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May 12, 2007
Amway not impressed with N21
By Truth in Amway
Well the recent drama with Amway/UK has taken another turn and one that I find quite interesting to say the least. Anyone who has spent anytime in the Quixtar Blog forums may know a member who goes by the name of Insider. For those of you who do not know Insider is an Amway Distributor overseas, he defends both Amway and Quixtar, is part of Network 21 (N21), and runs a site called "The Truth About Quixtar" under the name "IBOFightBack". So now that we are all caught up...back to the story.
Recently on his site Insider posted a letter from Jim Dornan who, from what I understand, is the founder of Network 21. Not sure what the letter said exactly because Insider has since removed it. I will comment on that more in a bit. Well apparently Amway saw the letter as well and had something to say about it over at the Amway Media Blog.
Now the reason I find this interesting is because much of Insider's past efforts has been his defense of the Network 21 group. Often Insider would try and convince others that Network 21 did not operate anything like the Quixtar Motivational Organizations here in the US. As expected many people were skeptical of his claims, with some just outright dismissing his claims as bogus. Well now it appears Amway/UK has shown that others were right to be skeptical of Insider's claims. Some of the following tidbits from the Amway Media Blog's post don't bode well for Network 21:
In its complaint against Network 21, the DTI makes serious allegations about the way Network 21 represents the Amway business opportunity in the UK.
Action first. Not ducking, not dodging, not playing games of “not me.“ Self-reflection, and then action. That is how we are approaching this matter.
The spin that Network 21 is putting on this situation is not productive.
I do encourage all readers however to go on over to the Amway Media Blog and read the entire post for yourself. You can even read Insider/IBOFightBack's comments as well.
What is most curious to me however is that Insider has now removed the letter from his website. Amway has made it clear on their blog that they did not request the letter be removed and they were simply stating that they disagreed with what Jim Dornan had to say. No doubt having Amway disagree with a letter that Insider posted doesn't exactly bode well for Insider but in my opinion his removal of the letter after that fact, without Amway requesting that it be removed, only serves to show that he must not stand as firmly behind Network 21 as he once tried to make others believe.
This of course is just another example of why I strongly encourage everyone to get every side of this business you can before you make any decision about getting involved. Trust but verify! That goes for anything I write as well. Those who want you to know the truth won't take down letters they claim to stand behind no matter what someone else's opinion about it is. Interestingly enough though Insider still leaves up his hit pieces on Eric (aka Qblog) which are full of more holes then a hunk of swiss cheese. Somewhere down the line true colors will always come out.
Comments
Can somebody send me a copy of the N21 letter? Check your temporary internet files for copies possibly stored on your computer.
"given the N21 official teachings"? Is that meant to be an expression of loyalty? All this sounds like a dangerous way of talking. What about independent thinking?
Does insider/ibofightback work for Jim Dornan?
"official teachings" and what is actually taught/suggested are often two very different things...
i have 100's of N21 tapes...have listened to them all...they teach exactly the same as IDA (Yager AMO in Australia).
I have been to multiple N21 meetings (opens) and IDA meetings (opens and more).....they teach the same and make the same BIG misrepresentations.
Insider's long held position that N21 is somehow different to all Yager spawned AMO's, and not guilty of the same crimes et al is absurd.
So, is this a case of "we don't do that"?
Amway says: "WE don't do that"
N-21 says: "WE don't do that"
N-21 says: "Not in OUR Organization"
Amway says: "Not in OUR Corporation"
Blame someone ELSE?
I've heard THAT before.
Tell Fitzpatrick to call me, I'll fill him in.
Is the FTC watching this?
Come on Insider, post the complaint.
BWW blows up in the UK "Reform the system" IBOS banned.
I have just heard on the Amway grapevine that the British worldwide team leaders (I think that is what the abbreviation BWW stands for) held a meeting with their US upline, on Sunday 13th May.
Apparently some of the leaders were banned from the meeting for apparent dissent and lack of loyalty, bullies always use these mind games, dont they. They had a 7 point plan drawn up to improve the system.
This involved less function, working far closer with Amway and an idea for the system to be 95% UK training by IBOS, NOT AS IT IS in its present format, 95% US training aids and US speakers.And a total open book to ibos and Amway.In other words a system for the people by the people of the people.
The US leaders made it clear they were not welcome at the meeting. I wonder why?
Free Speech and free enterprise rules ok!
it would appear the US leaders are as blind to whats needed to be done as ever. A banned ibo ruby said "they are just like the captain of the titanic, when told there was an iceburg ahead, he said this ship is unsinkable".
Ben Woodward and rich De vos i hope and pray you break this type of power mad, money grabbing mafia organisation.The system lords have destroyed many businesses and worse people faith in human nature.
All the break ups in the business can be tracked back to system money. it is the archilles heel of a wonderful business.
We look forward to working with the new image Amway.
Winning or failing on effort not by merchants of control.
Insider/ibofightback,
You made my point for me. You admit to removing the letter after the reaction from Amway, which plainly shows you have no interest in Truth you only have interest in your one-sided agenda.
Having Amway not agree with what Jim Dornan had to say does not look good for Network 21 and therefore does not look good for you, the person who has been telling everyone about how different N21 is from all the others.
I have no doubt N21 asked you to remove the letter because they are just as disinterested in the truth as you are. It's a propaganda game for you and them plain and simple.
You can dance around this all day and all night but the plain hard truth is you just showed your true colors. All that nonsense on your site about having facts, etc. is nothing more then one-sided BS.
You remove a letter that you still say you see nothing wrong with, but you keep up your BS hit-pieces on Qblog that don't have a lick of truth to them.
I find it ironic justice that the organization you spent so much time trying to defend as different from the others gets slammed by Amway in a way no organization has ever gotten it before. I am sure there are other organizations involved but for some reason N21 has been the one getting the press lately and what is even more ironic justice is that N21 most likely has it's name front and center in this whole mess because of you posting that letter.
Your time to prove what your site represented came and you flinched, and in that showed that you are only interested in what sounds good for you and Amway, and nothing else. I guess in your world that is the Truth about Quixtar and Amway, but here in reality it is called deception and propaganda.
More on the "official teachings" comment: Insider is not just talking of his business meetings. He said he has been giving N21 teachings in all his posts on the net. Insider, would you like to remove some more of those posts?
insider has left the building!
*sound of a pin dropping*
SORRY HAVE REPUT MY POST BWW blows up in the UK "Reform the system" IBOS banned.in Quixtar news
I pulled the post because the Amway reaction indicated there was something in it I missed. Given there are court cases ongoing and I didn't, and don't, want to get wrapped up in them, I thought that the best course of action. About the same time I received a request from N21 not to post it - apparently for the same reason, Amway's reaction.
If N21 had not actually asked me not to post it I would repost it, but I will not post private correspondence from anyone, whether it's from Scott Larsen or Jim Dornan, if they ask me not to post it. I'd consider that unethical. Says a lot about you folk that you don't.
mwood - please enlighten us about what problems you've encountered at n21 opens. Material presented at official N21 opens is supposed to have been approved by Amway. So if there's something you don't like, then it's something Amway thinks is fine.
The reason n21 is getting the press is because I posted the letter and Amway reacted the way they did. Frankly, given what the letter says, which is not a lot, and entirely supportive of Amway, I was pretty shocked by the reaction. There's obviously a lot lot more going on than any of us are aware of.
I have not reposted the letter purely because the "owners" of it have asked me not to. I would extend the same courtesy to anybody else who asked. Frankly I'm pretty disgusted you folk think that is the wrong thing to do.
...and once again by removing the letter based on the reaction you proved that your site is exactly what I said it would be from the start. The Truth how Insider wants it to be seen.
So now you have the moral high ground do you? Don't you consider it unethical to put up hit pieces,that have no truth to them, about those that you disagree with?
Your site has been exposed as nothing but propaganda, and it's no surprise to me that you are being selective in what you address in your responses.
ibofb,
after pulling the letter, why would you have reposted it (if Jim Dornan hadn't ask for it to be pulled)? To again risk getting wrapped up in court cases? Your explanations are difficult to believe.
Jim Dornan sends a letter to IBOs, but doesn't want the general public to know about it (only because of Amway's reaction, as you say). Does it mean Jim Dornan withdrew his statements made to IBOs? No.
That gives an idea of how the "official teachings" of N21 are given, yet you "stand by more support of N21 as an organization".
BTW in your first post above, you almost admitted to having acted as an N21 spokesperson while posting on the net. That can happen unknowingly after sufficient number of meetings and tapes.
Ibofightback better start bailing water faster because the ship is sinking. :D
In the spirit of facts, I should update my previous post. Jim Dornan's second letter effectively means that he withdrew his first, even if evidently under considerable pressure from Amway and all the publicity. We can only guess how much of the letter was dictated by Amway, but I agree with the statement that this matter is "too important to be spun" :-)
Yes, doing what it takes to fix the business, improve the business, make the business work for your customers and IBOs — that’s how you lead. Thank you, Jim.
I am quite obviously a supporter of N21, that's never been a secret. I'm also a supporter of Amway. I'm not a "spokesperson" for either. When something gets the kind of reaction that letter got, there's obviously more going on than I'm aware of, so I pulled it to think about what was going on. There is a court case happening or going happen in the UK, I don't want to end up with a subpoena or similar, as has happened to other folk. N21 also asked me not to post it, apparently in light of amway's reaction. Also a sensible move I would think. Dornan has now given a public response, and they've ok'd me reposting their letter. Despite what others here apparently think, I believe if someones asks their private correspondence not be posted, that should be respected, even if I think it's damaging to them. Go read it yourself now.
I never saw much of Jim Dornan's teachings except one of his books, so it was interesting to see that he also believes in invoking God in the same letter in which he misrepresents facts to suit his business needs.
So God is really an inseparable part of all the Systems' official teachings?
Dear Leaders,
I am writing to you today in response to a recent communication between the Company and the IBO leadership. This development has arisen from a filing by the DTI (Dept of Trade and Industry) in the UK against Amway. Because of relationship with Amway the DTI has also included Network 21, and other support systems in the UK in their "complaint". We have been fully aware of the situation for some months. We have been in full dialog and discussion with the company throughout the past few days, and we are understanding of their strategy and their need for strong actions to remedy the problem that has been highlighted by this government agency.
I am sure this will indeed be a time of trial for our UK friends, as well as you who have businesses in the UK, but much like with China, I am also sure we will discover how resilient they are, and be proud of the commitment and trust they will show in moving through this period of uncertainly.
I can assure you that although this action by the UK regulatory body is based on what we believe to be distortions, half truths and largely isolated incidents, and although I know The Company, N21 and others will defend it vigorously, we also recognize the power of such agencies…. and therefore the seriousness of this issue. The company in UK must take strong action at this point, and we are preparing to support this effort to reposition our UK business and the training aspects in a way that allows for healthy long term growth and stability.
We believe, based on conversations with the company, and also based on the accusations in the documents that our N21 leaders, as well as our tools and meetings, are among the most responsible presented. We have an excellent reputation regarding the responsible conduct of our affairs. We feel we can work with the company there to have our materials vetted and approved (those that are not already), and we can as always submit to any content review of our seminar programs.
We know this may lead to a further tightening of the approval process in Europe in order to assure that no IBO misrepresents the company or product without consequences, but this could very well be "good" for those like N21 who already endeavor to be responsible. A "housecleaning" of irresponsible IBO's and systems could be a good thing for all.
We will be deeply involved at all levels in the follow up discussions on how this will play out in the UK and then obviously continue to dialog on what actions if any are needed elsewhere. No need to worry, as we have survived such things many times in our history. Many people attack our business for many reasons; jealousy, ignorance, prejudice, competitive advantage, etc. We all know that when properly done and taught…this is still the best place in the world to make a positive difference in other's lives. Let's keep doing just that.
We are currently undergoing a similar discussion in the US regarding a better way to form "business relations" between the support/training systems that we all value and the company, so that we can protect the brand for all of us. Jeff Neuber has been on a special task force set up by Doug and Steve and the Founders Council here to address ideas to improve the way we all deal with the reality of systems and their value, while addressing the concerns of the market. It has been a healthy and open discussion.
I am sure that some will see this as a new "threat" to our right to operate separate training and support operations globally, and our existence as "independent" entrepreneurs". I choose to see it as a path to a better future where we can operate openly and effectively while partnering with the company to assure responsible behavior. We have always done just that.
I ask you all to pray as always for wisdom and God's protection as we seek solutions to this current issue in the UK…. and then to find appropriate ways to address the issue globally. Keep dreaming and building because we still know what we have is something others need and want. No change in that fact. We will keep you in the loop on this as we learn more.
Jim Dornan
Supposedly this is the May 5th letter from N21's Jim Dornan
about the UK DTI investigation that was made public on the web.
____________________________________
Dear Leaders,
I am writing to you today in response to a recent communication between the Company and the IBO leadership. This development has arisen from a filing by the DTI (Dept of Trade and Industry) in the UK against Amway. Because of relationship with Amway the DTI has also included Network 21, and other support systems in the UK in their "complaint". We have been fully aware of the situation for some months. We have been in full dialog and discussion with the company throughout the past few days, and we are understanding of their strategy and their need for strong actions to remedy the problem that has been highlighted by this government agency.
I am sure this will indeed be a time of trial for our UK friends, as well as you who have businesses in the UK, but much like with China, I am also sure we will discover how resilient they are, and be proud of the commitment and trust they will show in moving through this period of uncertainly.
I can assure you that although this action by the UK regulatory body is based on what we believe to be distortions, half truths and largely isolated incidents, and although I know The Company, N21 and others will defend it vigorously, we also recognize the power of such agencies…. and therefore the seriousness of this issue. The company in UK must take strong action at this point, and we are preparing to support this effort to reposition our UK business and the training aspects in a way that allows for healthy long term growth and stability.
We believe, based on conversations with the company, and also based on the accusations in the documents that our N21 leaders, as well as our tools and meetings, are among the most responsible presented. We have an excellent reputation regarding the responsible conduct of our affairs. We feel we can work with the company there to have our materials vetted and approved (those that are not already), and we can as always submit to any content review of our seminar programs.
We know this may lead to a further tightening of the approval process in Europe in order to assure that no IBO misrepresents the company or product without consequences, but this could very well be "good" for those like N21 who already endeavor to be responsible. A "housecleaning" of irresponsible IBO's and systems could be a good thing for all.
We will be deeply involved at all levels in the follow up discussions on how this will play out in the UK and then obviously continue to dialog on what actions if any are needed elsewhere. No need to worry, as we have survived such things many times in our history. Many people attack our business for many reasons; jealousy, ignorance, prejudice, competitive advantage, etc. We all know that when properly done and taught…this is still the best place in the world to make a positive difference in other's lives. Let's keep doing just that.
We are currently undergoing a similar discussion in the US regarding a better way to form "business relations" between the support/training systems that we all value and the company, so that we can protect the brand for all of us. Jeff Neuber has been on a special task force set up by Doug and Steve and the Founders Council here to address ideas to improve the way we all deal with the reality of systems and their value, while addressing the concerns of the market. It has been a healthy and open discussion.
I am sure that some will see this as a new "threat" to our right to operate separate training and support operations globally, and our existence as "independent" entrepreneurs". I choose to see it as a path to a better future where we can operate openly and effectively while partnering with the company to assure responsible behavior. We have always done just that.
I ask you all to pray as always for wisdom and God's protection as we seek solutions to this current issue in the UK…. and then to find appropriate ways to address the issue globally. Keep dreaming and building because we still know what we have is something others need and want. No change in that fact. We will keep you in the loop on this as we learn more.
Jim Dornan
knverma said: Jim Dornan sends a letter to IBOs, but doesn't want the general public to know about it (only because of Amway's reaction, as you say). Does it mean Jim Dornan withdrew his statements made to IBOs? No.
Joe says: IMO, this is how some of the "sneaky" stuff is taught. Either at smaller meetings with directs and up who then "counsel" their downline.
It's not said at big functions and/or open meetings - thus insider's "spin" that N21 doesn't teach it.
What insider really means is that it's not taught at big functions. Obviously some of these things insider denies, such as "pushing of tools" and crazy IBO claims are taught by some N21 upline - or N21 downlines wouldn't do some of what they do.
Beth Dornan said:
Wednesday, May 30, 2007 | #
Response to JoeCool...no, Network21 is not accredited (you can see the organizations that currently meet accreditation criteria at www.quixtaraccreditation.com.)
At this point accreditation is optional and organizations can choose whether or not to pursue accreditation.
BWW is Britt Worldwide, named after the US IBO who is the upline sponsor of all the other IBOs in the organization.
Bill Britt was sponsored in the Yager orgnization and developed a system of Business support materials, seminars and rallies
Recent moves by the company to promote accreditation are good moves that continue to help the orgnizations correct abuses. Recently some of our local leaders in Manitoba have been stating that leaders platinum and above do make some profit on business support materials
The introduction of some products that are market priced is a good trend, though some work needs to be done on further price reductions. Profits lost in the short term could be dramatically recouped in the longer term.
BWW supporter
I retracted the post with the letter because the reaction seemed completely out of sync with the context of the letter. This said to me that there must be something going on we don't know about. About the same time I retracted it I also received a request from N21 not to post it.
Neither myself or other IBOs quite understand why Amway reacted how they did. The problem is none of us actually know what the allegations against Amway, N21 and other organizations are. N21 in the letter basically said they felt the allegations were baseless and fully supported Amway. There was one sentence that could be read to mean N21 consider they'd been caught up in something because of their connection to amway, and not that the allegations had anything to do with N21 per se. My guess is that this is what amway took exception too, with the corp believing they've been caught in a bad situation because of something N21 or N21 ibos have done.
I stand by more support of N21 as an organization, and throughout my time posting on the internet I have (a) given my truthful and honest appearance (b) given the N21 official teachings and (c) acknowledged that there will always be people who do the wrong thing, that I've had people in my own downline do the wrong thing, and that, given it's size, I've been surprised at how *few* complaints there are regarding N21 IBOs.
Have some N21 IBOs done the wrong thing in the UK? I'd bet money that there are N21 IBOs who have done the wrong thing, I'd bet the same with virtually any IBO organization. People are people. Has N21 as an organization done something seriously wrong thing in the UK? Honestly, I'd be extremely surprised if this was the case, and I'd be even more surprised if it was done with the blessing or knowledge of the head office.
Remember, there has been a concerted campaign with the DTI by someone who knows little to nothing at all about MLM (FitzPatrick). These may be true and serious allegations, or the case may be as ridiculous as the class action in california.
Posted by: ibofightback | May 13, 2007 12:25 AM