart and save!!!
Tina says: So, you show someone how they can do all their shopping in a 1/2 hour a month and get it delivered to their door for the same price or less VERSUS spending HOURS & HOURS at a Walmart or a Costco, spending gas money, probably spending money on food because it takes so long to go there and shop so you have to stop for a meal....
Joe says: You still need to go to the store to buy milk, eggs, bread. Why
go thru quixtar and still have to go to the store anyway?
Tina said: Do you see my point? I don't see what the big deal is. I show people how they can get an IBO "membership" and they can purchase at discount (or wholesale) and save time.
Joe says: Or you can get a Costco membership and get even better value.
Tina said: I am the advertising for Quixtar/Amway.
Joe says: Person to person is the most inefficient way to do that.
Tina said: Walmart has advertising to lure people into their stores. They put loss leaders in the front & purposefully put the necessities of the home in the back or in a middle isle. Ever notice that? It's a maze you have to go through to get what you want. In the meantime, you pass all these huge, brightly colored signs about how LOW the price is! I dare you to ask them their 'cost' on products sometime. I think your mind will be blown on how much of a profit they make off of each individual buyer! More than an IBO makes off of you purchasing your laundry soap & vitamins through them, I guarantee it.
Joe says: Walmart has a great strategy don't they?
Tina said: Please, enlighten me as to why this is such a horrible business model for the average family.
Joe says: Because the prices are higher than most retailers and if you are on the system, you are paying to learn how to distribute products inefficiently.
Truth & JC,
You guys seem insistent on pricing. I don't know where you live but the Quixtar prices that I pointed out, for my purposes ARE less expensive. I am always doing price comparisons. Oh, and, for the record, I don't buy soley on price. Never have. Never will. I make my purchasing decisions based on several things (like most Americans) such as quality, convenience, need, price, etc. When all things are equal, price will be the determining factor. Rarely are all things equal. :-)
As far as getting a Costco (or Sam's) membership....ummmmm...I actually had one for two years. When I was SINGLE. Meaning: no kids to lug to the store with me. I didn't go once. Not one time. Reason? Because the store was more than a 1/2 hour from my home. Not worth the drive! Besides, most of the stuff is generic and in bulk. Now that I have kids, my time is even more valuable & I feel even more strongly about the drive not being worth it. I hate going to the local Walmart store. Not because I rep products through Quixtar but because I just hate the huge parking lots, the maze to eventually, finally find the product(s) I need, the masses of people wandering aimlessly around, waiting in a long line only to come across a grumpy, underpaid, unambitious check out clerk. Keep in mind, once in awhile I run into a smiling, friendly face and that is SO refreshing! I have my grumpy days too! ;-)
One other thing: do you guys really not understand how the price of gas impacts? It's interesting how you're so eager to add in the price of gas when discussing the 'cons' of building a Quixtar biz but it's no big deal when driving an hour (one way) to a Costco just to buy crap in bulk.
Joe, it's one thing to have to go to the grocery store. It's another to have to go to the grocery store AND Walmart AND the drug store AND the hardware store AND the electronics stores, etc. Quixtar has it all "under one roof". I've actually started looking into having "Simon Delivery" deliver my groceries because I HATE spending my time that way. I have sooo many other things I'd rather be doing that would be more productive.
Truth, if I can get a girlfriend or a fellow mom wholesale (discount) pricing, then I'm going to. That's a self-less thing to do. I could make MORE money off of them by selling them products at retail but then again, my goal is to HELP families save money.
Now, I do retail to businesses in the B2B program AND I retail to 'strangers' when an occasional sale arises. I have no problem in the retailing area. But again, my goal is not only to put healthy & high quality products into people's hands but to also HELP FAMILIES SAVE TIME & MONEY!
Guys, it's clear we will NEVER agree. I hated big box discount stores even before Quixtar! So, arguing with me is a moot point. You won't win me over.
Especially with a comment from Joe like: Walmart's got a great strategy, don't they?
You guys on Joe's side must have really cringed when you read that one. All that told me is that Joe must be somehow being compensated by Walmart. Either that or he's a complete & total moron who hates Quixtar just for being Quixtar.
And Truth, who cares if Quixtar is the only one with their model? Which of course, they are not. Have you heard of Melaleuca? They actually FORCE the "new member" to purchase a monthly minimum just to continue being a member. Quixtar requires no such thing.
You know what I find guys? We're just different people. We are of a different breed. A different caliber. We find value & quality in very different things.
I don't believe we will ever agree. I can put cold, hard facts in front of you and you'll find something wrong with it. That's fine. Let's just agree to disagree.
I still wish you the very best. Just do the next right thing and the next right thing will happen.
Tina said: You guys on Joe's side must have really cringed when you read that one. All that told me is that Joe must be somehow being compensated by Walmart. Either that or he's a complete & total moron who hates Quixtar just for being Quixtar.
Joe says: Tina, what happens to most conmen who lie to people to gain financially? They usually end up in jail.
"We make no money from selling tapes and seminars" was the mantra some years ago. A HUGE lie. There have been no consequences.
Millions have lost probably billions from the scam.
The vast majority of IBOs make nothing or lose money.
How is this a good opportunity for the average guy who signs up?
Joe: "Millions have lost probably billions from the scam.
The vast majority of IBOs make nothing or lose money.
How is this a good opportunity for the average guy who signs up? "
Joe,
I have yet to see evidence of a "scam". Have some diamonds (or any other level, for that matter) lied? A resounding YES! They have. But that does NOT make it a scam! We all know that you start making an additional income from the marketing side once you reach a certain level (ie: once you EARN it). That's no lie and that's no secret.
99.99999% of the time that the "vast majority" of IBO's don't make money or even lose money is because of two reasons: 1. they were misled and blindly followed foolish leadership or, 2. they didn't do anything - they didn't switch where they purchased, they didn't show a plan, they didn't retail, they didn't do anything. And that's just plain truth.
It's one of the very best opportunities out there....for the average guy or gal. IF you follow the proven plan.
It really isn't, JC. I agree that the folks at Amway started out with a good idea of helping the average guy break his mold and make some good money. It has just degenerated into a money pit scheme. Though they don't demand someone to be on autoship, they are told over and over again in the mentoring organizations that to be a leader, one has do to at least 100 PV if they are single. Also, when you take a look at the dollar-to-PV ratio, it is heavily rigged against you when it comes to making retail commissions or sales profits unless you sell a very large amount of PV, and I mean large. For example, the air purifier, now that I think is about 100-200 PV, whereas the cost is tremendous. When you make a powerful sell and the customer buys at the 30% marked down price, then first off, you make no retail profit and the sales commission check you get back, for this particular sale is a joke. My concern is with the compensation to price ratio. When doing 100 PV or showing someone how to do 100 PV as a customer, should warrant more money than just a measly $8 bonus check.
Also, Tina, you make a good and decent valid point about the amount of gas someone wastes when it comes to going to Wal-Mart for 1/2 hour drive. However, there still a considerable amount of gas spent on delivery of your products, if we are just looking at the environmental aspects. As well, most Americans don't plan a month ahead on what household goods they are going to buy. What I mean is that when you have a child and you find yourself in a situation where you are going to need more paper-plates than you have because of a last minute change, you can't just go onto Quixtar and order it and have it delivered the same day. That is why most folks will go to local stores for everyday needs including household goods. Not all folks are as disciplined about their monthly consumptions to order in advance what they are going to need.
And as a single person, I do not spend nearly as much as it costs to do 100 PV in a month. My monthly personal consumption of the household goods and nutrition supplies is about $100 at most. This is no where near enough money to do 100 PV.
If you are comparing Quixtar to other similar opportunities out there, they are not THE BEST out there. They are one of the oldest, but old doesn't mean gold. The high quality goods have to be price-valued and $78 for one month supplement is pretty expensive, especially to the target audience of health conscious adults who have enough concerns with health insurance and whatever other medication they are taking like Lipitor. I think that when the Quixtar folks offer more for the dollar, the retail side will become profitable, and customers will hang around for a longer time.
So Tina, you admit that the diamonds lied. They lied and profited from those lies. IMO, it makes them conmen.
You also say that the vast majority of IBOs are mislead or followed foolish leadership.
Hello? Anyone home?
Your admmitance of these things just verifies that some of these leaders are bound to lead you to financial ruin if you follw them.
Why not promote the lottery as a way to get rich? That way you don't have to attend meetings and the odds of you succeeding in quixtar are about the same odds of you winning the lottery.
Chaos12 wrote: Also, Tina, you make a good and decent valid point about the amount of gas someone wastes when it comes to going to Wal-Mart for 1/2 hour drive. However, there still a considerable amount of gas spent on delivery of your products, if we are just looking at the environmental aspects.
Tina: huh? We don't deliver. You order online & get it shipped to wherever you want it shipped to.
Chaos12 wrote: As well, most Americans don't plan a month ahead on what household goods they are going to buy. What I mean is that when you have a child and you find yourself in a situation where you are going to need more paper-plates than you have because of a last minute change, you can't just go onto Quixtar and order it and have it delivered the same day. That is why most folks will go to local stores for everyday needs including household goods. Not all folks are as disciplined about their monthly consumptions to order in advance what they are going to need.
Tina: I agree that you can't go to Quixtar for "last minute" stuff. Also, not budgeting and not planning is a bad habit that can be changed...IF one is willing and has a desire to change that habit. For example, if one wants to truly save money, then they WILL have a budget or at least have some idea of what they purchase on a regular basis each month. Besides, that's easy to determine: analyze the previous 3 months of purchases and go from there. I've helped enough people set up a ditto that I know what it takes. Pretty straightforward. It's just another thing that we offer to teach.
Chaos12 wrote: And as a single person, I do not spend nearly as much as it costs to do 100 PV in a month. My monthly personal consumption of the household goods and nutrition supplies is about $100 at most. This is no where near enough money to do 100 PV.
Tina: Wow. I can't imagine spending that little on monthly consumables AND nutrition! I think I may have spent that in high school. But even in college, I purchased tp, paper towels, toothpaste, shampoo, vitamins, cleaning products, laundry products, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure it was at least a hundred a month. You'd be surprised Chaos12, when we interview people (from singles to couples to families of four & more), I've never encountered such a low amount. If and when people are TRULY honest, we find it's amazing what we spend per month and the frivolous things we spend it on (candy bars, Starbucks, lotto tickets). We don't ever teach or encourage people to buy PV/BV. We simply teach people to change where they make their purchases. Just switch. Buy the same or comparable product through Quixtar vs. the competition. And don't spend more. That would be silly. Our goal is for them to spend the same (and get paid) or spend less (and still get paid).
Chaos12 wrote: If you are comparing Quixtar to other similar opportunities out there, they are not THE BEST out there. They are one of the oldest, but old doesn't mean gold.
Tina: I said it was one of the best. I never said it was the best. That's too subjective of a term.
Chaos12 wrote: The high quality goods have to be price-valued and $78 for one month supplement is pretty expensive, especially to the target audience of health conscious adults who have enough concerns with health insurance and whatever other medication they are taking like Lipitor. I think that when the Quixtar folks offer more for the dollar, the retail side will become profitable, and customers will hang around for a longer time.
Tina: Please get updated on your info. Yes, we offer the uncomparable Double X (I assume that's what you were referring to). But we also offer Daily 90 or Daily 180 for MUCH LESS than the discount store brands of One a Day & Centrum. We also offer Simply Nutrilite packages for Men & Women as well as excellent supplements for kids - which in today's world of preservatives & fast-food is essential.
JC wrote: You also say that the vast majority of IBOs are mislead or followed foolish leadership.
Tina: No JC. Please get it right. I said that 99.99999% of the time, the vast majority of IBO's do not succeed in this business because of one of two things: 1. They are mislead, or blindly followed foolish leadership. or, 2. they didn't even try to make it work. Re-read what I wrote.
Foolish leadership & liars, by the way, exist EVERYWHERE in EVERY INDUSTRY, ORGANIZATION, CHURCH, FAMILY, SCHOOL, etc. It's not exclusive to this business. Doesn't make it right. But it's not exclusive to us.
JC wrote: Why not promote the lottery as a way to get rich? That way you don't have to attend meetings and the odds of you succeeding in quixtar are about the same odds of you winning the lottery.
Tina: First of all, you don't have to attend meetings to make money in this opportunity. If you just want to retail, go for it! Quixtar University provides a ton of FREE online training. Nothing is mandatory.
By the way Joe, if you want to waste your dollars going after the lotto....go ahead! No one is stopping you. Good luck! ;-)
There are a few people--a niche if you will--whom ordering from a catalog and having it delivered to their door is their preferred way of shopping. But there is a reason why big boxes exist and catalog sales haven't peaked above 3% of total retail in a long, long time. Big boxes offer several advantages.
One is usually price. I don't know what products and sizes you are comparing, Tina, but on a basic level, big boxes are more efficient than MLM. MLM pays an overhead of at least 34% as bonus money back to IBO's. In contrast, big boxes usually have an overhead of 15% to 20%. Volume is another monetary advantage, as a box of Tide on a shelf at Wal-Mart went in the same truck as a box found at the next Wal-Mart a few miles down the road. Shipping huge quantities to multiple locales is less expensive then shipping small quantities to one. I'm not calling you a liar, Tina, but I'd love to see your price comparisons, and I know I can beat them. Yes Quixtar has free shipping for orders of $75 or more, but that budget has to come from somewhere, and it probably adds another few pennies per product.
Another advantage big boxes have is instant availability. If you run out of diapers today, Tina, are you going to order from Quixtar, or run out to Target? Most people aren't organized enough to never run out of product, even if they buy in bulk. Besides, you never can account for all variables. For example, the time your Aunt/Uncle and three kids stopped buy for a visit and you took them to the best Mexican food restaurant that did numbers on their stomaches. Sometimes you just have to run out and buy some toilet paper NOW!
The third advantage big boxes have is the ability to shop with more than just sight and sound. Ever try on clothes online? Or how about smell the leather on a new pair of shoes online? And I don't know about you, but I'm extremely picky about my produce and meat, and don't want anyone else picking them for me. And yes, I'm a parent of a rather quick two-year-old, which does make shopping an adventure at times.
Last advantage of big boxes is community. People are communal animals, and enjoy spending time with each other. You would think some of the most tecno-savvy people, teens to mid-twenties, would be a huge online shopping market. Yet, they don't buy that much online? Ever wonder why? Because they'd rather spend time hanging out at the mall. Most online shoppers are professionals and mothers like Tina. Even so, last time I looked, online shopping still doesn't represent anything more than 3% of total retail.
In the end, it is possible to build a profitable retail MLM business, but you have to find other people like Tina who fit the niche. Most people still prefer the big boxes, and most likely always will for the forseeable future.
"Tina: huh? We don't deliver. You order online & get it shipped to wherever you want it shipped to."
Um, I don't know about you but my orders always came from some guy in a truck and I do believe that truck ran on gas...all day.
Not to mention shipments that ship by planes which I believe use fuel as well to operate.
Tina said: Foolish leadership & liars, by the way, exist EVERYWHERE in EVERY INDUSTRY, ORGANIZATION, CHURCH, FAMILY, SCHOOL, etc. It's not exclusive to this business. Doesn't make it right. But it's not exclusive to us.
Joe says: But why is it so prevalent in Quixtar - more so than these other venues you mentioned?
Tina said: Tina: First of all, you don't have to attend meetings to make money in this opportunity. If you just want to retail, go for it! Quixtar University provides a ton of FREE online training. Nothing is mandatory.
Joe says: And how much help will you get from upline if you don't attend meetings? And how can you retail when Quixtar's prices are so high? Most people cannot and do not like to sell.
Dmm, outstanding analysis on the big box vs. Quixtar shopping approach.
Tina:But even in college, I purchased tp, paper towels, toothpaste, shampoo, vitamins, cleaning products, laundry products, etc. etc. etc. I'm sure it was at least a hundred a month. You'd be surprised Chaos12, when we interview people (from singles to couples to families of four & more), I've never encountered such a low amount. If and when people are TRULY honest, we find it's amazing what we spend per month and the frivolous things we spend it on (candy bars, Starbucks, lotto tickets).
Chaos12: I don't mean to sound rude, but it sounds like you were accusing folks such as myself of being dishonest when it comes to how much we spend on household goods.
Let me be specific, the $100 I was mentioning was for soap/cleaning and nutritional products. I don't usually spend $4.70 on toothpaste, not even the glorified Crest or Colgate Dentist Recommended stuff. I get the same benefits as I would with the Glister with other less-priced brands. I was taught to control my consumption and be miserly with finances when it came to monthly personal expenses at a young age. From learning from other people's experiences, I am not neccesarily brand loyal to a particular product brand. When I was in Quixtar, most of the DITTO that my upline Diamond help me set up left me with nothing more than a whole bunch of stocked up inventory. Many times, and I can only speak of the organization that I was in: Kumar/Gala in BWW, lots of IBOs would end up overconsuming their products just to meet the 100 PV goal. I am not saying that WWDB promotes this, as I am sure they most likely don't. In terms of retailing, the Quixtar University education isn't all that much different as if you were to take sales education material that is free on the Internet or in library books and apply it to the product line.
I think dmm summed up things pretty nicely when discussing the shopping side of the business. Every customer I have had stopped DITTO after a max of about 8 months. Before you blame me of not being educated in sales training on Quixtar products, I would like to go into a little detail on how I would prepare for product demos and demonstrations. I read all of Frank Betgers material on his years of sales, as well as Dale Carnegie material and the Power of Approachability. I took professional sales courses at a local community college as well as having my next door neighbor who was a sales consultant give me some tips on sales.
The customers I had just didn't find enough benefit to really want to continue to buy Quixtar products over and over again. Looks as though you had better success. Congrats. But one thing that I have always had a problem with, when it came to retail, was that they would include the 30% retail as part of your personal income, when in fact, most of the items sold to my customers were at cost. They need to make the PV-to-dollar ratio a lot more even. 1 PV to $2.70 is a bit too much.
As for your comments regarding the shipping: what I meant was when you order something from Quixtar, it is going to be shipped from a distribution warehouse all the way in Ada, MI or somewhere in GA. The shipping wastes more gas than just taking the 1/2 hour drive to your Wal-Mart of Target or whatever other store. I can see your point with the nutritional supplements since there is a recommended dosage and each of them are exact 30 day supplies, so it might be pretty easy to be on DITTO for them. But the rest of it, even with the DITTO calculator is still not exact and so will eventually result in either overstock or you running to the store because of a last-minute change.
Dmm: There are a few people--a niche if you will--whom ordering from a catalog and having it delivered to their door is their preferred way of shopping. But there is a reason why big boxes exist and catalog sales haven't peaked above 3% of total retail in a long, long time.
Tina: Two questions, DMM, 1. Who's talking about catalog sales? and, 2. Where's your "proof" to backup your numbers?
Dmm: I'm not calling you a liar, Tina, but I'd love to see your price comparisons, and I know I can beat them.
Tina: What do you mean YOU can beat them? Do you work for a big box store? Do you manage one? Do you OWN one? What is your vested interest in competing so hard with Quixtar? I buy ONE 6.6 lb box of laundry detergent and it lasts SIX MONTHS or MORE for a family of four. I used to purchase Tide at least 1-2x per month!!! Not to mention the ENVIRONMENTAL and NON-TOXIC benefits. And in a world that is getting "greener", there is more of a want & need for our products.
I don't need to smell my shoes before I purchase them. Ha! ha! I go to the store to find out what size fits best then I purchase the very same shoe at MY store. Simple as that!
I do agree that there will be last minute items. No biggie. I also agree that retail shopping won't go away....completely. However, if you pay attention to world news, you will hear of retail chains closing stores left & right. I just watched a program (I believe it was msnbc) and it highlighted the owner of Macy's and the fact that they just closed down & sold more than 65 stores...they were planning to get rid of over 80 stores.
I don't know where you're getting your info., Dmm, but you'd better check again. The 18-25 year old market IS the fastest growing online shopper market in our economy. Plus, we exceeded 10% in July of 2006. What that means is: Currently, 10-12% of our Gross National Products are being purchased online. Keep in mind that it was at 3-5% in 2005. It's growing....and it's growing FAST. People DO value their time. Gas prices ARE getting higher. People DO value quality as well and are now looking at how their purchases are affecting their health & the environment. Not just their pocketbook.
Oh, I realize that there will always be the "cheapo's" and the broke-mentality who will always let pricing lead their purchases. In fact I have a friend who will drive all over the cities chasing coupons & "deals". Meanwhile, he has just wasted 2-3 days (per month!) of his life and all that gas just to save a few dollars! My husband and I just laugh and shake our heads. But we still love him dearly...just the same.
You know the saying...you can lead a thirsty horse to water....but you can't make him drink! ;-)
"Tina: huh? We don't deliver. You order online & get it shipped to wherever you want it shipped to."
Um, I don't know about you but my orders always came from some guy in a truck and I do believe that truck ran on gas...all day.
Not to mention shipments that ship by planes which I believe use fuel as well to operate.
Posted by: Truth | January 4, 2008 4:43 AM
Hey "truth",
How do you think all the "big box" stores get THEIR merchandise to their stores? hmmmmmm???? ;-)
Joe says: But why is it so prevalent in Quixtar - more so than these other venues you mentioned?
Tina: who says? where in the world is the proof in THAT statement? My goodness Joe, I don't know what world YOU live in but in MY world buddy...whoa....lying happens. Everywhere! Being manipulative & deceitful is fairly common in corporate america. Didn't you know that? I'm not saying it's smart or that it works for very long but...it IS prevalent. Watch "the Apprentice" sometime...that's a good example.
Joe says: And how much help will you get from upline if you don't attend meetings? And how can you retail when Quixtar's prices are so high? Most people cannot and do not like to sell.
Tina: OMG! Give it a rest already Joe! My goodness, my statement has nothing to do with upline or them helping you. And get over the fact that you think Quixtar's prices are so high. A vast majority of our population disagrees with you as Quixtar's sales are strong & growing! I disagree with you about the pricing so it doesn't do any good to bring it up to me. I am the purchaser for our home. I have saved both time and money by switching most of our household goods, some food items & our nutritional supplements to Quixtar. I used to have to go to the store a MINIMUM of 3-5 times per week. I HATED it! What a WASTE of my time! Now, I only have to go about once a week or once every 10 days. Yay!!!!!!! I fill my time with more productive things. And I have found that I have saved my family a MINIMUM of $200 per month!!!
From a woman's perspective, and from the perspective of the main purchaser of the home AND the main user of most of the consumables (meaning, cleaning & skin care products)....I would NEVER go back! I don't think you can speak from the same perspective and experience, Joe.
"How do you think all the "big box" stores get THEIR merchandise to their stores? hmmmmmm???? ;-)"
Gee I wonder? Apparently you missed the point. When the cost and effects of gas came into play your excuse was that you don't deliver. Well maybe you don't but UPS does and that still takes fuel which was the original point all along.
"How do you think all the "big box" stores get THEIR merchandise to their stores? hmmmmmm???? ;-)"
Gee I wonder? Apparently you missed the point. When the cost and effects of gas came into play your excuse was that you don't deliver. Well maybe you don't but UPS does and that still takes fuel which was the original point all along.
Posted by: Truth | January 5, 2008 1:30 AM
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But it's a moot point at best, Truth. Reason being, it applies to most delivery models. So, I guess we can throw that whole arguement out for both sides, eh?
"But it's a moot point at best, Truth. Reason being, it applies to most delivery models. So, I guess we can throw that whole arguement out for both sides, eh?"
So if it is moot point why did you bring it up in the first place? You were the one that started the whole thing about gas going to the store etc. Either way gas is getting used to get the product to your door.
Tina: who says? where in the world is the proof in THAT statement? My goodness Joe, I don't know what world YOU live in but in MY world buddy...whoa....lying happens. Everywhere! Being manipulative & deceitful is fairly common in corporate america. Didn't you know that? I'm not saying it's smart or that it works for very long but...it IS prevalent. Watch "the Apprentice" sometime...that's a good example.
Joe says: Some people may lie or cheat to move up the corporate ladder. But to lie about tools profits to thousands and thousands of people sounds like a consumer fraud scam. Do you think it's all okay now because big shots now openly admit that they profit from tools?
Anyone see a document explaining how you qualify for a tools cut and how much you get?
The tools business is a scam. You get enticed by a lifestyle supposedly achieved by quixtar and then told the key to success is the tools. But the real business is apparently the sale of tools.
Tina said: A vast majority of our population disagrees with you as Quixtar's sales are strong & growing! I disagree with you about the pricing so it doesn't do any good to bring it up to me.
Joe says: A vast majority? Read the above post, one 3-4% of stuff is sold to non IBOs. That means quixtar products are mainly self consumed by those who think quixtar will deliver a lifestyle of wealth. Once that dream ends, so does product loyalty to quixtar.
2007 4th Quarter numbers aren't available yet, but e-commerce in Q3 2007 accounted for a grand total of 3.4% of total US retail. My source? The US Census http://www.census.gov/mrts/www/data/html/07Q3.html
And yes the chart shows e-commerce is growing at a relatively steady pace when adjusted for inflation at about .25% a year. At this rate, by 2017, e-commerce will account for a grand total of about 5.9% of total retailing. Better get those plans for turning those big boxes into condos ready!
As to what is my vested interest in getting lower prices, that's simple. My wallet. If I can go to store A and spend X, or own store Q and spend 1.2X for basically the same goods, it's better for me to shop at store A. Unless of course, there are other advantages to my own store, such as convenience. If you re-read my last post, I refer to catalog shopping, because online shopping for material goods is not revolutionary, but the evolution of catalog shopping. In fact, most online shops refer to their sales pages as catalogs. And traditionally, only about 3% of the country shop for their material goods through catalogs. That makes it a niche. For you, Tina, shopping at home is something you prefer, but for the majority, we do not.
As for Macy's, the reason they are closing stores is because they are consolidating. Macy's owns several stores including a chain called Robison's Mays in the area I live. RM was bought out several years ago, and there is a local mall in my area that has both a RM and a Macy's. The RM closed its doors 12/31/07. This really doesn't have that much to do with online retailing, as at best, it's taken away a mere .6% from the 3% of catalog shoppers.
But that isn't the whole story either. One of the major growth internet industries are "ticket" items. How much business did airlines, rental car companies, movie theaters, etc., do from home based purchases before the internet? Sure some purchased using a phone, but very few. Today, these "ticket" companies do huge online sales, and account a big chunk of the .6% over the 3% mark in total retail sales online.
In the end, I say it is better for me, the average consumer, to buy the big box of Cheer that does 80 loads for $8.99 ($0.11/load) that lasts three or four months (family of 3 including a 2-year-old) instead of buying the equivalent from Quixtar. Especially when the detergent goes on sale for $8.49, and I buy two boxes.
Hi Truth!
Actually, I did not bring it up. I said it in response to all the previous complaints by critics about all the costs of building the quixtar business. One of their biggest complaints was the 'cost' of gas & shipping. They are not really valid points anymore. That's all I was trying to say. ;-)
Is Tina going to post price comparisons or not?
JC: "Is Tina going to post price comparisons or not?"
CK: Not
It IS a buying club only for the lazy. If you are not willing to sell to customers (which I do and have on ditto delivery for products--like power) then all you are doing is amassing PV on the distribution of product. Quixtar should pay me for turning people on to their stuff, and it doesn't come directly out of the pocket of the person who bought the stuff--it's in the price of the product. That price is competitive, sometimes higher, sometimes lower than what you'd find in stores.
What a toolish way to think. You may be able to get those Jedi mind tricks to work on the weak minded, but I'm no close. Bachelors in business and a Graduate Degree in Real Estate. The business is sound--it's people that screw it up. Guess what, people screw up every other business on earth, too. It happens on your job, if you have one, and if this is your job, then your ignorant remarks may have screwed with someone's thinking on the business. Quixtar may have faults--show me perfection in some earthly thing, and I'll show you someone who doesn't know what to look for--but this ain't one of them.
I know this was posted a while ago but Tina says : "When compared to their true competition, the Quixtar prices have been proven to be cheaper in the areas of home cleaning products, Artistry, some Nutrilite products, XS (actually is same as Red Bull). There are other brand names we rep such as Formucare that are less expensive as well."
Please prey tell, what is "true" competition. Is $9.60 for 10.5oz of Amway shampoo better than $5.49 for 25.4oz of Dove Shampoo?
Is $2.38 for an XS Protein bar, better than 1.44 for a Power Bar, Protein Bar?
Are XS Protein shakes at $35.95/12 (11oz) and 35g of protein, better than EAS Myoplex protein shakes at 10.99/4 (17oz) and 42g of protein?
Smart Menu Ketchup $3.00 compared to 2.69 for Heinz?
Sorry, but you can't possibly think that $14.00 for Tolsom after shave is better than $3.49 for Aqua Velva. What about your $9.00 shaving cream rather than $3.19 for Edge shaving Gel?
$20.00 for a generic razor over $7.99 for a Gillette Mach 3 razor?
You're really in deep if you can't see that Amway products are INCREDIBLY overpriced.
I'll stick to taking a 6 month supply of Centrum for $13.99 rather than a monthly supply of Double X for $60.00
I know your response, as most IBO's are taught, is to say something like "Oh but I spend Hours and hours in the store and I only spend 1/2 hour on Quixtar"
LOL! I have to laugh at that. I go grocery shopping, twice a week. It takes me no longer than a 1/2 hour each time I go, so I don't know why you spend hours and hours at the grocery store, but many people don't
Truth, you need to check out this article about the lack of retail sales in the Quitar business. I agree that VanderVen's point that commissions are based on sales is garbage. http://barristerquixtarlawsuit.blogspot.com/2007/11/mike-mohrs-testimony-part-1.html
Posted by: Steve | December 22, 2007 11:00 PM