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January 15, 2007
The IBO Echo Chamber
By Drew in A/QMOs
Do you know what the Echo Chamber is? Well besides a hollow chamber used to make echoing sounds, which would be literally what an echo chamber is. But, that is not the echo chamber I am referring to. The echo chamber I am referring to is metaphorically speaking where one person either says or writes an idea and that idea gets repeated by like-minded individuals till eventually it is accepted as truth. Many times becoming more exaggerated each time it is told.
One particular anonymous (well at least for now) Quixtar supporter wrote an article on his site detailing this very phenomenon as it pertains to what he considers myths about the Quixtar business being repeated by critics on the Internet. He writes that "in the world of logic it is a logical fallacy", and that "the Internet provides an almost perfect arena for these phenomena to act in concert". I think however I may have come up with "the perfect" arena for these phenomena to act in concert, and that is the "IBO Echo Chamber".
There are many examples of this taking place among IBOs. Several claims all ranging from the undocumented "Quixtar is the second largest producer of millionares" to the outright crazy "Quixtar's website got so much traffic on it's first day, the servers melted." At first glance one might think these claims are just made by some new IBOs who are just so excited about their business they get their facts mixed up. First of all I don't understand who could even begin to believe site traffic would cause servers to actually melt, but in any case the reality is that many times these rumors are echoed by Platinum IBOs and above. Where do you think the new IBOs get this stuff? Let's take a look at a couple more detailed examples:
Microsoft and Quixtar
One myth that has certainly made it's way around the IBO Echo Chamber a few times is the relationship between Quixtar and Microsoft. The truth is that Microsoft provided a technical platform, development tools, consulting, and direct support for the web-based components of Quixtar. The IBO Echo Chamber however ends up telling some very different stories. Some of those stories include saying that Bill Gates went on the David Letterman show and when asked what was new and exciting he said "Quixtar". Not only that but he apparently then went over to Jay Leno and told him that Quixtar was the wave of the future and that they will control the Internet in the future. Of course just Bill Gates endorsement on national television wasn't enough and then the IBO Echo Chamber told us that Microsoft had invested money into Quixtar, some rumors going as high as $250 million.
Ray Kroc and McDonalds
This one is my favorite because I heard it every single week being repeated again and again by IBOs as high as Emerald while showing the plan to "guests" at our weekly open meeting. The story from the IBO Echo Chamber goes as follows. Ray Kroc while selling milkshake machines ran across the McDonald brothers and their new concept of a speedy service restaurant. He right away saw the potential and offered to buy the operation from the McDonald brothers for $10,000. The McDonald brothers agreed and of course Ray Kroc went on to franchise the restaurant and made a ton of money. This version which was repeated time and time again by several hundred if not thousands of IBOs is lacking in one very important thing….FACTS!
The real story is that Ray Kroc was a milkshake machine salesman and did in fact run into the McDonald brothers who had started this new restaurant with what they called the "Speedee Service System". Ray Kroc did see the potential but did not offer to buy the restaurants from them. Instead he became a partner with the McDonald brothers. The McDonald brothers had actually started franchising their restaurant before Kroc came along, but when they decided to put Kroc in charge of franchising, they really began to take off and formed the McDonald's Corporation. Eventually Kroc became frustrated that the brothers were content to only have a handful of stores and did offer to buy the company, but not for $10,000. The deal was for $2.7 million with a royalty of 1% on gross sales.
So as you can see the Echo Chamber exists virtually everywhere, and contrary to what one anonymous IBO would like you to think IBOs are not immune to the echo chamber and in fact are most likely a classic example of an echo chamber out of control. All of this of course is just another reason why I encourage everyone to never believe what you read or hear until you have done enough research and proved it's accuracy to your own satisfaction.
Your favorites
Now I would like you to tell us some of your favorite stories that you have either heard from the IBO Echo Chamber, or maybe even a story that you used to tell yourself when you were an IBO.
Comments
Here's an echo chamber oldie but goodie:
Diamond speaker: Guys, this thing is exploding, ITS OUT OF CONTROL!!! Everybody out there is just starting to realize that this is the only true vehicle to financial freedom. Don't miss out on this wave folks, because if you don't contact the (pick one-milkman, paperboy, 7-11 clerk, UPS driver) tomorrow on your way to/from work, somebody else will!
98% of Americans are either dead or broke by the time they are 65, according to SSA.
Joecool,
Shoot! You beat me to the FTC myth!
How about this one? (I'm not sure if it shouldn't just be classified as an out and out lie but here goes.)
I you work this thing just part time 10-15 hrs a week, in 2 to 5 years you could be earning a residual income of $250K that is willable to your children and grandchildren.
Sure, and there may be a pig somewhere with wings.
How about the exclusive partnership between Coca-Cola and Amway? Back in the day, directs and above could buy/finance Coke fountain machines (drink dispensers) which were geared for the small office market. The idea was that you'd install those suckers at customer sites, and then would have to service them with CO2 cartridges, drink syrups, cups, and other accessories, all available through the business. I honestly don't know whether the availability of those machines was really exclusive to Amway or not, but in reality, it was a niche market proposition that never really took off, and the program only lasted for a few years. Of course, that last little fact was never mentioned, and the echo chamber point was that all throughout the biz, at opens, rallies, etc., the relationship between Amway and Coca-Cola was touted as unique and exclusive, and that Coca-Cola corporation is the most image-conscious company in the world, and in its entire history had never allowed another company to sell its products directly, and that Amway was the only corporation in the world that Coke would trust to do so.
You know what I can't believe? That someone would actually think saying "the servers melted" was meant literally. But I guess since you seem to take it literally, some IBOs probably did too.
I suspect the "number of millionaires" thing is from pre-internet, pre-80s stock boom/bust days, when it may very well have been true. No way in the world it is now.
I believe the "98% dead or broke" myth is also one that may actually have been true once. If I recall correctly it was quoted in some old classic like "think and grow rich" and those books are still read, though their facts are way out of date.
As opposed to the critics "echo chamber" myths I outlined on my website, which were just made up and never true.
Quixtar is a joint venture of IBM and Microsoft.
When Donald Trump was asked in a TV show "What would you do if you lost all your wealth". He said, "I'll find a good MLM and get back to business". Some people in the crowd boed. Donald said, "See, thats why I'm sitting here, and you are sitting there, just one face in the crowd".
Amway no longer does business in North America! (yet they named the stadium in Orlando Florida after Amway. How come it is not the Quixtar dome then?)
Quixtar is not Amway!
LOL!! Heard them all too, but never used them. Although i have my own version of what rara said, and its "atleast 70k" "within 2-4 years" "up to a potential of 250k". I actually live in the information age where lying is only good to old folks who dont know how to use the net -_- ..
"Sure the system is optional, but so is success".
With regards to your story:
I've always heard that Microsoft helped developed the Quixtar site and that's it. It wasn't until I looked at this site did I hear the lie that Microsoft was "partnered" with Quixtar, and that has come mostly from critics.
We watching the plan I've always heard that Ray Kroc partnered with the McDonold's brothers and then decided to buy the name. I mean anyone can lool at Time 100 (or any other credible source) and see the story.
I've always heard that around 5% of population "believe" they are financially independent and only 1% of that 5% is actually financially independent.
Stop the spin Critics!
ECHOS FROM THE ECHO CHAMBER
IF YOU GET ON SYSTEM, A COUPLE OF TAPES A MONTH, READ A COUPLE OF BOOKS, AND ATTEND SEMINARS AND FUNCTIONS THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN NOT SUCEED IN THIS BUSINESS.
THANK GOD WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN BUILT-IN ECHO CHAMBER AND WHEN IT STARTS ECHOING TO GET OUT, GET OUT, YOU BETTER LISTEN TO IT OR YOU WILL ALSO HAVE AN ECHO IN YOUR WALLET, BECAUSE IT WILL BE EMPTY.
"My upline isn't like that"
You know what I can't believe? That someone would actually think saying "the servers melted" was meant literally. But I guess since you seem to take it literally, some IBOs probably did too.
You know what I can't believe? That you actually think you can say this was not meant literally when you in reality have no idea. If you know where this started and it's context, please do share and don't forget to prove it while you are at it. Oh and BTW, once again just to remind you, your upline is not a valid source like you think.
I suspect the "number of millionaires" thing is from pre-internet, pre-80s stock boom/bust days, when it may very well have been true. No way in the world it is now.
Actually they said Quixtar is the second highest producer of millionares. But since they didn't start until 1999 I guess you are sitting dead in the water yet again. By now you are most likely used to this, but just for fun let's add the fact that they also say Quixtar is second to Microsoft and I don't know how many millionares Microsoft was making in the 70's considering they didn't price their IPO until 1986. Looks like it's back to the drawing board for you on this one.
As opposed to the critics "echo chamber" myths I outlined on my website, which were just made up and never true.
I'm sorry can you point out when it was ever true that servers melted due to traffic?
Here's a good one. Nute the author:
You know how I'm gonna stick it to you guys. I'm gonna go home and make a bunch of calls and show a bunch of plans, and I'm gonna sponsor a guy, who sponsors a guy, who sponsors a couple, thats gonna sponsor your brother or sister!! And then they're gonna sponsor half your family, 5 are gonna go Platinum or above, and you'll get to be the broke negative -in law, that was too skeptical to take a look at this!!
Ever seen Caddyshack - "the world needs ditch diggers too!"
Posted by: Tony at June 29, 2005 07:46 PM
Another great one:
While all you broke losers are going to work I will be sleeping in. I will make sure that I hire you to clean my toliets. And don't worry I will make sure that you get good benefits .
There is no excuse for cowards. You are guys make me want to throw up.
Posted by: Ryan Hicks at July 27, 2005 07:06 PM
It's called "hyperbole" Drew ... look it up. Saying "the servers melted" is so quite obviously over-the-top that it's not meant to be taken literally.
But apparently both you AND Eric took it literally. So yeah, maybe there's IBOs that literal as well.
Imran - Trump apparently did say something about "doing Amway" but, like the "servers melting" it was obviously not meant to be taken seriously. Of course, since that time he has explictly endorsed MLM and promotes ACN, as well as writing a book with Kiyosaki, who explicitly endorses MLM.
Hey insider,
This is off-topic, but I just wanted to let you know that your posts bring laughter to my day! (Not to mention eye rolls and jaw drops.) So keep on doing what you're doing!
Until I saw Insider's response, it never occurred to me that when Drew said 'actually melt', he meant 'actually turn to liquid'. (I think I have been a programmer long enough ;-)).
Asking a few hundred thousand IBOs to log on to a server all at the same time (or lose out on deals) is a perfect (and perhaps legal) way to mount a Distributed Denial of Service attack (DDOS).
"But apparently both you AND Eric took it literally. So yeah, maybe there's IBOs that literal as well."
Yet again putting your foot in your mouth. What I write is not approved or known by Eric before it goes on the blog. So since he has not chimed in we don't know what he took it as.
Also, you still have no proof and only are trying to make excuses for the ridiculous things being said. Pretty much the same thing you were trying to do over the Google bomb conspiracy you were trying to cook up so you could justify "pimping" your site.
But when you show us that you know for sure the context of the statement and you can prove it, please do share otherwise just consider that sensation yet another tail-whippin I have given you and good luck next time.
You mean there are IBOs out there calling people "broke losers". To here Insider tell it, it's just a bunch of critics making that stuff up.
Insider,
So what of the millionares comment? Did Quixtar somehow make millionares back in the 70's?
Drew, yes my apologies to Eric, I mistakenly thought he had written the blog post.
And of course Quixtar's predecessor, Amway, made millionaires in the 70s.
What's getting "made up" is the claim that I ever claimed critics make their own experiences up. I've explicitly acknowledged and condemned that kind of behaviour. But seems whenever you get in a whole (the servers actually melted! :-O) you need to make some ad hominem attack up. Sad.
The best I can recall is "Doing the same thing over and again, and expecting a different result"
"When the dream is big enough the facts don't count"
"Ya gotta have a dream"
"Walk with us on the beaches of the world"
"Your leaders love you"
Insider, you make me laugh, you being the clown you are.
What pin level are you?
"And of course Quixtar's predecessor, Amway, made millionaires in the 70s."
How many? Were they the most? Can you document it?
"What's getting "made up" is the claim that I ever claimed critics make their own experiences up. I've explicitly acknowledged and condemned that kind of behaviour. But seems whenever you get in a whole (the servers actually melted! :-O) you need to make some ad hominem attack up. Sad."
No, what is really sad is that you can never address the points directly and the most you have ever been able to do is dance on the issues. Much like your little conspiracy theory you were trying to cook up over at your site about critics Google bombing. Of course when I exposed you for just making stuff up to justify your pimping of your site suddenly you didn't want to talk about it anymore.
BTW Rocket, we know he is not a Diamond and apparently is not even close. Makes me wonder if he is even a Platinum.
"Drew, yes my apologies to Eric, I mistakenly thought he had written the blog post."
This is pretty funny. Yeah Insider, Eric wrote it and that's why it says "By Drew" after the title. I can see how one could mix that up. LOL!!
"Quixtar will do 100 Billion in sales after five years"
"Wal-Mart will start closing stores in 5 years due to Quixtar"
"Fred (Harteis) loses money putting on these functions - but does them anyway because he loves all of you!"
Good link DMM, so 5 Red flags of product-based pyramid schemes as per that FTC PDF:
Flag # 1: Each person recruited is empowered and given incentives to recruit other participants, who are empowered and motivated to recruit still other participants, etc. – in an endless chain of empowered and motivated recruiters recruiting recruiters – without regard to (de facto) market saturation.
Flag # 2: Advancement in a hierarchy of multiple levels of "distributors" is achieved by recruitment, rather than by appointment.
Flag # 3: "Pay to play" requirements are met by ongoing "incentivized purchases," with participants the primary buyers.
Flag # 4: The MLM company pays commissions and bonuses on more "distributor" levels than are functionally justified; i.e., more than five levels.
Flag # 5: Company payout (in commissions, bonuses, etc.) per sale for the total of all upline participants together equals or exceeds that for the person selling the product – resulting in inadequate incentive to retail and excessive incentive to recruit.
So I misread occasionally. Shoot me.
BB
We had one of those dam machines. My wife and I had already said adios b4 coke offered to buy them back because they were ending the relationship with Amway. Once we couldn't find syrup anymore we sold it on Ebay. Made more money on that sale than we ever did on retailing the darn things.
BB
We had one of those dam machines. My wife and I had already said adios b4 coke offered to buy them back because they were ending the relationship with Amway. Once we couldn't find syrup anymore we sold it on Ebay. Made more money on that sale than we ever did on retailing the darn things.
And "no" insider I won't provide you with the freekin financials for the transaction.
To get the discussion back onto the topic of echo chambers, I thought it might be worth pointing out that right in front of our eyes we have a very classic example of how AmQuix echo chambers start and/or propagate...
If you look at the posting by Xtra Energized, where he states "I've always heard that around 5% of population "believe" they are financially independent and only 1% of that 5% is actually financially independent", that little twist of language - "...only 1% of that 5%..." - reminds me of myriads of instances of how the truth would get bent in AmQuix media (tapes, functions, rallies, etc.).
Taking the current US population to be at 300mil, 1% of 5% of that number would come out to be 150,000. This number is ridiculously low to correctly represent the section of the population which is financially independent, regardless of how strictly you choose to define financial independence.
One perhaps plausible explanation would be that the statistics really called for 1% of the total population, and not for "1% of that 5%", and while we can debate on whether 3mil people in US are really financially independent or not till the cows come home, the point is that once a twist like this gets repeated several times in those media chambers, the echoes become the truth and the "law of the land". Anyone disagreeing is not core, not a true believer, not 100% committed, has not fully bought into the system, and therefore will never go diamond. And, of course, if you are no longer in the business, then you only get one label of a "negative critic".
How about, "Before long, they'll all be knocking on your door, begging you to let them into the business."
How abt this one
"The business is a clean business, only just a few bad apples".
????Trump apparently did say something about "doing Amway" but, like the "servers melting" it was obviously not meant to be taken seriously. Of course, since that time he has explictly endorsed MLM and promotes ACN, as well as writing a book with Kiyosaki, who explicitly endorses MLM.????
Okay insider, I got you on this one, either these guys are getting paid big money to endorse MLM and they don't care about the innocent victims, or these "facts" are simply verified because that's what your upline tells you!?
Anyway, Micheal Jordan endorses nike because he gets money out of it, and not to mention a lifetime supply of shoes. Maybe you will be successful like Micheal Jordan is if you wear nikes simply because Micheal Jordan endorses them.
I am neutral in this matter, as I have not formed my own opinions regarding Amway/Quixtar yet. But, I did want to make a post regarding some of the things said.
First, I have seen success cases for Amway. They do exist. They had to work hard to get where they are, but nonetheless, they are there. And if you think Quixtar is not part of Amway, go to the Alticor website and you will see their listing of subsidiaries.
Second, Trump and Kiyosaki did announce their support for MLM in their book "Why We Want You To Be Rich." Not specifically Quixtar, but the idea of MLM.
Third, the FTC literature does leave some questions regarding the business practices incorporated by MLM companies. The 5 flags listed above do have the potential to create concern as to whether Quixtar is a legitamate company.
I will continue to conduct my research and remain distant until I have enough factual evidence to make an educated decision. As for both sides of this argument, conduct yourselves under the laid out rules of Sun Tzu, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer" and some of you may learn something.
How about anwering some of those so called echo's? I may not have come by a post on this yet, but can you dispute why Barnes and Noble, etc. would associate themselves with Quixtar if it wasn't legit?
"I may not have come by a post on this yet, but can you dispute why Barnes and Noble, etc. would associate themselves with Quixtar if it wasn't legit?"
I don't think I have ever seen a Barnes & Noble commercial where they advertise they are partners with Quixtar. They have allowed their store to be a partner store generating revenue for their business. Also B&N are partners with Quixtar corporation, not the IBO leaders who are doing the tool abuse and pressure. But I don't know for how long, after all B&N had to send a letter to Quixtar telling them to tell IBOs to quit stalking people in their stores.
Why would companies like Bass Pro and Disney want to partner with quixtar? Don't you think their attornies did their homework?
The FTC praised quixtar as the best example of an MLM.
Posted by: Joecool18 | January 16, 2007 5:08 AM