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August 2, 2006
In Their Own Words - 13
By Xanadustc in Their Own Words
This week, John Crowe tells us about the truth that Bill will teach:
Bill Britt will teach you truth tonight. You may not agree with everything he says, just remember, don’t questions Bill Britt’s fruits; question the fruits of the people who taught you have you think. So that by the knowledge you bring to the function tonight, is to let you think a certain way, well your certain way of thinking has brought you this far…
Download Listen to Britt [MP3] BWW166 “Stay Young at Heart”.
So let us get this right: Everything I know is wrong, and I am to cast it off in favor of what Bill knows because he has money? Next, why does he assume that my thinking is so bad? Is he judging me by the external standard of money (That is the proper context of that verse you are all thinking of)? Not a good thing for a person on the board of directors for Gospel Communications to do from stage unrepentantly!
What is that teaching all about anyway? I wrote about it here.
Comments
Hey, Coolbreeze,
As a long time participant in the BWW system, indeed he was talking to me. Why do you want to create a massive straw man to avert attention away from what he is saying. He is unquestionably doubting my life as worth anything because Bill Britt has money. I am more concerned with what Bill Britt is teaching than anything.
You seem to be indirectly saying that I used that quote out of context. Please explain the context for me please. I am very careful to keep the context in all the quotes I pull out for this series.
Let me ask you a few questions:
1. How long have you been involved in BWW?
2. How much do you spend on BWW?
3. How much was your Quixtar check last month?
4. What is the amount of money your collective downline spent on tools last month?
5. What is the collective money your downline made from Quixtar last month?
Thanks,
X
"Its too bad that so often, these people fall prey to misrepresentations, exagerations, and outright lies..."
...of IBO's and leaders who promise success but rarely deliver real, tangible profits.
"Critics try to assert that Quixtar "kingpins" twist the truth to manipulate others."
Why then is there a need for the Quixtar Accreditation program if there aren't Quixtar Kingpins that twist the truth and manipulate others?
Well, not doing what is taught is "not being teachable". Not being teachable means you are not CORE. Not being CORE means you cannot succeed......
CoolBreeze,
Need to go back to "How to win friends..." The proper response is "I know how you feel, I felt the same way at first, but then someone expained to me that the tapes are like a buffet. I can't stand fried Won-Ton, but my wife loves it. We still go to the buffet; I just don't get fried Won-Ton, but who know's maybe someday I'll develope a taste for it."
Dam - I still remember what the Kool-Aid tasts like...
X and other Qblog zealots,
Did he specifically speak to YOU?
Also, why is that the "fruits" he speaks of have to be material. But you don't want to hear that.
If I talk about how much money I'm making in Quixtar, critics will say "that's all you care about, you're materialistic....", but if if talk about how beneficial the BWW system has been to my job, my family life, and my overall personal development, critics start screaming "I thought this was a business and not a social club."
Critics make blanket statements about IBOs insinuating that they're mindless cult followers "drinking the BWW Kool-aid", but is that really sensible.
Could it be that there are people who really aren't happy with their jobs, and who do want something more meaningful to do with their time. Could it be that there are people who are just hungry for acceptance, and who are starving for appreciation. If Bill Britt and others provide those things to these people, don't you think they gain a deeper satisfaction than just "The Money".
It's clear that there have been IBOs who have made some mistakes. Not being upfront about tool incomes from the very beginning of the PDPs was a big mistake. Allowing people who are Christians, but not necesarily ordained ministers to dabble heavily into religion and politics has created image problems.
However, every year, the business gets better. Every year the corporation, and the IBOA come closer to resolving some of these issues.
There are hundreds of thousands in the US alone who will tell you that BWW and other systems were a positive thing in their lives, even if they decided not to build the business.
That's all. I just want to make sure that someone checking out this site dosen't see a one sided view. I don't want them to blindly drink the "Qblog Kool Aid"
Way to dodge the questions! I have been in long enough to know that means you ain't making SQUAT and are ashamed to come to that truth!
You answer my questions from above and I will be glad to tell you about the CULT EXPERTS who agree that many PDPs utilize CULT PRACTICES! It is not a blanket statement, it is verified by expert research.
Again, regarding the religous end, I am not concerned if a non-minister is preaching on stage. The Bible does NOT teach that we need to have a degree to talk about these things. But I am concerned that the MESSAGE they are teaching as TRUTH is a bold-face LIE. I have detailed the evidence and research on my site.
I ALREADY addressed your "Is he speaking to you" question, why not read it and understand that I might have more knowledge about BWW than you do!
X,
So do you think its impossible for someone like me who has not accomplished much at all in this business to date (although I passed the average by at least 8 times) to one day have a large enough business where I could change some of these inconsistencies that you talk about.
As I've said, that's why I'm here. I just want to build a strong profitable business, but enjoy the idea that I can teach and train others using the personal development lessons I've learned from.
Tell me some of the cult practices. I'm not being smart. I genuinely want to know. I want solutions. I'm not asking for you to try and persuade me either way.
Telling someone everything they know is wrong and they need to listen to the Leader teach them the truth, and that if the Leader's truth doesn't make sense it's because of the lies they have been taught up until now by everyone they know in life, is a cult practice.
Adam W, nice response. Short and sweet.
CoolBreeze said:
So do you think its impossible for someone like me who has not accomplished much at all in this business to date (although I passed the average by at least 8 times) to one day have a large enough business where I could change some of these inconsistencies that you talk about.
That's what my sponsor/ex-bf said when I confronted him about the abuses of the system. I don't know why anyone would want to stay in a system that is pervaded by corruption when there are other things one can do, and after one has been losing money and at the same time lining the pockets of the emeralds and above, who are making money off you even though you yourself aren't making much or maybe any for that matter, contrary to their promise that "we don't make any money unless you do." Yeah, right. You may be in deeper than you think.
Anyway, good luck to both of you.
Rara,
In my experience the good outweighs the bad by a long shot.
I've seen some very nasty and underhanded things go on during my short time in corporate america. I've seen some horrifying things take place in the church. It just proves that people are not perfect.
I think that there are small changes in how we operate, and how we teach that will solve many problems.
I'm still not making the cult connection however. Or I guess I see similar practices in many other well respected organizations.
It just seems to easy to write people off as cult fanatics. After all, no one in BWW is talking about doing stuff that immorral, or hurtful to anyone inside or outside of the business.
Critics keep talking about how much money people are losing. I can only speak for myself, and people I know. I see all kinds of friends and family wasting money on activities and practices that will have no financial or social benefit to their respective families.
It just comes back to the individuals choice of what they want to invest in. If you think its a bad investment, then that's cool.
I think its stretching to label the various systems as cults, or that they're robbing people.
Ok, now we are getting somewhere.
First, I am not saying that you can never make it, I am saying that to make it, you will need to sell people into the tools system. There is simply not enough Quixtar money to live the lifestyle you think you are going to live, it will have to be supplimented with system money. Now, I am not going to go into vast detail on the 'is it ok to make moneyu selling tapes', and the related questions. I have been here long enough that if do some basic research, you will find my arguements well rounded. Have you seen my site? www.bwwsot.blogspot.com, I analyze tapes, teachings, notes, etc. You will find my positions there and scattered throughout the comments here. I perceive that you are new on this site?
Next, the cult material is extremely well documented by cult expert Hassen. I have read his works and believe that he has credibility. I have also studied Lifton, Singer, and some others. Commercial / motivation cults are very well documented in their writings.
As for specifics, you can see my personal analysis:
My BITE Model
or you can see Hassens Amway/Quixtar page on Freedom of Mind.
To understand, Hassen was very high level in the Moonies, was rescued from that and went on to receive professional degrees in counseling, psychology, and cult analysis. He is a leading expert in the field.
Mind you that this is only one resource of many out there.
FYI, you still have not answered by questions. Why are you avoiding it? I think that if you are honest, you will see that BWW involvement is certainly hurting either yourself or your downline financial position. There is simply no way to get ahead without having a large downline and there is no way for your downline to get ahead without a large downline ad infinitum, therefore, it is impossible for all system participants to succeed at once. That is the crutch of the problem, sir. That is what I have been trying to tell people for the last year. You see, I was CORE in BWW for a long time and all it got me was a lot of debt. What is to stop that from happening to you or your downline?
The answer: To be more careful before you buy every seminar ticket, tape, or book that is waived in front of you. Of course, if you do that, you are told both from stage (always, you can NEVER argue that) and sometimes in personal couseling, that you are not making it because you are not CORE. That, my friend, is one of the core cultic BWW practices.
X,
One of my donwline IBOs sent me this link. Im sure there is 100s of websited like this one out there. Wow. I ll comment quickly although I really don't need to prove nothing to you bloggers out there. You are in your own little secret world.
Bill Britt is absolutely right. 98% of people out there are in lala land. They are confused and in denial what it really takes to win in life. They put their families through hell because of that. They don't understand what being a 2 % is all about. You are one of them. Obviously you haven't done jack in your life. (Other wise, why would you spend countless hours thinking and typing up blogs)And of course, look at all the opinions that you have to bring to the table. How can you be such a looser. Go do something with your life. I don't care if its this biz. Quit waisting your life typing. Be a man. Don't put others down just because you didn't have the guts.
Guess what, people that seriously build this bisiness aren't worried about your opinion. We look to earn the respect of the 2 % (doesn't matter if they are in business with us). You are a 98% - I can care less about why you quit and all the reasons you've come up with to justify and run away from the truth.
You are asking people about their incomes. What about your self? I can guarantee you that anyone who had any success at all wouldn't be waisting their time with this.
I am 23 years old - debt free outside my home. Have 10s of thousands of dollars in the bank. All because of this business and the people I work with. I have personally met 100s and 100s of people like me. I have never met anyone in a job world that have done that at this age.
How about you big shot? That's what I thought. So shut your face and go back to your family and tell them again how you failed because of "the system being bad" and not because of you being lazy and wimpy. Maybe they buy into it. Maybe you don't have a family. Then go convince your immaginary girlfriend. She'll listen to you. Stay in denial - that is why you will die broke like the rest of the 98% and leave your kids with nothing. Congratulations! You have discovered " the truth! " Lets go pass it on to all your blog buddies that buy into your crap.
T
So T, quick question on the 98% figure. Since the average person in Quixtar makes $117/month, which is much less than people in the real world, would you be willing to say that 99.9% of the people you work with are losers?
Thanks for the laugh.
I always enjoy when X, the self-proclaimed theologian, shares his infinite wisdom on snippets of talks from those that did what he couldn't. This one in particular tickles me because John Crowe was right on the money on this one.
The audience is IBOs who want to improve their finances and lifestyle. The message is that Bill has done what they want to do, so it would be a good idea to listen. Your current thought process has gotten you where you are, so it might just take some modifications to get you where you want to be. Listen to Bill because his thought process has gotten him where you want to be.
If you want to be a real estate magnate, study Trump's thought process; a hotel tycoon, study Steve Wynn's thought process. If you want 1.4 million IBOs around the world in your group, study Bill's thought process...
Ok now, back to jedi zenmaster most reverent bishop rabbi Xanadu...
Javert
http://blogstar-thequixtarblog.blogspot.com/
Hey T,
Great opening line:
"I really don't need to prove nothing to you bloggers out there."
The level of your intelligence really shines through in your post (just like all the other one-time visitors to this site trying to bash the critics). Its obvious you've been brainwashed into believing you're a 2% thinker. (By the way, in TEAM we were 5% thinkers) and are somehow superior to us. Well I've got news, YOU'RE NOT.
Gotta love this one too:
"I am 23 years old - debt free outside my home. Have 10s of thousands of dollars in the bank. All because of this business and the people I work with. I have personally met 100s and 100s of people like me. I have never met anyone in a job world that have done that at this age."
You failed to mention if you were even profitable at this business. You could have refinanced your mortgate and rolled your credit card debt into it for all we know.
The rant about dying broke and leaving our children with nothing is a great finishing touch, we've never heard that one before at this forum.
If you make so much money, would you mind telling us what percentage comes from buying/selling products through Quixtar and what percentage comes from selling "The System"?
"Obviously you haven't done jack in your life. (Other wise, why would you spend countless hours thinking and typing up blogs)And of course, look at all the opinions that you have to bring to the table. How can you be such a looser. Go do something with your life. I don't care if its this biz. Quit waisting your life typing. Be a man.....blah blah blah"
^^^This is your brain on Cult.
Class, by the prolific use of rambling Cr@p coming out of this guys fingers, he has given us an excellent example of the "hook, line and sinker cultist."
"How about you big shot? That's what I thought."
^^^ This sort of crazed talking to ones self, is an indicative sign of late stage "Tape worm". Where the Cult approved re-education media has burrowed deep into the cerebral cortex and shut off rational discourse and replaced it with angry rants of Cult defense.
These symptoms, along with poor spelling, boasts of improbable wealth, aggressive attacks of non-believers character and an addiction to buying overpriced products and services, are some of the signs that you or a loved one might have caught a Cult.
Take one XS and please, please....stop calling me.
(Poof! The Quix has left the building)
xan - you are ridiculous, seriously. You cries of cult practices and claims of false religions in AQMOs stink of a self-developed mindset completely void of any actual facts and based solely on a world of speculation and perceived reality that does not allow any rational discussion regarding this business.
Go ahead coolbreeze, call X out on the "cult experts." they have one up their sleeve, Steve Hassan. That's one out of how many? I can find one PhD to trash-talk every subject in this world, controversial or not.
He has nothing to back up his words but his month-by-month calender that proves he did not build the business as he should have and a deep rooted belief in Christianity interpreted by himself.
Serioulsy, i'm with Javert on this one, these one-line "analyzing" posts are ridiculous and show that you are unwilling to have a mutli-faceted discussion, instead you keep to carefully chosen, out of context, "facts" to prove your warped thinking.
Hey Jagvert
You are always most refreshing:
"The audience is IBOs who want to improve their finances and lifestyle. The message is that Bill has done what they want to do, so it would be a good idea to listen. Your current thought process has gotten you where you are, so it might just take some modifications to get you where you want to be. Listen to Bill because his thought process has gotten him where you want to be."
Do you know where the bulk of Britty Boy's money comes from? I'll bet it's not Quixtar. Too bad he'd never show you, one of his beloved kindred spirits, nor me, the evil negative bathroom wall writer.
Hey wcdt, just so you know, people that own a real business can generally spell business. Don't worry, you really didn't prove nothing...looser
rocket: review the public domain document on bill britt from amquix.info you will see his name on about 6-8 seperate businesses, some large businesses such as hotels and car dealerships. So you are right, he used his millions from Amway/Quixtar to invest into other businesses which allow him to make enough to pay $27M a quarter in taxes. You figure the math as to what he makes a year. Much more than all of the critics' lifetime income combined, i bet...
I have to give credit where it is due, and I must admit that I now realize that Bill Britt is a friggin GENIUS.
Re-reading T's and Javert's posts followed by a paragraph of CoolBreeze's, brought on this epiphany....
Most people seeking to to gain power/votes or money using the standard 'us vs. them', class-warfare model, do so by encouraging the underclass that 'the man' is holding them down, and that the only way to 'succeed' is to overthrow 'the man'.
Then our speaker fills in the blank with his own particular ideology of how to achieve this, but always focusing on the hopelessness of the average listener to ever be like 'the man', which fills the coffers or the voting box with the cash and votes of those who he has spurred on in his 'class envy'.
But Bill, he of 'Britt University' fame and fortune, has shown us the light. He has managed to convince the proletariat that if they will only 'change their thinking', which can only be achieved by sinking their money into his 'system', they can be a part of the this upper-class (or is it caste)?
They feel all warm and fuzzy and special, because they are allowed to pretend they are 'part of the 2%'...to wit, CoolBreeze sums it up for us, "Could it be that there are people who are just hungry for acceptance, and who are starving for appreciation. If Bill Britt and others provide those things to these people, don't you think they gain a deeper satisfaction than just 'The Money' ".
How much does this acceptance and appreciation cost?
In polite society, those who sell their affection to a willing party for a fee have a slightly different title than "professor"...
Congratulations Javert,
You successfully bashed me...now would you like to bash my message? I wrote over 10 pages on a very brief analysis of Britts theology system, complete with historical context, history, references, trends, etc. And all you can do is bash me and say without reason that I am stupid and therefore, my message is not valid? Get a grip! My analysis is there, be a real man and tell me what is wrong with it? That's right, you CAN'T, because your message comes from the wacko word-faith people whose message is easily disassembled.
Xan - your "Brief analysis" is filled with your own applied perception of how BWW works and idea that it is controlled solely by Britt himself and a doctrine of "word-faith". It reaks of a similar discord of all clashes in theology - Baptist vs Methodist vs Presbyterian vs Catholic, etcetc. You, with the "historical texts" have chosen to judge as God in what worship is true and what faith guides in ones life. Don't get me wrong, i'm not supporting the wackos that say "send me money or i will be taken to heaven immediately" but i am saying that subconsious programming of the mind through postive interaction, speech and thought is not isolated to this belief or religion and it is practiced, without a doubt, in all things from athletics to business to politics, etc. Visualizing the pass into the endzone, Ali's "I'm the best" cocky speech worked his head into believing it.
I still stand by the fact that your message is twisted by your own beliefs, and because i do not believe as your do, i do not interpret the same "facts" as you do, and your analysis has no substantial base once your perception of the facts is deemed skewed and off base. But please dont hold me to some belief that i cant discredit you to prove a point: you are doing the same with BWW... by discrediting Britt himself and thus BWW, you attempt to show all BWW IBOs to be flawed?...
Brad,
Mafia families have done similar investments of "dirty money" into legitimate businesses to further diversify.
A large portion of these Pin's income originate from the business within a business that creates multi-media and seminars that continue to sell the captive audience the system and teaches them to bring more people in to purchase the system.
Shear the sheep, and teach the sheep to recruit other sheep to be shorn...
Once again, money is being equated to an end all be all of life, and if you measure a man by the weight of his bank account your bound to be disappointed in the IOU of his soul.
IB Toe: money is not the most important thing to me. Platinums and above DO make money on tools, because tools DO serve a purpose when used correctly. Please provide more objective facts, perhaps in some tools discussions on the forum.
"...but i am saying that subconsious programming of the mind through postive interaction, speech and thought is not isolated to this belief or religion and it is practiced, without a doubt, in all things from athletics to business to politics, etc."
I'm just going to sit back and read that a few times. Ok, reading again...wow. An "Independent" Business Owners self-described as supporting subconscious programming of the mind...I don't think much more needs to be said.
I find it amusing how everyone talks about being in that 2% bill britt speaks of, yet meeting after meeting, function after function, there you sit in the audience, part of the 99.99% of people who haven’t “made it”. I’ll give bill britt credit, he probably is a good businessman and guess what? I would guess his most profitable business is selling IBOs tapes books and seminar tickets, while the starry eyed IBOs “dream” that one day they will stand on stage with Mr. britt. Unfortunately, the chance that you will have what it takes and the determination to keep doing it is highly unlikely.
And yes, when you are encourage not to speak to “negative” people about the business, and encouraged not to watch tv or listen to the radio or read the newspaper because it may contain “negative” and to only listen to and emulate the leader (britt), then yes, you have a cult like culture. Oh, and all the while this is happening, the leader is smiling as your assets are slowly transferred to the leader via the sale of tapes books and function
"Stay in denial - that is why you will die broke like the rest of the 98% and leave your kids with nothing. Congratulations! You have discovered " the truth! " Lets go pass it on to all your blog buddies that buy into your crap."
Statements like this remind me once again why debating BWW principles is futile. Sigh...
"Could it be that there are people who are just hungry for acceptance, and who are starving for appreciation. If Bill Britt and others provide those things to these people, don't you think they gain a deeper satisfaction than just 'The Money' ".
"Shear the sheep, and teach the sheep to recruit other sheep to be shorn..."
Sheep always know their own Master's voice (such as our Heavenly Father). The only time they don't answer to their own master's voice is when they are sick or wounded. Then they follow anyone's voice.
That is why BWW is so popular. You get skewed Gospel, automatic friends AND $$. Who could ask for more?
I mean the opportunity to possibly earn $$$.
"Bill Britt is absolutely right. 98% of people out there are in lala land (...) don't understand what being a 2 % is all about."
Where did Bill got this stat?!? AFAIK 7% of people are millionaires. So, he cannot be talking about society in general. Oh, perhaps he's talking about IBO? Nope, because only 0.1638% of IBOs are Q12 Plat. Hm...
"... which allow (Britt) to make enough to pay $27M a quarter in taxes."
How long has he been in biz? So... why isn't he on the list of US billionaires?
That's another thing I've always been curious about. If Quixtar is producing so many millionaires, (assuming that is what they profess--correct me if I'm wrong) wouldn't that be something we'd be hearing about at least in the business world, if not just out there for general information to the public?
Also, I am amazed how many people I've talked to in different parts of the country who have never heard of Quixtar at all (they always know Amway if they are at least 35 years old). I assume that with all the explosive and phenomenal growth that is taking place, Quixtar would be start to be a household name?
Good Old Brad
"review the public domain document on bill britt from amquix.info you will see his name on about 6-8 seperate businesses,"
I thought you should focus only on Quixtar? Surely a leader would lead by example.
By yhe way brad, when you show the plan do you include the tools prfits as part of the presentation?
If so, then what kind of numbers do you throw out that could be made.
If it's not part of your presentation, why not?
Shows you how much a leader he is. I didn't need to be shown what a follower you are brad. You make it pretty clear.
Brad,
Your ignorance of Theology wreaks when you try to speak of it. A baptist, methodist, and presb teach essentially the same things. It is in the mode that they differ. They can and often do come together. Now, protestantism and catholocism will differ on many doctrines, but Word-Faith is a totally different religion. It is actually deism, the belief that an external god made everything to operate according to laws and then stepped out of the picture to let the created thing work itself. As such, if you simply learn how to manipulate those laws, you can overcome the world. That, in a nut shell, is what BWW (as influenced through the Word-Faith teachers) teaches. Yes, I agree that the rest of the world pulls some of those things in as well...welcome to the wide world of epistomology!
Now, did you read my post on my website about Twisted Scriptures, particularly the begining where I talk about asolutes and proper interpretation? I will not repeat it because it is there.
Now, I do not have a applied perception of how BWW works, if you remember, I was fully under the influence as you are today. I have listened to over 500 tapes, many repeatedly (about 12 a day on average). I have read over 150 books (up to 16 a month), I have attended and believed in every single function since I got in except one meeting because it was the same day as a critical work-related function. I sat across tables with EDCs at leadership meetings, etc. I know full well how BWW works; it is not a perceieved notion of some kind that arrived from an academic excercise, but true committed involvement!
If you read my post called Imagine for a moment, you will see that I say that Bill does not control the system, but his influence (which arose with the Word-Faith teachers) is what spread through the system.
Your next allegation:
You, with the "historical texts" have chosen to judge as God in what worship is true and what faith guides in ones life.
is interesting. You are a little (but not much) off the mark. You are correct in that God is the judge, not me. I am, however, not judging, I am warning, because God himself commanded every true believer to measure ALL THINGS off the truth of the Bible. While it is correct that God is the judge, it is His Word, the Bible, that he judges by. Now, if you were doing something wrong, would you want the janitor to tell you, or the CEO? I am the janitor, I hold no power in the kingdom, but I have read the manual and I am asked to correct anyone who claims to be a believer and I am commanded to share the Gospel with those that are not. I will boldly proclaim both of those.
Rocket and other CRITICS:
Its obvious that Bill Britt is an extraordinary leader. Whether you agree with him, his businesses, or his teachings, you can't ignore the fact that he start at 0 on the PB chart and now has close to 2 million IBOs world wide.
You don't do that by being a BAD Leader.
Once again, probably one of the biggest mistakes made was not being open about the tool incomes. Since I have been a part of the business, the leaders have openly talked about to common sense behind being compensated for teaching and training.
It dosen't seem like there is a real problem with the idea of money being made from tools, but the fact that it hasn't always been openly spoken about.
I also keep hearing Critics talk about how the compensation for tools should be dealt with.
In my mind fairness means who ever has contributed to the tool system the most should be compensated at a larger amount. CAM all the way down to Gold Direct.
Its rediculous to think that someone who has not achieved even the Gold level in business should recieve any of those profits. They haven't earned them yet.
I don't care how much they cry about it. If they were doing the right kind of work in the right amount of time, they would at least go Gold.
As much as some on this site would love it, and many others in this country, THIS IS NOT A COMMUNISTIC SOCIETY. He who works the hardest and is the best competitor wins.
So much fun to snark. CoolBreeze, I'm going to make an attempt to write in your tone while addressing the flaws in your logic, here goes:
"Coolbreeze and other FOLLOWERS,
Its obvious that Adolf HItler was an extraordinary leader. Whether you agree with him, his politics, or his teachings, you can't ignore the fact that he started from nothing and ended up killing tens of millions of Jews.
You don't do that by being a BAD leader.
Once again, probably one of the biggest mistakes made was not being open about WHO he was killing. Since I have been a part of the party, the leaders have openly talked about the common sense behind being compensated for brainwashing and showering."
Ok, I'll stop now because that was childish. The real point is that yes, Bill Britt has succeeded wonderfully, and yes, you too can make lots of money if you emulate him. But the way to do that is not to be a hard-working entrepreneur, it's to sell the *idea* to a lot of other people that *they* should be hard-working entrepreneurs. Don't you realize that you're being sold an idea and told to resell that idea and not actually performing a service? And the core of that idea is that you should sacrifice your personal well-being, in the hopes that you can prey on others in the same way until you "succeed".
Fake it till you make it.
I prefer to work till I make it.
Yes, in a JOB.
Maybe even a real business of my own one day.
An independent one where I think how I want to.
Oh, long live the snark.
Josh,
You've just proven that many QBlog Critics can be just as disrespectful and just as irrational as some of the IBO fanatics who check this site out.
Comparing Adolf Hitler with Bill Britt is very uncouth and dis-tasteful.
Learn some respect.
All of you critics are goint to have to start accepting that Am/Quix is not going away, and more importantly you're dealing with a new breed of IBOs.
I'm not denegrating jobs or hard work. I thank god that I have a job that supports my family.
This isn't the AMWAY of the 70s and 80s.
We're not selling an idea. We're selling products, and some very good ones I might ad. XS, Zenso teas, Protein bars, and all of the other stuff in Store for More and Partner Stores.
We're training others how to sell and how to lead large groups of people.
You're a dinasaur Josh. Get a life!
You missed my point - I called the tactic childish. All I wanted to do was show that with a few simple replacements, your words took on a very different meaning. The purpose was that your rhetoric relies on logical fallacies, and I wanted to show by example. But obviously that flew waaaaayyyy over your head.
Why didn't you respond to the following paragraph, the one that was said in full seriousness? I'll say it again to give you another opportunity:
"The real point is that yes, Bill Britt has succeeded wonderfully, and yes, you too can make lots of money if you emulate him. But the way to do that is not to be a hard-working entrepreneur, it's to sell the *idea* to a lot of other people that *they* should be hard-working entrepreneurs. Don't you realize that you're being sold an idea and told to resell that idea and not actually performing a service? And the core of that idea is that you should sacrifice your personal well-being, in the hopes that you can prey on others in the same way until you "succeed"."
And for the record, my girlfriend's family is in the BWW branch of Quixtar. They are not being told how to sell the products, they are being told how to recruit.
"The real point is that yes, Bill Britt has succeeded wonderfully, and yes, you too can make lots of money if you emulate him. But the way to do that is not to be a hard-working entrepreneur, it's to sell the *idea* to a lot of other people that *they* should be hard-working entrepreneurs." JOSH
Josh,
Please explain how ACTUALLY (not "average IBO" Blogspeak stat)building a Platinum and above business dosen't require hard work or entrepreneurial flair.
Learning how to do accurate bookkeeping. Taxes. Marketing. Sales. Distrobution. Maybe soem inventory to service customers. Training of the sales force.
But you wouldn't know because you're not an IBO. Maybe you were an "average IBO" which still means that you don't know.
"And for the record, my girlfriend's family is in the BWW branch of Quixtar." JOSH
So just like many CRITICS on this site, your insite on what BWW does or does not teach comes from third parties, heresay, innuendo, and tabloid TV shows.
This thread started off with X using a quote from John Crowe, insinuating that Bill Britt's "fruits" only have to do with money.
Do you think that it might be possible the IBOs want emmulate Bill, not JUST for money? That we might enjoy his frankness, his boldness. That we might enjoy the teachings on Manhood and leadership.
Do you truly know if anyone has taught me to "sacrifice my personal well being" or is that just GOSSIP you heard from your girlfriends family?
Here's some advice in the tone used here on QBLOG:
Think for yourself and stop being brainwashed by the other CRITICS with their unoriginal BLOGSPEAK!
Your QBLOG leadership makes good KOOL-AID too!
"Learning how to do accurate bookkeeping. Taxes. Marketing. Sales. Distrobution. Maybe some inventory to service customers. Training of the sales force."
If that's what 90% of your time consists of, then great. I do question, however, why you would want to be involved in a business where 99% of the other people in the business, the ones you deride as "average" IBOs, are losers who don't do those things.
More importantly, I ask why you recruit losers like that, unless you want to claim that 90% of the people you've recruited are making in excess of $30,000-40,000/year from Quixtar, net. If that's the case, then once again, great for you.
And no, I was never one of those "average" losers, consisting of the vast majority of Quixtar IBOs. Does that make it, "third parties, heresay, innuendo, and tabloid TV shows", or (in large letters), "GOSSIP"? I would not discount such knowledge so easily.
Have you ever murdered anyone? Dealt crack cocaine? Stolen candy from a baby? I haven't either - I guess my feelings about those things being wrong are just, well, GOSSIP.
When it comes to personal and business morality, there are simply some issues that I would prefer not to "give a try." Quixtar is among them.
Josh,
Good Logic
Adolf Hitler = Bill Britt
Crack Dealers = Quixtar IBOs
I didn't say I was recruiting losers. It's just that many people quit the business after they figure out it requires work.
I'm just pointing out that using some statistics that many CRITICS use, isn't really a accurate picture of this business, because of all of the other variables that may go into having financial success through this opportunity.
Mainly having enough GUTS, to actually talk to a customer, or prospect, or having enough Character to finish what you've started.
But you wouldn't know about either since you've don't know what you're talking about.
Heh...so they come in thinking it doesn't require work? Who's fault is that, exactly? Especially after the purchases they make before they quit still count towards you.
What's wrong with the statistics, exactly? Yes, any time an indvidual decides to start a retail-type business, they will need confidence and poise. But the average business have the failure rates that the average IBO has, especially since the average small business owner doesn't have thousands of tapes teaching, "accurate bookkeeping. Taxes. Marketing. Sales. Distrobution. Maybe some inventory to service customers. Training of the sales force." And don't give tapespeak about how many other businesses fail - those statistics are flat-out lies and are easily disproven.
And once again, it is very possible to know things without experiencing them. Never use that argument again.
Correcting a typo, the above should read:
"But the average business does not have"
I have to agree with Josh. He makes some great points, and the Hitler insert was very effective in making a valid point. The "so-many-million-people-can't-be wrong" arguement doesn't hold water.
A for being an observer of my IBO inlaws and not truly understanding what they believe, I've often thought that I'd love to attend one of the weekend funtions, just to see what it is like, but I can't justify the cost, especially if it is out of cuiosity. Then again, could I get my money back if I find that the weekend wasn't helpful to me?
"Do you think that it might be possible the IBOs want emmulate Bill, not JUST for money? That we might enjoy his frankness, his boldness."
How about his infidelity? Though I can be quite frank at times and even bold, if you ask my wife, I'll bet she prefers that I emulate someone who keeps their promises when no one is looking. Bill Britt is not that person.
Kendall,
That's cool but can you prove the "alleged" infidelity. The accusations look pretty solid but nonetheless no one knows either way.
I still don't think that you can make the stretch from someone who may or may not have cheated on his wife, to a crook or definitely some type of cult leader.
It's a pretty amzing coincidence that Mr. britt suddenly stopped attending functions for a while when this alleged affair was exposed though.
As always, when confronted with the truth,
use rumors andaccusations to make personal attacks. Real grown up tactic.
The bottom line on this topic is that Bill Britt has 30+ platinum and above legs. Dexter Yager has 30+ platinum legs. More-so, their organizations make up the largest, fastest growing portions of the Quixtar business.
If an IBO wants to succeed in the Quixtar business, there is no-one more quialified to teach than these two men.
Correction: If an IBO wants to succeed in the Quixtar business, there is no-one more quialified to teach than these two men except for the critics on this site with their vast wealth of business-building knowledge.
Javert
http://blogstar-thequixtarblog.blogspot.com/
Javert, are you saying that the TRUTH
is bill britt did not have an affair?
Can you enlighten the audience here as to how you know that to be the truth?
Joe and Kendall,
As my posts above have indicated, I'm not a big fan of the Quixtar model, especially with regards to recruitment tactics.
I know nothing about Mr. Britt's family, and for that matter find the issue pretty much irrelevant. Ad hominem attacks are as distracting and low a tactic as the tactic of insulting and demeaning the people who either never try or quit Quixtar.
Furthermore, as a current Duke student, I've recently had a front row seat on how people accused of improper personal behavior are treated, without proper evidence.
Feel free to attack Mr. Britt's business strategy, as I do, but please refrain from mixing in rumors about his personal life that have little to nothing to do with Quixtar.
Are you Josh or coolbreeze?
bill once said he would get violent if anyone messed with his wife. If it's true (affair), he's a big fat hypocrite. He also said amway is all you need. Don't invest in anything else. Also a big fat hypocritical statment, especially when he lost 5 million on a ponzi scheme.
Yes, it's me, although I don't know of any way to prove it on this site other than my style of writing.
And all I was trying to say is that I think it's possible to separate a man's personal life from his business acumen. Certainly, there may be a correlation, but I prefer not to chase red herrings. There are strong indications that Michael Jordan, of all people, cheated on his wife - I'm not going to assume based on that alone that he was embezzling more money than he deserved from Nike.
Mostly I guess I just don't like delving into the personal lives of others, when I can do perfectly well enough attacking the things that are right there out in the open.
Josh, I understand your point, and ordinarily, it wouldn't matter, but BWW leaders and those in other LOSs are usually presented by themselves and others as people who have integrity in ALL aspects of their lives. In fact, during my time in BWW (I just quit in Feb of this year, so it's very recent), we were told by the diamonds that one couldn't go diamond unless on had grown personally.
Ordinarily, a person's personal life wouldn't be an issue, but the business "leaders" have themselves made it an issue.
Were you ever involved in the business? If you were, you would understand that for a CORE person, it takes over practically your entire life and your upline is your mentor in virtually all things. That's why it's a big deal.
Rara,
You hit the nail on the head. Since Bill Britt has taken on the role of preacher, he HAS made his personal life an issue.
From what I've seen, (documents from newspapers--legal announcements. etc.) Britt has not been faithful. Do I expect him to be perfect. Of course not; no human being is. But since he is preacher of the Word and a role model of faith, he would gain my respect if he would only have the integrity to confess what he has done and take responsibility for what he has done it. THAT would be the respectable thing to do.
He has chosen to mix preaching the Word with a money-making opportunity--a dangerous combination.
Because of Britt's actions and lack of responsibility, if I were to buy any quixtar products, I would choose to NOT buy them from a person in BWW.
coolbreeze,
Could you kindly point out what on the Dateline show was a "spin"? I saw that show and I certainly didn't see anything untrue.
Also, do yuo remember that 60 minutes also did a segment on amway and it was basically the same thing. Did 60 minutes "spin" a story also?
I just recently beat an aspiring "motivator" down for trying to recruit my wife, with private coaching lessons where he would use personal issues in her life that she has had trouble with as a sales pitch. i dont want her to be involved in this cult.
Yes coolbreeze do tell. I have yet to see any pro Quix person define exactly what was incorrect about Dateline.
The problem is, most LOS are run as the way as depicted on that show.
If Dateline was incorrect, do you not think Quixtar would be all over that?
Inquiringmind and Rara both beat me to it. If you don't want your "Leaders" being flamed, then maybe they should take their advice on good living to somewhere other than a business function. Then the two topics wouldn't be associated to one another.
I don't know what they'd talk about though, if they removed their little pearls of wisdom from their speeches.
Rara and Rocket are spot o. No one would care about bill britt's affair if he didn't preach the 0% divorce rate among active IBOs, that he would get violent if someone messed with his wife. The fact that quixtar diamonds divorcing wouldn't be an issue if they didn't promote quixtar as a marriage counseling business and the teaching system wouldn't have nearly as much criticism if not promoted as foolproof and the fact that diamonds make the lion's share of their income from the tools.
I guess the BWW folks have been left speechless.
I think it's pretty funny though, a big fat old man like Bill Britt threatening that he'll get violent if someone messes with his wife.
What's he gonna do? Beat you in a hot dog eating contest? Throw a can of XS at you?
Whatever
Rocket, here's bill's quote from an FED speech: "Somebody mess with my wife, or my car, or my money, they're in trouble. Amen? I'd get violent."
Seems hypocritical to me.
I really can't express how non-intimidated I would be by round boy Billy Britt or that little weasel Dexter Yager.
"Somebody mess with my wife, or my car, or my money, they're in trouble. Amen? I'd get violent."
Maybe don't be such a fat, pompous, know it all old bastard and your wife wouldn't want anyone else.
Rocket, bill also told people not to diversify. Amway is secure, amway is all you need. Don't lose your focus
doing other things, amway is all you need.
I wonder why he had an affair and invested in a ponzi scheme?
There's so many great one liners here from CoolBreeze that I don't know where to start.
I'm just pointing out that using some statistics that many CRITICS use, isn't really a accurate picture of this business, because of all of the other variables that may go into having financial success through this opportunity.
Please expand on the other opportunities for financial success with Quixtar.
Mainly having enough GUTS, to actually talk to a customer, or prospect, or having enough Character to finish what you've started.
When did approaching total strangers at the mall or a the local Wal-Mart become a badge of honor? What does character have anything to do with finishing what you started?
How about having ability to step back and use some critical thinking skills and objectively examine the Quixtar business?
Rocket,
"when you show the plan do you include the tools prfits(sic) as part of the presentation?"
You mean there's money to be made in tools too?
Do you really want IBO's to be telling prospects there is a second way to be profitable in the business?
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the "critics"?
Your comment,
"I have yet to see any pro Quix person define exactly what was incorrect about Dateline"
Look at this site,
www.quixtarresponse.com
It's been refuted well enough on there.
You're comments are truly laughable.
Hide behind a computer and tell people that you wouldn't be intimidated, LOL!
Thanks for being the entertainer "rocket".
Michael,
"Do you really want IBO's to be telling prospects there is a second way to be profitable in the business?"
I want prospects to understand two-thirds of the incomes of the Diamonds and Emeralds comes from sales of tapes, seminars, and functions. I want prospects to understand that they will have no part of the income stream until they at least hit platinum. I want prospects to understand that while the chances are likely that they will lose money as a Quixtar IBO, their upline Platinum and above will be making money off of their participation in the tool business (aka the real business).
I'm for the opportunity of the little guy. What attracted me most about the IDEA of Quixtar was the opportunity for the new person to succeed. The sad reality is the anemic Quixtar opportunity has been destroyed by the greed of the Quixtar corp in high prices and the greed of the kingpins in their tool and system profits.
What a lovely match both Quixtar and the Kingpins make. Quixtar doesn't have enough guts to make real changes to their business and the Kingpins, like Bill Britt with his wife, lack the loyalty to their downline to not fleece them of any profits they actually do make.
Can you prove 2/3 income comes from tools?
If so, please do. Scans of materials, court documents, etc all apply. And considering the size of the group (Emeralds and above? 1000's wordwide) you must provide a statistically significant sample to draw conclusions.
Thanks.
Brad> Can you prove 2/3 income comes from tools?
Joe> Read Ruth Carter's book or look at the blog post by former diamond Don Lorencz, or Bo Short' article.
That's 3 diamonds who verified that about 80% of income came from tools and not amway/quixtar.
Michael> "I have yet to see any pro Quix person define exactly what was incorrect about Dateline"
Look at this site,
www.quixtarresponse.com
Joe> So quixtar said the show was inaccurate. The question is:
What was inaccurate about it? PLease, someone tell me.
As far as I know 60 minutes is very reputable and they also did a show on amway and it was pretty much the same.
Hi Michael. So nice to see you are actually posting something of your own today instead of cutting and pasting someone else's works. Good Job! You're on the path to thinking for yourself!
I guess my comments about your pathetic overwight demi God got under your skin.
"Do you really want IBO's to be telling prospects there is a second way to be profitable in the business?"
I think that the fact that people aren't profitable for the most part with the primary portion of the business makes your little statement there rather foolish. My question still stands. Is motivation profits part of your business plan? If not, why not?
Yes, I've seen the Quixtar response. They still don't point out what Dateline reported on that was incorrect. If you were just a wee bit smarter, you'd understand that the Quixtar response was a case study in spin doctoring.
Quixtar would have to take a giant leap from where your little "business" is at now in order to silence the critics. There's just too much obviously criticizeable right now.
Too bad you aren't bright enough to recognize it.
And that, my good man is what's truly laughable.
three diamonds who got in trouble/lost their business/basically failed due to their way of doing business... it tells me: if you do business their way, you will fail.
Rocket,
Nothing you said got "under my skin", LOL! I found your posts quite hilarious.
Ever hear the phrase, "sticks and stones"?
Also, I find the "rocket's rant's" links to be equally hilarious. Linking to a blog that has been deleted a while ago, LOL!
Is motivation profits part of your business plan?
No they are not, but I agree they should be, if that is the business you are promoting.
If not, why not?
Because I tend to focus more on retail profits instead of motivational profits as a legitimate business model.
So IBO's are profitable in one argument, but for the sake of another arguement, they aren't?
Brad> three diamonds who got in trouble/lost their business/basically failed due to their way of doing business... it tells me: if you do business their way, you will fail.
Joe> Who said they failed? One diamond in Ruth Carter's book was making 3 million a year. 2.7 million from tools and the rest from quixtar/amway. But his expenses and lavish lifestyle ate up his profit. Bo Short did not fail, he quit after he tried to fix the corruption and Don Lorencz was on the speaking tour for 20 years making a good living, he just wasn't qualified as a diamond for 19.5 of his 20 years on stage.
Joecool,
I just have to post one question about your comment:
"Bo Short did not fail, he quit..."
With that line of thought is it safe to assume that most critics think like that? By using that very argument(from which I've heard time and time again) that the critic's did NOT fail, they quit BEFORE they failed, or before they "failed" even more(But, of course, they didn't fail-they quit)...
If that's the case in which you believe that "quitters are not failures", then how can you even remotely consider blaming the system for failures if there aren't any failures to blame, only quitters?
Bo Short quit when he learned he could not effect change on unethical ools practices. I hardly call that failure.
Joecool,
How many attempts did he try to impliment change before he quit?
Michael, go do a google on Bo Short, he's got his own website.
Michael - "Because I tend to focus more on retail profits instead of motivational profits as a legitimate business model.
Good for you Michael. Have you found a way to actually move large volumes of (overpriced) product yet? That would actually make for a compelling original post on your blog.
Michael - "So IBO's are profitable in one argument, but for the sake of another arguement, they aren't?"
No, that's not what the point is at all. Zzzziiiinnnnggg! Right over your melon again.
First off, I've never ever stated that I think rank and file IBO's are profitable. I really don't see how it is possible to be profitable to the point of having motorcoaches, no job, multi-million dollar homes etc...
When people do start getting the aforementioned material things, the money that buys those things is from selling ill informed or simply unintelligent people "motivation". It's not from being good at the Quixtar business.
You can say what you like about Rocket's Rants. There's more individuality in one of my posts than in all of your entire blog.
But then again, I'm not trying to duplicate anyone else's pretend "success"
Rocket,
Nice sound effects. Also, did you read the part about "Comments containing flames, trolls, or personal attacks are discouraged"? I highly suggest you follow that advice. Also, If you don't like my blog, please, I highly invite you to NOT read it. Internet trolls are not welcome.
Valid point, and an excellent comeback.
You sure can debate until the facts get in your way.
Don't consider it a personal attack Michael. It's simply pointing out the obvious. If you don't like the message, fix it.
I highly suggest, my good man, that you follow that advice.
JC: " But his expenses and lavish lifestyle ate up his profit."
B> I call that failure. The people i get financial advice from promote, and live, lifestyles below their means. his lack of self control led to failure. Bo Short and Don Lorencz were flash-in-the-pan qualified. Like insider, i am a big fan of founders pins.
It is absolutely RIDICULOUS how you hold Don Lorencz up as an example! He did exactly what you despise: parade around LIKE a diamond when he didnt qualify. Yet for some reason, you forgive him... But current efforts of Quixtar and AMOs to "clean up" whatever mess is out there, you cast aside so you can keep harping on Directly Speaking tapes of 1983, and the '60 minutes' of the early 80s?
Conclusion: Dont live beyond your means a la Ruth Carters Diamond, Dont parade around for 20 years as a fake diamond a la Don, and don't buy your diamondship to let it fall to below 7500 when you "sold it" to start your own business which was well in the works BEFORE leaving quixtar thus a complete disregard to the rules and regulations in place, a la Bo Short. (What other rules might he have broken?...)
Just for Xanadustc:
Regarding your theory that BWW and other AMOs must be a cult offspring of "Word Faith" how about you explore the other faiths and people of hte world that say words are powerful?
Example: "A Buddhist friend once told me that the words that you say form a force field of attraction around you. "
http://www.escapefromcubiclenation.com/get_a_life_blog/2006/05/how_do_you_intr.html
your "analysis" is no more professional commentary than it is weekly political cartoon. Sorry.
Brad> It is absolutely RIDICULOUS how you hold Don Lorencz up as an example! He did exactly what you despise: parade around LIKE a diamond when he didnt qualify. Yet for some reason, you forgive him... But current efforts of Quixtar and AMOs to "clean up" whatever mess is out there, you cast aside so you can keep harping on Directly Speaking tapes of 1983, and the '60 minutes' of the early 80s?
Joe> Are you deluded? I didn't forgive him, he stated that he made 80% of his money from tools!
And the dateline show keeps coming up because IBOs keep saying it's inaccurate but FAIL to point out what was inaccurate. The quixtar response says it was inaccurate, but also FAILED to point out what was inaccurate. Someone please tell me what was inaccurate.
/lurking off/
joecool: me thinks many of the q-pros are just in denial about most everything negative in the tool business. Close friend of mine for 20+ years who's a TEAMster is concerned that it just *MIGHT* not be what he's being taught. He's been on system for a year - and I can't even get him to WATCH the NBC Dateline video. He's holding on for the *chance* that Q is his ticket out. Really sad. I get the sense: "Don't rock my world"
/lurking on/
I forgot to add this link I stumbled on today...forgive me if this seems off topic, but I think it speaks to the heart of double-speak at Q and the AMOs.
See the official fraud warning at this quixtar website:
http://quixtarnewsroom.com/fraud_alerts.html
Now, I will really retreat to my lurking status. ;)
No one can deny that "generally speaking", quixtar is a poor business opportunity for most who get involved.
Do you know what is inaccurate? The general portrayal that all IBOs say "quarter of a million in 6-12 months" is possible and you sit in a candlelight room crying at functions. NEITHER of which i have EVER experienced nor heard anyone else in my group experience, and i'm BWW.
Congratulations Dateline, they found a wacko IBO. Honestly, i bet they had hours and hours of more video of GOOD people in the business, but because this yahoo was news worthy they put him on. THAT, jc, is what is inaccurate.
As for quixtar being a poor business opportunity: if you were to take the American population as they are now, ANY business opportunity would be bad for the average person because they do not have the desire, will, follow-through, action, consistency, nor determination to be a successful business owner. Are you deluded to that fact, JC?
The statistics don't back you up on your last statement Brad. According to the SBA, after 4 years, 40% of all American businesses that have associates (employees) are still open and operating under the same ownership as when they opened! I would venture to say over 50% are still open, because the 40% does not include businesses that have been sold by the original owner to new owners.
40% is still less then a majority, but you didn't say the majority of people are too lazy, you said the average person is too lazy, Brad. And with 40% still open under the original owner, there are plenty of "average" people represented in that group!
Brad,
When my inlaws first showed the plan to me and my husband, I had this weird feeling about it--all the emotion that seemed to be connected with it, how everything was suddenly awesome, how any questions seemed to go unanswered. I said it seemed almost like a cult. Of course, they chuckled and said they get that a lot. Choosing to be skeptical because so many things just didn't make sense and weren't clear, we became the couple that "just didn't get it."
I went home and googled "quixtar cult" and believe it or not, I found out that I wasn't the only person who felt that Quixtar had some very cult-like qualities.
Brad, not all cults are as obvious as Jonestown. There are definite aspects of the MO's that fit the cult criteria.
Is BWW part of a cult? I'm not sure how to answer that, but I do believe that a segment of its population is being manipulatively led along BWW's path due to some cult-friendly activities and practices.
If you need to have these activites pointed out to you, I can gladly do so.
DMM, you misread. I did not say a majority of business owners, i said a majority of American citizens, including those who never even attempt business! (never attempt for the reasons pointed out above.)
Thank you IM. you, and Steve Hasaan, and others are in agreement and i dismiss it. Sorry. (UH OH, another sign of a cult! i say it isnt a cult!...)
Not even QBlog believes as you do.
If it was a cult, how would i be here writing to you now? How would i be able to ask the questions and build my business i currently am? (emphasis off of downline, more on retail)?
As for accusation and perception, here are some links for you:
http://www.zejn.si/~natan/666.html
Uh oh...
http://www.workers.org/2006/world/wal-mart-0525/
Flower sellers beware!
You see, your opinion takes hold because YES, there are some aspects of cults that are shared by any motivational organization or cohesive team, and the lovely Steve Hassan has put a big name behind it. But i would be more worried about groups like wlym and others rather than a group of independent business owners with shared ideals and goals that for the most part uplift and provide for other people rather than tear them down.
Brad, have you sipped purple kool aid? What "general potrayal" that all IBOs make outrageous income claims? They interviewed a high level IBO and that's what he said to the camera, behind the scenes. I've seen even more outrageous claims off the camera as well. The fact that IBOs even claim to make money (Sally, R. Halling) is a joke. They cook their books based on twisted upline teaching. As for the poor sap crying at the function, the show was taped at an actual BWW function. Exactly what was inaccurate about that? It's exactly what I remember in major functions.
Brad> As for quixtar being a poor business opportunity: if you were to take the American population as they are now, ANY business opportunity would be bad for the average person because they do not have the desire, will, follow-through, action, consistency, nor determination to be a successful business owner. Are you deluded to that fact, JC?
So given the fact that small businesses have a 40% chance of making it and in quixtar, you have a .001% chance, why even bother with quixtar?
To second joecool's point about the person crying at the function, my sponsor once told me how his sponsor was holding up his wife's hand during one of the singing sessions and crying because he wanted to "get it done" so badly.
The fact that people cry during these things is not surprising when you think about the total emotional investment people put into this business. They are told that they have to be 100% sold out to the biz (one of the reasons I started to back down even before I found out about the tool scam) and that things won't start happening until the business goes from their heads to their hearts.
Brad, as to QBlog and the cult thing, I do remember QBlog saying that Q is not a cult, but if I also remember correctly, he has stated that the systems are cultlike. I will look for a link.
Here are some posts were QBlog comments about whether Quixtar or the LOSs are cults:
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2002/11/is_this_a_cult.php
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2003/03/quixtar_and_cults_again.php
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2003/06/amazing_grace.php
Here, he actually links to Steve Hassan's website:
http://tinyurl.com/rqrdx
I agree with QBlog that the Quixtar corporation is not a cult (obviously). But if the LOSs aren't cults, at least BWW in my experience, I don't know what is. Sure, people aren't physically poisoning themselves like the Jonestown cult members, but it's still a cult, in my opinion. At the very least, it operates like one. And the fact that that isn't as obvious as it was with the Waco and Jonestown folks makes it all the more insidious, in my opinion.
I remember after I quit feeling mortified that I had been part of a cult.
JC: "The fact that IBOs even claim to make money (Sally, R. Halling) is a joke. They cook their books based on twisted upline teaching"
B> Why are IBOs advised to stay away from sites like these, and people like you? Because it doesnt matter what they say, you still believe this, despite all evidence and claims to the contrary, and will shout it to the hills for anyone within earshot to hear...
the statistics again: YOu are claiming that the business models INDEPENDET OF ALL OTHER VARIABLES leads to this success rate. I argue, as with insider and a few others, you leave out the individual who is the largest contributing factor to this statistic.
And again, i didnt say business owners, i said american citizens in general, thanks for paying attention.
Rara, the link is here: http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/about/
quote: "I heard Quixtar is a cult, is that true?
No. The Branch Davidians were a cult. Quixtar is a business, not a cult. Some of the things Quixtar does are often compared to a cult and honestly seem very cult-like but they are not a cult. Many businesses employ some of the very same motivational techniques that Quixtar uses. This does not make them a cult. "
Don't act like i havent read it, or am at a loss for research or facts...
I posted a comment with more links but its posting has been delayed. Here it is again:
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2002/11/is_this_a_cult.php
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2003/03/quixtar_and_cults_again.php
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2003/06/amazing_grace.php
Here, he actually links to Steve Hassan's website:
http://tinyurl.com/rqrdx
I agree with QBlog that the Quixtar corporation is not a cult (obviously). But if the LOSs aren't cults, at least BWW in my experience, I don't know what is. Sure, people aren't physically poisoning themselves like the Jonestown cult members, but it's still a cult, in my opinion. At the very least, it operates like one. And the fact that that isn't as obvious as it was with the Waco and Jonestown folks makes it all the more insidious, in my opinion.
I remember after I quit feeling mortified that I had been part of a cult.
Brad,
"you leave out the individual who is the largest contributing factor to this statistic".
So how do you explain my favorite stats that 7% of household is millionaire? How come in general population there are 7% individuals that achieve a measureable success status, yet in Quixtar it's only 0.1% (I'm generous and count only Q12 Plat, not Diamond).
Is there less lazy/unmotivated/not interested in business/blah..blah..blah in general population vs. in Quixtar?
As insider said:
"It's quite possible that 10% of IBOs are millionaire households. Whether they are Q12 platinum or not is irrelevant to whether they are millionaire households or not. Your two premises in no way support your conclusion. May be true, may be false, but your argument certainly doesn't support the conclusion."
Let me get this straight. For the majority of people, owning a business would be a losing proposition because of how they are. Yet, to grow big in Quixtar, you need to recruit a large number of people beneath you? See the inherent problem?
Sure you can retail, but Quixtar is a niche market. Customers are hard to find, and the competition (Wal-Mart, Target, Costco) is hard to beat. Even if just 1/4 of all IBO's try to retail, their average would only be 1 member/client per IBO!.
With that, to grow really big, you must build a downline from a pool of people, the majority of which aren't going to be good business owners. Quite the challenge.
All the while, you and some of your ill-equipped downline are going to be spending $100 or more on tools to help build your business. Not a bad gig to be a kingpin.
DMM> Let me get this straight. For the majority of people, owning a business would be a losing proposition because of how they are. Yet, to grow big in Quixtar, you need to recruit a large number of people beneath you? See the inherent problem?
B> Yep. That is why there are training systems. To take the average person and show them the qualities that past business owners and world shappers shared so they may develop them and apply it to the qstar business, their job, or whatever.
Back to what i said: "American population as they are now, " That means, pre-business training. Some get business training from MBA, some from trial and error, some from coaching programs such as Rich Dad or BWW/N21/WWDB/etc.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Brad,
yup, insider's response that you quote adequately explain this:
in general population there are 7% individuals that achieve a measureable success status, yet in Quixtar it's only 0.1%.
I'll let the reader make up their own mind.
So, Brad, what's the percentage of people who can acheive business ownership success before Quixtar training? We know the percentage after Quixtar training (less then 1% ever reach platinum or above), and I'm just trying to figure out how good Quixtar LOS's do.
Of course, the less then 1% success rate doesn't really jive with the SBA 40% rate, now does it? I read somewhere there are about 17 million small businesses with associates (I think it was an SBA statistic). That means in a population of 400 million, just over 4% of the population own a small business with associates (actual number is higher because of partners). Now, remember, 40% of these are still open and owned by the same people after 4 years, meaning for the average population, using the low 4% number, 2% of the population are successful business owners after four years! What was the Quixtar success rate again?
"in general population there are 7% individuals that achieve a measureable success status, yet in Quixtar it's only 0.1%.
I'll let the reader make up their own mind."
B> Yes, the reader will see your ignorance of causality and leaving out crucial variables in this situation proves this statistic as worthless as "Average" IBO talk for descrediting a $Billion business...
And DMM- the success thing again. The beauty of Quixtar is success is defined by the IBO. Your implant of a definition of success underminds their independence and whatever dreams or goals they strive for. Sad, really.
And since youa re getting serious about these statistics, how about you post some links and some proof to them. As much as i like speculation and hearsay, lets stick to what can be proven.
"...your ignorance of causality and leaving out crucial variables in this situation proves this statistic as worthless as "Average" IBO talk for descrediting a $Billion business..."
What causality and what crucial variable am I missing, o Brad? We're talking about ordinary people doing ordinary things and achieving ordinary result, which somehow is VERY EXTRAORDINARY when viewed under Quixtar.
Hm... general population success rate is better than Quix. So, there MUST be a 'causality and crucial variables' that's missing...
Ahh, but any IBO who's buying tools is successful right?
Brad> Why are IBOs advised to stay away from sites like these, and people like you? Because it doesnt matter what they say, you still believe this, despite all evidence and claims to the contrary, and will shout it to the hills for anyone within earshot to hear...
Joe> Brad' not good at challenges, but here's one. Show me something I have posted that was untrue.
Brad says> As insider said:
"It's quite possible that 10% of IBOs are millionaire households
Joe> Yes, but 9.99% of those 10% IBOs
with millionaire status are probably of millionaire status for some reason other than quixtar (jobs, inheritance, other businesses)
Brad, you gonna point out all the lies you claim I'm spinning on this board or will you go crawl under a rock now?
B> Some get business training from MBA, some from trial and error, some from coaching programs such as Rich Dad or BWW/N21/WWDB/etc...
RL> How come in general population there are 7% individuals that achieve a measureable success status, yet in Quixtar it's only 0.1% (I'm generous and count only Q12 Plat, not Diamond)?
CK> Because one 'business training program' actually teaches useful skills and principles, and the other one exists solely to prommulgate itself and cannibalize it's customers?
Brad "Thank you IM. you, and Steve Hasaan, and others are in agreement and i dismiss it. Sorry."
IM> That's because you probably have no idea what the tactics are that are cult-like and how distructive they can be.
Brad "Not even QBlog believes as you do."
IM> So?
Brad "But i would be more worried about groups like wlym and others rather than a group of independent business owners with shared ideals and goals that for the most part uplift and provide for other people rather than tear them down."
IM> Sometimes in BWW's method of "uplifting" and "providing," people do get misled and taken advantage of.
The world is full of people who desparately need uplifting and to be provided with support and encouragement. Some will follow BWW's plan to the tee simply because they want and need that support, and in doing so, stay in a business that continues to drive them deeper in debt. But they so crave the acceptance and support from the group and can't imagine life without their support group. That is not constructive nor in the person's best interest.
Brad,
I tried to post twice yesterday, but for some reason my posts were being moderated. Anyway, here are my links to the issue of QBlog and whether Quixtar is a cult:
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2002/11/is_this_a_cult.php
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2003/03/quixtar_and_cults_again.php
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2003/06/amazing_grace.php
Here, he actually links to Steve Hassan's website:
http://tinyurl.com/rqrdx
I agree with QBlog that the Quixtar corporation is not a cult (obviously). But if the LOSs aren't cults, at least BWW in my experience, I don't know what is. Sure, people aren't physically poisoning themselves like the Jonestown cult members, but it's still a cult, in my opinion. At the very least, it operates like one. And the fact that that isn't as obvious as it was with the Waco and Jonestown folks makes it all the more insidious, in my opinion.
I remember after I quit feeling mortified that I had been part of a cult.
By the way, have you actually read Steve Hassan’s BITE model? Does BWW generally fit the description or not?
Most of my information came from this study, done in 2002 http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/bh_sbe03.pdf
It's not the most exciting of reads, but it does state, "The CBO (Characteristics of Business
Owners) represented a universe of about 17 million businesses." It's where the 17 million comes from.
From later on, "BITS (Business Information Tracking Series) shows that 66 percent of new employers survive two years or more, 50 percent survive four years or more, and 40 percent survive six years or more." I guess I was wrong. 40% survive more then 6 years, not 4!
For my purposes, I used the word success instead of survival, because to me, survival in business is a mark of success. But the ultimate definition of business success is profit. And definetily, any business that survives 6 years or more is profitable. Otherwise, it would no longer be in business.
So, there you have it. For the rest of the country, small businessmen have an incredibly higher 6 year success rate then IBO's have. Now, what does that say about IBO tool systems?
DMM: "But the ultimate definition of business success is profit. And definetily, any business that survives 6 years or more is profitable. Otherwise, it would no longer be in business."
B> Amazon? did you check on that? how bout you go look it up and see their profit in year 6. As for your statistic, i'll work on it, i think you are leaving some things out.
Joecool, you claim active, involved IBOs cook their books? Where is your proof? You choose Don, Bo, and Eric: ALL HAVE QUIT
Use of an superlative is easy to call out. Because out of 3 million IBOs world wide, EVERY ONE OF THEM cooks their books? You teaching the tin-foil hat making classes now?
DMM, to start, pay attention to this paragraph on page 5:
"Model 2 shows the factors that best explain the likelihood of survival are being an employer firm, having starting capital greater than $50,000,
having a college degree, and starting a business for personal reasons. Increased start-up capital and more education both give owners increased resources to develop a business. In addition, the correlation between starting capital greater than $50,000 and higher survival rates also reflect bankers’ decisions – evaluating intangibles and “picking winners” by financing businesses judged more likely to survive. It is believed that starting a business for personal reasons gives the owner increased motivation to keep a business going. So even if the business is barely staying afloat, better business opportunities are available, job offers arise, the owner who has started a business for personal reasons probably gains satisfaction from the lifestyle and does what it takes to keep the business open."
Guess what? Quixtar doesnt require: employees (being an employer), big investment, college degree.
The top two factors: Big investment (ie more to lose) and a reason why.
Tell me DMM, what are two parts of this business? Quixtar: a LOW ENTRY fee vehicle for business ownership (OOPS we got rid of a lot of risk that might keep people from thinking of leaving...)
and the training systems: harping on the reason WHY you are doing it. What is the purpose, motivation. Because without that, when you have a time of adversity in the business, which everyone will have, you have a reason to push through to reach whatever level of success you have. (O NO IM, it's a cult because they uplift you to dream... but this document, completely boring and unmotivating, says it is a key component?...)
Ok, DMM, thats a start.
I hope this proves to the passer-by's the futile attempts of rlauren and DMM to throw around numbers and completely ignore the pertanent variables clearly pointed out in the paper they quote and their attempt to mislead readers that quixtar the vehicle is the ONLY reason qstar businesses dont succeed.
source: http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/bh_sbe03.pdf
Brad, when I was in WWDB, they taught
at a major function, to charge yourself "full retail" and the difference between retail and wholesale, you put into your
business account along with your bonus checks, and that was your profit. Pretty much what R. Halling and a few others here described. In either case, thta profit still comes out of your own pocket and was not truly "profit" from outside customers like a real business.
A great example was made on the forum by "Judes" about starting your own housecleaning business and only cleaning your own house. Each time you clean, you put $200 into your business account. Business is great, but your bank account shrinks as a result. It is not a true profit.
I was in WWDB, but others even in your LOS (BWW I believe) have mentioned something similar to what I described.
Afterall, most LOSs are more alike than you would lead readers to believe
B> Amazon? did you check on that? how bout you go look it up and see their profit in year 6. As for your statistic, i'll work on it, i think you are leaving some things out.
CK> You're missing a key difference - Amazon is a corporation that pays SALARIES, which are deductible to it's bottom line. If I run a C-corp as the sole proprieter, I can 'pay myself a salary', have the corp issue me a w-2, equivalent to my net taxable income, thus showing 'no profit'.
Also, many corps that 'show' a loss actually have a)capital holdings that are part of E&P but not profit per se, and are b) often 'losing money' via tax-incentivized write-offs such as accelerated depriciation - a paper loss, but actually the opposite, since most real property does not depreciate.
Average IBO is just plain losing money.
Amazon also had a business plan and showed progress towards profitting. And they are today, a profitable business. Amazon was a little bit lucky, and little bit good to keep investor money while still not profitting. But many people understood the uniqueness of Amazon, and their potential, and stuck with them until they profitted. IBO's certainly aren't unique, and by Brad's own admission, most don't have what it takes to be a profitable business owner.
B> Amazon? did you check on that? how bout you go look it up and see their profit in year 6.
OMG, this already been refuted many times and still it shows up. Amazon pays good salary to its employees and owners. Not to mentioned HUGE capital gain. No wonder people questioned Quixtar's so-called training system.
Oh, and your 'two parts of business: a LOW ENTRY fee and the training systems'. Guess what, general public DON'T have those two. So, shouldn't their success rate be lower than an opportunity which require a fee and training system..??
No siree Bob! General public's success is at least SEVENTY TIMES better than your opportunity. And I miss 'pertanent variables'... right. You cannot even beat a common everyday folks doing common everyday stuff.
"CK> You're missing a key difference - Amazon is a corporation that pays SALARIES, which are deductible to it's bottom line. If I run a C-corp as the sole proprieter, I can 'pay myself a salary', have the corp issue me a w-2, equivalent to my net taxable income, thus showing 'no profit'."
and you fault IBOs for running low-net income businesses by finding ways to write-off gas, trips, vehicles, meals, etc?
and rlaurens, you did miss the point in there, the low entry fee shows that there is less risk thust he owner is more willing to give up. Go read it again.
Brad, you're the one that's misread my post:
There's NO entry fee to become part of the general public. Hence, based on your logic: "the low entry fee shows that there is less risk thust he owner is more willing to give up", the NO entry fee would make the member have ZERO risk and therefore EVEN MORE likely to give up.
Yet, as you know... 7% are millionaires.
Whatever happened to that dude coolbreeze?
Xanadustc,
I pretty sure this thread is not going to be checked... but I just wanted to thank you for your posts about the word faith movement and Quixtar's motivational tie in... It affected my church so negatively. I agree with what you said, and it was very well put. This is a very dangerous teaching, and it seems like it's just accepted as okay by so many people and in so many churches. It's very subtle, but it is still dangerous. Thanks again.
Take care and God bless,
Jeff
Jeff-
Sounds like you a heavily into church, let me ask you a question. How many people do you suppose leave your church after they start attending the church your at?
Is it because your church is evil that those people left?
Of those that don’t leave, how many do you suppose tithe the biblical 10% gross?
My point is some people quit everything and some people stick around in things without ever really putting into action the teaching they will claim to believe. This doesn’t make anyone evil or wrong really its just people.
Number of people that say they believe in God in the USA 80%, of those the number of people that tithe 10% gross is 3%.
Dear Sheep
We were involved with BWW, WWDB Amway/Quixtar whatever you want to disguise this scam to be and let me save you and all of readers some time and a lot of money. Bill Britt is a liar and a thief who gets caught cheating yet because he has so much money the company lets him do what he wants. They want you to spend hundreds of dollars on their "tools" that only makes them rich yet you can get the same info already available in the real world minus liars and thief's. 90+ % of Bill Britts and all of Amway/Quixtar upline's income comes from tools, that is a iron clad fact. They have been fined and fined again in almost every state for deceptive statements and practices and numerous lawsuits, including the one here in California that Quixtar settled out of court were filed.
Do a little research and you will find that I am accurate and please don't be a sheep.
First of all:
HE'S NOT TALKING TO YOU!
He's talking to a group of IBOs who voluntarily chose to attend whatever function that was taped at.
Critics try to assert that Quixtar "kingpins" twist the truth to manipulate others.
Unfortunately, I see too many posts that use quotes by speakers like John Crowe (An American Legend) out of context just to prove a point. Misrepresentation to say the least. Very similar to the Dateline "SPIN" masterpiece.
People are choosing voluntaringly to start their own business because they're not happy with some portion of their life. They are seeking new ideas and solutions to their problems.
Its too bad that so often, these people fall prey to misrepresentations, exagerations, and outright lies that some of the critics on this site spew from their forked tongues.
I am all for critics who offer legitimate concerns about the corporations and some of the questionable business practices of a Small Minority of business leaders. At least they "pretend" to offer solutions.
Posted by: CoolBreeze | August 2, 2006 7:12 PM