« Not For Sale! | Main | Quixtar - Land of Ill Will »
December 3, 2006
Don't Sign BSMAA
By QBlog in Arbitration
The Myth Perpetuated
When my wife joined Quixtar a few years ago she was told by her sponsor that she must sign the BSMAA in order to become an IBO. She trusted her sponsor so she signed the Arbitration Agreement.
Likewise, while my wife was an IBO she told those she sponsored that they too must sign the BSMAA. Her understanding was that without signing the document, one could not become an IBO.
And as I've studied Quixtar over the years and met numerous active and inactive IBOs, virtually all of them believed that Quixtar required IBOs to sign the BSMAA.
And if you read the BSMAA (pdf) from Quixtar's website it seems to indicate that IBOs need to sign the agreement if they want to buy support materials.
THIS AGREEMENT SHOULD BE SIGNED BY EACH IBO WHO CHOOSES TO PURCHASE INDEPENDENTLY PRODUCED BUSINESS SUPPORT MATERIALS FROM, OR SELL SUCH MATERIALS TO, ANOTHER IBO.
And to further perpetuate the understanding among IBOs of all types (current, former and future) that the BSMAA is required, Quixtar is telling callers to its customer support that it's "part of the plan."
Myth Busters
However, thanks to an Amway Distributor living in Europe I now have the proof that unequivocally dispels the myth that has perpetuated for so long among so many IBOs — signing the BSMAA is NOT required.
That's right. Quixtar does not require anyone to sign the BSMAA for any reason. I know this because I have a copy of the letter Quixtar faxed to the European Amway Distributor. The letter is from Quixtar's Rules Administration department and clearly states that signing the BSMAA "is optional."
This letter is in response to yours dated August 23, 2006 regarding the Business Support Materials Arbitration Agreement (BSMAA).
Since the purchase of business support materials (BSM) is optional, signing the BSMAA is also optional. A Quixtar Independent Business Owner is not required to sign this form. However, should they choose to purchase or sell BSM, Quixtar, as well as the Independent Business Owners Association International (IBOAI) encourages them to complete the Business Support Materials Arbitration Agreement. In fact, some IBO organizations may require the BSMAA be signed before the sale of a BSM occurs.
You indicated in your letter, "If one wishes to register online, the box agree to the BSMAA must be ticked before registration can proceed." This statement is incorrect. The option to agree to the BSMAA is available, but the registration process can continue without ticking the box. Furthermore, you mention in your letter an entry on a website www.webraw.corn/quixtar about a call to Quixtar's Customer Support department regarding the BSMAA. The information provided by the operator in that phone call was inaccurate and is being corrected.
I hope I have answered your questions, and made it clear that while signing the BSMAA is strongly encouraged, it is not required. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us.
Sincerely,
Karen O'Neill, Supervisor
Rules Administration
Business Conduct & Rules
Questions
So, we've cleared up the confusion about the BSMAA right? Good. You do not have to sign the BSMAA. Got it.
But why did my wife's sponsor tell her that she must sign it? Why did her upline repeat that myth? Why do so many IBOs I meet believe that it's required? Why did Quixtar customer service tell me it's part of the plan? If I called up today, would I get the same answer? Why are people so willing to sign something without clearly understanding its legal implications or how it's connected (or not connected) to the business?
I don't know. I do know that I've never signed it and I believe that you shouldn't either.
Comments
Insider, you'll make a marvelous Quixtar critic some day.
THIS line is probably the reason she was told you "must" sign it. If she wanted to buy ANY materials, including a simple introdutory pack or tape, she needed to sign it or they could / would refuse to sell her anything:
"...In fact, some IBO organizations may require the BSMAA be signed before the sale of a BSM occurs."
I was presented the BSMAA AFTER I was already signed up and told, I MUST sign it; it never occurred to me WHO wanted me to sign it, but it looked like an Amway form, looked like it protected Amway, and I WAS buying tools, and plenty of them.
All I knew was there was SOME internal litigation, at the higher levels about tool sales. I thought this would never affect me, since I expected MOST OF THE WEALTH WAS DERIVED FROM PRODUCT SALES. Why would I worry about some litigation among the tool makers?
In fact, I thought at the time, arbitration was a cost effective way to resolve ANY litigation. But HERE, it was BINDING arbitration. THAT concerned me. Arbitration that is BINDING is not arbitration at all, it is a monkey trial.
Anyhow, I was looking to make $100k per year, RESIDUAL, from the network, and product sales. I wanted to be able to retire early and not have to put in all the time, after it was built. I had no interest in being a "tool supplier / manufacturer".
How much has changed.
If you are NEW at this, "You don't know what you don't know"
Now, of course, it is clear that the tools are one of the BRAINWASHING methods used to keep you buying more tools, AND more product.
Therefore, if "brainwashing" is taking place that means EVERYONE is either:
1. brainwashed,
2. in the process of being brainwashed
3. 'intended' to be brainwashed.
That then, in my opinion makes this business a CULT. The fact that they instill a 'phobia' (a little fear is good, not a phobia though)in you about not having enough to retire, becoming financially free, getting your wife home from her job, leaving a legacy and more just confirms the Cult aspect.
Now, it makes one wonder, WHO is the REAL Cultmaster? The Corporation or the Kingpin?
Maybe they SHARE the Cultmaster duties, and the BSMAA is there to protect THEM from EACH OTHER.
HERE IS A BOOK YOU'LL NEVER SEE ON THE BOOK OF THE MONTH
Read the book by Steve Butterfied:
"Amway: the Cult of Free Enterprise" , published by South End Press
Cost: $14.00 (cheap-price of 2 SOT /cd's)
See what has REALLY changed in the past 20 years.
You won't be able to put this book down.
http://www.southendpress.org/2004/items/Amway
A nice link from the The University of Virginia on brainwashing
To quote -
At least four professional associations have reviewed and found the brainwashing or thought reform thesis lacking in scientific merit.
But I'm sure you folk who prefer to blame someone else rather than actually take personal responsibility would prefer to believe in discredited theories like "brainwashing".
Here's another link from Slate
Ironic really, folk like Willy have this irrational belief in a idea, but continue to blindly believe in those who espouse it, despite clear legal and scientific evidence discrediting it. Sounds almost ... well, more than almost ... cult-like. Careful Willy, Steve Hassan might show up to kidnap and deprogramme you! roflmao!
Whether you sign the BSMAA are still stuck with arbitration from your Quixtar contract. In the end you are still screwed if you go up against them or they come after you. Oh, and don't forget when they put the screws to you, you can't tell any one either!
Insider,
The irony is you don't even read the stories you link to.
1st, we are not talking about suicide bombers and shoe bombers
2nd, I am not talking about a legal defense here, I am talking about a WARNING.
but maybe the last paragraph... paraphrased slightly differently since we are not talking about suicide bombers says it all:
"...the proper word to describe an act (sic) committed at the behest of a charismatic leader (sic) is not "brainwashed." It's evil."
MAYBE WHAT YOU DO ISN'T BRAINWASHING AT ALL, MAYBE IT IS PURE EVIL.
Thanks for the link. Read it yourself next time 1st, so I don't have to waste anymore of my time.
Insider - I'm taking personal responsibility for what I did. I have to, or do I have any other choice?
- I signed up at Quixtar, didn't research it properly and listened to one side only.
- I find out it's a scam, the hard way.
- I took responsibility of my actions and now I want to let other ppl know so they can make decision more carefully.
I'm not making my upline write this message, or my blog. I, me, myself taking responsibility and doing this all.
I thought insider was retired from this blog? If not, what is his point?
Forum dude, not blog.
Yes Willy, we're just evil incarnate. It was quite predictable you were going to say that. The point is, brainwashing doesn't exist. It's a myth. Evil on the other hand .... I actually have horns. Just like a goat Imran!
Imran, you self admittedly ran the business yourself as a scam. You admit trying to scam others. Why are you surprised it didn't work?
I run it as a business, it works like a business. Surprise surprise
Imran, you self admittedly ran the business yourself as a scam. You admit trying to scam others. Why are you surprised it didn't work?
When did I "admit" I ran it like a scam? IF I did, I would be platinum or above :) Seriously dude, you are so good at lying. Yet another lie from insider.
And link please, where I "admitted".
Classic Insider...givin' the QBlog a taste of his own medicine.
Imran, did you not say you thought the products were crap and not worth the price? But you still tried to convince your friends to buy them?
If that's what you believed, then you were trying to scam them, simple as that.
So insider, do you require your new IBOs to sign the BSMAA?
"Imran, did you not say you thought the products were crap and not worth the price? But you still tried to convince your friends to buy them?
If that's what you believed, then you were trying to scam them, simple as that."
So in other words Imran you never said you ran it like a scam, you said something that Insider took to make up some stuff about what he thinks you said or did and tried to post it as fact. Much like how he writes articles on his site.
so should i join or not, is it really a scam?
Imran, did you not say you thought the products were crap and not worth the price? But you still tried to convince your friends to buy them?
If that's what you believed, then you were trying to scam them, simple as that.
Ah,
So say that. Not your interpretation. Same thing you preach :) It is still exactly not what I said but much closer to. Please link me in future so reader can see what exactly was said and following discussion.
Ok, platinum Raaj and Rajni, training us in december 2002 in Toronto, Radisson Hotel, 401 | Victoria Park, (great couple). Rajni said, "We know products are expensive, but platinum bonus makes up for all that".
See? I don't know about Europe but in Canada, products are not good value. Point of selling and purchasing them was not their value, but to get free. As Doug Wier said in tape "Wednesday to Monday", "Who gives a rip about products. We all gonna be free"
My upline said, "This is people business. At the end of the day, it all depends how much people like Imran".
Kumar said some thing similar in many tapes that this is not a product business. He made a joke "Try going platinum with partner store products".
Od course in the beginning few products we used like LOC appeared good value. But when you do 300 PV and compare average product, it's not that good value! And how much LOC we could really use, even our home was as dirty as a desi home could be :)
And again, as I've told in the forum, when we did "buy for yourself" 300 PV, products were not worth the price. Then we changed strategy ourselves. We retailed, in last two months. only the products with somewhat good value, artistry. Even that was not worth the effort. Then we quit.
Now taking personal responsibility and telling others.
:)
XS, Seismic (those pizza stuff tastes good), my protein puddings are coming in and i already have orders for it..both client and downline..leaving me to order for myself. Artistry and NAO are really good. One of my ibos is in makeup school and she really likes NAO. My mom uses LOC and SA8. So does my gfs mom, the old ladies in her neighberhood. Lots others, the juice is coming, Best Buy could be our next partner store for 07..
..dude..admit it. You just suck -_-.
FYI: Trying to achieve 300pv home, when your house isnt worth..300pv in the first place can and will result in overspending. Its common sense..just have to point it out...
@bolda
Depends. The stuff your reading are peoples opinions. Even mine. If your saying if its illegal? Its not, nor is it a pyramid scheme. Will it be hard work? Hell yeah.
Joecool - only quixtar has the BSMAA, to best of my knowledge it doesn't exist in other markets.
the USA is much more litigious than other societies.
When the volume of tool sales overseas gets to what it is here; when kingpins argue over who has rights to downline, and crossline sales of tools; when they argue over who will manufacture the cds, when they argue over copyright infingement, when they argue over intellectual property rights, when they arue over who wants to change LOA for different tools / suppliers...
they'll settle their differences among themselves...PROBABLY WITHOUT LAWYERS.
GET IT?
Bolda,
This business opportunity is just that. A legitimate, business opportunity.
The only thing that can make this opportunity a 'scam', is a person. An individual. If THEY try to 'force' or 'coerce' you into something that doesn't make sense to you. Question it! Go with the guidelines to success (CORE) but also do it with common sense.
There's very good money to be made with EXCELLENT, top-quality, competitively priced products on a PART-TIME basis.
Anon
JC: [i]So insider, do you require your new IBOs to sign the BSMAA?[/i]
Insider: [i]Joecool - only quixtar has the BSMAA, to best of my knowledge it doesn't exist in other markets.[/i]
Now that's not really a straight answer, is it?
How about a yes or no? (Or at least a "yes, when" or "no except"?)
For me, its Yes, i have them agree.
Heres my question:
Why does it matter if they sign it or not?
If they sign it, they can buy tools.
If they dont, they cant buy tools.
If they sign it and doesnt want to buy tools, then no worries.
If they dont sign it and want to buy tools, then we have a problem
How exactly is this BSMAA arguement important? You need tools to effectively to the business. Even if its just ramp-up tools and the Webtour/BusinessOverview. Those are tools and to buy them, that means signing the BSMAA
DI - oh, sorry, I forgot. I don't keep up with all the conspiracy theories. How about this ....
The people who contribute to the insider persona that are Quixtar IBOs do ask their downline to sign the BSMAA 'cause if a dispute arose they'd much rather deal with it in arbitration than in court.
:-/
Christian, the BSMAA requires IBOs to use binding arbitration instead of going to court to resolve any disputes. Many feel that Quixtar's binding arbitration is unfair to the IBO. That is why people dislike the BSMAA.
I can not fathom that people still buy into this cult pyramid bullshit. I work with several Amwaway sales people and it's a total joke. You want to make money? You want "freedom in 5 years"? Here's the magic bean (and I won't make you sign up 45 of your friends for it). HARD WORK and RESULTS. That's how people get ahead. Period!
Does insider ever give a straight answer?
Christian,
You hit the nail right on the noggin.
"If they sign it, they can buy tools.
If they dont, they cant buy tools.
If they sign it and doesnt want to buy tools, then no worries.
If they dont sign it and want to buy tools, then we have a problem"
Oh this seems so obvious doesn't it?
I've been thinking about this one for awhile.
If you're a critic, why do you care if you signed it or not? What would you expect would happen if you didn't sign the darn thing?
If you're not in the business anymore,
why does this seem so important now?
Christian: "How exactly is this BSMAA arguement important?"
Ask Bruce Anderson.
Insider wrote: "to sign the BSMAA 'cause if a dispute arose they'd much rather deal with it in arbitration than in court."
Who is THEY?
Bruce Anderson? Hal Gooch? Amway?
This is not just mediation, or ordinary arbitration, it is BINDING Arbitration.
You give up your RIGHTS to go to court.
So much for "FREEDOM"
I know you don't like to grouped as 'They', but YOU brought it up, it is YOUR TERM>
THEY LIKE it because THEY are FREE to stick it up your ______ , steal your business, punish you for not edifying, and keep you QUIET.
So, dear Insider, again, WHO is THEY?
WHO benefits the MOST? huh?
So the BSMAA states that you have to go to Quixtars court withinn themselves instead of an actual court. I still dont see any problem in that. If you didnt scam a person into registering and asnwered all their questions, i doubt theyll have any problems. My new ibo (8th) went to a boardplan, sat down with me for Q&A, went to another boardplan to see it again and registered afterwards.
Uhh..whos Bruce Anderson?
Heres a point of view that everyone kinda forgot. Why does it matter? Current/Former IBOs, ask yourself what would have changed if you didnt sign it. I think youd still be able to get tools cuz i doubt your upline checks that before giving you your tools. If you had an arguement, are you going to court. First, were you scammed into entering? If not and you did something stupid, then its your stupid fault (duh).
If your in US, it might work cuz its happened were peoples stupidity actually made them money. Hot coffee is..hot..you dont need a warning to know this. Peanuts contain nuts..duh.
"...But why did my wife's sponsor tell her that she must sign it? Why did her upline repeat that myth? Why do so many IBOs I meet believe that it's required? Why did Quixtar customer service tell me it's part of the plan?..."
Because, perhaps -
The most excellent training system in the entire world of free enterprise is a bit lacking?
- 0r -
Those misinformed folks haven't gotten to that level of 'training' yet - as, well, you don't feed steak to a baby - and first focus on 'building the business' and not all that other legal stuff.
Because - the SOT/Book schedule is individually structured for each participant...they must get to the BSMAA eventually.
Example: Insider knows about it - although he's been 'around' for 7+ years, he didn't mention it until 3 months ago.
So, I'll bet all your wife's upline had been in for less than 6 years and 9 months.
'Cause apparently at 6 years and 10 months - your SOT CD talks about that.
Or, there's some sort of scam to just get people to by CDs and books.
It's not so much that an IBO settles in arbitration or court, but the BSMAA allows quixtar to select the arbitrators. That's why the BSMAA is unfair to IBOs.
ask your upline who Bruce Anderson was, and let me know what they say.
JoeCool - you know I'm not in the US, so saying the BSMAA is a US document answered your question directly. Since then it's just you obfuscating the issue.
Willy - the "they" was me as a hypothetical Quixtar IBO, with a bit of snark since some of you think i'm more than one person.
The BSMAA is a contract between two IBOs, the sponsor and the person they are sponsoring. If I'm sponsoring someone who I'm going to sell tools too, I quite obviously want them to sign it as I'd much prefer to go to arbitration than court, simple as that. I'd expect any other IBO would also want their downline to sign it for exactly the same reason. And as pointed out, as a downline you'd may not want to sign it, since it does, if enforceable, which is questionable, give away the right to sue your sponsor if you thought they did something wrong. Me, I'd be happy to sign it as both a downline and upline. Heck, I couldn't very well expect my downline to sign it if I wasn't willing to sign it myself as a downline, could I?
As to why Eric's wife was told the "myth", he already knows part of the answer - even Quixtar support thought (incorrectly) it was required. Upline was probably just wrong too. People can actually be wrong without any grand conspiracy being necessary
Insider> The BSMAA is a contract between two IBOs, the sponsor and the person they are sponsoring. If I'm sponsoring someone who I'm going to sell tools too, I quite obviously want them to sign it as I'd much prefer to go to arbitration than court, simple as that. I'd expect any other IBO would also want their downline to sign it for exactly the same reason.
Joe> Of course you would rather have arbitration than court, especially when quixtar chooses the arbitrators.
And as pointed out, as a downline you'd may not want to sign it, since it does, if enforceable, which is questionable, give away the right to sue your sponsor if you thought they did something wrong.
It's not really questionable. Arbitration agreements are usually supported by courts, unless there is a problem with the agreement itself that makes it an invalid contract.
Whoaaa...
Insider wrote: "The BSMAA is a contract between two IBOs, the sponsor and the person they are sponsoring."
Bruce Anderson was NOT downline to Hal Gooch ... Amway invoked the rule to arbitrate ANY dispute even between CROSSLINE Ibos.... Amway picked the arbitrators, ordered arbitration, assessed penalties and interest and took everything Anderson had, including his airplane, his money, his downline and Quixtar income. This was all over a measly $50,000 legal bill.
The Cultmaster (Amway) decided in favor of BIG Kingpin (Gooch) over Mini Kingpin (Anderson).
THIS was AFTER Amway paid $9 MILLION or was it $11 MILLION to RIAA, in the largest settlement EVER for copyright infringement.(They made "Rich and Famous Lifestyle" videos without proper permissions for background music)
All poor Anderson was trying to do was get back his legal fees from Kingpin Gooch.
They used arbitration to 'punish' , dismiss, and bankrupt him (Anderson). and to SILENCE him too.
The reason you ALL may as well sign the stinking BSMAA anyhow, is you'll NEVER BE DIAMOND, NOR MAKE ANY OF THE EXHORBITANT TOOL PROFITS THE AMOS MAKE.
@Joecool
Heres a point of view for you. You failed Quixtar, you think you got scammed into it, so the BSMAA protects the upline. Now, if the upline didnt scam you in in the first place, whats the problem with the BSMAA when you can just walk away if you werent scammed in the first place?
The only arguement here is downlines/new guys didnt know they didnt have to sign it..great. Thats all? How about we root out the scammers and make it abit tougher for new people to join?
Just walk away. Unlike a phone contract, you dont have to pay anything if you decide to leave
Quixtar doesn't get to simply choose the arbtitrator. They are selected from JAMS - one of the world's largest and oldest independent professional arbitration and dispute resolution providers. Are you suggesting the retired judges and experts employed by JAMS are easily influenced and won't understand the contracts IBOs have signed and thus can get unduely influenced by Quixtar?
Insider worte: "Quixtar doesn't get to simply choose the arbtitrator. They are selected from JAMS - one of the world's largest and oldest independent professional arbitration and dispute resolution providers. Are you suggesting the retired judges and experts employed by JAMS are easily influenced and won't understand the contracts IBOs have signed and thus can get unduely influenced by Quixtar?"
Yes,
the arbitrators are seemingly "trained" by the person that "hires" them, Quixtar. Otherwise how would they know about this business?
The BSMAA is an arbitration agreement NOT a tools, LOS, LOA or ANY other kind of contract BETWEEN anybody.
Good Post Willy!
BTW, did the kangaroo court JAMS arbitrators ever rule in favor of an IBO over a QMO/quixtar corp.?
Well i see Insider,Michael, and Christian are still fighting for the Dream! No if you were you would not be spending alot of your time here. You should be out 7 to 8 nights a week showing the plan! You are missing your calling to be rich! Well let me go back to my job and broke life!
...all you need is 6 quality legs under you and help them reach to a certain level..i only show the plan 1-2times a week now..and it takes 15 to 30mins tops. Sometimes i dont even have to show the plan, cuz im already doing it on the bus/train by talking about it.. -_- ..
..jeez..
This is usually quite above me, but had you all considered your age? No one says you have to buy tools in order to build a house or a Quixtar business. But you try keeping 2 boards together without a tool, or two people in your downloine without a tool.
Well?
Try hammering in a nail with the palm of your hand, or getting someone to realize that placing all your eggs in one basket of income is risky.
There was a statement that was made. People who understand often times laugh at it. The statement was that the tapes were a means of brainwashing(true) that is intended to make people buy more tapes and more product(false). This is called a half-truth.
Any intelligent individual within himself can reason, "this tape contains information that is changing my thinking each time I hear it". An individual without any outside influence can also discern "this is good or bad information". I have never in my life heard a tape that encouraged any individual to buy more "product" than he or she needs, nor to buy more and more and more tapes with reckless abandon.
That statement (the one that was made a far at the top of this page) reflects that the individual did not listen to the tapes.
A bit of Monty python logic for you- If you listened to the tape like your sponser told you, you would be "BRAINWASHED" as you so aptly said.
If you did not listen to the tapes, then you have no right to tell other people what is on them, because the best you have is second hand information.
What you seem to mis-understand is that you truly own a business. Many critics as they would like to be called it seems has yet to compare Quixtar, Amway, Amivo, Mary Kay or any cost-avoidance organization to any other cost-accepting business. SUch as McDonnalds.
Ray Crok went up to people on the street and said "Hey buddy. Do you want to own your own business?" Some would say "your nuts." Others would day "I don't know". We call those red and yellow lights. Then there are those who say "I was looking for a way to own my own business but I didn't know how I might pull it all together; I would like to see what you've got, Ray Crok."
Ray had critics too. But there came a time that McDonnalds became so big that Ray didn't care anymore. It's kinda like platinum. What about the guy that got in McDonnalds and lost his shirt?
Oh! McDonnalds is a Bad Organization! It's a Scam! You get in and the say "Do X Y and Z and make 6 figures! My McDonnalds never did that! It's A Scam!" No, my dear friends, it's a buisness. There are no Guarentees. Whats funny, and I mean really funny, is how misguided all the critics are. Saying that you are in Quixtar is like saying you are in Golden State Foods.
For all of those who are unknowing of that company, That is the organization that Ray set up that supplies all the shakes, burger-patties, buns, fries, shortining and what-not, so McDonnalds doesn't have to cut deals with local merchants. You can still see them a-truckin' up the highway and pulling into the 30,000 McDs across the Globe (well, not all from the highway).
Imagine if Sams Club had a deal- get all the same Sam Walton discounts but with a percentage back! Tell your friends and earn a percentage from thier purchases too!
Wow. What a concept. Worked for Ray Croc. He earns a 2% royalty from each McDs. That's great for the owners of those businesses because they keep 98%, but didn't have to do much work or advertising or what-not to keep the business running. They just had to get it UP and RUNNING- something most people at this site failed to do.
How do you teach people the McDonnalds system? You hear this buzzer, lift up the fires. You hear this alarm, Turn the key here. You hear this beeping and you... well... run- or whatever. That's a small part of the system.
The large part is how to run the McDonnalds efficively. How to arrange the colors, booths, lines, checkouts- ALL THE THINGS RAY CROK DID. (Wait. isn't it Ray Croc? I think it's with a C). Ray opened up about 18 stores and almost went bankrupt. Most people don't know that about McDonnalds.
Today, people can get that information- That tool if you will.
People have to educate themselves, because no one can beam the information inside thier head. YOu go to a college called "Hamburger University". It's about a 9 month program that costs about 1.7 million dollars (program and McDonnalds store/franchise). No one is criticizing that?
YOou don't see any web sites dedicated to de-frauding that? But you take that exact same concept and say "we don't need the 1.7 mill storefront, lets use a website, or a person-to-person distribution, and what are you left with? That's right . Golden State Foods. You order your hamburgers online, and the owner of the McDs will go to your door and say "here" or deliver it to you somehow. It would be very effective if people weren't impulsive. They're hungry now- not later.
Many people fail to plan and so they- that'r right- Business support material #101 - can plan to fail.
You don't see anyone criticizing that? What about Hamburger University? Well, break that down into Books, tapes, rallys, and meetings to get the information a small bit at a time so that you can afford it.
My God. What an awful thing to do for people. Does anyone see any difference I'm not mentioning between this increasingly hypothetical McDonnalds store and a Quixtar "franchise"? (Yes, I know it's McDonald, but I don't wish to ensue any bias if you like or dislike the company). If you see a difference, please, oh, post away and chip through the armor of this highly-esteemed quixtar enthusiast.
Quixtar is an oppertunity. It is a supplier of goods and services. If there is someone who does quite well, teaching people how to make contacts, reselling products to people who- get this- actually want the products, then that person knows that is a full time job. WHhat if they could do one talk, and cut a tape. Same information, is it not? What if that ONE PERSON'S side business gets bigger and bigger that so many tapes are out and so many books are recommended that it becomes an intity on it's own. Would that not be who your beef is with?
Sorry; I used a teenage coloquialism. But who are you 'critics' mad at? Quixtar? or the person who has the books, tapes, and the seperate business that supports the quixtar franchise?
Ooo. interesting quistion. Could it be that you've been so blindingly angry that you were willing to defraud anything that you could wrap your hands around, and Quixtar seemed like a good scapegoat?
Check what Forbes Magazing says about Quixtar.
2005 June issue of Success Magizing (I believe that was the issue) is all about Quixtar- a magazine that usually showcases MANY businesses.
Well, Forbes and Success Mag must be evil like the Quixtar coorp. and Golden State Foods. You know they are in the same category.
But you have a second organization that says "in order to buy my tools (or in order to go to Hamburger University), you must sign up."
Let the criticizm pour in.
Why don'y you compare this business to other businesses, oh critic?
Why don't you offer something better.
You sell items and re-sell them for a profit everyday- It's just at your job and you're doing it for someone else, not for you.
Now, case in point- you're not the only one that benifiets from your customers in Quixtar, but since when is that a bad thing. You didn't go and build the widget, nor did you go to the cooperation and say "can I work with you".
Compare this to anything else and criticize. Offer something better SINCE YOU SAY QUIXTAR IS BAD. If it's so bad, there must be something good, so tell us all what is good.
If you can't then kindly speak more softly.
P.S. How old are you really. I'm curious.
Platinum said :
My God. What an awful thing to do for people. Does anyone see any difference I'm not mentioning between this increasingly hypothetical McDonnalds store and a Quixtar "franchise"? (Yes, I know it's McDonald, but I don't wish to ensue any bias if you like or dislike the company). If you see a difference, please, oh, post away and chip through the armor of this highly-esteemed quixtar enthusiast.
Do I see any difference between McD franchise and a Q* francise? Of course, I do. I get my McD franchise from McD corporation directly. Not from the owner of my neighborhood McD restaurant.
Can I get the Q* franchise without an IBO referral? Can I buy from Q* and retail it without my customers having to become my downline? And make a decent profit (not talking about the "diamond lifestile") with reasonable efforts and with reasonable risks?
Platinum,
Your entire comparison to McDonalds is... well it's a "Kroc" of shit, really. Here is the difference. McDonalds business owners actually sell products (hamburgers) to customers who want them for the sole purpose of consuming the products. They aren't pestered into opening thier own business so they can get rich buying from themselves and recruiting others to do the same.
McDonalds has real customers who are not participants in the McDonalds franchise system. They aren't trying to profit by recruiting an endless chain of other McDonalds franchise owners to be their best and only customer. Something you Quixtarians wouldn't know about, selling products to people who aren't IBOs.
Cause you know what you get when you have a bunch of people out trying to recruit in an infinite and endless chain? An unsustainable system where the vast majority of people are mathematically guaranteed to lose out. That is the Quixtar "system".
Just answering questions
- McD is corp owned, Quixtar IBOs have their business privately owned
- You cant get a Q* franchise without an IBO referral, but when you decided to start a McD franchise, didnt someone talked to you about it and helped you out (thus like a referral without pay)
- Yes, you can retail without your customers not becoming downline..its called Retail Clients, or Clients for short
- You make more money having 100 clients than having 100 downlines
- So, because i can make money if i drink XS, thats bad? I dont get the arguement of [McDonalds business owners actually sell products (hamburgers) to customers who want them for the sole purpose of consuming the products]
- They arent pestered into opening their own business? Good, neither do i. Ill gladly make money from my clients if they dont want to build a business, even though for a fact that they will tell other people that they like the detergent, or food/drinks or the body builing stuff...hey! More money for me
- Refer on the first set of answers
- Majority of the people are afraid of change, majority of the people have jobs, majority of the people depend on pensions and aid from government. Majority of the people work their ass off all their life and have nothing to show for it when they turn 65. Majority of the people dont read business magazines stating that pensions from companies shoudnt be relied upoun. Majority of the people are happy with their 40hr/week of work, and majority keeps complaining problems that are related to lack of time and money
--- Minority has a business mentality, minority are wealthy (NOT RICH), minority has a lot of time AND money, minority are willing to learn more, instead of the majority who keeps talking like they know everything
--- Guess what, im one of the minority who has a decent client base that nets me more than the needed $90 + the stupid $18SOT. Im also the minority who has legs that are active and has client base...and when i say client base, they arent downlines..i dont pay them bonuses. Money is made off them
Christian,
Your statements about the majority and the minority is correct. But isn't that how it should be, if we want things to be sustainable. If a majority of people can amass considerable wealth and leave behind a residual income, what would that wealth be worth?
The majority will have to work their entire productive lifetime and may or may not have a secure retirement (just like the majority of Q* IBOs), but the good news is that in most of the civilized societies, this majority makes money from the system. But in a pyramid scheme, the majority earns outside of the system and pours it into the system, coming out as net losers. This is supported by the fact that only people with secure finances are targeted by Q* IBIs. If this system is really that good for the little guy, why don't people target the really needy people?
As someone who has used some of the Q* products as a customer, I find it difficult that there would be a big enough base of loyal customers for these products for a retail-only IBO to make a decent profit. But if you are making the profit, good for you.
Just curious if anyone has heard of MLM Trainer Dale Calvert? I went to his website and ordered several DVD's (www.MLMHelp.com).
A sideline friend told me he had some awesome training.
Thanks
JD
While you're comparing McDonald's to quixtar, why not mention that over 98% of McDonald's owners make money while over 98% of quixtar IBOs lose money.
There is no comparison.
@Joecool18
Great, compare those people with their work habits, personal skills(management/leadership), and having atleast 1mil to invest in atleast having the name "McDonalds"
Out of my 8 guys, i have 1 person that isnt doing anything. Thats 12.5 of my business. Hes lazy, hes in it for the money, but he only does anything business related when he feels like it. He doesnt even listen to a cd/day and instead plays videogames and gets drunk and stoned.
Not saying videogames are bad, or getting drunk or stoned is..cuz everyone here knows, i do them, but i just have a better knowledge of priority and time management than he does.
@Balaji
Why IBOs dont target the needy people? Cuz they have no jobs, thus no money to register, pay for the site and go on SOT? Contrary to what Kiyosaki says, you need money to make money. Then again, i know a couple of people who make a lot of money but doesnt have time due to 2 jobs or 3..
Is it just me, or have I seen all of Platinum's statements before?
I especially like the part about the brainwashing...
Christian,
I'm sure there are IBOs who make no effort. But out of the many who are CORE and make the effort, their success rate is far less than the 98% or higher success rate of a McDonald's owners. It's evident by the lack of new diamonds emerging from quixtar.
Are we talking about only CORE..or CORE AND practising it? Cuz some people in my uplines team (and 1-2 of my own) is very much CORE but they dont practice it. They listen to CDs about personal use and slowly transfering their buying habits, but yet only buy xs and trim bars..leaving the makeup/cosmetic and laundry/kitchen area out. Theres also some that listen to How to Contact and Invite or People Practices (John Maxwell) yet they dont apply it by starting a convo with strangers cuz their too stupidly afriad...
About new Diamonds...there are new Rubys, Platinums, Deagles and Eagles..
Christian, no matter how you slice it, quixtar success does not compare to McDonald's. Trying to justify it just makes you look weak.
How many new quixtar diamonds are there? 1 or 2 since 1999? Isn't is a 2-5 year plan?
A question for all of you,
I recently met with an IBO and he explained to me that he had a "business opportunity" involving the internet if I was interested. Sort of like Amazon.com (I'm sure we have all heard that before). Well anyways, being the open-minded person that I am, I met with him and he showed me "the plan". Seemed to good to be true so I decided to do a little research on my own. This site, as well as merchants of deception, brought me back to reality and helped me to make a logical decision. I told the guy I was not interested in his "business opportunity".
And now for my question...
I told him I had seen some very discouraging information on the web that brought me to believe there was something very unethical going on. He told me to check some "credible" sites like BBB, IRS.gov, FTC.gov. I checked out those sites, but I'm still convinced that I do not want to be a member of this crooked organization. Why did he advise that I go to those sites? Is there some kind of connection between those organizations and Quixtar/Amway? Does anybody have any information on this topic?
Thanks again for helping me out with my decision.
Shockr,
He told you that because actually, Quixtar pays their bills and taxes so there's nothing on them with the IRS or BBB.
He apparently didn't read the FTC website because although Awway was found legal because they had rules to prevent frontloading inventory, etc., Amway was still found in violation and fined for making outrageous income claims.
And for those who say Quixtar is not Amway, why refer to that 1979 FTC ruling? Quixtar did not exist in 1979.
Of course they want you to sign the BSMAA. You have to protect yourself from the crazy people that get involved, expecting to be millionaires in a week, and then getter bitter and "lawsuit-happy". It's common sense.
You "now" have proof? That fax is dated August 28th and was posted on The Truth About Amway and Quixtar site August 29 and commented upon on your original post.
I know you say you've been busy ... but "now" and "3 months ago" aren't exactly the same thing. :-)
Posted by: insider | December 3, 2006 7:35 AM