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February 1, 2007
Jobs are Charity?
By Truth in Miscellaneous
After blogging for close to a year and a half I have seen many comments made by IBOs and those who support Quixtar and the motivational organizations. Some comments make very valid points, some are just downright funny, and some are just plain sad. I would like to draw your attention to perhaps the saddest comment I have seen to date. Brad, who is known to the members of the Quixtar Blog Forums made the following comment while starting a thread over at Insider's Forums.
There are always the few that make great sacrifices in laying a path for those to follow. You can see that in Rich and Jay, in many of the leaders in this business, as well as leaders in every business. I am always quick to point out that jobs aren't all bad, but you must be honest about them: they are positions which you are given, almost like charity, that were put in place by the blood, sweat and tears of that entreprenuer who blazed a trail that many of the people working for the company would never be able to complete, or even attempt!
Now, first I would like to point out that this is not a sad comment because an IBO spelled entrepreneur wrong, that's just funny. The truly sad part of this comment is the mentality that jobs are like charity. Now I know there are jobs out there where it doesn't matter who fills the slot as long as it is a warm body that will work for 8 hours a day. But, there is also something called a career. One who focuses on, and properly manages their career can see very rewarding results. After leaving Quixtar and getting focused back on my own career I have seen some very rewarding results.
Now, I will concede without the entrepreneur there would be no company with jobs for employees, but what is clearly missed here is that without employees the entrepreneur is nothing more then a man with an idea that will never be larger then him/herself. Charity is defined as "generosity and helpfulness especially toward the needy or suffering". The problem with calling a job charity is that the business owner is in fact the one in need and is receiving the most help. I don't know too many business owners who hire people and pay them even though they don't need their help.
Every business that became big needed their employees to accomplish what they did. Without employees Microsoft would still be two guys writing code and trying to sell it. Without employees Michael Dell would still be selling computers out of a room in his house, and without employees you would never know who Donald Trump is. I could go on all day with examples and even point out some businesses that never got on the map until the right CEO (an employee) guided the business to great heights, but I think you get the picture.
So if you are truly honest about jobs, they are a vital part of any business. Truly successful business owners know this, and see their employees as assets and not charity cases. To me it is sad to see an IBO take such a view of people who are the lifeblood to many successful businesses. It also gives me cause to implore those of you who are researching this business to critically examine the things you are told by IBOs, and if you are current IBO to critically examine what you are told by your upline. This comment clearly shows that there are some IBOs who seem to miss, or ignore very important concepts of business.
Comments
Ah Drew, such attention. I'm flattered that your zealous interest in discussing this business has been placed back on me leading to attempts at personal attacks and/or judgements.
What I find very interesting is your narrow focus on this issue, and the latitude you allow yourself elsewhere. If one looks at the majority of jobs, or just take the "average" job in America (similar to your favorite "average IBO stat)... it is not one that is a key player in moving the company forward. Out of a 10 person office, there are perhaps 2 key executives, 1 great team leader, and a whole lot of employees to complete tasks (remember military structure: 20% officers, 80% enlisted... It carries over). Sure the employees accomplish needed tasks, but the need for that position was born out of the effort, trials, and sacrifice of the entrepreneur.
What did you do, Drew, to sacrifice for you "career"? Did you have to move a little distance from where you would like to live? Or perhaps adjust your normal schedule from 9-to-5 to 8-to-6? Sorry, Drew, you owe it to your company's founders, visionaries, and key officers who sacrificed family time, weekends, holidays, money (much more than your $20K), and the ever precious TV and hobbies to develop and nuture the business for which you now serve. Sure your position is necessary to build the company to great heights, and important to the US economy; but stronger men than you cleared the path ahead of you. Make all the excuses you want to cope with the fact that you are not one of them, that's fine with me.
A bright entrepreneur knows that you can not manage a successful business without knowing how to manage your resources. Your employees are your most valuable. If jobs are charity work, why does my company and thousands of others employe recruiters looking for the best and brightest to fill our open positions. If jobs were a charity, why do I get paid a referreal bonus when I refer people with expereince for vacant postitions?
Even in a single sole proprietership with no employees you still have to count on other people. I run my studio by myself, but I still count on the tech support of my ISP, the tech support of my web hosting, the experience of my photo finisher, etc. I would never consider my business with them as charity work. They get my money becuase they earned it by being the best at what they do.
Brad needs to consider that his Quixtar business would not work without employees. Where does he think his products come from? Why are Quixtar products typically rated highest in quality? Does Brad think they were made by trailer trash begging for a job or where they really created by talented individuals who were sought after by Quixtar because they where experts in their fields?
What Brad said is offensive to every single employee working for Quixtar.
Brad, like every other full fleged Amboticon, is completely out of touch with reality.
Brad,
Re-read Quixtar's vast list of rules, regulations, things you must do, things you can't do, things that will get your "independent" business terminated if you do, things you can't say, people you can't talk to, and places you can't advertise, and then explain to me again exactly how it is that your an "entreprenuer."
You say "Entreprenuer." I say "Outside Sales." Welcome to the workforce, you employee.
Who's doing personal attacks? I have taken a comment that you made and have shown how sad it is that you feel jobs are charity when in fact they are a very important part of any business and that many employees put in just as much blood, sweat, and tears to make a business great. If I were you, the one feeling I would not have is that of flattery.
Now you on the other hand want to come here and degrade me for having a job, and imply that I am somehow a weaker man because I did not found the company I work for. It's fine with me, but I don't give you any points for smarts.
Your blind comments alone make me realize that you have no idea the magnitude of the job I do, which has required me to sacrifice family time, weekends, holidays, etc. and I know that my side business has made more money in it's best day then your Quixtar business has in it's best month.
Instead of coming here and admitting that charity was a poor choice of words and then trying to re-clarify your point you instead attack others, doing more harm then good to the very thing you are trying to defend.
In your blind attacks and your unthoughtful comments you don't even realize that you have insulted every single person who has a job, including police officers, firefighters, armed forces, etc.
Not to mention every worker who puts in their time and makes sacrifices for the companies they work for and the jobs they do. Which by the way helps a company grow and creates....that's right....more jobs.
It's called having a career Brad, and I don't know maybe the only job you ever have had requires you to ask "Would you like fries with that?" so you would not have any idea what a career is like, but many people out there who do, have made sacrifices, pay their dues, and handled their fair share of obstacles to be successful.
I'm not trying to make any excuses for anyone. I am simply showing the mentality of an IBO, pointing out how sad it is, and pointing out that an entrepreneur without his/her employees is simply one person with an idea that is going nowhere.
The saddest part is that you don't even understand this very fundamental business concept and you claim to be a businessman. You look down on employees and feel they owe someone something when actual businessmen and women understand that their most valuable resource is their employees, and to treat them like charity cases puts them out of business real fast.
I agree. If Brad says jobs are "charity", that's pretty sad. What happebd to you Brad? You been hanging around insider too much lately? That's pathetic.
Brad does have some valid point, that a company often was started by one individual (or perhaps a small group) who sacrificed a lot in the early days to get things to a stable/growing state. I'm in such a company now. There's a recognition by many founders that at some point they may need to bring in outsiders who have more experience growing a business to a 'next level'. I'm also in such a company now. Bringing in a person like that is certainly not a 'charity' to them - indeed, almost the opposite could be said, that the individual is doing a charitable service to the company (and original founders) by providing such unique/valuable talents.
I think the reason it's easy to think many 'IBO's might think this way (that a job is a charity) is based on the way they think of their 'business'. When someone new joins their 'business', what does that person do? Exactly what the original person did. And what does the next person do? Same thing. The 'business' is just the same thing repeated, without any skills differentiation. There's no certification process to test specific skills you have to pass to become an 'upline' or 'diamond' or anything else (well, not an objective test administered by a third party testing concrete skills/knowledge at any rate) - you just become one with enough people below you. However, you're still doing the same thing, just more of it.
As 'real' businesses grow, you often see more specialization. I ran a small company (which never grew beyond 6 people before closing) but during that time I wore numerous hats - I had to. As I've seen other companies grow beyond that, you eventually get in to having a specific financial person, HR person, operations person, management layers, etc. The original founder isn't being 'charitable' to these people - he/she needs them ostensibly more than they need him/her.
Contrast this to the 'IBO' thinking that their friends and family will be 'beating a path to their door trying to get in to this business!' (sic) in the near future. If that's your view of business, then indeed letting those people in (especially after they originally dismissed the 'business') could indeed be seen as 'charitable'. More likely it would ultimately be a power play to one-up the person and to continually remind them of their status because they didn't 'believe' earlier. Given that I've never seen this happen though (people begging to get in months or years after being shown a plan but dismissing it) I suspect this is mostly just a fantasy many IBOs construct for themselves.
Charity is giving without expecting an ROI. Charitable acts are often done on a first come first serve basis.
A job is granted through a selection process designed to get the best ROI. Jobs are rarely granted on a first come first served basis. The success of the entrepreneur depends on careful selection of the best from the applicants.
Interesting that MLMs do not have an application process similar to jobs. Pay the money and you are in no matter what your qualifications. Keep paying and you stay in.
An employee must provide a service to the entrepreneur. If not, the employee is replaced.
Interesting how you do not point out my many quotes from Rich DeVos on jobs vs entrepreneurs nor do you reference posts I have made in the past explaining exactly what rara points out, jobs are necessary, and many people are not cut out to be entreprenuers. The whole post I wrote on The Truth About Quixtar was a reference to the sacrifice of a tribesman in Ecuador and compare that to the sacrifices of entreprenuers and visionaries in business. Further, I used "ALMOST like charity" and stick by those words. It does not mean "charity," it is ALMOST like it. VERY conveneant how you leave that out in your discussion and others after you have done the same. I state "almost" because in this case there are many, but not most, people in the workforce that bring unique talent and ability that is pivotal to their company/team. But how about you guys really analyze who sacrificed for your position to be there, or for the many positions available in the workforce today?
Your post was not to enlighten about a topic, it was an attempt to degrade by assuming a "mentality of an IBO" based on a forum post relfecting a comparison of sacrifices made by great leaders. You further stretch the intent of the post and misrepresent the words. You assume a "mentality" and you deliberately mislead others by focusing on "like charity" leaving out the important word, "almost." Some post, Drew. Next time I need to know how to lose $20,000 in a part-time business and then "cut my losses" I'll be sure to come running to listen to you. Until then, your opinion and "journalism" is nothing more than stretched reality and high-flying speculation. Ciao.
I was in quixtar for 2 years and it ruined my life. I followed my boyfriend to VA..we gave up everything. He asked me to marry him.. in the end I woke up and realized that this thing just isn't going to work and he chose the business over me. I moved back home with my family. Quixtar is very brain washing and it has taken me a year to partially retrain my brain.
Brad seems to hold up the entrepreneur as some sort of hero, and the employee as some sort of lesser species. And that is said.
The reality is, the entrepreneur is not a hero, only a person with an idea. Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepeneur, and not every entrepeneur is successful. In fact, I attempted to start my own traditional business, and ended up failing, costing my family time and money. To make a long story short, I'm went back to being an employee, and I'm much happier, and much more financially stable.
Entrepreneurs are important, for sure. But they are no greater or lesser than their employees, and in fact, are often the sum of their employees. The entrepreneur is just the high risk taker who has enough working capitol. But often times, it is the employees that make the risk profitable. I know the person who started the business I work for attempted to do my position in the company before I was hired, and there is a very good reason why I was hired, because I am better at what I do than he was. And the end result was last year, we grew over 20%. Of course I was only a small part of the growth, but a good entrepreneur invests in good employees, and good employees are invaluable to making a business successful. It isn't charity that I have a job. It is a business.
Brad's comparison of jobs to "charity" is not exactly right. What is a job? A job is the property of your employer. He can easily take it back from you just as he gives it to you. It does not belong to you.
I am not sure where Brad was going with the "charity" comparison but in the real context of the job not being yours, it is obvious that someone controls your time, your income and therefore, your choices.
That is why a job is not the best way to achieve personal freedom. Do you decide what you do on every day basis? Do you decide when you wake up, when you go to bed? Your personal choices? Who decides how much money you make? You or your employer? Your employer makes most of the money, you make a fraction, it is like saying "thank you" here are you pennies dear employee. Money limits your materialistic freedom. Excess of money brings forth freedom of choice. True, it resembles a bit to charity but it is not. It is not the smart way of living either! So yes, keep your options open and put excuses aside or they will be your ultimate dismissal. If you are serious about business be so to your word and deeds.
In this, i completely agree with Drew. Brad does have a valid point that that if it werent for the entrepreneur, there woudnt be jobs. But being an entrepreneur, im not stupid enough to say that jobs are charity as id prefer to get competent people for the job. OPM, OPT, OPW, OPR
Entrepreneur's are not neccesarily great leaders. An entrepreneur has an idea and the passion or capital to see it successfull. Many times that means hiring competent managers and leaders to manage the resources so the entrepreneur can focus on the product or service that he or she wants to deliver.
Positions are granted and taken away based on performance, not the charitable attitude of the employer.
Once again Brad is absolutely out of touch with reality. I wonder if this notion that Brad presents us with is his own theory, or something his upline has been teaching and we are just hearing about it in a poorly regurgitated tirade?
Well?
Christian Anton has bought into the employee being owned, and that to be free, you must be in business for yourself crap. The reality is only a few select people have enough money not to work, and Quixtar diamonds aren't among them. If they were, why would they be holding rallies, conventions, etc., several times a year? I suggest reading Beyond the Smoke and Mirrors to get an inside look at a diamond's lifestyle. To live the life they live w/out working requires a lot more then they make from Quixtar.
Another fallacy is a business owner not being a slave. Most business owners are slaves to their business. They generally work the hardest, longest hours, even after the business has grown to a considerable size. The reason is they are the ones with the most knowledge, and are still the ones with the most to lose. Finding another job is not that difficult, in comparison.
Last, the key to being an employee is having skills that make you desirable. That way, it won't be too difficult to find appropriate compensation, and over time, build wealth. I know most IBO's are young and the though of a 40/40 plan doesn't appeal to them, but if you save just 10% of everything you make, if you invest wisely, by the time the 40 years is done, you will have enough money to retire on. Or, you could be the 1 in 14,000 Quixtar IBO's that become diamond, and join the Quixtar "rubber chicken" circuit, and try your damnest to keep the number of new recruits to at least equal the ones quitting; otherwise, you will see your business fall apart.
Jobs are almost like charity... I think there's a word missing in that sentence.
"Jobs are almost nothing like charity". There, fixed it.
Jobs are more like an investment by the employer in the employee. The employer is counting on the employee to offset their salary (and benefits, etc) with increased revenue for the company. It's easy to extrapolate the many 'job' scenarioes from there (layoffs, firings, hirings etc).
Actually, what I find saddest about the entire comment (and by extension, the Brad's clarifications) is the implication that the sacrifices made by the entrepreneurs are more important and more noble than those made by regular employees. Or worse, that they should thank them for the opportunity to make their own sacrifices.
It's almost like charity when I choose to buy some Quixtar products from my relatives. I know I can get a better deal somewhere else, but I know it makes them feel good about themselves, and it gives them hope. So, I patronize them, patronize in every sense of the word. Now THAT's charity.
Brad,
This is getting even more sad with each comment you make. Now not only are you continuing to try and degrade me instead of addressing the points made.
Then on top of that you have resorted to outright lying. Re-read the post again Brad and you will see I included all of your comment including the word ALMOST. It is sad that you have to lie and claim that I left it out.
As for this comment you left me:
"Next time I need to know how to lose $20,000 in a part-time business and then "cut my losses" I'll be sure to come running to listen to you. Until then, your opinion and "journalism" is nothing more than stretched reality and high-flying speculation. Ciao."
Let me first say that I will put my best day in my side business up against your best month in Quixtar and I will bet I made more in my best day then you did in your best month, and I started this business well after you joined Quixtar.
Second, in just two years after leaving Quixtar I have more then doubled the income that comes into my household and I keep increasing every month. It is sad that you hold this view that people who left Quixtar are losers who will never make it anywhere. Fact is, that is just not true.
So you can go ahead and continue to lie and personally attack instead of actually address the points like many other pro-Quixtar folks have done. But in the end it only speaks of your character, and it is not speaking good things.
"It's almost like charity when I choose to buy some Quixtar products from my relatives. I know I can get a better deal somewhere else, but I know it makes them feel good about themselves, and it gives them hope. So, I patronize them, patronize in every sense of the word. Now THAT's charity."
You are my new hero.
"Brad's comparison of jobs to "charity" is not exactly right. What is a job? A job is the property of your employer. He can easily take it back from you just as he gives it to you. It does not belong to you."
While the job does belong to the employer in a sense, many times they cannot just take it back so easy. That is why there are wrongful termination lawsuits.
"I am not sure where Brad was going with the "charity" comparison but in the real context of the job not being yours, it is obvious that someone controls your time, your income and therefore, your choices."
Maybe in some cases this is true if a person just accepts what they have. I see it however as an agreement between my employer and myself. They want me to work certain times on certain days, and I want a certain amount of pay and other benefits to do so. I am under no obligation to stay with my employer if the terms are not to my liking. If terms of the employment change and I no longer feel it is worth it, I am free to leave and go work for a company that I can come to terms with. You are only controlled if you allow yourself to be controlled.
"That is why a job is not the best way to achieve personal freedom. Do you decide what you do on every day basis? Do you decide when you wake up, when you go to bed? Your personal choices? Who decides how much money you make? You or your employer? Your employer makes most of the money, you make a fraction, it is like saying "thank you" here are you pennies dear employee."
Even if you have a business you don't get to make those choices all the time. I run a side business and have stayed up late and gotten up early to do things that I knew needed to be done. The point is you are doing it because you want to, and that can be true even with a job. I get a schedule that is to my liking when I take a job. I also do not take the job unless I get the compensation I am asking for. Again, you are only controlled if you allow youself to be.
I also think you would be quite surprised to find out that the compensation you get from Quixtar is very much like the compensation one gets from a job. Based on the amount of goods sold and the amount you actually get, some jobs actually pay better percentage wise.
"Let me first say that I will put my best day in my side business up against your best month in Quixtar and I will bet I made more in my best day then you did in your best month, and I started this business well after you joined Quixtar."
I can put my best DAY up against Brad's best YEAR.
I don't believe that Brad shows a profit at the end of the year, so it's not very hard.
Just a thought...
I wonder who fills the orders at Quixtar?? I think someone should take the time to STP to these people who are obviously wasting their time with a job.
"I can put my best DAY up against Brad's best YEAR. I don't believe that Brad shows a profit at the end of the year, so it's not very hard."
Yeah you are most likely right on that. Last I remember Brad was 1000PV after 2+ years (even though he tried to lie and say he was new, JoeCool busted him.) I know my best day's profit would beat a 1000PV's best year profit easy.
Kevin, that was too funny! I think an IBO would say something like, "well the world needs ditch diggers too." You do make a very good point.
To clarify drew's message: Brad issued a challenge on the blog and I called him on it. We exchanged some emails and although some disagreements remained, we decided it wasn't worth keeping the challenge going. Or, we agreed to disagree. In the exchange, Brad mentioned his experience in the business.
He later went on the forum and got in on a thread and implied or said he was brand new. I corrected him. He then told me I could not be trusted because I leaked that information. I disagreed saying I corrected his lie.
Too this date, I still have not disclosed Brad's personal information as it was offline and private.
Even though I corrected his mis-statement, I did not disclose any details of what he sent me via email.
Brad,
Where do firefighters, police and doctors fit into that? Service jobs? I'll be sure to let them know....how miserable they should be and grateful for the charity shown them.
And more brilliance regarding the military:
20% officers and 80% enlisted....
The key players are the ones that 'dream stuff up', and not the ones that actually accomplish it?
"...born out of the effort, trials, and sacrifice of the (officers)."
Keep going Brad. You're doing both the military and the private sector a hell of a service!
Fastshutter: "It's almost like charity when I choose to buy some Quixtar products from my relatives. I know I can get a better deal somewhere else, but I know it makes them feel good about themselves, and it gives them hope. So, I patronize them, patronize in every sense of the word. Now THAT's charity."
This is one of the funniest yet truest things I've ever read on this site. Rock on.
On that same note:
There was an MLM being advertised on the radio today...
One of the 'tag' lines was:
"There's no selling soap to your friends and relatives."
It's hard to hear that and drive at the same time.
Brad said:
Sure your position is necessary to build the company to great heights, and important to the US economy; but stronger men than you cleared the path ahead of you. Make all the excuses you want to cope with the fact that you are not one of them, that's fine with me.
So Brad, are you one of them? If not, what's your excuse?
Wow, I didn't realize my Dad's Army career (including two tours in Vietnam), the 13 times we moved to new duty stations which means...
13 times having "Uncle Mayflower" move you into new housing (Mayflower Moving Vans)
13 new schools
13 new sets of friends and pets
etc., etc.
plus all the fun things of being a Military Brat
Plus my own service in the Air Force..
..was "Charity"
Brad, your imagined "sacrifice" will never compare to a lot of people's REAL sacrifice. Maybe one day you'll someday learn about things that are greater than self-gratification.
Your insecurity about being an IBO painfully shows. I understand the want to differentiate oneself as "5 percenter" or whatever, but come on.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/332/7540/521
Hey Drew and the gang,
Thank you for the comforting words, however comforting they may sound but, as Cicero said, "I prefer tongue-tied knowledge to ignorant loquacity".
Check out the link above and no, I will not end up dead for I prefer to learn from my Diamond mentor who is free to live as he pleases thus, I follow in his footsteps.
Who said diamonds are free? Maybe they also "fake it till they make it".
Do the math - average diamond income $149,000 (good) - but sending kids to private schools, expensive clothes, fancy cars, fancy homes to portray a diamond lifestyle. I would not be surprised if many diamonds are actually in hock.
Cristian,
It's a sad thing when you can't just acknowledge what is painfully obvious. You don't need to own your own business to be free. You would have to be absolutely in denial to think that a business owner, or entrepreneur does not experience even more stress then someone with a job.
If you are not a fan of "ignorant loquacity" then I suggest you stop listening to tapes and start using your common sense.
I run my own side business and there are many times that I do not get to do something that I want because business needs to be attended to. You would again be completely blind if you think your Diamond has it any different.
The idea is to get into something you like and therefore it is not work. Both my side business and my career are things that I enjoy doing. I suppose my life would be stressful if I did a job I hated, but if I did that I give up control.
Once again you are only controlled if you allow yourself to be. If you don't like your current situation do something to change it, and Quixtar is not always the answer.
For some reason everytime IBOs like you and Brad have your thinking challenged with rational arguments attacks begin instead of returning with rational debate.
As for me I am free to live as I please as well, so is everyone else who reads this. Now whether they embrace that freedom is another story. I have, and I didn't need Quixtar to do it.
But just for you Cristian I am going to put those numbers together on your compensation and show you that your "business" with Quixtar gets compensated much like a J-O-B.
"Do the math - average diamond income $149,000 (good) - but sending kids to private schools, expensive clothes, fancy cars, fancy homes to portray a diamond lifestyle. I would not be surprised if many diamonds are actually in hock."
Doesn't Larry Winters owe like $3mil to the IRS? So much for debt free I guess.
Wow, Brad took a beating on this one. Quite a faux pas.
Brad = Christian = Insider = idiot
IBOs = dowline employees
This thread is over. Next!
What is so "Entrepreneurial" about following the steps of a so-called "proven system"?
If Brad was maybe bringing a new product to the process or starting up his own MLM I could see where he could be called an "Entrepreneur".
Parroting upline talk with no real result is hardly an Entrepreneur - just a glorified McDonald's Drive-Thru speaker at most.
Drew wrote:
....Truly successful business owners know this, and see their employees as assets and not charity cases.
Drew, while Brad made himself out to be a fool with his posting, you yourself are in error with your above remark.
Employees of a company are not assets of that company. Rather they are properly classified as labor expenses. The definition of an asset is something of value that is owned by someone else, and therefore subject to the direct control of that individual or company as to how the latter sees fit to use that asset.
Back in the days of slavery, the slaves were owned by their masters on the plantations, and hence were considered "assets" to those plantation owners. The slaves had to do what they were told and of course did not receive any wages, hence they were not expenses to their owners, but considered to be the property of those owners.
I realize the point you were trying to make to Brad was that smart employers respect the value of their employees and go out of their way to treat them fairly, both on the pay scale as well as respecting their input to the company, but don't incorrectly confuse this standpoint of the employer with that of being the "owner" of those employees as they are with respect to the other non-human assets (machinery, furniture, equipment etc.) of that company.
Well thanks Tom for the lesson on words, but my article was written to serve the point that you obviously got, not to make sure my words were dictionary correct.
Many times a good employee is referred to as an asset to his/her company. I don't think they mean to imply they are a slave, and being called a "labor expense" actually sounds more slavish to me then asset.
Point is that employees are a very important and valuable part to any business or entrepreneur that started the business. Entrepreneurs without employees would never amount to anything, the successful and smart ones know it.
Actually the word "asset" by its many definitions can be extended to Drew's
point quite well.
Employees can be and shold be treated as "..a desired item[s] of value..."
More importanntly, subordinates and superiors should treat one another as customers. Each should strive to make the other happy.
Brad wrote ---- "20% officers and 80% enlisted.....born out of the effort, trials, and sacrifice of the (officers)."
Wow, Brad! You absolutely outdid yourself this time!
And you are in the military!
I have never served in the military, but I am grateful for every soldier who has laid down his life fighting. Tell me something, Brad - who pays the 'ultimate' sacrifice, the soldiers/'enlisted-men' who lose their lives in combat, or the 'officers' who think up 'strategy'?
And you are the guy who took umbrage at a perfectly reasonable question that Eric Janssen asked!
And here's something else to chew on, Brad. Sure, entrenpreneurs 'sacrifice' stuff on the way to building a great company etc. But they did it in expectation of a certain 'reward', too! Monetary and otherwise. You make it sound like entrepreneurs are some selfless breed. :ROLLING EYES: Furthermore, you make it sound like 'employees' should be grateful to the 'entrepreneur' for providing them a job! You think any entrepeneur would keep an employee that didn't provide him an adequate ROI? If the employee is 'dispensable', i.e. not essential to the business, you can be sure they would be let go in a heartbeat. The entrepreneur is not doing the employee a 'favor', or indulging in a 'charitable' act. The employer expects the employee to perform a service and in return pays them a certain agreed upon sum every month.
I can't believe I am explaining this stuff to you.
Brad, you seriously need to stop listening to those goofy 'training' CDs and reading those goofy 'personal development' books. They are turning you into an idiot. Even an uneducated high-school dropout has the common sense not to make the kind of idiotic comments that you frequently do.
Anyone know Samir Attalah?
All cleaned up now, he apparently was stealing Suits from the downtown Seattle Nordstrom Rack at around the same time that he was trying to convince people to "get rich":
http://www.freefilehosting.org/public/34873/Samir%20Attalah%20-%20Thief.pdf
OK, ok. After reading these posts, Brad has probably thought to himself, "OK! I really didn't mean to say charity! Let me put it this way..." Now's your chance, Brad. Tell us what you really meant to say. I, for one, am constantly putting my foot in my mouth, so I know how you feel. Go ahead and set us straight in what you really meant.
Never in my life have I seen someone say something so stupid, and get so soundly shellacked for said stupidity.
Brad, you MUST be aware by now that what you said was completely stupid. If you want to walk away from this with any semblance of dignity, then what you could do is admit that you made a mistake.
Unless you really do think jobs are charity.
Really, Brad, we've ALL made mistakes. The best thing to do in those situations is to just own up and take responsibility for what you said or did that was wrong. At least you can then gain some credibility and respect for the future.
In an information economy, the most valuable company assets drive themselves home every night. If they are not treated well, they do not return the next morning. (Peter Chang)
Yikes Brad just doesn't get it. What he is doing as an IBO is possibly moving Quixtar corporation forward, if it possible he is getting people to purchase some of the expensive products through him. What he fails to understand is that a company such as Quixtar could not function itself without its secretaries, factory workers, accountants, those same types of people he says don't help move a company forward in any other business.
Fact of the matter is, we need folks that work jobs or the economy would collapse. Thank God it just doesn't have to be us IBO's.
Brice said: Fact of the matter is, we need folks that work jobs or the economy would collapse. Thank God it just doesn't have to be us IBO's.
Joe says: How many IBOs don't have jobs? It's more like the diamonds are saying thanks goodness our IBOs have jobs - so they can keep buying tapes books and function tickets.
"Fact of the matter is, we need folks that work jobs or the economy would collapse. Thank God it just doesn't have to be us IBO's."
Wow, I cannot believe how delusional IBOs have become that they don't even realize how close their "business" resembles a job, especially when it comes to pay.
Since when would a job be charity? You do something to get something.
It's a mutual agreement.
Being charitable is working your butt off to go direct and then your reward is to work at the functions as personal slaves for the diamonds and thinking it's a priviledge.
You people are a trip, bantering back and forth. Everything has its place. Brad is excited about his business and is trying to convey that the opportunity is great and can produce significant increase in financial and personal gain. There is nothing wrong with jobs, they are vital for most businesses to function. What I think is trying to be said is that if you want to make sure that you are not left high and dry at retirement or if your goal is to have more time and money to be a blessing to someone else then the opportunity could offer this. If you find satisfaction in a job stay with it and give your all, but everyone should consider doing something else to secure the future of theirselves and family. People who work jobs will argue but there is no guarantee that you will be able to retire with any financial dignity or even be in the same career for your whole life. The opportunity, when developed properly, yields greater results in less time. That means listening, learning, and sacrificing above all not quitting. I personally think jobs are great, they give immediate funds to help cover living expenses. But are we here to just get by or are we here to impact one another and make a difference. I hope my words didn't offend anyone. We need to be more understanding of one another and accept each other for the choices we make.
Wow! It's funny how I learned in 7th grade to stop caring what others thought about what I say, but it seems as though people these days are so stressed they will argue about anything to defend their position that really doesnt serve any purpose except to WIN the fight.
I am in a job myself and I hate it. Good for you if you like it, then work hard to increase the profit for owners and stockholders, and you might get a good feeling but what purpose are you really serving? To be called a "career" person or a "professional?"
Did anyone look up CHARITY in the dictionary? It says: charity - something given to a person or persons in need! You negative people are trying to defend what word? If your boss took away your JOB, would you be in NEED of a new one? Would you go ask (excuse me apply) for a new one or would you TELL some owner to hire you? Go ahead and NIT-PICK my blog too!
executivedreamer - based on your understanding, becoming an IBO is also an act of charity isn't it?
"Wow! It's funny how I learned in 7th grade to stop caring what others thought about what I say, but it seems as though people these days are so stressed they will argue about anything to defend their position that really doesnt serve any purpose except to WIN the fight."
So what are you doing here arguing to defend a position?
"I am in a job myself and I hate it. Good for you if you like it, then work hard to increase the profit for owners and stockholders, and you might get a good feeling but what purpose are you really serving? To be called a "career" person or a "professional?""
I am the stockholder bright-boy. Sorry that you feel like you have to stay in a job you hate. If you believe you are stuck there you will be. Somehow you guys all think mental attitude has to do with Quixtar, LOL!!
"Did anyone look up CHARITY in the dictionary? It says: charity - something given to a person or persons in need! You negative people are trying to defend what word? If your boss took away your JOB, would you be in NEED of a new one? Would you go ask (excuse me apply) for a new one or would you TELL some owner to hire you? Go ahead and NIT-PICK my blog too!"
Actually I did look it up before I wrote the article and that is why in the article it is defined. I also looked up the one small definition you took out of the seven that were available on dictionary.com Interestingly enough here is the example they gave for that definition you chose to use:
She asked for work, not charity.
Apparently the dictionary does not see work and charity as the same thing either. This must be an IBO thing. Next time you want to play word games try not to be so blatently biased with your selection of definitions.
To answer your question, I would never tell anyone to give me a job, and have never needed to. I would choose the job I wanted to work and the company I wanted to work for. When I have had to look for jobs I usually end up with a couple of companies competing for me and more money.
I know you IBOs like to make jobs sound like nothing but slavery, but I guess if you think that way you didn't do a very good job of picking a field to work in. That would be your fault and not your employer's.
BTW, you left a comment not a blog. This entire site is considered a blog, and it's easy to nit-pick when the comment is so clearly off the mark.
"She asked for work, not charity."
She asked for work in exchange of money not just for free money!
A job is not like charity in the full sense. It is the property of your employer and he gives it to those who say why they are the best at edifying that particular employer even though they lie most of the time. Why? Because they really are after the money and here is where the charity aspect of the job comes in. People go to such lengths, even relying on lies to beg for the job. The employer knows this but he wouldn't necessarily tell it openly.
Drew, I'm sorry to say this but, after having silently followed this blog over the past few days, I have come to the conclusion that apart from the fact that you are incapable of association in your mind, you are a stinky, mischievous individual with a hidden agenda that is all too common to people like you.
"People go to such lengths, even relying on lies to beg for the job. The employer knows this but he wouldn't necessarily tell it openly."
It is sad that this is the world you live in. I have never had to lie in a job interview or beg for a job. It's sad even more that IBOs always tend to paint this picture of jobs as the worst thing to have. Bottom line both you and Brad see jobs as charity and clearly have no idea what the hell either of you are talking about.
It's sad that IBOs like you always seem to have this tendancy of spitting in the face of those you think are beneath you simply because they would rather work a job, make an honest living, and spend time with their family rather then stalk people in a mall or a bookstore begging them to join their business. That's the saddest part of all of this.
"Drew, I'm sorry to say this but, after having silently followed this blog over the past few days, I have come to the conclusion that apart from the fact that you are incapable of association in your mind, you are a stinky, mischievous individual with a hidden agenda that is all too common to people like you."
Like I said the Truth usually pisses people off and when they realize their points have been debunked that is when they resort to attacking me.
The plain and simple fact though my friend is that your opinion carries no weight with me. I could care less what you think of me personally. Because while you are sitting behind your keyboard lashing out at those who disagree with you I remain open for any and all who disagree with me.
You may not like what I have to say and I may not like what you have to say, but I will give you your due word. I invite anyone who feels I am wrong to even call me up and let me know where I am wrong. Interestingly enough though I never hear from people like you who just like to attack me in the comments and then disappear for a while.
They can always seem to tell me how wrong I am, but can never muster enough backbone to actually show me where I am wrong and certainly can never say it to me personally. So as long as you want to stay behind the safety of your keyboard where you never have to account for the bogus things you say your opinion means squat. But when the day comes you can muster up the courage to show me where I am wrong my number is and will always remain 1-775-908-9383 and you are always welcome to show me where I am wrong and have your fair say.
Ok, my short question to you is this: How well do you understand this business opportunity? How come I see people succeeding at it and people who don't? I think it is a matter of personal choice. Above all, why are opinions promoted as facts? This blog used to have a motto that ran like this: "Quixtarblog: Just one man's perceptions" Notice the word "perceptions". I don't believe that perception = fact by necessity. But somehow, this motto is gone for some time now. The word "information" was added to reinforce the doubt by masking perceptions as facts.
With regard to jobs, people have individual views, some of these views are rooted in either opinion or fact.
My main question is this: what is the real agenda of this blog and its cousins?
Quixtar has been a blessing to me and I give thanks everyday for this oppprtunity. Over the last nine years because of this business I have read over 300 books on personal growth,motivation, self help, inspirational, and autobiographies of famous people. I'm not bragging about the number of book's that I've read I'm just saying that if it had'nt been for this business I would never have read all of these books.Now to get to the reason I am writing this is that I think sometimes we all say some things that would be better not said. I'm referring to Brad's comment and the word charity. I agree with all of you who responded charity was a poor choice of word's. Quixtar is not for everyone and jobs are necessary for millions of business'es. I've worked in the medical field for thirty years and I love my job and I've helped a lot of people. It's certainly not charity. What I decided on nine years ago was a plan to diversify my income and to prepare for my retirement. I think everyone should do something to prepare for their future but like I said previously Quixtar is not for everyone and I think we all should respect other peoples opinion's. Here's a salute to all the hard working people out there who keep this great country going. Thanks! JC
I think Drew is the most perfect individual I have met! He is so perfect, in fact, he makes so much money, has NEVER lied in his entire life, has never judged or done stupid things, and he never attacks IBO's personally or judge a group of hard working people...
"I know you IBOs like to make jobs sound like nothing but slavery..."
Wow Drew what was your entire point again? Why dont you sum it up without the libel!
"I am simply showing the mentality of an IBO, pointing out how sad it is, and pointing out that an entrepreneur without his/her employees is simply one person with an idea that is going nowhere."
Tipical novice debater...always bashing other peoples views to try and back up their own stubborn pride on an issue they were butt-hurt about because they quit or failed where others didn't.
Jobs are not charity. It's a task done in exchange for compensation.
Brad was completely off base for implying that a job is charity.
Funny how Brad dropped off the face ofthe earth when this was pointed out to him.
Guys, this is what critbots do. This is typical critbot BS. Brad even pointed it out but nobody seems to get it. You guys don't think jobs are charity? Great, neither does Brad!
Brad never even said 'jobs are Like charity' - he said 'jobs are ALMOST LIKE charity'! Yes Drew you copied his quote, but then everytime you refered to it... you Misquoted him!
Why?
Because Drew hates this company and will do ALMOST anything to discredit it. Even picking BS fights with its proponents. I guess it was a slow news week, nothing interesting to talk about, so to resurrect this dying blog, Drew starts a post totally centered around a distorted misquote. Drew thats pathetic.
When pro-Qx people don't post here, the blog is dead. There's no substance to these topics. Who cares.
I feel empathetic to those people who were hurt badly or feel they were taken advantage of in Qxt. I realize Brad probably did not mean to say that single word, but that it was distorted to the views of those who were hurt in the past. Does anyone IBO's or no's look in the mirror and see a different person than themselves, because that is what life is boiled down to.
If you cannot look in the mirror and be happy with the person looking back, job or no job than change it! ESPECIALLY if you have so much time to misquote a single person just to feel the revenge for being hurt. In my opinion that is unhealthy.
There are several issues here to discuss. First, in response to JC, it is great you had 9 years of reading books, but Quixtar/Amway is a business. How much profit have you made in those nine years, and how much profit did you see in 2006 (it is tax time in the USA)? And how is your retirement portfolio, i.e., how much is Quixtar contributing?
Second, not everyone is cut out to be a business owner. In fact, I am much happier and much more successful as an employee than I ever was trying to run my own business. I found I had flaws I had problems overcoming trying to be the big boss, and do much better with direction. I may never live in the biggest house, or drive the nicest car, but I'm not renting a 1 bedroom apartment with 10 other people either. And besides, none of this really matters when my daughter smiles at me, and as long as I can feed, clothe, protect her, and keep her happy, I'm making enough money.
As for retirement, between my 401k and IRA, plus equity in my house (house values in my area are still rising, and rose over 50% the last 5 years), I'll be fine, even with or w/out Social Security. The 40/40 plan may not sound that attractive to you when you are in your 20's, but I actually look forward to work most days.
Last, why do some succeed at Quixtar where others do not? The truth is the overwhelming majority of IBO's do not succeed in making significant money. Most don't make enough to justify renewing, which is why 50% of all IBO's quit after 1 year, and 67% of IBO's quit every year. The average Quixtar IBO barely makes over $100/month, and even if you average in all those that do nothing, you also must average in all the big pins that do make over $100,000/year. Of course, only about 1 in 14,000 ever reach diamond, and even if your goal is just platinum, only 1 in about 240 make it there. (less than .5%)
Could all this failure be due to just choices? All all those IBO's who signed up and quit lazy? Possible, but probably not correct. There has to be other factors.
That's not to say Quixtar can't work for you, as people do beat the odds every day. Just, it is probably not the best option for you.
Chris, this is what quixtarians do. Blindly defend someone/something
to the death when you are obviously wrong.
Brad said "they are positions which you are given, almost like charity, that were put in place by the blood, sweat and tears of that entreprenuer who blazed a trail that many of the people working for the company would never be able to complete, or even attempt!"
Positions are not "given". Last I checked, most people wanting a position apply for such a position and the employer screens and determines which applicant best suits his/her needs. That is not "almost like charity".
"When pro-Qx people don't post here, the blog is dead."
But the problem is... they DO!
Ok, Drew, my short question to you is this: How well do you understand this business opportunity? How come I see people succeeding at it and people who don't? I think it is a matter of personal choice. Above all, why are opinions promoted as facts? This blog used to have a motto that ran like this: "Quixtarblog: Just one man's perceptions" Notice the word "perceptions". I don't believe that perception = fact by necessity. But somehow, this motto is gone for some time now. The word "information" was added to reinforce the doubt by masking perceptions as facts.
With regard to jobs, people have individual views, some of these views are rooted in either opinion or fact.
My main question is this: what is the real agenda of this blog and its cousins?
Who cares?
Obviously you do, Chris.
BTW, have you spoken with Brad lately? I'm just curious as to how you able to articulate and clarify what Brad meant in his original post.
Randall says not to be left high and dry at retirement. If one follows the AMOs methods of core buying books, tapes and other services, in addition to the purchase of expensive Quixtar products, there will be no money to invest in retirement. Forget the AMO Quixtar method, invest your money in retirement accounts, stocks, real estate, anything else will give you a way better return than Quixtar AMO ideas.
JC,
If you have done all the research you need to satisfy yourself that this is the opportunity for you, then by all means I hope you make millions and find all that you are looking for from this business.
"Wow Drew what was your entire point again? Why dont you sum it up without the libel!"
Why don't you point out where I posted libel and actually show us that you understand what libel means?
"Tipical novice debater...always bashing other peoples views to try and back up their own stubborn pride on an issue they were butt-hurt about because they quit or failed where others didn't."
Do you know novice debater because you are an expert? My number is 1-775-908-9383 and my e-mail is truth@quixtarinsideout.com. Get in touch and you can come show everyone how novice I am on my podcast. Perfect opportunity for an expert like you to put me in my place. So let's see if you actually cash the checks you let your fingers write!
"Brad never even said 'jobs are Like charity' - he said 'jobs are ALMOST LIKE charity'! Yes Drew you copied his quote, but then everytime you refered to it... you Misquoted him!
Why? "
So if I said Quixtar was almost like a scam you would have no problem with that? Something tells me you would still have an issue even though I used the word almost. Fact is my point is that a job is not even almost like a charity. It is not even close and only someone who has no clue about the nature of business would think it was.
"Because Drew hates this company and will do ALMOST anything to discredit it."
That one ignorant statement shows how little you really know about me before you decided to comment.
"When pro-Qx people don't post here, the blog is dead. There's no substance to these topics. Who cares."
What is pathetic is saying something like that while making a comment here. Apparently you care since you commented. If you didn't care why didn't you just move on?
I will tell you though that Quixtar cares very much. It is because of blogs like this one that you see a Web Reputation Task Force, and you see Google Bombing admitted by an high level IBO. It is also why you see the propaganda videos that Quixtar has released. You don't think they would spend all that time on something no one cares about do you? Go ahead and stick your head in the sand but by Quixtar's actions alone apparently quite a few people care.
"My main question is this: what is the real agenda of this blog and its cousins?"
I told you Cristian that you can always have your say. My number is 1-775-908-9383 and my e-mail is truth@quixtarinsideout.com. Let's set it up and you can ask me all the questions you like about this blog and my blog, and you can find out how much understanding I have about this business.
Where's Brad in all this? Its not like he's forgotten about this blog nor has he forgotten about his comments therein.
Interesting to say the least.
Iggy, the silence by Brad says a lot.
Regardless of how you interpret the quote
Brad states, as a successful Corporate Recruiter and a Quixtar IBO, I can tell you from a credible standpoint of view, that you seriously have to be a fool if you think a "J-O-B" will provide you a secure future! Take any facts presented by Quixtar out of the picture and look at other CRDEIBLE information posted by the Social Security Administration. Look at the cold hard facts! The numbers! People are not saving money, more in debt today than ever, and jobs are paying smaller salaries to younger college graduates! You can refute that all you want, but the numbers will show you otherwise! So if we are going to be technical as to what Brad stated, as Jobs being LIKE Charity, the I will go ahead and put it out there that they are Charity! What elese would you call it? Look at the definition of "Charity" - Benevolence or generosity toward others or toward humanity."
I talk to candidates on a daily basis who put their lives into a job, their families livelihood, children's education, their future all rests within a company. Then one day, because of cutbacks, this person has no job. Lost it all! Gave away years of his life toward a company! This is also known as Charity according to the definition!
Lets be honest and real here ladies and gentlemen! Old company executives now looking for 15hr jobs because they cant find one because the company is now paying a young college grads 35k to do what 2 employees used to do! Then these old executives making 15hr now have to depend on the kids with the new 35k job to support them!
Regardless of what your views are, I think it is important and mature here that Quixtar has no connection with the economy today except that it boosts it! It is not Quixtar vs the JOB because Brad is an IBO! Thats bad judgment. Its owning a Business vs working a JOB! Quixtar has nothing to do with even with Brad. Anyone who is intelligent would know that Quixtar is a website - nothing more! It is a web portal, thats it! Yes we need people to work job and there will always be people who work jobs! Simply because they dont have the guts to do something more and to justify their status in life they have to criticize others such as Brad to raise themselves up! See what we need is more people like Brad - to understand the reality of what is happening in the world today! So that one day, maybe you will have someone who will come along and inspire you to do something great with your life!
Until you or anyone for that matter can prove the the facts are wrong by credible sources and what is even visibly obvious in the outside world today, anyone opposed to Quixtar and what it stands for really does not have a understanding of what it stands for. They are simply just a critic! Like any other critic out there - you or any of our critics never have a solution. Never have something else to offer! I dont know what place you are to criticize if you dont have anything else to offer! Other than more criticism. I as I expect the nature of response to my post will be more criticism! Until you are in a credible position, such as the owners of IBM, Microsoft, Barnes and Noble, Shop.com, XS Energy, and level that the owners of these companies and the other thousands we work with, then your views really have now solid ground to stand on compared to the size of these organizations. The owners of these companies obviously know something you don't! I wish you all luck in you charitable contributions to your company!
Maybe I will come across your resume before I retire and have the pleasure of placing you in your next charitable venture! I most certainly look forward to it!
RC Pittman - "you seriously have to be a fool if you think a "J-O-B" will provide you a secure future!"
ROCKET - I think you could apply that to Amway/Quixtar as well.
RC Pittman - "You can refute that all you want, but the numbers will show you otherwise!"
ROCKET - The Amway/Quixtar numbers are also quite revealing. Do you know how many people get "free"?
"Anyone who is intelligent would know that Quixtar is a website - nothing more!"
ROCKET - Perhaps that website could have the motivation on it as well, rather then buying it.
RC Pittman - "anyone opposed to Quixtar and what it stands for really does not have a understanding of what it stands for"
ROCKET - I know what Quixtar SAYS it stands for, but I also KNOW what Quixtar has allowe for 25 years. If you SAY you stand for fairness, then why not STAND UP for fairness? If you say you stand for the IBOS, then why not do that?
And then we get into Barnes & Noble BLAH BLAH BLAH. I'm going to fill you in on a little non-IBO secret. Nobody gives a crap who you claim to be "partnered" with. The owners of those companies know something that YOU don't, which is you are all a bunch of little obedient business "owners" who will buy their stuff through Quixtar.
This is because you are playing a little "I am a business owner" game.
So, do tell, what is your pin level and are you free?
RC Pittman, you mention the Social Security Administration report, but you fail to mention what it states. I am curious as to what they are saying, and I hope you aren't referencing the 1930s SSA report that 98% of people are broke by the age of 65.
As for Quixtar being an option, the numbers tell otherwise. The average IBO is barely making $130 a month, before expenses. Yes there are a number of IBO's doing nothing that bring the average down, but there is also a number of diamonds that bring the averag up. For every diamond doing $100,000/year, there are 64 IBO's doing $0 to meet the average! The other reality is 50% of all IBO's quit before ever renewing once, and 67% quit every year. If Quixtar was the answer, why such the huge turnover rate?
Yes the job market today isn't the same as it was decades ago. People don't work for the same company for years and retire on a nice pension. Many businesses do downsize, or fire older, higher paid people to hire younger people who do the same work for less pay. But that doesn't mean all is doomed. Finding another job, even if you are older, is not impossible, and most people, if they are diligent in their search, will find something else before 6 months.
Af course they may never be as rich as Bill Gates, or even Dick DeVos, but that doesn't mean their life or opinions are any less important, especially to their friends and family.
So, Brad implied that JOBS are 'like' charity to the employee, and RC, in backing Brad up, implies that is actually the employer who is the recipient of charity from the employee.
Which is it? Please limit your response to less than 5 exclamation points. Volume and excitement in no way equate to (or exacerbate) veracity and credibility. Thank you.
RC,
You couldn't be more wrong in your statement. If a job is charity then you sir have no business sense at all. Any person with half an idea in their head can realize that what an employee does for an employer can be considered charity as well.
Your Quixtar business pays you very much the same kind of compensation one recieves when they work a JOB.
Your numbers are skewed to those who wish to sit back and have life taken care of for them. That is the problem in America and those people are no better off owning their own business because of the work it takes.
There are those out there however who see themselves as their own corporation. They have a skill and they sell it to the highest bidder. Just like any business the better they are and the better then can sell themselves, the more money they will make.
Then those that are willing to put in the work and time to increase their financial education move their money into good investments that make good returns and see themselves retire early. They actually retire, they don't quit work to work a business like IBOs do.
An employee having a job from an employer is no different then an IBO having a business from Quixtar, or traditional business owners having a business because of their customers. We all have something because someone out there needs our services.
So in the future you might want to actually understand the circumstances behind your numbers before you start spewing them.
Sadly you are the one who appears to not know what you are talking about and have not proved anything with your comments. The only thing you have proven is that you have absolutely no business sense, joining the club with Brad and the others.
Charity is when friends and family buy quixtar products just because you are an IBO.
Something Drew wrote in his last comment got me thinking, namely his statement that "They (employees) have a skill and they sell it to the highest bidder".
The operative word here is SKILL.
A marketable employee, whether he is a plumber, welder, lawyer, secretery, or CEO, has a SKILL which benefits the company's bottom line, and which it is therefore willing to purchase (in the form of salary, benefits, incentives, etc).
Now, if one is an UNskilled laborer, whose focus is solely on what the company does for him/her and who provides less benefit to the company than that for which he/she is compensated, then one could argue that the job is 'like charity'.
Perhaps the kingpins are able to sell their theory because a disproportionate number of their followers fall in to this category.
Just a thought.
CK,
I understand what you mean by unskilled labor, but I really don't feel charity even almost applies in this sense either.
Charity to me is something that doesn't have to be done. Like I don't have to donate money to the local charity that helps the poor. I don't have to volunteer my time to help out and I don't have to teach free computer classes to help people learn a skill.
In business even unskilled labor is needed by the business owner. The person working the job has less leverage to negotiate a higher salary because just about anyone can do that job. But the work needs to be done and someone needs to do it. Therefore the business doesn't give it out as charity, because they need that position filled.
In the end being a skilled laborer just gives you more leverage when getting higher salary. One who has good skills and knows how to sell themselves to a company and puts work into investing their money can see an early retirement just like any business owner can. The key is you have to work at it to get it.
If you just sit back and sock some money away and don't keep working on your skills you will be one of those who gets left out. To me it has nothing to do with business owner or employee, it has to do with how pro-active you are with your future.
CK wrote-- Now, if one is an UNskilled laborer, whose focus is solely on what the company does for him/her and who provides less benefit to the company than that for which he/she is compensated, then one could argue that the job is 'like charity'.
Hmm.... CK, I disagree. Even an UN-skilled laborer is actually engaging in a simple BUSINESS transaction.
Let's take the case of a 'burger-flipper' at a McDonald's. By most any definition he/she would fall under 'UN'-skilled. Is the employer engaging in 'charity' by hiring that employee? Heck, no. The employee performs the service (flipping burgers) - which by the way is essential to the operation of that McDonald's restaurant - and the employer pays them a certain sum. A straight-forward business transaction. Period.
Now, is that employee relatively 'dispensable'? Sure, it would be easier to find somebody else to fill that position compared to finding a 'software-engineer'. BUT. Does the McDonald's restaurant owner look forward to hiring a new burger-flipper, every week? I'd bet my bottom dollar, no. Even an 'UN'-skilled laborer has certain attributes that the employer looks forward to. Reliability. Punctuality. Predictability. Honesty. I'll bet every McDonald's restaurant owner's dream would be employees who work there for the rest of their life. One of the biggest headaches that businessmen who have to rely on 'UN'-skilled laborers is the constant churn of those employees.
Bottomline.
Entrepreneurs are not some 'selfless' beings who start businesses with intent of 'creating jobs'. IF they NEED employees to bring their 'idea' or 'business' to fruition, they HIRE employees.
Entrepreneurs are not some 'selfless' beings who start businesses with intent of 'creating jobs'. IF they NEED employees to bring their 'idea' or 'business' to fruition, they HIRE employees.
Posted by: perceptive - QUIXTAR-AMWAY INFILTRATOR | February 13, 2007 10:25 PM
Joe: So Brad is completely off base right?
This RC guy can't be for real.
Q has nothing to do with the economy today. You mean to tell me that Q doesn't contribute to GNP or GDP or that the price settings don't affect inflation/deflation.
Uh...yeah it does. Albeit a very small piece.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I wouldn't work with a recruiter that doesn't understand basic economic terminology. Who does he recruit for, the local janitorial union?
man you people have soo much time to keep on arguing back and forth picking on every word the other person says... just get to the point....
jobs are good, people who are successful in what they do and have a career going.... great good job... keep at it.... there are a lot of people who arent happy doing what they are going... well do something about it.... business is a good way to diversify your income, its not for everyone.... whether its quixtar or something else, do what u think is good for you... drew i bet u agree.. getting into business is not a bad thing, u have one dont u?.... some people can not afford spending a lot of money investing in big business idea and thats where quixtar might be a good idea but its not for everyone.... and finally do think about retirement, i know a lot of people who never thing about it.... diversifying your income whether though investment or business helps.... and the books that people in Quixtar read do help people.. they arent about the business but more about thinking outside the box.. inproven people skills and helping people be more accepting or other peoples ideas and also about sucess principle that a lot of sucessful workking people with jobs or businesses apply in daily life,,,,
so instead of being negative about something that someone said god knows when, think about what is being said.
Quixtar is a good business, not for everyone, there are people who have done good for themselves, there are people who failed
jobs are good for the economy, they are good for the companies you work for but they are replacable, do something that puts u in a secure position where if u lose it u have something to fall back on... not everyone has the qualifications where there are a few companies lined up to hire you with a raise, u got lucky and yeah u worked hard, but thank god that u had the chance, mentorship and upbringing in life that put u in that position. and making a career out of something u like doing if not an easy option for everyone....
well thats about it.... be kinda to other people....think outside the box
Joecool wrote: So Brad is completely off base right?
Oh, man, Brad is so off-base, it isn't even funny. To echo Rocket, I have never heard anybody say something so stupid in my entire life.
Now, I am seriously convinced - these AQMOs do warp a person's brain beyond recognition.....
Perceptive and Drew - perhaps I did not place adequate emphasis on the second clause..."an unskilled laborer...who provides less benefit to his employer than that for which he/she is compensated". That employee is a liability (less production than compensation).
A charitable contribution is the amount given above what is received in return, therefore it IS like charity to keep our unproductive employee.
And why would a company do that? Usually because the position is an unskilled one, with little job competition. If the job required skill and paid requisitely, there would be competition, and less "negative equity" (charity)employees.
Which plays into a thoery I have about the AMOs...namely that they keep their following in part by playing the "us against them" theme, with a twist - providing a way for those who are really "them" (working people, living paycheck to paycheck) to believe that they are "us" (the financially free IBO with a "business owner mindset"), simply by continuing to participate in 'the system'. How many times have we heard an IBO say "well, I am not making much (ie: ANY) money, but I am learning to THINK like a business owner"?
How else do I account for the many obviously lower-middle-class IBOs who think they are in league with Donald Trump and Warren Buffet (all while they continue to line the pockets of Bill Britt and Dexter Yeager)?
It's just an AMO class-warfare strategy with a clever twist.
No, not always. But mostly. IMO.
CK,
I know what you are saying, but I just have to disagree. I can't ever see charity label being applied to a job unless that job is not needed by the employer. For example, my sister-in-law hires some people that are friends with her mom to help around the house and pays them for that. She doesn't really need the help but does it to let those folks earn some extra money that they are in need of. In that respect I can see the charity aspect.
In a business however there are very, very rare situations where someone is working a job that is not needed by the company. Unskilled labor may not be the most valuable job to the company but it is work that needs to be done and therefore the company needs the position. Take a corporate office and remove the groundskeepers, janitors, etc and I am willing to bet anything the conditions that follow the removal of those needed employees will most certainly affect the bottom line in a bad way.
Bottom line labor is a cost to a business and like any cost businesses need to manage it properly or they will be out of business. That is why they don't just "hand out" jobs like charity to others. They have a need for someone to do that job they have open and if the business is the one in need of someone to fill a position then the charity label cannot apply in any way, shape, or form. Not even almost!
CK,
I see what you are driving at, but I too have to disagree with you.
Drew took the words right out of my mouth. I don't see any businessman/entrepreneur keeping an employee who is NOT NEEDED. IF the employee is needed, there is NO way you can call it charity.
A simple business transaction. Perform a service. Get paid.
Hi Drew,
Thank you for the invitation but no, thank you! I don't want to debate you, I don't want to waste time with you, I don't want to discuss business matters with you. You obviously are not an individual with a clear state of mind. You are in a clear state of criticism and that alone does not help you see things the way they are.
You have a lot in common with some people here including joecool18. Why joecool18? Not necessarily because of the oratorical style but because of your common mindset. Joecool18 states in his story "Joecool's Story" that he went 4000 PV, had a decent group and was making decent income ($1000 US per month and more). Is that little money? No! Why did he quit? He did so because he was unwilling and stubborn to seek counselling when he needed it and has ever since used his personal experience to justify why the business does not work! You use your view that "buying from yourself is hypocritical" to justify why this business does not work also! Bud, get real, excuses do not make you free; they make you enslaved to them. It's a sin!
Yes, and I see your points, as well, and I agree in theory.
But the reality that I see (and that I saw as the person responsible for hiring in my last position) was that 2 out of 3 of my employees put in less than a full day's work on a regular basis.
Unfortunately, people at that pay scale (about $10/an hour, marginal data entry and interpersonal skills required) were hard to hire. They don't show up on time (or sometimes at all), and often don't perform. That 2/3 were paid for 8 hours even though they only worked 4-6, because I needed them for the 4-6 hours, and they didn't show up at all unless they were overpaid.
I could have let them go, but I couldn't find any that were any better. The profit margin and actual JOB SKILLS required (I don't consider showing up on time a job skill) didn't justify the amount of money I'd have had to pay to get more reliable applicants.
Basically, I see the differential between work performed and salary collected as charity.
I see your point, that apparently it was worth the extra cash for the work they DID perform, and therefore it wasn't charity.
But I'm not so sure.
I third what Drew says. Jobs are not charity if a function is performed which is required by the business.
Brad is wrong, it's an idiotic mindset, and I think its time Brad got cut off from the tapes before somebody kicks his teeth in because he insults their career.
Cristian,
Please, get a grip on yourself my friend. You make your claims and you can't even stand up and back them up when challenged to do so and that is my primary reason for challenging IBOs to talk to me. It's easy to fire away from behind your keyboard, but you have to really believe what you say to be willing to say it to a live voice on the line.
What I find funny is you are coming down on Joe for what you call excuses and in the same post you are making excuses on why you are backing down. By your own logic you are a slave to Quixtar, you only have excuses and nothing more.
So go on and continue to fire away from behind your keyboard where you like to be safe and you don't have to be held accountable for what you say or write, but you have been exposed as someone who can only talk but then wells up with fear when their beliefs they claim to hold so strong are challenged.
As for me I will continue to be open to talk about anything I say or write because unlike you I actually believe in everything I say and write, and don't need to make excuses and run away when someone wants to come and challenge those beliefs.
"Unfortunately, people at that pay scale (about $10/an hour, marginal data entry and interpersonal skills required) were hard to hire. They don't show up on time (or sometimes at all), and often don't perform. That 2/3 were paid for 8 hours even though they only worked 4-6, because I needed them for the 4-6 hours, and they didn't show up at all unless they were overpaid."
Another example of how it can't be charity. Business owners would not put up with such behavior if they didn't need the workers. I can understand where you are coming from in that situation, but I see the difference more as robbery by the employee then charity by the business owner.
Christian,
Please don't post BS about me. I quit because at 4000 PV, I made nothing. Our upline told us we needed to buy extra tapes, function tickets - optional, but needed if we wanted to succeed. My upline wanted me to ask permission to go to the freaking potty.
I finally woke up and quit. You quixtards make it sound like my upline was giving me good advice.
If I didn't make money at the 4000 level, platinum wouldn't have been any better with the extra functions and financial expectations and work + time expected of a platinum.
Frankly, I'm glad I quit and I would guess that I am better off with a job than 98% of all quixtar IBOs.
This business TEACHES (Brainwashes you)that ALL jobs are no good.
and it TEACHES that being in business FOR YOURSELF is the ONLY way to go.
And having ANY business that does NOT give you RESIDUAL income, is NO GOOD.
Leaving the ONLY worthwhile thing to do is build your AMWAY business.
The bad part it has you believing this about YOUR OWN business or job too. THIS IS DANGEROUS. They know the likihood of success in this business. But they will continue to exploit your dislike of you job / business. This could lead to serious emotional / financial problems. I have even seen a suicide in our somewhat small local group, and 3 other relatively healthy people DIE suddenly (job related stress made large by this teaching?). They will convince you that your failure at AMWAY is nothing but your OWN fault. This further increases the anxiety of your dislike of your job.
This "Teaching" is constant and repetetive. It is one of the "Primary Motivating Factors" in recruiting. It is constantly reinforced on tapes, cds and seminars. THIS amounts to BRAINWASHING (and you PAY for your OWN brainwashing). They go so far as to come right out and tell you "you have to change the way you THINK" (as long as you THINK like THEY WANT you to think)
All businesses and jobs have their negative features, and the AMWAY people exploit that detail. In fact they will remind you of YOUR particular dislike of your job / business. They will even use your dislike as an example to new prospects.
How ironic that they exploit that while their esteemed leaders are such pillars of the community and even (past) Presidents of the Chamber of Commerce.
In addition, the biggest kingpins make a LOT of money off busineses OTHER than AMWAY (with lots of employees), that they deliberately do not mention.
This business is the epitome of BullShit, Pyramids and Brainwashing.
And anyone that thinks some public relations, advertising or accreditation is going to change their THINKING, is an idiot.
Glad I'm out of the CULT.
CK WROTE ---- Yes, and I see your points, as well, and I agree in theory.
But the reality that I see (and that I saw as the person responsible for hiring in my last position) was that 2 out of 3 of my employees put in less than a full day's work on a regular basis.
Unfortunately, people at that pay scale (about $10/an hour, marginal data entry and interpersonal skills required) were hard to hire. They don't show up on time (or sometimes at all), and often don't perform. That 2/3 were paid for 8 hours even though they only worked 4-6, because I needed them for the 4-6 hours, and they didn't show up at all unless they were overpaid.
I could have let them go, but I couldn't find any that were any better. The profit margin and actual JOB SKILLS required (I don't consider showing up on time a job skill) didn't justify the amount of money I'd have had to pay to get more reliable applicants.
Basically, I see the differential between work performed and salary collected as charity.
I see where you are going with this. But I think your example is pretty much the exact same example that I gave about the McDonald's 'burger-flipper'.
Let me expand on that a little.
Just like your example, hiring and retaining the 'UN'-skilled laborers in a McD's is hard. Some of them won't show up on time. Some of them might not even show up on a certain day, and so on and so forth. Which is precisely why, businessmen in such businesses (i.e., which rely on 'UN'-skilled labor) usually keep a little 'float' - pad the no. of employees required, keep more employees than actually required, so they wouldn't be short-handed and stall the operation, if someone doesn't show up.
Now. If the employer could actually hire 'reliable' employees, do you think they would keep these employees? No. They would run a 'tight-ship', with precisely the no. of employees required, no more, no less. Now, if they raised the pay, could they raise the 'retention' rate also and run the show with fewer no. of employees? I am sure they could - BUT, would it be cost-effective? I highly doubt it. I think the TOTAL cost incurred by the employer in paying a higher wage and keeping fewer reliable employees is higher than the TOTAL COST incurred in paying a lower average wage and keeping a greater number of 'un'-reliable employees.
I guess, what I am trying to say is this. Even Drew - if I may be so bold - is wrong about his argument that the employee is cheating the employer.
The employees put in the work. IF the employer is satisfied with the work, he keeps the employee. IF the employee is satisfied with the pay, he stays.
It's just the free-markets at work. Capitalism at its finest ;-). The "differential between work performed and salary collected", that you talk about? How do you decide "how much salary" the work performed is "worth"? Is there any objective way to determine that? I posit, it is decided by the "MARKET". An 'equilibrium' is reached where the average wage, the actual work put in, and the no. of employees required reaches a certain 'magic' number.
And all's well with world. All hail capitalism!
Okay, that last paragraph was my warped attempt at humor.
As a employee and employer myself, I agree 100% with Perceptive's statement. Dude... do you have a business?
I'm most certainly have revisited that pay vs. performance issue more than once. Is it cost effective to have less number of higher-paid-more-reliable employee, or higher number of less-paid-less-reliable employee.
In a typical unskilled job market, the latter one prevails. But at no time do I consider it to be 'charity'. At most, it'll be 'necessary evil'.
"I guess, what I am trying to say is this. Even Drew - if I may be so bold - is wrong about his argument that the employee is cheating the employer."
If an employee only works 4-6 hours and is taking 8 hours of pay, I call that robbery. Otherwise I agree about unskilled labor. There are some jobs out there that no matter how good you are or how great you work you will only make a certain amount of pay. Those kinds of jobs have been run through the bean counters and they usually have a set wage, and they just deal with the turnover rate. That is why it is important to learn a skill.
No business is going to pay top dollar for an unskilled job no matter how good you are at it. Learn a skill that is valuable and in demand and also take the time to learn how to sell yourself. You could be the greatest at the skill you have learned, but that won't mean a thing if you are a babbling pile of nonsense in your interview.
The way the Quixtar AMOs give business advice, putting $2 a week into a 401K will still make you a better profit, and way less headache. The AMOs want you to not use your own head, your own money management skills, because they want to control it so that you buy their function tickets, books, CDs, websites and voicemail systems. The AMOs want you to counsel with upline so that upline can tell you whether it's ok to buy that house that you can actually afford because your JOB supports you quite well, or perhaps you have another business venture that makes it possible for you to afford a new home, etc. The AMOs want to get to your money before you do. Once they have your money, you feel stuck and obligated because you dropped so much cash on function tickets, mileage, gas, airfare, CDs, books, expensive products to get back that $8.00 "return on your $200 investment". The kingpins know what they are doing and they don't like people who can think well for themselves or have better consultation elsewhere on how to operate a business/extra income opportunities. Mainly what I found they don't like people who can think for themselves. As an IBO you can think that you are thinking for yourself because you are making the decisions to spend the money and take the actions that the kingpins teach you. But, once you remain locked into the vicious cycle, it starts to seem "normal" to consult with upline on whether to buy a home, car, save for kids' education, have another child, etc. It's utterly ridiculous and I hope that the corporation will wake up and smell the coffee. But they have known about the systems for all these years. It's like a dysfunctional family, no one wants to "rock the boat", so the same pattern of behaviors continue. The ones who speak up and speak out are the ones who are chatised because it makes the ones who don't change things uncomfortable that someone is "rocking the boat".
This forum has reached a new low level.
"This forum has reached a new low level."
That is usually the response by someone who lacks the courage to actually defend what they claim to believe.
Chris,
"This forum has reached a new low level"
There has to be something NEW for it to reach a "new" low doesn't it?
It doesn't sound like anything new here...
This forum has reached a new low level.
Posted by: Cristian Anton | February 17, 2007 1:06 AM
Joe: Yes, by deluded IBOs who put down an honest way of earning a living (JOB) and promoting a concept (tools) which earns money from unsuspecting IBOs who are following what they are advised by upline.
Drew:
"That is usually the response by someone who lacks the courage to actually defend what they claim to believe."
I defend my belief to succeed, have you been defending the belief to fail?
Michael:
Stupidity in itself has nothing new to offer it just offers chapter after chapter of the saga. New adventure or misadventure to amaze one's mind. There should be a book compiled on it.
Joecool18:
"Yes, by deluded IBOs who put down an honest way of earning a living (JOB) and promoting a concept (tools) which earns money from unsuspecting IBOs who are following what they are advised by upline."
Put down a job... put up a job... neither one, I am afraid. A job is an acceptable way of making money but it is not the best. Why? The reasons have been discussed but not sold to each and all. Every individual knows his personal reasons and in view of them why a job is not exactly fulfilling to allow one to achieve a balance between productivity and that of expressing the self genius. It all boils down to reason and common sense which are not so common nowadays, are they?
"promoting a concept (tools) which earns money from unsuspecting IBOs who are following what they are advised by upline."
Tools earn money, yes they do but so does the educational system in the form of schools, colleges and universities. Above all, this is not a tools business; it is about product and service promotion/buying power strategies. Tools are there to assist everyone; no assumption is made that each individual is comfortable and knowledgeable when launching a business. Have you felt truly comfortable and knowledgeable when you wanted to pursue your field of passion or did you educate yourself first? The upline gives advise, but so does your boss at work; who do you want to be your boss? Your boss or yourself? Smile!
"Every individual knows his personal reasons and in view of them why a job is not exactly fulfilling to allow one to achieve a balance between productivity and that of expressing the self genius."
More one-dimensional thinking from IBO's. How does one express the self-genius by selling a can of XS???
For once and for all - IBO's are RESELLERS of pre-made products.
NOTHING MORE - NOTHING LESS.
IBO's have truly sunk this blog to a new low trying to sell a formula of:
Belief times zero results somehow equals tangible success.
Delusion is sure a great intoxicating drug to relieve oneself from real world practicality.
But it won't get you out of your Mom's basement anytime soon.
"I defend my belief to succeed, have you been defending the belief to fail?"
First of all you have not defended anything. You have a belief and when challenged on it your first instinct was to make an excuse and back down rather then stand-up for what you claim to believe in.
What belief to fail? Somehow because I am against motivational organizations sucking every last dime out of their downline I all of the sudden have a belief in failure?
I love it how IBOs have this idea that because someone is no longer in Quixtar they are just a failure and somehow by staying in Quixtar no matter how much money you are NOT making you are a success. Pretty low standards if you ask me.
But since you brought it up let's talk success and failure. Since leaving Quixtar I have more then doubled the income that comes into my household in two years time. Let's put some numbers up and my bet is that I made more profit in one day on my side business then you made in your best month, more then likely even your best year.
There's another challenge for your beliefs, not that I really expect you to rise up to this one. Most likely we will just see more cowaring comments.
Brad said "almost" like a charity. Nice way of putting words in his mouth. Taking it literally as meaning a charity and trying to insult him by showing he spelled a word incorrectly is showing both your intelligence and the fact that you felt you had to defend that you have a job, or "career" as you put it. Seems like there is an underlying issue with you. Sorry that you didn't make it
Great post, Drew.
I work for a very large company, and there is no way the company could function without employees - from the janitor to, as you mentioned, the CEO.
For example, the founder of my company, were he still alive, could probably not do my job. In the same way, I cannot do the job of the folks in the business division. We are all vital to the functioning of the company.
Some IBOs need to get it into their heads that not everyone is meant to be an entrepreneur. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just like not everyone is meant to be a doctor, lawyer, singer (just watch American Idol :-) ), artist, athlete... the list goes on. Variety is the spice of life, and it gives love a helping hand in making the world go round. (I apologize for the cheesiness.)
Posted by: rar | February 1, 2007 3:58 AM