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July 1, 2006
Willing Participant
By Preston in A/QMOs
It can't be denied that thought reform is not part of some of the training programs used by different lines of affiliation. I know in WWDB there was something that was repeated many times on CDs and at the "night owls" - to be successful 'you must change the way you think.'
On the surface, it looks like a logical statement. Obviously, if you've got no business experience, one would expect a change to be required. The rub, however, is exactly what that change ends up being. One would expect being encouraged to read (books on how to run a business), attend training (on how to sell products for a product based business), and perhaps consult with others for tips on improving your business.
It is uncanny that these things are taught, but at some point, they get perverted. Reading from the "prescribed book list" seems to lead to books, which, reinforce the idea that learning from training "system" is good. Attending training seminars can end up being rah-rah stories of speakers telling people how they just followed the "system" and kept at it, never quitting. Finally, consulting with others on tips for improving your business may result in bad advice.
Normally, one might recognize bad advice. However, the "system" does a wonderful job at elevating certain upline pins as the "successes" - who, once successful, must know what they are talking about. How do we know this is true? Have you ever heard the line, "Would you learn (subject) from someone who had never done it?"
But in the end, the "System" gets off the hook - because in the beginning, you agreed - and were a willing participant to change the way you think. It wasn't what you expected, but what in life ever is? I personally believe that this is what leads to the feeling of guilt, and victimization. Was anything misrepresented, and does the responsibility lie with the "system" or Quixtar for letting this happen?
Comments
I hope you guys print my post because your comments are COMPLETELY out of line. Quixtar is a Franchise based business model. Not a Pyramid. How come you guys don't have a blog about how much money McDonalds Corp. is making of all the independant McDonalds business owners? I don't hear them complaining. Maybe its because the McDonalds IBO's are making more money off of their business than their "sponsor" (McDonalds Corp.) is. Just like the people who make money in this business (yes, I am one of them) aren't complaining about how much money our sponsors make. If they make more than me its for one of two reasons, sometimes both..#1-They've been building their business longer than I have and I just haven't caught them yet...but I will! (:. Or #2-They work harder than me. Both situations sound pretty fair and sensible to me. This business is a thousand times better than the job I used to work at, where for every $10 I made the company, my boss kept about $9 and I got the $1! No thanks..I'll take the $9, and the "boss" can have the $1, which is how this business works. Also, these "high pin level" IBO's you talk about were once new IBO's themselves, which proves that the business works IF a business owner puts in the effort. Also, the Quixtar business plan has a better record of its IBO's making profit than Ballys US Swim and Fitness does of its members losing weight. Why? Because most of Ballys' members don't show up to the gym to excersise on a regular basis. In fact, over 70% of their members show up less than once a week! Is that Bally's fault? No. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink This business works the same way. You only see results if you put in effort. This is not like most of your jobs where you get a paycheck every 2 weeks, whether you put in 100% effort or not...so if thats what your looking for..your right, this business would be a BIG waste of your time. And by the way, I tell ALL my business prospects that before I sponsor them.
These blogs have truly become flocking point for people who have a PHD in Non Accountablility For Their Actions and a source of venting for people who have dreams, but don't want to put in the work necessary to get achieve them.
I hope anyone who is "researching" this business reads this. If you do, please, don't listen to any of this crap. Do you have a loser, whiner, lazy person at your job?? The people complaining on here are just like that person.
Oh, one more point..one person said that IBO's are making money off of other IBO's by selling CD's...yes that is true. BUT! You have to be making at LEAST $100,000 a year in this business before they even ask you to record a CD, so...so what? I know people who recently went to see Donald Trump speak locally here to learn about how to succeed in business. They paid $195.00 to see him. They paid the money because he has proved he has something to teach them. Well, if someone in this business is making $100,000 a year, obviously they have something to teach as well...
By the way..do you complain about how much money the gas stations are making off of you when you need gas to get to work?? Aren't they "profiting" off of you to? Ohhhh..I bet you think "thats different" Uh huh..thought so....
Wait a second...do you actually have an issue with my post, or Quixtar blog in general?
...
your defensive rambling didn't make much sense to me.
R. Halling,
If you have some issues with us "critics" you do have some recourse. Over at my blog I have a standing challenge to all IBOs.
You can read about it here:
http://www.quixtarinsideout.com/?page_id=168
You come on here and try to tell those that are researching the business that they should listen to you, so I challenge you to come on over and tell them why they should.
So will you take the challenge or is your name just going to get added to the ever growing list of IBOs who abandoned their beliefs when challenged?
We were in the Florence organization for 3 years in the 90's. A big problem I saw with the tools business was the need to lie about it. The very first questions we asked after attending opens/netsems/ builder's meetings/functions was "Wow! This must be raking in a lot of money. Where does it go?"(the money the people pay to attend the function). We were told on numerous occasions that it only went to cover the expenses of the function (i.e. pay for the venue) and that was it! I also take issue with the encouragement that was presented repeatedly to sell anything of value(your TV, car, house)and/or go into debt to buy tools as that was the "key to success in the business". We in fact took out a personal loan to buy more tools (that we most definitely didn't need) and were praised for it.
Point being: Are you really so willing a participant if you were lied to in order to ellicit your participation?
henave
I too was in the Florence org. for about 6 years leaving about 3 years ago, and I agree totally with your last post. We were blatantly lied to. My story is one of financial devistation directly related to my involvement in Quixtar. After I got out I found out that many crossline IBOs had the same story of strained marriage and finances. Florence is super intelligent and could do the right thing but chooses the money instead in my opinion. I'll take my current situation anyday and sleep at night with a clear conscious to his and know that yes I'm a millionnaire, but how many people did I manipulate and use and lie to to get there.
Eric
I am VERY interested in how you could achieve "Financial Devestation" buying business tools from WWDB. The CD's are $2.50 each! The Diamond meetings are $7 each (maybe one a week) and the major funtions (1 or 2 a year) are only a few hundred dollars, sometimes less. People spend WAY more than that on a vacation!
What loan did you possibly take out?? Nothing is that expensive to require a LOAN!! Unless your a sweatshop worker in China!
Also, you shouldn't be investing $$ in tools until you have money coming in. Your upline should have lent you theirs. Thats how it works in our group. If this business was costing you money, than you weren't following the business plan. I have a family of 4 and we clear over $300.00 a month just off of our personal PV purchases, and difference between wholesale and retail. And we spend less money than we did when we went used to shop at Target (my husband is a horrible impulsive shopper, and he's so adorable, I'm powerless to stop him.)
I am on your site and I don't see any kind of challenge.
I really don't suggest taking me on, on this issue. I have toppled MANY an anti-Quixtar blogger. The "former" IBO's who whine all have the same story...and the same facts that they do not share...
#1. Q: How many times a day did you try to build your business?
A: Well..I didn't do it EVERY day..uhh uhhh
#2. Q: How many plans a week did you show?
A: Refer to question #1
#3. Q: How many product demos/price comp did you do every week?
A: Refer to question #1
#4. Q: How many people did you sponsor?
A: Refer to question #1
#5 Q: Did you use your own products?
A: Yes! Well, some of them..my wife didn't want to change mascaras, and I like Charmin toilet paper better....
#5. Q: Did you make yourself your first Client?
A: Huh?
#6. Q: (sigh) I'll rephrase the question. Did you charge yourself Retail price for your products, and deduct the Wholesale price, leaving the diff in your business account?
A: No
Hmmmmmmmm.....the reason why your business didn't work, is because you didn't work your business.
BTW..the "Try XS Energy Drink" ad on the quixtarinsideandout site is a blatent misuse of the WWDB my.biz site. WWDB members are not allowed to post "insider" website links to avoid having to give people a pass code. This business was designed to give everyone involved an even playing field.
Well, I read your challenge. ROTFLMAO And it was exactly what I suspected. I'm going to use an analogy here...please try to keep up.
I am a Christian. My hubby is studying Buddhism. He once asked me how I stay so positive about Christianity in the face of all the controversy (priests molesting kids, The Divinchi Code, etc)..And I told him, because none of that stuff has anything to do with God. That is Man twisting and manipulating God...no matter how much Man tries to twist, or ruin God, He is still the same God that was here long before Man tried to ruin him.
Like I said. I read your challenge. I saw nothing in there of discrediting the Quixtar Business Plan. Your complaining about CD's!!! Thats like saying you don't believe that you can make money selling Real Estate just because you didn't like a book a specific author wrote about making money selling real estate.
The business plan works. If you follow it you will make money. Whether or not you want to purchase the CD's, etc is up to you. I can personally say that my business grew much faster w/the CD's, than w/out them.
Do you know why you have a boss at work? To make sure you keep working!! These CD's are like a "boss", except, they don't suck like your boss does. (: They help you keep working! I've gotten all my prospecting help from those CD's..those that have gone before me and made the mistakes so I don't have to make them. Could I build this business without them? Yes, obviously..because the first Diamond didn't have them. But it would take A LOT longer, and I would fall on my face a lot more.
Look at it as traveling from California to New York...you could drive..which would "cost" you less money. Or you could pay a little money and fly.
I'll pay the $2.50 each week the CD's cost me and fly to my destination. But if someone wants to drive..I guess thats ok to.
Your challenge....is a joke...and it should be removed from ANY Quixtar Blog because the "System" you are complaining about is WWDB, not Quixtar.
Then what do you have to lose? You can save face by going on his podcast and arguing your business.
Stating this just as fact of the LOS(Florence-Diamond, Gurubel-Emerald) we were in during the 90's, not as a representation of all organizations.
We were encouraged to have at a minimum of a "trunkful" of tools as well as full supply at home. This included adpacks, bluebags (both tools used to STP in our LOS); multiple (10 or more) copies of books, tapes (no CD's then), Profiles of Success, etc. We were given lists of pages and pages books and tapes we should have in inventory (never mind that we had no group!) We were to hand these out liberally to prospects. We were making no money in the business and it was unheard of for upline to give you tools(in this amount). The theory was that the dedicated would find a way to buy tools and prove that they were "hungry" for the business and thus earn upline's attention. This is what the personal loan went for. A personal loan can be taken from your bank and paid back over time. Going into debt to build your business was the mark of a devoted builder. We lost $12,000 the last year we were in.
We showed the plan several times a week at a minimum for a good part of our time in the business; consistently purchased from ourselves; drove out of state if necessary to cold contact; contacted people locally almost daily. We attended all major functions for our Diamond and Crown (Yager); builder's meetings; netsems; nightowls; open meetings; dreambuilding with our direct; Artistry weekends for ladies; ALL the meetings-after-the-meetings and not to be forgotten the satellite broadcasts (this was the 90's and someone in our group has sprung for a satellite sold through the business to broadcast Amway speakers, etc.)
Any money saving tactics were taught only as a way to save money to invest in tools which were lauded as the key to success. Yager's Internet tool business was promoted as a "service" he provided to us.
These were our experinces only. Hope yours have been better.
Henave,
I'm very sorry to hear about your experience.
I believe that the FTC should audit EVERY LOS & have a standard set of procedures & disclosures that each follows.
We're part of WWDB. We LOVE it! We have seen tremendous focus on PRODUCTS for the past two years. We've been involved for 3 years. At every single function, meeting, etc., they've introduced product related programs such as TECIBO - Ten Edibles Clients & IBO(yourself), Incredible Edibles, Ditto Delivery, the 10-10-10 program, EACH ONE FOCUSING ON PROSPECTING & SERVING RETAIL CLIENTS. We use the Gift & Incentive program to reward our biggest customers. It has been very valuable & profitable for our business.
By the way, we've never personally, experienced a "night owl", a netsem(?) or an AMWAY broadcast.
The philosophy of WWDB in the past few years has been to lessen the amount of meetings, shorten the time it takes to STP, streamline the process (internet & conference calls) to avoid the time & money to show long distance plans.
There are meetings nationwide to send 'out of staters' to. Qualify over the phone & online first. Heavily. Or, if an upline is travelling, have them STP for you!
I am sure you worked very very hard. It sounds like you did what you were told. Unfortunately, what you were told, was a result of very poor leadership. You got "burnt out". I probably would have too! Or divorced!
As I said in the beginning, there should be ONE set of standards, procedures & disclosures for all of the LOS's. I pray the FTC passes the ruling. In the meantime, we will work this with integrity & honesty.
I wish you all the best,
SalLY
SalLY,
Good luck with your business, sounds like a good plan with the emphasis on products, shorter meetings and STP time. Full disclosure and universal standards would be a vast improvement as well.
I never had a problem w/ the idea of tools or motivational materials- I rather enjoyed handing someone a tape and letting Billy Florence speak to them for me. Our obejection was with the dishonesty surrounding the tool income and the emphasis on purchasing vast quantities of tools. Unfortunately, this began to overshadow everything else for us personally.
A netsem stood for network seminar. It was a rather more in-depth open. The satellite broadcasts did not take off if I remember correctly! The group would gather and watch leaders speak on generic business issues (like on a tape) , nothing that would interfere w/ LOS. It was hard to place the satellite so that you could pick up the signal and they were rather large and bulky-- programming was irregular.
Best wishes,will follow to see outcome of the FTC ruling.
Henave
R Halling,
WOW! I don't think I have ever seen more rambling and self-justification by one IBO is such little time. Your self-righteous attitude and elitist tone says volumes about how much you must hold your nose up at others.
You assume my answers before you even ask the questions. Is this what they teach you in Quixtar? To make up the facts before you actually ask?
You apparently have not read my blog or done your homework and have fallen in with the rest of IBOs who visit my site and get ahead of themselves. My position on Quixtar the company is that the plan is a good, low-cost way for the average joe to make some extra money. My only problem with them is that they have not done enough (yet) to combat the abuse by the systems. Now if you believe that the system is wonderful and that it is crucial part of building a business and that if you are not on SOT, Book of the month, going to all meetings, functions, etc your business will fail then this challenge is for you. Because it is my contention that the system is abusive and not needed for IBOs to make money.
Now if my challenge makes you laugh and is a joke then you should have no problem and this should be easy as pie for you. Instead however you come back here and type insults and ramble on without knowing any facts upfront, which speaks to your character.
Everyone who reads this take notice that I did not recieve one e-mail from R Halling to ask how this is going to work, or to even accept. Just more rambling as all the others who have their names crossed out have done in the past.
By the way R. Halling how hard could it have been to find the challenge. All you had to do was take the web address from my post and copy it into your browser and it would have taken you right to it. Sheesh!
We are proud IBO's with Quixtar but found ourselves struggling with the training and motivation provided through BWW. Now, we are members of the LTD system and it doesn't appear to be much different.
We do not participate in the hype
"buy all this stuff" training and motivation options provided by our upline. People in learn in different ways - some watch a movie, others read a book. The system recommended was not within our alignment of how we wanted to run our business.
You must keep in mind that an IBO can take advantage of the full MLM opportunity with Quixtar without purchasing a single motivational and training thing. It took us a long time to sift this out as the two entities were presented to us together. But the fact is they are totally and completely seperate.
Check out my URL if you are wanting to know of an alternative no-hype motivation and training alternative.
Henave,
I'm sorry for what I said about your financial situation. I had no idea you had an upline who had you "stockpile" business tools.
Based on what you've said about how hard you worked, I would have been proud to have you in my organization.
I'm very sorry you had such a bad experience with such a great business.
Drew,
I understand your desire to make Quixtar more "accountable" for lying uplines. And they will pull memberships for unethical IBO's. I have kicked 2 ppl out of my business in the last year.
I used to work for the phone company. We had a HORRIBLE problem w/ppl lying to customers to get sales. This was a reputable company that hired a whole TEAM of people to combat the problem, the FCC used to listen to our calls regularly, and it still went on!!! Is the company bad? Is the FCC to blame? NO! The person lying is to blame!
Drew, there are bad people in EVERY business, and at EVERY job. And no matter how hard you try, they will still "have their way". Businesses and jobs are ALWAYS on the defensive with these issues, because they can't "act" until there has been a violation.
You bloggers going on and on about how awful Quixtar is, is no better than the unethical IBO's who created the problem in the first place...because you are not addressing the problem.
You would have MUCH more credibility, and help a lot more people if you talked about what the rules actually are, instead of complaining about the IBO's that don't follow them.
I know if I was researching WWDB and I read your posts, I would call you a whiner. But if you talked about how the business tools are optional, and the LEGITIMATE pro's and con's of them, you would make more sense. It would also be nice if you mentioned that the biz tools shouldn't cost you out of pocket money, they should be paid for by your business profits, and you should explain how to make that happen. THAT would be helping people to.
gotho,
Drew doesn't want to argue my "Business", he wants to argue whether or not the CD's and meetings from WWDB actually work. And to be honest, their isn't a whole lot I can do to prove that they worked for me. I went on PM the second month after I started my business, so the growth has always been there.
How am i supposed to prove that Tom Gonsors Amazon invite is what made me more comfortable prospecting? How am I supposed to prove that one of the CD's I gave to my younger brother inspired him to start building this business? He could tell you, but would you choose to believe him anymore than you believe me?
I have learned something from every CD I have gotten, and I learned something at every meeting I've gone to. Sometimes it's business related, sometimes its personal. But personal growth is an important key to building my business (ability to relate to others). Sometimes I hear what I needed to hear to kick myself in the ass if I hit a lazy streak. How can I prove that after I listen to a Bill Hawkins CD I want to put in a 12 hour day of prospecting (and have)?
I'm saying his challenge is B.S. because I can't PROVE that it helped my business grow. It's just something I know.
R. Halling,
Pretty easy to determine how well the tools works. 2-5 years, where are all the new diamonds in quixtar?
Was there like 1 new diamond (Dussault?) that was quixtar only since 1999?
That says a lot in itself.
Well you are assuming what the questions are going to be about. Debating your claims of what tools did for your business has nothing to do with the challenge. Why is it that IBOs always pre-judge what critics are going to challenge them on, and then get mad because they think their business is being pre-judged?
As far as what I blog about, I don't care about the whole name-calling routine that IBOs go through. If I did I wouldn't be doing this. The mere fact that many people (including myself) have come to sites like these and learned the truth that their uplines would not tell them speaks for itself.
Quixtar does not have just a few bad apples in it. It is a fricken orchard full. Now the majority of IBOs are hard working and good people but when it comes to this business they have been convinced that these unethical type business practices are what they need to succeed, therefore passing down one bad apples infection to the rest of the orchard.
The Quixtar corporation is not given a free pass in my book. They have not done near enough to stop the abuse. The same type of abuses Rich DeVos talked about on Directly Speaking tapes is still rampant in today's Quixtar.
As far as credibility is concerned the mere fact that we are not the ones launching Web Initiatives designed to drown out the other side speaks heavily to our credibility.
The mere fact that Quixtar themselves and many of the motivational organization leaders have done and are doing such unethical activities as Web Initiatives says we must be more then just a bunch of whiners and again speaks volumes to our credibility.
If your not going to challenge whether or not "The System" (as you guys call it) works...than what else is there to discuss? Nobody in my group pays for business tools out of their "job" money. I lend them tools until their business creates enough profit to pay for their own, if they choose to use them. So if you don't want to talk about if it works, and you don't want to talk about how much it costs... what do you want to debate? And if you were upfront about what you wanted to talk about..maybe people wouldn't have to guess, or "prejudge" as you call it. Why do we have to go on a "podcast" (I don't even know what that is, so it is nothing I am "afraid of")..why can't we do it right here? I'd rather do it here where potential prospects can see it.
As for Quixtars "orchard" of bad apples..I believe they would weed more of them out if they recieved REAL complaints about IBO's lying, etc..most people who feel they were "scammed" by an IBO never notify Quixtar (I know, I have asked them, and some lie and say they did, but I can prove they didn't because they were unfamiluar w/the "ethics" procedure). Quixtar will investigate claims. Usually they send a "mole" to one of the accused IBO's meetings. I can say that they gave me no problems when I requested that 2 of the people in my group have their business rights revoked. However, one of my Upline wasn't too thrilled about it because he wanted the PV to try and qualify to go to "The River" that year (a WWDB event). I notified Quixtar of my Uplines disapproval, and why he disapproved (they do keep records of complaints) and I choose not to have any business contact w/him anymore.
Joecool18,
Where are all the Diamonds? Maybe this will answer your question...
Why does college have a 60% dropout rate if thats the "ticket" to a successful future?
Why did the sales job I used to work have an 87% turnover rate? I had no problem staying in the top 2% of sales in the company.
Why do 93% of people who go on diets (any diet) fail?
Why does marriage have a 40% divorce rate?
I hope that answers your question. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..well, maybe Jack Bauer could.
R. Halling>Where are all the Diamonds? Maybe this will answer your question...
Why does college have a 60% dropout rate if thats the "ticket" to a successful future?
Joe> Please prove that. Even if it's true, it's better than the 1 in 200 taht go direct (.05%) or on in fourteen thousand that go diamond isn't it?
R. Halling> Why did the sales job I used to work have an 87% turnover rate? I had no problem staying in the top 2% of sales in the company.
Joe> Good for you. Why did the rest drop out?
R. Halling> Why do 93% of people who go on diets (any diet) fail?
Joe> Why do over 99% of Quixtar IBOs lose money? Why do people who try hard still fail?
R. Halling> Why does marriage have a 40% divorce rate?
Joe> What does that have to do with quixtar?
Thanks for nothing, you still didn't answer why there are no diamonds, you just asked me a bunch of questions.
Think about everything you have heard on tapes/CD's and functions, read in books, etc. Now imagine the tools were sold at cost rather than the ridiculous markup which creates huge net losses for most IBO's and huge net profits (especially when compared to their product volume profit), and whether your position on this information would change.
Joecool18,
R. Halling>Where are all the Diamonds? Maybe this will answer your question...
Why does college have a 60% dropout rate if thats the "ticket" to a successful future?
Joe> Please prove that. Even if it's true, it's better than the 1 in 200 taht go direct (.05%) or on in fourteen thousand that go diamond isn't it?
Renee> It's a fact. Find the proof yourself. You can start with the University of Minnesota. And if college cost $117 a year instead of $10,000 it would probably have a 99% dropout rate. The answer is because people quit. Just like they quit in this business.
R. Halling> Why did the sales job I used to work have an 87% turnover rate? I had no problem staying in the top 2% of sales in the company.
Joe> Good for you. Why did the rest drop out?
Renee> They quit. They quit because they didn't want to follow the sales model that was proven to help people w/out natural sales talent succeed. That was a proven fact because I was put on a team of reps who listened to struggling reps phone calls to try and help them. I listened to their calls. 100% of them didn't follow the model. They didn't want to do the work. Just like most of the people who fail in this business. In the end, they got frustrated w/their own failure and they quit. Just like people quit in this business.
R. Halling> Why do 93% of people who go on diets (any diet) fail?
Joe> Why do over 99% of Quixtar IBOs lose money? Why do people who try hard still fail?
Renee> 93% of people on diets fail because they quit dieting. Just like most of the people in this business quit. And no one who uses the tools in my group is losing money...I must be one of the lucky 1%..wow..I was one of the "lucky" 2% at my last job..am I really just lucky..or maybe I just know what I am doing.
R. Halling> Why does marriage have a 40% divorce rate?
Joe> What does that have to do with quixtar?
Renee> The answer is because one person in the marriage quits. Just like in this business. See Joe, I was going with a theme here. If you failed in this business, I am starting to see why.
Joe>Thanks for nothing, you still didn't answer why there are no diamonds, you just asked me a bunch of questions.
Renee> No, I tried to help you answer your own question. You just weren't listening. (: But if you haven't gotten it thus far, it is for 2 reasons. #1. They don't do the work. #2. They quit.
I know 100 small business owners who had great businesses that went under because of mismanaged finances..that is another reason why people quit. They don't handle their business expenses properly.
"Think about everything you have heard on tapes/CD's and functions, read in books, etc. Now imagine the tools were sold at cost rather than the ridiculous markup which creates huge net losses for most IBO's and huge net profits (especially when compared to their product volume profit), and whether your position on this information would change."
Thank you for proving a great point for me. People spend money on what they want to spend money on, and its amazing what they consider "valuable". Allow me to explain...
Ridiculous mark up on CD's??:
I paid $13.00 for the last music CD I bought. Eminem didn't teach me anything about making money. How's that for ridiculous markup? You think it cost them any less to produce that CD? How much did you spend on the last CD you bought?
I paid $7.00 to go to a meeting last month so 3 of my prospects could listen to Bill Hawkins speak.
I paid $9.00 to go see the DaVinci Code on Saturday. Tom Hanks didn't say anything to my prospects.
My husband and I paid $1000 to go to Family Reunion last year in Arizona. It is true what they say..major decisons are made at major functions. Since then my husband (then my boyfriend) has completley supported my decision to build this business. And we both got a nice tan.
We paid $2400 to go to Jamaica last year. All we got was a tan. (: I didn't meet any people who taught me to build my business, or inspire me to be a better business partner to my associates..in fact most of the people in Jamaica just wanted us to buy prostitutes and get high. ):
I don't have any problem w/the successful people in this business making money off of a CD they recorded, or a function they spoke at..anymore than I fault Donald Trump for holding a seminar here a few weeks ago on how to make money in real estate..he charged $195.00 a person! If you don't approve, don't participate. There is a legal disclaimer at the end of each CD that says the purchase of it is optional...
iamquixtar,
Imagine plugging into ALL the training and motivation for a set price each month and learn the truth about Network Marketing and what it takes to be successful. A system that provides the training and motivation, even has a forum like this one to get answers to questions about NWM. Then imagine you profiting from plugging your downline into the same system. It is real and it's called leadersclub. Leadersclub is "non denominational" so to speak. It is not specific to any MLM company. It's mission is to change the industry.the "hype" and gives you solid information on how to build a network marketing business. Leadersclub is itself a MLM company. Think about it. All the profit from Training and Motivation dose'nt go to one person. Leadersclub is a source for your training and motivation and you can plug your downline into the same information and earn a secondary income in the process.
stop imagining and see for yourself.
leadersclub.com/31152
If anyone is interested here is a webpage about leadersclub.
http://leadersclub.com/31152/html/about_us.asp
"iamquixtar,
Imagine plugging into ALL the training and motivation for a set price each month and learn the truth about Network Marketing and what it takes to be successful. A system that provides the training and motivation, even has a forum like this one to get answers to questions about NWM. Then imagine you profiting from plugging your downline into the same system. It is real and it's called leadersclub. Leadersclub is "non denominational" so to speak. It is not specific to any MLM company. It's mission is to change the industry.the "hype" and gives you solid information on how to build a network marketing business. Leadersclub is itself a MLM company. Think about it. All the profit from Training and Motivation dose'nt go to one person. Leadersclub is a source for your training and motivation and you can plug your downline into the same information and earn a secondary income in the process.
stop imagining and see for yourself.
leadersclub.com/31152"
What your saying may very well be true, however I have created more profit in my business by being on S.O.T and attending the monthly meetings than I would have w/out. I know this for a fact. I can't speak for everyone else, only myself. It has also never cost me out of pocket money to purchase my CD's from WWDB.
Therefore, I really don't care if WWDB is a MLM..guess what else is a MLM? Partylite. But you know what? They make awesome candles that smell good...so I buy them.
R Halling you can't profit from being on SOT, or going to meetings unless you are a platinum. You may think that you are making a profit from those things, but it's simply not true. BWW, LTD, and WWDB are scams. They play with your emotions and make you feel like you can't do anything with out them. If they were Multilevel marketing businesses then it would be fair for all involved.
What is your reason for being on this blog? Did you check upline to see if it was okay to come on this blog?
"R Halling you can't profit from being on SOT, or going to meetings unless you are a platinum. You may think that you are making a profit from those things, but it's simply not true. BWW, LTD, and WWDB are scams. They play with your emotions and make you feel like you can't do anything with out them. If they were Multilevel marketing businesses then it would be fair for all involved.
What is your reason for being on this blog? Did you check upline to see if it was okay to come on this blog"
What on earth are you talking about? I never said I created more profit OFF of S.O.T. I said MY business has grown stronger since I have been ON S.O.T...and I have already listed the reasons why.
I'm really not too worried what my upline thinks of me being on this blog. They are my business partners. This blog is personal.
R. Halling,
You left out the main reason why people don't succeed in the business. The system does not work. Too many people need to fail for a few to win. People become aware of the scam so they quit or drop out. It's not for lack of effort. Someone dieting who quits may still have lost some weight.
In quixtar it's all or nothing. Anyway you slice it, there will always be more people losing than gaining. It's the way the system is designed.
R. Halling posted: "I have created more profit in my business by being on S.O.T and attending the monthly meetings than I would have w/out."
Sorry, I took your post as meaning something else. That you have profited from the SOT and WWDB system. You have obviously profited by taking ACTION in your business. Are you saying that you could not build your business without WWDB?
As to the why I was refering to, What is your purpose for being on this blog?. You seem to have a personal vendetta of some kind.
You posted:
"I hope you guys print my post because your comments are COMPLETELY out of line. Quixtar is a Franchise based business model. Not a Pyramid"
miss halling, I would say your comments are out of line. I don't see anywhere in this post anyone called Quixtar a pyramid, and I think people here have some valid points and concerns about what these training and motivational organizations are doing. Quixtar is not a pyramid, but there are problems. Quixtar is getting a bad name just like Amway and it's because of the Training and motivational organizations they make you feel like you can't build a business without them. They are making lots of money of people. If Quixtar is the best business and the WWDB or BWW etc... is proven successful system, then why would someone who is pulling in 100K need to make money off of other IBO's for there training and motivation. If those profits were set up just like the Quixtar profit schedule then not only would it be fair, but it would'nt be a scam.
and
"Do you have a loser, whiner, lazy person at your job?? The people complaining on here are just like that person."
Lazy? Hmmmm.. It looks like there are lots people putting a lot of effort into posting on blogs, building websites, writting books etc... That is hardly lazy.
Your training has given you the ability to come here and attack people for their experiences with this organization.
There have been abuses and abuse is still going on that is obvious.
I will ask you again, What is your purpose for being on this blog?
one more thing,
You posted about my post:
"Therefore, I really don't care if WWDB is a MLM..guess what else is a MLM? Partylite. But you know what? They make awesome candles that smell good...so I buy them."
First of all I was not addressing you in this post. My posting was directed towards "iamquixtar"
Second, WWDB is not a multi level marketing business and I never said it was. all the profit goes to one person.
Maybe R. Halling can state a couple of nuggets of wisdom that was taught at one of the functions that helps to build a profitable quixtar business?
R. Halling (Renee),
You go girl! You Rock! :-)
I'm also downline from Hawkins & Harstad. I agree with 99% of what you say. The 1% I don't agree with is the tendancy to want to "crush" the false and misleading comments with emotional responses. We have to watch that.
I have noticed something. Renee, you seem to have legitimate data to backup your statements. Most of the critbots don't seem to backup their comments with anything substantial. They just point to other postings on other sites or opinions from other ex-IBO's.
I also notice a LOT of repetitive information. The accusations about the Kingpins making all the money and the accusation (from Joecool) about the fact that somebody is always losing. Lots of other accusations that get repeated over and over and over and over and over and over, on this site and other anti-quix sites. I think you get the picture.
I especially want to let you know I agree wholeheartely about why there aren't a bunch of new diamonds since 1999. I would bet you that the number of IBO's who have been HARD CORE, NON-STOP, DAY AFTER DAY & HAVE FOLLOWED ALL OF THE AWESOME TEACHINGS, would MATCH the number of NEW DIAMONDS since 1999. In other words, these IBO's are a RARE breed! Most people quit (or sign up & don't even get started!) for whatever reasons. They slow down. They let life's obstacles get in their way. They use them as excuses instead of reasons. I know. I've done some of that. We slowed down. But we haven't quit! NO WAY!!! I KNOW from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that this business is legitimate & it works!
It's also a LOT of fun! :-)
Drew, Renee has come up with some great suggestions for guidelines for this blog site. Why not entertain them?
Thanks for listening.
Sally
Sally,
First of all this is Qblog's blog. Any suggestions made to me don't get too far since I only write here I don't make any decisions about the direction of this blog.
Second, Renee has not provided anything of substance here but her own view. For some reason all IBOs like to see that as facts, and "legitimate data". My bet however is that you did not look into her claims one bit.
If you are going to be critical of where we are not backing up our claims then why don't you ever point them out to us? We point out to you everything we don't find substantial facts for your business, but the best you guys come here with is simple-minded blanket statements. One can only conclude that you can't find anything and this is why you need your blanket statments.
R. Halling,
A podcast is like a radio program except it is not live. Both myself and Qblog produce one. Prospects who come to these sites listen to them quite often.
First of all it is better because much more information can be discussed in one program. Second, it is a real-time forum which means the fluff that usually ends up in written posts is eliminated and therefore the points are addressed much quicker. These happen to be a couple of reasons that prospects would like to hear IBOs on the podcasts.
The challenge is laid out on my blog in a very simple format. There is no reason for any IBO to not participate if you want your side to be heard. You are either up to it or not it is really that simple.
Sally you posted "I also notice a LOT of repetitive information. "
Have you noticed any repetative information in your training and motivation? Is that a problem? I think it's a problem if you continue to pay for the same information expecting different results. That's close to the definition of insanity.
Sally,
I did not make an "accusation" that someone is always losing. It is a mathematical fact! Here's a great analysis: http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/resources/negsumgame2.html
Do you know why some of these themes seem to be repeated? Because NOT ONE SINGLE IBO HAS BEEN ABLE TO PROVE OTHERWISE!
For every Diamond, you need a minimum of six platinums. For every platinum, you need 7500 PV. Unless the direct does 7500 PV by himself, he needs downline. Many downline are doing 100 PV, maybe more maybe less. These IBOs may get back $8, maybe $17. Yes, some are lazy, some do the business half heartedly, but the one indisputable fact is if they are on the teaching system, THEY ARE LOSING MONEY!
Yuo can say they are working their way up, or whatever, but come tax time their schedule C reports a LOSS.
Prove me wrong if you can. Then the repetition will stop.
Papa,
What is YOUR purpose on this site??? To promote your own MLM Motivational business? I checked out your website. I thought you had credibility until I read a couple of your posts. You must be just another bitter, ex-IBO and now you want to "compete" with the Quixtar MO's. And, advertising on this site? C'mon, man. You can be more professional than that, can't you?
Drew,
Sorry I mixed you up with QBlog. Please forgive me. Here are some previous posts that lead me to believe Renee more than the critics (represented by Joecool). Joe's responses tend to sound like: "oh..yeah?....well...you're ugly!" You know, like a kid who can't think of an intelligent response and spits out the first non-sensical thing that comes to mind.
Here you go, Drew...some examples:
"Joecool18,
R. Halling>Where are all the Diamonds? Maybe this will answer your question...
Why does college have a 60% dropout rate if thats the "ticket" to a successful future?
Joe> Please prove that. Even if it's true, it's better than the 1 in 200 taht go direct (.05%) or on in fourteen thousand that go diamond isn't it?
Renee> It's a fact. Find the proof yourself. You can start with the University of Minnesota. And if college cost $117 a year instead of $10,000 it would probably have a 99% dropout rate. The answer is because people quit. Just like they quit in this business.
R. Halling> Why did the sales job I used to work have an 87% turnover rate? I had no problem staying in the top 2% of sales in the company.
Joe> Good for you. Why did the rest drop out?
Renee> They quit. They quit because they didn't want to follow the sales model that was proven to help people w/out natural sales talent succeed. That was a proven fact because I was put on a team of reps who listened to struggling reps phone calls to try and help them. I listened to their calls. 100% of them didn't follow the model. They didn't want to do the work. Just like most of the people who fail in this business. In the end, they got frustrated w/their own failure and they quit. Just like people quit in this business.
R. Halling> Why do 93% of people who go on diets (any diet) fail?
Joe> Why do over 99% of Quixtar IBOs lose money? Why do people who try hard still fail?
Renee> 93% of people on diets fail because they quit dieting. Just like most of the people in this business quit. And no one who uses the tools in my group is losing money...I must be one of the lucky 1%..wow..I was one of the "lucky" 2% at my last job..am I really just lucky..or maybe I just know what I am doing.
R. Halling> Why does marriage have a 40% divorce rate?
Joe> What does that have to do with quixtar?
Renee> The answer is because one person in the marriage quits. Just like in this business. See Joe, I was going with a theme here. If you failed in this business, I am starting to see why.
Joe>Thanks for nothing, you still didn't answer why there are no diamonds, you just asked me a bunch of questions.
Renee> No, I tried to help you answer your own question. You just weren't listening. (: But if you haven't gotten it thus far, it is for 2 reasons. #1. They don't do the work. #2. They quit.
I know 100 small business owners who had great businesses that went under because of mismanaged finances..that is another reason why people quit. They don't handle their business expenses properly."
And...
"Ridiculous mark up on CD's??:
I paid $13.00 for the last music CD I bought. Eminem didn't teach me anything about making money. How's that for ridiculous markup? You think it cost them any less to produce that CD? How much did you spend on the last CD you bought?
I paid $7.00 to go to a meeting last month so 3 of my prospects could listen to Bill Hawkins speak.
I paid $9.00 to go see the DaVinci Code on Saturday. Tom Hanks didn't say anything to my prospects.
My husband and I paid $1000 to go to Family Reunion last year in Arizona. It is true what they say..major decisons are made at major functions. Since then my husband (then my boyfriend) has completley supported my decision to build this business. And we both got a nice tan.
We paid $2400 to go to Jamaica last year. All we got was a tan. (: I didn't meet any people who taught me to build my business, or inspire me to be a better business partner to my associates..in fact most of the people in Jamaica just wanted us to buy prostitutes and get high. ):
I don't have any problem w/the successful people in this business making money off of a CD they recorded, or a function they spoke at..anymore than I fault Donald Trump for holding a seminar here a few weeks ago on how to make money in real estate..he charged $195.00 a person! If you don't approve, don't participate. There is a legal disclaimer at the end of each CD that says the purchase of it is optional... "
Renee's examples are clear, real-life, specific examples. I thought she did a great job.
Hope that helps clarify things for you!
Sally
Bottom line: YES. The higher PINs make money on the tools. YES, they are OPTIONAL. Do they work? THAT, my friend, is in the eye of the beholder.
Sally,
Thanks for your support! And yes I know I did come out of the gate blasting..and I'm sorry for that. Pent up anger at whiners is a SOB to deal with.
Drew,
If your worried about other posters "fluff" interfering w/our debate..create a topic just for you and I and we will go at it. The reason why I would rather do it that way? The same reason as why I am here in the first place..to make sure BOTH sides of the story get exposed to prospects who research this site for "info" on this business.
To whomever said I was wrong for comparing the majority of the complainers on this site to lazy, whiners at your job: You say they cant be lazy because their here fighting for their cause and writing books...well hear this! Typing on a computer is a lot easier than than sticking your neck out on the line by talking to a stranger about this business...AKA-prospecting! I would know because I do both..unlike most of the people who are whining in this blog. By lazy, I meant about building their business, not other areas of their life. I have a guy in my group that runs 5 miles a day..but he has yet to bring one person he doesn't know to a meeting. Again...When I say lazy..I meant about this business.
When I say whining, I mean about their inability to admit that THEY didn't have what it takes to succeed in this business. Instead of admitting it, they cry about how they were "wronged"..and the "system" didn't work. BTW... The "system" you speak of, is like a treadmill..it only works if you turn it on.
I want to propose a question to all of you w/beef for WWDB, BWW, etc....if they think the real problem is these "systems", not the Quixtar plan itself..Why didn't you just quit the "system", and build the business w/out it???
FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT WERE LIED TO:
I can say that I have met a few ppl on this blog who have a legitimate reason to be upset. They WERE lied to by their upline..HOWEVER..after being here for awhile, and listening to the posts of IBO's who HAVENT been lied to, and in turn DON'T lie to their groups...AKA, ARE BUILDING THE BUSINESS ETHICLY, they should have learned by now that the way their upline was conducting business was WRONG. And they shouldn't keep holding the entire "system" or worse, Quixtar itself accountable for that FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE!! For Gods sakes! Has any employee at your job ever lied to, or mistreated another employee/customer? The answer to that is YES. Do you want the whole world to HATE the place you work...and you because of it? I hope not!
Did you ever have a man/woman who treated you badly while you were dating? Did that make you quit dating or become some man/woman hater? This situation is no different. I personally have met a lot more dishonest men dating than dishonest upline in this business..Should I hold the entire male population accountable for the wrongs a few jerks did to me?
No. Of couse not.
So please stop holding my ENTIRE business/system accountable for what happened to you.
And again..to those who believe the system isn't necessary, and ask could I build it alone..the answer is YES, I could build it alone. If I did build it alone would it be cheaper for me? No it wouldn't..it wouldn't be cheaper because I would be making the SERIOUS mistakes I only learned to avoid by listening to the CD's and reading the books recommended by WWDB. Those mistakes would have seriously stunted the growth of my business. I know this because there are people in my group who are trying to go at it on their own...they are making those mistakes that I avoided, and are repeatedly falling on their faces, and it is reflected in their business growth.
As for "All the money going to one person" in WWDB..well, all the money I spent on fireworks last weekend went to "one person" as well..did that stop me from buying them? Or you??? No. I bought them for entertainment..to me it was money well spent. But the fireworks only entertained me after I put them to use (aka, lighted the fuse)..these business tools funtion the same way..they only work if you put them to use. And if you put what you learn to use, it will be money well spent.
Joecool> For every Diamond, you need a minimum of six platinums. For every platinum, you need 7500 PV. Unless the direct does 7500 PV by himself, he needs downline. Many downline are doing 100 PV, maybe more maybe less. These IBOs may get back $8, maybe $17. Yes, some are lazy, some do the business half heartedly, but the one indisputable fact is if they are on the teaching system, THEY ARE LOSING MONEY!
Yuo can say they are working their way up, or whatever, but come tax time their schedule C reports a LOSS.
Sally> I realize this. I don't have a problem with that. If they are CORE and desire to build this as their own business (for whatever reasons) then there will POSSIBLY be a loss for a short amount of time, like any other business! It depends on how and how much they work it.
For example, if they sell (at retail) 10 cases of XS, 10 boxes of Double X & 10 boxes of Variety Meal Replacement Bars their first month , then their PROFIT from that would be $370.49 PLUS their $8.00 (conservatively) or so, from doing their 100PV (as you indicated).
Subtract from that, the COST of being 100% CORE which would be approx. $111.95 (this includes PM, SOT, Book, TWO paid meetings and Kate). This is not realistic but, you want to play this way, so I will too. This leaves a PROFIT in the first month of $266.54!!!
Now, you might say it's unrealistic to sell that much retail in one month. Nonsense! I have offered my personal assistance, my marketing tools, my time, my product (samples) in order to help them to do this. 95% of them MAKE EXCUSES and have not taken me up on this offer!
What do you think about that, Joe?
Anyway, it essentially does not cost the new IBO anything to do this! The products are THAT good...with some samples & some factual data, they sell themselves!
That's just one example, Joe. If you consume 3 of the "edibles" a day & teach 10 others to do the same, then the numbers add up to approx. 702PV in the month, which equates to a bonus check of approx. $150-200.00. Subtract approx. $80.00 for downline checks (IF they're at 100PV each) and you have $70.00 left over. Now, you'll notice that you're at a LOSS of approx. $40.00, after the cost of business. HOWEVER, this is for the FIRST month only. IF they are willing to do this BARE MINIMUM, then they will start making a PROFIT the 2nd month. Pretty simple, eh?
Now, an IBO can CHOOSE to do all of the above and NOT be on the system. They can simply choose to be Prosumers & retail some products. Fine! All the more profit for them.
It works more than just one way Joe. And an IBO CAN make a profit in the very first month of starting in this industry.
Sally
Sally,
Quixtar's numbers. Average ditto
clients per IBO = .23 Or about one ditto customer for every 5 IBOs.
Your long post still doesn't reasonably explain how a group can be profitable as a whole.
Also, about Platinums and above making money off the business tools...I did not know Platinums and above got discounts on tools and sell them for more money to the rest of us...however, upon learning that..I'm not mad. In fact...I could really care less! Who cares if their making money "off" of me? Believe me, I'm getting something from them as well! I've called my upline Platinum w/2 days notice to come show a plan for me..and you know what? He came...same w/my upline Emerald! Hell, I even had a crossline Diamond come show a plan for me..he doesn't even get credit for my PV!! Sounds to me like they EARN the money they make! Who knows..maybe they get "paid" (so to speak) because of all the "sorting" they have to do for pickup. If your a Platinum w/100 ppl in your group, thats A LOT of sorting! I know they get free shipping on products, yet I pay 4% at pick-up..its because they have to sort and organize all the product they get. That sounds fair to me! It makes me want to work harder to get to Platinum, because right now I'm doing all that sorting and organizing for free!! :D
joecool>
"Yuo can say they are working their way up, or whatever, but come tax time their schedule C reports a LOSS."
Guess what? Amazon.com has been in business since 1997, and they have NEVER made a profit. They claim a loss every year on their taxes..are they quitting? Nope. Cuz they can see that if they keep their eye on the prize, they will eventually turn a profit..and a HUGE one at that. The guys that own Amazon.com could very well take Bill Gates place as the worlds weathiest men someday.
BUT!! I will say again..NO IBO's should be buying tools until their business profits pay for them...until then, their upline should lend them theirs. For single people it may take a little longer, they will need to aquire some retail clients..but this is NOT hard, if they put in the effort..but married ppl-especially those w/kids should be able to cover their basic tools from their personal wholesale-to-retail profits from the very first month they start their business. We do in our family. The problem is, most IBO's charge themselves wholesale prices, to "save" money over what they used to spend at their local retail store...then they blow the money they "saved" still sitting in their bank account at Happy Hour, or the movies, or on getting the phone bill caught up. So now, if they buy any tools, it IS an out of pocket expense...than they get mad because this business is "costing" them money. But what they don't realize is its their incompetance at handling their finances that is the reason their business is "costing" them money now.
I know this to be true because I have seen it COUNTLESS times in my group.
If people would do what the business tools (and their upline) tell them to do..(or as you say "brainwashing them..funny how when a BOSS tells you what to do its your JOB, but when your upline tells you what to do its BRAINWASHING..I never could figure that one out...)which is start a seperate account for your business. Charge yourself the RETAIL price for your personal products and write the check for it out of your PERSONAL checking account. Deposit that check into your BUSINESS account, and write your pick-up check (or debit card if you order online) out of your business account for the wholesale price, and LEAVE THE DIFFERENCE in the account to cover the cost of your tools.
People..its been proven that Quixtars RETAIL prices are on average-9% cheaper than Wal-Mart and 13% cheaper than Target, or Shop-Ko or those other retail outlets, so if you were still shopping there you would be spending more money than what you pay retail for at Quixtar..Put that money you "saved" to work for you!! Otherwise, your going to get frustrated about your expenses, quit..and than your back to shopping at Wal-Mart, etc paying an extra 9%-13% plus gas and wear and tear on your vehicle! And...no monthly PV check. Your back to spending money and getting nothing but the product you bought, vs spending money, and getting the product you bought, and a check every month.
Like one upline Diamond said "Quit? And go back to what? Paying more money for inferrior products?"
I really couldn't have said it better myself.
Comment from the OP: " Reading from the "prescribed book list" seems to lead to books, which, reinforce the idea that learning from training "system" is good."
That "perscribed book list" as you call it is nearly identical to the "book list" that Bill Gates has assigned to his Microsoft Executives (How To Win Friends And Infuence People, The Magic Of Thinking Big, etc). Bill Gates also hires John Maxwell (one of the WWDB's most outspoken supporters) to speak to his Executives at Microsoft funtions.
Since these Executives are all working at "jobs"...is it now ok that we are reading these books to? Oh, and by the way...WWDB RECOMMENDS these books. Bill Gates MAKES his Executives read them. WWDB RECOMMENDS you listen to the CD's that John Maxwell records...Bill Gates MAKES his Executives attend the funtions to listen to him.
R. Halling,
Please don't compare quixtar to Amazon. That is a poor comparison.
Your do as your boss says because you get paid to do so. Your quixtar boss (upline) actually makes money off you when you do as he/she says. No on told you about tools money going upline? The fact that it was not disclosed should tell you something about your upline no?
And Quixtar is not 9% cheaper than Walmart. Would you like to provide us a link or specific examples to prove that outrageous claim?
Guess what? Amazon.com has been in business since 1997, and they have NEVER made a profit. They claim a loss every year on their taxes..Oh, plz... give me a break. They claim loss AFTER paying their employees and owners tons of money and stock options. Heck, I'll take millions of business loss any time if I'm making billions in capital gain.
R. Halling
Do you know what making a profit is?
A big company might take a few years to make a profit (net), because of the large initial investment. In quixtar you are supposed to have low overhead and profit right away but IBOs don't due to the tools. In Amazon, they likely profited from day 1, but they just did not make up the initial investment untl years later, but they were profiting when they opened their doors. Big difference.
Can't wait to see the proof that
quixtar is 9% cheaper than walmart. Maybe I was wrong all along.
Joecool,
I am so disappointed. I try so hard to be nice & professional but you just make it difficult! Every time you post a response or a statement, you prove your lack of intelligence along with your lack of experience. You really have no idea what you're talking about and really shouldn't be posting on this site.
First of all, you want proof of profit for the "group as a whole"? Huh??? What in the WORLD are you talking about??? Please explain what kind of measurement of success you are looking for. It seems like this is coming out of your a-s. Where was it ever stated, written or promised, that the entire LOS group (I assume that's what you mean by "group")had to profit as a "whole" at one given moment in time?
It's becoming more obvious to me that you are not reading the answers given back to you. READ THEM. Then, maybe you'll be quiet & go away!
A few more things Joe"cool", two years ago, Amazon.com & Ebay both pulled way back on their mass advertising (TV, Newspaper & Mag Ads - they were paying approx. $12 million/year) because they were losing MORE money than in previous years. They then adopted the "affiliate marketing" model that Quixtar.com leads in the marketplace. The biggest differences, my friend, is that they don't have as well-known of brand names, lesser prices or a comp plan that pays anything close to what Quixtar.com pays.
So, you're right. You can't compare Quixtar.com to Amazon.com because there is no comparison. Quixtar.com is a far better opportunity for the average person, bar none.
Another thing: your "upline" is NOT your boss. You cannot compare the two. Also, your upline does NOT necessarily make money by the downline IBO following CORE teachings. ALL IBO'S ARE PAID ON VOLUME...IF ONE DOES NOT DO THE WORK, THERE IS NO VOLUME, THEREFORE, NO BONUS CHECK!!!
Just two more things Joe: Average Monthly Ditto PV: 147 Average Monthly NON-Ditto PV: 37. If the average IBO has only .23 (by the way, that's closer to 1 out of 4), it's because they're not TAUGHT Ditto, OR, they're not doing the WORK (again, that nasty 4 letter word!), to get the Ditto clients/downline.
And ONE LAST THING, Joe, I do have a spreadsheet that compares approx. 20 or so randomly selected, consumable Quixtar/Alticor/ABG products to the #1 BESTSELLING "LIKE" PRODUCT purchased at Wal-mart, Target, Cub Foods (local grocery store) and Simon Delivers (regional grocery delivery service). We come out LESS THAN on BOTH Retail AND Wholesale Comparisons.
The link I have would lead you to a training website and I don't have authority to share it (I'm sure you'll tear THAT statement apart...ha! ha!) but I would LOVE to post it as an attachment. But, I don't know how. If you can tell me that, it's all yours! :-)
That's it, buddy!
Sally
Joecool,
This one's just for you, baby. :-)
This is taken from an article written by Diamond, Orrin Woodward of TEAM:
"It has been stated in numerous arguments that only 1 out of every (100, 150, 200?) Independent Business Owners (IBOs) ever go Platinum. This is an interesting statistic, but very misleading at best and dead wrong at worst. Since building communities takes time (2-5 yrs) – taking any snap shot in time is not the proper way to measure these statistics. The way our plan works – many IBOs building a little volume vs. a few IBOs doing a lot of volume – there will always be only a small percentage at Platinum at any point in time. The Team teaches somewhere around 100-150 people for every Platinum. The headlines would read, "Only one out of 100 will ever go Platinum." That doesn’t mean remaining IBOs will never go Platinum, only that they haven’t yet. A team’s growth rate is independent of this statistic no matter how fast they are growing because it would still take 100-150 new people to go Platinum. Let me illustrate through the following example.
If a team had 100 people each doing 75 points of Member/Client or personal use volume, that would be 7500 points and 1 out of 100 people would have had a qualifying Platinum month. The headlines would pronounce, "Only one out of 100 ever reach 7500 points," when actually the other 99 who have not achieved 7500 points are still in process. Even at the incredible growth rate of 10,000 percent the following month (each IBO starts 100 new people) the statistics would not change. Now the team has 10,000 IBOs in 60 days and is exploding! This team had an amazing 100 people achieve at least one qualifying month in 60 days and yet the headlines would still blare, "Still only one out of 100 IBOs ever achieved a qualifying month!" The fallacy in these statistics is to assume that none of the IBOs on this journey will ever complete the process. Anyone who would use statistics in this manner to prove our business doesn’t work is either ignorant of statistics or purposely misleading.
A better way to measure results of this growth model would be to take all people who have been involved for (1, 2, ... 5) years following the training program and ask how many have made the Platinum level or above. This is what I did at our most recent Men’s Leadership. In a survey of every man who has shown the program at least 15 times a month for 12 consecutive months, it was found that 2 out of 3, or 66.66% were qualifying at the Platinum level or above. An enormous difference from the "One out of every (100, 150, 200?) IBOs ever go Platinum" statement. Think about it: if you showed up for your job 15 times per month for one year you would be fired! On the Team you are a rising star on the team making a significant side income! Success is just a discipline to do what the average person won’t do. The average person could win in life but they just won’t discipline themselves to do work."
"This is taken from an article written by Diamond, Orrin Woodward of TEAM"
Oh well then it has to be true!
The problem with that article is Orrin's supposed survey has to be the worst survey quoted for all time. No data about how he went about collecting this information, etc.
Also, if he is talking about 2-5 years why is he only stopping at Platinum? I thought you were to be a Diamond by then? As for that statistic Quixtar has been around for more then 5 years now and the Dussaults are the only ones I know of that made in 2-5 years. How many IBOs were signed up year one? I guess that would be one out of that number, whatever that number is it can't be good.
Checkmate Orrin!
Sally,
Please, what is with the YELLING? Anyway your quote:
"First of all, you want proof of profit for the "group as a whole"? Huh??? What in the WORLD are you talking about??? Please explain what kind of measurement of success you are looking for."
Really says it all right there. It is the contention of many critics (including myself) that the only way you make money in Quixtar is to have a large downline of people losing money every month. This is proven by the fact that many groups "as a whole" are not profitable.
So for you to show us that in Quixtar you do not make money based upon how many in your group you have losing money, then your group should on the average be pulling a profit.
I actually delved into this a little on my blog when I did my series on the math of going eagle. You can find it for your reading enjoyment here:
http://www.quixtarinsideout.com/?cat=2
Joecool
Sally is right. She can't post the link, it is an internal WWDB link for Hawkins group only. The price comparison was done at a Target and Wal-Mart in Maple Grove, MN. It is a comparison that we show to our prospective Clients, Prosumers and IBO's.
In the Quixtar catalogs they also have price comparisons..those are public for everyone to see.
Also..the Quixtar business plan IS the same as Amazon.com. I have finally gotten tired of waiting for you to do the research.
I believe it was you who said "just cuz you sell stuff and Amazon sells stuff doesn't make your businesses identical". First of all, Amazon doesn't "sell" anything, and neither do I. I have a my.biz website that I refer customers to. It is a website porthole that links to Quixtar and its affiliate partners. Amazon is also a website porthole. When you go to Amazon.com and you search for what you want, Amazon sends you to their business partners links. If you buy a book from "Amazon", it will more than likely come from Barnes and Nobles, or one of their other book partner stores. Amazon gets a portion of the sale for "sending" your business to them.
Quixtar works the same way. We IBO's paid by Quixtar for sending business to them, whether it is in the form of a Client, Prosumer or IBO..every item they buy is forever linked to us and we will get paid for every item they buy. THAT is how our business is identical. The only difference is that Amazon has invested millions of dollars in media advertising to "get" people to their site, so they start shopping, so their Affiliates start making money and sending them a chunk of it so they can make the payments on those loans they took out for advertising. We IBO's on the other hand, market our business by word of mouth. We don't have to pay for advertising. THAT is how it is a low overhead business.
Go to www.franchises.com once. Take a look at what it costs to start a business. To start a Starbucks, your looking at a $75,000 investment! And your challenging that Quixtar ISN'T a business w/low overhead???? What are you looking for?? A JOB?!
Oh, and you say that "your boss gets 'paid' to tell you what to do, your upline makes money off of you." Ummm, what planet are you on? You don't think your boss makes money off of you? HE WOULDNT HAVE A JOB IF IT WEREN'T FOR YOU!! If you and the other employees weren't there, who would he "boss" around? Of course he's making money off of you!!! And YES my upline does make money off of me..they are the ones who "refered" me to Quixtar..thats how the business plan works! The great thing is for every $10 I make, my upline makes maybe $3.00...unlike at your job where your boss probably makes twice what you do for doing half as much work.
I'm very happy my upline is making money off of me..that means I'M making even MORE money! I hope they make A LOT more money off of me in the years to come! In fact..someday I hope they make $300,000 a year off of me..cuz that would make me pretty close to a millionaire! Sounds like a fair trade to me! Or..I could stay in the job world, where I make $50,000 a year, and my boss makes $75-100,000. Hmmmmm...No thanks!
R. Halling,
It is as simple as this you are either up for the challenge or you are not. You say you are here to get the other side out, well only one side is being told on the podcast thus far. I am sure Qblog would be more then willing to post any debate with an IBO on this page for all to listen to.
In your words:
"Typing on a computer is a lot easier than than sticking your neck out on the line by talking to a stranger about this business"
Couldn't of said it better myself. Lots of tough talk about the business from your computer but for some reason none want to talk about it. So you either live by your own preaching, or you can continue to make excuses.
If you choose to continue to make excuses, rest assured your preaching will be lost on those who will recognize that you refuse to do what you say others should have done!
So it's up to you and any other IBO here *cough* SALLY *cough*. If you are really here to give the other side then do it, and practice what you preach and come out from behind your keyboard and talk to a stranger about your business
Drew,
I'd like a shot at challenging your theory that a sponsor should have every person in their group making money...
When I had my sales job at the phone company all the sales employees were split up into "teams". Each team had a coach (AKA-the lowest boss on the totum pole) Each coach had a $$ objective they had to hit every month. It was a combination of what each rep on their team had to hit. So lets say each reps personal objective was $25,000 (which we had to hit to make a commission check) and we had 10 people on our team. That would make our team objective (which the coach had to hit in order to make a commisson check) $250,000. Do you think that each rep hit $25,000? NEVER. Not once. There were always 3 or 4 people on the team who could never hit their objective, and no amount of coaching would help them (to learn why refer to my earlier post). So how did the coach hit, and many times blow away his objective? Because some of us were so successful that we hit double, or even triple what our objective was and make up for the slackers.
Maybe thats why I can see this business so much more clearly than you guys can..because I have been in a job where it has a lot of the same ideas..follow a sales model and you WILL get a sale. Don't follow it, you won't. It proved true in that job, and it is true here in this business.
In my group I have 3 or 4 people who just haven't accepted what it takes to make a profit (other than their personal PV) from their business, but I have several others who are blowing it our of the water and will no doubt pass me by the end of the year (I'm only working my business a few hours a week, we just had a baby 4 months ago)
It is impossible for a sponsor to guarentee that every single person in his/her group will succeed, just like it was impossible for my coach at my old job to guarentee that every person on his team made their objective. You can only show someone how to do the job so many times..the application of that knowledge is up to them...
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink...well, maybe Jack Bauer could. (:
My focus is to find as many people as I can who have the same ambition that I do. As for the rest, I encourage them to build their business as much as I can, but in the end I HAVE to meet them at their needs. If hitting 100-300 PV is enough for them, so be it. If they ask me for help, I give it to them, but I don't beat them over the head w/ideas when I'm getting vibes that they don't care. Their grown adults. They can figure out for themselves what they want. Sometimes they come to their senses and say "Ok, what I'm doing isn't working. Can you help me?" but most of the time they don't. Thats where the "some will, some won't, so what?" mentality comes into play. A lot of people think its wrong to think that way..well, anyone who says that has never had a group of IBO's to mentor. If you beat yourself up over every group member who isn't living up to what they said they wanted to achieve, you would go NUTS! Instead, focus on continuing to look for the people that want the same thing you do and set an example for the rest!
Joecool..your OP:
"Many downline are doing 100 PV, maybe more maybe less. These IBOs may get back $8, maybe $17. Yes, some are lazy, some do the business half heartedly, but the one indisputable fact is if they are on the teaching system, THEY ARE LOSING MONEY!"
Thank you SOOOO much for proving our point in one wonderful post. Now let me add to it.
You just admitted that IBO's CHOOSE to continue to pay for business tools they have no intention of ever using...then complain about how their business costs them money. Isn't that like buying a car, never driving it, then complaining about the payment every month?
You just stuck your ENTIRE foot in your mouth. I'm not trying to be mean Joe, but you really don't help the cause of the other anti-Quixtar bloggers who work sooooooo hard to come up with CREATIVE reasons why our business fails..Your reasons are just too correct and right on the money to convince anyone this business doesn't work.
DREW> The problem with that article is Orrin's supposed survey has to be the worst survey quoted for all time. No data about how he went about collecting this information, etc.
SALLY> How do you know? Can you back that statement up? I simply 'cut & pasted' verbiage that directly addressed JOECOOL'S (not yours) postings about supposedly accurate statistics.
DREW> Also, if he is talking about 2-5 years why is he only stopping at Platinum? I thought you were to be a Diamond by then? As for that statistic Quixtar has been around for more then 5 years now and the Dussaults are the only ones I know of that made in 2-5 years. How many IBOs were signed up year one? I guess that would be one out of that number, whatever that number is it can't be good.
SALLY> This piece of the article is specifically addressing the statistics about PLATINUM. I'm sure the stats on Diamond are in another location in this article, or in another article. Again, I was addressing Joecool's claims on Platinum stats.
As far as # of IBO's going Diamond in 2-5 years...ONCE AGAIN, I REPEAT for the LAST TIME, DREW.......the number of IBO's who are CORE+ for 2-5 years will CORRELATE with the number of DIAMONDS after that 2-5+ years! The problem is NOT the system, nor the Quixtar business model. The problem is the lying & deceitful IBO's COMBINED WITH the LACK of IBO's being committed to 100% CORE on a CONSISTENT basis! Period. That's not a good or bad fact. It's just a fact!
DREW> Please, what is with the YELLING?
SALLY> Sorry, my passion and frustration are showing again.
DREW QUOTING SALLY>"First of all, you want proof of profit for the "group as a whole"? Huh??? What in the WORLD are you talking about??? Please explain what kind of measurement of success you are looking for."
DREW> Really says it all right there. It is the contention of many critics (including myself) that the only way you make money in Quixtar is to have a large downline of people losing money every month. This is proven by the fact that many groups "as a whole" are not profitable.
SALLY> Heavy, heavy sigh*****........I just don't get what you don't understand. I can not possibly explain it any more clearly & specifically than I have in previous posts. I'm done trying to explain it to you. You will see ONLY what you WANT to see. That's it. Talk about being "brainwashed"...
DREW> So for you to show us that in Quixtar you do not make money based upon how many in your group you have losing money, then your group should on the average be pulling a profit.
SALLY> Once again Drew, my response was directed to Joecool's statements. Again, WHAT GROUP are you referring to? The LOS? It IS possible for everyone to make a Profit in their first month! I very clearly outlined this in another post. Drew, you must admit that there are a multitude of variables to consider here. Are they CORE? How much PV/BV are they at per month? 100? 500? 1500? A profit is simply your income exceeds your outflow. That can be reached in many different ways through this business model. With, or without tools!
DREW> So it's up to you and any other IBO here *cough* SALLY *cough*. If you are really here to give the other side then do it, and practice what you preach and come out from behind your keyboard and talk to a stranger about your business
SALLY> Is that a personal attack? Or a challenge? I assume it's the latter. I wasn't paying attention to the info. on the podcast. I too, don't own an IPOD (no need) so haven't ever experienced "podcasting".
I believe I'm going to take the time I've been posting on this site, and redirect it back to building my business & building others up.
Drew, let me know about the podcast "thing".
Sally
Drew,
Is this podcast verbal, or written? I'm assuming by you saying "get behind you keyboard" we will be typing.
If so, I accept your challenge..if its verbal I can't.
What information about my business history will I need to participate in this debate? Or are we just debating ideas? I'm assuming your at least going to tell me what we will be discussing.
Everyone please forgive my ignorance about "podcasts"..I guess I'm out of my technology league on this one. (:
Very much looking forward to your response Drew.
Joecool>
Your OP:
"Quixtar's numbers. Average ditto
clients per IBO = .23 Or about one ditto customer for every 5 IBOs."
Joe, I would have thought by now you gave up trying to use "averages" to justify success or failure in this business, but apparently not, so I will give you another lesson.
Here's a repeat average for you-The "average" college student-doesn't go to college anymore! College has an "average" 60% drop out rate...does that mean that everyone drops out of college? Nope..just the ones who quit.
The "average" size of a woman in America is size 14, and the "average"
height is 5'6- That puts the "average" woman in America at over 150 lbs, which is 15+ lbs overweight..does that mean that EVERY woman in America is overweight? Nope, just the ones who consume more carbs than they need.
There is a book in on our "perscribed" list called "The Enemy Called Average"..maybe you should check it out. Than you would see how ridiculous you sound. It teaches you to ignore the "averages" and strive for success.
Oh! Heres another "average" for you. When I decided to start my own business, I googled which businesses have created the most female millionaires. Two businesses came up. Mary Kay and Quixtar. Hows that for an average? (:
Sally,
The more important question is can Orrin back up his figures? Interesting that you want me to debunk them but you give him a free pass on actually having legitimate stats. Double standard maybe?
SALLY> "As far as # of IBO's going Diamond in 2-5 years...ONCE AGAIN, I REPEAT for the LAST TIME, DREW.......the number of IBO's who are CORE+ for 2-5 years will CORRELATE with the number of DIAMONDS after that 2-5+ years! The problem is NOT the system, nor the Quixtar business model. The problem is the lying & deceitful IBO's COMBINED WITH the LACK of IBO's being committed to 100% CORE on a CONSISTENT basis! Period. That's not a good or bad fact. It's just a fact!
I assume then you have data to support that fact, because if you don't then it is not a fact.
SALLY> "Once again Drew, my response was directed to Joecool's statements. Again, WHAT GROUP are you referring to? The LOS? It IS possible for everyone to make a Profit in their first month! I very clearly outlined this in another post. Drew, you must admit that there are a multitude of variables to consider here. Are they CORE? How much PV/BV are they at per month? 100? 500? 1500? A profit is simply your income exceeds your outflow. That can be reached in many different ways through this business model. With, or without tools!"
That is good and well that you directed them to Joe, but you got a response from me and most likely you will get one from Joe as well. Also, I think in my posts to you I stated "your group", meaning the group that begins with you at the top of the pyramid....errr....well yeah pyramid!
R. Halling, Sally, and any other IBO who wants to step up,
A podcast is verbal, and is a real-time forum. It is basically like a talk radio program except it is not live. Which is why I said "come out from behind your keyboard."
All you need to do is send me an e-mail to truth@quixtarinsideout.com and I will send you all you need to make this happen.
R.Halling why exactly can you not do a verbal debate, but can only do a written one?
R. Halling,
First of all are you comparing a JOB to a business? Are you comparing employees to business owners? I thought Quixtar was not a JOB, so why are you making a comparison?
Second, I am talking about the overall profitability of the group, not each individual IBO. Your example shows that even though you had some slackers the group still surpassed their objective. Your example does not meet what I have laid out, I am talking about the group as a whole, not each individual.
Now what I am talking about is taking the whole amount of money each IBO your group is pulling in from Quixtar and then subtracting the losses from each IBO in the group and seeing if your group has a profit on the whole. Many groups are losing money and the higher up you take the group in the LOS the more money is being lost. Meaning that success in Quixtar is only attained by having a large amount of people in your downline losing money each month. I don't know about anyone else but I don't consider myself a success if it is attained at the loss of many others.
Sally, I'm on this site because I belive that there is an alternative choice to the Motivational organizations that are currently in use. There is more "hype" in WWDB and BWW and LTD then there is solid, practical information on how to build your business. Information on what it takes to build a Network Marketing Business. WWDB, BWW, AND LTD seem to be more interested in promoting themselves than teaching about how to build a business. I'm not bitter Sally, I'm a IBO that can't find alignment with LTD. They are a breakoff of BWW and I was under WWDB 12 years ago. I'm on this blog because there is an alternative to these Motivational Organizations. I feel that these organizations are giving Quixtar a bad name. Leadersclub's mission is to change the industry. Leadersclub would rather have you learn what it takes to build a NWM business and decide that's not for you than to string you along for months and years causing financial ruin. When I was attending meetings and functions, it seems to me that the next meeting or next funtion is where you will learn what it takes to build your business and I was told that I should do what ever it takes to get there. My upline is looking out for their best interest not mine. When I was plugged in to the "system" I felt that there was no alternative (you can't build a business without "upline") It is perceived that BWW/LTD/WWDB and Quixtar are one. I thougt I was getting TRAINING. BWW/LTD/WWDB are motivational organizations that are not very effective. Greg Duncan on his CD "incredible Edibles" says that 95 percent of IBO's do not renew there IBO-ship. I don't think that the 95 percent are Lazy, or losers. WWDB is working for you that's great, but it dosen't work for everybody.
I'm trying to let people know that there is an alternative to the "hype".
R Halling,this is from a post way back there. Are you telling us that you provide cds and books for all your downline until they are making a profit? That must get expensive for you and your upline must REALLY love you alot
Sally and R. Halling,
That those words posted and still no proof that quixtar is 9% cheaper than walmart. Only a weak excuse that the link is not available. Care to give some specific examples? Is a 1 pound box of SA8 cheaper than a 50 pound box of Walmart detergent? Not even one example? Weak argument.
And you guys make the claim that your upline is not your boss. You do what you wish because it is your business. Fine. TELL ME WHY YOU NEED TO WASTE MONEY ON CDS TAPES AND SEMINARS IF YOU WILL DO WHAT YOU WANT ANYWAY?
And like Drew, my contention is not that money cannot be made in quixtar. It's just that the pyramid nature of the business (I didn't say illegal pyramid) requires that people lose money for the guys at the top to profit. If I had a group of 100 McDonald's owners, or Pizza Hut owners, 99 or 100 out of 100 MAKES MONEY! There's no way quixtar comes close. In fact it's probaby the opposite with 99 out of 100 losing money.
And please stop with the college dropout rate. I believe about 50% of students graduate, but even if NONE graduated, it doesn't make the quixtar success rate any better does it?
Just go and poll your own groups. Look at their quixtar bonus and subtract their expenses for tapes, seminars, gas, etc and see who many in your group make a net profit. Is it that hard?
Seems like you guys write novels upon novels without ever proving a point.
R.Halling and Sally,
The wicked IBO witches! Nice going girls, you keep on talking the tape. It gives us QCrits something to bounce around on, not unlike a pillowy layer of angel cake, lots of air and little else.
I would like to ask a serious question involving finances. How much do you Glister lovers make at the QBIZ? I would be very interested in knowing the length of time you have been perpetrating this endevor as well.
Thanks so MUCH for a reply and hugs!
...please stop with the college dropout rate. (...) even if NONE graduated, it doesn't make the quixtar success rate any better does it?
Absolutely true. Beside, when is the last time a Harvard recruiter approach you in B&N and said: "hey, you look like a sharp person. How would like to make some extra money with a proven system?" ... :)
All you need to do is to do the math on a direct group. As a whole, they will always collectively lose money, unless they are retailing like crazy.
A direct group is 7500 PV. 100 PV costs about $270. $270 x 75 = $20, 250
a month, or $243, 000 a year. (for products)
7500 PV = about 18, 750 BV. 18, 750 BV = monthly bonus of $4687.50 or $56, 250 for the year, for the entire group.
Let's say the group had a direct distributor who does 100 PV and 74 IBO's who also do 100 PV.
The Direct pays out $592 ($8 x 74) and keeps $55, 658 for the year, plus a one time bonus of $10K. Over $65K is pretty good.
Now lets say these are all CORE IBO's dedicated to the cause. They spend about $250 each month for tapes, cd's functions, voicemail, website. (Not including gas, child care) So monthly expenses for the group is $18,750 a month or $225, 000 a year in expenses and the group income is just over $65, 000 for a loss of $160, 000.
Isn’t quixtar a great deal?
And yes, I know this is a hypothetical group, but after all, it is the CORE IBOs that comprise the “backbone” of the business. If you debunk the example because it is hypothetical, then you should not be using the 2-5 year 6-4-2 plan either, because it is hypothetical also.
And yes, you can offset some losses with retail sales, but if you teach buy from yourself, there aren't much retail sales are there?
We may "draw" in circles but....you guys sure can TALK IN CIRCLES!!!
Wiz(not),
Quite a negative remark right out of the gate. Might want to work on them "people skills"...oh, I know! I have a book I can recommend.....
Pretty bold (name calling is not looked on kindly on this site) for someone I haven't even seen on this site before. Why don't you go through some old posts before asking something that's been answered (a couple of times). I won't waste my time again.
Joecool & Drew,
Don't you guys READ the words we write in our posts??????? It seems as though you don't. I am almost always sincerely puzzled by your responses. They don't ever really address the specifics we write. It's more of the same old boring accusations...just re-worded.
Joecool,
What's with your last post? I believe I've seen that same, exact example in a couple of other posts you did. I already addressed that!!!!! Specifically. READ IT.
You also put forth a challenge that I will take: you asked for a poll of my downline as to what their NET profit is from this biz.
Let's see, I have many downline. None CORE. Why? NOT WILLING!!!!!! PERIOD. I believe I've heard about every EXCUSE in the book!
However, Joecool, I have written FOUR BONUS CHECKS in the past month. So, each profited. It wasn't a million dollars but you're looking for NET PROFIT, right? In fact, one of the bonus checks was for $48.00. All he did was buy 3 cases of XS & some SA8 for himself. The rest was RETAIL to a friend.
So, there you go, Joe. A real life example. Just like you wanted. Although I don't think you'll actually READ THIS through and take the time to understand it. Hopefully, you will.
Sally
P.S. Price comparisons coming. That'll take more time. As it is, I type these late at night 'cuz I'm busy with kids, home, part time business (yeah, THIS one), social activities, extended family, volunteering, in other words, a REAL LIFE! So, when I can get to RE-TYPING some of the info., I will, if I feel like it. :-)
GAE,
Your OP: "R Halling,this is from a post way back there. Are you telling us that you provide cds and books for all your downline until they are making a profit? That must get expensive for you and your upline must REALLY love you alot"
I lend CD's to all my downline until they make enough profit to pay for their own. I've been on S.O.T for a year..I have plenty of CD's to go around. I buy doubles of a few specific CD's that I believe best represent our business and I give them to prospects. I don't know if that makes my "upline" love me or not..I don't think about that. I'm worrying about MY group, and helping THEM grow..not my upline. My upline will grow as I grow. Maybe thats why some of you failed in this business..because you spent SO much time worrying about how much money your upline was making-You didn't focus on the REAL goal of this business--helping YOUR group create profit.
The "Book Of The Month" is mostly on a repeat schedule, so it doesn't take very long to accumulate all the books...I don't buy the books from upline anyway. I buy them from BarnesandNoble.com (our partner store) so I can earn PV on the purchases. I don't care if the books are cheaper thru upline. You don't create profit by SAVING money, you creat profit by creating income. Buying from yourself creates income. I do have several duplicate copies of "How To Win Friends And Influence People".
I don't ask my downline to spend money out of pocket (other than their initial business fee investment) unless I can show them that they will be at least breaking even at the end of the month. Maybe everyone doesn't do that for their group..but I do it for mine. I doubt that makes my success rate any better than anyone elses..but at least if people quit-they don't quit feeling ripped off...and you sure won't find them complaining on boards like this!
None of my downline that has taken this business seriously has taken longer than 2 months to create $100 a month in profit. $100.00 will cover Premier Membership (which pays for their website) and S.O.T.. I don't suggest to my downline that they be on "Communicate"..because I am not on it. I haven't seen how my business will profit more w/it..plus I hate talking on machines. (: I would much rather speak to the person directly, or send an email. My upline doesn't have a problem w/me or my group not being on it, and he forwards me any messages he feels are important, and I forward them to my group. But I can't say that any of the messages he has sent me has created growth in my business. If anyone is just taking my tools and not applying what they are learning, I stop lending the tools to them. Its as simple as that. God helps those who help themselves..I follow that philosophy as well.
Drew,
My husband would not approve of me participating in a verbal podcast..not because it would be about this business...He doesn't really know anything about my business. A verbal debate is too personal, and he just wouldn't like me doing it Period. It wouldn't matter what it was about..religion, politics, etc. And I respect his wishes.
I am again offering you the compromise of opening a topic and debating it. We can write that it is off limits to others. I think the people on this blog would respect that. If they don't..well, than oh well. After we are done people would be free to put in their comments.
Joecool,
Your OP: "Now lets say these are all CORE IBO's dedicated to the cause. They spend about $250 each month for tapes, cd's functions, voicemail, website. (Not including gas, child care) So monthly expenses for the group is $18,750 a month or $225, 000 a year in expenses and the group income is just over $65, 000 for a loss of $160, 000".
$250.00!!! Where the HECK are you getting THAT number from????????
Premier Membership is $41.00-That includes your website. CD's are $2.50-5.00 each-You get one a week..Thats only $20.00 a month There are only 2-3 meetings a month and they are $7 each. Even if you add "Communicate", the books and a couple funtions a year..thats still WAAAAY less than $250.00 a month.
Oh, nice post BTW...where did you copy it from? It was very obvious you didn't write it.
Drew,
Your OP: "Second, I am talking about the overall profitability of the group, not each individual IBO. Your example shows that even though you had some slackers the group still surpassed their objective. Your example does not meet what I have laid out, I am talking about the group as a whole, not each individual.
Now what I am talking about is taking the whole amount of money each IBO your group is pulling in from Quixtar and then subtracting the losses from each IBO in the group and seeing if your group has a profit on the whole. Many groups are losing money and the higher up you take the group in the LOS the more money is being lost. Meaning that success in Quixtar is only attained by having a large amount of people in your downline losing money each month. I don't know about anyone else but I don't consider myself a success if it is attained at the loss of many others."
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I wasn't comparing owning a business to a job. I was showing how there is no way ANYONE can guarentee that an ENTIRE group is successful..in a group situation you will ALWAYS depend on the overachievers to compensate for the underachievers....look at sports teams! Its the same thing in this business.
While I can't say that every person in my group is making a lot of money, I can say that everyone is either making money, or at this moment- breaking even...I can say that NO ONE in my group is losing money...except the people who paid the $117 business fee than disapeared. That has happened a few times...but that is COMPLETELY out of my control.
If someone in my business started out gungho, wanting to be a millionaire..than decided they couldn't prospect, I talk to them about just being Prosumers-or just being a Retailer, which doesn't involve the tools. I have a LOT of Prosumers in my group, and I have one guy in my group who only Retails...he doesn't even use his own products! He has TIDE laundry soap at his house! Even though I showed him his product is of better quality and less expensive!..Yes I know this makes no sense..but oh well! In the end, you have to meet people at their needs. He sells about 13 cases of XS a month to his softball buddies, makes about $5 in profit per case, plus a $15.00 PV check and he seems content w/that. If he's happy, I'm happy.
I'm not saying that all IBO's should run their groups this way. I choose to lend my group the tools because although a lot of people when they start out may THINK they can build this business. When the rubber meets the road..sadly, most of them can't, or don't prospect. And prospecting is what makes or breaks a business builder. As Ron Puryer said "He who shows the most plans wins".- The way I run my group, no one has any reason to feel cheated out of money if they fail to build this business.
Your husband doesn't approve of you talking on the phone? Because that is what it amounts to. I don't see how in anyway it is personal. You don't have to reveal personal info of any kind and is no more personal then a message board except other then you know what someone sounds like. Anyway, if that is the way you are going to play it then so be it.
As far as doing a post and having the comments exclusive for us is not my call. That is up to Qblog and I don't think he would like that. Debate is more what the forum is for and you can sign up there anytime.
Written debate however is a long drawn out process that I simply don't have the time to deal with. Especially since it is not real time which leaves lots of room for answers to be spun and points to be ignored. But if you figure out a plan of debate I will get with PW or Qblog and set it up on the board.
Personally I think you should go download Gizmo for your computer, make up a name and come on the podcast. But apparently knowing what your voice sounds like is just to personal for you.
As far as group income goes I am not asking for a guarantee that everyone in the group is successful, I am asking as the group on the whole.
See what I mean about written debate. One little point and it is back and forth, back and forth until you even understand what I am talking about. On the podcast this gets resolved in 30 sec.
Sally and R. Halling,
I think we are debating the wrong issues here. I am only against IBOs who are selling the "system" and not those who retail to customers. It is the system that leads IBOs into bankruptcy.
Joecool,
Since I strive to be a person "of my word", here are some examples & a summary of the Cost Comparison Spreadsheets:
EXAMPLE 1: SA8 Bioquest II Laundry Powder 6.6lb box - 100 FULL loads per box - $5.70 per month/$68.25 per year
VS.
Tide Powder 87oz box - says 40 sm-med loads on the box - per Procter & Gamble, 21.75 FULL loads - $8.55 per month/$102.62 per year - almost TWICE the cost as Quixtar
EXAMPLE 2: Body Series Body Wash 33.8oz bottle - 125 uses - $7.50 per month/$90.00 per year
VS.
Neutrogena Shower & Bath Gel 8.5oz bottle
Very well put.
I believe that the new IBO is responsible, the system is misleading, and AmQuix turns their head to the sewage going on. The new IBO has a choice - a choice to join or not join. If they join they then have a choice to "stay the course", a choice to build their AmQuix biz outside a system, and a choice to quit.
Having said that - the "systems" are very misleading and AmQuix turns their head. The systems try to be a business system, church, Club Med, and personal growth business. The new IBO only expects the first and perhaps the last part. The two in between, church and Club Med, are really what throws people off from my experience with WWDB. I like business systems and personal growth programs. I also love church and Club Med even more! However - all 4 together without these disclosures up front is what led to the demise of Amway and will lead to the demise of Quixtar. Especially when you throw in the "oopps, did I not tell you new IBOTs that the KingPins make millions off you from the CDs... functions... websites... yada, yada, yada...........?;)"
Posted by: SpinStopsHere | July 2, 2006 12:23 AM