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November 21, 2006
Being CORE
By Drew in A/QMOs
Being involved in a motivational organization of Quixtar the chances are good one will hear about "Being CORE". When I was in BWW this simply meant doing the 9 CORE steps each and every month without fail. Now first of all this actually makes sense (I know bear with me) on some levels. I think in any business there are going to be CORE duties that one will have to do on a regular basis to be successful. The problem I have with the current 9 steps is that I am not sure if they are all about helping someone to have a successful business or if they are a bu$ine$$ in themselves.
For instance 5 of the 9 steps involve the IBO spending money to complete those steps with the money from 4 of those steps going directly into upline's pockets. When one adds up the cost of being core against the average income of an IBO you can see things get expensive pretty quick.
However, I think I have come up with a way to find out what CORE is really all about. Two steps in the CORE plan talk about listening to a tape a day and reading for at least 15 minutes a day. Many IBOs can relate these steps to Standing Order Tape (SOT) or Book Of the Month (BOM). My question however would be do you really need to be on SOT and BOM to be CORE? The steps simply say to listen to a tape a day and read for 15 minutes a day. So what if I am buying my own books from my partner store Barnes & Noble (because one of the CORE steps is all about product loyalty) that I feel will help me and am reading at least 15 minutes a day? Does that still make me a CORE IBO, or do I need to be buying and reading the BOM to be CORE? How about tapes? What if I decide Zig Ziglar, or Tony Robbins is more my style and decide to listen to those tapes everyday instead of the SOT? Am I still a CORE IBO, or do I need to be buying and listening only to the SOT to be CORE?
If you are an Eagle in the business and you decide to drop SOT and BOM and get your tapes and books from another source, you would still be doing the steps, but do you think you will get approved for your reserved seat at the next function? Personally, I wouldn't bet on it. If the true motivation of the 9 CORE steps (by the way recently updated from 8 CORE steps when Communikate came along, yet another tool upline makes money off of somehow became vital to downline business) is to help build a big business then I don't think it should matter where you get your tapes and books from. But I would suppose if the 9 CORE steps is a good way to get downline excited about stuffing money in their upline's pocket.....well then I think the program has achieved great success.
Comments
Core means paying for your own brainwashing materials, but ONLY brainwashing materials supplied by your upline.
Tape says go to Seminar
Seminar says go to Conference
Conference says go to the Tape
THAT is the real 'Circle' that is drawn.
"Traditional" Sales and training legend Brian Tracy says he doesn't know of a single top salesperson that doesn't read every day and listen to a tape/cd everyday. "Core" in Amway/Quixtar world has developed from standard sales success. It doesn't mean listening to a tape of Paris Hilton and reading a Manga book everyday. If you are choosing to be "core" with tools supplied outside your system, how does your upline know whether it's actually relevant or of any quality?
Having said that, if all you do is read only books and listen to only tapes/CDs from our system on a daily basis, then you'll quickly run out of options - at least if you read aas quickly as I do! In my view true leaders, true owners of their own business, not only can, but must listen and read materials from outside the system. Today I've been reading a book "Success Intelligence" by Robert Holden and listening to a CD "psychology of winning" by Denis Waitley. Neither from N21, but both are part of me being core.
Having said that, if you exclusively source from outside the system you'd have to be an idiot. The books and CDS are way cheaper from N21 then from other sources. Even when it's exactly the same material.
Does "traditional sales legend" Brian Tracy sell books and CDs? I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Maybe that's why he said that - to make people think buying books and CDs (which would include what he sells) is necessary for success.
What proof is there of his statement? Maybe he doesn't know that many successful sales people. :-)
And even if it is true (which we don't know), why can't INDEPENDENT business owners make their own choices about what they want to listen to or read? Sure, they can take suggestions from their upline, but why are the CORE requirements restricted only to system products? Or why can't BWW make use of N21 or INA tools? (I know they use WWDB sometimes, but Britt and Puryear are apparently friends.)
Do those successful salespeople Brian Tracy talks about listen only to tapes and read only books provided by their bosses? Do they have a tape and book schedule they are told they MUST follow to be successful?
CORE is designed to provide a constant source of income for the big pins.
Rather than being recognized for being CORE, IBOs should be recognized only for achieving what CORE purports to be designed to produce: profitable IBOs growing in pin level. Kinda like in college, you don't graduate summa cum laude if you really tried and studied every night - only if your GPA is high enough. The recognition for CORE just keeps people hopeful for something that might never happen and helps to keep them in.
Just my opinion, but I'm probably right. ;)
You are so stupid
I've often been confused when my in-laws overlook some really great websites that have many quality books at dirt cheap prices or don't even try to get some of their tools through ebay. All I was trying to do was help them get closer to making a profit.
They told me that the choose to support their upline because their upline has helped them so much.
*sigh*
It's a losing battle.
Rara,
Forget P.O.'s comment. What you siad is right on the mark.
IM,
P.O. wrote something?
Oh... that. (Nyuk nyuk nyuk).
Don't worry, I'm not very sensitive. :D
Insider, your double talk is really special, in an Olympic kind of way. Just read yourself for a minute.
"If you are choosing to be "core" with tools supplied outside your system, how does your upline know whether it's actually relevant or of any quality?"
Followed by:
"In my view true leaders, true owners of their own business, not only can, but must listen and read materials from outside the system."
So which is it?
And at what point does one decide what's best for their business?
Your upline must love you
Baaaaaaaa Bbbaaaaaaaa
As usual Insider can't seem to get a grasp on what is a very simple question. So since he apparently needs his hand held through yet another lesson, let me make this more clear.
The point of this article is talking about SOT and BOM. Two programs that required a commitment to buy a tape a week and book a month.
Now my question is simple. The steps say just to listen to a tape a day and read everyday. So what if you purchased your books and tapes on your own but still listened and read everyday, (and yes I am talking about business tapes and books since Insider apparently cannot grasp that fact)?
So what if you decide to not be on those programs so you can buy some tapes from N21, then some from WWDB, and even some tapes from outside like Zig Ziglar? What if you buy your own books from Barnes and Noble partner store so you get your PV?
Are you still CORE since you are doing the steps? Or do you have to be on the program to be CORE? Simple really if you are recognized as CORE while not on those programs then being CORE is about helping you. If you are not recognized as CORE because you are not on SOT and BOM, then it is clearly about money.
So tell me which is it?
Drew,
The purpose of being core is not to be core. It's simply a description of what is considered necessary to succeed. If you are doing those things with non-system materials of equal, or for that matter, better quality, then yes you are core and thus it should help you succeed.
Your confusing being core with being recognized as core. The recognition is there because it helps motivate people to be core. Without an upline reading and listening to the same stuff you are, the upline cannot know if it is relevant, quality material or not, so they quite obviously cannot recognize you as core.
So yes, you would be core, but at the same time you quite obviously could not achieve recognition as being core, since nobody would know what it was. If you listen to paris hilton and read manga comics and claim that to be core, and I just accept your word for it that you are core, and 5 years later you're still a 3%er you could claim "you said if I was core for 5 years I'd be a diamond!"
Core is about doing what's necessary to build a business. The steps in core are virtually the same as is suggested for success in virtually ANY environment. Do the work. Learn what to do. Work as a team. That's it.
As for the attempts to discredit Brian Tracy, go do your own research and see who hires him, who reads his books and listens to his tapes, and what they say. It's pathetic the way some folk try to belittle ANYONE that says anything that happens to agree with the way A/Q works.
Rara -
1. IBOs are absolutely free to chose what the listen to and read. What on earth makes you think they aren't?
2. IBOs are recognized for what core aims to create - growing businesses. They receive Amway pins and recognition for growing in volume, and in Network TwentyOne we have other recognitions for developing the right structure, so that there's profitability as well as just volume.
The data shows that being core leads to increasing volume. That's why it's encouraged.
There's a fundamental absurdity in the whole claim about Core being about selling tools and not about building a network. Let's assume it's true - how exactly does the upline get more people to buy tools?
Drew,
This really is a silly and pointless question.
Are you still CORE since you are doing the steps?
Answer: YES, of course you are.
It doesn't matter if you buy ebooks or download MP3's for all I care, as long as you are personally benefitting from the personal developement aspect of the business. Otherwise if you aren't benefitting from it, you are just throwing your money away foolishly.
Also, it's not about buying the books to make a profit for the author either. I think it's okay for the author to make a profit as long as it's providing real world solutions, or answers to a particular problem.
Drew, just an FYI, WWDB has added the "premier membership" as the 10th core step this year.
Just my 2 cents.
BOs are absolutely free to chose what the listen to and read. What on earth makes you think they aren't?
Uh...because uplines flip over if they find you reading some sales / motivational non system book or seminars. System is the answer of every thing. Don't you know?
Baaaaaaaa Bbbaaaaaaaa
Now I love you.
Insider,
Again, you are deliberately missing the point. Of course IBOs can listen to or read whatever they read. (This is America, remember.) The question is, if they read and listen to stuff other than what is on the upline's list, will they still be considered CORE? I thought Drew had already explained that a second time.
And I didn't belittle Brian Tracy. I don't know he is and didn't bother to check, because, frankly, I don't care. I even allowed for the fact that he may be right. Maybe you might want to read my post again.
By the way, I just googled Brian Tracy. He cells books, CDs, and DVDs, so the first thing I said about him may not be so inconceivable. I'm sure he's great and all, but he also wants to make money.
Forgive my skepticism. I was once a BWW IBO.
Oh, and the first two pages of search results had nothing negative about such a hugely important and famous motivational speaker. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about the Quixtar motivational leaders I googled. I'm just sayin'.
Oh, and I'm sure Brian Tracy doesn't make anyone buy his products in order for them to considered anything like "CORE." I'm sure he doesn't say buying and using his products is the ONLY way to achieve success either.
All the evidence points to the truth that the kingpins make the vast majority of thier income from taking the money of their downline. There can be no doubt that their major income is from tools & functions. I have offered to show this truth to Insider, but he failed to respond to my offer. So I'll make my offer again.
Insider, I can show you the evidence that the kingpins make the vast majority of their income from tools and functions. I have a great cd that explains this(it will only cost you $7). Ofcourse you will have to order several more to get the complete picture. Also, I have a book that reveals some more evidence with a new one coming out each month. Each will only cost you $14.95. I will also be hosting a family reunion that you can attend for $125 (a great deal for you as we will consider you family). There you can learn a great deal of the evidence. And most important there will be a three day event (only $175) where you will learn even more. For $21.95 a month, we can put you on our communicate voice mail system where you can hear updated evidence as it comes in. So there you have it. I can provide the evidence. All I ask you to do is trust me since I am someone who wants to mentor you in this area. Let me know.
Michael,
I know you will come here and say that, and every other IBO will want to say the same. But what about Eagle? Let's say you have all the structure etc except you are not on SOT and BOM but you are still doing the steps do you get recognized with your reserved seat at the function?
I say no you won't. Why you ask? Everytime I heard about Eagle and the 9 CORE steps reading and listening was directly related to SOT and BOM. Basically you had to be on those programs to be considered as someone doing those steps.
Are you really going to try and tell everyone that the majority of motivational organizations do not see those steps as buying tapes and books and not just doing the steps?
Doesn't surprise me about another step. Does that membership put money in upline pocketbooks? No wonder they make it a step that supposedly helps grow your business.
One question on that note though, who has gone Diamond being on the premier membership? If the CORE steps are proven steps to helping you build a business is the step really proven before it gets added?
Insider,
You are avoiding straight answers.
1) Nobody suggested that reading Manga comics and listening to Paris Hilton should be considered as being core. So let's not bring them up again.
2) Have you already exhausted all the books/tapes that your systems recommends for being core? You certainly imply that, but it is still not very clear. If you have, then you have no way of being 'recognised as' being core any further ('cos your system is not churning out material fast enough for you). How can such a person (other than by slowing down) ensure that he/she is core and perceived as being core by upline?
3) Who in your system makes the call that Robert Kiyosaki's book for example helps the IBOs succeed (and hence his book ensures recognition as core) and Robert Holden's doesn't? Can downlines recommend books to uplines?
4) Nobody belittled Brian Tracy. It would be good if you can give the exact quote from him with reference. But the fact remains that any self help Guru out there would be very aware of the impact AMOs could have on his/her book (by making it the BOM or its equivalent). So I wouldn't be surprised when they agree with AMOs. I don't know the credentials of Brian Tracy, especially whether he achieved anything in life prior to writing self-help books.
Your confusing being core with being recognized as core. The recognition is there because it helps motivate people to be core. Without an upline reading and listening to the same stuff you are, the upline cannot know if it is relevant, quality material or not, so they quite obviously cannot recognize you as core.
First of all this whole time I have been talking about being recognized as CORE, not just doing CORE. I established that CORE was being done the whole time and brought into question the recognition.
Second your answer is ridiculous at best. You are saying since I am buying the tools from my upline and they are the same then they know the content so they can agree that it is appropriate.
So how about this then. IBO A buys tools from upline but only listens to the tape once so he knows what is on it and doesn't listen again until the next one shows up, and only reads a couple of times a week. IBO B doesn't get on SOT or BOM but instead gets his business books from B&N partner store to stay loyal to his business and gets his tapes from various organizations and outside sources to get various perspectives and teachings. But he listens and reads every single day.
Under your logic IBO A can fake it and get recognized as CORE since his upline has the same tools, but IBO B is SOL since his upline doesn't have the same tools as he does. Simply proving that the whole recognition of Eagle and CORE is a marketing ploy to get IBOs on tools and not really about helping anyone.
Thanks for helping me show that to all the visitors.
There's a fundamental absurdity in the whole claim about Core being about selling tools and not about building a network. Let's assume it's true - how exactly does the upline get more people to buy tools?
Gee what a toughy. Let's see I guess first you would come up with some steps making sure to add in all the things that put money in your pocket. Sprinkle in some extras to make it not so obvious then preach nothing but the 9 CORE steps and tell IBOs how just these 9 steps will get them where they want to be.
Tell them about all the recognition and special privleges that go with it when you get a good solid structure, and then give that a fancy name like "Eagle" and "Double Eagle", or "Super Awesome Eagle Grand Master Dragon Wizard" (sorry couldn't help myself).
Then get on stage and tell stories about how when you were a young IBO you weren't doing one of the steps and then all of the sudden when you decided to finally get on tapes and listen, or you decided to get BOM and read your business exploded (stories I have actually heard from stage) and you were Diamond in no time. Tell IBOs other stories about quitters and whiners, and losers who never bought tapes and books and how they are broke and standing in soup lines begging you for money now that you are rich.
Sounds kinda familiar.....Oh yeah that's the way it currently works in the motivational organizations.
Gee after answering that tough question I think I might need to go lie down now. *sarcasm off*
Drew,
If core is about selling tools, and not building a network, then where do the new customers for the tools come from?
But here's the key Drew - Who cares about getting recognized as core? You seem to think the reason for being core is to get recognized as core. Get rid of the recongition of core and it makes no difference to whether it works or not. Fake being core, doesn't work. Be core with quality materials sourced "outside the system" - still works. Recognition of being core is not the goal.
balaji,
I'm not trying to avoid "straight answers". It's just not a simple thing to explain. But yes, I have absolutely recommended books upline, and I take recommednations of books from anyone who will give it to me. Every time so far I've recommended a book upline I've found it's already been on the book program. N21 doesn't keep an everlasting catalogue of everything ever offerred. Serious IBOs are expected to source other materials.
rara,
I listen and read to stuff not available from N21 all the time, and N21 leaders recommend IBOs do this. Makes no difference to whether I'm core or not.
Let's try to be clear. Core is about doing what's necessary to build a business. If you are doing those steps from "outside" of the system, then you are still "core" but quite obviously it cannot be judged by someone else for the purpose of recognizing it. Doesn't matter if you are recognized or not there. It's about doing it.
Maybe this example will be enlightening.
If I have a new IBO in my organization who cannot afford to buy the tapes or books, but they borrow them off me and listen to and read them and do the other "core" steps - then they will absolutely still be recognized by me as core and encouraged to stand up or cross the stage or whatever as such if that kind of recognition is being done.
Whats more, if you want to read manga comics and listen to crappy CDs and claim you are core, well fine, claim you are core, walk across stage as core, whatever. But don't complain if your business doesn't grow. Your problem, not mine.
Drew,
I understand where your coming from, but how do they keep track whether or not you are 100% core?
You don't get recognised for being "core". That's why you're making a big deal about nothing. If you were talking about Eagle qualifications, that's totally different.
Being "core" and being "eagle" is completely separate.
So again, your question is:
1)My question however would be do you really need to be on SOT and BOM to be CORE?
My answer is NO, of course not.
2)If you are an Eagle in the business and you decide to drop SOT and BOM and get your tapes and books from another source, you would still be doing the steps, but do you think you will get approved for your reserved seat at the next function?
No. If you are going for the Eagle qualifications then you should be following what your upline Diamond suggests.
What are the Eagle qualifications?
Follow that if you want to be recognised as an Eagle. Plain and simple.
You've pretty much answered your own question when you really think about it, Drew.
insider,
Drew is not talking about an IBO being recognized by you as being core. He's talking about being recognized by the motivational org.
For you IBOs out there, maybe you can ask your uplines whether your system would recognize you as core if you are not on standing order and book of the month. In BWW, if you weren't on these two programs, you were not considered to be serious about building the business, much less being core. And I seriously doubt many uplines would lend downline IBOs tapes for free indefinitely. Hence, you will have to buy your own eventually.
If you don't want to acknowledge that most of the core steps are a profit center for your upline, that's fine. It's your money, not mine.
Being "core" and being "eagle" is completely separate.
WRONG! Try again! Where are the 9 CORE steps listed? Oh yeah in the Eagle Pamphlet. If they are completely seperate why are they listed in that pamphlet. They are listed as the steps for doing Eagle, Double Eagle, and Ultimate Eagle work with the number of plans being the only difference.
In that Eagle brochure those steps say you need to read and listen everyday and the only mention of SOT and BOM is when it comes to how many legs need to be on those programs. No mention of the actual Eagle needing to be on them. So again I ask if they are seperate why are the 9 core steps listed?
You know as well as I do that it is implied that being recognized as CORE you are on the SOT and BOM program. For some reason now you are trying to seperate the two. You can try to dance around this all day Michael, it's not going to work.
If core is about selling tools, and not building a network, then where do the new customers for the tools come from?
Do you know the 9 CORE steps? Or do you just have a case of "ask stupid questionidis"? Step 1 deals with what Insider? There you go, that's right showing the plan. Let's see if you are CORE and showing the plan 3 times a week that means more customers to buy books, tapes, function tickets, and Communikate. Pretty good little racket isn't it.
But here's the key Drew - Who cares about getting recognized as core?
and the questions just continue. In my experience in BWW just about everyone cared about getting recognized as being CORE. Being recognized as CORE by their upline was reassurance that they felt they were doing what it took to be rich and in the end all they were doing was what it took to make their upline rich.
But let me guess you are going to claim you have never seen such an act and therefore it just couldn't exist even though there are several hundred testimonies on the net that disagree with you?
Get off the comic book kick because you know as well as the rest of us that it was never implied that IBOs who were getting books for themselves were reading anything but business related books. Pretty sad Insider that you just have to make crap up cause you know you can't defend it.
rara, in our organization, the person who determines whether someone is core or not is that person. If the MC says "ok, everyone who is core, come up on stage", the individual IBO is the person who decides whether they are core or not. Same for any recognitions which have being "core" as a requirement. While upline leaders do get spreadsheets with info on who is subscribed to what, nobody is spending their time checking all of this. If an IBO wants to say they are core and their not on the N21 tape or book program, nobody is likely to even notice.
Drew - so what you are saying is that in order for an upline to grow their "tools business" the downline would need to do what? Grow their A/Q network? :-O!!!
But that would mean an upline actually wants their downline to grow the A/Q network! Say it ain't so Drew - you mean you're actually admitting it is in an upline's interest to give the best possible advice to help a downline grow their A/Q business?
Insider,
Of course it is in there best interests to help them grow a big group of people. More people to buy tapes, books, function tickets and Kate subscriptions.
But what you apparently can't get your mind around is that there is a HUGE difference between helping someone grow a big group and helping someone grow a profitable business.
How is there a HUGE difference between building a big group and building a profitable business? Even if the goal was to sell tools, wouldn't it be in an uplines best interest to have someone build a large AND profitable Amway business? Wouldn't a profitable IBO be more likely to continue building it, thus generating more tool sales?
I think your idea makes sense. Why not take it a step further and buy the books and tapes used from ebay and save a ton of money. If tapes and books are items that are required to be core why not save a buck or two. So maybe the tapes/cds you will get, might not be the most up to date but they should be recent enough. Also to get the latest information all the IBO needs to do is go to the latest function and make their own recording of it. If the IBO has downline in different regional areas then they could make copies of the functions they went to and share them. Or to be more profitable they could make their own copies of the functions they atteneded and sell them to thier downline for $3 a cd.
Wow! I am fired up! How about you? :>
Drew,
What am I "dancing" around? I've answered your questions directly.
Yes they are two completely separate qualifications. Core is separate from eagle. Eagle Qualifications is a completely different step.
Drew, I ask again,
What are the eagle qualifications to qualify to be in the eagle section at the function? What are the requirements for being CORE?
I really don't know what you're getting so upset over. It doesn't make sense. It's a really SIMPLE and CORRECT response.
I think Viktor's on to something. I still don't understand why the material on tapes couldn't ALL be made downloadable for MP3 players, and a list of reading material simply be made available for IBOs. IBOs could get their books where ever they feel they get the best price, whether that be through B&N, ebay, or where ever.
After all, isn't this business all about helping the little guy rise above and be successful? At least give 'em a break and let them use some common sense about how to purchases the tools.
Ending the tools controversy could be done so easily, but there is too much money to be made to try to end it.
Michael,
Why don't you simply list the steps necessary for being Eagle and the steps needed to be recognized as CORE. That way some of use who aren't as familiar with LOSes other than BWW can be set straight. Then we, too, will be able to see the vast differences between them. Thanks.
inquiringmind,
1. Network TwentyOne in the US has downloadable MP3s. However, most people still do not have MP3 players (a pew internet survey last year reported 11% of Americans had one), and many still struggle with using them. What's more you can't lend an MP3 to someone who doesn't have an MP3 player, lending a CD is far easier. Yes, you could burn, but then you have an unprofessional looking CD, and the requirement of IBOs needing a CD burner and knowing how to use it. MP3s time as the #1 option is coming, but it's a few years away yet.
2. Network TwentyOne has exactly what you suggest - a list of recommended books available. You can buy them wherever you want, but every time I've ever checked the price was better from N21.
Did any pro-system person address why Communikate suddenly became one of the core steps when Amvox wasn't?
Voicemail is not part of core in N21, but having worked in markets where it's not available I think it probably should be! Makes an enormous difference.
Insider ""Traditional" Sales and training legend Brian Tracy says he doesn't know of a single top salesperson that doesn't read every day and listen to a tape/cd everyday. "Core" in Amway/Quixtar world has developed from standard sales success. It doesn't mean listening to a tape of Paris Hilton and reading a Manga book everyday. If you are choosing to be "core" with tools supplied outside your system, how does your upline know whether it's actually relevant or of any quality?"
Joe> Home come IBOs aren't taught to sell products? Seems like CORE is more like an assurance of upline profits and has little to do with an IBOs success. If not, upline would have parameters of when someone should
consider getting involved and to what extent. Not to mention so few IBOs are successful so the validity of these tools are also questionable.
Rara, KATE is probably a CORE step
because I think Brad said his diamond made $20K per month off KATE whereas Amway got the profit for Amvox. Does that explain it? It certainly goes in line with CORE steps being used as profit centers for upline.
I agree that it can be quite useful. But when Amvox, no IBO profited from, was the voicemail service in use, it wasn't a core step. So why is Communikate, which bigger pins profit from, now a core step? If I'm not mistaken, I think you got PV/BV from Amvox, but not from Communikate. Seems fishy, doesn't it?
insider,
It seems that N21 is more modern than I realized. In order to simply share info with a prospect, sure have some CD's available to give out, but with the volumes of CDs/tapes that IBOs are buying (just check Ebay)information to download would be an easy way to go if trying to help the IBO get closer to his or her profit. You could even have a small snippet telling what is special about each speaker, what angle they take, whatever. You could even, if you felt you had to, charge a nominal fee.
This could also open doors for people other than Quixtar to take advantage of motivational speakers. If you are an IBO you get the download for free or asmall fee. If not an IBO, you pay a higher price.
The arguement that most IBO's don't own an MG3 player doesn't hold water. If asked to buy one in order to have access to the valuable tools info, they'd buy one in a minute. AND an MP3 player costs less than the an eSpring machine. Put a book on the reading list that explains how to use the MP3. Isn't Quixtar all about being up to speed with technology and the use of the computer?
One last question. How exactly is KATE valuable? As far as I can see, it's a fancy answering machine, and I can't get my inlaws to give me an answer beyond, "It takes care of all my business, my voice mails, my faxes, etc."
I truly am curious, because if it is simply voice mail, well, I pay for voicemail. I don't see anything wrong with just getting voice mail from another source, as long as it isn't vastly more expensive.
Insider,
No there is no incentive to have a profitable business for their downline. Sure it would be nice if they stuck around but as long as others are signing up to replace those that quit it doesn't really matter to them.
I also cannot believe that you have to ask me about the difference between building a big group and a profitable group. If you really think those two go hand in hand everytime then your head is deeper in the sand then I thought.
Michael,
Yes you are dancing around it. You refuse to accept that the 9 CORE steps are a part of the Eagle program.
So yes let's make this simple, answer this question:
Can you have an Eagle structure in your group and not be doing the 9 CORE steps and still get recognized as a qualified Eagle. If the answer is no then you cannot be trying to seperate the two.
MP3s just isn't quite there as a mainstream technology. Remember, CDs are supposed to be used more for loaning out to prospects and new IBOS than just for listening to by yourself. You can't very well expect all prospects to have or buy an MP3 player to hear about your business! I believe what you are talking about is the way of the future, but the market isn't quite there for it yet.
Now, we don't have communikate where I am, we have something else, but I just find the voice communication far more "powerful". Emails are great for exchanging information, but when you have more "emotional" types of issues, it's not there. When you need a bit of motivating, or you want to complain about something, or report things go wrong or whatever, email just doesn't have it. What's more I find that I'm willing to be more honest about those kind of things on a voicemail recording than on either a person-person call or in real life. If I want to whinge and complain, or indeed if my downline wants to whinge and complain to me, I find it much easier to do and handle on voicemail. You don't have the instant-response types of issues of realtime, but yet you can still convey emotional issues which you can't via email. I found this out through experience of moving to another market where voicemail wasn't offered. I thought we could get by with email and realtime. I eventually signed up back in my home market and use it internationally.
As far as Kate goes, I think it was really useful for sending down messages to a whole group. However, I find that for the few messages that actually contained important information, email would work just as well and would probably be much better. I mean, really, does anyone else relay important info to a large group by phone messages?
I think the main reason for Kate is to have one more way of keeping everyone motivated. When I was in, most of the messages were people saying how awesome the most recent meeting was (serious IBOs were expected to leave messages about how AWESOME the meeting and the speaker was and how FIRED UP!!! everyone was).
We also heard messages about how awesome the upline was, how people were able to contact others while going about their daily duties. We also got messages from upline diamonds about how awesome their vacations were. (Those were especially annoying.) And some messages could go on for over 5 minutes! If I didn't check my messages for a few days, by the time I came back, I would have 30 messages, if I was lucky, or even 50 or more. And each message was generally at least 90 seconds long. And my sponsor said he didn't even forward all the messages he got!
Furthermore, if my sponsor didn't check his messages everyday, chances are we wouldn't get them on time. Email would be better in this regard.
So basically, the messages were pretty much useless, IMO. Communikate was generally a waste of time because it sometimes took an hour to listen to all these messages. An hour out of the already limited time plan showing core IBOs had available. Towards the end, I pretty much started letting my messages accumulate and when I did listen to them, I would just listen to the first 5 seconds and then delete them. Listening to communikate messages was probably the most painful part of the business for me. Moreso than listening to CDs.
I guess it could be useful for receiving faxes (I don't think I ever received any business-related faxes, though) and convenient for people who wanted to fax you documents because it was a toll-free number.
We also had occasional conference calls using Communikate (those cost extra on top of the monthly fee).
I think that for some regular businesses, Communikate might be a good idea, but for most IBOs, it's probably overkill.
As far as being core and being an eagle, what I remember is that in BWW, the core steps were the very minimum and that eagle steps built upon the core steps. Anyone that has an Eagle brochure can confirm that. You can't be eagle without being core. I'll see if I can find an eagle brochure.
Insider wrote:
Drew,
The purpose of being core is not to be core.
---------------------------------
Yeah.. Am I the only one confused here?
Ah-ha! So the truth about Kate finally is revealed! It's not about true business matters, it's about a daily indoctrination of the "Quixtar is the only way, never give up" mentality.
I kinda wondered what kind of faxes they were getting.
Drew,
9 Core steps:
1. STP
2. Personal Use
3. Retail
4. Tapes/CD's
5. Books
6. Functions
7. Be Teachable
8. Be Accountable
9. Communikate
World Wide Dream Builders - Eagle Club
QUALIFICATIONS:
Signed counsel sheet to upline Diamond
300 PV personal use and retail, 200 PV for singles for the qualifying month.
Width numbers of 6 / 5 / 3 (PB/SO/MF)
6 legs at 100 PV or higher
5 legs on Standing Order
3 legs attending Major Functions
*This is actually outdated now since we've also included the Premier membership to the Eagle Qualifications. But for the sake of simplicity, I'll refer to the old version.
So Drew, again, if you are not on Standing order, you don't qualify for the Eagle section if that's what you are shooting for. However as I've pointed out, it's completely different from the 9 core steps.
IMHO, I think Kate should be the bare minimum, because you can use your communikate number on any advertising or business cards. It's also more convenient to listen to several up to date messages than to listen to a tape or CD. I'd tell my upline to get rid of the tapes CD's functions because to me its better to listen to my kate messages. I can choose to listen to what messages I want to. It's also useful for calling long distance and not putting those charges on my phone bill. The conferencing feature is very nice too.
Former IBO - it's like the purpose of having car is not to have a car - it's to have a vehicle you can use to get places, not just to have it look pretty in the driveway. Core isn't really a goal, it's a strategy. Recognizing core is like getting a gold star for good attendance at school. It's a means, not an end.
Drew - I inquired as to the "HUGE" difference. In general a bigger business is a more profitable business. But let's please clarify something -
You believe that uplines are primarily interested in making profit from tools, yet you don't think they have any incentive to have their downline build profitable businesses even though that would self evidently help increase their tool profit?
A weird world you live in.
Michael,
This is really getting old quick. I know you want to dance around this issue and do whatever you can to seperate the two but it is not going to work. So I am just going to continue to ask these questions until I see these straight answers you have claimed to give me.
Going off of the qualifications you listed above answer these questions:
1. Do you qualify Eagle if you don't show the plan three times a week?
2. Do you qualify Eagle if you are not on Communikate?
3. Do you qualify Eagle if you don't go to the major functions but you still have 3 legs attending?
I could go on but the point will remain that if you answer No to any of those questions the 9 CORE steps are not seperate from Eagle. You don't list any of the tasks I have in the above questions as part of your Eagle qualification, but they are very much a part of the CORE qualifications.
As usual I think Rara said it best:
"You can't be eagle without being core."
For some reason you don't want to just admit this and you have decided to dance around the issue trying to seperate something that clearly goes together.
I am starting to understand why I never heard back from you about coming on the podcast, you seem to be having a hard time in writing answering questions, answering them live would be a disaster.
"You believe that uplines are primarily interested in making profit from tools, yet you don't think they have any incentive to have their downline build profitable businesses even though that would self evidently help increase their tool profit?"
Well first of all you still are struggling thinking that a big business must mean profitable. I think it was John Crowe who once said his son-in-law had 200 people in his group and was making $200 a month.
But let me guess you are going to chalk that up to an isolated incident like you do everytime your ridiculous statements get debunked?
But let's play your game for a minute and say that the 9 CORE steps were designed to help build profitable businesses downline. We can just for now ignore the clear fact that every product upline makes money from just happens to be a required step for success.
If it's designed to help build a profitable business then the design flat out sucks. With a vast majority of IBOs losing money this plan seems like a big failure. But yet it keeps on getting preached as the way to go and from stage Diamonds are very adament about not doing anything else but this, and the only time it seems to change is when a new tool that makes money for the upline gets added.
Yeah if this plan is designed to build profitable businesses I think someone may need to take a second look at this. Because when you compare how it does to generating money for upline compared to how it does for building a profitable business one result is clearly more successful then the other, and it's not the profitable business result.
So sure a Diamond can benefit by having some of it's downline be profitable, I mean after all they need to get to Diamond for the tool money, but as far as having a real incentive to have a profitable downline....Nah! For each one that quits another signs up and keeps the money flowing.
But what do I know those are just the facts right?
BTW, I am not the one who lives in a world where if I didn't see it or hear it personally then it just couldn't have happened or be that way. So I suppose this world I like to call Reality would seem a little weird to you.
Drew,
You're right, this is getting old REAL fast.
I've answered your questions, and you choose to ignor my responses.
Again I'll answer yours directly,
1. Do you qualify Eagle if you don't show the plan three times a week?
From the qualifications I listed above, YES!
2. Do you qualify Eagle if you are not on Communikate?
From the qualifications I listed above, YES!
3. Do you qualify Eagle if you don't go to the major functions but you still have 3 legs attending?
From the qualifications I listed above, YES!
You're somehow trying to twist this around but it's really cut and dry.
There is no "CORE" section at the functions.
Seeing as how you can't seem to have a decent conversation with IBO's or can treat IBO's with any respect, I don't see how I would be a "welcomed" guest on your podcast.
Until you can answer my very basic questions, this is a complete waste of my time.
A BS material producing diamond who gains from his downline being core has an incentive in their downline being large but unprofitable for the following reasons:
1) A profitable IBO has a lesser dependence on the BS material for motivation (profit motivates better than anything else)
2) The more time an IBO remains unprofitable, the more money flows upline.
3) A profitable IBO is more likely to become a diamond him/herself and compete with (and diminish the profits of) existing diamonds in a group. Law of diminishing returns...
Drew,
We do things a bit differently at WWDB than BWW. I think that's where our communication breakdown is.
We have a very different Eagle packet than you did.
Our 5 steps to diamond are as follows:
1)CORE
2)Eagle
3)Double Eagle
4)River Rendevous-(Ron Puryear's house)
5)Diamond
You may have a "core" recogition through bww, but wwdb doesn't. To me "core" just differentiates a person from being a prosumer or a business builder. That's it.
Drew, I'm getting real tired of your comments like -
I am not the one who lives in a world where if I didn't see it or hear it personally then it just couldn't have happened or be that way.
Can you point to just one single place where I have said that if I didn't experience it, it means it doesn't happen. Find one. I challenge you. Resorting to ad hominem attacks based on lies is pretty pathetic.
balaji -
Re 1. You don't understand much about motivation. Profit does not motivate above all else. If you have any backing at all for the claim, please provide it. Aside from that why do you think BSM is only about motivation? The books, a major part of BSM, are rarely about motivation. Tapes and seminars have techniques, product knowledge, prospecting materials etc etc etc. Motivation is just one part of BSM.
Re 2. You don't understand the business plan.
Re 3. You definitely don't understand the business plan.
Michael,
So in WWDB you can be considered an Eagle and you don't even have to show plans? You don't even have to attend functions? But you have to buy tapes?
WOW! That is some Eagle program. So is WWDB saying that you really don't need to go to functions or show plans to be successful? Because I thought Eagle was the program to help you be on your way to having a successful group.
As far as a podcast goes Michael you apparently will never know. You don't seem to mind coming on blogs and taking time to comment, but a chance to show a critic wrong on his own podcast and you all of the sudden don't have the time, etc.
I could give a rip if you come on or not, I just find your logic interesting and it seems you don't want to be asked any questions in real time. Don't fret though Michael you aren't the first or the last.
Please Insider you have been getting tagged with that ever since I have been on the forums. Anyone who wishes to go on over and read the archives can see for themselves.
Interesting that the only thing you found to respond to was that. Either I am really getting to you, or you just don't have any answers.
However, most people still do not have MP3 players (a pew internet survey last year reported 11% of Americans had one), and many still struggle with using them.
You don't need an MP3 player. You just need a computer. And since we're running e-commerce businessses in the 21st century, it's not too much to ask to have a computer, right?
And a cheap sub-$100 MP3 player is also not too much to ask, and is certainly less than system costs over time.
Struggle with using them? Who is saying IBOs are idiots now? Hey, here's an idea: how about an MP3 file that teaches MP3 player fundamentals? You can even sell the same MP3 player through the LOS for uniformity (just don't charge twice its MSRP).
What's more you can't lend an MP3 to someone who doesn't have an MP3 player,
It's called e-mail, honey. I assume that people running "e-commerce" businesses can do that.
lending a CD is far easier. Yes, you could burn, but then you have an unprofessional looking CD, and the requirement of IBOs needing a CD burner and knowing how to use it.
Once again, CD burners have been standard fare on computers for many years now. And burning an MP3 isn't rocket science; it's a basic drag-and-drop operation in Windows and Mac. If you find it to be so bloody complicated, release a training MP3.
Lame, lame, lame excuses.
MP3s just isn't quite there as a mainstream technology.
Have you been stuck in 2001? Welcome to the present.
You can't very well expect all prospects to have or buy an MP3 player to hear about your business!
You. Don't. Need. An. MP3. Player. That's like saying every prospect needs a Walkman to listen to your CD.
What a weird world you live in.
LoL I laugh @ some of the "Negative" post I see on these blogs! Former IBO's who hasn't profitted from the business(sort of like a disgruntled employee!) Everyone has something 2 say about a Corporation that does BILLIONS! lol, some of u guys crack me up (there are over 40 to 60 thousand IBO's in the BWW System! Wake the hell up! 30thousand people just went Platinum in the U.S!! 50-70 thousand dollars a year for the rest of their lives/30 thousand people! Get ur facts right, maybe it DIDNT WORK 4 YOU! Maybe u werent CORE lol. Come around my team, 4000pv level 4 myself. I'll be platinum by MARCH CREEP! My income will jump 30 to 40 thousand dollars! But truthfully we dont care what u PESSIMIST think (why because as we speak somebody is shopping on our websites/registering 2 become an IBO.) Understand this whether u like it or not another 50,000 people will register 2 become an IBO This Fiscal Year.
PS:Why dont some of u guys use ur Real Names so I can "GOOGLE" you! If u looked hard enough u can find something NEGATIVE on ur grandmoms! (This dude said he googled someone,get a life fam 4real)
L8ter Lames/LoL Im laughing @ ya'll
Its Done,
Boy, was that an intelligent, well-worded post. You have my deepest respect.
I'll be the first to say that people CAN make money through the LOSes. I just don't agree with the ethics of "the Biz."
BTW, why didn't you use your real name?
LOL! Some of the IBOs who come and post here crack me up. Writing stuff on this blog as if we had never heard it before, being obvlivious to the fact that every new IBO who comes here says basically the same thing.
They come here and tell the critics the same things about how we didn't work hard enough and didn't do the 9 steps etc, only for those who actually stick around to find out some of the hardest working IBOs are on this board as former IBOs.
Oh and let's not forget the exaggerated claims they make that they cannot back up with any kind of real hard data, and the important facts they leave out as well. Like 30 thousand going Platinum and making 50-70 thousand for the rest of their lives. What was not told to you is that a majority of them will fall out of qualification and will not be making 50-70 thousand a year for the rest of their lives.
Let's also not forget how some tell us their current pin levels and then tell us what pin level they are going to be next March etc. What they don't tell you is that they will be saying the same thing two years from now.
What I laughed the most about with our newest IBO to comment is that he wants real names used and doesn't use a real name himself. Well for the record every author on this board uses his real name and can be seen on the About page of this blog. What is interesting is that it's the IBOs and supporters that want to remain hidden on the internet. HMMM, I wonder who has something to hide.
30 thousand people going platinum this year and making $50-70 thousand per year?
I don't think so dude ....
Hard enough dealing with the critic BS without having to deal with IBO BS as well :-/
Im Core too..but ive never been to a big function =p. And ive been trying to find a way to get out of the stupid SoT cuz seriously, i havent listened to any of them at all. But you do need to be core to make the business work, its just that sometimes..theres small expenses that i dont really see as needed
Christian,
I really don't consider myself 100% core. I haven't been to a major function since 2003, nor have I been on SOT for 13 months now. I've just taken from this business what works and left everything else behind.
That's one of the reasons I find it a bit rediculous that Drew has to argue with me. I agree with him much more than he realizes, yet he has a hard time figuring that one out.
Also, I am answering these posts in "real time" too, it's not scripted by my upline as much as Drew would like to think. If he does think that, THANK YOU! Because that means I am doing my job as an upline.
Going on a podcast would be a waste of time because
A) I've done my own podcast before and I absolutely HATE how my voice sounds on a recorded message, I gave up on podcasting because it just not my voice that I hear.
B)I also have a big serious phobia about public speaking. I am afraid to death of it. He can't understand that and doesn't seem to care if someone has that phobia.
C) I agree with Drew about alot of things, as an IBO I just can't voice my opinion publicly as much as I'd like to...
Christian,
You seem to be proof that if you like the products and have some decent common sense, you can make a profit with Quixtar. Yet, I'm curious. You say you need to be CORE to make the business work, but you haven't gone to a big function yet, and you'd would like to get off the SOT. In doing so, you would no longer be CORE, but you'd still be doing well with the business. Do you still agree with your comment regarding the necessity of being CORE?
Also, are you reading daily from the BOM? Are you on Kate? You don't seem to be the type that would be into the daily motivational pep talks that Kate offers.
You know I have been reading all this talk about these buisness and if you think about all buisnesses are like this. First of all if you expect to make a profit without spending money you will be wrong and when you buy these books or tapes form you upline or even from a partner store you make points, credits, or money back. when they say "Show the plan" it is like an advertisment in a newspaper or an commercial on T.V. The steps of CORE are like a guide lines of selling the products. I know many buissnesses that use simialar styles like in selling houses or cars. You all have really drove off the track of what Core is it is a guideline to help you succeed not something like a step of rules or laws that if you dont follow them you will lose your buisness or be band from conventions.
So I leave you with some things to think about....
Do you belong to this buisness and are you trying to succeed.
And if your not part of this why are you trying to tell everyone that it dont work.
And have you even tried it or are you just going of what you have read from people that have written blogs or have told stories.
Anyway that is my view feel fre to reply.
@INQ
Well, the reason i havent been to a big function is cuz i dont have a visa -_- (and my parents wont let me get one). Id say im core. I do everything including the kate. Its just that i dont see the benefit of the SOT. Only time ive heard of BOM is in this forums, but i read Maxwells books and really like his cd. IBO or not, what he says is rather true
PS: Im getting the pudding next week ^.^. And why cant Q* Canada get the products that Q* US has? Seriously..
"So I leave you with some things to think about....
Do you belong to this buisness and are you trying to succeed.
And if your not part of this why are you trying to tell everyone that it dont work.
And have you even tried it or are you just going of what you have read from people that have written blogs or have told stories.
1. No I do not belong to this business anymore, I busted my tail for over a year and only saw my financial situation damper for it.
2. Again I was a part of it, and I am telling those who come here the things that many IBOs won't tell them when they sit down to tell them about the business.
3. Once again, yes I did try it and never saw a site or blog till I was already in for some time.
I can never understand why anyone would be against sites that take critical looks at an opportunity like this. Why is there this want for silence about clear abuses that are happening?
Why is it the "critics" who seem to be more open and transparent then those who are claiming to support Quixtar. They hide behind alias names (until Qblog outs them) and try to put together little groups, or in Quixtar's case big groups to try and Google Bomb to get critical sites out of public view.
I can never understand why not just put it all out there, good and bad, and let people make up their minds for themselves.
Michael,
If you think you are answering questions on a blog as real time then I question if you have any idea what I am talking about when making that reference. Also how would having your upline script your answers be considered you doing your job as an upline? It is your job to have your upline tell you what you can say?
A) So that's a good reason to not do your own, but you are telling me that the sound of your voice somehow affects the message others would hear?
B) You have never told me this, and had told me at one point you were going to come on. So don't sit here and tell others I don't care about your phobia when you have never relayed such information to me.
C) Some independent business you have there when you can't voice your own opinion. Guess IBOs aren't quite independent as they like to think.
(Goes into adult mode =p)
Well, i for one isnt against the critic sites, specially this one cuz this is rather open..and most of the critics actually knows what their talking about instead of just the usual crap -_-. I tell my prospects everything thats needed, the good and bad, and what to expect from the corporation and what they expect from me. If they ask what exactly is this? I could say viral marketing, ecommerce, network marketing, etc. Im not going to say this isnt any of those O_o. But ill always tell them that there IS money in word of mouth, as i do like the products and my approach tend to be product-oriented.
(Teen mode ^.^)
Are drug users allowed to do this biz? I have someone thats a real pothead, done acid with her couple times, but shes rreeaalllyy hard working and open-minded. Im afraid that if she does get into this, she might find herself out of place with all the suits and stuff. Plus, shed be asked to dye her hair back to its natural color (right now its green..lol)
Oh, much like my parents, my uplines dont know i smoke, drink and do drugs -_-
Drew,
C'mon, are you being serious here or not? That isn't what I said and you know it. I am taking that comment of YOURS that you think I am "scripted" by my upline as a huge compliment. We'll leave it at that. You can draw your own conclusions how ever you want to.
Bottom line. CORE is a program designed to help you make it to platinum and then onto diamond.
Quixtar's numbers suggest 1 in 240 go platinum and 1 in 14,000 go diamond.
Does CORE work? I'd say there must be a better way. But I would guess that CORE helps to ensure that upline makes money on tools.
Well JoeCool18, if 1 in 240 go Platinum, and Core is away to go platinum, how many people are Core for the time it takes to go Platinum?
How many people are Core for 12 months?
How many people are Core for 24 months?
The plan commonly says 2-5 years to Diamond
How many people are Core for 2 years?
How many people are Core for 5 years?
Find out those numbers and then compare them to the 1 in 240 and 1 in 14,000.
insider/ibbfightback,
I don't care how many are CORE for 12 months or whatever. I don't promote CORE as being the key to your financial success.
Most LOS probably tell prospects that they can be financially free if only they will be CORE for XX number of months/years. They NEVER mention that for whatever reason, the vast majority of those who try to be CORE, are never able to stay CORE. It's almost impossible.
Why don't I promote a fool proof system to win the lottery. Simply buy 100 lottery tickets each week and you will hit it big. What? You went broke and never won the lottery? Well that's because you quit before you bought the winning ticket. If you kept buying 100 lottery tickets each week, sooner or later you will make it. Now that you quit, you're just bitter and want to speak badly about lotteries.
Actually, I think IBOFightback 's idea of showing the ratio
CORE for 2 years: platinum and
CORE for 5 years: diamonds
would be quite telling.
I don't doubt that being CORE consistently can lead to more success than non CORE. Problem is two things:
1. Upline profits from CORE IBOs therefore they have a motivation to promote CORE regardless of IBO success.
2. Remaining CORE consistently is almost impossible. According to my upline and what I have heard from others - you miss one step and your business goes backwards 6-12 months.
Oops, got sick and could not STP for 1 week = failure (for example)
C-O-R-E:
(C) consistently (O) overpaying for (R) redundant (E) excrement: CORE
It's hard, but it's not impossible and anyone can do it with determination.
But why would you think developing a business bringing in 6 figures in only a few years would be easy?
Insider, all due respect, that's where the fallacy lies. Not "anyone" can do it with determination. Let's be realistic. Diamonds generally are somewhat charismatic, speak well, and are quite convincing. Granted certain people can learn some of these skills, but to say "anyone" can do it with determination is false.
Some people simply cannot speak to large groups, lead other leaders and have conviction when they speak.
These are things I developed when I was growing up, always being a leader, etc. which is why I felt I was able to build a near platinum business in less than a year.
BTW, I noticed also that most IBOs
who made it to diamond (from my experience) were able to build a platinum business in 12 months or less. So if you cannot do that, your odds of going diamond are greatly diminished, IMHO.
>Not "anyone" can do it with determination. Let's be realistic. Diamonds generally are somewhat charismatic, speak well, and are quite convincing. Granted certain people can learn some of these skills, but to say "anyone" can do it with determination is false.
I agree with your realistic attitude. Unfortunately, this attitiude seems to be unacceptable to most "dreaming" ibos. The more they struggle and sacrifice, the more their dream means to them, and the more determined they are to NEVER EVER QUIT. That's the scary, cult-like side of the MOs.
Michael,
Why do you leave others to draw conclusions instead of just lay it out there? Is this a common practice among IBOs? I still don't understand why you think it is a compliment to be a scripted repeating machine of your upline. Very confusing why anyone would be proud of being a parrot.
So much negative -_- ..some of you guys need to chill or something (passes doobie) =p. But seriously though, not a lot of people can even stay core for a month..let alone 1 year. Most of the time, they dont give themselves a break. I do mine like a job (..how irnoic). 4-5 days business..3-2 days for myself ^.^ ..anyone bugs me about business in my myself day, i tell them to go upline or send a kate =)
Drew,
Bottomline, who is Core 100% of the time? I am not, nor have I ever been core 100% of the time. If we were core 100%, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we? (I am sure that is the kind of response you were expecting, Drew). Drew, however I will agree with you that Core does need to be shortened to just 4 or even 5 steps to make it still work. Think Basics of MLM.
I also really disagree with Joecool's response that odds of 1 in 90 million is much better than 1 in 240 or even 1 in 14,000. You might have somewhat better odds investing in real estate or stocks, but in a lotto ticket? Get serious.
Christian LOL I have to agree with you!
People need to just "chill". Take from this business what works, and leave the rest. How hard is that? Not very difficult. Who cares what your upline begs you to do? Just do what you need to do to get done. If you can understand that...
...my crossline is beating me -_-...damnit
JoeCool18,
Things like "charisma" and the ability to speak in front of crowds are all skills that can be taught. Some have more natural talent then others, but virtually anyone can be taught these skills. I've seen the development again and again. I know of one Founder's Crown Ambassador who, when he started, wouldn't even answer the phone if his wife wasn't home. Now he speaks in front of tens of thousands. I've seen people go from 3%ers stuttering their name and occupation on stage in their native language to being Diamonds speaking in foreign lands in a foreign language.
Diamonds have those skills because they learned them. Very few started with them. Diamonds are made, not born.
This is not meant to be a slam, even though it may sound like it. Quixtar's MOs have found the niche: people who just want someone to believe in them.
wouldn't that be just about everyone?
"People need to just "chill". Take from this business what works, and leave the rest. How hard is that? Not very difficult. Who cares what your upline begs you to do? Just do what you need to do to get done. If you can understand that... "
Very Utopian though, However it dismisses one very important point. Unless you are an IBO living in a cave, you must realize that the majority of income in this business is derived from sources other than Am/Quix. I won;t wast your time documenting this information, do a google or look in this blog's archives. Fortunately I am one of those, as Dexter says, is not at the mercy of an IBO with a theory on this point because I have had the experience. As a "net loss" founder's ruby, 50% of our gross income came from tools. Still wasn't enough to cover expenses.
What Michael doesn't realize is that those upline, from whom he is deciding what to use and what not to use, hold the key to the majority of the income potential in this business. Who do you think they are going to want on stage earning those rediculous speaker fees; someone who has been picking and choosing or someone who has been "faithful"?
A "net loss" Ruby? Plus the same income again from tools?
And you weren't covering expenses?
I'd be fascinated to hear what your monthly expenses were.
Insider,
Yes, everyone DOES need someone to believe in them and validate what they are doing in life. Unfortunately, not everyone has that. I work in a very supportive and positive environment. I'm in a very healthy and positive marriage. For those people who aren't as blessed, they may crave the positive support and encouragement that Quixtar offers.
Just look at all the results of sin in this world. Quixtar definitely has a niche to fill.
Again, all evidence points to the undeniable truth that the kingpins are financially mugging their downline by using cult tactics to convince the downline they can be financially free & live the lavish lifestyles presented at FED etc. through a Quixtar business. Take away the tools money and the diamonds could not support their own businesses. Remember it is the kingpins who say that core is the means of success. Thus, if they had to provide this core without charging they would soon use up all of their Quixtar income. Also, all the lines they use - For example, "We eliminate the middleman." Why then does XS Energy sell their energy drinks to Logic Nutrition (a friend of Greg Duncan) who then sells it to Greg Duncan's Sarshela company who then sells it to Quixtar who then sells it to the IBOs who then sell it to their retail customers. How has that eliminated the middleman?
C'mon George, still waiting to hear how your Founder's Ruby business incurred more than $10,000/mth in expenses!
Does it really matter if the kingpins are taking in extra money? As long as i reach atleast 50k/year, i could care less.
George,
On a serious note...I would love to hear about all the expenses at the Platinum/Ruby level(s). Especially today, with no local inventory needed, much less travelling, inexpensive tools & the focus on retailing.
If your intent is to truly "save" us from what you went through...then, please tell us ALL of the necessary details.
Thanks,
Anon
Does it really matter if the kingpins are taking in extra money? As long as i reach atleast 50k/year, i could care less.
...and if you don't?
George,
I think if you are going to make a claim of expenses then you need to produce it. The same I would expect from any IBO making claims about income in the business. Although they seem to run and dodge when asked for such evidence as well.
@Drew
..and if i do? At my current pace (which is rather below) its possible in a year..max Summer 08. Ive seen some of my uplines from the middle to retire (ones retiring this month). Ive been with this guy, who was barely eagle, and is now above double. Im on my way up too..its too late to tell me (..if i dont) -_-. Tell that to the new guys
"C'mon George, still waiting to hear how your Founder's Ruby business incurred more than $10,000/mth in expenses!"
from: The Truth About Amway and Quixtar
REPLY:
WHERE did George even SAY his expenses were $10,000 per month? Is this another example of your 'extrapolated' earnings figures?
Willy,
"George" stated that he was a ""net loss" founder's ruby, 50% of our gross income came from tools. Still wasn't enough to cover expenses."
He didn't state his expenses were over $10k, but he's implying it here.
I am curious as to know just how recent that was or was it back in the 70's or 80's?
Willy,
"George" stated that he was a ""net loss" founder's ruby, 50% of our gross income came from tools. Still wasn't enough to cover expenses."
He didn't state his expenses were over $10k, but he's implying it here.
I am curious as to know just how recent that was or was it back in the 70's or 80's?
Posted by: Michael | November 28, 2006 4:15 PM
Q: HOW is $10,000 per month implied?
Christian> Does it really matter if the kingpins are taking in extra money? As long as i reach atleast 50k/year, i could care less.
Joe> Yes, it matters when these diamonds are teaching you "Christian values", saying quixtar saves marriages, saying they are honest and forthright people. If they are making that extra money by deceiving people, it is a problem, even if you don't think so.
Insider et al
You must be confusing my revenue/expense numbers with your own. I never said, nor did I imply that my expenses were in excess of $10M per month. Someone in your upline must have told you a founders ruby made $120M/year, so it must be true, and you've been repeating that to all of you prospects since then. I said as a founders ruby, our gross income was not sufficient to cover our expenses on an annual basis. I would remind you that income and cash flow are not interchangeable terms in accounting. A $300 car payment is a cash flow item. A vehicle that depreciates $20M in one year because it hase 75000 miles on it is an expense.
It is interesting to me that someone can make an income claim to you at a meeting, and it must be truth because an IBO said it. However when someone makes and expense claim, particularly a former IBO, it must be a lie designed to kill quixtar.
I did enjoy reading all of your posts. You all managed to spin the discussion away from the primary point of my post, which was: since the majority of the income potential of this business, regardless of how you spin it, what you emphasize, or what you care to pick and choose, comes from the tools. If you think you have the determination and the lack of integrity it takes to build to the diamond level, you have no choice but to swallow without question whatever your upline decides to put in your mouth, because the minute you spit it out, you have lost your opportunity to dip in the tool pool. Then the only income potential you have is selling a few boxes of soap, and becoming a function junkie.
Remember, I have the experience - you have a theory. Come talk to me when you go Founders Ruby.
@joecool
welp, thing is, im in it for the money and not wanting to work. Thats possible. As far as them getting extra money from the cds, so what? Its not like more than 50% of their money came from cds. I know couple people making atleast 100k and ive never heard a cd from them.
fyi: my parents and even my gf has said ive become a better person cuz of this business. Doesnt have to be "christian values" cuz i dont really care about those, i just became a better person.
Note: Shaw claims i should have a lot of bandwidth as im paying for the top option. Yet, its not as fast as it claims. Maybe i should be all negative about that too..then again..its above average
Hi Christian,
How do you know that couple is really making $100K? What's their pin level? And is the $100K only from the business?
Thanks.
"..and if i do? At my current pace (which is rather below) its possible in a year..max Summer 08"
Are you willing to be back by summer of '08 showing us your $50k a year? and then if you are not at 50k a year answer the question "and if you don't?"
"Its not like more than 50% of their money came from cds. I know couple people making atleast 100k and ive never heard a cd from them.
fyi: my parents and even my gf has said ive become a better person cuz of this business. Doesnt have to be "christian values" cuz i dont really care about those, i just became a better person."
Do you have any proof to back up the 50% statement? Just because they don't make a CD doesn't mean they don't get money from tools. My Ruby never made a tape but got tool bonus checks.
Just curious about this next part. I hear so many talk about how good of a person they become with this business, and your statement has especially got my attention since you say you don't care about Christian values.
What standard do you compare against to say you are a better person? What standard are you comparing against to say that someone is a better person and how do you directly give the business credit for it?
"It is interesting to me that someone can make an income claim to you at a meeting, and it must be truth because an IBO said it. However when someone makes and expense claim, particularly a former IBO, it must be a lie designed to kill quixtar."
So true, so very very true.
This is the conundrum. Are you becoming a better person by giving people self-confidence and improved self-esteem even if some of the things that you teach them aren't true? Is it OK to say, "These tools/functions/activities will definitely help you grow your business, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise," even if the person has a little to no chance of ever making it in the business, or they have been in for a considerable amount of time, but continue to lose money? That person may love what the books and tapes tell them, that they will succeed if they don't quit. The functions leave them feeling inspired and good about themselves. They may never make it, but they now feel needed, included and valued--at a cost, of course. Is that something a good person would do?
I'm not sure what the answer is.
Im just not religious..so i dont care. But whats what most people who knew me before i started out in this biz.
If im not making atleast 50k/yr by Summer 08, then i might as well quit -_- cuz i already have 7 legs, 3 are very active, and im adding 2 more (1 of which is really into it..meet her on the bus..i almost literally did a 1 on 1 on the bus.. lol)
Welp, how do you know they do make atleast 50% of their income from tools? You could just look at their pv and bv and figure out how much they make..plus the 10k bonus..and the 5k trip
"Im just not religious..so i dont care. But whats what most people who knew me before i started out in this biz."
So the standard you use to make this claim is just another person's opinion of your behavior, and you have nothing to really establish that this business has made you a better person?
"If im not making atleast 50k/yr by Summer 08, then i might as well quit -_- cuz i already have 7 legs, 3 are very active, and im adding 2 more (1 of which is really into it..meet her on the bus..i almost literally did a 1 on 1 on the bus.. lol)"
So does this mean you will be showing that to us sometime before or on the summer of '08 or not?
"Welp, how do you know they do make atleast 50% of their income from tools? You could just look at their pv and bv and figure out how much they make..plus the 10k bonus..and the 5k trip"
I can just as easily look at the numbers of folks who buy tools in groups, or watch the Dateline episode where an IBO was talking about 75% and come to another conclusion. The problem here however is that you made a statement that says they don't and I am asking you for your evidence to back up this statement, or would you rather just admit you have no idea?
Welp, only evidence i have is 2 of my uplines going past 50k/year and stuff. So, ill just say i have no idea(with dateline and all that stuff) except the living proof (which is those 2 uplines).
In the end, results prove otherwise.
Sure, Summer 08. If i dont reach that mark, i quit. But then again, at my current pace, ill reach it. How about yourself? Whats your problem with the business? That you think that everyone making atleast 100k is making most of their money off tools? If so..prove it before you try and corner me -_-
Fyi: Only tools ive bought for a month is that stupid SOT. Yet im at a profit (as i only have 3 expenses, site, kate, bizinator). I doubt bus pass is an expense >.
George, according to thisbiznow.com the average Q-12 platinum grosses just under $4000/mth from Quixtar. I don't think it is a stretch to think a Founder's Ruby would make $5000/mth. You then said you made about the same from tools - so that means gross income of $10000/mth. You then said "Still wasn't enough to cover expenses."
Which means your expenses were more than $10,000/mth.
Not spinning anything, nothing from my upline, nothing from a tape or a seminar. Just officially reported data and your own statements.
So George, I'm still interested in hearing about your $10,000 worth of expenses every month. Deprecating a Bentley or two were we? Please, let us in on your little secrets to thwart the IRS.
Why should George share information about his personal expenses? It's not anymore relevand that insider revealing his amquix income on this board.
He explictly made the claim. Seemed a bit odd to me, so I'm asking for some details. If he wants to say "none of your business" well I'll just have to accept that won't I? :-)
"He explictly made the claim. Seemed a bit odd to me, so I'm asking for some details. If he wants to say "none of your business" well I'll just have to accept that won't I? :-)"
Well at least you are willing to accept the same tactics you practice. Of course on top of just leaving, acting stupid, or just flat out ignoring points just to name some other common tactics of yours.
how many times does the guy have to say his expenses were not $10k per month;
how many pv do you need to be a ruby?
suppose he was in the bottom 10% of that group? What is the median? How many people are you talking about
you are assuming that he made the average income of a Q-12 ruby
THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY Q-12 ANYTHINGs to extrapolate his income.
just more bs
Requirement for Founders Ruby is 15,000 PV per month. For 12 months. Hence, the title "Founders".
Since the ratio of BV to PV is approximately 2.5 to 1, his BV would have been approximately 45,000 (at the MINIMUM required level of 15,000 PV).
He would have been at the top of the Bonus Payment Schedule, which is 25% of his BV. So, at 45,000 BV, he would have been getting minimum monthly bonus checks of $11,500.00. Not including any "side" PV or retail profit, or additional bonus checks. No tool income. Just money based on PV/BV.
Now, a couple of things to consider:
1. He had to turn around and payout bonus checks to all of his downline. That varies. Perhaps one of his downline was at 11,000 PV. In that case, most of his check would've gone downline. If the PV was nicely spread out between many downline, he would have a much nicer bonus check to keep.
2. We don't know the timeframe of when he built his business (70's, 80's, 90's, today) and we don't know how it was structured (lots of retail?, many legs or just a couple of strong ones?, etc.)
There are many things to consider. However, if one hits the MINIMUM Ruby level of 15,000 PV with multiple legs, they will make some good 'ching'. On a part time basis. No tool money yet either.
George, I REALLY want to know! WHAT were your expenses? Did your income look at all like what I laid out?
If you really want to "help" us, then you'd be forthright with what your financial situation was. I'm not asking for your last name or SSN. Just some truthful numbers.
You see, I've seen alot of written stories & claims but have seen NOTHING to really make me want to quit. I've really not seen anything "unethical" or questionable. All I'm asking for is PROOF so that I can make a fully informed decision....should I decide to quit & pursue something else.
Inquiring Mind:
I don't think it's ever ok to lead someone on. If they don't have what it takes or they need to change some things....then it's the upline's job to tell them exactly what they need to do. The rest is up to the downline. If they're not willing to change to get what they (think) they want...well then...it's not going to work for them, will it?
If they're losing money....they're doing something wrong.
In MY experience....our downline have not been WILLING to do what it takes. For example, go retailing with me (biz to biz) for one hour a week. Not willing! Can you believe it? Oh well. C'est la vie. That's who they're talking about when they talk about the "masses" or the 98%'ers.
Anon
Insider said:
George, according to thisbiznow.com the average Q-12 platinum grosses just under $4000/mth from Quixtar. I don't think it is a stretch to think a Founder's Ruby would make $5000/mth.
endquote
One cannot draw such conclusions from just the average numbers. We also need the exact distribution.
If Q* income was "normally distributed" like e.g., humans' height, then the above inference may be valid.
But for the population in a pyramid (not used in a derogatory sense here) where the bulk of the population is at or near the bottom, most of the people will be making less than the average unless higher pins make lesser income.
anon, Ruby qualification requires volume outside of any 25% qualifying legs, thus the maximum any individual leg could have had to contribute to him being Q-12 Ruby would be 7499PV.
From my calculations it's theoretically possible to be a Q-12 Ruby and earning as little as $2533/mth, but you'd really have to go out of your way to do it, with two legs each qualifying at 7499PV each month.
Mind you, it does seem many of the "experienced" whiners seem to have incredibly poorly structured businesses, so lets be generous and assume that's the case for George.
So George, tool income included, not making money means more than $5000/mth in expenses, every month. Don't suppose you want to enlighten us on how you racked up such a great amount? Tape player chewing up tapes was it? Kept leaving your CDs in the sun?
Balaji, your point is valid, however averages for particular levels in the business are for more "normal" than for example the average of an active IBO, which is horribly skewed by the vast majority doing little and earning little.
Q-12 platinum incomes are substantially normalized because those at the extremes will either fall out of qualification, and thus not be considered in the calculations, or move into a higher qualification bracket. Of the "average" incomes that are occasionally published by quixtar, the ones that are likely to be least normal are the average income for an active IBO and the average income for an EDC and above, as neither have these factors limiting at least one extreme.
"In MY experience....our downline have not been WILLING to do what it takes."
Therein lies the problem with Quixtar. If it is so difficult that none of your downline are willing to do what it takes to be successful, doesn't that say more about Quixtar than it does about your downline? Perhaps the return on (What it takes) is simply better with other businesses.
Look at the bright side. You won't have to deal with very many of those lazy downline, since 90% of Amway/Quixtar businesses are out of business by year 4.
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2004/11/ninety-percent-solution.html
oh kendall, kendall, kendall ...
Quoting lawblawg are we? Very first paragraph on the link we gave we find mr lawdawg spreading false information. You may want to read -
MYTH: No growth in IBOs in 30 years
And then he goes on to quote an SBA study which only looked at businesses with employees! Please .... pick some better reference next time Kendall.
In any case, why do you think building a Quixtar business is supposed to be something really easy?
You might be interested in learning What is an Amway or Quixtar business worth. What on earth made you think that earning the equivalent of $14,000/mth after tax over 10 years (ie, spending ten years to build an emeraldship) would be easy?
If you can provide a better way, please share it.
Kendall,
Didn't read the entire comment, eh? Picking & choosing what you will comment back on???
Kendall, go back & read the entire quote...VERBATIM. What that means is: WORD FOR WORD.
Here's what you consider so 'difficult': spending ONE HOUR a week retailing. Or, showing the business plan to ONE NEW PERSON a week. Could be over breakfast, coffee, lunch, afternoon snack, dinner, dessert, evening, late evening, Sunday brunch, whatever. Shouldn't take more than an hour.
We're loaning them tools. And marketing materials. And products (for samples).
That's it.
You're telling me THAT'S too difficult???
That's pretty "telling" of why it didn't "work out" for you either...
Anon
Insider,
Thanks for the catch. I thought I was pretty thorough but missed the 7500 PV breakoff point from the downline's perspective.
My point still holds. One can make well over $5000 a month at the Ruby level if structured according to what is taught (at least in WWDB).
What one does with that money is NOT the responsibility of the business nor the upline. It's the responsibility of the IBO making that money. They need to be wise with it. If not, they will go broke.
Anon
Anon, not only can one gross $5000/mth from AQ as a Ruby, I think it would be a very unusual Founders Ruby that didn't.
Insider and Anon,
I want to encourage you. Try not to spend so much time on this forum. Instead, make your way to diamond in 2-5 years. I am being genuine here. Go and show the plan; prospect the waitress and the cashier at the grocery store. Keep your mind concentrated on the inspiring truths and testimonies of the diamonds. Make sure you listen to your CDs. Trust them with all your heart. You can do it. Most of all, don't waste your time on this forum. This time that can be spent showing the plan. I genuinely wish both of the the very best.
Bob
What about me -_-
"George"
If you don't want people to put a spin on things as you claim we do, then give us the specific details of what your expenses were.
Anon,
"One can make well over $5000 a month at the Ruby level if structured according to what is taught (at least in WWDB)."
From what my upline teaches that if you structure even a Platinumship correctly you could gross $100k per year.
I agree that a Founders ruby is also making in excess of $100k. So whether or not "george" wants to give specific details, then one could easliy imply that his expenses were well over $10k per month.
Also Taking Kendall's quote from Lawdawg,
"In MY experience....our downline have not been WILLING to do what it takes."
If everybody did what it takes, we wouldn't be having these discussions.
Not everyone is WILLING to do what it takes, and you can't blame that on the system. Being CORE is only part of the equasion. It ta
The # step is "show the plan" (recruiting). What does that tell you?
Posted by: Joecool18 | November 21, 2006 7:22 AM