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October 8, 2006
Interview with Loki Mulholland - "Believe" Director
By QBlog in Humor
A
few weeks ago I had a brief phone conversation with Loki Mulholland about his
film "Believe," a comedic
multilevel marketing mockumentary. After we talked he agreed to do an interview
with Quixtar BLOG where I tried to ask him questions that other interviewers
hadn't already asked.
The photo is of Loki and "Believe" actor Danor Gerald.
QBlog: Let’s hear the elevator
pitch for “Believe.”
Loki Mulholland: The first movie ever made about the bizarre world of multi-level
marketing is an award-winning comedy that is both funny and insightful. The
satirical mockumentary explores the MLM industry and the people who populate
it.
Q: When do you expect the film to be available to the
masses?
LM: Currently, “Believe” is on a twenty city promotional tour throughout
the country. It’s theatrical release begins in Michigan on October 13th
and then a second release will commence in the Mountain West region in February/March.
We expect to release it on DVD in June of ’07. However, we’re getting
a lot of requests to release in different places throughout the world and we
plan to take it wherever there is demand. As well, the places we have taken
it for our special free screenings are begging us to bring it back so….
Q: What type of research did you do for the film? Who
did you talk to? What did you read? What websites did you visit?
LM: Experience is the best form of research. I was an Amway distributor for
about 4 years (to appease my wife I tell her it was “undercover”
research). I was pretty hardcore. Beyond myself, the two main resources I went
to were Eric Schiebeler’s Merchant of Deception (www.merchantsofdeception.com)
and Scott Larsen’s site, www.amquix.info.
Q: What impact (if any) do you think this film will
have on the multilevel marketing industry and specifically Quixtar and Amway?
Do you want it to have an impact?
LM: I don’t think the industry is going to come to a screeching halt
but it will definitely be a wake-up call. As one MLM company owner told us,
“The industry has a problem and they know it. This film is more accurate
than you realize.” Amway obviously feels it is relevant because they,
according to one reporter, are releasing commercials to boost their image for
the first time in 20 years as a sort of preemptive strike against the movie.
I hope it has an impact. I hope it creates change in an industry that has gotten
off track. I think the MLM Do Not Contact List (www.donotcontactlist.com)
has an even greater potential for change. Think the Do Not Call registry for
MLMs.
Q: Are you Jeremiah
Loki Mulholland, the LDS Musician? If so, what happened with the music?
LM: I am that person. The music still lives on. I have four songs on the movie's
soundtrack and I perform three of them. I haven’t performed as much as
I use to as the movie has consumed the majority of my time. Music is a hard
industry to break into and so I figured if I was making movies I might as well
use some of my music in them to help expand my audience base. I’m currently
working on a new album but I have to get the release of “Believe”
behind me first.
Q: You were in Amway. What group were you in, who was
your upline Diamond and how did your experience with those people inspire the
movie “Believe?”
LM: I was in World Wide Dream Builders. My upline Diamond was David and Debbie
Shores. What really inspired the movie were the meetings we’d go to, especially
the big over-the-top conventions.
Q: If you ran Amway/Quixtar what would you change first?
LM: I would probably burn the place to the ground and collect on the insurance.
If that wasn’t an option then the first thing I would do is apologize to the
millions of people who thought they had a real chance to do something in multi-level
marketing. Next, I would get rid of the tool system that seems to have a stranglehold
on Amway/Quixtar.
Q: Why do you think that nobody has done a film about
MLM before?
LM: In all honesty, I really don’t know why. There’s a huge market
place for the film. We’re getting requests from literally around the world
to screen our movie: India, Asia, Australia, Europe, etc. I think the biggest
challenge has been trying to find a way to approach this subject matter in such
a way that would be both entertaining and educational. You have to walk a fine
line and, really, without having gone through it myself, it would have been
impossible to give an honest portrayal of the industry.
Q: What’s the last movie you saw and what did
you think of it?
LM: "Pirates of the Caribbean 2". I didn’t like it as much as
the first one. It felt like they went overboard with Jonny Depp's character.
It’s like the recognized how well it worked the first time so they decided
more would be better and so it lost it’s spontaneity and such. The whole
island of cannibals sequence could’ve been left on the cutting room floor
and the movie wouldn’t have suffered a bit. I am looking forward to the
third one because even though it wasn’t as good as I would have hoped
it would be it is still far better than most of the stuff that is out there
today. The best movie I have seen in a long time is “Nanny McPhee”.
I think I enjoyed it even more than my wife and kids.
Q: What’s the last book you read and did you like
it?
LM: I’m currently reading “Children of the Arbat”. It’s
a story about a group of kids who grew up on Arbat street in Moscow during the
late 1930s and early 1940s. I lived in Russia and the history of country, particularly
during that period, fascinates me. I majored in Documentary Cinema along with
Russian History and Language when I was in college. My dream is to some day
make a movie in Russia (in Russian).
Q: What are the ten most played songs on your iPod?
LM: My wife uses it more than I do so I don’t know at this point. However,
I swiped it for the tour and Ray Charles has gotten some heavy rotation along
with a assortment of other artist from Mellencamp to Mozart. I usually just
put in on random and whatever comes up is what we hear. So often times the music
goes from Neil Young to Michael Jackson to Snap! to some Mary Poppins tune to
me to…. The rule is, whatever is playing is what you listen to. No changing
it.
Q: Your website asks for MLM “horror stories.”
What are some of the worst that have been submitted?
LM: We’re getting a lot of them and each one has its unique qualities.
I think the most horrific is the guy whose mother’s brother passed away
from cancer and her neighbor tells her she had the miracle cure and if she would
have told her, her brother would still be alive and she would’ve even
made money on the deal. But there are also those where people lose tens of thousands
of dollars, their spouses, etc. Everyone has a story to tell.
Comments
Im doing good in quixtar..but i still wanna see the movie =)
I live in the Detroit area - it's on my list of 'Things to Do' for next weekend!!!!
I wonder how much out of the millions of dollars he is going to make from this movie, is he going to give back to the "victims" of mlm.
Its ironic that some of the same principles he learned at a function (ignoring criticism, having a dream, being persistent, sacrifice, etc. etc.) are probably the same principles he had to employ in order to get his movie on the market.
I'd love to hear what it really took for him to get this movie made. Time, Money, Energy, loss of sleep.
Isn't it funny that someone can go through all the trials and tribulations to produce a movie that is profitable, but if he put the same effort in Quixtar/Amway he'd lose money?
I think he should give all the profits from his movie to every former IBO that made an MLM movie...I guess that would be just him.
Xtra said
"Its ironic that some of the same principles he learned at a function (ignoring criticism, having a dream, being persistent, sacrifice, etc. etc.) are probably the same principles he had to employ in order to get his movie on the market."
I wonder if he had to check with his upline first to make sure he approved it lol.
One thing it takes to make a movie is creativity and individual thought.
Those are 2 things IBO's are taught to, not have.
Big Dog said:
I wonder if he had to check with his upline first to make sure he approved it lol.
One thing it takes to make a movie is creativity and individual thought.
Those are 2 things IBO's are taught to, not have
This is a huge over generalization. This is just like like saying all people who quit the business are lazy, or that all quitters from the business are losers.
I'm am currently in the process of developing some larege B2B sales using the XS brand. This takes a lot of creative energy to come up with marketing strategies that will help develop more profit for my independent business. I didn't have to ask my upline to get permission to do this.
Learning how to retail takes a large amount of individual creativity and work.
Learning how to sponsor new IBOs in width and depth (structure) is one of the most important parts of the business and is all about creativity and being able to think on your own.
Many critics try to make it seem like on of the reasons the business dosen't work is because IBOs (ambots) are not allowed to think on their own.
TO me, this is a cop out to the upmost!
This victim mentality reminds me of the many people I knew who got kicked out of the military. Few ever admitted that they were to blame for their discharge. Sure, in many cases, there were bad superiors, serious relationship issues, and even some egregious circumstances. However, most poeple I knew who got kicked out of the military (FAILED), were unwilling to take personal responsibility for their actions.
Wheres the personal responsibility America?
Xtra said;
"This is just like like saying all people who quit the business are lazy, or that all quitters from the business are losers"
Well, isn't that what's said on tapes and CD's and taught at rallies and functions?
You can call it a cop out, you can call it whatever you want, but when someone is told "Buy from yourself and teach others to do the "SAME"
Or "to be successful do what your upline does. "DUPLICATION of success leads to success"
The words duplication and same mean the exact OPPOSITE of individuality or creativity.
Funny how you compare AmQuix to the military. In the military you're taught to do things like, make you bed, fold your clothes, stencil your clothing, polish your boots etc, the same as EVERYONE else.
Point being there is NO INDIVIDUAL thought in the service. You do EVERYTHING your platoon leader or company commander TELLS you to do.
You DO NOT question him.
Amazing how much a platoon leader and an upline have in common.
The difference is a company commander or platoon leader isn't teaching exact duplication to earn extra $$$$$
Actually, people sometimes die in the military when people don't learn how to make good descisions in a fraction of a second.
Yes, IBOs need to learn how to develop stronger retail clientale. That does not mean that IBOs should not support their own business. I work out quite a bit and I am 10 lbs into losing 50 lbs.
Why wouldn't I buy my own products?
As far as your comments about Duplication. I'll ask what ideas are truly original in this world. Everyone is in large part a product of their environment. THe thing that sererates humans from beasts is that we can at any moment choose a different direction.
"Its ironic that some of the same principles he learned at a function (ignoring criticism, having a dream, being persistent, sacrifice, etc. etc.) are probably the same principles he had to employ in order to get his movie on the market."
A person can pursue a dream, be persistant, sacrifice for something they value, and learn all of the above even if they are NOT involved in Quixtar. Those concepts are not merely monopolized at Quixtar functions.
"I'd love to hear what it really made. Time, Money, Energy, loss of sleep."
Of course it took all those things. Why wouldn't it?
"Isn't it funny that someone can go through all the trials and tribulations to produce a movie that is profitable, but if he put the same effort in Quixtar/Amway he'd lose money?"
I wonder if making the movie put him through trials and tribulations. I kind of doubt it. It was probably his way of dealing with some of inconsistencies and misfortunes he experienced while in "the biZ".
We'll find out when we see how it does on the market. If people want to see it and find his mockumentary amusing, then he'll make money on it. If not, then there wasn't a market for it.
Xtra, what are you talking about??
You said - "Actually, people sometimes die in the military when people don't learn how to make good descisions in a fraction of a second."
What does that have to do with anything I discussed?
You said - "Yes, IBOs need to learn how to develop stronger retail clientale. That does not mean that IBOs should not support their own business."
Nobody says your shouldn't support your own business, but building your business should NOT be predicated on the "Buy from yourself and teach others to do the same" Mentality (It's ILLEGAL)
You said - "I work out quite a bit and I am 10 lbs into losing 50 lbs."
Me too, I've lost 29lbs since I left AmQuix and stopped using their products. So what does any of that prove?
You said - "I'll ask what ideas are truly original in this world. Everyone is in large part a product of their environment"
An original idea or individuality is simply based upon making your own decisions and doing what you feel like doing. Listening to certain music, or watching certain movies or television shows are signs of individuality. Wearing different styles of clothing brands, jewelery, facial hair, hair style, all signs of individuality.
In AmQuix, you all listen to the same tapes, read the same books, use the same products, dress the same, talk the same and act the same.
There is NOTHING creative or individual about that.
The duplication is just the start of it, later on you have to make your own. Same goes with cds (why is it tapes O_O) and books. After going through all those tapes and books, i realized that thats just a general answer. I ending up making my own way of sponsoring people and starting them up right =)
Uhh..you think its a good idea to come to a meeting wearing shorts, a tshirt and sandals? Look at us outside meetings..we have our own way of doing everything
Hey Christian I'll give you a break because you seem different than most IBO's (unless that's Christian Anton, are you the same person?)
Anyway as far as this statement goes;
"Uhh..you think its a good idea to come to a meeting wearing shorts, a tshirt and sandals? Look at us outside meetings..we have our own way of doing everything"
First of all I've NEVER started a business meeting with a prayer or a pledge of allegiance. Business meetings should be about business. Religion, politics, and motivational speeches have never been associated with any business meeting I've been to.
But to answer your question, I agree you should dress professionaly at a business meeting.
As far as outside your meetings. Dude, maybe you dress casually, but EVERY IBO I know dresses in a suit and tie EVERYDAY (trying to look professional in order to present their "business")
And they usually have an Xs in their hand. I can spot an IBO a mile away.
Xtra:" Learning how to retail takes a large amount of individual creativity and work."
You bet it does. Especialy when you're not allowed to used methods already in place that can save tons of time and money. It's almost like trying to reinvent a wheel, but your end product isn't able to be circular or able to roll.
Whoops. That last line should say "isn't allowed to be circular or have the ability to roll."
Its ironic that some of the same principles he learned at a function (ignoring criticism, having a dream, being persistent, sacrifice, etc. etc.) are probably the same principles he had to employ in order to get his movie on the market.
Where did he say he faced any criticsms? If he's bad at marketing, but knows he's a better film maker and can make a better ROI than being an IBO, why shouldn't he go with it?
Big Dog said:Point being there is NO INDIVIDUAL thought in the service. You do EVERYTHING your platoon leader or company commander TELLS you to do.
You DO NOT question him.
Amazing how much a platoon leader and an upline have in common.
This was what I was replying to. I don't agree with this statement. There are principles that IBOs adhere to. But there is quite a bit of individuality involved in building the business as well. Same with the military.
inquiringmind said:A person can pursue a dream, be persistant, sacrifice for something they value, and learn all of the above even if they are NOT involved in Quixtar. Those concepts are not merely monopolized at Quixtar functions.
You're absolutely right. Maybe we're misunderstanding each other. Those attributes are common to all people striving to accomplish goals. My question is why are IBOs villafied for teaching people these principles.
I think its because these attributes are very hard to put in practice. Most people won't do it. It's too hard.
That still does not mean that as IBO leades, we shouldn't teach people what it takes to succeed.
America needs to toughen up!
BigDog said:Me too, I've lost 29lbs since I left AmQuix and stopped using their products. So what does any of that prove?
Nothing. Its just that I can promote my products as having helped me lose my weight. Personal Use leads to retail profit.
Xtra:" Learning how to retail takes a large amount of individual creativity and work."
inquiringmind:"You bet it does. Especialy when you're not allowed to used methods already in place that can save tons of time and money. It's almost like trying to reinvent a wheel, but your end product isn't able to be circular or able to roll.
I have to disagree. There are plenty of B2B avenues that can be used by IBOs. The gift incentive program is a great way to market to businesses. XS is opening up the traditional retail avenue with products like the XS Syrup.
There truth to what you're saying, but I enjoy the fact that people can only buy certain products from me and not from a store. It evens the playing field for all IBOs. An opportunity for everyone who wants it.
Where there's a will....
Xtra come on man you said --
"My question is why are IBOs villafied for teaching people these principles."
That's simple. It's because you only do that to make a profit off of them.
You wouldn't teach that to someone not in AmQuix would you?
You said -- "I think its because these attributes are very hard to put in practice. Most people won't do it. It's too hard."
I think it's because people can't afford to keep losing $$$$ buying books, and CD's or going to rallies and functions that have NOTHING to do with the Q* business. Nor do people wanna overpay for Q* products.
Maybe you know the answer to this question, I've posted this a few times but nobody has ever answered it;
Why did Amway change their name to Quixtar in North America?
Bigdog,
Where do you live? I presume you live on the east coast because of previous comments you have made.
In our area, here's how it goes: we all encourage "business attire" (just like when I was at IBM & AT&T) when attending a business gathering. Although it can be much more casual at an upline Platinum's nut & bolts or training session (ie: nice jeans, capri's, etc.). Some of the men and women work day jobs outside of the home as well so they do wear business attire to their day jobs.
However, when we're on "our own time", if you will, we all wear different clothing, different jewelry, different purses, different fragrances, different sweats, different styles of jeans, etc.
We all listen to our own preference of music, yes, in addition to the cd's IF the IBO is CORE.
We go to movies. We rent movies alot too (we have little ones, so we're home alot). In fact, my hubby & I just watched "thank you for smoking". It was a dry & satirical type of humor. I also rented "scary movie 4". Haven't see it (or any of them yet) but wanted a good laugh at some dumb stuff. You know, life gets a little too serious sometimes....so ya gotta just stop & say "what the..." every now & again.
We read other things than what's on the book list....in fact, in ADDITION to what's on the book list.
I watch tv. I like to watch channels like A&E, Discovery, TLC, MSNBC, CNN, etc. I find it keeps me very informed. But, just as certain media channels can be more "left-wing" or "right-wing", I have to keep my mind open and weed out what I don't agree with. Just like I should do when listening to cd's & listening to speakers on stage.
Use what you like & throw the rest out.
I too, am working the retail side more than alot of IBO's. That means, as Christian said, that I have to come up with alot of my own marketing strategies. Although it's not difficult because I LOVE the marketing materials Quixtar has for their products and they are VERY inexpensive to help a retail business to get started.
I just have to make the effort & go out and share the information.
That's it! My 3 year old is calling me to go make apple desserts & play some games. My "boss" is needing me...;-)
Anon
BidDog said:Why did Amway change their name to Quixtar in North America?
I have no idea. Good thing I only had to pay $50 and I could start building the Quixtar business. I don't have enough brains to figure those things out.
I'm guessing that since they were starting a new company, cutting edge, technologically advanced, that they wanted to to give it a name that fit.
I'd be naive to say it was because of the bad reputation that a few shady IBOs had given the name over the 40+years prior to Quixtar.
It probably had something to do with complainers who didn't want to take responsibility for their own failure, so they blaimed AMWAY.
Xtra you were doing good until you spouted off with tapespeak; "It probably had something to do with complainers who didn't want to take responsibility for their own failure, so they blaimed AMWAY"
Yeah, I mean 1 in 14,000 make the diamond level. That's 10 in 140,000 or 100 in 1,400,000. I mean obviously that has nothing to do with Amway or Quixtar and everything to do with those millions of people.
Anon, I live in NY and I honestly can only talk abotu what I see. Maybe all these people are on the same team or something, but I seriously can spot them in an instant around here. Most of them dress in black suits with a red "power" tie, carry black briefcases and always have some sort of Xs drink in their hand.
I've said this before about you,
You seem as though you build the business with an open mind, and that's a good thing. Again, I don't route for IBO's to fail I just wanna make future IBO's aware of what they could be dealing with (or will be dealing with from my experience)
I wish you nothing but the best
BigDog:
Just having some fun. I like the debate.
We can argue your 1 in 14,000 figure all day. How many of those 14,000 stayed in longer than a year? How many showed the plan more than 5 times per week for a year or more? How many of those 14,000 had retail customers and personal circles larger than 300-500points? etc etc.
I know of 3 couples in the last 6 months that I sponsored who did absolutely nothing before they quit.
I'm guessing that since they were starting a new company, cutting edge, technologically advanced, that they wanted to to give it a name that fit.
Cutting Edge? Amazon have done it bigger and better, yet started out 5 years before Quixtar. I wonder what the difference in sales volume is between the two.
We can argue your 1 in 14,000 figure all day. How many of those 14,000 stayed in longer than a year? How many showed the plan more than 5 times per week for a year or more? How many of those 14,000 had retail customers and personal circles larger than 300-500points? etc etc.
But every single one of those 14,000 were considered "active" according to Quixtar standards. Those numbers aren't people who signed up and did nothing.
Xtra:
I'm am currently in the process of developing some larege B2B sales using the XS brand. This takes a lot of creative energy to come up with marketing strategies that will help develop more profit for my independent business. I didn't have to ask my upline to get permission to do this. "
BWW Rules:
"Never do anything for the first time without consulting upline."
You are breaking your uplines rules. You should counsel with them immediately to straighten out your business.
*snicker*
ANON,
Yeah I guess that is an east coast thing. Because like BIGDOG said you can spot an IBO because we are taught to look sharp all the time and have some kind of ice breaker hence the XS drink in hand. I know, I know this only happens in BWW not any other MO.
Xtra,
So you are saying that they want indiviuals thinking for themselves in the BIZ and the military. I was in both and thats most definitely what you are not taught. Unity is a used quite often in both.
Im just..christian christian =p..im probly different cuz im the youngest here? =)
Well, i guess im in an odd team. The top guy in my team (around 120-140) wears casual stuff and looks like the type of person thatll start trouble. 2 of my main mentors (person that sponsored me and who sponsored him) are 23 and 25. Ones usually in casual, ive seen him looking wierd outside a suit.
As for me? Only reason ill wear a suit is for biz meetings. Im fine prospecting with jeans/baggy pants and a tshirt and colared shirt (dont know how to call it, but its things you put on top of a shirt with buttons in the middle).
Well, this is probably mp3speak (i listen to em in my mp3 player..you guys need to catch up with the times =p). But unless youve actually tried what the cd says..youll just end up repeating what..the cd says. Cuz after you try what the cd says, youll probably realize it doesnt work for you..at all. I kept doing what one of the cds said, but after repeating what it said i just felt odd and stupid saying it..so i changed it up abit that suits me.
So really, cds are just the general idea. Experience will tell you to "specialize".
As far as consulting with your upline. I dont do it all the time either. Heres a simple idea for what goes on in my head =)
Person likes product - Client
Person wants to buy wholesale - Prosumer
Person tells friend about product
>Does person want to make some money or all goes to me?
If yes - Person becomes IBO
If no - I make more money =)
@BIG DOG
LOL..yeah..i hear you. Now im sometimes looking extra carefull at people in suits. Some wear em cuz they work at a place were you use them while some are in mlms and pyramids..cuz ive been prospected lotsa tims even after being an IBO =p. One time i was out having a smoke and i kinda ended up talking to this guys, and so i decided to prospect him. Then he somehow turned the tables and prospected me. He gave me his card, info and invited me to a meeting..in the end i was like..wtf happened O_o
Big Dog -
"This is just like like saying all people who quit the business are lazy, or that all quitters from the business are losers"
Well, isn't that what's said on tapes and CD's and taught at rallies and functions?
7 years, hundreds of CDs, dozens of seminars. Never heard it once. Not once. I have heard the founders of Amway/Quixtar say people shouldn't be called that. I have heard Crown Ambassadors say people shouldn't be called that. And I have heard people like you keep telling people like me that's what I say and a taught - even though that's false, because I don't teach it, aren't taught it, and don't say it. I guess they're talking to somone who must do that, but it ain't me and it ain't anyone I've associated with. So open your little box Big Dog and realise there's a whole Big Amway world out there you never experienced.
Insider:
"7 years, hundreds of CDs, dozens of seminars. Never heard it once. Not once. "
See BigDog, Insider never heard that, so it must not be true.
Broken. Record.
We should start a "Has Insider Heard This?" thread to keep tabs on just what the hell he has heard.
Continuing on the Field Guide to AmQuix IBOs...
Since I am from India, I am always approached by an Indian guy/couple. So what I say here about IBOs applies only to them.
They are not always in suit and tie, but do dress well (far better than the average person from India), have no or empty shopping carts (while at whatever-mart) and display a spontaneous interest/familiarity in you or the product you are looking at (remember, in India people don't smile or nod or mumble the vernacular equivalent of 'zup on eye-contact unless they know that person)...
I can tell them from about 50 yards ;-)
Fastshutter-- We should start a "Has Insider Heard This?" thread to keep tabs on just what the hell he has heard.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Xtra E = Its ironic that some of the same principles he learned at a function (ignoring criticism, having a dream, being persistent, sacrifice, etc. etc.) are probably the same principles he had to employ in order to get his movie on the market.
I'd love to hear what it really took for him to get this movie made. Time, Money, Energy, loss of sleep.
Dude, I think it takes time and energy and effort to do anything. Sell XS or make a movie.
He certainly didn't learn that at a function. That's just human nature.
Difference is, his movie has VALUE, whereas Q* is a waste of time and money and effort.
@earache
uh..yeah for you. Not for others who succeded in Q*. Maybe their failures in Q*, but i highly doubt they should be called failures in life.
Why dont we let informed people debate on this and not just the extras? Atleast BIG DOG has valid points, and hes against people scamming people. Q* cant scam people..its the morons that join
David said:
ANON,
Yeah I guess that is an east coast thing. Because like BIGDOG said you can spot an IBO because we are taught to look sharp all the time and have some kind of ice breaker hence the XS drink in hand. I know, I know this only happens in BWW not any other MO.
Anon: Actually it does happen in other "MO's". Sure. Look sharp. Doesn't that make sense to you? Why would you want someone with bad breath, BO & stained clothes approaching you? Would you respond? Or run? ha! ha!
Actually, I DO realize what you are saying about the 'suits'. It's funny. Once, when working for IBM I had someone say to me "I know you're either from the FBI, the IRS or IBM". I really felt out of place! ;-) We really stood out.
And David (Robinson??? Or another David?),
XS is a great conversation starter. So are many of the products & marketing materials. I've gotten many names while sitting & reading an Achieve Magazine while my kid's played at Mickey D's.
I have found that many of the prospecting tips apply in more areas than Quixtar. A lot of them were used when I was in sales at IBM (cold calling, striking up conversations through networking) and in sales at AT&T and other F100 companies.
Sales requires finding customers. Whether it's advertising, having a store front, introducing yourself, handing out fliers, going store to store with a biz card & brochures, putting fliers in your local neighborhood mailboxes...whatever. It's 'getting the word out' in whatever way works for you.
Have an awesome night,
Anon
The idea of wearing suits in Quixtar seems a bit silly to me. Stuff like not having BO, bad breath, not looking like you're wearing clothes you woke up in should be common sense when you're doing retail.
But suits? Give me a break. This business is built around the people you know and your friends and their friends. Are some of you saying you'd wear a suit to make contacts with people like that?
Frankly fastshutter I'm getting pretty sick of you accusing me of being a liar. I'm giving my experience and pointing out that perhaps Big Dog's experience is not universal. Your only response? Ad hominem attacks. There are somewhere close to a million IBOs in the United States. Given most don't renew, that means there has been several million IBOs in the US over the past few years. Do you think perhaps maybe in that "shutfast" mind of yours there is room to consider that perhaps the reason why there are so few people whinging on sites like this is because they shared a similar experience, but that the hundreds of thousands of other IBOs and former IBOs that aren't whinging aren't doing so because they didn't experience what folk like you and Big Dog experienced? Just stretch open your mind a fraction and consider it could be possible.
Fitz - general rule of thumb is to be the best dress person, but only just. If you are showing it to a bunch of friends, no, don't wear a suit, you'll look like a dork.
Insider: do point out where fastshutter accused you of being a liar.
And talk about whining! Something about the pot calling the kettle black...
ANON,
No I am not David Robinson.
Fitz,
I was reffering too contacting. I am a construction HVAC worker. So after work I would go home get cleaned up, put on my suit and go contacting or show the plan. But it was very frustrating when you are out and you go by a gas station or too the mall and there are several others there walking around in suits. CARRYING XS. Like my sponsor always told me just hang out at the gas station and look like your pumping gas or just wash your windows until the right one shows up.
Insider you said -
"7 years, hundreds of CDs, dozens of seminars. Never heard it once. Not once. I have heard the founders of Amway/Quixtar say people shouldn't be called that. I have heard Crown Ambassadors say people shouldn't be called that."
Ok two things here. First of all I guess you've never heard a Dave Severn tape or CD (Pretty sure Dave Severn and Ron Puryear are big pins, or were big pins in WWDB)
Secondly, if you heard founders of AmQuix and CAM's say "You shouldn't call people losers" wouldn't that mean people would've had to have said that?
Obviously it's been said numerous times if it prompted a guy like Rich Devos to say "What gives you the right to call someone a loser!?" (Directly Speaking 1983)
You say just because I've heard it doesn't mean it goes on all the time and that's fine, I'll agree with that.
But why don't you start to admit that just because YOU are blind to things or, don't hear things, doesn't mean that it's NOT happening.
Fitz:I was reffering too contacting. I am a construction HVAC worker. So after work I would go home get cleaned up, put on my suit and go contacting or show the plan. But it was very frustrating when you are out and you go by a gas station or too the mall and there are several others there walking around in suits. CARRYING XS. Like my sponsor always told me just hang out at the gas station and look like your pumping gas or just wash your windows until the right one shows up.
Just because contacting was hard for you dosen't mean its an impossible task. Maybe you were so uncomfortable, that were coming off like a weirdo.
Persoanl development. Learning how to start conversations and meet people is a skill that will serve most people for the rest of their life.
I often see other IBOs out around town.
You say you were frustrated when you would see other IBOs out contacting while you were out at the same time.
I would say that your frustration was probably just your way of covering up your fear of meeting new people.
When I see other IBOs out around town while I'm out making friends, I get excited because I know that most of them are to scared to meet anyone new or they don't contact enough so they're not going to relate to most people anyway.
Fear can paralyze any attempts at activity. Your mind starts playing tricks.
I'm reminded of the Ghetto Boyz, "My Mind's Playing Tricks On Me!!"
On the countless millions who are satisfied with their Amway experience:
We're back to numbers again. (It's so MUCH larger than you think...).
Knock of the vast majority that don't do anything - no complaints there!
That leaves us two types: those that are doing it, and those that did it and stopped.
Now, those that did it and stopped are frequent here - so maybe a skewed representation?
Those that are doing it are the other representation...and of course, those are the ones that are in systems without any problems and they are chugging along just fine. Except, come to find out - they're shuffling money around, selling things to themselves to show a false profit, creeping around gas stations - and while they haven't made any money yet - they're gonna!
Those that did it and stopped say, "Yeah, we walked/talked/acted the same way and did the same things. It was going to work for us."
So, perhaps the lack of complaints (whining, as it were) may be attributed to: most IBOs didn't do anything to begin with, and those that are 'doing it' are well down the path of 'it's going to work for me.'
Consider the absolute lack of 'active doing it' IBOs that come here and say there is a problem with their 'system.' None. Zero. Maybe they admit there's a problem somewhere else - but not in their world.
That's just as telling as 'only whiners come here.'
On a side note:
"Personal Use leads to retail profit."
HAHAHAHA!!!!
"It evens the playing field for all IBOs."
Rules are meant to protect consumers - well, in this case, IBOs and consumers are one in the same, so I guess that is a true statement!
Insider says:
"Frankly fastshutter I'm getting pretty sick of you accusing me of being a liar. I'm giving my experience and pointing out that perhaps Big Dog's experience is not universal. Your only response? Ad hominem attacks. There are somewhere close to a million IBOs in the United States. Given most don't renew, that means there has been several million IBOs in the US over the past few years. Do you think perhaps maybe in that "shutfast" mind of yours there is room to consider that perhaps the reason why there are so few people whinging on sites like this is because they shared a similar experience, but that the hundreds of thousands of other IBOs and former IBOs that aren't whinging aren't doing so because they didn't experience what folk like you and Big Dog experienced? Just stretch open your mind a fraction and consider it could be possible."
I don't think I ever called you a liar, but I would be happy to recant any incident where you can point out that you weren't lying. ;)
Frankly, I am completey pissed off at the way you treat people who have obviously been taken advantage of by your crossline IBO's on this side of the pond. No matter how bad they took it in the shorts, you find something, ANYTHING to pick apart and spread the blame. You are trying to do damage control making these situations appear smaller and less damaging then they really are. It's like your trying to tell the rape victims it isn't as bad as they make it out, people like to have sex right? What can be wrong with a little force now and then?
Many of your rebuttals fall back on the wool you pull over your eyes. "I haven't seen it. I never hear heard of it." Give me a break. You can't cover your ears and eyes and make it go away, and it certainly isn't making the critics and victims shrug our shoulders and give up.
Denying these things ever happen makes me wonder what N21 is teaching you over there. Are you really running an ethical business when you tell people who complain that it doesn't happen? If you can blind yourself to that, what else are you ignoring?
You talk about how there are so few of us here. Why is Quixtar running a multi-million dollar advertising campaign to fix it's image if there are so few people who complain about it? The proof is in the almighty dollar.
Xtra,
Are you speaking from your experience. I never said I couldnt contact or was scared. I started conversations all the time. During a certain time of the night the chances of running into other IBOs was what I was talking about. That didnt frustrate me it was cool seeing other IBOs (in the hunt) as we called it. So get off your SA8 box and go diamond.
David:
I believe I was replying to one of Fitz's comments. Sorry you took offense.
Insider says:
"Frankly fastshutter I'm getting pretty sick of you accusing me of being a liar. "
As long as you continue to lie, get use to being called a liar.
Xtra:
You should be reminded of the Ghetto Boys -- that song is about going through hallucinations while on drugs. Very similar to being caught up in the false hopes and imbibed thoughts fueled by your vitamins and energy drinks.
Christian:
Go ahead and reread my post. Your rebuttal addressed nothing in the body of my work.
And keep working on your ESL (English as a Second Language). Your conversational English needs a lot of work.
I'm kind of changeing the subject here, but I've got a few questions. As I was paying for a fill up of gas at a local convenience store, I noticed a new energy drink on sale in a cooler of ice by the check out. It was a good price, so I tried it and liked it. I couldn't help but wonder why I couldn't do the same thing with XS? It would be such a simple way to get exposure, and all it would take it to "prospect" the manager. Of all the things that I feel are over priced, XS at the member price, I feel is actually competativly priced. Anyway, could this be done, and if not, why?
If I were an IBO, couldn't I put my own ad in the paper, considering that I am taking the financial risk, in doing so?
Also, if I were to simply go to an open meeting NOT wearing a business type of dress (I'm a woman :-, but more business casual attire (Denim skirt and blouse or maybe khakis and a sweater,) am I understanding correctly that I wouldn't be able to attend? Not even allowed to enter the meeting room?
I just don't want to assume too much and be wrong.
I was cruising around on Craigslist just today and found these sad little ads cluttering almost every cranny of the job announcements.
Dubious titles such as "Now Interviewing, $8,333 per month"
Clicking on the link takes one to a list of reasons for "owning" your own business and has catchy promises and rational such as.
"Our business develops 6 & 7 Figure Income Earners, quickly and easily. Serious respondents will be those who are genuinely considering Home Based Business Ownership not those looking for J.O.B (just over broke)."
Do I have solid proof this is Quixtar? No I didn't take the time to fill out the form to find out (and I don't advise doing so) but it certainly sounds like the Q duck quacking.
The problem here is the image that Quixtar DOES have IBO's and Teams that work in this manner. I have seen the Biz advertised in this manner. Where is the respectability? Where is the true value of this business plan?
Instead IBO's are peddling a "curiosity approach" along side the same folks pulling Nigerian scams and Scientology recruiters in the mall. It just does not smack of HONESTY.
As far as manner of dress goes, I had an old boss that insisted that we wear a suit and tie to work everyday...we had rare access to the public and there were only 3 of us in the office. When asked why we did this he responded,
"We dress this way to give the impression that we know what we're doing even when we don't"
In essence he believed we should fake the image of credibility. Not unlike the way this business operates.
If anyone could make Diamond, I would bet on that guy.
I feel badly for you folks that ARE attempting to run an honest business as an IBO for Quixtar, because you are fighting an uphill battle against the numerous dishonest hordes of similar purposed ilk.
It is a battle against a dishonest and insidious cancer of greed and manipulation.
I wish you the best of luck.
Ive been to a couple of meetings without a suite, i always prospect without a suite..so..meh..
===========
@earache
ESL? Which part of this post
[@earache
uh..yeah for you. Not for others who succeded in Q*. Maybe their failures in Q*, but i highly doubt they should be called failures in life.
Why dont we let informed people debate on this and not just the extras? Atleast BIG DOG has valid points, and hes against people scamming people. Q* cant scam people..its the morons that join]
Requires me to study esl? you have no points so you have a problem with some extra dots?. Anyways, lets look at your post and mine again. Other than the extra sentences about products..here what you said
[Difference is, his movie has VALUE, whereas Q* is a waste of time and money and effort.]
And heres what i said
[uh..yeah for you. Not for others who succeded in Q*. Maybe their failures in Q*, but i highly doubt they should be called failures in life.]
-----
Is it really that hard to connect the two? Its your opinion that its a waste of time, money and effort cuz you failed at Quixtar (not life). But i succeded in Quixtar, so im not a failure in Quixtar. Is it that hard to connect?
Your opinion: Q* isnt worth it, cuz you cant do it. Does this mean that nobody else can do it cuz you failed at it? ...egomuch? O_o
@Dawson
Thanks =). Most of my IBOs came from a product approach. 2 IBOs used to be clients.
@earache
Lets keep the arguement to quixtar and not personal shall we?
IM,
Regarding the sale of XS on a "shelf" or in a fridge in a retail environment...I believe there are versions of that being done all over. I belive that the owner of the establishment must have an IBO number. Now, can he/she put the product on the shelf? Not sure. I DO know that he/she can have brochures, signs, posters displayed and have a sign that says "ask me about....XS, or other product". It's not as clean cut as having it on the shelf (bummer) but hopefully they'll be changing that sometime soon! :-)
Regarding dress...come as you are! My goodness...business attire is simply suggested and recommended. No biggie! It does not indicate the level of intelligence or ability a person has. We've had LOTS of prospects come in jeans & tennies, capri's, low (too low, if you ask me) cut tops, etc. We sure didn't turn them away! We went out of our way to make them feel welcomed & introduced them to all the "big" pins, etc. So to answer your question...no, you will not be turned away.
And yes, IBO's can advertise their biz all they want. Here are two reasons why it's discouraged: 1)you want to find out HOW others have done it so as not to waste money and repeat mistakes and, 2)you really do want your downline to be able to do what you do....duplication. If you have downline who really need money then you do things like LOAN them tools for their training and you set a goal for them to make $$$ as soon as possible with as little upfront cost as possible.
We've outlined this plan to MANY people....the biggest problem? Their WILLINGNESS to show up & take action.
Anon
So I wouldn't have to wear "business attire" to a meeting, I'd just have to put up with the "you'll never make it in this business dressed like that" attitude, which totally wouldn't bother me. ( Like my sister in law IBO has written on her whiteboard in her apartment. "I don't give a crap what other people think of me.")
So I could prospect the c-store manager? 'Seems like common sense to me!
If I were to become an IBO, and were to advertise in the newspaper, I wouldn't advertise a business, I'd advertise a product. After all, isn't that what a business is supposed to be all about?
BTW, Christian, I hope you don't prospect with a fancy hotel room (AKA a suite) unless you're selling more than Q* products! ;-)
Hi IM, how long have you been around here? Your response seems much more sarcastic and bitter than actually constructive and worthwhile. Never the less, here is my take on it:
IM> So I wouldn't have to wear "business attire" to a meeting, I'd just have to put up with the "you'll never make it in this business dressed like that" attitude, which totally wouldn't bother me.
B> I ditto Anon's experience. There have been IBOs and guests alike without "business attire" and they are not turned away. In addition, never at an open meeting, nor other team meeting, have I heard disparaging remarks about dress to the group or any one person. At the last function, there was no reference to someone "not making it" because of dress. And even with me actively listening for it at the function: no one called someone a loser for not joining this business, or quitting this business!
IM>"I don't give a crap what other people think of me."
B> "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People": Don't Care what other people think. Another maxim: do not read your own press clippings. Sorry IM, that statement your sister in law has on her board is not new to "the system". Perhaps you could learn something from it?
IM>So I could prospect the c-store manager? 'Seems like common sense to me!
B> Yes. The rules department clarifies, and makes allowances, for the rules of Quixtar. Unfortunately, the rules are much more robust than I think the founders ever anticipated. This is the 80-20 rule, that 20% ruined it for the other 80% percent, so they had to make a rule. Never the less, you can work it with the rules department for a store owner (salon especially) to have stock of product in the back room and if a customer asks how to get a product, you say "through me" and can service them right there. Imagination and creativity help a great deal in every business, this is no different. (And as Anon has said: perhaps it could change. Avon retails at stores, and Amway China HAS TO retail through outlets, not in-home business)
IM> If I were to become an IBO, and were to advertise in the newspaper, I wouldn't advertise a business, I'd advertise a product. After all, isn't that what a business is supposed to be all about?
B> You can advertise whatever you want once you clear it through the corporation. (They own the brand names). Please check with Deb in the forums. She ran an Amway ad for years in the paper.
Sorry for the long post.
I was reffering too contacting. I am a construction HVAC worker. So after work I would go home get cleaned up, put on my suit and go contacting or show the plan. But it was very frustrating when you are out and you go by a gas station or too the mall and there are several others there walking around in suits. CARRYING XS. Like my sponsor always told me just hang out at the gas station and look like your pumping gas or just wash your windows until the right one shows up.
No offense, but that's a pretty creepy way of oontacting people. People in general don't like cold contacting, but to have somebody come up to me when all I want to do is pump gas would annoy the hell out of me. Whenever I go to a gas station and they've allowed someone to approach customers with some new-fangled squeegy or miracle window cleaner, I'll immediately grab my cell phone and at the very least act like I'm talking on it, just so they won't bother me.
Ive never prospected in a suit before..ever. The closest ive prospected in something i dont usually wear is a collared shirt thingy and slacks. Other than that, im your typical college student in typical clothes =p
Dawson, if those "job ads" are Quixtar IBOs, they are blatantly breaking the rules. If you can't be bothered reporting them, then don't blame Quixtar if they don't do anything about them. Oh ... but that's right, out of the thousands of Amway rip-offs out there and the thousands of real scams, you just decided it was probably quixtar for no particular reason - no interest at all in the truth or facts, just in slandering us. Pathetic.
Regarding Brad and Anon's message on dress. What LOS do you belong to? I was part of BWW for a number of years, and although I was never excluded because of my dress, we were instructed in every detail on how to dress if we wanted to be successful. We were told that as women, we were not to be in pants, had to wear pantyhose, closed toed shoes. Nonesense! I personally know CEO's that dress in tasteful pant suits and open toed shoes in the summer. When I had downline ladies, I couldn't let them participate in a product demo at an open meeting until they wore a skirt (knee-length mind you) several meetings in a row. The men were instructed so much on dress that my husband only had white and light blue dress shirts in his closet. Bill Britt didn't wear any other colors, so neither should he. Only red or blue ties were allowed (good republican-looking ties). I have been at meetings where guests in jeans have been turned away. This may not be the norm for other LOS's, but I've heard from stage at Britt functions, speaches concerning 'proper business dress'.
To respond to the original post about the upcoming movie. I'm looking forward to it. I live in Michigan, and it couldn't come at a more perfect time. With Devos running for governor, this is perfect ammunition.
IM,
I apologize. I mistook your questions as sincere. I didn't realize you were looking to throw back a sarcastic, useless response such as:
"So I wouldn't have to wear "business attire" to a meeting, I'd just have to put up with the "you'll never make it in this business dressed like that" attitude, which totally wouldn't bother me."
I ditto what Brad said:
"Your response seems much more sarcastic and bitter than actually constructive and worthwhile."
What do you want, IM? Are you looking for us to "slip up" and let you know our nasty, little secrets in our nasty, little cult? Sorry. No secrets here. You're wasting your time.
If you want a constructive debate with statements & questions that are professional, tactful & have integrity, fine. I'm up for that.
Let me know.
Anon
Fitz: No offense, but that's a pretty creepy way of oontacting people. People in general don't like cold contacting, but to have somebody come up to me when all I want to do is pump gas would annoy the hell out of me. Whenever I go to a gas station and they've allowed someone to approach customers with some new-fangled squeegy or miracle window cleaner, I'll immediately grab my cell phone and at the very least act like I'm talking on it, just so they won't bother me.
Maybe the problem is with you. SOme of my most loyal XS customers and new IBOs have come from cold contacting. I developed the skill to meet people so I don't come off as a weirdo. I'm just saying hello to people and making chit chat.
If someone dosen't want to chit chat, that's their perogative. I think its funny when I run into people who get their feathers ruffled so easy.
I must admit Fitz, when I do run across some people like you, I tend to mess with them. For instance, when I'm in the hallway at work and there are certain people who are completely anti-social, I always give them a loud and resounding "HELLO!"
Maybe you thinks its creepy because you're creepy?
Anonymous,
I don't doubt you one little bit. I totally believe you.
I used to work at IBM. There was an unwritten code that if you wanted to "move up", you needed to dress the part. Dark blue or black suit. White shirt. NO OTHER COLOR! Basic red, blue or dark green tie. Shiny shoes. For women, suits with skirts...not pants. Skirts to or below the knees. No more than 3 colors or 2 patterns at the same time. Too distracting to the customer.
Now, I understand the perceived need for these rules. They want the customer to focus on the product or service or opportunity being presented....not focusing on the presenter.
However, I also believe that MOST of these rules for both BWW (and maybe even WWDB) & for IBM were written YEARS AGO when this type of dress and behaviour was much more common.
Unfortunately, our society & culture has changed.....drastically. VERY casual wear is acceptable in MOST work environments. I get shocked when I see someone in a casual shirt & khaki's or capri's and they're on a break from their job. I'm like...."what do you DO?" I automatically assume they don't deal with new customers everyday.
There actually IS something to a person dressing professionally and somewhat conservatively. There are studies that prove the positive receptiveness of the "audience", if you will. They are more receptive. Likewise, if a sales rep pulls up to the customer site in a rusty chevrolet vs. a newer, non-rusted saturn, the customer will automatically give more time & credibility to the rep in the newer, nicer vehicle. We may not like it...but that's the way it is.
With that said, times have changed. So, the prospecting in the suit is no longer a necessity or even appropriate. It could actually 'hurt' their business. Just dress nicely. Look sharp. Be well-groomed. Always be professional & tactful.
No one should ever be turned away because of what they're wearing. I am thankful that WWDB does not do that. How do I know? Because of what my very own prospects were wearing at the most recent function.
Hey Xtra you said --
"I must admit Fitz, when I do run across some people like you, I tend to mess with them. For instance, when I'm in the hallway at work and there are certain people who are completely anti-social, I always give them a loud and resounding "HELLO!" "
Why even bother? Why would you go out of your way to make someone feel uncomfortable? Says a lot about your character and integrity.
And you have the nerve to call Fitz creepy? Look in the mirror bud, before you go pointing fingers.
Well, I was actually appreciating the opportunity to ask some questions I've had about the biz, because I thought if it were possible for me to get the local c-store to offer XS as an option for its patrons, and if I could advertise via the newspaper or another conventional methods, I thought maybe I'd try these methods to support my n-laws. 'Never thought I'd see my self type THAT! WOnders never cease, huh!
All I wanted was an answer about the dress thing. I'm kind of a rebel and don't always follow the crowd.
As for the "I don't give a crap what people think about me" comment, all I meant by that was that if the dress code wasn't mandatory, but just an attitudinal plus, I have no problem with people thinking any less of me. I was agreeing with Covey's concept. I'm not sure how that got misconstrued. I'm sorry you guys perceived it incorrectly. Brad, could you tell me what I could learn from it? I already agree with it. Fill me in.
Wait, I need to reevaluate that. I DO care what others think of me, especially those who are important to me. I think it should read: "I don't care what my critics think of me."
I honestly believe that is how most people interpret that maxim.
If my questions are considered negative, then there really is a communication barrier between those in the biz and those who are critcal thinkers.
I encourage ANON and Brad to convince me otherwise. If not, well... that supportive idea just got blown to bits...
IM, I would agree there must be a communication barrier. I did not interpret your statement about the phrase on your sister-in-law's board as: you are supportive. And no, I have nothing to add to it, I'm glad you understand it. I agree with your interpretation.
to Anonymous: I am in BWW. Yes there are CDs that touch on dress and appearence. But it never says you MUST do something, it is merely a suggestion. For example: it is helpful for those with low self image. The quickest way to give yourself a boost in self-image is to dress better! I learned this from my grandfather long ago. It is not an insult, and is not meant as a threat or requirement. And if you are not the one that needs this training, don't take it!
I for one am also a little rebellous. I JUST bought a white shirt after some years in business. Until this time, I never would wear a white shirt. It was always stripe or pattern, bright colors, and my tie would match the color of the shirt or some shade or hidden color. My favorite shirt colors: sunrise orange (great for fall), purple, blue, yellow/brown/light blue stripe with a solid light blue Express tie. This style caught on in our open meeting and the image that "all BWW IBOs where white shirts and red or blue ties" is NO WHERE in our open! Right now, pink shirts or ties are in, and I'm bringing in the paisley. Although I had it when it was in season last year, everyone else is just catching on. (Must of hit the sales rack. I'm all for clearence items!) It has been a long time since anyone on my local team has sported a white shirt and solid tie. In fact, when our team is at functions, MANY PEOPLE point out how stylish our dress is and ask where to find the shirts and ties. HAVE FUN with clothing, and find what makes you feel good while respecting the company you are in.
On a bit of a tangent: what disturbs me is the close-mindedness of some of the so called "critics" here. I am fine with those critical of something, or those questioning and seeking answers or truth. But when you shut off a source, or a possible truth, you go from being a critic to being a cynic. And, in my mind, a cynic is worthless in any conversation or society. Remember: "A cynic is not merely one who reads bitter lessons from the past, he is one who is prematurely disappointed in the future. "
Sydney J. Harris
And
"The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing."
Oscar Wilde
Seems to fit a lot of "discussion" that goes on in the world of QBlog, huh Anon?
Again, please pardon the long post...
Brad,
That's great that dress isn't stressed as much in your LOS or in your open meetings. I can only express what I experienced. I vividly remember a Winters Ladies Leadership in which a lengthy talk on proper business dress was given. For men I feel that the rules are less stringent. But for ladies, the idea that I couldn't wear a pantsuit to a function was absurd. I felt like we were living in the 1950's. I agree that it's important to dress appropriately, and that business attire does command respect, but the ladies seemed to get the short end of the stick. The whole submission thing was taken too far when I was practically commanded to wear skirts and hose. Give me a break. I'm not saying every LOS and every team is the same, but these negative experiences unfortunately give the whole organization a bad name. Brad if your team is building it honestly and ethically, without overshadowing business with personal development and religion, I wish you the best of luck.
I just wanted to add that I was actually giving you all the chance to dispell the rumors that a certain type of dress was required at meetings and functions. The whole dress code sounded absurd to me, and I was glad to see that I was wrong to assume that I'd have to wear business attire at every get together.
Also, I was hoping for a resounding "YES," to the ideas of selling at the c-store or running an ad in the newspaper. All these things help give credibilty to the commonsense side of the business and make it look less controlling. That is a PLUS for your image.
The comment I made about my sister in law's white board comment was that I was AGREEING with her.
I's consider becoming an IBO if to help support my inlaws if I could promote using less -time consuming, practical methods. I guess I consider becoming an IBO as an action that is supportive to my inlaws, wouldn't you agree? Anon and Brad?
anoymous: Brad if your team is building it honestly and ethically, without overshadowing business with personal development and religion, I wish you the best of luck.
You're right. There a lot of older thought processes that are changing as we speak with regards to the training systems however.
I just have a problem with people who take personal preference, (the idea of wearing skirts and hose) and relating that with honesty and ethics. Its the culture of that particular team. You didn't like it so you quit. Nothing wrong with that.
I've said before that the issue is that when you're dealing with an organization who is constantly having new people getting started who are from all different walks of life, you have to teach and train at a very conservative level or else things will get out of hand as it trickles down into the group.
Women must be particularly careful because men are such idiots. FOr instance, many women are wearing these blouses that are basicaly lingerie under their pants suits. They have cleavage showing, but then they get upset when men are staring down their shirts. It goes down hill from there.
What's wrong with having standards that are bit "old fashioned" in some peoples eyes but which help to ensure an environment that promotes a more conservative lifestyle.
It wasn't for you. But it works for many others.
Xtra Energized,
I'm not talking about dressing provocatively, I'm talking about getting away from the 'Leave it to Beaver' mentality. This is 2006 for God's sake! And to speak to the comment on ethics and honesty, of course business dress is not a matter of ethics and honesty. The reason my husband and I quit goes far beyond the dress code. There were some fundamental flaws in the team we were part of that almost destroyed our marriage. If you care to hear my story, I'd be glad to share. I'm sure I'm not the norm, but it left enough of an impression that I'm wary of all IBO's because of it. It's kind of like being afraid of big dogs after you've been mauled by a doberman.
I feel that honesty and ethics are the foundation for modern business, and unfortunately, some LOS' in Quixtar, and especially in BWW have lost sight of that.
IM>I's consider becoming an IBO if to help support my inlaws if I could promote using less -time consuming, practical methods. I guess I consider becoming an IBO as an action that is supportive to my inlaws, wouldn't you agree? Anon and Brad?
B> To me, the most supportive role you could serve is as a retail customer. Have them practice servicing you as a retail customer and meeting your needs on: quality, convenience and/or cost. It is the most profit to them, and you as family could provide good feedback. The IBO role you seem to like best is Prosumer: a wholesale customer with ability to retail. (Of course you are not limited from sponsoring, ALL IBOs can sponsor, your focus would just be retailing to the sphere of influence you have that your sister-in-law does not have access).
Anonymous, I have heard many CDs from the Winter's LOS. I too found them very... "suggestive" if you can say that. Much more forceful in the duplication methods. Perhaps this is something that contributed to Britt kicking Larry out? Never the less, I would suggest you look into CDs by Kevin and Beth Bell in BWW, and their Emerald leaders. This ideology is what is spreading across BWW as they are one of the strogest diamonds in BWW. Another strong couple helping pave the way is David and Kristen Dussault in the Crowe organization. Their teaching, however, seems to stay withing the Crowe organization than really affecting everybody. David is also a great promoter of keeping things simple in rules and expectation, and duplicating it.
Never the less, I believe much of the "forced" atmosphere that you experienced from the Winter's LOS has left BWW. (Maybe not as much in Gala LOS?) but for Miller/Covington it has. I LOOKED for the "White shirt - solid blue/red tie" at my last function. I saw about 1 out of every 100-200 people. AND many of the ladies on my local team sported pant-suits to the function - MAINLY because it was COLD in there!!! And it is OK. I agree a pant suit gives a respectable business image. Some give the reason: "If you allow pant suits then next are slack then next ar jeans, and we don't want that to happen" OK, just tell people to keep it to pants suits or higher BECAUSE you don't want that happening! I say, be honest, and straightforward, and people can take care of themselves!
I hope this helped clear some things up...
Anonymous,
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. I know of a couple in my downline who is going through a divorce right now. If you ask her, its because of the business. If you ask him, its because of her own immaturity.
I know that there are some extreme circumstances, but when I usually hear of these situations, it sounds like the crack in the relationship was already there and using Quixtar as the excuse for giving up on the marriage is very convienient.
I'm saying this your case, but I've seen it with others. Let's face it, in our microwave generation, many people don't take the time to deal with learning how to be married. Its much easier to get a divorce.
I didn't say I was looking for the most supportive role, I said my actions would show support for the business rather than being aways considered negative.
I just think it would be fun playing with different marketing strategies, seeing how it does in conventional sales methods. I honestly don't know what would happen! It would be interesting to try. I probably wouldn't buy the XS for myself, but others might get into buying it since there is a market out there for energy drinks.
Christian
I am curious as to what nationality you are. Its plain as the writing on your posts, you are not American. My question is not intended to be racial or for any personal attack. I really am curious to know.
Brad and Christian
I am kind of new here so maybe you can help me out. You guys claim to be doing really well (not "good" Christian) in the business. So, I'd like to know how much you make every month after you pay off your business expenses. Yeah, I know that you can write off some of the expenses, but please be sure to include ALL expenses for my reference. And I'd like to know how many hours you have put in year to date x the numbers of years you have been in the business.
I am interested in hearing your responses. I wonder how they compare to the people in the movie. Remember the movie thats the original topic.
As for the dress code, last year (or was it this year), we got a Kate message or email stressing that business attire was required at open meetings. Basically, we were to make sure our prospects complied. (I was in BWW - technically, I still am - in the Gala organization.)
I used to wear pants to all functions, and my sponsor tried to get me to wear only skirts, but I thought that was dumb. I think he was too scared to tell me that skirts were required. I finally complied during my last function, I think after I realized that it was probably a BWW rule since I never saw any plugged in women wearing pant suits.
But in the Gala org., nice slacks were fine for home plans. In fact, in a lady's meeting when, they were showing appropriate dress, the only time the model wore a skirt was to show how to dress during functions. My upline platinum lady always wore pants during home plans.
Boy, I never thought that a simple dress code question could spark so much interest.
I gotta be honest on this one. This whole "no slacks for ladies" thing is really too much.
If I ever joined, I'd be one IBO that would "break the mold." I'm no slob by any means, but if I want to wear slacks, I'm going to go ahead and wear them, regardless of what that might lead to.
Wearing appropriate attire sounds like a common sense issue to me, but maybe there are people out there that lack common sense. For those people, I guess it is good to have quixtar there to fill them in on what's appropriate. BTW, thanks, earache, for clearing up the "doing well" versus "doing good" issue. That drives me crazy, too!
Xtra said:
Maybe the problem is with you. SOme of my most loyal XS customers and new IBOs have come from cold contacting.
How is that a "problem" with me, as you so eloquently put it? I don't like solicitation that comes out of nowhere. I'm not made of money. If I want something, I'll go out and buy it or save for it. If it's such a great deal or a must have item, I'll eventually hear about it.
I developed the skill to meet people so I don't come off as a weirdo. I'm just saying hello to people and making chit chat. If someone dosen't want to chit chat, that's their perogative. I think its funny when I run into people who get their feathers ruffled so easy.
No, you're not just making chit chat, you're soliciting people. And who says I get my feathers all ruffled. I don't mind making chit chat with people, I'm a very friendly and warm person. I'm also very talkative. But once someone throws the marketing pitch, I'll tell them they're wasting their time.
Since joining Quixtar and become such a hardcore distributor, have you ever started a conversation with a stranger ,or someone that you didn't know, that you didn't have the intention of eventually soliciting?
I must admit Fitz, when I do run across some people like you, I tend to mess with them. For instance, when I'm in the hallway at work and there are certain people who are completely anti-social, I always give them a loud and resounding "HELLO!"
Interesting. Sounds like you're the fat, loud guy at work that no one can stand. I actually make it a point to say high everyone I pass by at work...except the fat, loud guy. Is that a sophamoric thing to do? Yeah, I'll admit that, but I really don't care.
Maybe you thinks its creepy because you're creepy?
I made a Squidoo page with some movie previews. Check it out at the link below:
http://www.squidoo.com/believe_mlm_movie
Xtra Energized,
I take offense to your accusation that the business is an excuse for my marital problems. It was the cause of our marital problems. Our personal life was dictated by the business in a cult-like manner, and it drove a wedge between myself and my husband. We are much happier having left. We were victims of BWW in the worst kind of way. Most negative experiences mentioned in this blog ring true to my experience. BWW (or at least the team we were involved with)is as close to a cult as you can get. This is the fundamental flaw of Quixtar. Motivational organizations that use Quixtar as a platform to spread their corrupt agenda. BWW almost destroyed my marriage, my finances, and my relationships with my family. I was physically sick constantly from the poor nutrition and lack of sleep. I put hundreds of thousands of miles on my car and was in two accidents due to lack of sleep and dangerous driving conditions. I totalled my car driving to a Dave and Kristen Dussault rally in Columbus OH in a blizzard after being pressured by our upline to attend. We were completely sold out giving 110% to the business when we quit. I was pressured to drop out of college, to stop contact with my "negative" friends and family, and we were even instructed as to what church to attend and what particular Bible to purchase. To say that the business wasn't the cause of these problems is a lie. We were happy before and we're happy without. BWW almost destroyed us.
Anonymous,
That was exactly what happended too me. Who was your upline Diamond? Mine was Joe Markiewicz. I am not going too go into details about my situation its already on this post under other entries. I am going on vacation to the Keys for our 2 year anniversary but if I was still in the business that would be looked down on,because it would be taking away valuable time to go DIAMOND!
David,
My upline Diamond was Larry Winters, but we were on the Greg Francis Team. Congratulations on your 2 year anniversary. We also didn't take any vacations while in the business. In fact, we were married while building the business and took a short honeymoon because we needed to be back for the Thursday night open meeting. We actually attended a night owl while on our honeymoon. Now that I've quit, all the people that stood up for me in my wedding, my so called 'best friends' have yet to call to see how I am. Some friends they are.
Anonymous: you make some very harsh accusations about BWW and your involvement, and your post comes across as if you were totally a victim, and were "controlled" by someone. No, I am not making excuses for your upline, nor downplaying whatever it is you experienced, but you are reaching a line that should result in criminal punishment and is beyond just opinion and speculation of this business, thus I ask you to explain, please. Here are a few phrases I want to point out: " Our personal life was dictated by the business in a cult-like manner" and "BWW almost destroyed us."
According to these, BWW left you in a place where you had no control. I am in BWW and my question to you is this: If it is a cult, how am I able to come here and discuss? Wouldn't a cult, particularly one that "destroys" (in the active sense), 'force' me not to be here? What control, of a "cult-like" manner, does BWW have that would prevent me from coming here?
And finally, regarding your statements: generally, cult indoctrination and a following is gained by a control of time and surrounding. (And as insider points out, there are many in the psych community that do not believe choice can ever be fully taken away) Thus, I ask you: what time did you have on your own at work, or at home, away from "forced" influence of BWW? Was any of the association you were to have with upline/crossline forced or was it your choice to attend? And in what way were life choices "dictated" to you in a "cult-like" manner such that you can place blame on BWW as "destroying" your life and/or relationship during that time period?
Again, I am not downplaying some of the "suggestive" nature I too have seen in the Winter's group, but you took it a step further. I do not reject the fact that some teaching in BWW, and Winter's, can, and often is, controversial and abrasive. However, this is not cause to claim "cult," particularly a destructive and life-threatening cult, and further make your claims that things were "forced".
Thanks.
He never said it was a cult Brad. He said it was cult-like. The two are very different.
Fitz, please explain how they are "very different"?
Would you willingly join a group that has been labeled "cult-like" while avoiding something branded as an outright cult?
Again, I am not attempting to brush injusticies under the rug, but I am trying to find clarification such that her experience can be learned from WITHOUT unjustly branding IBOs' businesses that do not conduct business in the manner to which she was exposed. And since she used "BWW" as the object to be labeled - "BWW almost destroyed us" - I then suffer the fallout because I utilize BWW training and am an IBO with Quixtar, yet she has no clue how I run my business other than what she believes of my accounts and statements here.
Brad Says:
"If it is a cult, how am I able to come here and discuss? Wouldn't a cult, particularly one that "destroys" (in the active sense), 'force' me not to be here? What control, of a "cult-like" manner, does BWW have that would prevent me from coming here?"
Does your upline know you come here and discuss things? The same upline that refuses to speak about negativity and face the critics. If anything, you are not following their example of keeping their mouth shut. I would be very surprised if they allowed you here if they new about it.
Anonymous, I completely feel for you. Your situation and mine seem very similar. I was in BWW as well, and the pressure to do things "if you are serious about your business" ran rampant.
It sickens me that Brad and Insider would belittle what happened to you and pretend it didn't exist because "they have never seen it." It is the broken record of their rebuttals.
I'm glad to hear that you got through the situation with your marriage intact. A lot of branwashed ex-cult IBO's can't say that.
~Chris
Brad,
There are several types of cults and definitions of cults. Steve Hassan has a very interesting website that outlines the various types of cults. Wikipedia also documents types of cults, from religious cults we are familiar with, to political and social cults like the communist movement and some personal development organizations. Quixtar by itself is not a cult, and has defended this accusation on several occasions. That is not my accusation. BWW, on the other had, fits the definition of a cult and the characteristics of a cult well. Although there was not a physical threat on my life as is common with some cults, this is not a defining characteristic. By definition, the Amish and Mormons are cults. Here is a definition of cults in the secular context:
Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders.
"A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community."
Based on this definition, BWW does encompass many of the characteristics of a cult. We were not dictated by physical harm, but rather my psychological abuse. We were chastised for not being core (receiving condescending Kate messages) when we didn’t purchase enough products, or missed an event. Our lives were dictated by the leadership of BWW. Our upline wouldn’t help us until we were on a regular counseling schedule with him, and he wouldn’t counsel with us until we disclosed our entire financial situation with him, down to how much we tithed and where our tithe went. We were discouraged from spending time with family, and team events were often scheduled during important family events (Easter weekend, the weekend following Thanksgiving). It went so far that after we had a team, we were instructed to pull the team together after Easter to ‘undo’ any ‘negative’ thought process they may have developed while spending time with family.
If my husband wore a shirt to an open meeting that wasn’t white or blue, he’d get a Kate about it. If we didn’t make eagle volume we’d get a Kate. The abuse was not physical, but psychological in nature. So much, that upon leaving BWW, I’ve spent the first few months in ‘exit-counseling’ in an effort to get my life back. We were praised for alienating family and friends.
We couldn’t make a decision without first ‘checking upline’. We were so indoctrinated by BWW, that my husband actually asked permission from our upline (rather than my father) to ask me to marry him. We asked permission before moving into the apartment we now lease. Our upline went so far that after functions, he would baptize new believers, rather than let the church do this.
BWW played off of our insecurities, convincing us that this was our ticket. We couldn’t be successful in any other endeavor. When I refused to quit school to focus more time on the business, I became alienated within the group. Many of the ladies both upline and crossline limited their time with me. I became somewhat of an outcast.
I cannot speak to your business Brad, but this is the experience I had. Unfortunately, just as Muslims get a bad name because of some fundamentalists, you get a bad name from groups that operate this way. I am not accusing you of leading a cult, but look around. If your group exhibits any of the behaviors that would lead to cult-like status, change them. Quixtar could be a viable business if it is operated properly.
Fitz, please explain how they are "very different"?
Would you willingly join a group that has been labeled "cult-like" while avoiding something branded as an outright cult?
They're a different set of accusations, which is why I disagree with your assessment that what Anonymous has said is equivalent to slander of sorts. Calling his BWW group cult-like only means that she believes it shares certain aspects that are in line with certain practices utilized by modern cults that have been documented. I believe there is a blog that is linked on here that writes about how certain AMOs have very similar qualities to cults.
With that said, I don't believe any AMO is a cult, though several I have read about share certain qualities that would make me uncomfortable with the way they conduct business.
No, I don't believe I'd join any group labeled as a cult, or even cult-like, especially given the amount of people who've labeled it so.
I'm sorry to hear that you feel these accusations hurt your business, and it's associations with BWW. Have you done anything substantial with your upline to help reign in, or at the very least address, the abuses on regional or national level?
Fitz,
I have a question for you.
"He never said it was a cult Brad. He said it was cult-like" Please explain the difference to me. Could it be similar to saying,
"I am not saying you're rude, but rude-like."
I really don't get that response. It doesn't make any sense.
As far as dress code goes, I HATE suits! I will not wear them, period. Unless it's for court or a funeral. If anything I'll wear nice blue jeans with a dress shirt and a sharp looking black blazer. No neck ties for me.
ALso as far as contacting goes, anyone ever listen to the WWDB tape of how Brad Duncan sponsored Brad Wogamott? Brad D. was going to a "No show" meeting and stopped for gas, chatted up a guy on the next pump over who happened to be Brad Wogamott. Not a bad "no show" in my book. I've met several people at gas stations who are looking for something better. Some join, some don't!
Anon, Ever hear Britt's tape, "it's all predictable"? Lengthy subject on dress code for success. Talked about how women should dress too. Not once did he ever talk about how to duplicate your business.
Fastshutter,
Does my upline Q12 know I frequent these sites: yes. Does he know I have received documents and information from Scott Larsen directly because I could not find another source: Yes. Does he choose not to frequent these sites: YES, and that is his choice.
And you have obviously missed the part that I have repeated: I am NOT downplaying what happened, nor do I ignore it. IN FACT I am attempting to find a way for Anonymous to get across what happened and her side of it in a constructive and open nature such that all people can learn from it.
Should I say it sickens me that fastshutter, and others, belittle the fact that the business can (and is) being built differently than your experience?
You have a photography business, nothing at this site is of benefit, or harm, to you financially -- it is all pleasure or solice or something else. If internal gratification is what you seek, how are you seeking it? By helping discover truths and answers to this business, or are you trying to label and belittle IBOs and honorable business practices out of your own contempt and cynicism? Your frequent use of "Ambot" seems to lean away from constructive and helpful interaction...
Fitz: Anonymous claims BWW, as a whole, is a cult. Read her last post.
Never the less, how do statements on a blog such as this (that is obviously frequented by information seekers of "Quixtar" on google) NOT hurt my business? Further, I am doing my part. What I do, however, is not at the mercy of your judgement in any way. If you read through some posts on the forum you will see my concerns and action steps contacting Quixtar, sales managers, and upline IBOs to fix those concerns.
NOW, Anonymous, I have never received ANY threats EVER like that, and have never been denied counsel or gameplanning by my upline Q12 even, whether it be 1200AM, middle of the day, etc, based on CORE or a set schedule. Again, this is not to disprove your experience, because it doesnt, HOWEVER, given I do not suffer those same "cult-like tactics" in any level, large or small, then BWW cannot be considered a cult, it has to be much more specific than that. The group in which you were involved, Greg Francis right? (I believe someone else on the forum shares your experience) acted in cult-like fashion with disparaging remarks and Kates as a sort of disciplenary response to your action or inaction.
I do take great offense to this statement of yours: "Unfortunately, just as Muslims get a bad name because of some fundamentalists, you get a bad name from groups that operate this way."
I truely hope you do not hold this view. I find it to be a weak minded person to not be able to seperate the MAJORITY - good-hearted and value based Muslims who live a life for peace and harmony (just like most other religions) - from the minority - jihadists and extremists - in the Muslim faith. I would hope a reasonable person would realize the world is made up of individuals and judgement or preconceptions of an individual based on a skewed group image is unjust and, IMO, immoral. Such tendencies in people place barriars that block good communication and the path to answers and truth.
And, Anonymous, out of curiosity, did you seek the "exit-counseling" from Steven Hassan or from someone he/they recommended?
Brad,
You talk so highly about the Miller/Covington team. Paul Miller know theres someone you can follow. Between him and Bill Britt they really practice what they preach, especially when it comes to there marriages. Oh thats right Paul is now married to his onetime secretary. By the way Winters was not kicked out of BWW they started there own MO because of Bill and Paul. You listen too the old tapes and CDs Larry always praised Bill and Paul. Then they did what they did, and Larry and Joe and Danny and rest of winters team broke away. I am not defending Winters or Britt. I am just happy to be married to what my sponsor always called the most NEGATIVE woman on earth. I had enough of all the stuff so I quit.
Brad,
I do not hold all Muslims in the same light as fundamentalists. I also do not hold all BWW LOS' in the same light as mine. I am only attempting to explain my experience. Unfortunately, the majority (if you look at the discrimination the muslims have to endure) tends to follow stereotypes. To answer your question about exit-counseling. No, my therapy did not come from Steve Hassan or anyone affiliated with his organization. I sought out therapy after falling into depression having left BWW, at a local Christian mental health organization. It was then that my therapist walked me through getting my life back after leaving. My experience may be very different from yours. I can only give my story. I don't intend to argue with you over your business. I don't know what happens in your business. I can only tell you what I went through.
Good for you David.
Care to point out where I "talk so highly about the Miller/Covington team" particularly referencing Paul Miller?
Michael, that's a nice strawman you've built up there, and a terrible analogy at that.
Fitz: Anonymous claims BWW, as a whole, is a cult. Read her last post.
No, she didn't. She simply backed up why she felt the BWW group she was in was cult-like. You haven't even addressed the merits of what she's said, all you seem to come up with is "oh, this hurts my business, please don't say that."
Further, I am doing my part. What I do, however, is not at the mercy of your judgement in any way.
You've received much praise on here for wanting to run your business in an ethical manner. Your outright refusal to even begin to share what you have done or want to do to change the business naturally leads me to question whether you've done anything at all. In the end of course, what you say means less than what you do. Do you not believe honest feedback from current and former IBOs who want to change the way AMOs run for the better is not good for you?
Again, this is not to disprove your experience, because it doesnt, HOWEVER, given I do not suffer those same "cult-like tactics" in any level, large or small, then BWW cannot be considered a cult, it has to be much more specific than that.
That's obvious Brad. It's an illogical fallacy to assume one's experiences is something that everyone else has experienced in a system. No one has ever argued that on here.
Instead of persistantly saying "well that's never happened in my group," why don't you ask "well how can I help change that for everyone."
Great Anonymous, it's good to hear you have found help for depression. I have no interest in arguing your experience vs mine. I only ask that the blanket labeling either be very well substantiated, or removed. I appreciate your story and it is important for otherst to know that such things have happened and to watch out for them. In the same light, I believe it important that these same people know that it doesn't have to be that way and can make it different.
Brad,
You said in a post earlier to Anonymous, That all the forced issues no longer occur in the Miller/Covington team. So I added how much of a Saint LOL! Paul Miller is.
Fitz, we are of different mindsets. While I dream of such ideals as utopia and securing goodness and justice for everyone, I am realistic in knowing that given human nature: it is not possible (my favorite book: "Brave New World" you want Utopia, let's start with this method!). I can only control myself and my interaction with other people. Beyond that enters: perception, speculation, prejuduce, judgement, opinion, bias, etcetc. I cannot control that. On this blog, however, I attempt to mitigate such things by pointing out blanket statements that are untrue or can be misconstrued. I welcome others to do that with my statements as well.
Please point out where I: "outright refus[ed] to even begin to share what [I] have done or want to do to change the business"? Do you read the forums? Perhaps none of my 1000+ posts had anything to do with changing things for the better? Some topics to touch on: curiosity approach, tool profit honesty, Eagle structure and CORE.
"Do you not believe honest feedback from current and former IBOs who want to change the way AMOs run for the better is not good for you?"
I absolutely believe honest feedback is beneficial. HOWEVER I do not believe Lindy Mack's one word "SCAM" on Dateline, nor fastshutters repetition of "Ambot, nor labels of systems as "cults" or "cult-like," nor BigDogs incessent rants about illegal pyramids, to be: - from those who care to improve the AQMO's - or even honest feedback and objective analyzation as much as it is emotional perception and opinion.
The difference about a blog is no one ever truely knows "what you did" they only know what you say. And thus, words are actions and truth in this virtual realm. It is a reality of its own. Until people understand how to filter this much information and recognize truth from fiction, or hyperbole from belittlement, one must be careful how one labels or describes something because in this world, some people make it reality. In reality, BWW is not a cult, or even as a whole cult-like. Some individuals within the organization could operate their business in the way Anonymous describes, but it should be much more of a statement of that person, and/or that particular group, than all of BWW. I am merely pointing that out.
David> " all the forced issues no longer occur in the Miller/Covington team."
B> Really? care to quote where I said "ALL" the "forced issues" are not present? From my recollection I said "much of the forced atmosphere" and I also provided examples. I also clearly identified Kevin and Beth Bell as an example, and the fact I said "spreading" indicates their more relaxed, and need-specific/caring approach might not be as prevalent elsewhere.
So David, are you trying to discuss this, or are you trying to misquote me and twist it around by "adding" choice phrases and opinion?
Brad,
Relax. I am not twisting or contorting anything. I said I personally brought up Paul Miller. I used to like to listen to CDs by Kevin and Beth Bell. I really liked Eagle Mindset but like I said I had personal and financial reasons for quitting. No need to say good for me. If this biz is working for you awesome. So just because I am on here telling people what happended to me. Dont take it as a personal attack on you. I remember one major function Larry had his son's come on stage and asked them what happens if you quit this biz and stay at a J O B
Steven said: Your broke and your life sucks. The crowd erupted in cheers.
And Larry said thats my boys.
So as I have become a BROKE LOSER, I am on here to share what happended to me. So that maybe one person can take what I have posted and think before they leap. Like I did.
David,
I have heard others talk about that occurance at a function, and I do not agree with it.
I am sure that Kevin Bell has never said that, or prompted someone to say it. In fact, the last function, he made it a point to clarify why you are in a job. If you love it, and it is your passion, and you are helping others and your family, then stick with it! But if is your only means of income, you are treated poorly, or you really don't like it - there are other options.
Like I said, I actively listened this last function for 3 specific things:
- Anyone calling quitters "broke losers" or downplaying jobs.
- Great religious focus or overtones
- Politcal statements or suggestions.
I heard zero political statements, I heard jobs referenced as doing what you love and the difference between active and passive income, I did not hear "loser" in reference to those who choose not to pursue this business, or who quit, and I documented 4 accounts of religious statements: A new diamond overwhelmed with his accomplishment repeatedly thanked God and Christ, one speaker referenced Mark and the power of words, and two others briefly touched on how important their spiritual life has grown and helps their family and the business -- this was no more than a few sentences.
On the basis of those experiences, I see a difference between the Winter's LOA you and Anonymous experienced, and the current state of the Miller/Covington atmosphere.
Further, I am doing my part. What I do, however, is not at the mercy of your judgement in any way. If you read through some posts on the forum you will see my concerns and action steps contacting Quixtar, sales managers, and upline IBOs to fix those concerns.
Sorry about that Brad, I misread that. I read the forum as much as I can, but it's hard to soak up everything. Any specific instances or actions that you're particularly proud of that you'd like to point out on there?
I can only control myself and my interaction with other people. Beyond that enters: perception, speculation, prejuduce, judgement, opinion, bias, etcetc. I cannot control that.
That is very true, yet you're constantly telling people to take responsibility for their business. So if they have no control over certain aspects, how can you expect them to assume full responsibility?, especially with Quixtar's average self-reported low monthly take-home pay for an "active" distributor. Combine this with certain abusive AMOs, and that's where disaster strikes.
In reality, BWW is not a cult, or even as a whole cult-like.
This is based on your experience, yet like I've said before, it's an illogical fallacy to assume the majority of the group doesn't operate in a cult-like way based on that.
We have many ex-BWW folks on here who's stories constantly line up, yet you're just one in BWW who says otherwise on here. So what do we make of that?
Hi Fitz, let's start from the bottom up:
What do we make of the 'horror' stories? How about we find out common uplines and teams first. I have heard most reports from Winter's LOS - Greg Francis has come up more than once, and David was with Markeweicz, and Yager comes up a few times. How about BWW: Kent Allen's group? Upchurch? Riley? Youngblood? Ken and Linda Miller? Covington? Bradshaw? Bell? And there are many more... and those are just N. American! This business is much MUCH larger than a sample size of 1000 registered users on a blog/forum can statistically account for. However, multiple accounts regarding the same upline, from reasonable and level headed individuals could draw legitimate attention.
Personal responsibility: Yes, this is a HUGE thing. First, to clarify in case it is misinterpreted: the speculation/opinion etc is uncontrollable in OTHER people. Oneself can control it to a very high degree. But to point out something very important in your post is the "active" distributor. Let's define this "active" yet again: An IBO that did one or more of the following: ATTEMPTED a retail sale, attended ONE meeting, showed the plan ONLY ONCE, or received bonus money. 33% of registered IBOs were found to NOT EVEN HAVE DONE THAT!. Ok, of the 66% remaining, how many qualified by going to just one meeting, or talking to one person about a product? See, Fitz, this inaction on the part of the new IBO is the drop in personal responsibility. Furthermore, one always, ALWAYS has a choice. I am choosing to be here on the blog and respond to your comments, I choose to listen to a business CD or the radio, and I choose all other aspects of business involvement and life. Now, there may be varying levels of influence on that choice, and I do not deny this, HOWEVER, one cannot blame the influence as 100% causation and force, one must own up to the fact that some part of the decision was chosen to act, or not act, based on the situation and consequences raised. And again, I will say the "abuse" is more in the individuals than it is the IBOs. Otherwise it is the same as saying Catholicism is "abusive" because some, a few, Catholic priests coerced alter boys to molest using their fear of consequences, religious or otherwise. This is a ligitimate concern, true, but it is not an indication of causality between catholicism and sexual assault - just as CORE steps and BWW structure does not cause maxed credit cards or counseling.
I believe that personal responsibility is what can save each individual from a potentially abusive business partner (in any business) or from low take home pay. Report actions of business partners that break rules, or get clarification on rules that you believe they are breaking. And if you would like to earn more money: sell more products!
And one thing I'm looking into now? Curiosity approach. I have had a lot of discussion with Deb, and others. I whole-heartedly agree that people sense when one is trying to hide, or skirt around, something for any reason, even if that reason is in the best interest of the individual they are speaking to! However, I believe that IBOs should be very proud that they are business owners with Quixtar and are willing to service customers and/or teach others how to build a business of their own. Tap into that forum discussion if you wish, I think it is under the "Quixtar Commercials / End of the curiosity approach?" thread.
Brad, I agree with the importance of personal responsibility. But, just as there are those folks out there who don't have the common sense to dress appropriately to be taken seriously and follow some LOS's advice on suitable (not pun intended!) attire, there are people who will follow their upline's advice about success and life in general, to the T. And, even if the advice isn't logical, it seems to be taught as just another persective or mentality. (the consumer vs. business mentality, consumer versus prosumer, etc.)
So, now you've got someone whose self esteem wasn't the greatest to start with, who is convinced that their upline is there to watch out for them and their welfare and has acquired a group of instant friends.
Can't you see how actions taken by an LOS such as BWW can have a cult-like effect on an insecure individual?
(And no, comparing cult-like to rude-like is not an accurate analogy. Cult is a noun, rude is an adjective. It doesn't work.)
IM, you are taking it one step further which requires analysis of intent. Of all the IBOs I have met personally, and online, I have never encountered one with intent to deceive, trap, trick or otherwise take advantage of an individual in the methods you are suggesting. (not saying they don't exist, I'm sure out of 1.5 million worldwide, there are more than a couple). Although I understand your point, and an individual is taken advantage of by someone in a stronger position -- but that happens every day in the "job world" to individuals that don't know any better. I say this after reading this statistic on lotteries: "Overall, 27% of respondents said that their best chance to gain $500,000 in their lifetime is via a sweepstakes or lottery win, the survey said." -- http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/RetireEarly/WhyPoorPeopleWinTheLottery.aspx
So even showing them another way could save this 27% from a bleek financial outlook...
I would, however, like to get into this intent and, further, see what particular "business mindset," according to you, has a cult-like effect and is purpetuated in an LOA but not taught or practiced in normal business and entreprenuership. This is better suited for the forum.
What about uplines taking responsibility for giving stupid, even destructive advice? How about BWW taking responsibility for allowing crap to happen among its ranks and facilitating and encouraging this crap from speeches on stage, on CDs, and in various meetings?
It is not up to wronged ex-IBOs to protect your business from a bad reputation or to make your job as an IBO easier for you. It is up to the AQMOs to clean their acts up. Then, there would be few complaints.
Brad and the rest of you pro-Q people -- you cannot change the mindset of these people. They have all had the same or similar bad experiences.
Eventually you will too. Or at least there is a 13,999 in 14,000 chance that you will.
And then you will come over to the other side of the argument.
So examine that 13,999:14,000 stat and relax a bit on your fiery debate. Winning an argument online is like winning a gold medal at the special olympics. Even if you win you are still retarded.
What about uplines taking responsibility for giving stupid, even destructive advice?
It's not just that, but the fact that uplines are double dipping here. The AMOs will continually say the only way to achieve is to follow the system, which they make money off of. So if you succeed, they say it's because of the system, and they make money off of that. But when you don't succeed they tell you just need to keep following the system, and they're still making money off of the IBOs.
The problem is that there is this belief that success is directly proportional to how hard you work, or worse, the belief that all you need to do is keep putting your time in and you'll succeed. This is NOT always true. There are so many other tangible factors that go into being a distributor, but the company line seems to either be "they quit because they couldn't handle it" or "they didn't work hard enough."
And yes, we all know that you can sell tools back, but from stories like Mevi has posted, it's not that easy.
@earache
Im born in philippines, but i grew up in indonesia, but im a canadian citizen..so..figure that one out
Around 1k/mo.
Business expenses
around 90 (site, kate, bizinator)
$18 for the stupid Standing order..which is somehow required even though ive never listened to any of it O_o. But for bsms/tools (like the ones i actually choose) give or take 20-35/month.
Hours
10-15hrs/week (my pearl says so). Typical 1 boardplan/week (2hrs + 1hr). And 1 from me (2hrs + 1hr). Then the rest are just thrown around. I dont count the 30min drive, cuz if i do, then EA owes me 2hrs/day.
If you count prospecting as part of the business..then thats 24/7 =p. I prospect whenver, wherever..but i dont go out of my way to prospect
Rara, a little snippy here aren't you? You know just as well as anyone else that the complaints available, even when combining AmQuix, QBlog and mlmsurvivor, still represent a very very small percentage of IBOs. Each complaint rife with perception, opinion, and emotion. Again, I do not wipe the slate clean of individuals in any system doing wrong, however, I do seek a middle ground.
redbird1, nice to see a post from ya! Regarding your 13,999:14,000 -- you are ASSUMING that every individual has a "success level" of diamond or above, and anything below that is "failure". Thus, you are placing judgement and your own personal metric onto other people and their goals. There could very well be a very satisfied 4000 PV IBO that retails 3000PV and has one downline that retails as well. Look for posts by Insider to address your fallicy. If you choose not to read it, I point you to JoeCool, he shares your view and you'll probably hit it off!
Fitz, I agree more emphasis should be placed on profit/loss statements, goal sheets matching a business plan of sorts, and more "business like" accounting teaching and expectation. (I do this myself with guidence from my Q12) However, all this information is available through the training system, it just may not be in a ratio you approve. Regarding returning tools: so you just completely ignore my repeated example of my Q12 that has accepted CDs from me on many occasions, and has accepted tools up to 2 years after purchase? And you believe that out of 3 million worldwide IBOs it is the sole case?... And considering Mevi changed his tune about what he was so passionately angry about before meeting Brad, it leads me to believe his experience was not the norm in WWDB.
Brad,
You are just repeating insider's spin. There is a real, huge problem and I think you would do well to just accept it. You've listened to the CDs and heard them from stage. I believe you know it deep inside you.
Brad said ; "redbird1, nice to see a post from ya! Regarding your 13,999:14,000 -- you are ASSUMING that every individual has a "success level" of diamond or above, and anything below that is "failure". Thus, you are placing judgement and your own personal metric onto other people and their goals."
While people may have different goals, there must be a reason for the saying "Go Diamond". I would imagine when prospects first sign up as Q* IBO's their goal, is indeed, to "Go Diamond". While someone's goal may only be 4,000PV a month, I'd think most IBO's goal would be to "Go Diamond" and the likelyhood of that is 1:14,000. Not very good odds.
When prospects are first shown the plan, or listen to the tapes, even IBO's who go to rallies and functions, all the talk is about "financial freedom" and, being able to retire, leave their J.O.B, and being able to spend time with their family, and travel.
They are shown the luxury lifestyle Diamonds live.
I can't imagine too many people join Q* with the idea of making $500 a month (gross).
People join Q* with the idea of "Going Diamond" and, unfortunately for them, their chances are very, very slim.
BigDog, I see your point, and I don't disagree that the "diamond lifestyle" is being promoted. However, remember listening to some CDs and hearing what people wanted when they got in? "I just wanted $200-300 extra a month" "If I could be shown to make a few $100 a month I know I could do more" "When I saw the plan, I saw my boat payment of $400 a month." Now, do some uplines and CDs push "going diamond" beyond what the individual might want? Sure, I wont argue that. I would add that I believe their intentions to be good in most cases. But check out Ron Puryear's tape "Basics of the Business" RP681 - he mentions meeting people at their needs: product support is a customer, wholesale price and a couple hundred a month - prosumer (non-core IBO, crazy a Triple would promote a NONCORE IBO), possibility for $2000/mo or six-figures a year: core IBO. The teaching is there to help anybody at any goal level.
And rara: I know there are problems, and there always will be - that's human nature - however we disagree on how "huge" it is. I fear that judging a problem from a website such as QBlog, or AmQuix, or mlmsurvivor, DOES fit the metaphor of walking into a downtown hospital and trying to speculate on how many people are sick in the neighborhood. 100 people walk in with the flu: pandemic? well, could be... but analyze it further and while it is still a problem, it isn't automatically as widespread as it would seem.
But rara, how about we point out the "huge problem". Perhaps a thread on it? This blog isn't meant for this type of discussion and back-and-forth, I don't think.
Hey guys,
Anyone in the Twin Cities area who are not current WWDB IBO's, I have 2 free guest Tickets for F.E.D. if anyone would like to go. Doors open at 7:00PM at the Target Center tonight.
Leonard Kim is speaking this weekend- the guy who broke 222 Diamonds in 1 year in South Korea.
Korea? I think their still under amway, and i heard they also sign a contract that they have to reach a certain level within a year
"I can't imagine too many people join Q* with the idea of making $500 a month (gross)."
You can't imagine... so, you are not a dreamer it implies. A dreamer imagines and acts upon his dreams. His opposite does not. Seriously, who are you to talk on behalf of 6.5 billion people living on Earth that most of them can not imagine making 500 dollars per month by owning a Quixtar powered business? You imply that because you can not, nobody else can. I personally know some people with that same stinky mentality. You are just another statistic amid the broke people out there. If you have the same attitude towards your job then you will certainly make less than 500 dollars on every paycheck you get. But to keep matters simple, you will be fired.
"People join Q* with the idea of "Going Diamond" and, unfortunately for them, their chances are very, very slim."
You just proved what you said together with what you said before. Your chance was very, very slim but not 100%. Thus you had a choice to make. Obviously you chose the 99.9% chance of not making it. How easy a choice that is for one and all! Remember what the Bible says in the New Testament "for large is the gate that leads to destruction but very narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life". Attack me now if you can.
Christian Anton,
Do you believe success in Quixtar is directly proportional to the amount of hard work you put into the business, or how much time you spend on it? Is this the same for all types of business? If not, what separates doing business as a Quixtar IBO from other business ventures?
Brad,
You can keep arguing it all you want. You aren't going to sway anyone. Although you are right, a lot of people can make money without going diamond.
So change your chances to a 13000:14000 failure rate. It still sucks. It would beehove you to realize this.
Fitz, besides the fact that you can not even spell a simple name consisting of somewhere around 5 letters, I will not accuse you of mispelling my name however, let me comment on what you said so to clarify what is not so clear still.
"Do you believe success in Quixtar is directly proportional to the amount of hard work you put into the business, or how much time you spend on it?"
Of course that success is directly proportional to the amount of hard (and smart) work together with the "I can do it" attitude. If you assign the conotation of how much time you spend on doing Quixtar, the page flips to another chapter. Here, it is implied that you just hang around instead of just doing what is required of you to build a solid Quixtar powered business. Thus, the first hypothesis is true and that can be easily verified by formulating the following argument: "Do you believe success in any job is directly proportional to the amount of hard work you put into the job, or how much time you spend on it?" Therefore,this argument holds true for any venture one pursuits.
Hey red,
"So change your chances to a 13000:14000 failure rate. It still sucks."
What are your chances if you quit?
I'd rather have the 1:14000 ratio, than a 0:14000 ratio any day.
95% of people that get into any MLM quit. So what? What does that have to do with anything? People are still getting into MLM just as fast as people are getting out.
I don't get those stats. It's like you're saying, "what's the use of even trying?". I don't buy into that. It could be a 1:140,000 success ratio for all I care. You're just trying to get people to buy into your self defeat.
All I can ask is Why?
"What are your chances if you quit?"
Gosh, we'll I guess the time and money you waste on that could be spent better.
*Like on opportunities that have a better the 13000:14000 probability.
*Like putting in a few extra hours at work.
*Like working a second job and investing the extra revenue.
*Like working and giving back to the community.
All of these ideas require LESS and pay out MORE than your 1 in 14000 idea.
While it is true that not all IBOs strive to become a diamond, a fair number of them do, and in fact there are many indicators that diamond in the ultimate goal.
The 2-5 year plan is a plan to go diamond. The diamond lifestyle is what's portrayed as success. Quixtar sponsors a "go diamond" weekend at Disneyland. IBOs walk around saying "all I need is six".
I think indeed for many, the lure of the diamond status indeed makes it the ultimate goal of most.
Meh..my main goal at the moment is to be maing atleast 4k/mo before i turn 23. At my current rate, ill be done faster =). After that..ill keep going if i feel like it..in which i probably will..
Probability... schambility...
By itself the ratio means nothing without comparison.
So, let's see: 1 in 14 (that's FOURTEEN, *NOT* fourteen thousand) household in US is millionaire. Any business opportunity, in my opinion, has to be better than that odds. Otherwise, I'll just stick being the general household, thank you very much.
Christian,
Just curious. To what do you attribute your success? You seem like one who isn't messing around with all the personal development side of the business and get down to the brass tacks with the product.
You could possibly be my role model! ( Although I don't "blaze." )
Hey moderator, care to get this topic back to Believe the Movie? I just got back from seeing the movie at the AMC 30 in a Detroit suburb. I enjoyed the story, but I don't think it's going to find any audience.
My wife and I were the only ones in the theater at the 7:35pm show. Of course it was competing with the Tigers playing against the A's...apparently we won. ;)
I've never been an IBO, just an advocate against the AMOs. The 'kingpin' in the story had a slight twist that I haven't read anywhere in the AMOs drama/debate.
The Cinderella in the story essentially was a puppet; he was given the success because he had drawing power. The only similarity I've read in the real world might be the Andy Andrew's saga with Team in Focus. I would challenge ANY Q advocate to search YouTube with "Andy Andrews" + Quixtar. It's an interesting story.
The lack of an audience tonight tells me this: people don't care about critics of Amyway/Quixtar, and the critics who sincerely care about their friends and loved ones who fall for the 'dream building' won't be able to use this movie to bring them back.
Do I recommend the movie? Sure, but that won't get people in the seats. I don't have enough influence with people unfamiliar with the A/Q debate. For those in the debate, see above comments.
Moderator - perhaps a new topic should be started on "I've seen the movie, here's what I think..."?
Cheers!
/lurk mode on/
@inquiringmind
Just be social? Go to parties? Hang around with the people that have jobs (specially near coffee shops?..Energy drinks =p). I'll usually meet someone who likes the products, and ill viral from there. They like the products, cool, theyll tell someone the products (i have a hookup with movie tickets and videogames, so thats 2 of my incentives).
Dont get me wrong though, im into the personal development..im not just as into it as others cuz, other than just turning 20, i kinda wanna stay young i guess.
Heres an update from my gf: She was approached by someone doing Avon, and she just suddenly turned the tables around by showing the artistry catalogue and the big fat choices catalogue..i wish people would approach me like that >.
FYI: I dont think youd want me as a role model. If you met me as a friend, youll probably consider me a bad influence. Like this weekend, i blazed up before watching jack@$$2 (were not allowed to swear right?) and i tried to go up the movie theater through the seats instead of the stairs..bad idea. Fell and my left leg has a long cut on it >.
Its out already? I wanna see it! I tried youtube and its not there..just 2 parts of it
Uh, i went to the site and read the "horror stories". I hope people who read those wont judge and say everyone of us is like that..as for the girl that lost his bf..i feel sad that its her first break up O_o...
I still wanna see the movie =p
it's sad what happened with anonymous. and i mean that sincerely. i've been involved with this business for 4 years now(on the markiewicz team) but have been to many different teams' meetings and functions. i've never heard of or seen anything anywhere like what some of these people are talking about with BWW.
i'm not saying stuff like that doesn't happen cus i've heard some of the stories too. but it's pathetic to judge the whole business off of a few people's stories and off of what a few teams do in their business.
every business, no matter how good it is, is gonna have some ady people.
oops, meant to say shady people
But how would you know if shady people are not the majority and the good people in the business are the exception? Seems like there are the same shady practices in almost all of the LOS's.
Thats something stupid quixtar has to deal with faster. They need to do something about the morons that get in >.
i totally agree with u on that christian. it's not like people get in and turn stupid because of quixtar. they need to look in the mirror when their problems catch up to them in their business.
and joecool, if the majority of people involved with it were shady, don't u think more people would've noticed by now and gotten out instead of so many people still getting in? i think that says enough right there.
Well Bigred,
Quixtar's got a more than 50% dropout rate. Does that mean quixtar people are shady?
Lots of parents want their kids to get a degree, yet there are so many people with degrees that dont get the job they want as there are too many educated people...whats your point O_o?
You hear most about the shady people cuz their exposed. But you rarely hear about the good guys. Just like most people are easy to find everything wrong but has a hard time finding atleast half the good.. =p
Hey BIGRED,
What team under Markiewicz are you on?
I was on the Scovern team.
Christian.
All it really takes is for a few influential people to be shady and all their downline hears and duplicates what they teach.
I'd love to see the movie. They could probably make a mini series out of it... I could give them lots of material...
Posted by: Willy | October 9, 2006 3:41 AM