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May 24, 2007
Update on the UK
By Truth in Amway
Today on the Amway Media Blog there is an update about what is going on in the UK involving complaints from the DTI. I will not repost the entire article here but will post some excerpts and have some comments about this update. You can go to the blog to read the entire article for yourself.
The first thing I noticed was that the DTI's complaint was against Amway, Network 21, and Britt WorldWide, and that the complaint was based off of a year long investigation. I guess that puts to bed Insider/IBOFightBack's argument that Network 21 is different from all the other tool organizations, and that this action by the DTI is a result of complaints from people who don't know the business. But that of course doesn't surprise me since I have been telling everyone that Insider is nothing more then a propaganda artist from the start. Time has just now taken it's toll, since you can't hide your true colors forever.
So now let me post some excerpts of this article and after each excerpt I will post my comments:
The heart of the DTI’s position, as we understand it, is that the business opportunity is promoted by incorporated and unincorporated organizations in a manner that does not reflect the financial rewards people are likely to earn when they participate in the Amway business.
Well if that is the heart of their position I would say the DTI is right on the money. How many times have you seen a video, or heard a Diamond talking about buying mansions, cars, vacations, etc. and paying cash for everything? Well if the average Diamond is making somewhere in the ballpark of $150K gross, then I would say that is a HUGE misrepresentation of the financial rewards people are likely to earn in Amway or Quixtar. Anyone remember Greg Fredericks? $250,000 in 12 months? I hope you are not naive enough to believe he was the only one saying such nonsense?
The DTI also objects to the manner and frequency in which meetings and BSMs are promoted by the sales organizations in conjunction with the Amway business opportunity.
...and once again the DTI is right on the money with this objection. How many times have you heard from former and current IBOs about how often tools are referred to and how little actual product sales are referred to? There is a real problem when the support materials are talked about and promoted more often then the actual business you signed up for in the first place, and that is exactly what goes on in many of the meetings and seminars.
Amway’s fault, according to the petition, lies in our failure to take sufficient action to prevent these abuses from occurring.
Looks like the DTI's year long investigation pretty much revealed exactly what has been being said for years. I agree that Amway and Quixtar for that matter are both at fault for failure to take action on these abuses. My hope is that finally some action is being taken and I hope in the end it amounts to more then just a bunch of saber rattling. I think those IBOs who join this organization because they are trying to better their lives and the lives of their families deserve better then just a bunch of tough talk.
There have been enough of these disappointments. They are serious distractions to the operations of the company, embarrassments to the many IBOs and Amway markets that provide exemplary service to the public, and a threat to the company’s long-term health.
Is there an echo in this blog? I don't mean to sound so cynical about this, but why does it take government action to get Amway to finally realize what has been being said by IBOs for years? Perhaps if Amway and Quixtar would actually listen to what is being said instead of parading the pompous ass Rob Davidson on camera talking about how the critics are just a bunch of people looking to get something for nothing, they could have stopped government organizations from bringing lawsuits in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, I am pleased that it seems action is finally beginning to take place in that organization, but I can't help but shake my head when the corporation acts like these complaints is news to them. It's been being said for years, and sadly it took a government agency bringing a lawsuit to spark action instead of IBO tales of abuse.
Comments
As I understand, the company initiated reform in the early 80's, but then abandoned it because of the subsequent financial losses.
Will the same happen again?
IBOfightback says "fish are different to whales"
DTI says "fish and whales both swim in the sea!"
Drew says "see, IBOfightback was wrong, they are the same!"
Is your sense of logic seriously that poor Drew?
In any case, the issues raised in the DTI case have little to do with all the areas I point out N21 is different.
Finally, you seem to have missed the part the court told the DTI they had to actually tell the various parties exactly what it is they'd done. Which means they must have been pretty vague to start. And you seem to have missed the fact Dornan said he believed N21 was innocent of these vague accusations. And finally, you seem to have missed the part where every other time these kind of issues have come up in a court, the court has found on the side of A/Q. But then, you've even forgotten that bastion of western civilization - innocent until proven guilty.
But that's right, facts don't matter do they Drew? A position I don't ascribe to, but you apparently do.
I will though directly answer one of your questions, as it relates to my experience with N21 -
"How many times have you seen a video, or heard a Diamond talking about buying mansions, cars, vacations, etc. and paying cash for everything?"
Never Drew. Never. Not once. Hundreds of CDs and seminars over years, in multiple countries, and I've never seen or heard it once.
But I'm sure that's just another fact that doesn't matter to you.
What does insider have to say about this?
ibofightback wrote: "How many times have you seen a video, or heard a Diamond talking about buying mansions, cars, vacations, etc. and paying cash for everything?"
Never Drew. Never. Not once. Hundreds of CDs and seminars over years, in multiple countries, and I've never seen or heard it once.
Joe says: Funny, I was in WWDB and I heard that at almost every open meeting, every function and night owl.
We were told how the rich don't pay interest because everything is paid for in cash. If not cash, you can't afford it. Upline didn't even want you to buy a house unless it was in cash. Probably because you would then have less money for tools.
My former upline who is a doctor still rents a run down home because his upline told him not to buy a home unless he can pay it off in cash. A friend I had in common with my former upline told me about a year ago that she contacted my former upline about purchasing a home (she's a realtor) and he told her that he would only purchase a home in cash, thus confirming that it is very likely this teaching still continues today.
Well since Insider wants to talk facts let's dance.
Fact: Insider posts a response by Jim Dornan and takes it down after Amway calls it "spin". Insider only reposts it after Jimmy has had a chance to do another letter making good with Amway.
Fact: Insider has put up various hit pieces on people he disagrees with that are so lacking in truth it's ridiculous, and on top of that doesn't wish to engage in comments about those pieces.
Fact: For years Insider has claimed that N21 is different from all the other organizations that get complaints, and blindly sticks to that. I guess logic doesn't tell Insider that Amway is not the ones making the misrepresentations of income since it is the IBOs showing the plans.
But I guess Insider is hoping he can lay all the blame on Britt WorldWide for that area. I do however love how Insider claims the religion is not stressed in N21, yet Jimmy asks all to "pray" at this time in his business communication.
Fact: The court has found on the side of Amway/Quixtar because of the fact that they are not the ones selling the tools or BSMs. The FTC however did find that claims of potential income were being inflated and misrepresented. Now that a gov't agency has taken some BSM organizations in with this, let's see what the results are. I find it interesting that Amway has put the clamps down, perhaps they know having the BSM organizations included in this spell trouble.
Well Insider that is great that you have never heard it at a seminar, but I provided a link that clearly shows it. But then again you claimed so many other things about N21 that seem to be crumbling now, who is to say this isn't just another thing that N21 really does do?
But if you want to talk about the difference in positions we ascribe to, here is one you are sure to love:
Insider: Read over my site and all the articles I have put up before you do your research and if you find anyone who has a different opinion you know to not believe them.
Drew: Don't believe anything you read on my site unless you have taken the time to research it and prove the accuracy to your own satisfaction. Take the articles I write as something to compel you to look deeper into the issue for yourself
HMMM, two very different positions. Apparently Insider is not as secure in his beliefs since he needs you to automatically not believe anyone who disagrees with his articles. I guess I have said from the start Insider is only interested in providing you his propaganda laced truth.
I prefer to just give it to you straight and let you make up your own mind as to who you want to believe.
At least, from the little I know, Amway doesn't seem to be spinning this the way Quixtar spins the tool systems over at the opportunity zone. (Try getting the people over there to explicitly admit there is a serious problem with AQMOs... unless I missed something.) Amway seems to be up front with the fact that there is a big problem.
Insider, just give it up. I don't think anyone believes any longer that N21 is so great and different, if they bought your spin in the first place. Deb has attended N21 meetings in the US and has experience with N21, and she says they're not much different from the others. DTI has basically destroyed any credibility you had, IMHO. Can you imagine, they lumped your pristine N21 together with BWW, which you like to describe as one of the most abusive groups.
Perhaps time will prove you right, though I doubt it. Until then, N21 is just like the rest.
knverma wrote: "As I understand, the company initiated reform in the early 80's, but then abandoned it because of the subsequent financial losses.
Will the same happen again?"
My understanding is that there were no true efforts at reform in the 1980s. There were documents and recordings made at that time that reveal an awareness on the part of corporate officials that abuses were being perpetrated by AMO leaders in the name of their business, but no substantive action was ever taken to stop it until: 1.) the tools scam was revealed on the Internet, 2.) Eric Scheibeler's book. Merchants Of Deception was published and 3.) the Dateline exposé was televised.
Even now, these actions are not remotely as substantial as they need to be to put an end to the scam. But it can be seen as a shot across the bow. It's a start.
PW
Drew, corporation didn't go after tape pimps before because it had two choices:
1- Bite the hand that feeds u: generate sales of products.
2- Defend it as much as you can in courts and media. (Lookup amway / quixtar cases in pacer. Why would corp defend Randy Haugen, Baboon guy, Amway employee assault by Dexter Yager and so many other king pins? Media spin, you pointed. Mr. Pompous Ass)
Don't think for a second they didn't know. Rich knew. They were defending kingpins in courts year you were born.
It must be that 2 is getting harder, and government is after them with much more force. So they have a choice to go down or play "disappointed" for a while until the dust settles.
However, now amway media blog, beth blog and many other blogs out there, corp words will be magnified. It's different paradigm then seventies even nineties, where couple of critics could be bullied. Conversations are becoming more and more open. Look how this "insider" guy is a "documented" idiot, thanks to all quixtar related blogs including his own.
Lot of credits goes to QBlog for
- Not being bullied. Quixtar tried though.
- Introducing Quixtar to the internet.
Drew, you provided no link to any seminar or vide I've ever seen. You provided one to a site that has nothing to do with any organization we're talking about here. There has been nothing I've said about N21 that has been "proven wrong"
But lets look at the DTI and what we know so far. There are 2 claims
(1) promoted in a manner that does not reflect the likely financial rewards
All Network 21 materials the "reflect likely financial rewards" are approved by Amway. So if DTI has a problem here with what N21 says, it's also Amway's problem
(2) overpromotion of BSM
This is frankly bizarre. Complaining a company markets it's products too much? How the heck do you decide what is too much? I'm really curious to see exactly what law it is they claim to have been broken.
Insider,
All those facts laid out clean and clear and this is all you can respond to. I would then assume that my other facts are right on the money since you have nothing to say.
I know that site has nothing to do with Network 21, but you logic sucks here. I have spoken to and heard the same stories from IBOs that were in BWW, WWDB, Yager, etc. and all of the stories pretty much stay the same. However, you want us to believe that N21 is that shining city on the hill that doesn't do anything that has been heard in the stories. That might work on your downline, but not on me.
"All Network 21 materials the "reflect likely financial rewards" are approved by Amway. So if DTI has a problem here with what N21 says, it's also Amway's problem"
N21 material doesn't stop N21 IBOs from making claims otherwise. Many times I have heard IBOs refer to material as the minimum, when it was actually the average. Amway isn't on the streets doing that it is the IBOs. I suppose you expect us to believe it is only the BWW IBOs?
"This is frankly bizarre. Complaining a company markets it's products too much? How the heck do you decide what is too much? I'm really curious to see exactly what law it is they claim to have been broken."
Man you make my job so easy, do you know that? Here is another clear example of Insider's propaganda at work. DTI did not complain the BSM was promoted too much outright. The complaint was that DTI "objects to the manner and frequency in which meetings and BSMs are promoted by the sales organizations in conjunction with the Amway business opportunity."
Which means that everyone has joined Amway, however it seems the things being promoted the most is BSMs and meetings, instead of the Amway products and opportunity. The DTI is probably wondering what Rich was wondering back in the 80's: "whether you're really in the Amway business or whether you're in the tape business."
So save your propaganda for your site Insider, you should know by now it doesn't work here.
But thanks for the response, each time it is my opportunity to further show the spin you put on things, just like your buddy Jimmy. Also I take you silence to my other facts as your confirmation that I am right on the money. Especially in the two different positions that our sites ascribe to. I think that alone is very telling of your propaganda ways.
Thanks for the comments Grump,
I would say you have a pretty fair assessment of how things have most likely gone concerning Quixtar and Amway. Like I said I don't mean to sound cynical since I have praised the more open attitude of Quixtar, but at the same time I wish they would drop the "this is news to us" routine.
Of course this comment is right on the money concerning the net: "Look how this "insider" guy is a "documented" idiot, thanks to all quixtar related blogs including his own."
You are also right on concerning Eric aka Qblog and his efforts. Quixtar did try to bully him off the net in certain ways, and each time it did not work and in some cases actually backfired. I think his blog more then most sites forced the corp hands in learning to use the net to become a part of the conversation rather then just making excuses. Something Eric had told them they should do from the start.
So all those IBOs out there who are loving this new open communication with the corporation have those pesky critics to thank, and this blog is one of the leading ones.
"Anyone remember Greg Fredericks? $250,000 in 12 months? I hope you are not naive enough to believe he was the only one saying such nonsense?"
Are you so naive to think (or so biased and angry to mislead) that Greg Fredericks was, as the only IBO interviewed, an accurate representation of all, or even most, IBOs encountered during the 'unbiased', 'fair' "undercover story" by Dateline? I believe Dateline has many many hours, if not full weeks, of tape coverage of many IBO interviews and interactions, and I also believe, based on my experiences, that most of the footage would show honest IBOs who do not misrepresent the opportunity as Mr Fredericks did. (Who will never again do that considering the action taken against him)
But in the manner of posts by Drew-and many found on various critic websites- snippits, edits and summaries are taken from full documents, ignoring surrounding circumstances and/or perceptual interpretation, and used to draw conclusions that in the full light of information are weak at best. Keep it up Drew.
insider: All Network 21 materials the "reflect likely financial rewards"
Joe: Hahahahahaha, like $115 a month average income?
Drew - you seem, still, not to understand there is a fundamental difference between IBOs, Network TwentyOne, and Amway.
They are not the same thing. As I have said many times, but you chose to ignore, I'm 100% certain there are N21 IBOs doing the wrong thing. I've done the wrong thing. People in my group have done the wrong thing.
What I'm talking about is what N21 *teaches* that we should be doing and what happens at official N21 functions. That is Network TwentyOne.
What an IBO does in a living room is his responsibility, though obviously N21, and Amway, has to ensure they've done their best to have that IBO doing the *right* thing.
There are other N21 ibos on the corp. blogs who have been saying exactly the same things I've been saying. Now, perhaps the UK org is a rogue org. I found out today it's actually run by a double diamond who qualified at that level as part of another organization before moving to N21 some years back. Is it possible he has even institutionalised some non-N21 practises in the organization there? (pure speculation) Yes it is, and if so, N21 most definitely has to take a deal of responsibility for that.
The fact is we really don't know enough to judge what the heck is going on.
=========================================
"This is frankly bizarre. Complaining a company markets it's products too much?"
Man you make my job so easy, do you know that?
=========================================
He's just playing his usual game.
Someone with his knowledge of statistics, mental-health, law, business, etc.etc. and cannot comprehend DTI's complaint, is either:
- having cognitive dissonance
- lying
So Brad drops by for yet another one of his drive-by comments.
Well Brad apparently by your answer you are naive enough to think ol Greg is the only one misrepresenting income. I however saw it being done every week at open meetings, home plans, etc by many different speakers. I also have a ton of e-mail with similar stories to what I have experienced, and then of course the numerous testimonies on the web have similar stories of misrepresentation of income levels. But I guess those are all just isolated incidents as well?
For those who don't know about Brad I have offered him many, many opportunities to show me where my "weak at best" posts are wrong, and each time Brad has declined with more excuses then a teenage girl explaining why she missed curfew. He talks a good game from behind his keyboard but in the end his convictions about what he claims to believe is what is truly "weak at best".
Usually the standard pattern is he comes on and makes stupid comments, gets his lunch handed to him by someone and then disappears for a while to lick his wounds, and then the cycle starts all over again.
Brad of course just wants to chalk all people who are critical of his business up to being just a bunch of angry losers out for revenge. Well even Amway and Quixtar have finally realized that there is way more to it then that and it looks like Brad refuses to leave the dark ages.
If he is naive enough to believe that Greg is the only one misrepresenting incomes, I have no doubt he is naive enough to think that critical blogs like this one, and it's authors had nothing to do with the action that is being taken even though corporate blogs say they are engaging their critics and listening.
OK Insider so now the story is we have rogue leaders taking over whole countries of IBOs and teaching them bad, bad things? LOL!...and once again the story takes a turn.
So officially now we have the DTI did not formally announce what N21 did wrong if anything, then we went to that the two claims were ridiculous, and now we have changed to the UK N21 org is a rogue org run by some nameless Double Diamond. I can't wait to see where we go from here.
One thing you don't apparently understand Insider is that the IBOs are Network 21. At what level is a teaching an official Network 21 teaching? I know you like to spin things and change up what is officially Network 21 but it just doesn't wash. Any IBO who claims to be taught under the N21 group represents that group to the consumer market, and frankly that is the only one that matters.
To those who are being recruited anyone who claims association with N21 is N21 to that individual. You get leaders teaching the wrong things in N21 and N21 will take the hit for it regardless of the spin that is put on it.
Welcome to the nature of your business. When you have IBOs out there doing wrong all will suffer the same perception. But who do you complain about instead of those IBOs? Those who write about the wrongs being done. Go figure! I guess you would just rather we shut up and continue to let people get abused.
Maybe we don't have all the information but we have enough information to know that apparently N21 didn't do their best to ensure IBOs were doing the right thing, as you say is their responsibility.
Personally I knew this was just a matter of time. You tried to wash N21 clean of any wrongs that were talked about on the web, and now it has crumbled. You have resorted to changing your story and trying to justify things by taking the responsibility to higher levels thereby narrowing the actual N21 organization. Problem is no one is buying it.
Drew, that post completely confirmed my previous one - you don't understand the difference. When I talk about Network 21, I'm talking about ummm ... Network 21. Network 21 is an incorporate company, it is not an IBO. N21 run seminars and produces and distributes other training materials. When I'm talking about N21 I'm talking about what is said at those seminars and in those materials.
As I said, if N21 is doing the wrong thing in any of those situations, then it is absolutely N21s responsibility. N21 is responsible for what speakers say at their seminars and what gets distributed on materials. They are not responsible for what individual IBOs may do. We don't know what they've been accused of, so we can't say much more than that.
IBOs are not N21 the same way IBOs are not Amway. How long have you been at this, and you don't even understand this fundamental issue?
Holy Crap you are dense. I am not talking about the distribution of materials yada yada yada. I am talking about what is represented.
I know you don't want to go this route because you know what I am saying is true. Even you have admitted that it is N21 company responsibility to make sure their IBOs are doing right, and apparently they failed miserably at that.
BTW, do you have a change in story yet.
Where do you think these complaints stem from? Stuff said on materials, CDs, books, etc? No, they stem from the actions of IBOs, those IBOs who are associated with N21 and Amway. N21's reputation is not based on the motivational crap they produce it is based off of the IBOs affiliated with their name, same goes for Amway.
Like I said welcome to the nature of your business which you clearly are having a hard time grasping. How long have you been at this distributorship thing? I think you might have a worse grasp on this then you do your propoganda spin.
Put all that aside and it appears the DTI is still not happy with N21 and their promotion of their materials they distribute and even you acknowledge that, or are you going to change gears again and blame that on IBOs?
You are making more of an ass out of yourself with each comment. Now you have gone so far as to say that IBOs are not a part of Amway or N21. Tell me this then, would Amway or N21 exist without their IBOs?
It maybe true that those IBOs are not at the headquarters of those companies making the products that are sold, but the actions of IBOs is clearly the heart and soul of Amway and N21's reputations, and it's sad to see a so-called businessman unable to grasp such an important concept.
Are you so naive to think (or so biased and angry to mislead) that Greg Fredericks was, as the only IBO interviewed, an accurate representation of all, or even most, IBOs
I've heard mis-representations. And it was from other people than that Greg Fredericks. I was in completely different group.
You wanna hear mis-representations, go to an open, and try to nail the speaker to speak specifics whenever 'lifestyle' comes up.
Too much fun for $6!
ibofightback guy, do I have your blessing to go to a N21 meetings, record it and post it on internet? It is an 'open' right? And they won't say anything wrong, would they?
OK, I've been waiting for this for a loong time.
BRAD SAID: "show honest IBOs who do not misrepresent the opportunity as Mr Fredericks did. (Who will never again do that considering the action taken against him)"
Brad! What action was taken against him? Do tell, because that has been kept pretty hush hush, and I've never been given an answer to that.
What was the consequence Mr. Fredericks received?
Grump,
Even if they did say something wrong Insider would say that it was not sanctioned by the N21 company. I don't know if that is an admission that he has knowledge of what is discussed at those levels, or if it is just more of him trying to spin the story because he has backed himself into a corner with his excuses.
Rocket,
LOL, that is just more of Brad talking before thinking which sadly he seems to do often. Of course he might have heard something from his upline and those of us that know Brad know that he is one of those IBOs that believes all that is said by his upline without question, sadly not thinking for himself. Of course that is most likely just the way his upline wants him and he seems happy to oblige.
Brad, Greg Fredericks was not the only IBO interviewed. He was the only one who made claims on hidden camera that he would not defend when confronted with them.
PW
Grump - "ibofightback guy, do I have your blessing to go to a N21 meetings, record it and post it on internet? It is an 'open' right? And they won't say anything wrong, would they?"
Umm... grump, "Insider/IBOFightback" gets notoriously 'weaselly/squirmy' when he is asked to BACK UP his claims. He has absolutely no qualms about using the most pathetic of excuses - some even lamer than the "dog ate my homework" one - he will duck and dodge, and bob and weave, and twist and squirm and weasel his way out of a corner. He's more slippery than any reptile you'll ever see.
ibofightback: Now, perhaps the UK org is a rogue org. I found out today it's actually run by a double diamond who qualified at that level as part of another organization before moving to N21 some years back. Is it possible he has even institutionalised some non-N21 practises in the organization there? (pure speculation) Yes it is, and if so, N21 most definitely has to take a deal of responsibility for that.
So which org did Jim Dornan come from? I mean where was he before starting N21? Ibofightback earlier said he has only read some "conflictig info" on this.
BTW, if your above speculation about UK org is true, does it mean that it is "officially" approved (by Jim Dornan)? Or was Jim Dornan "unaware" of everything? Is it also possible that Jim Dornan is unaware of what is happening in other countries?
insider/ibofightback claims it is a rogue segment of the organzation. That's just more spin. A rogue segment of the organization is probably the ones who run the business ethically.
Seems like running it unethically is more of the norm. insider claims that N21 excludes religion, yet dornans letter contains the word "pray" which went out to the entire organtization.
Nice try at spinning though.
OW and the other Kingpins in his organization have been meeting at his Florida compound with their attorneys planning litigation against Amway if Amway were crazy enough to mess with his tool money
John,
Do you have something more then just an accusation. Care to explain how you have the insider knowledge on what he is doing in Florida and what those conversations are about.
I am afraid if you are going to make statements like that you will need to bring much, much more then what you have if you expect anyone to take you serious.
If any IBO belonging to N21 is making false claims, and the N21 brass knows about it, it is the responsibility of N21 to make the corrections. The unitiated does not know that whether or not the IBO showing the plan is "rogue" or not, and most certainly believes the IBO represents N21.
In this case, if (and when) it can be shown there were numerous cases of N21 IBOs making false claims, it backs N21 into a bad corner. They have two potential responses. One is acknowledge the problem and come up with a proactive action plan to fix it, or two, pretend ignorance of the problem, and come up with an action plan to fix it. Either way, it doesn't shed good light on N21, because either they were complicit in not stopping the abuses, or they were ignorant of what IBOs were doing and saying in their name. Which would you rather be?
Oh, and over-promoting tools is easy to show. It's called IBO profit. If an IBO isn't profitting, but is buying more and more tools, and losing more and more money, are the tools really helping? Of course not; they are hurting. I'd imagine the DTI is going over British IBO tax returns to see just how profitable they are, and just how many tools they are buying. And if there is a correlation that the least profitable IBOs have the most tools, then it's an easy conclusion to reach that the tools are being over promoted.
So.
I was right on the money. About this being a response to 'Regulatory Action'.
NOT a 'proactive' attempt to prevent abuses.
JUST a 'reactive' response to threats of the business being shut down by the UK government.
And the fallout thereof - in terms of a 'chain-reaction' by other governments across the globe.
Ya gotta hand it to these Amway Corporation clowns! Keep it up, Little-Dickie-Devos! This could be a good 'talking-point' for your rumored second run for political office.
Posted by: perceptive - QUIXTAR-AMWAY INFILTRATOR | May 24, 2007 8:56 PM