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September 19, 2006
Name It Claim It
By Preston in A/QMOs
One thing that struck me as interesting when I was involved with WorldWide Dreambuilders was the unique spin on which they took on the scriptures and teachings of the Bible. On numerous occasions I was told to "Speak it into existence" and "Name it and Claim it". I even purchased a book from the book list which was about 100 pages about the very topic of the power of "positive confession" and speaking things into existence (the books name escapes me at this moment).
Sitting in Church this past Sunday, my Pastor began his sermon with a reading from the Gospel as usual, then went on to explain how he had been told about a Time Magazine article on the cover this issue: Does God Want You to Be Rich?. As I listened to his sermon (mp3), I was taken back to some of the "functions" and "night owls" I was at when I was in "The Business". I was delighted to hear yet another perspective on just how false such things are. He gets at something that bothered me heavily when I was in - the fact that the speakers use scriptures and proclaim it as the Word of God that we might be rich to do good things. This is not the case - and Mr. X proved this in his blog as he went through the BWW training system and compared the cult like aspects of them.
I encourage you to listen to the sermon and comment back - in my opinion the religious side of the "business" is one of the most interesting topics to discuss, and it may get more interesting with the accreditation removing the influences of "God" from the "success" of Quixtar.
Comments
Good point Mike. Why don't we rely on the WORD (Bible) vs. relying on a speaker on stage to tell us what God wants from us?
I'm in this business & believe strongly it's a great opportunity. But not everybody is meant to be in it. And not everybody who is part of it is meant to be rich.
I believe teaching is an honorable & noble career. However, I can tell you, I am not meant to be a teacher and I have no desire to be a teacher. I would suck at it! ;-)
Just sharing some thoughts....
I often wonder how we could take the word of one man (Jesus) and his 12 disciples & mix it up & screw it up so badly. We humans have made it very confusing & complicated. I believe finding a good BIBLE Based church & lots of prayer & studying the WORD is the way to go.
This business is a legit opportunity. One that doesn't necessarily have to do with any religion. IBO's just need to make sure they run it that way.
Thanks for "listening"...
I'm no theologian, but those books and 'sermons' they gave as business meetings sounded very 'Word of Faith'
I believe the name of the book was "Hung by the Tongue" or something similar. As a WWDB member, I read them all too. And I can honestly say that the business and all the religious rhetoric that was woven into it (by design) actually did more damage to my faith than to enforce it. I was exposed to more new age ideals under the guise of Christianity - I"m still, several years later, sorting out the BS.
Michael Phoenix has a valid point in his post, and those of us who label ourselves Christians should take note.
The problem is of course that there is no "religious side to the business". Anyone adding that on is blatantly breaking Quixtar's rules, as the Quixtar Accreditation system has made very clear. You are thus not talking about "the business" at all, your talking about what people do with the business. Feel free to talk about that all you want, but as an atheist I am offended when you talk about religion being a "part of the business". It's against the rules, it's not anything I have experienced and indeed it is not anything I would tolerate.
Religion may be nowhere to be found on Quixtar.com, but it is found at meetings at all levels.....however, as Christians, it was this very twisting of scripture at meetings we attended from May-July of this year that put up the red flags for us that this is not something we want to bring other people to. After getting off the standing order, we seemed to see the truth of the business and the lack of profitability of building it much more clearly. Even the elect can be deceived.
Is was kind of interesting because I was a distance leg in WWDB and I remember always hearing them say at the functions "you need to goto a bible teaching church."
So i found one. Many of the things being taught at this church contradicted what the speakers in WWDB would teach. Eventually I started to read the Bible and found out that WWDB speakers would take one verse from the Bible and manipulate it to suit there speech.
But due to my experiences with WWDB, I did start going to church and have an awesome walk with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Viktor
www.cornerstonesimi.com
www.juststopandthink.com
To INSIDER:
Well guess what - WWDB DID introduce & weave religion (and politics I might add) into almost every single aspect of the business - this includes home meetings, small functions, large functions, KATE, CORE, etc. etc. etc. We couldn't EAT when with anyone in the group without praying. And the prayers were for prosperity of our business, not for the benefit of others.
And yes, on one hand we were strongly encouraged to attend a bible-based church (but NOT Catholic!!) - while at the same time cautioned not to get too involved in serving because it would take the focus away from our business!
So please, INSIDER, do not insult my intelligence. Mixing religion & politics has ALWAYS been against Quixtar rules, but has never stopped any of them. And yes, I DID report it to the corporation. Nope, never heard a word back.
We still laugh about the time when we were at a seminar and a founders platinum got up said that at the final judgement day, God would ask us how many people we got into the business.
That was LMAO funny!
o how do I love passionate Catholic services...
Ok, so to me, this Father is a pretty ardent critic against Joel Olsteen and the "movement"... and here is where I side with atheists and agnostics: Why is it so difficult for some people to accept religion? Because is religion not just the human interpretation of a text written many years ago, by the hand of man, in the context of a world far from that of today?
Point is: in this Father's [i]interpretation[/i] suffering is the way to salvation. Ok, I don't disagree that those who believe "worldly riches" will make God love them, that is ridiculous to me. HOWEVER, this Father ASSUMES that this "movement" places worldly riches, or wealth, as a stepping stone or sign of God's love, and it is placed BEFORE the understanding and acceptance of the love of God and Christ. This is HIS ASSUMPTION. What if we reversed the order, take Rich and Jay for instance: they are very Christian men, and are unashamed to be vocal about it and live lives to serve God and their beliefs of him and Christianity, but they are also billionaires... it would seem this Father would claim that they are seeking to "gain the whole world" when maybe, just perhaps, they placed God first and with the gifts, and peace, and understanding God gave them, they were able to create wealth for themselves, their families, and their city etc?
So basically, I do not think it is bad to be wealthy and Christian. I do think it's bad to place wealth before God. But in the order as it is taught in this "movement" from what I can tell (ie the religion from WWDB speakers Preston speaks of) it is: God, Family, Business. Keep that priority, love and serve your neighbors, then I don't think being wealthy and attributing that wealth to God's grace is necessarily bad or wrong.
And just a little twist for you to think about: How do you know this Father is right and Joel is wrong? Who are YOU, you human, mortal, one to say one is right and one is wrong in the world of the supernatural and of God's laws, have the insight or pride enough to say you are right? I say this because I was greatly disturbed at this Father's divisive nature in driving a wedge between those that believe and follow Joel, and those that believe and follow him. That to me is a little pretentious and ridiculous. No where was there a hint of understanding or clarification. Where did the love and acceptance of other's go? (This is the same problem I have with many fundamentalist Christian teachings.)
A Mom & Viktor,
I have attended a number of bible based churches (including Catholic) & watched a few shows (Joel, Joyce, etc.) and have never experienced straight-out contradiction with what I've heard from stage, CD's or from our upline diamond.
The problem I have seen relates to what Brad eluded to. It's peoples' interpretations & perceptions of the Word. Some people actually believe that the more you suffer, the closer you are to Heaven. Some believe that money is evil.....when we all know that money is an inanimate object & it's the LOVE of money that is a sin.
All of it is God's. If a person has been faithful, committed, diligent to his/her faith, served others, followed God's commandments, perhaps God chooses to bless them with financial wealth.
If a person has been a good steward of a small amount of money, perhaps God wants to see what they would do with larger amounts of money.
It's all His. It's what we do with it that matters.
Disenchanted,
Scriptural & spiritural talk is incorporated throughout meetings, speeches, etc. I personally love having the Lord as part of everything I do because He gave me everything I have! However, I believe the MO's are backing way off of "religious" talk & are sticking to more motivational (sometimes they are one & the same) and product oriented teaching.
Either way, IBO's need to learn this one simple message: Be CORE. Other than that, take what works for you & leave the rest behind.
A Mom - I've been going to meetings for 7 years and never encountered "religion" at any level of meeting. Different groups operate differently
Disenchanted IBO - where did I ever say WWDB didn't do those things? Why is it you seem to think, out of the millions of IBOs, the dozens and dozens of systems, there can only be your experience and my experience, and one of them has to be right and one of them has to be wrong.
If WWDB was intertwining religion with the business, then it is WWDB doing the religion part - not "the business". I've had people tell me you have to be all religious to be involved with this business, and refuse to even look at it. Why do they say this? Because they believe the all encompassing statements folk make on the internet.
I'm an atheist. I've never had religion shoved down my throat at any Network Twentyone meeting. If it was "the business" it would be happening at all business meetings wouldn't it? Like "A Mom" incorrectly claims?
Have some respect for people with different experiences than yours and people who run their businesses differently to what you experienced.
We couldn't EAT when with anyone in the group without praying.
LOL - Yeah I rmember, that thing, "Grace". Once in 1000 PV leadership I dig into my plate. How would I know "grace" would be given in our Indian LOS? When I finished the meal grace was just finished every body was glaring at me and no one else have started yet......
I've had people tell me you have to be all religious to be involved with this business, and refuse to even look at it. Why do they say this? Because they believe the all encompassing statements folk make on the internet.
Or....there are many, many LOS that do run the business that way. Is it wrong to say that on internet? As you said
Have some respect for people with different experiences than yours
Yup, we're telling our experience. Not your super dooper magical LOS.
I was in the business for three years, and each and every meeting involved some level of preaching from stage. I don't know about other LOS's, but Internet Services Group (Dexter Yager's line) was fundamentalist, Word and Faith, name it claim it, cult-like Christianity. I heard Dexter slam all sorts of minorities from stage, all in the name of "Christianity", which pretty much contradicts what Jesus would have done, if I've read Scripture correctly.
But here's the real problem with the "system" and in my humble opinion, with all MLM businesses: when you make a relationship with another person a profit center, then you're using people to achieve financial gain. Contrary to what is taught in MANY MLMs, not just Quixtar, it is NOT serving others to help them "build a business."
INSIDER said: If WWDB was intertwining religion with the business, then it is WWDB doing the religion part - not "the business". I've had people tell me you have to be all religious to be involved with this business, and refuse to even look at it. Why do they say this? Because they believe the all encompassing statements folk make on the internet.
Or by experience. Ever think that maybe these folks who refuse to look at it have heard the same experience from more than one person? You are correct - if one group does it, one person experiences it. If MANY groups do it, then MANY will have the same experience. If your group doesn't, then good for them! This from Quixtar FACTS:
We believe those who have legitimate issues with Quixtar, Independent Business Owners (IBOs), or aspects of our business should contact the company for assistance. We offer a number of consumer safeguards, including customer satisfaction guarantees on all products available through Quixtar and all training and support materials sold by IBOs. Also, Quixtar actively enforces its business rules, investigating all complaints brought to its attention by unsatisfied consumers and taking necessary actions. We cannot take action and resolve issues that are aired online but never formally brought to our attention.
Yet, when contacted several times about differnt aspects of religion & politics (via phone, letter, email, etc.) being such a part of the business, I received no response what so ever. These were legitimate complaints, brought to their attention through THEIR OWN ESTABLISHED PROCESS. But they really didn't care about my experiences and those of many who contacted them. That, my friend, is endorsement by denial of the problem. The company has a long standing, established pattern of ignoring what they know is going on that is against their so called rules. That's MY problem with Quixtar.
And that, Disenchanted IBO, is in my view a legitimate complaint on your part. Beth Dornan on her blog has indicated the company is setting up better mechanism to deal with complaint resolution. The Quixtar Accreditation process directly addresses these type of issues. It most definitely has not been handled well in the past. It's looking as if it will be handled better in the future - let's hope so.
I hate to put a damper on the Catholic bashing, but my pastor isn't Catholic :-)
The URL clearly says "Mt View Lutheran"
Yes, hung by the tongue
My experience (WWDB):
We were told you basically cannot succeed without religion in your business. Our upline (and at functions) kept pressing how important it was to be involved in church, but not to a degree where it would prevent you from building the business.
They also told us to vote republicn because it was better for wealthy business owners. Even if 98% of the audience were working stiffs, they said to vote republican because it will pay off when your business gets big.
This may not happen in all groups, but for sure it did in WWDB and BWW.
INSIDER -christian business mens magazine featured Jim Dornan back in 1998 he stated that GOD had a huge influence in his business and families direction.
Preston, my apologies if my statement came off as "catholic bashing" and that I missed the Mt View Lutheran part. I didn't intend any negativity towards one religion or another.
aeroporte: I am missing where it is significant that an IBO of any level comments in a Christian publication as evidence his group mixes religion with business?... I think it is great he has involvement in his faith as well as success in his business.
Brad-I read the article -have you? Dornan talks about the christain influences in the amway business( amway at that time) and as a note -all of the yager functions I attended always began with a prayer. there is plenty of evidence of business and religion mix
Provide a link to the article and we can all read it.
And again, statements about Amway and its influences in a Christian magazine is not evidence that there are Christian statements in Amway/Quixtar...
And your experience in the Yager shows there was a mixture of business and religion in your experience. And I do not think anyone is saying there is absolutely NONE of it... I am just saying you cannot apply your experience to all systems and IBOs worldwide. I also would like to point out Quxitar Accreditation and their direct address of business and religion being seperate. Things are being done to fix what you disagree with.
Brad,
In your experience, is religion and/or politics emphasized in any of your functions and meetings?
I think insider is the only person I have read of who has said that religion and politics were never a part of his Quixtar/AQMO experience.
As I am part of BWW and Bill Britt has been at every function I have been to, religion and politics have been present.
In my experience, however, from my diamond down there is a distinct absence from that same religious or political over-tone or "pressure" which is very reassuring for me. I am also very cognizant of the PDAP and am active in voicing those guidelines.
I believe the strong religious and political statements and overtones found in BWW, and supposedly in the experience of WWDB and Yager, detract from the growth of the business in the US and Canada. N21 international HAS to be more accepting because it covers a lot of different countries. I doubt BWW conducts itself the same internationally as it does in North Carolina. If anyone knows, I am curious.
The TIME article? It is subscription only, so republishing is a no-no...
I was in the Gala org. The big pins are almost exclusively Indians. There is one diamond couple from Sri Lanka (or was it Bangladesh - I think it may be Bangladesh), though. Since all the big pins were Hindu, and the organization was really diverse (outside the majority Indians, that is, and white people were almost a rarity), religion wasn't really emphasized, except at during the Sunday service. They would just mention the importance of God in life and how they were grateful to Him, and things like that, which I didn't mind. And it seems that they couldn't care less about politics. (A lot of us foreigners are like that. ;))
It was when the the white big pins came that they started talking about how we must vote republican, etc. etc., yada yada. There was some seriously right wing stuff. Of course, they dared not talk about being a Christian to a crowd of people who were moslty non-Christian. But on their CDs, they talked about "Christianity" and God a lot.
What I found interesting though is that if I wasn't sure that the diamonds were Hindu, I would have thought they were Christians from the way they talked. They always wanted to thank God (I thought Hinduism was a polytheistic religion) and they had some of the other (sometimes pseudo-)Christian jargon down pat. Words like faith and godliness, used in a distinctly Christian way.
But I am not really familiar with Hindu practices, and I'm curious, if anyone knows, is thanking God (singular) normal for Hindus?
aeroporte - which just goes to show the integrity of the man doesn't it? He holds those beliefs about his life and his business, as is his right, but he doesn't push his beliefs down the throats of people who attend N21 seminars, and indeed people invited to speak at N21 seminars are not allowed to do so either. If they'd started a N21 seminar with a prayer when I was there, I would have got up and walked out.
Brad,
I was part of BWW for almost three years, in the Winters LOS. There wasn't a single aspect of the business that didn't focus on religion. At one point we were instructed on what particular Bible to purchase, and what to look for in a church. Ultimately, it was the false teaching that drove me away from the business. It was less about making money and selling products, and more about "furthering the kingdom". I don't have anything against witnessing, and am a professing Christian, but there is something fundamentally wrong with the BWW LOS and their take on religion. Kenneth Copeland and Fred Price and many other 'Word-Faith' ministers were promoted, further skewing the truth. We were praised more for bringing someone to a function that would 'get saved' on the 'optional' Sunday morning service (if you didn't want to go you better enjoy yourself outside the stadium, there was no other option) than for sponsoring or breaking new pins. If we wanted to have a counceling session with an upline (following the eagle program), they wouldn't even sit down with us until they knew that we were tithing (most of us tithing to Kenneth Copeland Ministries). It is my experience that the entire Winters/Francis LOS operates this way.
I agree that the religious focus of the business detracts from the actual 'business', but it doesn't seem to stop them. Until Quitar realizes what's going on in large LOS's I don't think the problem will only continue.
Anon,
Let me give an example of what I heard from Bill Hawkins.
People often say money is the root of evil, but actually the bible says for the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.
His speech goes into how an inanimate object cannot be evil such as his marker pen or money but what someone does with it could be for good or could be for evil.
The bible verse he refered to is 1 Timothy 6:10. Now if we are to look at the the entire passage on the subject it would actually start with 1 Timothy 6:3-10.
Let me quote it below:
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
How many times have you heard from stage or tape that God is going to bless your business because your building the business by the spiritual law of sowing and reaping? How many time have you heard on stage or tape that by building the business you can get finacially free(get rich) so you can have any car you want, have mutiple house in differnet place, go on trips around the wrold,ect?
I honestly think the passage speaks for itself but if you would like we can further break it down. Our focus as Chistians should not be money but God. Our job is to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to every corner of this planet.
Viktor
www.cornerstonesimi.com
www.juststopandthink.com
Anon,
Let me give an example of what I heard from Bill Hawkins.
People often say money is the root of evil, but actually the bible says for the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.
His speech goes into how an inanimate object cannot be evil such as his marker pen or money but what someone does with it could be for good or could be for evil.
The bible verse he referred to is 1 Timothy 6:10. Now if we were to look at the entire passage on the subject it would actually start with 1 Timothy 6:3-10.
Let me quote it below:
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
How many times have you heard from stage or tape that God is going to bless your business because your building the business by the spiritual law of sowing and reaping? How many time have you heard on stage or tape that by building the business you can get financially free(get rich) so you can have any car you want, have multiple house in different place, go on trips around the wrold, ect?
I honestly think the passage speaks for itself but if you would like we can further break it down. Our focus as Christians should not be money but God. Our job is to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to every corner of this planet.
Viktor
www.cornerstonesimi.com
www.juststopandthink.com
I left the business the day after Bob Durling told me that the Holy Spirit told him that I don't love my wife becuase I was not building the buisness fast enough.
Religion is all over BWW, including every plan I have ever seen (and given).
Make no mistake, IBO's LOVE their money.
fastshutter,
From your description of him, it seems Bob Durling was a little off his rocker. Talk about getting it done, no matter what it takes. Really, *no matter what it takes.*
fastshutter - you mentioned religion was a part of every plan you saw and showed. Does this mean you were pretty much actively discouraging anyone with a different theology from you joining your business? If you'd shown the business to me, and I'd told you I was an atheist, what would your reaction have been? How would you have shown the plan?
For everyone out there that thinks religion is in the business, they are wrong. Quixtar claims no affiliation to any religion. All meetings, seminars, functions are held as part of the training system and are completly optional. Tools are the same way. They even have a disclaimer on the end. Also when you register as an IBO you have to sign or confirm that you know that the training and everything envolved is optional. In the functions I have attended yes I have seen religious views and politacal views expressed. One persons opinion should not effect you. Some people that posted before commented on Christian leaders like kenneth copeland. He has a great ministry, so how is it that you can dog him and people for supporting him. If you upline is Christian the want to know if you are tithing b/c it is the only way to have the promises that are laid out in the Bible. I also disagree that the diamonds love there money. They are greatful that they have it and give more to ministries than a lot of people make in a lifetime. All that they have they sahre with the team. I am in the winters los and proud of it.
Anonymous,
Your upline, or any other Christian for that matter, SHOULD praise you more for furthering God's kingdom (bringing someone to the church service) than for earning more points. There isn't a price tag on someone's salvation. Why do you have a problem with that?
Also, tithing at least 10% is what I've always been taught...from the Bible.
However, I completely disagree with your upline making that their business. That's between the IBO & God. It's not the upline's business I don't care what they say! Any average IBO can have as close, or closer of a relationship with our Saviour as a high-level pin. And the Bible is available to anyone who wants to know the "rules to live by".
Viktor,
Not sure what you're driving at. I agree with you. Love of money = bad. Those who are out to "get rich" will "get what they deserve"...and that's for God to decide.
Most IBO's, believe it or not, are out to simply better their lifestyle by relieving financial stress, or by putting themselves in a better position for their future. Or perhaps they want to help an aging parent or a disabled relative. What is so wrong with that?
We are all God's children. God wants us to have comfort & security. Just like we want that for our own children. However, just as with our own children, he will chastise us & discipline us when we act spoiled, demanding & greedy.
Fastshutter,
Please refrain from putting all IBO's in the same category. What Bob Durling did was, flat out, wrong. I don't blame you for questioning the LOS you were in. But it certainly is not the fault of the business and shame on you for spreading the message that it is/was. You should have gone further upline with a complaint and if nothing was done...simply transfer to another LOS. I hope you're doing well now.
Anon
So Insider... when did you join Quixtar???? (or WWDB/InterBiz/BWW/etc)
Oh yes, you never have!
Sigh...
Could you make it a bit of a challenge to cherry pick your lies?
Thanks for shoving your atheist religion down our throats, too.
I had friends in N21 USA, and while religion wasn't promoted as blatantly as I've seen with some other systems, it certainly did and does exist within the N21 system. Every function had "optional" Sunday church services, and I saw my friends go from none church going people to quoting scripture in a matter of months. And it was all because of the business, because soon after they quit (in for about 2 1/2 years), they slowly stopped going to church and reverted back to their old ways.
And in my opinion, a business shouldn't be used to further God's kingdom. A business should be used to turn a profit; nothing more, nothing less. That's not saying it should be unethical, just religion and business shouldn't mix, unless religion is an integral part of your business (think Christian bookstore). Quixtar is supposedly secular, though the actions of many an IBO, big pin on down, seems to indicate otherwise.
Happy in my LOS,
Google Kenneth Copeland and you'll find several reputable sources outlining the heresy he preaches. Word Faith is a dangerous and slippery slope.
Anon,
I agree that witnessing is important and any fellow Christians should share the joy of another follower of Christ. My beef is that Quixtar/BWW was turned into a ministry instead of a business, yet each week at the open meeting, it was presented as a business opportunity. Which is it? If it's a ministry, label it as such! I know not every LOS has the same beliefs as BWW, but you couldn't escape the Word-Faith, Health and Wealth crap that was spouted at every function.
You couldn't properly build the business without 'attending all functions', yet the functions didn't teach you how to build the business! Just that you needed faith, and perhaps the reason you weren't successful is because you had a 'blessing blocker' in your life.
The only thing Quixtar/BWW and the Winters team did for me was leave me with a lot of debt, and a general distain for organized religion.
Christians beware of the heresy of the Word-Faith movement.
In response to BWW-Winters people.
My inlaw's are in this group--totally devoted. My mother-in-law was proud to tell us about the prayer that is offered at the beginning of the major functions, the prayer that icludes something about banishing the devil from their presence for the event.
I've read books that take Scripture and totally twist passages to fit the quixtar business mindset. My mother in law has been in tears and distraught because she fear that her faith isn't strong enough for her to achieve her dream- to own a small fishing boat. How sad.
Could it be possible that our own human dreams and aspirations might not be what God has planned for us?---and that's OK?
Sorry, but I don't think it's possible for anyone to convince me that religion isn't interwoven into the BWW LOS.
BUT..if anyone is willing to pay my way to one of BWW's major functions, I'd go check it out and get back to you! I'm totally serious about this! :-)
dmm, if you're somewhere where there is a lot of people that would be attending church on a sunday morning and it's difficult because of the seminar, I don't think it's that out of place to organise something. I would however say (and I have said before!) that I object to my ticket fee going to pay for it! Such "optional worship sessions" existed in Australia when I left. And while waiting outside for the actual seminar to start I saw Diamonds and Double Diamonds waiting outside as well. Here in more secular Europe they are done away with altogether (yeehah!). As for your "friends", I promise I'll deconvert some christians in my group just to balance things out ;-)
I agree with you re religion and business mixing, particularly in this type of environment, though I'm a bit more progressive than to say they should just exist to profit :-)
ps gotta love the way Google is now splattering the sites with religious ads :)
I want everyone to just stop...
Stop being so darn cute that is!
Everyone is whooping and hollering about their newfangled bandwagon religions. Then there is you other folks with adorable balled fist on hips in defiance of gods and devils.
Seriously your going to make me diabetic with the sweetness level in this talkback.
It takes me back to my Wizardry fraternity days when me and the other wet behind the ears casting brothers would joke about mortals and the delightfully wistful beliefs they held.
I have to step in and point out something. All of your beliefs are incorrect folks. I know, I know, you don't want to hear it but its time to level with reality people.
There are actually 3 million and 43 Deities, every one of them is named "Bob" or "Karghesafragle" and they don't even know you exist...
Thats right, they don't believe in you.
So no allegiance is necessary and they wouldn't believe it if you pledged it anyway. So that should free up the rest of your lives to go about whatever business you see fit...preferably as an IBO!
Hope this clears everything up for you, no need for thanks, its what I do!
Poof! The Quix has left the building.
Wiz
Just to set you straight: There's only one true God, the Triune God, God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And He knows each and everyone of us exists.
Since you brought up your "facts," I thought I'd share an absolute with you.
Thank you for offering to buy me a drink dogmaticmind, but vodka gives me indigestion. I only consume the nectar of the gods and only the 1993 vintage (the other years taste slightly off.)
I appreciate your child like whimsy and assuredness of this Universe, it allows sleep to come rapidly at night, I hope.
Keep on trucking the imaginary highway of truth and may the Bob's smile absentmindedly in your direction!
Poof! The Quix has left the building.
Bah!
There is only one true Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!
I was in the Larry Winters / Joe M group. I vividly remember Larry talking from stage that God wants us to have beautful things, and beautiful homes. He said that when he goes to heaven, God will make sure that he has a mansion waiting for him, and Joe will have one, as will Doug and Amy, and Alan and Michele.
Pay attention
This whole thing is not about christianity or any other religion(including the spagetti monster). Its about playing a cruel psychological game to get a person to stay in a business that will eventually bankrupt them.
It would be the same as if they were cocaine at every meeting.
The atheist may be more enticed by the great wealth to be had so that he can enjoy himself in this short time on earth.
They do whatever it takes and say whatever needs to be said.
If the dream is big enough the facts do not matter.
Well once there are more Canadians in this business most of these religious things will fade away!!! :) lol
I am in the business and NOT a Christian. However I have studied various religions and their histories. I have read parts of (if not all) Holy Scriptures, I have studied History of Islam as well as most of Quran, and I have looked into Buddhism, and few other religions. Simply put all these religions say the same thing in different ways. I have yet to hear of any religions that say lie, steal, rape, and be bad!!!
ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN BECAUSE YOUR PARENTS AND NEIGHBOURS ARE CHRISTIAN? Or is it because you researched and decided it for yourself? I could see the lack of knowledge about religion from my executive diamond upline on the Sunday morning preaching in the FED function last week. May be I have studied a lot and know a little more than the average person. I know one thing for fact: whenever religion was used to obtain political power things go wrong real quick. It is not because the religion is bad, but it’s because if you talk about such politics, you are talking about the religion, and you are talking against god, and you must die!!! That is exactly the problem in a government system such as Iran. If you talk against the government, you are talking against god.
I would personally suggest the upline to go and study a little more. They are holding ceremonies for Hindus and Muslims in a different rooms where some other IBOs are participating there, and he was simply slapping around other religions, without knowing anything about them at all. I was not pleased with that.
Here is what we will do about it: We will build this business big enough so we can hold the function in Canada, and we will show them how it is done. We will show them how powerful diversity, friendship is, and how people respect one another for who they are. More Americans are Christian, so it is ok to hold a Christian service on Sunday. However Canada is very different, when discrimination is eliminated and you are free to practice any religion you want and believe in any kind of god you want, as long as you are good!!!
And they talked about voting and politics that as a Canadian I couldn’t care less for. You can choose to go to war or not, depending on your best interest. It was in Canada’s and Canadian’s best interest not to go to war in Iraq and keep doing what they were doing in Afghanistan. Canadians thought it was better to have a job well done rather leaving it unfinished and start another one, and then get stuck on both!!! Majority of Canadians (including myself) believed military action and violence has never resolved any conflicts, but only created more conflicts. People stood up and said that and Canadian government listened. Why some Americans look down on the fact that people have a say in Canada is a mystery for me. That function is good for some Americans. I couldn't really relate to some things. Again that's just me.
All and all said, aside from the congressmen talking and Sunday preaching I still learnt things and overall my experience was very positive. I will go to next functions for sure, and I don't have to listen or get upset about things taht I don't believe in. someday we will have our own group and our own functions where we improve things.
Cheers
Charle said -
The atheist may be more enticed by the great wealth to be had so that he can enjoy himself in this short time on earth.
Don't know much about atheists do you? Since we have no excuses, no afterlife, not second chance, any difference we can make here is all we have. Perhaps that's why the greatest philanthropists in the world, folk like Bill Gates, Warren Buffet are literally saving tens of thousands of lives a day by using their wealth in good ways. Famous "christians" like the soon to be Saint Mother Theresa received millions in donations but never bothered much improving the facilities of the hospice she ran - no, instead she opened over 500 convents around the world.
Preston,
Here's an "absolute" for you-
If you study religion religiously, then you'll become religious!
insider,
Do you know about all the good that Christians who may not have as much money as Buffet and Gates are also doing around the world? And whatever you say, Mother Teresa helped countless people who were downtrodden and rejected by society. When was the last time Buffet and Gates lived among the poorest of the poor? I'm not saying they have to and I'm not minimizing their generosity, but don't minimize what Mother Teresa did.
What are you getting at Michael?
Compared to what the Gates Foundation is doing what Mother Theresa did is minimal. Here's one take on her "legacy"
Mevi,
All I am getting at is that often times, expecially dealing with religion, you often become what it is your studying. At least most of the time. Actually with that quote, I wasn't getting at anything, just having a fun play on words.
My church had many people get involved in Quixtar, and they had an initial excitement about God... but then the "Name it and Claim it" teaching started going around the church. People were using the terms "Speaking things into existence", and the book "Hung by the Tongue" was passed around. I grew concerned, as one of the leaders, about this teaching, and tried to tell them that this teaching was not scriptural. The problem for me is that all of my best friends had become involved in the business. They were taught... I know this as a fact... not to associate with people who discouraged them in any way. When I started to speak up against the Word of Faith (speaking things into existence) teaching, I quickly became the enemy, and everyone involved in that business wound up leaving our church. I just want to encourage people in Quixtar not to turn on family and friends over disagreements. Quixtar is a business, but your friends and family really are more important than that - and so don't cut them off because you think they will stop you from reaching your dreams. Sometimes people that love you will disagree with you and care enough to be honest. I lost many close friends, and it shouldn't have to be that way.
God bless.
Amen, Jeff. I agree wholeheartedly.
However, it's really too bad when the very same family we continue to love, associate with, support....will not even give you a chance when it comes to the business/product part. It amazes me. I once had a strong "discussion" with my mom about the fact that I have supported my brothers business (he's only a salesperson not even an owner of the business) by purchasing through my brother. I have supported other family business & personal ventures. But when it came to our BUSINESS & switching the purchasing of basic commodoties, they don't have the time of day! Amazing....
I also have a big problem with family & friends ASSUMING they know what this business & the associated training organization (WWDB)is all about. They go by what their brother's friend experienced. Or, they'll read some of the comments on sites like this and take the information as biblical truth. Ridiculous!
But still....we smile, we're patient & loving. We don't "shove" it down their throats. Nor do we wait on them to understand. We just move on to other people who are looking for an opportunity to improve their life and/or financial situation. AND they're willing to do something about it! THAT'S the KEY DIFFERENCE between those who make money in this....and those who don't.
"... I have supported other family business & personal ventures. But when it came to our BUSINESS & switching the purchasing of basic commodoties, they don't have the time of day! Amazing...."
I have chosen to not buy my basic commodities from my inlaw's "business" primarily because I choose to not spend more money for products, plain and simple.
Not everyones' business ventures are equal. If a friend or relative of mine has some sort of business, I would be a patron if they offer a good product or service for the money, but asking me to consistently pay more for my basic commodities, that's asking a bit too much, don't you think?
IM -> "Not everyones' business ventures are equal. If a friend or relative of mine has some sort of business, I would be a patron if they offer a good product or service for the money, but asking me to consistently pay more for my basic commodities, that's asking a bit too much, don't you think?"
B> No.
Anyway, about this speaking thing... once again I fear there are two camps: those who think that the tongue is the new savior for human kind (Word Faith, or whatever), and then those who believe speaking can't do anything for you.
I would just like to provide a balance: Speaking to yourself is very powerful, as is visualization. This is done in sports, in achievement, in studies, to prepare for challenges, and even to recover from various life events or traumas. While some might not believe that God is granting everything that comes off the tip of your tongue, one must still recognize that speaking positively, rather than negatively, as well as preparing yourself through visualization and words can greatly help whatever it is you pursue.
Well put, Brad.
IM,
You're incorrect on the blanket assumption that the products they're asked to purchase are pricier than what they already purchase (and time spent to purchase them). Hence, my point about ignorant people assuming things.
I would not ask my family to spend more than they spend today, on basic commodoties such as laundry products, cleaning products, toiletries, etc. On products however, that directly affect their health & well-being....yes. I would ask them to pay more but I would certainly cost justify. As any good business person would. And there is more than sufficient proof for justification.
Have you bothered to give your 'relatives' the time of day so they can prove the numbers? And the quality? And the convenience? Did you realize shipping is now free to clients for these basic commodoties??? Get an update!
And one more thing...I think the time & the pain-in-the-ass hassles of having to go to a mega-discount store several times a week is underrated. I find it hard to believe that most of the "purchasers" of the home don't want to save their precious time by getting their products delivered! Most people complain and bi-ch & moan about how they're so unbelievably busy & can't afford anything. But they don't DO anything about it!!!
I HATE going to the store & shopping. ALWAYS HAVE. With or without kids. No clerks to be found. When you finally do find one....just TRY to get a smile out of them. AAGH!!! They obviously HATE working for the cheap, mega-discount store. Then, when you do get their attention...80% of them don't know what's what or what's where. Again...AAGH!!!!! Soooo frustrating! I have so many other things I'd rather do....including sitting on my a-s and watching tv. than go to Walmart or Target or Sam's or Costco or the dollar store or whatever.
Save that for the average, middle class American...just trying to get by, week to week on their measley paycheck.
When you factor time in.....the value of what we have to offer is that much sweeter. ;-)
I regularly source and read books leadership and personal development books from outside the system I am a part of. Funnily enough, amongst a group of books I bought not long ago was that one "hung by the tongue". It's not part of our system. Well ... books are "sacred" to me. One of the hardest things I've found to do is take out a highlighter and mark a book. But that "hung by the tongue" book? I threw it in the bin. I don't think I've ever done that with a book before in my life. Rubbish.
True, some things from quixtar may be cheaper than what I pay. Here are some of the basic commodities that I find at a better price, and the quality is more than adequate for my family's needs.
name brand breakfast cereal (I only buy on sale at less than $2 per box;then I stock up) I get these at my local grocery store.
My monthly discount store list:
toilet paper
kleenex
dog and cat food
cat litter
shampoo and conditioner
toothpaste
laundry detergent and softener
body lotion
trash bags
occasional cleaning products
health bars (I know that Q's protein bars have more protein and less calories, but the ones I purchase have an adequate supply of protein, taste better to me and are half the price.)
Other than that, there may be things that are more cost effective to purchase through Q*. If I find something like that, I'd consider purchasing it through my in-laws.
Yes, I have given my inlaws the chance to justify the costs. The arguement just hasn't won me over--I have too many questions I'd like to or have tried to ask, but questioning the system is considered a negative.
I'll admit that I have been rude, accusative, and overly aggressive at time to my family when it comes to Q*. I am not proud of how I've handled myself. It was hard at first being considered a "loser with no dream," one who just doesn't "get it." Things were tense for a while. Consequently, I have hurt some feelings. Even though we've worked things out, there are things we just don't ask about, because the answers aren't clear or understandable. Because of past arguements, my asking for clarification is considered a negative or not showing support.
So...my husband and I try as best as we can, ignoring things that seem different or don't make sense.
On another note. If my friend's dream is to be a hairstylist, goes into business, and is not good at cutting hair, even if she is my friend, I would choose not to go to her.
Everynow and then, I will pay more for something than what it's worth such as a fundraiser for church, school, boy scouts, etc. (Or to give a starting business a try. I did that with Q* stuff and my family.)
anon
I re-read your last entry, and Quixtar definitely has a niche when it comes to those who hate shopping, so for you, Q* makes sense. I'm a pretty conscientious shopper, I like the variety that brick and mortar stores offer, and don't usually fall for impulse buying. Sometimes I use the self-checkout lane and don't even talk with a sales clerk. Most of the time I use the regular check out line. If the clerk is friendly and happy, great. If not, well, their job is to check out my purchases, not edify me or make my day. They are helping with a business tranaction. (Even so, if I am friendly to them, they usually reciprocate.)
Speaking of friendly and helpful service, I've been amazed by how our local businesses have handled the challenge that two new super Walmarts in our community have placed before them. I was concerned about how our groceries stores would fare. To my surprise the grocery stores have become cleaner, friendlier, and even more helpful than ever before. Our 3 local grocery store chains now offer dot.com shopping and will deliver groceries to customers. There is a fee involved. Dothe things I listed in my previous post qualify for free shipping?I didn't know about the free shipping thing. MAybe I'll look over the catalog once more.
Anyway,
So... I do have that choice if I get too busy to shop. I can even stock up on great specials (like cereal)and perishables and the stores' lost leaders. They schedule their deliveries for when the customer is home.
So, as you can see, this is why Q* ins't something that for which I'd be a great advocate.
The primary consumer attraction for Quixtar is either (a) the exclusives and/or (b) the convenience. If neither of these are of interest to you, then you are most definitely not a member of the target market! Me, I absolutely loathe supermarkets and love many of the exclusives (in some cases have since I was a kid!) So I'm definitely a candidate :-)
Anon, you said: "Did you realize shipping is now free to clients for these basic commodoties??? Get an update!"
Can you expand on this please? Thanks.
IM,
I realize that not everyone will be a great candidate for what we have to offer. I actually have friends who LOVE to go to Walmart. Go figure!?!?!? Anyway, they're still my friends and we still hang out. :-)
IM & Brad,
I'm part of WWDB. Because of their success & their level of integrity (yes, you read correctly), they have been a part of several "beta tests", if you will, with Quixtar.
One of these is the webtour which was found to be extremely successful and has saved IBO's unecessary nights out away from home as well as saved them money (on gas, etc.).
Another recent happening is this: Free shipping on 1)Retail client orders of $75.00 or more (which we all know is not much) and 2)new IBO's for the first 90 days.
The eligible products are from the Choices catalog so IM, I believe all of the products you listed would be shipped for free.
Guys, because of the increase in shopping on-line, I personally believe that shipping prices will decrease dramatically and will essentially, become a non-issue. Prices may even decrease. I would always like to see that! Not only for myself but it would help with the retail part of my business as well! :-)
As far as variety of products on the shelves at the mega-discount stores.....well, unfortunately, I don't find that to be the case where I live. I don't live in the 'middle of nowhere' either. I went to a Target with a 5 item list one day. Nothing too crazy! they had only 2 out of the 5 items!!!
When I go online, I usually have many sources to choose the same product from. Plus, as I stated earlier, I just LOVE the convenience & time savings!
Hope that helps.
Anon,
I am in WWDB myself...SHHHH!!! That information is only supposed to be for WWDB IBO's.It helps keep an edge on the competition.It's only being tested through WWDB right now, not rest of Quixtar.
In reference to the power of positive words... I do agree that it is much better to focus on positives... and there is no doubt that what you say to yourself influences what you believe and your attitude.
The problem is that the teaching coming out of some motivational books actually teaches that there is a power, when the words are said out loud, that is released in the spiritual realm. There is a belief that our words actually determine what happens to us and that we have the power to create our futures by the power of the spoken word... for better or worse. I had a close friend who became immersed in this teaching through his Quixtar business (the motivational books) and he actually told his wife she wasn't saved because she hadn't said the words out loud when she prayed to accept Christ as her savior 3 years earlier. This belief is really dangerous, because all of a sudden we start speaking and commanding things to be the way we might want, and God's role (as God) is reduced. As the books teach, it's our words which create our futures. We stop asking God and start "speaking" the things we desire into being. If this sounds more like magic than Christianity to you, you are right. People in my church actually began saying that we shouldn't say how we really feel when we talk to others, but always say we are doing well... no matter if we feel this way or not. There is the belief that if bad things happen to people, it's because they are speaking negative things into their lives. It's a dangerous teaching. I don't personally think I have a problem with Quixtar, persay, just that the some of the teaching that comes from the motivational books claims to be Christian, but is nothing more than pop psychology self improvement (again, not a terrible thing except when it pretends to be biblical). Just my thoughts. I wish the best for everyone, whether you''re in the business or not, and I realize there are a lot of very cool people involved in quixtar. I just hope they can see through some of the teaching, and not get too upset if a fellow believer points out the dangers of this teaching to them!
Take care and God bless. I hope this makes some sense to someone!
Very well put, Jeff. I agree with you totally. I've seen this thinking be quite destructive to a strong Christian faith.
BTW, thanks recent post-ers for the great dialogue and for not criticizing me for liking Walmart! :-)
Here's another secret. Before the computer, people could still sit at home, order products in their underwear, and have them delivered to their door. It was called catalog shopping.
And you know who won the battle between catalogs and big boxes? Here's a hint. Think Sears and Roebuck.
The reality is, online shopping isn't any sort of revolution, just the evolution of catalog shopping. Right now, online shopping, if you take travel and entertainment out of the equation, accounts for 1.2% of all retail purchases. Traditionally, catalogs represent 3% of all retail. The question then becomes, can online shopping capture significantly more than the 3%?
Maybe, because online shopping does allow for more freedom and no paper/books delivered. However, even at 5%, it is still a niche market. That's not saying Quixtar can't capture a nice slice of the niche, and IBO's can't be profitable, just one should seriously consider the future of online shopping, and where Quixtar fits.
Do you have HOPE? Do you have purpose in your life? A reason to succeed and become a better person for yourself and your family? Do you know how to overcome fears? Do have the people skills it takes to start a friendly conversation or just look people in the eye. Do you know how to move beyond past hurts so they don't limit your ability to become successful. Are you around positive people with the willingness to help YOU succeed? Do you have a plan? Do you have a way to make the amount of money you want and desire? WELL FOR ALOT OF THE PEOPLE IN QUIXTAR'S "TEAM INA" THEY HAVE ALL BEEN GIVEN A CHANCE NO MATTER WHAT RELIGION, NATIONALITY OR SOCIAL STATUS. THIS NEW TEAM APPROACH GIVES MANY PEOPLE THEIR LIFE BACK OR A WAY TO CREATE THE LIFE THEY HAVE ALWAYS WANTED & DREAMED OF. IF YOU HAVE THE COMMITMENT AND DEDICATION YOUR DREAMS AND GOALS WILL COME TRUE in any area of life. In my opinion if something such as "the business" enriches your life, makes you a better person and gives you a willingness to succeed then by all means GO FOR IT! As an IBO I am seeing many great things happening in myself my family and my team members. This is by far the GREATEST BUSINESS ON EARTH!!!
After all that incoherent babbling by Jamie I picked one line out of all those questions that intrigued me the most and that was this:
"Are you around positive people with the willingness to help YOU succeed?"
My question to Jamie is this, are you?
The people in Qcult don't care about YOU, they only care about how much money YOU can make THEM! Once you see the light and free your mind of tapespeak and half truths you'll realize that's all they wanted.
There's much more to life than just money, believe it or not.
As for all your other questions, I could answer YES to all of them and I don't need Q* to obtain it.
How much money do you NET Jamie? I'll bet I make more than you every month at my "J.O.B" I also know my friends aren't after me for money.
I'm not told what to do, what to read, who to hang out with or how to think and no amount of money would make me change that.
From what I've learned of the system is that most in most of the LOSes, it really doesn't matter if you reach your goal via the sales of Quixtar products because you will continue to pay for the inspiration and hearing that if you just keep attending, reading and staying fired up, you will eventually succeed
If you make it selling the product, then those higher up in the LOS doubly win. If you just continue to stay plugged in, regardless of how you do as a salesperson, well, they still make a profit telling you to never give up and don't be a quitter. I guess you can look at it as just paying for motivation and hope in your life.
There are agencies that help motivate people, help them set goals and keep them accountable in reaching those goals. (my husband has attended a Christian based agency and it has been life-changeing, not only for him, but also for how he has affected other peoples' lives-- all free of charge for them!) Yes, you do have to pay for their service, but at least you know what you are getting, and they help you actually see if you are getting any closer to your goal.
I have yet to see this with Quixtar. You can tell yourself that you are getting closer to your dream, but what good is that if your really are getting farther away?
I understand that some people including yourself BIGDOG may not need Quixtar to answer YES to my questions & I am happy for you that you have other ways of enriching your life. Not everyone has that privledge. Not everyone knows how. But what kind of a statement is that BIGDOG "I BET I MAKE MORE MONEY AT MY J.O.B THAN YOU DO..... NAH NAH NAH...." Now to me thats doesn't sound very nice, positive or uplifting does it? And you think my friends are after me for my money? How's that? From YOUR past experiences with friends? Well I do know that nobody is "TOLD" what to read or with whom to hang out with but merely given suggestions on how to improve their current situations. Give people a little more credit for being just that "PEOPLE" with thoughts, feelings and emotions...not robots. Noone is forced to be in QUIXTAR it is merely a CHOICE. It's great to know you live such a wonderful fulfilled life with great friends. Maybe you should become a motivational speaker or maybe write a book for those of us in INA to read & follow. I DO know that after every meeting in "the business" I have a great sense of joy and happiness unlike my encounter with you. Let me ask you this...Are you willing to show me a way to create a wonderful income for me and my family such as you have created for you and your family regardless of my background. Are you willing to teach me positive habits and uplifing actions? Are you willing to meet with me each week and go over my plans & goals and figure out how I am going to reach them? Oh and can I call you anytime if I should have a problem or question? Do you have great advice to share with me? Are you the most positive uplifting person you know? I hope so because that is the type of people I am around in INA and it's a great feeling to know I am helping lots of others too. You are right BIGDOG there is MUCH MORE to life than just MONEY we do agree on that.
BigDog, funny thing you mention money in Quixtar when referencing Jamie's first post: he didnt mention money, he mentioned the intangibles... You mentioned money.
Re DMM's claim that the internet shopping is just a progression of catalog shopping: I completely disagree, here's why:
Did 10-18 year old people communicate daily via catalogues as they do IM, E-mail and blogs/forums such as this?
Do catalogues have a search capability and split second refresh and coupon redeption program?
Did catalogues allow personal customization or repeat purchases while still in your underwear and never having to talk to someone over the phone?
Did businessmen search catalogues while board at their desks, or via their phones while taking a break in the park?
What I'm saying DMM is the internet has become so intertwined in our lives that it isnt a catalogue, it is a way of life for most people (or will be eventually like the telephone and automobile became). Catalogues luckily came first and introduced non-store purchasing and the intrusting of credit information to a third party for purchase. This precursor allows the transition to be easier, but in no way a mere extension of catalogues, it is much much more. It is fine if you disagree with me, I'll stick with forrester research out of Cabmridge and Chamber of Commerce for predictions of online purchases thanks.
Hey again,
I just wanted to say that Bigdog never said ...."nah nah nah nah nah" :). Many of my best friends got involved with quixtar, and many were just as excited as Jamie about it. And believe me, these are some really good people I'm talking about. The main thing that I want to caution people getting involved with Quixtar about is the teaching they receive, not on whether it's a good business decision. There are many positive people in the business... but I would again caution those getting started not to buy into the idea that you should "fake it until you make it" (a common quixtar saying) or turn your back on friends who don't understand or are not as excited about the business as they are. I asked a friend to have a talk about some books he asked me to read that he got from Quixtar (or BWW, more specifically). He knew I had started to disagree with the "name it claim it or word of faith" teaching, and so he asked his upline if it was even worth it to talk to me. That hurt a little... he had gone so far down this path that he didn't trust someone he had known for years, even to just talk. The bottom line for me is this.... I can love and support people in Quixtar and still have my own opinions and beliefs about the motivational teaching books (Hung by the Tongue specifically). The problem is that when I voiced my disagreement, my friends stopped talking to me, ten different people just stopped talking to me. It still hurts because I still love and care about these people, and I never wanted them to be upset with me. But, they were taught to move along from anyone who tried to take away their dream, and I guess they saw my disagreement as doing that. Don't let Quixtar become more important than your friends... the friends that left me were, and I'm sure still are, great people... they were not stupid or mean spirited --so just be careful not to go down that same road too far. You can be in Quixtar and love and interact with people who disagree with it. They can't really steal your dream... you can "succeed" and still talk to them. And for those who disagree with Quixtar, just express that in a loving way. Judging someone will not help the situation.
Take care and God Bless
Jeff, I am sorry you had such a bad experience with your friends and the people you know. I hope that it works out for you in time.
But just as an aside, I ask that you please be careful of the labeling used on the Blog. I am in BWW, yet I am not the friends who did this to you, nor am I one that promotes this behavior. (If you want to see what I promote, go to www.quixtaraccreditation.com). While I do not wish to diminish your experience, I just hope you respect mine and be careful with unsubstantiated claims such as something being a "common Quixtar saying". I personally don't know how "common" this is. It is common amongst critics' experiences, but that could mean it is a trait of groups that treat people badly (hence why they quit it) as opposed to an over-arching 'quxitar-wide' trait. Never the less, my upline diamond has never suggested this, and I respect that.
Brad,
I appreciate your sentiments... and I think I understand your concern with my use of the word common. Even so, my main point is just that there is a real bitterness that goes back and forth about Quixtar, and I think it's really unhealthy. And I have to say that in my experience, and I've read three or four books sold by BWW, people are encouraged to distance themselves from people who disagreed or discouraged them. I don't think all people in BWW or quixtar do this... and it could be that it was a teaching found only in the three or four books I read... but my story is not as uncommmon as it should be. And the people in my church really were good friends, not just acquaintances. So my main reason of sharing on here is not to blast anyone, I just want to warn other people not to give up on friends or family for the business. You may think to yourself, "I would never do that"... but I just saw so many close friends leave, and I would have told you that they would never be the types of people to do that. You sound like you have a level head about this stuff, and I hope that you are able to succeed... but in the small chance that a time may come where this teaching really is being pushed on you... remember that the people who care about you might disagree, and it's okay.
And I apologize if my generalization offended you in any way. It really wasn't my intent.
Take care.
How many 10 - 18 year olds have any purchasing power on their own? So what if they are cruising the internet talking to one another. And yes, catalogs don't have split second refresh or coupons, and I have mentioned that the internet is an evolution in catalog shopping. Those are definitely improvements, but how many people are going to change their buying habits from the big store to the net because of instant refreshing capabilities? I would put online renewal into this same catagory. Last, as for businessmen searching the net on breaks, how many are looking to purchase something and do it online?
The answer to the last question is not many. I do a lot of online research, especially when I'm going to buy a high ticket item, but I often find myself buying from a local store because it is cheaper and faster. Still, I'm not about to buy my toilet paper and kitty litter online, especially when I still need to go to to the store for milk, fresh meat, and veggies.
I've been online for nearly 15 years. I've heard all the predictions about how the internet is going to make Wal-Mart's into condos because everyone is going to be shopping online in the future. Hasn't happened yet, and won't in the near future. Again, look at the history of Sears, once the largest catalog business in the world. Once cars became more prevalent, what happened to their business? They became anchors at your local mall because it is still generally faster, and cheaper to have consumers come to places where products are kept in bulk, versus shipping products in mass to a large group of buyers.
Hey Jamie, me stating that I bet I make more money than you in a month is not meant to be mean spirited but it is most likely the truth. Something Q* doesn't like to talk about "REALITY".
I never stated it made me better than you, but those uplines in Q* will have you believe you're a loser if you work a "J.O.B"
So why is a college student or a hard working man or woman a "loser"? Obivously, because compared to these "diamonds" they don't make as much $$$$$$.
Jamie I know you feel uplifted after meetings, seminars, listening to tapes etc, because it's what they do. It's what you're PAYING for. Of course you can call your upline at anytime NOW.
Now, tell him you're quitting and see if he EVER speaks to you again. Don't you see, these people do NOT care about your well being, they only care about how much money you make THEM.
It's NOT about you Jamie. Same thing with your "friends" in the business. Jeff made a great point. I was also told to not speak to anyone who was a "negative influence" on me. In other words if someone didn't believe in Q* I should not associate with them. My fiance included. That was the last straw for me. I wasn't about to listen to some guy I just met 3 months prior who tells me "Maybe it's time to associate with other people. If they are giving off negative energy, then you need to distance yourself from them. Your fiance included" LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! YEAH OK!
When I stated "my friends are not after me for money" I was saying that I GUARANTEE your "friends" in Q* will have nothing to do with you if you quit.
Friends and family LOVE you unconditionally I have YET to meet anyone like that in Q*
I agree with BIGDOG about your "friends" in the biz not bothering with you after you quit, but I don't think it's always about the money. I think it's also the fact that you aren't to associate with negative folks.
My loving upline has never on their own contacted me since I left in March, despite the fact that my father was really sick then. I called my sponsor's sponsor once or twice after I quit and of course he said we would still be friends. (Yeah, right.)
I left a message on my platinum couple's phone thanking them for all their help. No call from them either since, not even to ask how my father was doing, and they knew it was such a serious situation that I myself had a brief health crisis probably because of all the stress.
My sponsor is my ex. (We were dating for most of the time in the biz and I actually joined to support him.) We spoke a couple of times after a quit, but it was about our breakup and when I tried to warn him about what was going on in the biz. He hasn't called me in several months. Yes, a guy that claimed he loved me and cared about my family can't even call to say, hey how's your dad doing. I emailed him a few times, but the only times he ever replied was when I brought up questions about the business. Then he emailed me almost immediately. He also emailed me promoting one of the new products. (No, I'm not kidding.) But no reply to "how are you doing?"
I think the problem is that for a lot of them, they are taught that they have to avoid you like the plague lest you infect them with your negativity and steal their dream. They have to be sold out 100% to the biz, that's their whole focus in life, and if you don't join them, you will fall by the wayside.
I really don't hold it against any of them because, at least for the ones I worked with, I believe it is less a question of money and more one of insidious indoctrination.
For the record, I was in BWW in the Gala organization. What LOS were you in, BIGDOG?
If you want to spend your money on Christian,uplifting support and help in reaching your life goals WITHOUT any ulterior motive, check out the following site:
http://www.tentmakerstraining.org/about/test.html
There is actually some accountability with this program. You can actually see if you are getting closer to your goals. People are positive, encouraging,and loving, not because you are part of their downline, but because it is what Christ calls us all to be.
Sorry, that happened to you rara. That's disgusting, and yet these Q* people pride themselves on being better "people".
I wasn't in all that long and I really don't know what my LOS was called. I know the upline diamond was Larry Winters. I think it's called LTD now but I'm not positive.
I remeber joining before I even went to an "open meeting" because a friend of mine was in it and it seemed pretty straight forward when he showed me "the plan". However, I remember my first "open meeting". Everyone wanted to be my best friend. "Best decision you've ever made" was told to me by about 12 different people. They all took interest in every aspect of my life. This just seemed weird to me, so I was immediately skeptical. It was if I'd been indoctrinated into some secret special club.
I quickly realized, these people were disingenuous and lacked candor and sincerity. Maybe its my "negative attitude" but I can't say I'd ever met a complete stranger who took a complete interest in my life nor cared about my well being.
As soon as I told my friend I was quitting (after my immediate upline told me (not in so many words) that since my fiance was negative I should leave her) he didn't speak to me for months. And whenever he does, stop by to see me, he usually wants to borrow money or use my credit card for something (since the same upline that told me to leave my fiance, told him not to pay his credit card bills if it meant missing a function. He has completely ruined his credit at the ripe old age of 22).
I'll say this. It was an experience and it certainly made me appreciate, the little things in life much, much more.
How many of us have had jobs were we had "work friends" who we talk to everyday and these people are our great friends then when one of us quits we don't see or talk to them much anymore? Same thing. Also how many people have read diet books or followed diet plans and were told "Don't associate with people including friends or family members who will sabotage your diet." Same thing. I think people need to be strong and stand up for what they believe in any area. As far as the fiance comment I think that was horrible and I would have laughed too. There is NO WAY any group would make me distance myself from my fiance. I am sorry that you had a bad experience with such a great business. Always stay true to your own morals & values regardless of what somebody may say. I wish happiness to all!!
"I DO know that after every meeting in 'the business' I have a great sense of joy and happiness unlike my encounter with you."
~Jamie, AmQuix apologist
Wow. Sounds more like psychotropic pharmaceuticals than a business meeting. Or even a tent-revival meeting. But it sure doesn't sound like business.
Since the AMO you're in isn't a cult, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what a 'business cult' is, and how your organization is different?
BIG DOG
Just curious, are you in the Twin City area? My relatives are in Winters's group in the cities area, and I was just wondering if that was the same as you.
Inquiringmind,
Are you in the Twin Cities area?
Nope. North Dakota
Inquiringmind, I'm in the upstate NY area.
Jamie said>> "Always stay true to your own morals & values regardless of what somebody may say."
That's what I did. When my better judgement was in conflict with my upline I ran into problems. I was always uncomfortable around him, actually was pretty pissed off at him for telling me such trash. I'll never forget when he told me to leave my fiance. I wanted to punch him right in the throat for making such a nonsensical, risible comment.
Granted, my experience was a bad one, perhaps, worse than anyone on this blog. Maybe, my experience was worse case senario, but I've heard a lot of testaments similar to mine.
And I certainly don't wanna see anyone go through what I did.
rara, BIGDOG
I was in for 4 1/2 years on the Markiewicz team. My sponsor actually showed the plan to my now wife. But she
had started her own business so she told her to talk to me. I got fired up
right away and was sucked in from the get go. After 4 1/2 long years and many functions and sunday morning services and my sponsor telling me that my wife is the most negative person that I should find someone else because there are many dreamers out there and she is stealing mine. I had enough and 60K later and only ever reaching the 1000PV once I QUIT. On December 23,2005. I still see the usual cars in hotel parking lot on Tuesday nights. But not one person upline, crossline, or downline have spoken to me since.
That sounds about right David. I think the Markiewicz team is aligned with the Winters team (again I'm not sure)
Hard to believe a bunch of people, whom you never met, have the intrepidity to say such things.
When you look back on it now I'm sure it's hard to phathom how you got sucked in. I know it is for me.
I'm sorry that garbage had to happen to you, but I'm happy that you finally saw the light and got out before you lost more money.
The problem with these "dreamers" is just that. They're "dreamers", they get sucked deeper, and deeper into the dream and lose all sense of reality.
The reality of paying your bills, the reality of eating right (not just living on vitamins, energy drinks and meal replacement bars), the reality that 99.9% of people in MLM schemes lose money, the reality of being able to think for yourself and so forth and so on.
Hope everything is going well for both you, and your wife.
99.9% people fail in MLM's huh? Where'd you get that statistic BIG DOG? What statistic of success would it take for you to join an MLM? 70%? 60%? 20%? I believe that as long as success is possible, then you should strive to achieve it no matter what the odds are.
Thanks BIG DOG
My wife and I are doing very well. Yes Markiewicz is on the Winters team. I was at that Spring Leadership in Greenville,SC that was on Dateline. I do have to admit I was always the first one to the function on my team and the last one too leave. You know cant miss any chance to get that NUGGET. Buying over to qualify for night owls,pre and post function get togethers, and of course to get your upline that recognition they let you know that they deserve. But once you QUIT. You are branded a LOSER and an outcast. They tell you while you are
in that we will be on the beaches of the world together. But no more contact with you since you lost you dream and became a Q* quitter.
Hello all: this is my first visit.
You could say I wear two hats. I have been a minister for 50 years and a whistleblower/consumer advocate for 30 yrs.
It is unforunate but true that "christianity" has been used to promote many mlm pyramid schemes. The health and wealth gospel has spread like wildfire among various denominations.
If you took the material assets of Jesus and his 12 apostles you would come up with nada. JOHN DIED IN EXILE AND THE REST WERE MARTYRS.How dare these health and wealth preachers try to use my Saviour as an example of MLM marketing.
Sheer blasphemy.
Elder Frank Thomas
"Ask the consumer advocate"
"I believe that as long as success is possible, then you should strive to achieve it no matter what the odds are."
Yeah... that's why I play lottery all the time.
rlaurens> "Yeah... that's why I play lottery all the time."
B> do you really?
Elder Frank,
What do YOU believe about money? Just curious....are you one of those that believe that each of us has to be at poverty level to be a true follower of Christ?
Don't you believe HE wants to bless us in financial ways? I can't begin to tell you what a BLESSING it has been to be able to pay the bills on time. What a stress-reliever. We're not "rich". Whatever that is. "rich" is subjective. Anyway, we're not. We work HARD and have SACRIFICED and DELAYED MOST GRATIFICATION, unlike the masses. Finally, we're paying off the bulk of our debt and can pay bills on time. Or even early! ;-) We've maintained our FAITH in our LORD and SAVIOUR and continued to tithe through all the adversity and I believe that's part of why we're being blessed today.
What about health? I can't imagine our Saviour (yours AND mine) would want us to be ill, depressed & down trodden. I believe HE wants to bless us in the area of health as well as many other areas.
Our CHOICES in life have a LOT to do with how we are blessed. That's why many of us are where we are at today.
What's YOUR take, Elder Frank?
I remember hearing Larry Winters say from stage at major functions. That he was told by GOD! too fill all the colluseums in the USA with his team.
Speaking in regards to anon's questions of Elder Frank's post, I believe that most Christians don't believe that being rich is evil, but rather making that the MAIN FOCUS of your life is when things are not in line with what the Bible says.
As for delayed gratification, that's a matter of perspective. Do I have every material possession that I want? Of course not, and I see that as a good thing! I don't expect to get every possession I want in life. Sure, I have some goals for things I'd like to have, but these things are not my reason for earning my income. Goals are important, but but I try to not loose sight of "present gratification" for the blessings I already have.
Also, when the Lord says He will bless us, this doesn't always mean via money, possessions, or even health. I believe His blessings go beyond what we are even aware of or can understand.
BTW, when it comes to titheing, every tithe is important, from the person who gives their %10 of $45,000 annual salary to the billionaire. Stewardship needs to be evident in all aspects of our life, not only giving $$$, but also our time, sharing of our gifts, and helping others, without any intentions of getting them in our downline.
Anthony you said "99.9% people fail in MLM's huh? Where'd you get that statistic BIG DOG?"
I got that statistic from Quixtar itself. .0076% of IBO's make diamond, that's about 1 in 14,000. Try reading the fine print in your "plan" booklet
BigDog> "Anthony you said "99.9% people fail in MLM's huh? Where'd you get that statistic BIG DOG?"
I got that statistic from Quixtar itself. .0076% of IBO's make diamond, that's about 1 in 14,000. Try reading the fine print in your "plan" booklet"
B> Thus BigDog makes the assumption that success is ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, cannot be anything but, "Diamond" or above...
Ok.
B> Thus BigDog makes the assumption that success is ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, cannot be anything but, "Diamond" or above...
Ok.
Well, there has to be some reason that the phrase "Go Diamond" was coined. Given that the statistics include each and every IBO, they may not clearly show a clear picture of success.
Can you provide any statistics that honestly show the success rate of IBO's? I'd be interested to see the break down of how many people make the varying amounts of profit and where the majority lies. Is there any way to show how proportional an IBO's tool expenses are to his or her profits? That would be a valuable statistic.
Good points inquiring mind. I would LOVE to see a statistical breakdown, as well.
Especially this one you stated- "Is there any way to show how proportional an IBO's tool expenses are to his or her profits?"
I would as well.
Because my upline always told me that the profit they make from tools goes towards covering there shipping costs.
Sorry I meant to say NEVER COVERED shipping costs.
So is there ANYBODY who could find the tools expenses to profits ratio?
Or since financial success is actually relative, just tell what percentage of current IBO's make, say, $1,000 profit (income minus expences, just so we are all clear)$2,000, $4,000 and so on profit per month. That way the whole "average IBO makes $115/month" argument is put to bed.
Anybody?
Anybody?...
IM,
Here's one example, ours:
We make approx. $800.00 per month. Subtract average monthly expenses of $115.00-150.00 and you get an AVERAGE of $650.00 to $685.00 in profit. It has kept me from having to work outside the home & put the kids in daycare. You can't put a price on that. :-)
My personal opinion is that you can't really get a good feel on the average tools expenses to profits ratio. The main reason is that tools are not mandatory. Plus, one IBO may purchase Kate & Premier but not attend functions or purchase any marketing materials. You may have others who ONLY purchase the cd's and nothing else. Some IBO's need to pay for sitters...some don't. Some need to travel farther than others, etc. I think you get the point. Some retail, some focus on finding business builders.
I think the best way to measure would be to compare the individual IBO's profit against the expenses of being CORE.
Here are the associated costs with being the minimal CORE IBO:
1. Show the Plan 1-2x per week - this is FREE. IBO's can now show the webtour (which you can get copies of off of the computer) online & over the phone. This can also be done in 10 minutes or less. I showed 3 webtours (in person) in one day and I never left my house.
2. Personal Use - Again, FREE. Simply change where you purchase. Not necessarily WHAT you purchase. Take what you purchase today, and simply start purchasing it from your own store. If you can't afford to purchase all the recommended products then, by all means, don't purchase them yet! Make some money first. Retail. Get some experience and training under your belt before re-investing & growing your business to the next level.
3. Retail products. Quixtar offers up to three different "personalized" websites per business for FREE. You can get business cards for FREE from Vistaprints.com. Just pay about $9.95 for shipping.
4. Attend the four major functions per year. Dream night is about $75 per person. Leadership is about $125 per person. Family Reunion is about $200 per person (includes hotel & two meals) and FED is about $125 per person. IBO's can carpool & can share rooms or road trip in an RV & sleep in that. Many ways to keep expenses very low. Plus, it can be a blast!
5. Books - these are about $10-12.00 per book. Recommended reading is about 1 book a month. We happen to have most of the books on the list (from our previous corporate jobs) so didn't need to spend much on that.
7. Premier Membership/SOT - $49.95 per month. CD's are $2.50 apiece with Premier Membership. $7.00 apiece w/o Premier. Plus, you get $500.00 worth of function tickets for prospects...FREE!
8. Be Accountable/Be Teachable - FREE.
9. Communikate - Either $21.95 or $31.95 per month. You receive voicemail, email & fax capabilities with this monthly cost.
Hope that helps IM. :-)
Anon,
Thanks for giving me what information you could. I guess I'm looking for maybe a more general ratio of tools to profit. What reminded me of this was when my husband and I first started looking to buy our first home. We weren't quite sure how much of our monthly income should go to our mortgage. Our realtor was helpful in giving us a general percentage guideline. With that in mind, we were able to find a place that fit our budget.
Now, our realtor could have made more money by not giving us that guideline and influencing us to buy more expensive homes than we could afford, but she didn't. She had our best interest in mind. I had an advisor in college, He helped my plan which classes to take when in order to graduate in a a timely manner. He didn't have me take extra classes that I didn't need, or take needed classes in an order that simply kept me in college longer. As a mentor and guide, he had my best interest in mind.
Also, I've tried to help my inlaws bring their expenses down a bit. (I'm trying to help them evaluate how close they are getting to their goals) Their 'losses' column seems to consistently be bigger than their 'income' colunm.
I've found some great used book websites that I've suggested. Ebay has great buys on used tapes.
I'm notsure why they all have two voicemail and email systems. Could you explain to me what faxes you might be getting as an IBO? I was under the impression that most of the paperwork and such was pretty minimal--promoting the simplicity and ease of running the business. Their original e-mail and voice mail systems (which they still have)work just fine.
My husband and I aren't business owners in the conventional sense, but he is on call 24/7 as a pastor and police chaplain and is very much in demand. He has a cell phone with voice mail, and a e-mail account. Both of these seem to work pretty well when it comes to keeping him in the loop of what's going on. I'm not sure why people need to spend another $22-$32 per month for something they probably already have.
Anon> Personal Use - Again, FREE. Simply change where you purchase. Not necessarily WHAT you purchase. Take what you purchase today, and simply start purchasing it from your own store
Well, not really free because they spend more on a lot of things (and I mean exactly the same things, same brand, size, everything) that I can get sometimes at half the price at my local grocery store.
Is there some way to guide new IBO's as to how much in tools/profit makes common logical, good business sense? They said they have a dream and would like to make the money to acquire that dream. I'm just trying to help them reach it, that's all, but they aren't getting any closer after about 5 years in the business.
Realistically, I do understand that a new IBO will have tools expenses that exceed their business income for probably the first year, but after that, I would expect to see income to exceed, to at least meet the cost of tools, especially in this business since there is little or no overhead.
I'm just trying to make some common sense of this all.
IM,
Not sure why you went into details about your real estate agent & prof not "overselling" you on stuff....were you trying to make a point on something???
Anyway, what daily products are that much more expensive than the competitors? Laundry detergent is same or better priced. Same with shampoo, toothpaste, toilet paper, (two ply, not three),skin care & nutritional supplements and many other basic products. I have done many many cost comparisons & product comparisons with many people over the past 3 years. Please care to explain.
Also, we have a "guideline" on how to work with new IBO's. Now, obviously, each new IBO is different. I will accommodate their needs. Otherwise it's not going to work.
There are two ways to start making money IMMEDIATELY:
1. Start showing this same opportunity to others & convert their household spending. Use the Ditto Delivery Program.
2. Retail. Retail. Retail. Plenty of opportunities to turn a quick buck right away. a)have Artistry clinics/parties b)have Sports & Nutrition seminars c)sell the Gift & Incentive Albums to businesses for employees for sales, service, contests, rewards & recognition d)sell the Gift & Incentive Albums to family & friends for weddings, babies, anniversaries, valentines day, birthdays, Christmas, etc. e)sell the eSpring systems to businesses f)bring the B2B catalog to local businesses & work your business that way. Use the Ditto Delivery Program.
TONS of ways to make money right away with VERY LITTLE MONEY spent up front.
Why don't most people do it????
Same reason most people don't stick to a diet.
They lack the willingness, desire, committment, etc. to do the job.
Hope that helps.
OK, I'll explain. The example of our realtor is to show how she could have tried to get us to buy a more expensive home than we could afford, thus making a bigger profit for herself. Instead, she gave us a guideline so that we didn't end up buying something we couldn't afford. (Like IBO's who have lost some common sense and end up buying over priced items and continue to purchase tools that have little is any value beyond the Q* world.)
Most LOSes don't seem to care if the IBOs spend more on tools than without seeing the results in more volume brought in via retail sales. But, then again, it doen't seem to matter if volume is brought in because there is a dependency created by the tools that brings in money via cd's books, functions, etc. PLUS, you get IBO's convinced that the extra money spent on Q* stuff is all worth it, so keep on buying Q* stuff as well. It's a total win-win for most LOSes.
Quite honestly, your lack of understanding the analogy tells me that you really don't see how unethical the LOSes are.
Anon> Anyway, what daily products are that much more expensive than the competitors? Laundry detergent is same or better priced. Same with shampoo, toothpaste, toilet paper, (two ply, not three),skin care & nutritional supplements and many other basic products. I have done many many cost comparisons & product comparisons with many people over the past 3 years. Please care to explain.
Things that cost more through Q*
(or the alleged increase in the quality is not worth the extra expense. These items are *ed)
cereal
band aids,
coffee
fruit drinks
pain relievers
protein shakes
protein powder
laundry detergent*
fabric softener
TP*(don't care what ply it is)
kleenexes
diapers
soups
chips
air fresheners
meal replacement bars
dog food
cat food
hot chocolate mix
popcorn
ketchup
mustard
paper plates
paper cups
kitty litter
I'm tired of typing. Just go to Walmart or other brick and mortar discount store
I enjoyed this read very much. I myself am not Chridtian at all and because of this I believe my unbias opinion may be worth reading.
All denominations of "The Christ Cult" have slightly different opinions on what the scriptures actually mean. Many accuse others of being cults because they believe differently.
It should be known that all of you have the same core beliefs and if you could accept each other you might actually win over the hearts of non-christians.
Posted by: Michael Pheonix | September 19, 2006 4:41 AM