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August 26, 2006
Nonrefundable
By Truth in A/QMOs
Would you ever buy a nonrefundable ticket if you were not 100% sure you were going to be able to either use the ticket, or attend the event? I wouldn't, but unfortunately this is the very thing I saw encouraged to downline IBOs by their uplines. Downline IBOs were encouraged to purchase expensive tickets "on faith" to the next Eagle Qualifier.
During my time in Quixtar I was a part of the Merris LOS in BWW. Twice a year John and Cathy Merris would hold a big event for those who qualified Eagle. One event was a cruise, and the other was a weekend at a resort down in Texas. My sponsor told me the ticket prices ranged anywhere from $500-$1000. I still have yet to figure out how exactly it is a reward for you to pay your own way at these events.
My entire time in Quixtar these two events were heavily promoted and the hype would slowly build as the events got closer. Upline IBOs would tell their downlines to just "make the decision" that you were going to be there and purchase your tickets on faith. They would tell their downline that by purchasing the tickets they would have that needed motivation to get Eagle done. Sounded great and all except for one tiny little problem.....the tickets were nonrefundable. If you purchased your tickets and failed to qualify, you might as well just literally flushed the money down the toilet.
I never participated in purchasing tickets before qualifying for such an event and I am forever thankful that I did not. During my time in Quixtar I would always wonder just how many people out there lost their money to this horrible idea that was being promoted. At my last function I would get my answer. John Merris stood on stage wrapping up a night owl and remarked that they were no longer going to be able to have unqualified downline purchase advance tickets to his Eagle qualifiers. The reason was what I suspected all along. Too many people were buying tickets and not qualifying for the events, which of course meant they lost a significant amount of money.
For me it was just another nail in the coffin as far as Quixtar was concerned. Here was these upline IBOs who would tell you not to question them. Who would tell you that they had only your best interests in mind when giving you advice. Yet, these same uplines who were looking after their downline's best interests advised them to spend a large amount of money on a ticket they would never get to use. If that is not sad enough the worst part is some IBOs will turn blame on the downline for not doing what it took to qualify, and absolve the upline, who gave the advice, of any responsibility.
That is just how it goes when you get involved in many of the motivational organizations of Quixtar. You will be praised, built up, made to feel good about making a decision on faith. You will be advised that you are doing what it takes to Go Diamond for making decisions that don't really make good sense. But, when the advice you were given doesn't work out. When you are broke, heavy in debt and there is no more money to take. Your upline and other IBOs will look at you and tell you it's all your fault, and while you will realize that yes you do bear responsibility for making the decisions. You won't be able to help but feel betrayed when your upline, who gave you that advice, walks away without taking any responsibility for the advice they gave you.
Comments
Not to mention, to my knowledge, not one of these functions ever sold out completely.
As I pointed out on the forums, this could be happenning to 50000 people a month in seminars around the US. That is by no means an "isolated" incident.
But it would *still* be a minority even of IBOs attending seminars.
You guys just don't have any comprehension of how big this business is.
As for the ticket buying thing - what has "faith" got to do with it? Faith doesn't get you qualified for any meetings. Damn hard work does.
How many of this 50,000 IBOs who had a bad experience told everyone they knew?
"The Dalai Lama of MLM, His Holiness, The Almighty Insider" has declared>> But it would *still* be a minority even of IBOs attending seminars.
Right. More 'parsing' of words.
It's not an "isolated" incident. BUT it's still a "minority" of IBOs attending seminars.
Personally witnessed BS and outright lies from the stage at meetings in three major US cities. Big-pins/leaders visiting from cities 1000s of miles away at these meetings. That's not an indication of "System-wide" Endorsement of these BS? That's not an indication of systematic corruption?
The answer is NO. WHY? Because, "The Almighty Insider" said so.
How many of this 50,000 IBOs who had a bad experience told everyone they knew?
--JoCool18
MLM Survivors has over 1500 registered users. Maybe 1/3 were "pro" lurkers over the years.
Quixtar Blog Forum has nearly that many members.
Obviously some overlap in there too.
When you look at the big picture on the Internet, the MLM community is relatively small. Both pro and con.
Offline, the number of those 50,000 who told everyone they knew, gets even smaller. They might tell everyone they encounter for a week or two, but after that, other life factors begin to distract.
This is why boycotts are so short-lived.
Dave
I don't see what the difference is if it happened to 50, 50,000 or 500,000 people. I wonder why the only factor any pro-Quixtar person wants to talk about when it comes to these types of abuses is what percentage it happened to.
Who cares? How about we talk about the fact that there were people screwed out of their money? Does the number of people make it any better or worse?
Not to mention, how about discussing the fact about how these uplines give this very, very poor advice and then turn their backs on their downline when it all goes sour?
Drew,
I'm not discounting the fact that these incidents happened.
Dave
Dave,
I know that, and am not saying anyone is claiming it didn't happen. But, if we all agree that this abusive behavior is happening does it really matter how many or what percentage?
I know you were simply replying to an earlier comment and quite frankly I believe you are right on the money.
I guess my comments are more directed at Insider then anyone else since he brought the whole numbers thing up. I just don't see what this has to do with whether it is happening to a minority or a majority.
Does that mean they are telling folks it is still worth the risk since you have a lower chance of ending up in an abusive group?
Drew,
I am also not denying that something like this could have happened in your LOS. I must make one comment, however:
"But, if we all agree that this abusive behavior is happening does it really matter how many or what percentage?"
I'd say yes it does matter WHAT percentage of groups are really doing this. It does make a difference knowing that it's a certain minority rather than the majority.
OK, why does that matter then? It certainly doesn't matter to someone who gets sponsored into one of those abusive LOSs does it?
If you want to point out that you think the majority of Quixtar groups are not like this that is fine. But why leave it at that? Ultimately this kind of behavior I have described affects you and other IBOs. For the IBO that was abused they certainly don't feel like they are in the minority.
What percentage of rape victims or even other crime victims report these crimes? Not that many. I think the fact that such practices are done by high pins speaks to the fact that the root of the LOS's is rotten with corruption. If we heard that just a few lowly and nutty IBOs were doing such things, then maybe one could argue that these are isolated incidents. But as a former member of the Gala team, I can say that the same things happened in my group.
And where do IBOs learn such things? It is one of the things that supposedly makes the system so great - duplication! And you have to have something or someone to duplicate, and that person is supposed to be the upline. Follow the chain up and you'll find out that these unethical practices are not confined to inexperienced IBOs but flow down from the higher pins, who of course make money off the tickets.
In fact, on one of (Double Diamond) Kumar's CDs, he talked about how he bought a ticket for Go Diamond before he qualified and he and his team ended up buying his way to silver. Of course, he dropped back down the next month.
Any IBO that wants to believe that these and other abuses are not common in the biz just has his/her head in the sand and doesn't want to come to grips with reality, probably because it would hurt too much.
We were in the Yager/Florence LOS for 3 years and this was common practice. Other similar instances that come to mind: we were encouraged to buy extra function tickets to have available for people we might sponser (just in case they sold out!); events were promoted that you would have to qualify to attend (by showing a certain number of pans, etc.), usually w/ our Emerald--didn't find out until AFTER you qualified that you had to pay to attend.
We were located in metro Atlanta area.
Drew,
I hear what you are saying, I can respect that. But, this is why the Quixtar accrediation is so important.
"OK, why does that matter then? It certainly doesn't matter to someone who gets sponsored into one of those abusive LOSs does it?"
It should. Knowing which organisations that are abusive is important isn't it? Many IBO's don't want to know who is abusive and who isn't, hence why many IBO's dislike this blog and others. But if we knew which specific LOS were abusive and we could possibly correct them and eliminate them, that makes this business better as a whole.
Ever hear the quote, "one bad apple spoiles the bunch?" Why not elimitate the bad apple?
Drew, You've said on your blog several times that you don't care if people join the business after studying the business from someone who has been in it. But isn't it better knowing that they are armed with the correct information, versus if they joined one of these abusive LOS's without knowing this information?
Michael,
I don't know if you are catching what I am saying here. I agree that one bad apple spoils a bunch and that people should be armed with all the information they can get. I started my blog with the intent purpose to tell others what was never told to me.
Now, I have no problem discussing numbers. But I feel when you focus on the percentages too much you lose sight of the fact of the abuse that hurts so many.
Basically in some cases IBOs try to water down what happened to certain IBOs by pointing out that they are most likely in the minority. Well it's a minority of kids who are molested and a minority of women who are raped but the number does not change the impact that it takes on them. I know that is a harsh example and I am not trying to compare the two on same levels of life impact, but just to try and convey the direction.
So I agree that we can shout from the mountain tops who are the abusive groups, etc. I just don't want the fact that many people's lives have had a very bad financial impact due to many of these abuses being watered down because we are reducing it to a simple math problem.
I like the new Quixtar Accrediation progam and I hope it works out as well as advertised. I give Quixtar big kudos for taking these steps, but I give even more credit to blogs like this and sites like this that gave voices to those who were abused and taken for a ride. I believe if it was not for those sites Quixtar would not be taking the steps that they are now taking.
Want to know how often it happens? Go to a major function and watch all of the poor smucks trying to sell tickets at the door.
I remember being at a Rummel Function, where we were encouraged to put up $200 toward a trip to Cancun. We (Directs "helping: at the function) collected over $10K, and there were four other diamonds doing the same thingm on the same day. If I remember correctly, two couples qualified. All the directs and above were invited, but we paid full price (no credit for our $200)
Drew,
I must say I am a bit confused.
Who says IBO's are "watering down" the numbers? This is precisely WHY the numbers are so important to have so that people can't be accused of "watering down" anything.
It's not watered down if the actual figures are in the minority.
I agree with you on one point, we shouldn't water down the fact that your group was abusive and that those abuses shouldn't be ignored.
I like blogs like Qblog's for actually letting the reader decide for themselves if the business is for them or not. Not trying to force people or convince them to quit just because someone ate a bad apple.
I am not talking about the numbers being watered down and it was not my intention to convey that message.
I think we are pretty much on the same page here that while the numbers serve a purpose it is important not to water down the impact that this abuse has taken on people's lives.
I know this is a littel off the subject, but it ties into the most recent posting on this sight. How do you explain to a new person what Eagle is, and why you would want to go on a cruise or whatnot, when Eagle isn't an official Quixtar level? Can't wait to see how IBO's explain that to the MILLIONS of people that are going to sign up because of the new adds
Drew,
"I think we are pretty much on the same page here that while the numbers serve a purpose it is important not to water down the impact that this abuse has taken on people's lives."
FINALLY! yes we ARE on the same page.
Another IBO, I try and find out a prospect's wants and needs before I get into the various levels.
Lets put things in perspective here. I run a small studio out of my home, and I use word of mouth advertising to promote my business. The client that I was photographing was a friend of a friend of a friend that was a complete stranger to me. It just so happened that she was prospected by the very same group that abused my wife and I.
In the City of Omaha that has half a million people (Nearly 1 million in the Omaha, Lincoln, Coucil Bluffs area) what are the chances that a brand new IBO who joined the same group that I was apart of end up in my studio? Was it fate? Divine Destinay? Extreme Random Chance?
Or would the obvious answer be that this problem and this group is much larger and aggressive then Insider wants to admit?
Can any of you IBO's tell me why you don't do more to shut down these "rougue" teams? Why do you let them tarnish the name of the company that you are trying to work with? Lets pretend that Insider is right. This is a small group, and these are isolated incidents. Why not pressure Quixtar to kick them out? Wouldn't you and Quixtar have so much more to gain if this little group of trouble makers were gone?
Wake up! This is not a small problem, and this is not an isolated group.
Actually, you bring up a very good point fastshutter. In Omaha the group you were in is very big and contains the great majority of IBOs in this area. So in this city it is the majority that falls in the abusive category. While on the whole it may be a minority, city by city it could vary.
all i read is alot of B**chen but yet no one will do anything about it. if no one is going to do anything about it then shut up!!! face it...shit is going to happen to you anyway regardless of this business or not. you get the same BS no matter where or what you do...so either S**t or get off the pot!! and move on with your lives...
When this type of practice is TAUGHT from stage to thousands, then I feel its an abuse.
When a IBO earns the right to be on stage and speak, and comments that he purchased a ticket before qualifying for something and the personal story that goes along with, that's not an abuse.
People can make their own choices. The Diamonds and above are very influential, so if they're teaching this practice, people will follow.
I personally would have no problem purchasing a ticket before qualifying for something. I've never done it, but I understand the concept.
The accredidation program will help solve this issue.
Let's face it, people waste money on all types of stupid things everyday. If someone wants to throw their money out the window, that's they're deal.
If they were too weak kneed and spineless to stand up to an upline that may be out of control, I say "Grow a Backbone!"
When I have the opportunity to speak, I never apologize for the work or choices I've made to develop my business. However I do want to be responsible with how I teach.
Here's a solution. If you pay for a ticket to some sort of qualifier or function 'on faith' because you just know you'll be qualified by the time it comes around, there is a sure-fire way to not lose your money.... Qualify!
You know, there are people who actually do that. Most of the people on this board would say they were lucky or cheated somehow or got an unfair advantage. The truth is that they showed the plan more, listened more, and read more.
Nenetheless, if you're not going to qualify, don't waste your money...
I want all of you who are looking into this business to take a good look at Javert's comments. This is exactly the type of IBO to stay far away from.
He has complete disregard for the clear abuse that was happening in the situation described. His automatic assumption is that those who were screwed out of their money didn't work hard enough even though he has absolutely no evidence to back that claim up.
He completely disregards the fact that there is no good reason to purchase your ticket before you qualify. I have seen IBOs purchase tickets up to the last minute for these events so there is no rush to secure seating.
Also, Javert I guess doesn't see that those who really want to go will qualify anyway and no one needs to get screwed out their money in the process.
This type of IBO will blame you for everything and never take any responsibility for the advice they give you. Stay far away from them they are the reason abuse in the system exists.
CoolBreeze,
First of all does this mean then that a Platinum TEACHING this in a house meeting to a downline of say 15 IBOs is not considered an abuse by you? I really don't see what it matters if it is being taught to 1, 100, or 10,000 IBOs. Abuse is abuse, it's not a math problem.
I guess I must not be an everyday person cause I can't remember the last time I blew $500-$1000 on absolutely nothing. Matter of fact I don't know anyone who has ever done such a thing except for those IBOs that listened to their upline and lost their money.
On one hand you are telling the downline to grow a spine and then on the next hand you are saying you want to be responsible with how you teach. Wouldn't responsible teaching take care of any issues in the first place. I swear I don't know what this obsessive complex with some IBOs is. You want to lash out at the downline and leave the upline absolved.
While the downline can certainly take steps to help themselves the upline needs to be held to a higher accountability since they are the ones giving this advice within a system that teaches you to listen to your upline and not question them. But many IBOs want to take an opposite approach they want to hold the downline's feet to the fire instead.
I guess it's a matter of many IBOs don't want to point the finger in the mirror.
Drew,
I think that you're probably misinterpreting what I wrote. No problem. Might have something to do with communication through the written word.
My point was that in this example using the same context, teaching a group of people (almost ordering them) whether large or small is definitely an abuse. Especially when the person speaking knows that most people will not do what it takes to qualify.
What makes this situation even more rediculous is that we're talking about a nonrefundable ticket on a cruise that the upline probably wasn't going to make money off of anyway.
I don't think an IBO leader who gets on stage and talks about an anecdottal story that relates to his experience building the business is abusing his downline.
Like I said, no one should have to apologize for sacrifices they've made to accomplish goals in life.
It's great that you don't wast money Drew, but people do it all the time. $500-$1,000 bucks is pretty extreme, I know plenty of women who spend that type of money on shoes. Guys who waste that type of money on a golf club, or watch.
You're also trying to say that I'm defending the upline in this situation versus the downline. WRONG
I started my post by saying the this particular leader was probably teaching abusively.
My point was, that if you would have said "this is rediculous, screw you, I'm not giving you $500," then why can't another adult do the same thing.
Sometimes the critics try to make it seem like they're the only intelligent people on the planet, and that all IBOs are mindless zombies.
It reminds me of how many in academia view Christians.
So then address the point instead of playing the victim. No one here is trying to act more intelligent then anyone else. I am bringing up points that you can either respond to or move on.
We are talking about a system that teaches downline to listen to their upline without question. They are taught that their upline would not do anything to harm them and that if they listen to their upline they will be financially free. Hundreds if not thousands of testimonies proves this.
So in that enviornment there is no doubt that there are IBOs who will go against their better judgement and do things they would not normally do, all because they believe that by listening and doing what their upline is saying they are doing what it takes to build the business.
So if upline was to simply be ethical in their teachings in the first place wouldn't that take care of most of the problems we see today? Something tells me that if the teachings were already ethical Quixtar wouldn't have to set up an accreditation program.
Also considering the fact that upline teaches never to question them shouldn't they be held to a higher degree of accountability?
I addressed this before and you simply went back to your same comments added in with some pot shots. How about this time we do something revolutionary and actually address the points?
Drew,
I just have a problem with blanket statements.
I've seen my life change in a positive fashion with help from teachings learned through BWW.
I've seen people in my group make tremendous positive changes through association with me who is a part of BWW.
I'm not saying that Uplines can't screw their downlines, but you make it seem like the system is set up to do just that, that its set up specifically to screw their downline.
That's a misrepresentation.
When reading about negative aspects of the business I really can't relate. Everyone has to realize when you are dealing with over 1 million IBO's there are going to be some people who want to take advantage of others. I have been in the business for almost 2 years now and have been fortunate enough to work with an upline who is down to earth, willing to help me anyway I can and never tried to "push" anything on me. I guess I am one of the "lucky few". P.S. I made over $48,000 last year in the business, not bad, but not good enough yet to leave my full time job.
Hmmmm, drew claiming that someone who is IBO positive is playing victim. Seems that is reversed. Victims complain, that is what you're doing on this blog isn't it? The pro-IBO is simply defending, which here is practically impossible, since noone here is interested in changing minds only destroying creativity. Keep up the great work(very sarcastic). Simply amazing that a negative event or aspect can occupy so much space here, and yet not one positive story. There must not be any. A blog.......allowing a unbalanced minority a place to complain loud enough for everyone to hear. Why don't you register as an IBO, and build it without the tools you complain about, or the "expensive" trips you need to pay for after qualifying for them. My team teaches all the time, don't waste your money on tools or functions unless you're going to build the thing. How much more logical can it get. Anyone know a realtor or realtor's office doing a promotion? Like mine always did. We did promos and the achievers went on mini vacations, paid for by themselves to someplace fun. Some didn't qualify. Some did. Maybe with enough ranting and raving on your blog, someone will want to buy it from you, i'm sure you'll turn the $ down since your obvious motivation is caring about people and protecting them from scams like Quixtar and other successful pyramid schemes. Everyone have a great life. It's up to you.
And, the evidence keeps mounting. Here we go again, we learn about yet ANOTHER abusive practice in the business.
[SARCASM ON] But you know what, Drew, I still think you are grossly 'misinformed'. Brad and Insider are right, this is just one of those 'isolated' incidents. See, even the incident that fastshutter talked about on the forum was an anomaly. As Insider pointed out, especially, considering the fact that at least three critics on that thread pointed out that they had the same upline!
See, all these incidents and abusive practices that the critics talk about - it's always referring to JUST one LOS/LOA in some obscure place in Alaska. Brad and Insider told me so.
So there. [/SARCASM OFF]
Posted by: perceptive - QUIXTAR-AMWAY INFILTRATOR | August 26, 2006 11:04 PM