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November 20, 2007
That Sounds familiar
By Truth in TEAM
"...Quixtar knows it's products are nearly impossible to sell, and that it's business opportunity is therefore not viable except as an illegal recruitment pyramid."
"...IBOs have no choice but to continue purchasing and consuming overpriced Quixtar products and recruiting new victims into the pyramid scheme, since that is the only way to make money with the Quixtar business opportunity."
The above quotes are taken from the Preliminary statement of the complaint that was filed by Orrin Woodward and others against Quixtar. Perhaps I am missing something here but don't those kinds of comments sound very familiar?
It is comments like those that the critics have been saying ever since Quixtar launched, and it was the pro-Quixtar crowd, including many TEAM IBOs who said the critics were lying. Critics said the products were priced too high and out of left field would come the supporters crying that the products were competitive and would say that the value of the Quixtar products were better (which by the way is a garbage excuse that I will be happy to destroy in a later post).
Critics would say that Quixtar was nothing more then a pyramid selling products to people they recruited. Once again the supporters started whining and crying about the FTC decision, the buy-back rule, and the 10 customer requirement. Of course the critics would make a good case that the FTC decision was not being followed, the buy-back rule was a joke, as well as the 10 customer requirement. Of course the supporters would simply say the critics were lying.
So where does that leave TEAM? Are they just a bunch of bitter, broke losers who were not cut out to be in business and were unwilling to do what they had to in order to be successful? So what's changed?
The way I see it nothing has changed. As I read the entire complaint it was apparent to me that the leaders knew what the critics were saying was right all along. They simply tried to correct it behind the scenes all the while continuing to tell the faithful downlines how great the business opportunity was. If all that is in the complaint is true then I admire the fact that the leaders were trying to get the prices lowered and make retailing easier. However, I can't help but find it at least unethical to continue to promote a business opportunity that they believed to be operating in an illegal pyramid fashion.
Comments
If influence equals Integrity plus Relationship Skills, then I'd say the Quixtar Blog is far from influential.
Nothing these guys say impresses me, especially because anyone can have an opinion, but few actually have the results to back up their claims.
For all those who criticize Team Leadership, show me results that support the Quixtar Greatness. I haven't seen it yet, and I was afiliated for three years.
Actions speak more loudly than words.
Hey Wally,
Put down the TEAM kool-aid and think for yourself for just a second.
First of all this site has never been and will never be about "Quixtar Greatness", matter of fact this site has been saying the same thing for years, that TEAM is now saying about Quixtar.
Second, your comment about anyone can have an opinion applies to you as well. I find it quite amusing since it seems everyone who uses that line thinks all that they type falls into the "Facts" arena.
Finally you are correct actions speak more loudly then words and that is my point exactly. The actions by TEAM leadership to continue to promote and recruit "victims" (their words, not mine) into a business that they believed to be operating in an illegal fashion is at a minimum unethical if not worse.
Great post. I agree its ironic that the Team camp has finally seen the light. Although their position is contrary to what they've been saying for years i.e. their vigorous defense of Quixtar, my hat goes off to them for approaching Quixtar with the issues and trying to get them to fix their prices. Since Quixtar wouldn't budge, they said screw it! I don't understand why all the other kingpins are still supporting Quixtar after the whole thing has been exposed the way it has. They've known all along that it was impossible to retail the products. Truth, quick question: when would have been the appropriate time for Orrin Woodward to blow the lid on Quixtar? Should he have stopped promoting Quixtar two years ago after he sent the letter to Doug Devos and got no response? He was obviously in a pickle.
Bill,
Understand that apparently this is more then Orrin Woodward, there were quite a few names on that complaint.
But if anyone was in a pickle that is no excuse for compromising your ethics and integrity. All I know is that if I believe the business that I am involved in is operating in an illegal fashion, my character comes into question if I continue to promote that business as the greatest business and continue to recruit people that clearly as stated in the complaint were seen as "victims".
If one believes people are being victimized by Quixtar, would I not be just as guilty for encouraging the recruiting of people into this business that will only victimize them?
Of course all of this is based off of the complaint, assuming all of it is true and accurate. If it is not there are bigger problems.
Truth, in 2004 after much reading and thinking - We realized Scott Larsen's main point on high prices was right. We had bought into the cost per use and had never researched personally. I started to track what we were spending and had to admit I was wrong. Orrin wrote a letter to Doug Devos and actively pursued change. He promised to give it 3 years on the board to generate the necessary changes. I don't believe you quit something when you determine part of it is not right. But I do believe you committ to change it. Only after 3 years of continuous discussion did we realize they were not going to change. To continue to promote would be againstour own conscience and beliefs. We stopped teaching buy for yourself and taught buy only the best value products, but this was not enough. You must have a business that makes progress or else we are promoting failure. The critics were right on pricing in my opinion and we offer all an apology for not researching sooner. Perhaps I should have resigned earlier, but I truly believed they were changing. They continued to promise 15-20 value based products. I am guilty of over optimism in the ability and willingness of Quixtar to change. The above are my thoughts and opinions and not intended to disparage anyone. I hope this helps. thanks, Tim Marks
Often right intentions can still lead to wrong actions. I'm wondering if this was the case here with Orrin and Chris where they saw the problem and thought if they got enough clout they could change the course of the ship. I recall when I was with TEAM how I kept hearing "Just you wait and be patient" regarding product pricing economics concerns. Everything was supposed to change once Orrin got a voice on the IBOA.
I can understand trying to change something from within, that’s admirable...until you compromise your integrity and have to rationalize your position. I couldn't knowingly show a plan understanding the economics of the Quixtar product line. There's no hope or value in that. So I stopped.
I never saw the sense in saying "they're working on it" when concerns about product pricing were in question. There's no value to the consumer in that statement. The truth is it never should have been an issue if the "Plan" I was shown was totally truthful. (Products purchased online...knocking out middlemen...passing those savings onto the consumer (prosumer??) in the form of rebates/income in accordance to their ability to organize communities of prosumers.)
Even though I have great respect for Orrin, that just isn't what it was. There's no value in saying one thing and doing another. I just couldn't see the sense in trying to convince others it was what it wasn't, nor did I see the sense in paying for training that tried to convince me of the same thing.
Tim,
I can understand trying to change what is wrong with a program and would agree that it does not make sense to quit because something is out of place.
However, the position of those who would eventually file that complaint against Quixtar should have changed as well. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but I feel the question needs to be asked about how one could promote a business as the best when behind the scenes it was believed to be victimizing IBOs and operating illegally. Granted it is not an easy position to be put in, but usually the right thing never is.
You'll pardon my cynicism... I find it disingenuous in the extreme that these thieves and liars, who have been robbing thousands of downline for years, should now stand up and take Quixtar to task for running a "pyramid" scam. It is the tool business which is the real pyramid scam, and has been ruining the bank accounts of downline since day-1. Now that Quix is starting to clamp down on the abusive tool practices, the kingpins are seeing their empires crumbling around them and they're biting back the only way they know how: dirty. Joe you said it right in your first comment buddy, the irony is side-splitting.
7Grand,
You make an excellent point, the tools business is just as much an illegal pyramid scam if not more so then Quixtar is without retail sales.
You people are very sad. Doesn't McDonalds for instance send new potential franchise owners on a training program at McDonalds University? I guess they don't, they just throw those poor souls behind the desk and tell them to "just run it!".
It shows how much you understand the power of the education behind the tools system. Quit bitching and focus on your personal life, not the lives of the IBOs!
I guess I'm in the middle here. Yes, training is critical and yes, product pricing and value is critical.
Team and the rest of the Kingpins should be held accountable for the fleecing of the IBO's for tool profits while their Quixtar/Amway business produced massive losses for the rank and file. At the same time Quixtar/Amway knew about the problems and has only now, under threat of government lawsuits, decided to take action. And yet, they still are trying to hold to product prices that don't provide much perceived value.
I'm happy to see Team and any others break away and try something new. I don't think MLM's are good business models, but go for it. There's too many people that want their cut of the profits before it reaches the end consumer.
I'm willing to give everyone a "do over". I won't be getting involved with either party, but I am curious to see what both have to offer. If either bring more of the same, everyone here on the internet here will relentlessly slam them for good cause. If they bring something fresh, new, and successful, their ideas will go viral and people will want to be a part of it.
I'd say maybe even me, but I still can't get over the nausea.
Yes but no one expects 97% of all McDonald's to go to the wall and end up $1000's in debt.
Of course there is value in education -- in front of me right now I have a great big book on Java, which cost $90. But when we spend $1000's each year on business building tools we expect some kind of useful information and instruction on making a living from the endeavour at hand. How much value can be in an education system where 97% of all IBO's who get on it never turn a dime?
Ok put it this way -- why do you never see "System" tools on the shelves in Dymmocks or Borders? Because they're rubbish, and the only way they can be sold is to a captive audience. ie, IBOs. And, laughingly, it's no surprise that half the message contained in these tools is: "Buy more tools!"
Of course Truth(not the author), when you realise most of the Kingpins' income comes from flogging these useless tools to their captive audience, not from selling Quixtar products, it all starts to make a twisted sense. Therein lies the illegal pyramid.
"Doesn't McDonalds for instance send new potential franchise owners on a training program at McDonalds University?"
Yes, Truth (not the author) they do. In fact most businesses and franchise opportunities have a certain amount of training involved. The difference, between these legit training courses, and the crap dished out by the kingpins in this business is the legitimate material is not full of meetings telling you to attend more meetings, and tapes telling you to purchase more tapes, and literature telling you to purchase more literature.
You probably even fell for the "Most people go Platinum 90 days after a function."
Tim...
Your response is a humble one and the first I've ever heard from TEAM leadership that actually apologizes for your decisions and the direction you went. Thank you for that. If leaders aren't perfect, then they better be apologizing when they mess up!! That helps preserve their integrity.
Thousands, including my wife and I, were led in the wrong direction for years. Many gave up on their dreams because of their lack of success in TEAM. Thankfully, we were able to move on and be successful in a business that makes sense without risking further financial ruin.
As TRUTH says you can't say one thing and be thinking another. That requires deciet. Product pricing was a common complaint from within TEAM. The records at freetheibo.com explain the long history with product pricing concerns that date well back into the 90's. It was regularily addressed in tapes and at functions. Monthly reorder rate was, atleast in our group, very, very low. Leadership knew that. And they knew it well before 2004. In our own personal case, endless emails to Quixtar and even discussions upline (all the way to Chris Brady) produced no answers. We couldn't afford to continue. Besides, it made no sense and truth was being compromised. Neither of which we wanted anything to do with!
It is amazing to me that people of your talent (Orrin, Chris and yourself)can go 8+ years in the direction you went with the product pricing blatantly uncompetitive. My only explaination for us doing what we did for as long as we did in TEAM was the dream. We thought it was our only way.
It's not.
Hopefully your group will find a business you can operate where it is an advantage for the customer to simply be a customer. Make it valuable for them to become a customer...and stay a customer then you'll have a viable, stable business.
Blessings Brother
Will people please quit bringing up the McDonald's comparison? Nothing about it is valid.
McDonald's vets potential franchisees. You have to have a serious net worth before they'll even talk to you. Compare that with MLM opps - a low two or three figure payment gets you 'in'.
McDonald's does market research to determine franchise areas. This helps avoid market saturation. No MLMs do anything to prevent market saturation, either in specific geographic or or demographic markets.
McDonald's training does not train you to eat at your store all the time. Most franchisee owners I've known (and I've known a few, having worked in many fast food places over the years in high school and college) did not eat at their stores all the time. Now and then, but not as a daily rule. They used the profit from that business to buy things from other businesses (food, clothing, etc.)
Those are the big ones that come to mind, but there are probably dozens of other ways the whole McDonald's comparison doesn't work, so please quit using it.
Gracias
Another McDonald's comparison:
If I own a McDonald's franchise, the job of the business is to sell burgers, not to get everyone who comes in to also buy a McDonald's franchise. I hire people to work for me whose job is to serve customers, not to recruit more people to become McDonald's owners.
Forgot about that one last night. :)
"You probably even fell for the "Most people go Platinum 90 days after a function."
I dont know where you heard that but you need to check your sources. The goal for platinum is 12-18 months, I personally know a guy that did it in 5 months and another guy that did it in 3 years...all depends on personal motivation and ability. Not ANYBODY can succeed in the restaurant or real estate business, same applies. If you think this is an illegal business you seriously need to get over yourself.....the US government and lawyers from EVERY...SINGLE...PARTNER...STORE......have examined every aspect of this business and have come to the conclusion it is 100% legit. As for the prices being high.....maybe retail price is......QUIT COMPLAINING.....become an IBO and get wholesale prices, build the business, go platinum and get 25% back of everything you spend! it isnt rocket science! do something with your life other than poking fun at ambitious people in the best business in the world.
Marc sounds just like every other IBO that I have known. Uses every cliche response in the book. "The U.S. government and the lawyers from EVERY...SINGLE...PARTNER...STORE....." Blah,Blah,Blah. Everybody knows that crap. Just because it says it on paper doesn't mean people do it. Everybody that I was in businesss with had 2-5 customers, tops. And, most of them had been family that was given an amazing price because the IBO ate some of the WHOLESALE price. Even the Wholesale prices are high. Here's an idea: Have an original response instead of the
Marc said "become an IBO and get wholesale prices, build the business, go platinum and get 25% back of everything you spend! it isnt rocket science! do something with your life other than poking fun at ambitious people in the best business in the world."
Marc, been there, done that, got the Ruby pin to prove it. I also have the credit card debt getting there; the garage full of useless tapes because my upline did the same thing TEAM has done, just several years earlier.
I'm not poking fun at you, just asking you to spit out the Kool-Aid.
If you haven't heard the 90 days after a function to go platinum, I know you've heard, "A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with a theory." Sounds like you may still be operating with a theory.
Just one question for you though, "If the wholesale prices are so darn good, why is it when IBOs get laid off at work, the first thing they do is quit buying products, and go back to Wal Mart?
Marc...
Value is not price.
Respectively, if you're comfortable with product pricing for your budget and the value you're getting, fantastic! But, product pricing is one of the most common complaints against the Quixtar model. Most don't see the value of the Quixtar model being worth the price.
Here's a couple of sources...First, I'd refer to Tim Marks' response above. Do your own cost comparison and see for yourself. Second, I'd refer to our own personal consumption when we were in TEAM. With itemization of 30-35 products we purchased monthly on a cost per use basis, product pricing was, on average, 150% higher than local stores. (We figured even our 25% rebate didn't make much of a dent there.)
Even at "wholesale", they're not economical. Even with a more efficient distribution chain, common products are not competitive when, in reality, they should be well below competition due to lower overhead (theoretically). Being an IBO required "new money" on a monthly basis just to continue shopping. This is a steep hill to climb when you're talking to people on a tight budgets trying to afford propane. If you're going to ask people to pay more, the product had better deliver more value. We never saw that.
Cowboy Fan and to the others "not so quick" in the head,
The purpose of the meetings, tapes and literature is to educate people. It is not the same people all the time, there are new people who keep on coming on board. So, doesn't it make sense that they should have the same fair right to education as the previous people did? And no, the educational system does not encourage you to buy more books, tapes and business meetings just for the sake of doing that; they are optional and besides, only attending them will not make you successful; you have to apply what you learn from the educational system and that is its purpose. You have completely missed the real picture or you know it and you twist it on purpose.
gumby, maybe you misspelled as in dumby?
What you state is simply irrelevant to the actual business plan. No, Quixtar is not McDonalds but they do share in the legitimacy and the foundation of residual income. So... shut up.
Sure, over pay 33% for products and then get back 25%. Do the math.
With regards to partner stores and what not. Who cares? Quixtar partnering with Barnes and Noble or Bass Pro does nothing to increase an IBO's profitability nor does it increase your chance of success.
Gumby- good post on franchising. Quixtar is not a franchise, why do IBOs continue to spout this lie?
I almost signed up to be an IBO because, I was broke and desperate for money. My wife hated the idea from the beginning, because the prices were way too high. Even after her Quixtar Protest, I still wanted to try it. The reason I didn't do it was because, the guys who were in charge were a couple brainwashed idiots.
I asked if I need business license. They told me I could just use theirs (red flag).
I asked if Quixtar would ever put a cap on the amount of IBO's they would have. Of course he said no. (red flag)
The nail in my coffin was driven by the "this is the only way attitude". I felt like Quixtar people were too negative about anything that wasn't Quixtar.
I know successful business people who aren't IBO's. Or maybe they are IBO's in the true sense of the word. I have a very small business of my own, where I had to get a business license, sellers permit, etc... I know that a person cannot work under someone else's biz. license unless they are a co-owner, employee or independent contractor.
I know what a real business is. I hated hearing this crap about Independent Business Owner. I wanted to vomit all over the guys living room. Quixtar uses the IBO thing to attract people to their products. By convincing you that your making money, they are able to push their 99 Cent Store quality toilet paper.
I cant believe how many people fall for this.
Team built an Amway Quixtar biz when no one "i mean no one" was growin but them. Im not a part of them but i think the rest of the biz was jealous. i saw my upline talk crap but when i went to q12 my upline had no one and team had almost everyone. Lets clap for them for taking a horrible biz and making the best of it. Ive since quite after 8 yrs. amquix is just tooo tooo hard anymore
Robert...
You're right, I'm amazed what they accomplished in light of the obstacles in front of them!
However, while this may be a remarkable, herculian effort, it is only commendable if the effort was in the right direction. When you're shepherding a flock, not only is the shepherd responsible to lead them to the right pastures and still waters, but he is also responsible for guarding them from the wolves, the cliff, the thicket, the brackish water.
There's way too many businesses and leaders out there that don't take casualties into account when building the business. The battlefield is pretty bloody here from "making the best of it". Way too many innocent sheep lost while following the shepherds...
Just something to ponder. ;o)
"So where does that leave TEAM? Are they just a bunch of bitter, broke losers who were not cut out to be in business and were unwilling to do what the had to in order to be successful?"
Joe says: The irony and humor in that statement has my sides splitting! Great post!
Posted by: Joecool18 | November 20, 2007 5:44 PM