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June 2, 2007
Another Nail in the Coffin
By Truth in A/QMOs
The first time I heard Insider try to sell the line that Network 21 was different from all the other organizations out there I was indeed skeptical. The problem was that I had no knowledge of Network 21 and never knew any IBOs from there except Insider. Of course I only became more skeptical the more I realized Insider was nothing more then a propaganda artist who had no interest in the actual truth, but instead only wanted to spread his version of things and then attempt to discredit anyone who didn't agree with him with "hit pieces" full of half-truths and deception. But in the end he was, and is, nothing more then another person who liked to talk the talk, but would not, and I suspect could not back it up.
Lately however there have been some very interesting events taking place in the world of Network 21 that have been speaking to the contrary of the BS Insider has been slinging over the years. Of course the biggest news was N21 being included with BWW and Amway in a complaint by the DTI that has listed many of the things that Insider claimed N21 didn't take part in. Of course Insider has already pathetically tried to spin this and has even gone as far as claiming there was a rogue Double Diamond in the UK teaching things that were contrary to N21 practices.
Now I found a blog by a N21 IBO thanks to rara. She posted about this blog over at the Quixtar Blog Forums. There was some wonder as to whether this was a parody blog because this guy just seemed so far over the top. I agree that this guy is quite a bit over the top, but sadly I believe it is because he is sucked into the tools so deep there is little hope for him. But regardless of all that his blog most of all is just another nail in the coffin of proving Insider is full of it when he tried to sell everyone that N21 was different from the other organizations. Let me just post a few gems for you from this guy's blog:
Had an interesting session with a candidate tonight (let's call him EG), and man, what a mistake I made... should NOT have whipped out the Amway product catalogue (as instructed by my N21 coach), but instead, should have concentrated on the Pipeline and the List...
Finally, I forcefully brought it across to my friend that I am NOT there for his Amway registration, NOT there to get him to sign/preach Amway, NOT there to get him to buy Amway products from me etc. but TO GET INVOLVED WITH NETWORK21!!!
I was there to show him how N21 is the vehicle (according to Robert Kiyosaki) to move us from the left to right quadrant. It is all about NETWORK21. It is all about the Books, CDs, Functions etc. It is all about educating and inspiring people to build an asset for themselves. It is all about converting your everyday expenses to everyday income. That he can even join into Network21 WITHOUT getting into Amway.
Say there is an idea, join the motivational organization and buy all the tools, but don't get into Amway and make any money. Those N21 IBOs really know how to sell the plan.
At long last, all the impressions that I am pitching him Amway went away temporarily and he understood that if I was selling anything, I was selling him NETWORK21. And I told him that I was not earning a single cent from his involvement.
Ahhh, but Jimmy Dornan is going to make a nice living off of his involvement.
The good news? He said that he would like to attend the N21 Weekend Leadership Seminar in August, and I regained my sense of joy.
Notice how it takes getting someone to the next seminar to bring joy to this IBO. Funny, I would think making a profit would be what would bring joy to a supposed "business man". My favorite gem from this website however is this one where Awesome IBO, as he calls himself, is listing the reasons he is against Amway/Quixtar taking over the tools.
We would, in all likelihood, be bombarded with product selling techniques
Heaven forbid that ever happening. Imagine the chaos of IBOs actually learning how to sell the products that are a part of their business.
Like I said just another nail in the coffin showing that Insider has indeed been full of it all this time, and in the end it is apparent that N21 teaches the same exact nonsense that many of the other organizations do. I am sure Insider will do his best to come and try and spin this as well, but as in the past he will get put in a corner trying to defend the ridiculous and will just disappear for a while.
Comments
The difference bwteen N21 and other AQMOs is that the other AQMOs don't have an "insider" posting spin and lies to protect their reputation.
As I've posted on the forums:
Come on. Why won't you believe that N21 is different? Forget that you've heard people say that N21 IBOs preach the same BS as BWW. Forget that the British lumped N21 and BWW into the same boat for the same infractions. Forget that Australian ex-IBOs reported the same kind of BS teachings and abuses as the ones that go on in BWW.
Forget all of that because you must realize that all of these people are simply ignorant and don't know the whole story. Insider himself has NEVER seen any abuses, any non-kosher teachings, or any fallibilities at all with N21. He is obviously more knowledgeable and experienced than all these people put together. And you must believe him.
JoeCool - you're obviously lacking an irony gene. The "n21 accredited" claim was made in a conversation with Ty and was not a serious claim, it was made to point out the fact he was making claims without hard facts and no evidence to back them, and that anyone could do that. Ty understood that at the time, apparently you didn't. N21 is not Quixtar Accreditated (something I've made clear before, including after that post in the same thread - you didn't need to ask Beth Dornan).
I've been informed N21 has been focused on opening the russian market and with a relatively small US presence it was not a priority. I'm told N21 North America is now investigating accreditation with a view to achieving it, and I encourage them to do so, though apparently they have some skepticism as they've apparently put a lot of time, effort, and money into other similiar Amway "schemes" that ended up going nowhere. I still encourage them to do it.
As for Rykel the N21 "AwesomeIBO", you apparently have not followed his story, he has been a non-system IBO for some time and only recently joined N21. He's certainly saying some things on his blog that I wouldn't agree with, and I doubt N21 or Jim Dornan would either. Probably the biggest weakness of the network marketing model is that folk are often exposed to the newest "untrained" IBO and they don't always do or say the right thing. Welcome to our business.
But of course, you'll just claim this reality as "spin". We'll go on nevertheless.
As an example of Insider/Ibofightback's position, I saw his comments at the Amway Media Blog.
Jaagojaago says: Moreover it is hammered down the IBOs every now and then blatantly through tapes, CDs and functions that no one, who is not on BSMs, has been successful in the Amway business, do you dispute that?
Insider says: I actually can’t recall having ever heard that, no. I’ve certainly heard critics *say* that we’re told that a lot, and I’ve probably heard it somewhere along the line, but “hammered down the IBOs” - I most certainly dispute that, at least in my experience.
Notice the use of the words "can't recall", "in my experience", ...
Jim Dornan, in his book "The power of partnership" says: In the "System for Success" owners manual, vital signs are outlined for all stages of network growth, and keep the realism of experience ever present in a business that is energized by goals and dreams.
One of the major indicators is the flow of business support materials (BSMs). These are "power tools," education tapes and books without which exponential growth has never been achieved.
That is said in a book sold to the general public, so gives a fair idea of what goes on in IBO meetings.
"Probably the biggest weakness of the network marketing model is that folk are often exposed to the newest "untrained" IBO and they don't always do or say the right thing. Welcome to our business."
Couldn't have said it better myself. Problem is that these "untrained" IBOs are only untrained in what to not say publicly. Are you telling us that AwesomeIBO learned all of these things he wrote on his own? I highly doubt it.
He learned from somewhere (as he states in his blog) to not whip out the Amway product catalog. He learned from somewhere that it is all indeed about Network 21 and not Amway. But I suppose he is under another rogue isn't he?
So yes once again "your reality" is simply spin to the rest of us here in the real world. We all know you will go on Insider, as long as there are IBOs like Rykel out there, the tool profits will continue and it will always be all about Network 21, the books, tapes, functions, etc.
Oh -
Insider is the first to crow about the importance of 'tracking tool flow' - because it's an 'excellent indicator' of growth. Plus, system IBOs - who have PV goals - seem to generate more volume (buy from yourself, and if you don’t make your goal, try to sell something) than non-system IBOs – who don’t have PV goals imposed on them.
What he can’t answer is: is it the CDs, meetings, functions, books that IBOs spend their money on that is the cause of this increased PV….
….or, is it the simple “You should do X amount of PV this month if you are taking your business seriously”? How much money does it cost the IBO to hear that? (How much money it costs him/her to reach their PV goal is a different question).
Plus – and here’s another problem – ‘system’ IBOs are the ones who seem to be advancing in the business. Insider goes to a big event, the leaders call the newest qualified folks on the stage, and has all those newbies raise their hands if they were on the system and it got them to where they are. Amazingly, all those new qualifiers are on the system! How much more proof do you need?
The problem? Where are all the non-system IBOs? Um – they’re not at the function, are they?
Those who are actively involved in building their business will be in touch with their LOS or LOA. So even if the BSMs are not absolutely necessary, Dornan's above views indicate that they will be indirectly pressured to subscribe to them or else be considered disloyal.
Plus, how many are unsuccessful but still subscribed to BSMs.
Insider has talked of double blind expermients in several of his posts. Something similar will be needed to establish a relation between BSMs and success.
Insider,
I know some people have said that some rednecks from Oklahoma have parked trucks full of explosives next to a building full of women and kids. I can honestly say that I've never personally experienced that with the rednecks I know from Texas; so I'm sure that it doesn't happen. It's just unsupported lies to discredit rednecks.
Insider said "I've been informed N21 has been focused on opening the russian market and with a relatively small US presence it was not a priority. I'm told N21 North America is now investigating accreditation with a view to achieving it, and I encourage them to do so, though apparently they have some skepticism as they've apparently put a lot of time, effort, and money into other similiar Amway "schemes" that ended up going nowhere. I still encourage them to do it."
Insider, you must be a well respected higher up to be able to advise N21.
What other "Amway schemes" are you talking about?
insider/ibofightback's excuse for lying
is I don't understand the point. Ty flat out asked him if N21 was accredited and insider's response was "I just did some checking, it is".
insider's other big lie was claiming "expert" status in quixtar hoping to gain special permission to post a video clip or something.
I've been informed N21 has been focused on opening the russian market
Geez aren't Russian/US relations strained enough as it is right now. What's it going to be like when the Russians figure our some fat cat kingpin from the US is eating Russian Caviar paid for with his tool money?
So, can I gather from this post, and joecool's post on his blog, that all is well in the A/Q worlds and all you have to whine about now is me?
Kind of flattering really .....
Apparently me saying "i've never experienced" something *actually* means I'm claiming "it never happens"
Maybe you folk think I'm omniscient, but I don't.
"So, can I gather from this post, and joecool's post on his blog, that all is well in the A/Q worlds and all you have to whine about now is me?"
Actually that shows how bad your perception of things really are. The way I see it, gathering from what has gone on in the UK and Ireland things are certainly not well in A/Q worlds. Although hopefully the steps the corp is taking will make it better.
Unfortunately for you some of your past comments and statements has just gotten churned up in the wake. I always find it interesting when someones previous statements get challenged by real world events, and what their reaction is.
Your reactions so far are as I expected. You have attempted to spin the story, then you attempted to limit who is truly N21, and of course you went to making excuses. Even though I thought it was pretty pathetic that the best excuse you could come up with was the rogue Double Diamond story.
"Apparently me saying "i've never experienced" something *actually* means I'm claiming "it never happens""
Actually the only reason people see it that way is because that is how you imply it. Any story told to you, you claim N21 is not like that and you say you know because you have never experienced it. Now that your beloved N21 has been exposed, and therefore so have you, now you are trying to play down your statements. That might work over at your site with your buddies, but the readers here know your history.
"Apparently me saying "i've never experienced" something *actually* means I'm claiming "it never happens"
Maybe you folk think I'm omniscient, but I don't."
I didn't quite understand what you said here.
Anyway, what do you say about Jim Dornan's statements above? It seems to be in clear conflict with Amway's rules posted on your site:
AIEs (IBOs) may not "advocate that success is only possible by using the system.
OK, maybe these rules are meant only for Russia?
I mentioned I'm not omniscient, but I apparently you are. You claim that "the DTI that has listed many of the things that Insider claimed N21 didn't take part in". This is pretty amazing, since such a list has never been publicised, and the court apparently even has had to ask the DTI to compile one! Care to share this list with us, oh omniscient one? This list that the court didn't even give the DTI?
We mere mortals no almost nothing about the specifics of the complaint. Apparently you do.
Tell you what Drew, I'm not a gambling man, but I bet you $50 the complaint is NOT about the things I talk about when I say my N21 experiences are different.
I bet it's not about N21 promoting religion.
I bet it's not about N21 promoting politics.
I bet it's not about N21 running it's business with under the table cash payments to whoever it likes.
I bet it's not about N21 "excluding" folk who aren't "on the system".
I bet it's not about N21 calling people "losers" if they're not interested.
I bet it's not about N21 leaders showing off "excessive lifestyles" that don't fit their Amway levels.
I'll also bet it's not about N21 leaders earning more from tools than Amway.
There's one rider on all of this. On the small chance the complaint IS about any of those things, then I'll double the bet to $100 and bet you that N21 is found not guilty. Just because the DTI accuses somebody of something doesn't mean they're right.
Oh, and the loser of the bet has to stop blogging about Amway or Quixtar.
Deal?
So what exactly has this rogue double diamond been doing? Or are we talking about whether it's the rogue double diamond or "N21" who is involved in these practices?
"I bet it's not about N21 "excluding" folk who aren't "on the system"."
Amway already said that DTI complained about over-promotion of BSMs.OK, perhaps the wording "excluding IBOs" was not used.
So is the bet for money or to quit blogging? You change that as much as you change your excuses. Have I gotten to you that much Insider that now you need to place bets to get me to stop. Apparently you don't like it when tables are turned. Yet another showing of your true colors.
I do find it funny however that you say you are not a gambling man but then you make a bet, LOL! I guess you are not a man who sticks to his principles either.
I think Amway put up on their blog some of the charges that DTI is taking up with N21, BWW, and Amway. Maybe it isn't the down and dirty specifics but it certainly is something. We have been down this road before and you never answered the question if you actually expect us to believe that all the charges are against only BWW and Amway?
Thanks for the complement though, but only God almighty is omniscient. Just ask Jimmy, he will tell you all about it.
That's a funny comment though, you make all these claims and put money up for it, then add a caveat if you lose, LOL! Guess you are not as confident in N21 as you thought.
But just to be clear you are saying that N21 will not be listed by the DTI as having done any of the following:
-Promoting financial rewards of the business that are excessive or does not reflect what people are likely to earn
-That the BSM is not promoted in much more frequency then the Amway business
Those are the things that Amway has posted on it's blog and those are things that you have claimed in the past that N21 does not do. So I want to know if you are going to stand by your words and claim N21 will not be accused of this.
I admire your little spunk Insider it makes me laugh. However, my bet is that you don't have the spine to discuss this on my podcast. It seems you don't like a live conversation where you don't have time to spin your answer. You love whining on your site and here about how wrong I am but have always dodged the opportunity to put me in my place. You up to it, or are you going to tuck tail yet again?
"I admire your little spunk Insider it makes me laugh. However, my bet is that you don't have the spine to discuss this on my podcast. It seems you don't like a live conversation where you don't have time to spin your answer. You love whining on your site and here about how wrong I am but have always dodged the opportunity to put me in my place. You up to it, or are you going to tuck tail yet again?"
Yeah, why don't you, Mr.Insider?
Why don't you go on Drew's podcast, and put him in his place? Huh?
Let's see if you have the guts to do a REAL-TIME-LIVE-DEBATE.
And I will sweeten the pot for you. You get $50 if you go on Drew's podcast.
So, what say you?
I only bet when I know I can't lose. Then it's not gambling.
You are correct, Amway says the DTI is concerned about -
#1 Promoting financial rewards of the business that are excessive or does not reflect what people are likely to earn
#2 That the BSM is overpromoted
None of which I related to all the issues I generally talk about N21 being "different", but you conveniently ignore that reality. I think the DTI is basing #1 on a misunderstanding of the business model and the meaning of the statistics that are around, eg average income of an active IBO. I've had a conversation with someone who has been closely involved with the case, and while they can't tell me exactly what's going on, my interpretation agrees with what they are saying.
#2 I just find bizarre. Accusing a company of promoting it's products too much?
For #1, I absolutely stand behind n21. I've *never* seen a N21 "higher pin" promote a lifestyle that is excessive relative to their Amway income. And I've been to a number of weekend seminars for UK N21 ibos. AFAIK N21 UK only has a one diamond and one double diamond. I've no idea what lifestyle the diamond has, but he's also one of the UKs top psychologists and continues to work in that profession, so everyone knows he has more than his Amway income. They other guys are double diamonds in the UK and I think emeralds or higher in other markets, so quite obviously have large Amway incomes that I think could easily cover whatever lifestlyes they portray.
Amway diamonds and above mostly promote the free Amway trips when talking about lifestyle. Since the DTI case was proceeded by a campaign launced by Scott Larsen and Robert FitzPatrick, I'm fairly certain their understanding has been clouded by bogus analyses by that pair. If so, I'm not too concerned about it once it reaches court as it's fairly easily dismissed.
Other than that, no idea what the actual charges are. But we do know it's nothing to do with all the areas above where I talk about my experience with N21. I also don't know if there's some "rogue IBO" or not, that was all pure speculation. We don't know what the specific charges are, pretty much everything is pure speculation.
Where on earth do you get the idea I claim the charges are only against BWW and Amway? You're just making stuff up now.
I love the irony of how a post called "Another Nail in the Coffin" has been up for three weeks plus, as new Quixtar Blog posts have, in recent months, become fewer and farther in between. As much as I enjoy reading this site, let's face it...you guys are totally out of stuff to say.
Everytime someone says Quixtar is a pyramid, the prescribed response by Quixtar is that it is also in our job too. By seeking a similarity with job profession, though that may be somewhat true, it doesn't take away the fact that quixtar is a pyramid. Perhaps not illegal, but nevertheless, the Quixtar business structure certainly looks like a pyramid. Throw in the tools business amd for sure the guys at the top make almost all of the money.
Now of course, at your workplace, there is likely a hierarchy that is comparable to a pyramid. The difference is that in a job, at the end of the month, everyone gets paid and has a net gain (paycheck). The guy at the top, such as the CEO does not derive his/her salary from the paychecks of his/her workers. In Quixtar, the average system IBO takes a loss after subtracting their "system" expenses from their "bonus checks".
What's the point? The point is that a job, any job that even pays minimum wage will most likely make you better off than quixtar, especially if you are involved in a Quixtar Motivational Organization (QMO) that promoted tapes/cds, books and functions.
What a bravura show to see. Emily, the Quixtar tamed, and brainwashed by Bell-Britt was chasing after her tail and others make her realize that it belong to you so no need to chase. In Quixtar you lose your own tail.
Thanks for the love Fleak, but for the past three weeks plus there have been some technical problems and I could not get logged in. Eric has since fixed the problems.
IBOfightback: For #1, I absolutely stand behind n21. I've *never* seen a N21 "higher pin" promote a lifestyle that is excessive relative to their Amway income.
Joecool says: Really? Well why not show us how much these kingpins make on Amway/Quixtar versus the tools se we can understand your position on this.
insider's been pretty quiet lately. I hope N21 gets taken to the cleaners in the UK. I wonder how he will spin the issue then?
The silence here is deafening.
Are you kidding, this is still around? Wow talk about sticking it to people. I tried this program years ago and had such a hard tim trying to make it wor, what with all the seminars,costly dinners,tapes and CD's to buy I was going broke to make the ones at the top rich if I had any advice to new comers i'd say dont become the newest "Brick"!
Are you kidding, this is still around? Wow talk about sticking it to people. I tried this program years ago and had such a hard time trying to make it work, what with all the seminars,costly dinners,tapes and CD's to buy I was going broke to make the ones at the top rich if I had any advice to new comers i'd say dont become the newest "Brick"!
Not to mention insider/ibofightback LIED. He clearly made a claim on the efinity thread stating that he inquired and found that N21 was accredited. That was late in 2006.
Here's what I just found:
Beth Dornan said:
Wednesday, May 30, 2007 | #
Response to JoeCool...no, Network21 is not accredited (you can see the organizations that currently meet accreditation criteria at www.quixtaraccreditation.com.)
Posted by: Joecool18 | June 2, 2007 12:43 AM