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April 7, 2007
Real Criticism
By Drew in A/QMOs
Whenever we signed up a new Quixtar IBO our upline taught us that we were supposed to do all we could to shield that IBO from criticism about Quixtar. Pretty much an impossible task. I never quite understood the apparent fear my upline and many other IBOs had of the criticism about Quixtar, and I still don't understand it today.
Another thing I still do not understand to this day is the blatant dismissal of anything that is perceived as negative about Quixtar. Anything that is seen as negative is immediately dismissed and is taboo to even speak about. I wondered if they even understood the consequences of closing yourself off in a bubble of your own little Quixtar world essentially detaching from reality.
Criticism exists anywhere about pretty much anything. It comes in all kinds of ways, from all different types of people, for all kinds of different reasons. Sure it's easy just to dismiss all of it as nonsense and move on about your ways paying it no mind; but the flaw in that logic is some criticism can be of great value. It can teach a lesson, give warning to bumps in the road on your journey, or even spawn an idea of new opportunity.
When I started my side business a while back one of the most important things I did was research the criticism of the industry I was about to venture into. I didn't want to be just another business in the game. I wanted to be different in my own way, and in that brand my business as unique. To do that I needed to know what others had done that was being criticized, and what they were not doing that was bringing in equal criticism.
This of course is no easy task because basically you need to sort out the BS in order to find the real criticism. After it was all said and done I realized that sorting out the BS is simply done by asking one very simple and easy question to every piece of criticism....WHY?
Quixtar sucks!....WHY?
Quixtar business will never work!....WHY?
Quixtar is nothing but a scam!....WHY?
I did Quixtar and it never worked....WHY?
Hopefully that illustrates the point. Now you also have to understand that you are not asking this question to start an argument or heated discussion about this business, you are doing it because you really want to hear that answer. The answer to your question will be how you can tell if it is just BS, or if it has any value to you. For example, if the person just looks at you with a blank stare like you just asked them what is the square root of 9,745,245 then you know they are full of BS and you can go about your day.
If they do have an answer however, the value of that answer will be completely subjective. What one person might see as valuable, another might see it as BS, and vice versa. I believe real criticism should always be embraced and not feared. Do not fear a prospect doing a Google search of Quixtar and reading the dreaded "negative" sites. Talk about the criticism during the plan, and by that I mean actually talk about it. Those rah-rah speeches about if you want to be a doctor you only talk to doctors doesn't do anything to help, trust me!
Don't feel like you need to shield anyone from anything. Instead help them understand the value in criticism and how to know if it has actual value, or if it is simply BS. Your prospects and downline are going to eventually research it anyway. If there is some criticism out there that is going to make them say no to this business, better to find out earlier then later.
Comments
Anon - I feel the most important thing an IBO can do is to do what you are saying - admit that IBOs have been taken advantage of by their AMOs - and "here's why you will do it differently".
When I owned a retail hot tub store - I had to battle the slimeballs in THAT industry, too. We were quite successful by being perfectly honest with our customers, and *encouraging* them to shop around and make the best decision. Since many of my competitors were into the hard-sell, sign-now "we hire professional closers" mode..... our "style" was appreciated by many.
It's ALWAYS best to see both sides of an issue.
Deb
RESEARCH:
I looked at the critics briefly too... I have to admit I didn't understand some of the critics terminology. I also didn't know how LONG critics actually applied themselves. I knew this was a long term project. On paper it looked POSSIBLE. Just being POSSIBLE was good enough for me, I didn't need a guarantee, or care about odds and averages, just that it was POSSIBLE. In fact if I acheived a fraction of the wealth projectd, I would be satisfied. Of course they told you "once you got this going, it would go on and grow wildly out of control no matter what you did" - ha. We know now, THAT WAS A LIE.
GOING ONLINE:
The prospects of Quixtar opening up online (1999) was exciting. Ordering repetitive merchandise on a monthly basis seemed logical.
TOOLS:
I always believed in the value of tools, and motivation. I had no problem buying things that I thought would help my downline get started easier, grow faster and become successful. I would await my rewards later. "We don't make money 'till YOU make money" was my favorite saying.
What I didn't realize, was all their projections were LIES:
PV Ratios, Selection of products (we have 'everything'), Excessive consumption required, primarily a vitamin and cosmetic shop, prices too high to retail, low markup/profit on most items, low volume discounts (for case lots), high shipping costs for low weight products (value $ based shipping), service charges (since dropped), high cost of catalogs, brochures and more. ALL THESE THINGS IMPACTED RECRUITING, SELLING AND PROFITABILITY. The only thing left to do was 'Recruiting' and 'Buy from yourself, teach others to do the same'. The Corp. charged exhorbitant prices to a captive audience.
REPUTATION
The company's reputation was worse than I could have imagined. You were actually taught NOT TO USE THE COMPANY'S NAME. This reputation transitioned easily from Amway to Quixtar; SAME BUSINESS NOTHING CHANGED.
MY OPINION NOW, AFTER 5-6 YEARS:
1. CULT - Brainwashing via tapes, seminars, excessive income projections, and LIES.
2. PYRAMID:THINLY DISGUISED BY 'PRODUCTS'
The 'Critics' were RIGHT. It just took me LONGER TO SEE IT (2-5 YEARS-HA)
READ THE BOOK:
"Amway, the Cult of Free Enterprise" by Steve Butterfield, and see for yourself.
JUDGE FOR YOURSELF.
I as talking to a fellow who used to work in a cellular phone store. He shared with me the reason he left that store for a different company. (I don't remember which company it was, so I won't name one.)
He said that the sales staff at his store only got commissions on NEW cell phone sales, not on renewals. So a customer who walked in with a phone from their company on an existing plan who was looking to renew his contract for another two years would actually get worse customer service from his store than a customer with NO phone service starting up fresh.
My friend found out later that the other sales guys in that store would sell customers out of their renewal and onto the "money saving features" of a pay-as-you-go plan because the PAYG sales counted towards the "new phone" commissions for the salesman, giving the sales guys money that they would not have received by renewing the customer's current service. Whether it was a good deal for the customer or not made no difference at all. It was ALL about the commission.
My friend quit because, although the other sales guys were eventually fired for messing with the customers this way, he could not keep up with the sales numbers these ill-gotten sales had netted the company. The number never revised their sales figures to account for the shenanigans these guys were perpetrating.
It's important to know what kinds of criticisms are being leveled at a company, since not knowing about them can cost you dearly, sometimes as a customer, but especially as an employee or a partner.
PW
Willy said: "What I didn't realize, was all their projections were LIES:
PV Ratios, Selection of products (we have 'everything'), Excessive consumption required, primarily a vitamin and cosmetic shop, prices too high to retail, low markup/profit on most items, low volume discounts (for case lots), high shipping costs for low weight products (value $ based shipping), service charges (since dropped), high cost of catalogs, brochures and more. ALL THESE THINGS IMPACTED RECRUITING, SELLING AND PROFITABILITY. The only thing left to do was 'Recruiting' and 'Buy from yourself, teach others to do the same'. The Corp. charged exhorbitant prices to a captive audience."
Anon: "See. It's statements like these that confuse the heck out of me. PV Ratios bad? What exactly does that mean, Willy? As far as number of products....there are literally MILLIONS and growing! Excessive Consumption required.......HUH?!?!?!?
Primarily a Vitamin & Cosmetic shop. Not gonna argue too much with you on that one, Willy. They do promote those two exclusive product lines. I just happen to "buy what they say" because of all the research, the comparisons (quality, quantity, price, access) and the health aspect of it. I LOVE Nutrilite & Artistry! I know many others who do too!
"prices too high to retail, low markup/profit on most items, low volume discounts (for case lots), high shipping costs for low weight products (value $ based shipping), service charges (since dropped), high cost of catalogs, brochures and more"
Prices being too high is extremely relative & subjective. I really don't get where you are coming from. Are the Exclusive brands more than the dollar store? Yes! More than most of their counterparts at a warehouse discount store like Target or Walmart? Initially, yes! But if you truly do your homework & compare amounts used and how often you have to buy the cheapo brand more than the Quixtar brand and when you look at the quality.....you're talking a whole different story!
As far as all the other products go....I really don't know where you are getting your information. 85-90% of the time, you will get a name-brand item cheaper on the Quixtar site than you will at the retail store. Same exact product. Many partners offer shipping deals too so that's becoming less of an issue every day.
Besides, no one goes around saying we're the cheapest. That's not what we offer.
Low profit/markup - on the Exclusive Brands and most of the Store for More products...untrue. On alot of the services & the online products, yup! Relatively speaking, very true. That's why we say the Exclusive Products are the 'Meat & Potatoes' of your business. The Store for More products are the 'side dishes' and the online partner stores are your 'desserts & icing on the cake'!
You don't have to purchase in high volume anymore, Willy. And, shipping is FREE with orders of $75.00 or more for clients. If you're a new IBO, shipping if FREE for the first 90 days and if you're an existing IBO, shipping is FREE with orders of $750.00 or more (which is easy with a family of 4 or more for a month's worth of shopping!).
High cost of catalogs? $2.50 apiece for a Choices or a Store For More. I pay more than that for a gossip rag at the grocery store! C'mon! Artistry catalogs are just over a buck apiece. Same with Nutrilite. Many other brochures are something like 10 for $9.95. I think that's a GREAT price. Their marketing brochures & dvd's are among the best I've ever seen.
Your arguments may have 'held water' 5 or more years ago, Willy. But not today. Besides, 5 or more years ago, a hell of alot of people STILL made a hell of alot of money.
How do you explain that, Willy?
I have to wonder how a family of 4 spends $750 a month on consumable products. Mine is a family of three, plus one dog and a cat, and add up our grocery store bills plus Target bills, and it doesn't add up to $750. Probably closer to $600/month. Of course, we don't buy/use vitamins; we'd rather buy and eat nutritional foods.
I have also never found the savings from Amway/Quixtar to be true on the majority of items. Pound for pound it doesn't add up most of the time. Sure IBOs can claim higher quality, but quality is subjective to the user, and I've never found the products that significantly better to warrent the higher costs.
Last, five years ago and today, a lot of people weren't making a lot of money. A lot of people are making a small amount of money, with a small amount of people making a lot of money. That's how you get an average IBO income of $130/month. That's not to say it can't and isn't working for you. Just it isn't working for a lot of people.
Anon, YOU are Brainwashed.
Anon
If a prospect isn't into the health and beauty line of Quixtar's items, the whole business seems illogical. I remember the first time my brother-in-law showed me a catalog, I immediately was drawn to the items that I purchased the most at that time--diapers, cereal, cleaners, groceries--and I was immediately turned off, and rightfully so. The only time I willingly pay more for stuff that I regularly need is in support a fundraiser, like when I buy ovepriced cookie dough, candy bars, etc.) Everything was more expensive. A few years later on when my sis-in-law took me down the "dream building" road, and the whole quixtar world sounded like a panacea for all the world's problems. I think they've learned how to show the plan in a more effective way now.
Anon
Yeah, but I could have spent probably $600.00 and have gotten comparable items just by shopping intelligently elsewhere (Wait until things go on sale and stock up. NEVER pay full retail!). But..I may be assuming too much. Maybe at level where you spend $750 a month, you've spent enough to get $150 back. If that's the case, sign me up.
Anon, YOU are Brainwashed.
Posted by: Willy | April 10, 2007 12:44 AM
Now THERE'S an intelligent statement, Willy boy! ha!
DMM: "I have to wonder how a family of 4 spends $750 a month on consumable products. Mine is a family of three, plus one dog and a cat, and add up our grocery store bills plus Target bills, and it doesn't add up to $750. Probably closer to $600/month. Of course, we don't buy/use vitamins; we'd rather buy and eat nutritional foods."
Anon: "Dmm, add up ALL of your receipts for the month...for everything except perishables. I think you'd be very surprised! We sit in meetings where we have couples go through what they spend per month on coffees, convenience store junk (Mountain Dew, bottle of water, bag of chips, etc.), school lunches, movie treats, etc. In other words, luxury food & drink items. The AVERAGE amount on this is right around $800.00! I've seen as low as $300.00 and as high as $2200 (for a yuppie couple!). We live in Mpls., to give you an idea of the local costs. This $800.00 is on LUXURY FOOD & DRINKS!!!!!! Not mortgage. Not groceries. Not utility bills. Just extra, luxury-type of edibles."
Dmm: "I have also never found the savings from Amway/Quixtar to be true on the majority of items. Pound for pound it doesn't add up most of the time. Sure IBOs can claim higher quality, but quality is subjective to the user, and I've never found the products that significantly better to warrent the higher costs."
Anon: "You and I have had different experiences then, my friend. I personally have either experienced or witnessed many situations where the name-brand product was purchased on our site at a lesser cost than the local store. Or even other websites in a few cases!"
IM: "Yeah, but I could have spent probably $600.00 and have gotten comparable items just by shopping intelligently elsewhere (Wait until things go on sale and stock up. NEVER pay full retail!). But..I may be assuming too much. Maybe at level where you spend $750 a month, you've spent enough to get $150 back. If that's the case, sign me up."
Anon: "You and I are completely different in that respect. I have NEVER EVER purposefully sought out sales. Ugh! Who has the time?!?!??? IM, I think it's highly unrealistic to think that most families will shop this way. I actually tried coupons once. Put them in my wallet...right next to my cash. Forgot to give them to the clerk every time! I finally just said...the hell with it! I just ask for the coupon price & 99% of the time, I get it!
I spoke to a mom friend of mine who told me she actually takes TWO WHOLE HOURS every Sunday to scour the newspaper for coupons and sales! I could not believe it! I didn't know what to say to her after that. I just thought that I sure wouldn't share that with too many people & I sure wouldn't be proud of that! What about family time? What about productive time? Or even just relaxing on a Sunday afternoon? It just seemed crazy to me. I have a couple people in my business who won't retail for 1-2 hours a week (and potentially make hundreds of dollars as a result) but they'll clip coupons to save a few pennies? There's a reason they'll be on a "budget" or living paycheck to paycheck for the rest of their lives!"
Are you serious about that $150.00 remark? Or just kidding (sarcastically). ;-)
It seems backwards to me that shipping is free at the $75 level for clients, but not until $750 for the IBO. Shouldn't being a distributor (presumably purchasing much more, and basically bearing all the advertising and marketing burden and expenses alone) get at LEAST the same deal as the (alleged) occassional shopper?
This disparity only makes sense if the corp knows that there is a reason that the IBO will allow him/herself to be treated this way. But I guess the corp's experience with, and profit from, it's captive marketplace have taught it very well.
Where's the eye-rolling emoticon when you need it?
Hey Anon,
Would you like to take this debate over to the FORUM? It's a lot easier to 'quote', and do a point-by-point debate. I have been meaning to debate this with you for a little while. But the comment format on the blog section here is a little too cumbersome, and time-consuming.
What say you?
Anon, how long have you been in the business?
It's tax time, which means we just did reviewed all of our spending for 2006. We added up all the grocery and consumable bills, and it was just over $600/month. About $85/week on groceries, and $65/week for everything else. Of course, some months its higher (we go to Costco about one every 3 months and stock up on things like toilet paper), but the average is about $600.
As for our luxery food and drink (non-entertainment) items, that too is minimal. I maybe go to Starbucks once a month, and my wife, no more than once a week, and that's mostly for a business meeting (she's an independant sales contractor). We do have an entertainment budget for movies and sporting events, but I don't consider those luxeries. If anything, we could spend less on dining out, since we tend to indulge when we go.
I guess I'm not your typical person when it comes to looking at what is one sale either. My wife and I tend to read the ad circulars for the grocery stores we shop at and plan our weekly meals based on what is on sale. Takes about 20 minutes, once a week. Again, we do also stock up at Costco about once a quarter, and, for the most part, don't buy the most expensive name-brand product. There is almost always another brand, less expensive, that we find of equal quality.
" Anon: "Dmm, add up ALL of your receipts for the month...for everything except perishables. I think you'd be very surprised! We sit in meetings where we have couples go through what they spend per month on coffees, convenience store junk (Mountain Dew, bottle of water, bag of chips, etc.), school lunches, movie treats, etc. In other words, luxury food & drink items. The AVERAGE amount on this is right around $800.00! I've seen as low as $300.00 and as high as $2200 (for a yuppie couple!). We live in Mpls., to give you an idea of the local costs. This $800.00 is on LUXURY FOOD & DRINKS!!!!!! Not mortgage. Not groceries. Not utility bills. Just extra, luxury-type of edibles."
Anon makes an excellent point here. How many people do we all know that spend 5, 10, 20 dollars a day or even more on those types of items? So an 800.00 avg is easy to believe.
But, a little self-discipline and a little habit changing could capture a lot of that back. 500.00 a month wouldn't be unrealistic.
No meetings, CD/Tapes, functions, etc. needed.
500.00/ month could start a nice savings account - a vacation fund - pay off some bills - give to charity (20 months will get you that magic $10,000 check! ...AND they get their money now, when they need it)
If an unenlighted non-IBO dolt like me can figure that out...and make it happen living paycheck-to-paycheck, (cut the waste - treat investment and savings as a bill in my budget every month) like 99.9% of IBO's, think of what the brilliant people here can do.
If people paid a little more attention, they would see they have more money than meets the eye.
I'm shaking my head in disbelief (where is the emoticon for THAT?)...
Here's what CK said: "It seems backwards to me that shipping is free at the $75 level for clients, but not until $750 for the IBO. Shouldn't being a distributor (presumably purchasing much more, and basically bearing all the advertising and marketing burden and expenses alone) get at LEAST the same deal as the (alleged) occassional shopper?"
Anon: "First off, you guys complain about the biz being too focused on IBO's & business builders. So the corporation is working diligently to make it easier and more reasonable for the clients/customers/prosumers. We are focused heavily on getting customers. Toward that end, they created free shipping (orders of $75 or more), products that are very attractive and competitive for the average consumer (XS, Trim Advantage, Artistry, etc.) and much more user-friendly websites.
But that's not enough for you, is it? No matter what Quixatar or the QMO's do, you will not be satisfied. You simply love to critique & complain, don't you?
Once again, the head is shaking in disbelief."
Dmm said: "We do have an entertainment budget for movies and sporting events, but I don't consider those luxeries."
Anon: "What do you consider them, then? Necessities???
Dmm, so your wife goes to work full-time too? Where are the kiddo's? Or are they now in school full-time?"
Perceptive,
I have to check it out. I'm really trying to get away from these sites. Seriously. Even if I weren't in the biz, they are very depressing to read. Just brings me down....
Isa,
Almost four years. Why do you want to know?
If it is unrealistic to think that most people don't look for sales, why do stores grocery stores print weekly fliers with their sales ads? Why do stores have sales? Why is JCPenney filled to the brim when they have a big sale campaign? Could it be that people wait until the retail prices are marked down? Many of my friends tell me about their favorite retail stores (JCP, Kohls, Herbergers) where they shop, but never buying at the regular retail price--always during sales.
I don't coupon, either, but I do read the weekly sales ad from my local grocery stores. I go when I perishables and milk, I stock up on their lost leaders. It's really not all that difficult--read the ad, write up a list. It's called being a smart consumer. I never pay more than $2 for a box of cereal, $2/pound of hamburger, $1 for jar of peanut butter or ketchup...the list goes on. I can even shop online at my local grocery stores and, if I so desire, they deliver to my for only $5 Retail stores thrive on people who shop unwisely and just buy things when they need them.
"I just ask for the coupon price & 99% of the time, I get it!"
They really give you credit for a coupon without having the coupon?
Anon, maybe you and I run with a different crowd, but hardly anybody I know buys stuff at the regular retail price. (I meant to add this to my last entry.)
Entertainment is exactly that. Not a luxery, and much closer to a necessity. All work and no play makes dmm go crazy.
The wife stayed at home for about the first six months after our only child was born. Out of necessity, (poor financial decisions), she had to go to work full-time. So, the kid is in full-time daycare. The wife is an independant contractor and does make her own hours, but the kid does much better on a schedule that we try our best to keep to.
When we first put the kid in daycare, I was very upset. But now, she actually asks to go, and has a good time. My wife has plenty of flexibility in her schedule that it is easy to work around doctor appointments, and I'm fortunate enough to have an understanding boss that gives me time when needed.
And no, I don't think a Quixtar income could replace what my wife makes minus the daycare charges. And unfortunately, due to the aformentioned circumstances, we truly need the higher income if we are to pay our bills on time. Yes this has cut the entertainment budget a lot (as did having a baby in the first place), but we still have one. We are waiting for the summer movie blockbusters (Spiderman III anyone?), and believe me, when you live in the desert southwest with high temps consistantly over 100 degrees daily, watching a movie in air conditioning isn't a luxery...it's quite therapeutic.
Bruce: "But, a little self-discipline and a little habit changing could capture a lot of that back. 500.00 a month wouldn't be unrealistic.
500.00/ month could start a nice savings account - a vacation fund - pay off some bills - give to charity (20 months will get you that magic $10,000 check! ...AND they get their money now, when they need it)"
Anon: "I agree wholeheartedly with you Bruce! However, the reality is, most people do NOT do this. They are either too lazy or just not willing to discipline themselves to do this! I also think that most families could be able to raise their own kids if they were willing to make some changes & sacrifices....but most are not willing." Great in theory...but seldom put to practice. Much like this business....it's a wonderful concept & actually works....IF YOU WORK IT!"
Yes, one important point. When I buy many consumables such as soap, I wait for Walmart to have a discount or sale price and but it then. I don't recall ever hearing about quixtar having a sale or discount day.
IM: "I don't coupon, either, but I do read the weekly sales ad from my local grocery stores. I go when I perishables and milk, I stock up on their lost leaders. It's really not all that difficult--read the ad, write up a list. It's called being a smart consumer."
Anon: "Good for you, you smart little shopper, you! I personally, have never ever gone out of my way to chase down a sale. If I hear of one or run across one when out & about then I may take advantage of it. That's about it."
IM: "They really give you credit for a coupon without having the coupon?"
Anon: "Yup!"
IM: "Anon, maybe you and I run with a different crowd, but hardly anybody I know buys stuff at the regular retail price. (I meant to add this to my last entry.)"
Anon: "Maybe we do IM. However, I know many many moms who go to Walmart & Target (sometimes 3-5 times a week!!!) and buy stuff right off the shelf. Can you believe it?
Also, if you think that the retailers aren't 'scamming' you by marking the stuff waaaaaaay up....just to 'put it on sale', you've got your head stuck in the sand. It's the biggest scam there is....
Rather than give them most of my money, I'd rather buy the same or better products and keep the "markup" for myself and my family".
Anon said - Perceptive, I have to check it out. I'm really trying to get away from these sites. Seriously. Even if I weren't in the biz, they are very depressing to read. Just brings me down....
But you ARE already debating here on the blog, quite a bit.... so what's the problem in taking the debate to the FORUM?
This specific topic - "projections" - is one that I think you are totally wrong about. But, then that's my opinion... I would LOVE to hash it out with you. It doesn't take much, all you have to do is register on the forum, and we can get started.
So?
dmm did bring up a valid point about shipping costs, not that I was really concerned about it, but obviously it struck a nerve with other readers.
Anon, I'm sorry that you find this discussion depressing. I do thank you for fielding the questions you are asked on this blog. It gives me a chance to dialog with someone about things in Quixtar I find illogical---Something I can't do with my inlaws as that is a sign of negativity on my part. Please understand that there are things that many of us outsiders find illogical, problems that could be solved without the help of Quixtar. Bruse brought up an excellent point of cutting out some of the unneeded frivolities--we live in such a spoiled society, wanting every need met.
If this kind of discussion makes you shake your head in unbelief, you can probably understand how some of us feel when we see our family members or friends continue to lose money by practicing illogical "business" activities.
Was there a reason that you asked dmm if he had kids?
Anon,
I don't see why you are so disdainful of people cutting coupons or sending kid(do)s to full time school/daycare, wives working full time or people spending on entertainment?
How is any of that any less honorable than being an Amway distributor?
-balaji
At the risk of sounding ignorant, thick-headed or sarcastic, because I mean these next few questions with the utmost sincererity, I gotta ask this. How do you ask for the coupon price? Do you say that there was a coupon on last Sunday's paper for .50 off this item and/or .75 off that item? I'm curious because with UPC scanners, cashiers usually have to run a code from the coupon to get the discounted price, nut just someone's word. Are you refering to manufacturer's coupons or in-store only coupons? (That would make a big difference.) I'd try it myself, but I'm just a bit leery that I'll get laughed at by the cashier.
Anon:
"Isa,
Almost four years. Why do you want to know?"
Just curiousity, Anon.
I was an IBO from 2003 - 2006. I joined in January 2003 and didn't renew in 2006. So its a pretty even three years.
While the products themselves were, for the most part, of a good quality, the retail prices were very high. Much higher than a lot of other stuff out there. The xs energy drink is an exception, energy drinks run around $2 a can (correct me if I am wrong) so thats about right.
The part of the model that states buy from yourself is a little broken. Does it work on paper? Yes. Does it work in practice? For the most part, no it doesn't.
During my three years in quix, I was told again and again how legit this business was. I was told that the internet is the "bathroom wall of society" and its critics were "non-credible". I learned one great lesson during those three years: If a someone or a business has to prove again and again they are legit and tell you to check the facts on their site, so you will have "credible" sources, they probably are not.
Anon:
"Dmm, so your wife goes to work full-time too? Where are the kiddo's? Or are they now in school full-time?"
Anon, while I won't say I disagree with you about the ideal of having a mom at home taking care of the children, you have NO, and I repeat, NO right to down a man about his family. This reason is one of the first warning bells that started getting me out of the business.
Uplines seem to think they have this right to challenge the manhood of their downlines if they are not doing the work by saying things such as "Don't you love your wife, kids?" I heard it time and again from stage. They claimed to be godly men and when I looked in my Bible, it said nothing about challenging a man or putting him down to encourage him. Its just not there.
Anon, do you think you have the right to tell a man if he's successful or not? Do you?
((My apologies to everyone for gettting off topic, its just I can't stand this part of the business))
Bruce: "But, a little self-discipline and a little habit changing could capture a lot of that back. 500.00 a month wouldn't be unrealistic.
500.00/ month could start a nice savings account - a vacation fund - pay off some bills - give to charity (20 months will get you that magic $10,000 check! ...AND they get their money now, when they need it)"
Anon: "I agree wholeheartedly with you Bruce! However, the reality is, most people do NOT do this. They are either too lazy or just not willing to discipline themselves to do this! I also think that most families could be able to raise their own kids if they were willing to make some changes & sacrifices....but most are not willing." Great in theory...but seldom put to practice. Much like this business....it's a wonderful concept & actually works....IF YOU WORK IT!"
Bruce: I really don't see the changes as that huge, but I do agree with Anon that some people aren't willing to make certain changes. My point was also that people tend to have more money at their disposal then they realize.
A question that comes to my mind is: if these current or prospective IBO's are so undisciplined in their discretionary spending - why would they all of a sudden becomed disciplined in business?
That doesn't quite makes sense to me. Then again, that's just me.
Anon said:
"Also, if you think that the retailers aren't 'scamming' you by marking the stuff waaaaaaay up....just to 'put it on sale', you've got your head stuck in the sand."
Of course they do. Funny thing is, even if you bought some of that stuff at an inflated price, they don't tack on a shipping charge AND you get it immediately.
And then there's your way anon...
Anon wrote: Dmm, so your wife goes to work full-time too? Where are the kiddo's? Or are they now in school full-time?"
Joe says: And for IBOs attending functions and nite owls - where are their kiddos?
Hey Anon,
Are you up for a debate on the FORUM?
Here's the link for registering on the forum.
You can create a new topic after registering, or you can send me a PrivateMessage from the forum, and I will take it from there.
So? What say you?
The theory on why Quixtar shoppers will be more disciplined, Bruce, is they are now shopping online, and don't have the temptation of buying loss leaders or junk food at Wal-Mart. Of course, if they are IBO's, don't they now have the temptation of buying one more product to jump to the next level, regardless of whether or not they need it?
Also, product to product price comparisons still apply, no matter how much junk one purchases. If a person buys a basket of goods at Wal-Mart that is $50, plus $10 worth of junk, and the same original basket of goods cost $60 at Quixtar, the Wal-Mart shopper still wins. They got more junk for the money. Of course, anon will tell you that not buying the junk will most likely over time save you money, and she is right. However, why change to Quixtar when one can shop at Wal-Mart.com?
dmm,
yes. I agree about the balancing act between play & work.
Isa,
Chill out....I'm not 'judging' anyone! As an IBO, there are alot of flat out lies said about me indirectly, on this site. There are alot of myths that are perpetuated on sites like these and, as an IBO, I get alot of "disdain" about what I do & what I believe in. It makes my efforts that much more difficult.
I don't believe in fulltime (like 8-12 hours a day) daycare for kids! Period. I don't think it's necessary or right. And before you go and judge me on that statement, I have personally made HUGE sacrifices so I can raise my own kids. We got rid of vehicles, sold our house, started working this biz part-time, shopped at discount stores like Walmart for my clothes, do my own hair, etc. MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT WILLING TO DO THIS BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO....I hear women say...."Oh, I just couldn't do that...I'd go crazy". Well, it's not about YOU! It's about your KIDS and THEIR welfare. If you're going to stick kids in daycare all day, you don't have any right to have kids! That's how I feel. Deal with it. (Now you probably need to tell ME to chill out...ha! ha!)
IM said: "dmm did bring up a valid point about shipping costs, not that I was really concerned about it, but obviously it struck a nerve with other readers."
Anon: "I'm sure you noticed by now IM, that I already addressed this point, in great detail"
IM: "Anon, I'm sorry that you find this discussion depressing."
Anon: "It's not necessarily the current discussion that's depressing. It's the non-stop 'going in circles' with the critics. It's the continued negative spin on things. No matter what is said or done in this business....the critics will always pick it apart & be negative about it. - That's what depresses me. - Plus, I'm in a bad habit of coming on here out of curiosity and I find I'm wasting alot of valuable time on here - I need to break this habit!"
IM: "If this kind of discussion makes you shake your head in unbelief,"
Anon: "Again, IM, it's not this discussion that is making me shake my head, it's the fact that I am witnessing the corporation AND WWDB do nothing but make huge improvements to this business.....and CK (among others, I'm sure) was picking it apart. It's never good enough for the critics. THAT'S what I was shaking my head about."
Balaji: "I don't see why you are so disdainful of people cutting coupons or sending kid(do)s to full time school/daycare, wives working full time or people spending on entertainment?
How is any of that any less honorable than being an Amway distributor?"
Anon: "As an IBO, I'm being judged by people like the critics, for taking 5-10 hours a week to make some extra money for my family's future by retailing & showing others this opportunity and making an effort to improve our future & bless others as well. I am disdainful of the whole 'coupon' thing because to me, it represents a "broke" mentatlity. It always has. Waaaaay before this business! To ME, it represents a very average thought process. A "just getting by" type of thought process.
I explained my feelings on kids in daycare. By the way, I'm not against women working full-time. Heck, as soon as my kiddo's are in school full-time, I'm going to work this biz full-time (plus some volunteering at school, with animals & with seniors).
I never said cutting coupons was not honorable. - Please don't put words into my mouth!"
ISA: "Anon, do you think you have the right to tell a man if he's successful or not? Do you?"
Anon: "Wow. Where did THAT question come from? I have to chuckle 'cuz I never even got close to telling a man if he's successful or not. Ease up ISA"
Anon, you say you spend $750 per month on Quixtar products? But that doesn't include food, like fresh fruits, veggies, meat and dairy products, correct? So you have to go to the grocery store to get these items in addition to the $750 worth of Quixtar products you buy each month? Wow, that's a lot of "stuff" you must be buying from Quixtar!
Anon, Thanks for taking the time to address the many people who post here. Amny IBOs don't. Again, how has it worked for you to get the coupon price at stores without having the coupon? Do you make up the amount the coupons are for, or do you just remember them from the paper? Do they have a standard deduction in place for the coupon price. I'd really sincerely like to know, cause if it works, I'm trying it.
"Hey Anon,
Are you up for a debate on the FORUM?
Here's the link for registering on the forum.
You can create a new topic after registering, or you can send me a PrivateMessage from the forum, and I will take it from there.
So? What say you?"
Posted by: perceptive - QUIXTAR-AMWAY INFILTRATOR | April 11, 2007 7:45 PM
Anon: "NO! I'm not interested at all. I have "debated" this here already and feel I'm getting nowhere....and I never will. Ever. If I said the products were $1 apiece with free shipping....one of you would still take issue. I want to walk away.....throw my hands up in the air.....and say "you win"....
I just wanted to show you guys that this is a legit biz when done the way it's meant to be done. And, that you CAN make money. Maybe millions....maybe not. I personally, don't know....yet. I feel I'm wasting my time.
I really do have better ways to spend my time.
IM,
I appreciate too, your non-sarcastic way of asking questions. I appreciate your sincerity.
Here's what I've done regarding coupons: First of all, I never "make an amount up" because that would be, in my opinion, unethical. I have, told them I had forgotten the coupon (which I've done) and they give me the price. Also, I've been to stores that advertise the coupon price right there on the shelf. I've told them I think as a customer, I should get the same price. I give it a try in a nice, professional manner. They typically give me the price. I have been turned down one time.
Hope that helps.
Anon
P.S. I do plan to use coupons for some groceries tomorrow....they just happened to come in the mail today & I'm going grocery shopping tomorrow.....I know, shock of all shocks! ;-)
Anon,
If it's any consolation, I bought some groceries at REGULAR retail price (things I needed today!) for my son's birthday meal. Wonders never cease!
How do you get free shipping as a client after $75.00?
I am signed up as a client and it still says it is going to charge me shipping. When I look at the matrix, I still have to spend $750.00 to get free shipping.
How does that work?
dmm: "The theory on why Quixtar shoppers will be more disciplined, Bruce, is they are now shopping online, and don't have the temptation of buying loss leaders or junk food at Wal-Mart. Of course, if they are IBO's, don't they now have the temptation of buying one more product to jump to the next level, regardless of whether or not they need it?
Also, product to product price comparisons still apply, no matter how much junk one purchases. If a person buys a basket of goods at Wal-Mart that is $50, plus $10 worth of junk, and the same original basket of goods cost $60 at Quixtar, the Wal-Mart shopper still wins. They got more junk for the money. Of course, anon will tell you that not buying the junk will most likely over time save you money, and she is right. However, why change to Quixtar when one can shop at Wal-Mart.com?"
Bruce: ??? - I think I understand where you are going with your comment dmm, maybe I didn't word my question correctly?
My point was more that if these people were frittering their money away buying Starbucks, pop and chips at the 7-11, etc. and are that undisciplined, how all of a sudden would they become disciplined in running a business (not just buying Quixtar stuff)?
I would bet that the non-discipline would spill over in handling their business expenses, servicing their clients, etc.
I use the example of someone who uses their home equity to pay off those "high interest rate credit cards", then run up those same credit cards again and within 6-12 months they are right back where they started - with a monthly home equity payment to boot.
Anon,
I don't understand. You keep saying on different threads here on the blog, that you are not interested in a debate, yet you keep coming back (repeatedly) to put up a spirited defense. But, now, you say you are NOT interested in a debate? Are you saying that this is the LAST of your appearance on this blog?
"I just wanted to show you guys that this is a legit biz when done the way it's meant to be done. And, that you CAN make money. Maybe millions....maybe not. I personally, don't know....yet. I feel I'm wasting my time"
When I said "I feel I'm wasting my time" I meant to say "I feel I'm wasting my time HERE." Have an awesome day!!! :-)
Anon
IM,
Good one. You're funny. ;-)
Ed,
It's being "tested" with WWDB. I'm sure it'll be offered to all soon. Not sure though.
Perceptive,
UREKA, I think he's got it!!! Yes, I'm doing my darndest (if that's a word) to make this my last entry. I do try to answer any SINCERE questions directed at me though.
Bruce said: "I would bet that the non-discipline would spill over in handling their business expenses, servicing their clients, etc."
Anon: "First of all, I don't agree that purchasing a bag of chips or a Mountain Dew at the local 7-11 equates to being undisciplined at work or at a business.
Secondly, I do, in all sincerity, believe that the good one on one mentorship of an upline with a strong, growing business (again, look at the fruit on the tree - and look at the roots!) helps in the teaching process of the new IBO or prosumer. They help with the "self-discipline" of finances & time management. We have upline who teach us to spend below our means, tithe what the Bible says to tithe, pay off all debt, and delay gratification. They don't just 'say' it. They tell us HOW to do it. Everyday examples. This is FREE. Plus, I gotta admit, I watch Suze Orman. I love her....for financial advice. ;-)
People pay for "consultants" to come over to organize their very disorganized homes (and sometimes, lives). These consultants proceed to go to Walmart (or other local discount store) and buy a bunch of plastic bins & labels & hangers & garbage cans & filing cabinets, etc. and go and organize the persons house. These people could've done this themselves. But they needed someone to come "teach" them and "show" them how to do it.
Same with budgeting. Lots and lots of people pay (alot of money!) to financial advisors & others who are in the business of helping people budget their money.
My point is, lots of people are undisciplined in many ways. They CAN change their habits if they make the decision to. Most people we sign up in our business..... have not been willing to. That's why they'll stay where they're at financially, or get worse, because they're not willing to change the habits that got them in the tough position.
I really hope that's clear and not even more confusing!"
Anon wrote - Perceptive,
UREKA, I think he's got it!!! Yes, I'm doing my darndest (if that's a word) to make this my last entry. I do try to answer any SINCERE questions directed at me though.
I don't get it Anon.
Are you suggesting that I don't have 'sincere' questions?
So, if, as you say, this is going to be your last entry - but - IF it turns out it is not, then am I to assume that you'd be willing to have a debate on the FORUM?
??
Actually, my response was more towards dmm than anon, but I appreciate the input.
Still, your answer doesn't make sense.
First you say:
"Dmm, add up ALL of your receipts for the month...for everything except perishables. I think you'd be very surprised! We sit in meetings where we have couples go through what they spend per month on coffees, convenience store junk (Mountain Dew, bottle of water, bag of chips, etc.), school lunches, movie treats, etc. In other words, luxury food & drink items. The AVERAGE amount on this is right around $800.00! I've seen as low as $300.00 and as high as $2200 (for a yuppie couple!). We live in Mpls., to give you an idea of the local costs. This $800.00 is on LUXURY FOOD & DRINKS!!!!!! Not mortgage. Not groceries. Not utility bills. Just extra, luxury-type of edibles."
I say:
Bruce: "But, a little self-discipline and a little habit changing could capture a lot of that back. 500.00 a month wouldn't be unrealistic."
Then you say:
Anon: "I agree wholeheartedly with you Bruce! However, the reality is, most people do NOT do this. They are either too lazy or just not willing to discipline themselves to do this! I also think that most families could be able to raise their own kids if they were willing to make some changes & sacrifices....but most are not willing." Great in theory...but seldom put to practice. Much like this business....it's a wonderful concept & actually works....IF YOU WORK IT!"
Now you say:
Anon: "First of all, I don't agree that purchasing a bag of chips or a Mountain Dew at the local 7-11 equates to being undisciplined at work or at a business."
So what are those 800.00/month purchases - wise investments? I don't get in one paragraph you think those bad habits spill over into raising families in which money matters - but they are in total dichotomy in "business".
It really seems like you are contradicting yourself.
I know a lot of consultants like the kind you mention - and they stay hired by the same clients for years versus one visit and done - because people revert to their old ways.
As for the mentoring - it sounds great in theory and all my uplines said the same thing about budgeting, tithe, time management - but in the end it has a very poor track record. You may have unwittingly admitted as such,even with all the training you mention - most of your group stays the same (and so will your business) - and as you say:
"They CAN change their habits if they make the decision to. Most people we sign up in our business..... have not been willing to. That's why they'll stay where they're at financially, or get worse, because they're not willing to change the habits that got them in the tough position."
I don't know if you realize the magnitude of that statement. You should.
I realized the exact same thing after the four years that I was in the business - that I was "herding cats" and found I was betting my financial future on getting thousands of people to change bad habits.
Or to put it Biblically; look at Jesus' ministry and how many people rejected him - and he fulfilled prophecies, performed miracles, and teached, too!
Here's a sincere question. What makes an upline IBO an expert in lifestyle? Organizational consultants and financial consultants who get paid for their work usually have some accreditation and/or schooling, so they can call themselves experts. But the typical IBO becomes a mentor to someone just because they signed up with Quixtar first? That's not to say someone like anon isn't a good lifestyle role model, or isn't a good teacher, but isn't this a little luck of the draw when it comes to choosing a mentor?
Here's another question. I'm an atheist, and don't give a dime to any religious organization, but instead prefer to give money for educational purposes (local elementary school and university alma matter). If I signed up under someone who told me to tithe money to some church, there is no way I'd do it. Would there be any consequences? And, would I be a good downline if I didn't follow my upline's advice?
Personally, I feel the only reason to have a business is to profit. All this other fluff surrounding Quixtar, i.e. personal fulfillment, self-help, better lifestyle, is secondary to the real purpose Quixtar should exist, which of course to profit. Sure you could save money changing your lifestyle, but does that help you profit? No. And if anon helps someone save money by quitting a Starbucks habit, but they end up spending more on Quixtar products than they did at Wal-Mart, is she doing them any favors? And what if the person is never profitable?
Perceptive: "I don't get it Anon.
Are you suggesting that I don't have 'sincere' questions?
So, if, as you say, this is going to be your last entry - but - IF it turns out it is not, then am I to assume that you'd be willing to have a debate on the FORUM?"
Anon: "Give me a break, Perceptive. This is getting old. Let me try one more time to make this clear to you: "Not only am I trying to break a habit of coming to this site....I certainly don't want to add yet another place that I am having back and for discussions about the Quixtar opportunity. I checked out the Forum. As far as I'm concerned, it's just another place to post opinions & experiences. No thanks! Please don't ask me again!" :-)
Bruce wrote: "As for the mentoring - it sounds great in theory and all my uplines said the same thing about budgeting, tithe, time management - but in the end it has a very poor track record. You may have unwittingly admitted as such,even with all the training you mention - most of your group stays the same (and so will your business) - and as you say:
"They CAN change their habits if they make the decision to. Most people we sign up in our business..... have not been willing to. That's why they'll stay where they're at financially, or get worse, because they're not willing to change the habits that got them in the tough position."
Anon: "I re-read the above several times. I don't quite understand where I didn't make myself clear. But for you Bruce, I obviously wasn't clear enough. And for that, I apologize.
Here's what we do: we work with people who want to make some extra money on the side (for whatever reason). We go through some of their purchasing habits. We simply 'shift' some of those habits & purchases. In other words, instead of purchasing two Starbucks in a day, cut back to one & replace the other one with an XS. Instead of that bag of chips, have a protein bar in the car with you...or in your desk drawer. It's healthier AND cheaper. Now, whether they are WILLING or not, is up to them. We cannot, no matter how high of quality of training/mentoring we offer, force them to take us up on it. We can offer training (free or not) but it's up to them to take advantage of it. The few of our downline who have done nothing is not a reflection of us (it took me some time to realize this) but a reflection of their own attitudes & willingness & view on their lives.
Bruce: "Or to put it Biblically; look at Jesus' ministry and how many people rejected him - and he fulfilled prophecies, performed miracles, and teached, too!"
Anon: "Huh? I don't get it. What does that statement have to do with what we are talking about?
Dmm: "That's not to say someone like anon isn't a good lifestyle role model, or isn't a good teacher, but isn't this a little luck of the draw when it comes to choosing a mentor?"
Anon: "You're absolutely right. That approach would be 'luck of the draw'. If a new IBO chooses to mentor with the person who signed him/her up, without knowing their sponsors situation, that would be silly and irresponsible. What I indicated was that you need to "look at the fruit AND THE ROOTS of your uplines' tree" and then decide who to mentor/council with. Your sponsor typically isn't your only 'upline'.
dmm: "If I signed up under someone who told me to tithe money to some church, there is no way I'd do it. Would there be any consequences? And, would I be a good downline if I didn't follow my upline's advice?"
Anon: "All I can say dmm, is that the uplines' willingness & ability to assist their downline should not hinge on any personal preferences. That would be discrimination. However, that's not to say it doesn't happen."
dmm: "Personally, I feel the only reason to have a business is to profit. All this other fluff surrounding Quixtar, i.e. personal fulfillment, self-help, better lifestyle, is secondary to the real purpose Quixtar should exist, which of course is to profit. Sure you could save money changing your lifestyle, but does that help you profit? No. And if anon helps someone save money by quitting a Starbucks habit, but they end up spending more on Quixtar products than they did at Wal-Mart, is she doing them any favors? And what if the person is never profitable?"
Anon: "I agree. If your motive is to 'find God' or 'find yourself' or have better association....probably not a good MOTIVE for starting a biz through Quixtar. I believe profit should be the MAIN motive for any business related endeavor.
I actually believe that changing lifestyle could lead to profit. Absolutely.
You're making some pretty strong assumptions in your last couple of statements/questions, dmm. My GOAL would be to have them SHIFT their buying habits and, at the end of the year, show them a nice little pool of money (a.k.a. savings) that they can spend however they want. Our GOAL is profit for ALL of our new IBO's. And SAVINGS for our customers. I don't ask anyone to take my word for it. I SHOW them on paper. It works, dmm!
ANON: In other words, instead of purchasing two Starbucks in a day, cut back to one & replace the other one with an XS. Instead of that bag of chips, have a protein bar in the car with you...or in your desk drawer. It's healthier AND cheaper. Now, whether they are WILLING or not, is up to them.
CHEAPER? HUH? A protein bar is cheaper than a bag of chips? An XS is cheaper than a Starbucks? A box of 9 protein bars works out to about $2 a bar, as an IBO. A can of XS about the same. A bag of chips is $1.00 from a retail store, or $0.45 from quixtar (pg 229 - new catalog)! And frankly, the protein bar may be 'better for you' but as a snack - it has over twice the calories.
Your price comparisons don't hold water today any more than they did when you first started posting on this site, ANON.
As I pointed out on another thread, it seems we must have more than one poster using the handle 'anon'. We have one who said he/she making $500-600 a month from Q, and one who claimed that her Q-profit was sufficient to bring her home from a full-time job.
Seems unlikely that $500-$600 would replace a full-time income unless it was at minimum wage and one was paying daycare expenses out of it, so it must be 2 separate individuals.
We also have one anon who is making great personal sacrifice, such as shopping at discount stores and doing her own hair, in order to stay home with her children, and another who neither shops sales nor clips coupons.
Now we have one anon who says that "MOST PEOPLE WE SIGN UP IN OUR BUSINESS (emphasis mine)..... have not been willing to. That's why they'll stay where they're at financially, or get worse, because they're not willing to change the habits that got them in the tough position.", and the one who states "THE FEW (again, emphasis mine) of our downline who have done nothing...".
Since one can assume that "most" and "the few" would not be remotely the same number of people, we must have two posters using "anon".
For ease of understanding, it would be really helpful if one of you picked a different screen name.
I would like to add to my previous comments. If an IBO reads the books, listens to the audios, attends the functions, and ACTIVELY prospects new customers, and IBOs (15 or more plans a week) That IBO increases their chances of becoming financailly free through this business greatly. THe money however isn't the only wealth that you can get through this business. My wife, and I have learned ways to better our relationship with ourselves, each outher, and our children, as well as our extended family, friends, and people that we meet daily. Our householod watches 5 hours of TV a week instead of 5 hours+++++ a day. WE spend more time together, and read more books. The business has introduced us to a better way of life, and it has even helped me to Quit smoking (support from family, and friends thuough this business.) We take our children to the functions with us, and have a blast in our free time. It is like haveing a vacation every 3 months or so. Our upline support team encourages us to do our best every day, and drive 6++ hours 1 wat to help us build our business. The knowledge that we have gained to help us financially has been fantastic, and I would have never learned any of it if it weren't for this business. Thanks Ben
How much is a case of XS? A friend of mine is buying it from an IBO for $10 a case. See my blog for more details.
Is that a good business idea? To sell XS at a loss and teach others to do the same?
Disenchanted: "CHEAPER? HUH? A protein bar is cheaper than a bag of chips? An XS is cheaper than a Starbucks? A box of 9 protein bars works out to about $2 a bar, as an IBO. A can of XS about the same. A bag of chips is $1.00 from a retail store, or $0.45 from quixtar (pg 229 - new catalog)! And frankly, the protein bar may be 'better for you' but as a snack - it has over twice the calories."
Anon: "Yes. CHEAPER. A can of XS is approx. $2.18. A Starbucks coffee (mocha, latte, espresso, whatever - cuz most people don't go to Starbucks for a plain black coffee) is $3.70 for a SMALL one!!! I just had one the other day, so I know.
A bag of chips at a convenience store (which is what is specifically in the comparison we do!) is at least $2.00 - $3.00. For a SMALL bag! A protein bar is much healther and LESS expensive. It's also the same or lower in calories. It's approx. 220-240 calories. I dare you to compare ingredients and nutrients. And we're not asking people to never buy a Starbucks or a bag of chips. We are asking them to try replacing ONE a day. That's it!"
CK: "Seems unlikely that $500-$600 would replace a full-time income unless it was at minimum wage and one was paying daycare expenses out of it, so it must be 2 separate individuals."
Anon: "Nope, CK...I'm the one & only! I've gone through, in great detail, how $500-600.00 could replace the AFTER TAX, TAKE HOME PAY of the AVERAGE working woman's job. I made above average, so I've had to make additional sacrifices."
CK: "We also have one anon who is making great personal sacrifice, such as shopping at discount stores and doing her own hair, in order to stay home with her children, and another who neither shops sales nor clips coupons."
Anon: "Hey CK, get it right, would ya pleeeeeeease? Repeating myself to all of you is waaaaaaaay old & played out. I never said I don't take advantage of a sale. I certainly do! I usually can get kids clothing cheaper at webclothes.com (Quixtar partner store) but sometimes they have really good clearance prices on them at the discount stores like Walmart & Target. I certainly take advantage of that! And no, I don't clip coupons. Just 'cuz I've decided my kids were important enough for me to make alot of personal changes and sacrifices, doesn't translate into sitting home & clipping coupons."
CK: "Now we have one anon who says that "MOST PEOPLE WE SIGN UP IN OUR BUSINESS (emphasis mine)..... have not been willing to. That's why they'll stay where they're at financially, or get worse, because they're not willing to change the habits that got them in the tough position.", and the one who states "THE FEW (again, emphasis mine) of our downline who have done nothing...". "
Anon: "Yup. You caught me on that one, CK. I did say MOST at first. Then, when I re-read it later, I thought "well, that is not a fair representation of our business" so I changed it to FEW which better represents reality. Ok?
I have been nothing but forthright, honest & straightforward from day one that I found this site.
Here's what I have noticed: the critics are going round and round and round and round about the same old complaints. They are doing it with some regular IBO's but, for the most part, they go round and round and round with different "new" IBO's about the same old things.
Your arguments don't "hold water". They truly don't! I have discredited your arguments from day one & you "ignore them" (CK, Joecool, dmm, etc.) and simply bring them up again in another post, in the forum or on another site, just to find another IBO to 'argue' with. Sad. Really, really sad."
I believe I understood what you wrote about Anon and I'll stand by my statements. No apology necessary.
Jesus' ministry example is quite an easy parallel to the subject of getting people to change habits, also. No hidden meanings in there. All my points are very straightforward.
Maybe CK is right and there are two Anons?
Anon: "Yes. CHEAPER. A can of XS is approx. $2.18. A Starbucks coffee (mocha, latte, espresso, whatever - cuz most people don't go to Starbucks for a plain black coffee) is $3.70 for a SMALL one!!! I just had one the other day, so I know.
A bag of chips at a convenience store (which is what is specifically in the comparison we do!) is at least $2.00 - $3.00. For a SMALL bag! A protein bar is much healther and LESS expensive. It's also the same or lower in calories. It's approx. 220-240 calories. I dare you to compare ingredients and nutrients. And we're not asking people to never buy a Starbucks or a bag of chips. We are asking them to try replacing ONE a day. That's it!"
Geez, anon, where do you shop? I live in Seattle and a tall mocha latte runs +/-$3.00 with tax, a bag of chips (single serving size, +/-150 cal) is less than $1.00. This is at my work cafeteria, which is always more expensive than the grocery store down the street. A protein bar might be healthier for some people, but they didn't do me any favors, digestion wise. I'll stick to fruit, veggies or nuts as a snack, those are even cheaper than the chips. I don't have any problem with IBO's buying those products, IF they work for them. When we would counsel with upline about our biz, the first thing they would say is that we needed to be 100% personal use and replace lunch/snacks with these items (since they knew we weren't using them much). It didn't matter to them that they made me ill, they thought it was an excuse not to be CORE. My only point is to be cautious of a "one size fits all" method of teaching to consume these products. What might work for one person, doesn't work, or is detrimental to another.
Anon wrote: Here's what I have noticed: the critics are going round and round and round and round about the same old complaints. They are doing it with some regular IBO's but, for the most part, they go round and round and round with different "new" IBO's about the same old things.
Joe says: Because the same old "issues" have never been addressed and taken care of.
Anon: "Nope, CK...I'm the one & only! I've gone through, in great detail, how $500-600.00 could replace the AFTER TAX, TAKE HOME PAY of the AVERAGE working woman's job. I made above average, so I've had to make additional sacrifices."
Don't know your math, but anyone working full time, mininum wage (still $5.15), will make about $10,000/year if they work 40 hours, 52 weeks a year. If they are only making $7,200/year ($600/month), in order for after tax income to be the same, the person would be paying 30% in taxes! Assuming they have a child, they would either get a giant tax refund every year, or have some heck of a trust fund.
Also, don't forget that just because you don't have taxes taken out of Quixtar pay checks that you don't pay them. You usually just have to pay them once a year, instead of having the amount taken out every pay check. I'd imagine with anon's pay cut, her tax burden has also been lowered. But if she was making the same from Quixtar she was making before, she would have to be declaring significant expenses in order for her tax burden to remain equal. Otherwise, once a year (unless she decided to pay quarterly), she'd be hit with a big tax bill.
Last, my point still stands. Anon seems to be advocating profit through lifestyle change. But Quixtar seems to ben an unnecessary part of the equation. What if, instead of a bag of chips and a soda, a person doesn't choose a XS can and Quixtar bar, but an apple and some water? Would that too save money and be healthier?
To me, the first thing about business needs to be profit. If you need some sort of other selling point other than Quixtar products are great and worth the price, i.e. you can change your lifestyle to be healthier, then the products themselves, at least to me, seem secondary, and not worth it. I don't shop at Target because it makes me healthier; I shop there because they have low prices, clean stores, and they are close by. If I wanted to be healtier and change my lifestyle, I'd spend more money at Whole Foods, buying more expensive products that are supposedly healthier. Of course, it's not like I'm unhealthy to begin with, as I type this eating an apple I bought from the local farmer's market!
No, Anon, you haven't adequately explained many things, just waxed rhapsodic about how we ignore what you've already written. We didn't ignore it, we pointed out that it didn't make sense.
For example, how it is possible to replace a full-time income with $500-600/month. You posted an explanation that did not add up without some 'creative' assumptions. Even if you make only $3000/month in your regular job, which is not very much, you can't possibly replace it with $600, even if they're "tax-free" dollars (in which case you aren't really profitting at all, but since you are clearly not an accountant, we won't go there).
You also haven't responded adequately to the criticisms of your faulty price comparisons - ie, compaing per use price of the off-brand Q products purchased in bulk to the convenience store price of the smallest package of a brand-name product is not a fair comparison, and you either know it and are being deliberately deceptive, or you really can't understand the fundamental flaw, in which case you'll have to learn the hard way.
Then you claim that you never said that you don't take advantage of a sale. Which is NOT a rebuttal to what I wrote, which is that you claim you don't 'shop the sales'. What you wrote was "Anon: "Good for you, you smart little shopper, you! I personally, have never ever gone out of my way to chase down a sale. If I hear of one or run across one when out & about then I may take advantage of it. That's about it." Clearly, you don't "shop the sales". Now you say you do.
I'd ask which is the 'real anon', but the truth is that the 'real anon' is mostly clearly represented by reading ALL of the posts, and recognizing that, for those of us who have watched a friend or loved one be devoured by the AmQuix AMO parasites, CONTRADICTION is a WAY OF LIFE, and is so ingrained that the perpetrator is not even aware of it. In fact, the deeply rooted IBO is so convinced of his/her transparency and truthfullness (because s/he really has that intention) that s/he can't even see the contradictions when they are laid out before him/her.
Hmm. I've never paid up to $2 for a small bag of chips at a convenience store. I usually pay 99c for the medium-sized bag with 3 servings.
TD,
Once again, I live in Minnesota. Those are the prices here....right down the street at Dunn Bros. Coffee, Caribou & Starbucks...all three! Bag of chips at a convenience store....more than $2.00.
dmm & CK,
First of all, I never said I "replaced" my income. You put those words into my mouth. Secondly, who ever said my goal was to "profit" from becoming an at-home mom? My goal was to make enough so that I didn't have to go out and get an outside job. That's it. It has brought in enough per month to sustain my stay-at-home status.
And CK, no. I'm NOT an accountant.
Also CK, I have provided very clear price comparisons. I and many others that I know (prospects, by the way....NOT business builders) have checked out the comparisons. I'm always comparing prices when I'm out & about. Just to make sure I'm not 'blowin' smoke' up someones' arse.
One more thing CK, once again.....I NEVER said I shop the sales NOR did I say I CHASE the sales! Go read my comments again, CK. I very clearly stated that I will take advantage of a sale if I encounter one.
CK, you seem to me to be a person who thinks mighty highly of themselves. Do you go around & talk aloud to yourself just to hear your own voice and opinions? I don't know. I've gotten that "sense" often from you....are you a professor by any chance! ;-)
Anon, I'm not the only one who has been following your contradictions. I won't bother going back to point them all out again with direct quotes, since my purpose here is to hopefully help others make an informed decision before they sign on the dotted AmQuix line, and I think your posts speak for themselves.
As does your red herring about my thinking highly of myself. Even if that were true in it's entirety, where's the relevence?
Further, what I have I posted in reference to myself to lend one to believe anything about my self-assessment? Is it simply that I am coherent and articulate, and doggedly pursue my point?
Or is it just that you're tired of having your own comments fail to stand up to close scrutiny, and the best defense is a good offense?
Good job anon! :)
My parents are in the business
and i can say we are a very happy familly ever since they sign into the business. And i know we would always be. I'm 17 years old and i truly believe in the business. That's it.
Oh and I can't wait to sign into it too.
hey anon
can u write me to
caf3molido@hotmail.com
i'll like be in contact with more people like you.
This people are blind. Leave them alone. You shouldn't waste your time on this sites. But i'm glad to find people like yourself.
God bless you all. I pray for all to have a great life. :) Best Wishes For All!!!
CK wrote: "Anon, I'm not the only one who has been following your contradictions. I won't bother going back to point them all out again with direct quotes, since my purpose here is to hopefully help others make an informed decision before they sign on the dotted AmQuix line, and I think your posts speak for themselves."
Anon: "CK, I truly & genuinely do not know what you are talking about. Please provide PROOF. I have made myself very clear."
Thanks all.
Hello again anon!
You said that you have provided very clear price comparisons.
Whereabouts are they, I haven't had a chance to check them out?
I've seen quite a few IBO's try real hard to make it seem as though their products are competitive even though, by and large, they are not once you consider the retail price of the product, IBO price, shipping, and time lag. One thing I've noticed about price comparisons with IBO's is that is never taken into account either, the wait time. It should be.
Because even if your prices were cheaper on an item, I'd rather pay a bit more and have it now.
So I'd like to see your price comparisons.
I've Just attended the 3 day BWW spring leadership program in Anaheim California. The first night was ok, a little surprised with how the audience expressed their excitement with the program. Running towards the stage to make high five with the speaker whenever a new speaker goes on stage, shouting...i mean a lot of shouting; they're all in their business suits and shouting whenever a speaker makes a "cool" statement is a bit annoying for me: fired up! fired up!
the second day, man! I wanted to find the nearest exit and get the hell out of there! I mean why does it have to be 5 freakin hours long! a few hours break then another 5 hours! a total of 10 long hours listening to crap! there's no food, you'll have to bring your own and only water is available.
I traveled from east to west and paid $100 for this shit? I mean think about it, their making lots of money and they can't even sponsor a small cookie for each?
This is brainwashing! and a Cult like oranization!
"Do not question the business and just put your faith in it..."
what the???
"a good student do not question the teacher..."
!@#$%^&
I understand the buying your own product shit concept but would you invest on a product that you have just learned yesterday? Are you willing to resell those products immediately without even studying its history and shit? It's like, "nutrilite is the best, buy it", "xs is the best, buy it", "nutrition/meal replacement bars are the best, buy it....what bullshit!
Anon, willy is right, you're brainwashed.
Gabo,
Just a few questions for you.
How long has your family been in Quixtar?
How has your family life changed since your parents became IBOs? Please be specific.
How much money have you parents made while in the business.
I'm not trying to "steal your dream" or trap you by answering these question, I'm just curious.
BTW, at 17, you are probably looking into what vocation you will choose to go into. What plans do you have for a vocation or career?
Gabo,
I have a couple of questions for you.
1) How long have your parents been involved in Quixtar?
2) Did they join in order to make some money? If so, how much are they making?
3) How has life changed for the better since your parents have joined Quixtar? What was life like in your family before Quixtar?
I look forward to your response. It sounds like you enjoy dialoging with people. I'm sure you'd agree that communication is so important. Thanks!
I know it looks like I double posted, but it was taking so long for my comment to be displayed, I thought it had been sucked into cyberspace, and I posted again.
Just curious, why such a long wait for comments to get posted?
is this for real Q? plz be real to me, i signed up Q a few weeks ago, id like to see how the produce works.
anon and gabo know exactly what they are talking about. All the other people in this blog are immature because they werent willing to put in the work to make a little extra money. They are mad at themselves. If 98 percent of people are unable to retire in financial dignity why would you take financial advice from 98 percent of this country. Its the two percent that matters. Everyone thought ray crock was crazy too.
Hi. Please excuse my writing but english its my second language so I will try to make me understand.
I'm seen here a lot of confusion about the business of Quixtar and a lot of questions. If someone reeeeallly was in Quixtar they have to know this... First... they give you a MEGA MALL in the internet that you can impact and have in over 90 countries free of charge. Anyone here have money to do this. How this will cost to do it with all that involve a business. I mean products, employers, shippings, permits, everything. So this give you the opportunity to generated money with your business and have clients like other business. Second... you need people and why? It's a business and without people doesnt work or tell me if Walmart in one day dont have a client what happened? They really have to pay bills, employers, etc. but the IBO's dont have to do this so its a great thing.
Third... exclusive products... some people say that its too expensive so that tells me that didnt check and compare them. Let me give u some examples so you can see and understand ... in the case of the beauty like it is Artistry you have to compare it with that Quality and is in the 5 most prestige brands like Clinique, Lancome, Staee for Lauder and its #1 in sales in the internet retailer and its the lowest comparing the others and the ingredients made of that its organic and dont have any quimics, etc. And its garanteed 100% clients satisfaction for 180 days. In the first day you use it will see the efect and the difference.
In home products you cant tell me that its more expensive because if you compare the quality and how long last you will see the savings.. for example like the Dish Drops that is the dishwashing liquid... its long more than 16 bottles of the others and its cost a lot less than the 16 bottles. Like this aaaallll the products if you educate and find out your business you will know this.
Someone says about the kids that when we are in the meetings or the seminars or whatever in Quixtar... where its the kids... of course its with someone else that day but you know what.... All the other days that you people are working for others we the really IBO's who got this opportunity serieusly to get out of that boss or to have a better life or have more time with the familyare with the family. Monday, Tuesday, Wednsday, Thursday, Friday... all the days...
I have 5 kids and that is what I was looking for... time for my family... money for the things that I have to pay and all the dreams that we are suppose to follow... the american dream...
The american dream is not to be 40 or more hours working for others and telling me at what time I have to wake up, or to launch, or to go to the bathroom, etc. And if I give my 100% my check was the same every week no matter how hard I worked. Here in Quixtar its soooo different. If I work more I won more. In what work you can won 500 more, 1000 or 3000 or 8,000 more extra of the check and helping others and just giving a couple of hours a day to your business.
Fourth... all the stores and Quixtar pay you for the promotion you already do almost every day. If a friend ask you where you buy something you tell him the store and he goes and buy things... the store never going to call you and thanks you for the promotion of your friend and dont going to send you money for the promotion you did because it was you who made the promotion and make them won money but they dont know and they dont reward you for that... in Quixtar its different you won for that... All the stores know who promote and send you the money of the promotion thats what is PV's and BV's.
So you win for promotion, you win for your business regarding the difference in retail and in costumer money and you win your freedom IF YOU LET US TELL YOU HOW.
The seminars, cds, books, etc its how you do this a lot easier. You dont know how to be a Business Owner so you need education and this gave you that. All what you are or where you work for somebody teaches you or you had studied or something. Its the same thing and makes you grow as a person too.
Im been only 9 months and I dont have to work for nobody anymore and I can be with my family all the time. I can go without hurry to the schools or if they got sick no problem with any boss. I use my time how I want to and make the money that I want to too.
Quixtar its an opportunity that you work step by step... a plan B in the first for an extra money but if you really do what your group tells you it can be the Plan A for the rest of your life. You can have the real american dream.
So find out really about Quixtar, the products, the benefits and all... not because some didnt do the work or have enough education about it doesnt mean that others can do it and have a great life like me and a lot of others....
You're right, diamond!
Because after all, a mature person posts on a blog with no substantial refutation, but simply denigrates those who disagree with his/her perspectives, then spouts inaccurate factoids that he/she heard from his/her upline but hasn't bothered to verify, and then makes sweeping (and again, inaccurate) generalizations about those with differeing opinions.
If this is the definition of maturity, then I guess you are it's posterchild.
How much are you profiting, Diamond?
Diamond, I can't believe the urban legend that 98% of all people are broke by retirement is still making the rounds. This should have been debunked years ago. http://www.amquix.info/amway_retirement_legend.html
The reality is, in 1935, over 70 years ago, the statement was true. But between pensions, retirement accounts, and Social Security, the statement today is 100% false. Kind of makes you wonder what other AmQuix urban legends and statements are complete BS.
Hey "diamond"
What level are you at? If you are not really a diamond, then you have no clue either.
If you are a diamond, you're making the bulk of your income from the motivation business.
And if you want to go around dropping big names to validate your "business", you could at least spoll them right.
Ray Kroc.
The only crock around here is your claims of success.
I bet diamond is smack dab in the middle of that 98%.
Whoa, diamond! You've got a lot of generalizations in your post. You may want to think through what you're saying before launching into a full blown attack.
I post here. I'm not sure how you've come to the opinion that I am immature. Please give me some examples of my immaturity.
Also, I'm not making the connection between maturity and working to make a little money. I know of a lot of different endeavors that people can do to make quite a bit of extra money, and many of them don't include having maturity at all.
I am not mad at myself.
Where did you get the 98% figure?
Without the use of emotion-filled language, can you please define "financial dignity."
Why would I take finacial advice from 98% of the country? That's absurd. I take financial advice from someone who understands finances and has shown me how a particular profit can be made in a reasonable amount of time with a reasonable amount of effort that doesn't take away from my current occupation I love.
I'd love to dialog with you. You seem to have a lot to say. Why not clarify yourself as a professional?
Just curious. I mailed two posts, three days apart, and they came up on the site at the same time. Why is it taking so long for things to get posted? I'm not complaining...much :-) .... just curious!
Will this message get posted?
My favorite part of quixtar (how dare I say the name) was the back order items. Not getting products until after I "had" to order more was great... anon I too am from the mpls-st. paul area and found your $2-3 bag of chips to be absurd even before I saw that you are from the same area. I'll stick with rara and get the 99 cent medium bag. Oh and another thing from earlier when comparing energy drinks. Energy drinks from a convenience store may run the same as xs, but you'll get more for the money.
You obviously are in a competing business or really uniformed. Orrin and all those other so called leaders were terminated not resigned. They resigned from the board because quixtar cant terminate them they don't own the board however the board did vote to oust them . Maybe you should consider the fact that this is a bunch of failed IBO's who choose not to do the work. This site is so loaded with bull@#%R$^%
Hat off to Orrin and the Team Leadership for moving mountians. After over 4 years of negotiations with Quixtar to improve their policies, Quixtar has decided not to lower their prices and on Sep 1st will revert to using the AMWAY name. Quixtar does offer quality products but at a premium and they can not be retained as Quixtar says IBO's should. Would you join AMWAY? I would not and just a note AMWAY was booted out of India and the UK.
The TEAM is leading the way, facing the Giants. The TEAM is not about products but is about Leadership Development and making a difference.
Orrin, Chris, Tim, Randy, Billy, Fred and all the others are genuine leaders and the TEAM is going to a million people as the TEAM and not Quixtar.
Remember is was Quixtar's choice not to lower their prices and become more competitive, it was their choice to be indifferent and their choice not to step up to the place to become a giant in the ecommerce industry.
I am an IBo and yes the products are expensive. what is said is that our products are mediocre compared to other products forexampe out antiage against the olay regenerist. Sorry to say but we lost.
Not only that but many of our cosmetic products have been causing reactions on my customers. Ofcourse they get a refund. but the damage has been done by mediocre products. Who cares if its expensive. A generic company simply cannot compete with a company that has the r&D and is focused on a specific line. To my customers Quixtar is a Jack to all trades(products) and an expert at none. Still in the business and my downlines are getting frustrated that it did not live up to their expectations
As a pervious employee of Quixtar (customer service) who no longer as any ties to the company I can honestly say that most IBO's are taught incorrectly about the business and the proper way to earn income from PVBV.
I have heard many horror stories from IBO's on what uplines have taught them; much of it is unethical and morally wrong. New IBO's are pressured to buy and use all the material that was developed by their Line organization and not to read or use any of the material developed by The Company.
Quixtars biggiest mistake in not developing a better training program for IBO's and making sure that all lines adhere to specific training.
Quixtar is a home based business and with any business you must invest not only money which Quixtars in very reasonable, and energy.
You can make money and many have proven this with being unethical.
Hello V
Sorry to hear about your problems with products but people can get a reaction with any product from any company.
Since you say that the products are mediocre I would question why you are in the business.
I totally agree!!! There is absolutely nothing to hide, as far as I am concerned. If you deal with the question/issue/concern/criticism right up front & direct, your results are 100% better than if you duck & dodge.
We just signed up a new couple today. He wanted to see what we made right now, per month. I walked him through what we made, broken down by our 'cashback' from personal purchases, our retail profit, plus our monthly bonus from all the PV/BV tallied up.
We also had a lengthy discussion about the reputation of Amway/Quixtar. We simply explained where we were & that we were prospected many times (individually & as a couple) for years! We laughed at this! We still sometimes cannot believe we're involved. However, we found out that jobs are not guaranteed either. No matter how loyal & hard working of an employee you are. So, we looked harder at this thing. Found out there are alot of 'urban myths' out there about this biz. Once we looked past that, we decided to go for it. We also agreed, as a couple, that if at any time we felt we were involved in something unethical, that we were out. Period. We told him that some of the stories he'll hear are absolutely true. Some IBO's have abused the new people coming into this biz.
I agree with you Drew. Answer any and all questions until your prospect/customer feels completely comfortable.
Posted by: anon | April 8, 2007 4:07 AM