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July 26, 2006
Family Reunion 2006
By Preston in A/QMOs
One of the most chilling wake up calls when I was getting "out" was Family Reunion. I had purchased a ticket for myself and my (now) wife under pressure from my upline. About seven weeks before the event I decided to cancel, because I could not justify the cost of $440. I did the math, and came up with a disturbing result: A $69/night hotel room, a dinner for two, and a continental breakfast. The rest was the cost of the 'function'. It didn't add up.
Upon sign up I clearly agreed to a nominal cancellation fee - in this case, $20 of the $440 would be used to cover administrative costs (which is fair enough). I received the refund from Brad Duncan's "Duncan Motivation" business and I was done with "the Business". To me, the refund was a commercially reasonable refund. I would later find out that when trying to return CDs, it is up to the individual. For whatever reason, Brad Duncan, Dick Davis, and Brad Wolgamott made a reimbursement happen long after the fact for the other tools I tried to return.
My question to IBO's is this: What did you pay for Family Reunion 2006, and, what services other than the function did you receive (meals, hotel, etc)? Was the function of value to you, or would you like a refund? It is well within your rights to seek a refund for the ticket if you feel you did not get value out of the function - and I strongly suggest you do so if that is how you feel. Inquire with your system as to the specifics if anyone gives you a hard time, it just might be worth your while.
If you are refused by the company headquarters, then there is an issue: The "Systems" no longer have the defense of "Well if only you had contacted us we could have worked this out" - if your legitimate claim to your rights is squashed. Don't give up their, either - make sure you get an official complaint in with Quixtar as well. Don't fade quietly into the night feeling guilty. Stand up - make a blog if you have to - but for goodness sake, get some of your money back, it is your right.
Comments
Preston is not using the word "chilling" in some dramatic crime context, it's a temperature context. He used it next to the term "wake up call." Surely you have heard of throwing cold water into someone's face to wake them up or bring them to their senses. That could definitely give one a chill.
As for the coach analogy, these upline "coaches" don't care if you've got mad skills, they just want you to show them the money.
RE: Pressure - "If you don't go to Family Reunion your business won't grow." "If you want to succeed you need to be there"
RE: Cost - No transportation was factored into the $440. It was a hotel, a dinner for 2 (for comparisson a dreamnight meal is $65 for 2 hours talk + $8 plate of chicken), a breakfast and afternoon speakers
Transportation wasn't factored in since it was in Portland OR and I was about 2 hours drive from there.
"I work as a contractor for the DoD and in some of the professional magazines that I've read, they offer professional development functions that cost upwards of $1,500.00 for a 1 day event."
I also work as a contractor for DoD and have seen the same things. However, for most contractors where I work those expenses are covered by the company they work for under their professional development benfits.
Preston
Arent these tools(hotels, cost of travel, tickets) Tax Deductible?
I had a great time at the function and I only had to pay a little over $300 for the entire weekend. I learn so much information to help develop a profitable business. When I attend personal and business development functions for my job I pay more $300 plus for just the ticket and if I want CDs to take with me, I am going to pay $100 or more for them as well. The pressure you mention I believe was encouragement from your upline to attend if I wanted to jumpstart my business, just as I received from my upline. The encouragement was strong from my upline, but had they not emphasized it so much, I do not believe I would have attended. They made me feel I would miss out on something tremendous if I did not attend, and they were right! I don't believe you should critize your upline so much. If your job told you to pay $440 to attend a professional development seminar with the possibility of being considered for a $2,000 raise, I don't think you would hesitate, would you?
My job would pay for the $440 seminar if they told me to go. Infact, they paid for my spring leadership ticket which I put in a request for...
Michael,
Great point. Those expenses are legitimite tax deductions. This is also one the points that many critics fail to facture into calculations with regards to ROI.
And actually, as an Upline to a large a growing team, and as a "COACH" to many, I would definitely want someone to go to a professional seminar detailing how to properly build the Quixtar business. That would keep more new IBOs from make stupid/ and sometimes "Shady" mistakes that give our industry a bad name.
Conferences are tax deductable, but as a general rule, you are only going to be getting $.15 to $.25 on the $1 back on taxes, depending on your overall taxable income. Also, as a general rule, the IRS will give you three years before your business should be profitable. It can be extended if your business is moving towards profitability. Otherwise, if your business keeps losing money, and you keep going to these same conferences year after yera and you get audited, you run a high risk of having your business declared a "hobby", and you have to pay a lot on back taxes. For more specific information, contact a local tax expert.
As for the costs of professional development, yes it can be high. In general, I've never had to pay a single cent for any PD I've done for my company. They pay the cost of the seminar, travel, lodging, food (usually reimbursed on my next paycheck after receipts are submitted). I also, in general, don't take the same seminars over and over again year to year, but try and switch up not only which seminars I attend, but which company is presenting. Therefore, I can a wide array of teachers/presenters. I also know that the presenter and company behind it are for profit, and are making a good chunk of money off of me.
Now, compare that to AmQuix seminars. No choice. Similar seminars every time, and the same ones every year. Not to mention, in years past, profits off of conferences and tools were not only hidden, but completely denied until the big pins could not hide it any longer.
$100 for function ticket, $120 for van transportation/gas. $108 for the room (it was only 2 people in the balcony room, usually $60 or less) and $30 for food.
Total: $358. Tax deductible: $343. (Meals/ent 50%)
Absolutely worth it. As my plat and above are about 1000 miles from me, i got one on one time with many of them such that i had a clear plan on what to do with my business.
Regarding Pers Development Programs: the ability of an employee to attend these meetings on their corporation's $ is based on the needs of that corporation and the $$ they have in the fund to send you. 4*$358 = $1432, less than 1 $1500 seminar, and IMO, more valuable as it pertains EXACTLY to my business. I didnt have to ask permission, i didnt have to provide a reason, i can get a refund easily, and it is tax deductible.
And another update of my upline plat: once again, he provided a refund on CDs more than 1 year after purchase conditionally on if they have a receipt. Is that unreasonable?
dmm & mevi,
you're approaching the business expenses with a job mentality. that's one of the biggest problems.
i had jobs for years. i totally understand what you're trying to say. however, the corp decides what training, how much training & when. that's even 'if' they have the money in their budget to send you to training.
the 'free' time you have is dictated by the job you have (hours you have to work). the car you drive is dictated by the job you have (salary or hourly wage). the house you own (if you own) is dictated by the job you have.
jobs are not bad. they are necessary. but they are meant to be temporary. our country was based on free enterprise & personal business ownership. most people would love the opportunity to do what they want when they want. if you want to work your job, great! wouldn't you love to work it when you wanted to work it?
quixtar & the MO's are simply providing a way for the average joe to have a secondary income. to help with his/her financial situation they got themselves into.
the 'family reunion' business seminar, when putting it into proper context with other training & motivational seminars, is cheap! really really cheap!
i agree there is 'some' repetition. but for the most part, they teach on how to stay motivated & positive. how to prospect. how to train. how to make money. how to retail. how to build your 'legs'. they have done everything for us but line people up in front of us.
it's such a no brainer. when i attended family reunion, i looked at it through a skeptic's eye (once again) and found nothing. i did hear a couple of silly or ridiculous statements but 95% of it was valuable, educational, interesting, motivating & real tools to help me make money in my business.
well worth the money spent.
thanks for reading. take care.
Growing IBO, you must have worked for bad companies. My company/division has a professional development budget. I'm asked to go about once every 6 months, and my boss encourages it. I also pick and choose, to some extent, which ones to go to.
Also, my job pays for my house, my car, my food, etc. I also have a 401k and IRA for future savings. I have also worked for myself. When I did, I struggled. I wasn't making enough to make ends meet, so I decided to go back and get a job! Oh, my job also pays for my medical insurance and other benefits like life insurance. Net/net, I'm much better off with my job. Working for myself - 60+hours a week, and struggling. Job, 40 hours a week and comfortable.
As for Quixtar providing a second income opportunity, it is a rather poor one. The average Quixtar IBO makes $115/month. That's pathetic. Work two four hour shifts at minimum wage a week, and you will beat that $115/month average. Heck, work two 6 hour shifts at Target a week, you will get paid more then minimum wage, and get a 10% discount at almost everything at the store. A much better deal then Quixtar is for the average IBO!
The reality is, a business owner mentality isn't much different then an employe mentality. It's a bunch of bs being pushed on you by tapes. If I'm making enough money as an employee, am I not better off then if I was struggling as a business owner? The biggest difference between employee and employer can be found in the risk/reward analysis. In general, business owners have a higher risk potential, and therefore have a higher reward potential. Business owners might have more leeway in what they do, but that's part of the higher risk.
Growing ibo>
jobs are not bad. they are necessary. but they are meant to be temporary.
I disagree. ENTRY LEVEL jobs are meant to be temporary, but many people love their jobs.
GI> our country was based on free enterprise & personal business ownership. most people would love the opportunity to do what they want when they want.
IM> True, but isn't Quixtar all about helping other people? Won't you have to deal with other people in this process? Don't other people have schedules and agendas also? Are open meetings and functions at the times of your own choosing or are they simpley set and you modify YOUR schedule to make them work?
GIif you want to work your job, great! wouldn't you love to work it when you wanted to work it?
IM>This sounds great in theory, but I'm not sure if it is true in reality.
GI, if you ever do any business with anyone in the form of writing, remember to use capital letters when needed. It will make your message come across as more professional.
DMM says: "The reality is, a business owner mentality isn't much different then an employe mentality. It's a bunch of bs being pushed on you by tapes. If I'm making enough money as an employee, am I not better off then if I was struggling as a business owner? "
B> This is where we (and many IBOS) disagree with you, DMM. And Napoleon Hill, George Clason, Paul Zane Pilzer, J.Paul Ghetti, Andrew Carnegie, et al would also disagree. It is not just in tapes...
BUt it does look like you struck a goldmine of a job, good for you! However i would see that as the extreme exception, no where close to the norm. Right?
IM: "Are open meetings and functions at the times of your own choosing or are they simpley set and you modify YOUR schedule to make them work?"
As an "I"BO, you are free to schedule the method in which you present the plan however it fits your schedule. Hence the flexibility with one-on-one, overview, house plan, open meeting, and webplan. Once again, placing blame is merely an excuse... personal responsibility anyone?
dmm,
you have a job in a million. to echo brad, good for you. again, that is not the norm. i had good jobs. really good jobs. they were also the "norm" in that they decided what, when & where.
i also got "laid off". twice. once when two of the offices closed completely & the second time when another company bought us out and got rid of the top 10% paid employees. so much for all my time & effort. again, a temporary position.
dmm, do you really think that most people really love their jobs? c'mon. you're kidding yourself. if you think they'd rather go to work until they die, vs. easily create a second income stream to help them retire early...then you don't know too many people. At least not people who've already put in a good number of years.
by the way dmm, glad you're comfortable. just don't become a burden on society in the next 8-12 years because you decided to do just enough to become 'comfortable'.
inquiring,
as far as a job being a temporary position..., it's not a matter of whether you agree or disagree. it's a fact. look it up yourself. that's what they were started for...until an apprentice got his/her (typically his, back in the day) own business going. they called them 'trades' back then. got it, now?
i let my prospects & downline know when i'm available. i have good hours. :-) i do my best to work my business within those parameters. i do have a family & a full time job so there has to be balance. yes, if there is an open or a training session, i may go to it. but it is not mandatory. besides, what else am i going to do after the kids go to bed.....sit and watch tv all night? oh, i know....play video games! yeah! NOT! i'll go hang with some faith-filled, positive, motivated, prosperous people instead.
by the way, sorry the 'no caps' thing bothers you. i'm not out to impress you with my level of professionalism. i'm here to express an opinion based on experience & knowledge.
I guess we need to agree on a definition of "job." If my job is being a nurse, and I receive my income from someone else for a service I provide, is this considered something that should be a temporary position. Do I need to own my own busiess of having a hospital or clinic before I am considered worthy in society, or am I contributing in a worth while manner already? I think people need to think about what their role in society is and putting their own personal gifts and abilities to use in their life, rather than having the "how much longer until I can quit" mentality.
GI> do you really think that most people really love their jobs? c'mon. you're kidding yourself. if you think they'd rather go to work until they die, vs. easily create a second income stream to help them retire early...
I think there will always be some people who find something to complain about regarding the method of how they earn their income. Some people just never find something that they enjoy doing that is of enough value to society that it provides enough income for them to live at the standard they desire.
Believe it or not, I know many people who love their "jobs" so much that without them, they would feel lost. I've seen farmers that don't know what to do if they aren't out in the fields or with the livestock. I know pastors who continue to serve congregations even after they have "retired" from a parish becasue they know the need is there and they want to fill it. (This one will kill you, sorry!) I've even known senior citizens who wokr at Walmart or other brick-and-mortar businesses because it gives them something to do, helps them get out, and makes them feel like they are contributing to society.
My and my spouse's jobs do not provide us with an astronomical income, but we love what we do. Do we get tired and frustrated at times and need a break? Of course, but that will happen with any job.
Maybe Quixtar should find a way to help people discover their talents and gifts in order to find a way to find the appropriate vocation in life to help them feel worthwhile in society, not just fill their minds will dreams of ways to escape and retire early. (and give to charities, too, of course.)
IM: Maybe Quixtar should find a way to help people discover their talents and gifts in order to find a way to find the appropriate vocation in life to help them feel worthwhile in society, not just fill their minds will dreams of ways to escape and retire early. (and give to charities, too, of course
B> That is EXACTLY what we do on my team. Get money out of the way so it does not blind what you really were meant to do (Dr. Jim Burns, for instance? Still a dentist, and proud of it... but if he needs to take a month off, HE CAN... options people). Listen to any CDs or functions lately? The tune has chagned from "flush that stinkin job" because jobs ARE important. BUt your family is MORE important... and the day you start making decisions to protect your job first over family, there are issues. ANd to all IBOs out there: there is a fine line between business sacrifice and placing Quixtar ahead of family, so tread with caution.
Lates
i agree with you IM, on most of your comments.
quixtar simply provides options. it's not for everybody. i felt the same way when i had my job(s)/career. didn't ever plan to fully retire until late 60's, early 70's then travel.
here's news: we still don't plan on retiring completely. what this will do, that 'most' jobs out there won't do....is, this will provide us the opportunity to have the 'time' and the 'money' to spend our days working with local nursing homes or orphans or in animal shelters or whatever God is calling us to do.
jobs aren't bad. either is this opportunity. it's simply a way to provide options & hope in people's lives. if they're not looking for that...fine! no biggie!
i'm glad you're happy & doing what you feel God is calling you to do.
I've come to realize that when it comes to debating and/or discussing the practices of Quixtar, it really is futile. It is like debating religion or politics; most of the time people just need to agree to disagree.
People who follow the Quixtar and its MO's way of thinking truly see things from a different,(and in an attempt to remain neutral, I will stress the use of the word "different" as opposed to a word that may have a negative connotation) perspective than most people. They have a different spin on things, and as long as that spin continues, there is no way of changing peoples' minds. I guess if that is the point of my debating, than it is futile, and I need to accept that.
What I may have in common with most Quixtar folks is that politically, I am a conservative Republican. (Rush L. rocks!) Spiritually, I am a conservative Lutheran who finds absolute answers in the inerrant (spelled right?) Word of God. Aside from that, Quixtar's view of money, the use of a person's life, vocation, and what is the best way to raise a family are different from mine. BWW's interpretation of Scipture is different from mine, therefore, many perspective that I hold sacred will be different from those who follow Britt's way of thinking. With all these differences, I should have realized long ago that there is very little common ground.
Sorry for rambling. I suppose I had an epiphany after GI's last post and realized that we (meaning non-quix people) are seeing things so differently from (quix people) that there is no way to debate Quix's concepts because they are just so very different from our own.
One last thing. I didn't mean to speak for ALL those who see things differently than Quixtar people. That was just MY point of view.
Also, when I refer to "spin" I did not mean that in a negative connotation, either. Everyone puts spin on what they hear and say. Some people, by nature, see and hear positive things, others, negative.
OK, I'm done now! :-)
IM: With all these differences, I should have realized long ago that there is very little common ground.
B> that's kinda sad...
Why is that sad?
Inquiringmind:
I'm one who sees more in common with people than differences. Take you and me. I'm on the other side politically (go Al Franken!), I am also a Christian, but in a different denomination. But like you, I disagree with the way God was used at functions. It was really bad in INA. Something else that most Americans have in common is a love for people and freedom. We just see different ways to solve problems. But that's what America is all about. The moment we are silenced is the moment America dies.
As for jobs, I am doing what God called me to do. I teach elementary school. I go back the week after next (year round). I get weeks off at a time, but at this point after 5 weeks I'm ready to go back! And yes, I put in about 60 hours a week and I don't make much. Do I care? Not really. I feel what I'm doing is important and worthwhile.
My other half is in danger of being laid off. Are we worried? Yes, of course. But change is part of life. I find it ironic that the speakers on stage preach that God has a plan for us but then turn around and talk about getting laid off and losing everything. That doesn't put much faith in God, does it?
Free Enterprise lover? You bet. I used my talents to create a niche for myself. I trained new teachers in the summer for two weeks, making around $3K. I also took a second job during the week which brought in around $1K a month. I stopped because of family obligations.
My point is that Quixtar is not the only way for people to go. Anyone can take their natural talents and create something for themselves.
Is Quixtar a way for some people? I think the answer is yes, but I don't think that everyone can be successful in it. I wouldn't be a successful pilot since I hate to fly. Someone who doesn't like to talk to strangers would probably not prospect very well.
inquiring,
what do we see so differently? i truly don't understand what you meant by that. i re-read what i wrote just to see if it would be 'obvious'. would you do me a favor and simply explain what you mean, in more detail?
i just remember my way of thinking prior to starting my own business. it wasn't really much different. the biggest changes have been that i'm much more aware, spiritually. and i am more aware of our economy. and i'm more aware of our society and that the 'gray' is getting 'grayer'. the lines are blurring between right & wrong and that i have to take a stronger stand on the 'right' (God's) side.
i know for a fact i used to be a little more negative, skeptical, sarcastic & fatalistic in my thinking. other factors in my life, besides my having a quixtar affiliated business, have affected that too. it's not just quixar & wwdb. but that's definitely been a big part of it.
robbie,
you said 'My point is that Quixtar is not the only way for people to go. Anyone can take their natural talents and create something for themselves.
Is Quixtar a way for some people? I think the answer is yes, but I don't think that everyone can be successful in it. I wouldn't be a successful pilot since I hate to fly. Someone who doesn't like to talk to strangers would probably not prospect very well.'
you're right. it's not for everyone. just as i stated previously. just as the 'higher pins' say from stage. i happen to love it. i disagree somewhat, however, that people can't change. if they don't like to talk to other people, there are ways they could get outside of their comfort zone if they choose too.
a lot of the success in this business, as with just about any endeavor, comes from choice. choice to practice longer than someone else. choice to show one more 'plan' than someone else. choice to read more than someone else. choice to put yourself in a position (purposefully) to meet more people than someone else.
you will then get better results than someone else.
not everyone is called to this. we, however, believe that we are. we are called to this financial option to help us fund our God-given callings to help others.
i volunteer at church. we deliver meals to the elderly. i will volunteer at my kids' school. we give generously (financially) to 5 chosen charities/ministries on a regular basis. that won't stop. that will continue to grow and grow and grow while our finances grow.
and if at any time we get the very clear message from our Lord to stop....we will! we will still continue to give time & money. we will continue to be very grateful for what HE has blessed us with.
after all......all of it is HIS anyway. HE is just putting us in a stewardship position. what will we do with that position?
"Aside from that, Quixtar's view of money, the use of a person's life, vocation, and what is the best way to raise a family are different from mine. BWW's interpretation of Scripture is different from mine, therefore, many perspective that I hold sacred will be different from those who follow Britt's way of thinking. With all these differences, I should have realized long ago that there is very little common ground."
What I meant by this is that these areas--purpose in life, view of money, view of Scripture, how to raise kids--these things are so very important to me. They cut to the core of who I am, and when people have such different views and philosophies, there won't be much of substance or depth that we have in common. Not everyone will agree with me, and I don't expect that.
What I'm trying to say is that I've finally accepted that trying to point out the many facets of Quixtar that bother me is not worth it. Disagreeing is not wrong or bad. It's just the way it is. Believe me, My husband and I know what things we can or cannot bring up with his IBO family. It is easier to simply avoid issues and stay somewhat superficial sometimes. That is hard for me since I tend to confront things that concern me.
Inquiringmind> This is the comment that started me on my rambling.
GI>as far as a job being a temporary position..., it's not a matter of whether you agree or disagree. it's a fact.
I don't see how you can call this a fact. That is your opinion about jobs. Your calling your opinion a fact caused me to realize that debating and discussing issues about quixtar is futile.
There are So many things that are disconcerting to me about Quixtar and BWW that I can't begin to explain them, and the big discovery for me is that it doesn't do any got to discuss them. I call it opinion, AQ calls it fact. What I call critical thinking skills inlaws call negativity. When I suggest a profits/losses monthly evaluation (in order to celebrate getting closer to a goal), it is considered unnecessary and unsupportive. I also think that most households with a budget run with a modicum of business mentality. Money comes in, and there is a plan as to how it is spent and in what things it will be invested. I also come from a farming background and have seen a type of business mentality in practice. ( I know, Quixtar is a different buiness model) I think using the "business mentality " concept to support buying something at 2 to 3 times its worth is simply being manipulative with the term.
I'm getting more and more at peace with the fact that most AQ people totally disagree with me, and I'm simply agreeing to disagree. That is not bad. Sometimes that's the only way to come close to resolving a conflict.
IM,
please do not group me with BWW. i have heard way too many weird & negative stories about them. i'm with WWDB and have had nothing but positive experiences.
they don't condemn people with jobs. they believe (as i do) that your 'purpose' is what GOD has called you to do. that's it. not necessarily to build a stream of income working with quixtar.
i feel the best way to raise a family is biblically based. with mom at home and dad at home as much as work will allow. some ibo's interpret CORE to be going out every night and sharing the dream. well, i personally feel, there has to be balance. kids are not young forever. and they 'will' remember. balance is the key.
you can look up the definition of 'job' in the dictionary. it's often a means of temporary work, per webster. it's not necessarily my opinion.
hey IM, all i'm doing is offering people a way out, a second stream of income, a little extra cash to help pay off debt, a way to get kids out of kiddie jail. that's all very easily obtained by shopping online at cheaper prices and doing some retail. no biggie. especially with the way e-commerce is going. if they tell us no, that they're perfectly happy. fine!
as far as a p&l analysis, i tend to agree with you. i do that. that's what business owners to do. you're perfectly fair in recommending that.
i have looked at this business with 'critical thinking' applied & find it to be the best option for us. jobs don't last. we've gotten let go from too many. they're a big gamble. just like the stock market. you have to be ready to handle the consequences if you take the risk.
as far as prices. i'm still just as baffled as i ever was. i just don't see how it's all so much more expensive. i just know it's a huge pain in my ass every time i have to go to the store. i've always hated it. with or without kids. i buy almost everything online. i love the convenience.
anyway, once again, good luck & God bless you.
Growing,
Thanks for the discussion. It was refreshing to hear that you have a sense of balance in your life and your affiliation with WWDB, and I do mean that sincerely. It is good to see that you run your business with wise business sense and check your p and l monthly.
(BTW, my dictionary's definition of job doesn't include the word "temporary," but that's just my Webster. Mine compares a one's job to one's occupation.)
I do understand what your are saying about the possibilities of getting laid off, especially if it has happened to you. I have no problem with people taking on an extra job to make some extra income, and if it is done honestly, as it seems you are doing, then more power to you.
Thanks for the dialogue.
Interesting to read people's opinion. My job is not 1 in a million. There are less then 1 million people in the city I live in, and there are 3 in my department alone. There are also about 50 people who work in the same office as I do, and thousands all over the world that work in the same company.
Sure jobs are "temporary," but so are businesses. I come from a family of small business people. My parents have owned several through the years, mostly successful. And this was after my father worked at a Fortune-500 company for almost two decades. He was the first to tell me owning a business and working a job are not that different.
You show up, you put in your time, and you get paid. The difference is work offers you vacation time and sick time paid, while your business does not. On the flip side, your job income has a ceiling set by the company, whereas your business income has much higher limits that you set, if there are any limits at all. Now take a look at all those other people writing books about business owner mentality, and ask yourself, what other point besides higher risk/higher reward are all these people making? And are they all not trying to sell their books to you for profit?
Last, I come from a non-religious household, and personally, I'm an atheist. If God has a plan for me, I'll never know because I don't believe God exists, and therefore, it is impossible for Him to have a plan for me! I believe in gathering as much information as I can, and making as rational a decision as possible. And when it comes to Quixtar, the numbers are poor. The average IBO makes $115 a month! If I got a second job, making minimum wage, I could make that with just one 4-hour shift a week! Even those making 3 times average, again, minimum wage, three 4-hour shifts, or two 6-hour shifts a week. (And most jobs in my town start at $6.50/hour because nobody works for minimum wage). Also, I don't believe that residual income exists for too many. You need to continue to work and build if you want to keep getting paid. This is especially true with Quixtar, where 2 out of every 3 IBO's quit within a year, on average. That means if you want a group of 240 IBO's (to make platinum as on average, 1 in 240 IBO's are platinum), you need to recruit 720 IBO's in one year, and significantly more if you plan on going platinum in 2 or more years. In addition, if you just want to maintain said platinumship, you will have to recruit 160 IBO's a year, because that is how many will be quitting their business!
dmm,
Thank you for your opinion. However this is about Family Reunion 2006 and whether or not the cost for such a function is justifiable.
Your "statisics", I feel, are mis-leading as they do not account for other variables that go into developing a stable Platinum business.
I just got done listening to a CD, taped at a function with Doug Weir speaking on it. He talks openly about qualifying at Emerald and falling out of qualification. Most importantly, he talks about what he had to do in order to fix whatever issues caused him to fall out of qualification. The the best of my knowledge, he is a Founders DIA.
Going to function, and listening to CDs in an invaluable part of developing to business. Sure, some are better than others, but they all have benefit, and anyone who tries to assert that they have no value in building a Quixtar/Amway business is mis-leading new IBOs and prospects grossly.
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. All statistics must be looked at with a critical eye. I'm the first to admit it. So, let's delve further into Quixtar.
Ever hear, "Just buy for yourself and teach others to do so?" It's a recipe to lose money. If only other IBO's are buying, the money available for bonuses will be significantly less then the money IBO's spent. In fact, 2/3 less in Quixtar, since the corporation pays about 1/3 of all money spent on IBO bonuses. Sure IBO's might be getting things cheaper (doubtful), but they sure as heck aren't making money (guaranteed).
Let's also look at the tools. They are, in general, a giant money making machine for the big pins. Want to know approximately how much they are making on a conference? Call the hotel where your next conference is going to be and tell them you are doing research for a conference you are holding the same time as your Quixtar conference for next year. Find out how much rooms cost, how much food costs, and how much conference facilities are. Now, figure out how much you and all the other IBO's are spending, and figure out the difference.
For years, big pins denied making profits on tools. It took the internet, books, and other critics to out the big pins until the mountain of evidence against them was too big to deny. These same big pins finally now claim they make money off of tools, but has the scam changed at all? The answer is no.
The number of IBO's in North America has been constant over 35 years. The ratio of pin holders to IBO's have remained constant throughout the years. Quixtar/Amway has had slow growth, and even some negative growth, and as a business in North America, it is stagnating (Asian sales represent Alticor's biggest growth market). The average IBO is still making no more then $115/month, spending $300/month on purchases, and another $100 - $200 on tools. Do AmQuix's statistics lie? I don't think so.
And if you think Family Reunion is worth your money, try this. Count the number of people on stage, and then the number of people watching. When you go next year, do the same thing, and try and remember how many different faces you see on stage, and how many different faces you see in the audience.
Underneath all of this discussion are these basic polarities:
pro-quix: Regular jobs are not stable, lucrative, or personally rewarding enough to take care of me and mine the rest of my life. I need Quixtar to pull me out of the job rut and make me rich, rich, rich. It's a sure thing!
anti-quix: If you're looking for more stability, hold onto the job you have, or educate yourself and find one that better suits your talents and skills. Quixtar is a business (no skills required) based on selling products and a system to yourself and others that is every bit as unstable as a temporary or seasonal job.
All of this back and forth wears me out. It's dream or reality, take your pick. And yes, you can dream, but dream within your means.
Critical thinking has indeed become a lost art.
dmm,
so, you're an athiest, right? so that means you believe in no higher power. you are the higher power. no wonder you're so negative.
if what you stated in your comments was accurate & true. you're right, it would be a losing proposition.
however, you are stating numbers without information & facts behind them. yes, the 'average' ibo makes approx. $115 per month, per quixtar. first of all, the average ibo takes into account 'any' kind of activity. including going to a meeting. it does not state that all ibo's are purchasing from themselves. or that they are core. if that were the case, the average would be a much higher minimum. you're throwing this number around, dmm, without giving all the facts behind it.
secondly, the training & support organization i'm associated with teaches retail. and lots of it. profit. they teach that our goal as ibo's should be to make sure our new downline is making a minimum of an additional $300-500 per month within 90 days. this does not include attending a major function. it does not include a bunch of cd's or books. that's for the people who want to build this as their own business.
is the turnover high? absolutely! just as in any other mlm and just about any kind of commission based job. you will find that most people want the rewards but are not willing to do what it takes to get it. that's a fact. i've seen enough in the time i've been in. people complaining, bitching & moaning about not having enough time & money. they sign up. we then say 'let's get to work & make you some money!' and we roll our sleeves up and offer times & dates to help them. we offer our tools. we offer our brochures. we offer our sample products and most importantly, we offer our time. very very few have ever actually taken us up on it.
what that tells us is that they are not 'willing' to do what it takes. period.
dmm, be sure to get your facts & numbers straight before you go on a rant.
truebeliever,
dream...but dream 'within your means'????????????? are you kidding me????????????????? that's the problem, right there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i couldn't have said it any better.
i don't know if you were trying to lay out an objective view of both sides but if that was your purpose...you blew it. not real objective.
by the way, what does 'dream within your means' actually mean???
You are right, growingibo, we do not know the entire truth behind the numbers. We do know that there was at least one ED making over $1,000,000 a year. Others too are making way more than average, skewing the numbers. The fact is we don't have enough information, and Quixtar doesn't provide us with enough information to get a true picture. They give us enough, as required by law, to debate, but they let us fill in the blanks.
And to me, those blanks are filled with hundreds, if not thousands of horror stories throughout the year. People who contribute to this and other Quixtar discussions who have done the work, put in the time, only to not see the results as promised. People who have lost thousands of dollars and hurt relationships. I've been discussing Quixtar on the net for nearly six years, and you, growingibo, are but another fired up IBO who probably won't be around here in a year or two (if not less) because the reality is $115/month average is closer to your reality then you want to believe.
And yes, teaching retail is a nice departure from what was taught in the past. But is it reality? Reality says, from Quixtar, the average IBO has only .23 member/client. That means, all things equal, IBO's buy more then 75% of all Quixtar items sold. And of course, all things are not equal, since members/clients do not have the same monetary incentive to purchase IBO's do. And what about you, growingibo? What was your last bonus check, your PV/BV number, and the percentage of it that came from member/client sales?
Also, my atheism has nothing to do with me be negative about Quixtar, or me being a pessimistic person overall (which I'm not). My experiences, dealings, and own analysis of the Quixtar opportunity has lead me to believe it is not only a bad deal for me, but it was/is a bad deal for everyone I've known who became an IBO, and is a bad deal for the majority of people who try. Sure there is a niche market for the products, but you will most likely be better off, financially speaking, getting a part time job and working that 10 hours/week then you would working Amway/Quixtar 10 hours/week. Again, just my opinion. Show me a better deal, back it up with facts, and I'll be much more positive about it.
Last, I find it interesting how much IBO's assume about me. I think Quixtar is a bad deal, and I'm an atheist, which is why I'm a pessamist? I'm negative about one thing, with facts, figures, and anecdotes to support my views. That does not make me a pessismist. In fact, I'm often rather upbeat. I like my job/career, love my wife, and have a beautiful child. In fact, my life is pretty good, and while I often wonder why I even post on sites like this, I feel that if I can help one person to critically think about Quixtar, and possibly help them avoid the pitfalls, financial troubles, and relationship problems my friends have had because of Quixtar, then it may have been worth it.
what that tells us is that they are not 'willing' to do what it takes. period.
This is probably because they realize that the time and money invested is not worth it. That's not the same as not willing to "do what it takes," I'm inferring that those who aren't willing to do what it takes are weak, lazy or apathetic. I may be assuming too much, so correct me if I am.
I've seen the plan numerous times. I know how much time it takes, and it is definately not worth it. It is too life-consuming. I'm not interested in a job is sales.
Also, as far as I'v e ever seen, IBOs pay Quixtar for their purchases. My inlaws don't have a vitamin or energy drink factory in their back yard, so I think it is pretty safe to say that they are buying thier items from Quixtar. If they buy enough stuff or sell enough to others, Quixtar gives them a percentage back as an incentive. That is completely different from "buying from yourself.' But I must add, that phrases does sopuind empowering, doesn't it? "Buying from yourself" It's ingenius, really.
Sorry for all they typos!
I mean THE typos!!!
Here you go, IBO. Here's one to grow on. Dreaming within your means is kind of like living within your means, except on the level of the human psyche.
Example. I enjoy painting and drawing. I am somewhat accomplished, but I realize that I was not born a DaVinci, that all the practice in the world will not bring me in line with his genius, at least not in this lifetime. I choose not to delude myself into thinking I will make millions with my paintings. I make money with my art on a much smaller scale, and I love what I am doing. Same thing with my writing. I have been published over the years, but I'm not going to get a Pulitzer anytime soon.
If you are not athletic, have absolutely no interest or talent for skiing, it is stupid to consider yourself a shoo-in for the Olympic downhill team, based on the fact that you can sort of visualize yourself zooming down that mountain and winning a gold.
If you have zero interest in sales, no understanding of the nuances of marketing or business, no talent in persuading people--why the heck would you think you could make a million bucks buying stuff off the internet and suckering other people to do that, too?
Dreaming is swell. But manifesting those dreams in reality involves a lot more than the paint-by-numbers, self-help crapola Quixtar offers up as "training," and a shaky business that shows little return for the work and effort expended.
And dmm, you are making great good sense, and I don't care who or what you believe in. I don't pretend I can weigh people's souls and find them wanting, like some of these thumpers on here.
Hello, I am a 100PV IBO. I went to Family Reunion and it cost me about $250 total for all expences. It was well worth it. I keep hearing about "the average" IBO. The real average IBO makes no money and has no one in there business at all, other IBOs or customers. The number is an average. People don't make it in this business being average. I will get a check this month of a little more than $10 bucks. Am I discouraged about that? Of corse not. The products I purchased were all edibles and vitamins that I really enjoy. My sister also made some purchases of diapers and a few other baby needs. So since I already have 1 customer who is making purchases, I'm above average right?:) I didn't used to get anything back from McD's or Wal-Mart. After delivery cost of my products I was still well under the retail price, so hooray for me:)
I am not religious and I think most religions are more of a myth, and I don't care what the beliefs of my upline's are and they don't ask of mine. I am however very thankful that this opportunity has come into my life. I was a block masonry loborer when the opportunity was shown to me and if you know what that is you can acurately bet that I hated my job. I could have made good or even great money doing it. But there was no retirement plan in sight. I looked at my co-workers, most of them about 45 and feelin about 65, were in the "norm". They had been doing it their whole lives and had no end in sight.
What this business offers, to those willing to put in the effort, is a 2-5 year plan to create real reisidual wealth. And even if it took 10, 15, or even 20 years to get where you need to be in this business to make a six figure income. It beats working 20, 30, or 40+ years to have nothing.
Also, if I were not to build this business and quit tomorow, I would not have lost a thing. For the life lessons and business principles I have aquired through the mentorship are priceless.
I am very glad that you love your jobs. But if they didn't pay you would you still do it? I don't want to offend anyone. This is just my opinion from the pro-quix side of the fence.
Truebeliever
The dream is not of your dream job(artist, athlete, ect..), it's your life dreams. What was your dream when you were 10. Not your dream job, but your dream goals of family, lifestyle, time, ect. Was it to be working or did you dream of retiring young.
I didn't know anything about marketing, I-commerce or even how to talk to someone I didn't know, but for my simple dream of being a stay-at-home dad, I am willing to learn anything I have to.
To All:
TampaIBO demonstrated exactly why most people do this business. First: to reach their life goals, but Second, (and in the long run more important): to see hope and life brought into people so they can say that they can accomplish what they wanted, and they are willing to do the work for it.
So, everyone has a choice: do i want to believe as "truebeliever" and dmm believe, ie, a job is all i need to accomplish my dreams "within my means" or do i take advantage of the wonderful opportunities we all have and seek out those dreams people like truebeliever and dmm think impossible? I am a fan of movies like Charlie and the Chocolate Family, and the Aviator, and i enjoy books of imagination and dreams and i more enjoy making the same things come true in real life.
Perhaps I should use the word vocation instead of the dreaded word job, or even better, life purpose, to make myself clear.
Tampa--When I was 10, I had such an imagination that I wanted to grow up and write stories that other children would be able to read, like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. (Brad, I cannot believe we have this book in common.) Money was not the secret ingredient to my dreams, it was creativity--wait, that would be the secret ingredident to dreaming big dreams, now wouldn't it? And guess what? I did it.
If you want to talk "life dreams," I would like to think I made a difference to someone by being here on this earth, that my children will grow up to be good men, and that I will be remembered fondly when I am gone. I do not believe people will remember the car I drove, or the humongous diamond ring I wore, unless I leave it to someone in a will.
You all keep equating money with freedom, but you are really letting this ideal of money hamper your freedon in the here and now.
truebeliever: "You all keep equating money with freedom, but you are really letting this ideal of money hamper your freedon in the here and now. "
B> First, i think we all have more in common than some like to believe, or give credit. BUt addressing this statement... i do not believe money = freedom, HOWEVER, i do believe money is a huge component of it because it can been the roadblock to prevent people from journeying towards or reaching their dreams/potential, and further, it could be an integral part in making dreams come true. (world travel, generational charitable trusts, etc)
Creativity and imagination bless the mind with dreams of greatness... worldly goods/pleasure provide stumbling blocks... the goal of myself as an IBO (shared with most on my team) is to get money out of the way by providing a passive source of funds so that you may journey towards your dreams less incumbered. ANd i am happy i chose a way to create passive income that can also help other people. (other choices: stock market: someone has to lose for others to win; or the path i was on to corporate CEO/VP: time becomes the limiting factor)
Brad, if I have done nothing else, I have inspired you to compose more heartfelt. insightful, and appealing comments.
And you are correct in stating that money can set a roadblock in one's personal journey. But could the mindset that you will "never have enough" money to do what you would like to do set up a similar roadblock? Would you agree that you can impose limits on yourself, on your freedom to experience things right now by thinking things like "I don't have enough money to travel, now, I'll do it later"?
I would suggest,finally returning to the original content of this blog post a mile above me here, that the $440 spent on the business event weekend that was so unsatisfying to Preston, could have easily gone elsewhere, perhaps toward airfare or travel expenses to visit a family member or friend. I know, because I spent $400 and flew to Oregon in May and had a wonderful visit with the same friend whom I helped escape from Quixtar a year ago. It's not always the lack of money that affects our personal freedom, it's the way we think about money and use the money we have that does.
So Preston had a bad time. Who's to say he would have had a better time doing something else with the money. It cost me a total of about $250 dollars. That's $100 for the ticket, about $35 for gas, about, $75 total for food and drinks(including my XS) and a couple of really nice shirts. I had a blast aside from the function. It was an awesome road trip with great friends who are positive people who don't chase a dollar bill. And then there was the function. It was awesome. I was able to get personal time with many people doing very well in this business, including my upline diamond at one point. He was very humble and very real. He didn't try selling us on some tapes or anything like that, he just spoke from the heart and gave everyone some wise words. It is still a business paid on volume. You don't get any money for having a thousand IBOs and no volume. The entire experiance was amazing. I can't wait to go to the Fall conferance.
truebeliever,
like brad said, i think we all have more in common than we care to admit.
if we continued on with our regular jobs & no other secondary income, we are barely paying our bills. even if we live below our means and put a tiny, little bit away each month....how many years must we live that way before we have enough to buy back some time?
and let me throw a few real scenario's at you that happened to us:
-BOTH parents in hospital on death beds at same time (they both recovered within 6 months)
-death of two uncles & a grandparent, within months of each other
-former employer filing (unjustified) lawsuit (we won)
-lost jobs out of the blue, therefore, lost benefits
-broken arm (no insurance) - cost about $8000.00 total
-severe damage to our home due to weather
also consider, on two regular incomes (kiddies in kiddie jail), trying to help in these situations:
-aunt having to go to nursing home at thousands of dollars per day
-same with a grandma
-sister having to take care of her step-grandchildren so they don't end up in the foster care system
-either mom having a relapse & ending up needing 24 hour care or ending up in nursing home at thousands per day/week
-another aunt with cancer
-nephew with cancer
-uncle with cancer
all this has happened within the past 3-4 years. tell me, truebeliever, what do we do? just take care of ourselves and say 'poor mom, poor sis, poor auntie' 'oh well, we don't have any extra money to help out or buy groceries and we can't take off of work 'cuz then i won't get paid that day' 'i'll just pray and watch from the sidelines helplessly'. or, do you go and 'beg for money' from the church? or a local food shelf?
do you see our point? those are our options. having our own business, our own online mall, presents us options. more control.
it's not all about the money, truebeliever.
TrueBeliever:"that the $440 spent on the business event weekend that was so unsatisfying to Preston, could have easily gone elsewhere, perhaps toward airfare or travel expenses to visit a family member or friend."
B> in hindsight, and in his case, yes, it could have been. But did he know he was going to quit? One must be careful when playing "Monday morning quarterback".
While a vacation with friends is enjoyable and rewarding in its own right, i side with growingibo and question: what does that vacation do for my future children and family? This is the common breaking point, IMO, for those that make it and those that dont: what are you willing to give up to get your goal? First, is your goal worth it? There is a constant battle... i say i want a large house with no mortgage. Many on this site would say that it is materialistic. Do i believe them, or do i hold on to my dream that it WILL provide willable shelter to my family, equity, a good neighborhood with good schools, unincumbered space for growth and all stages of children, place for gatherings and parties, and all other intagibles with the seemingly "materialist" large house? Once i have held on to the dream... is it large enough to focus on one vehicle at a time to reach it? At times, whether this vehicle be stock investing, part-time job, or business... time, and money, will have to be sacrificed somewhere. The only way that sacrifice will not be worth it is if i don't make that chosen vehicle work. Of the 3, i chose business because of the level of control i have. Stocks are up to economic/political/3dparty control, part time job has lay-offs and relatively inflexible committed hours.
Never-the-less, this added 1000ft to the stack a mile high of posts was to merely point out that truebeliever hit on a very crucial fact regarding the way people value things -- is that vacation now your dream, or is it something that can, and might be, sacrificed/invested for the accomplishment of a larger dream? By people saying it is wrong to sacrifice it, they are indeed become dream stealers... well poisoners... crabs in bucket... whatever tape-speak you want to apply.
And growingibo- that was an incredibly powerful post, thank you. And i dont believe that power was directed at any one person, but it is important for everyone to consider. What will You do in those situations? Not all of us are blessed with the "dime a dozen" job DMM claims is so readily available. This might be a stretch for some, but i do not believe the one that stretches farther and for more in life is the selfish one... i believe the one that sits comfortably in their own situation THINKING that is all they need to accomplish and prepare is selfish because their potential is not used to the full benefit for their family or for mankind...(not directed at anyone in particular, btw)
Sorry for your family troubles, growingibo. We've all been there at some point (lost both my in-laws within a 14 month time frame a few years ago). And I think we all understand where you come from, especially when finances are a concern, and family is in trouble. But the question isn't the desire, it is whether or not Quixtar delivers on what it promises.
And no, Brad, my job isn't a "dime a dozen," and it wasn't just handed to me. I went to school, got a degree, and toiled at a dead-end job for a few years, gaining experience and contacts, before I landed my current job. And I also tried direct selling (non-MLM), and owning my own traditional business. Valuable experience, but not valuable in the bank account, which is why I don't continue.
Now, back to Quixtar, the first question I have is how truthful are the promises of residual income? Spin it any way you want, but 2 out of every 3 IBO's that you and your downline sign up will quit before they renew again. That means if you have 300 people in your downline, you will have to recruit 200 every year just to maintain your level. And that takes work, which doesn't speak to residual.
The second question is, how much free time do you want, and how much free time will you really have if (and this is a huge if), you are one of the rare ones that make it diamond? For me, I'm not financially well-to-do and would like to have more money, but I'm not willing to trade more time for the opportunities that have been presented to me. I also don't see diamonds truly living the lifestyle they profess. I see them working long hours conseling downline, speaking at conventions, overseeing their tools/tape business, leaving messages on Kate, and travelling around. What good is a huge house if you are never home? And remember, does this business truly create residual income with such a huge turnover rate? These diamonds with thousands of people in their downline have to work, lest they fall out of qualification, which has happened to a number of diamonds over the years. I suggest reading "Beyond the Smoke and Mirrors," even if you don't believe the numbers, at least you will get a glimpse into a diamond's schedule.
Last, with Quixtar, you have to look at who it benefits, and who it hurts. The reality is, even if half of all active IBO's do zero, and it doubles the average income of IBO's that do work, that is still a paltry $230/month. You can make more by working two 6-hour shifts at minimum wage, and not have any business expenses! If you making $400/month, and have $150 of expenses/month, That guy working 12 hours/week at minimum wage is still doing better! At the same time, there are plenty of Amway/Quixtar horror stories out there of people losing tens of thousands of dollars, friends, and family, and never turning a profit despite years in the system. There is no denying that through the years, Amway/Quixtar has a bad rap, that is well earned, in my opinion.
To conclude yet another diatribe, dreaming is great. Wanting more is natural and should be encouraged. Quixtar, as a vehicle to attain dreams of wanting more, just doesn't cut the mustard.
Ahhh...an oldie but a goodie - the guilt trip tangent.
Here's one for the IBO's who still are at their awful J.O.B.s
Quit your JOB - right now. Stop bastardizing your JOB by having them subsidize your "business" by providing you with Insurance, paying Soc. Security taxes, Sick & Vacation time, and a steady paycheck. Stand on your own two feet.
Talk about selfish...
My mom was an IBO about 10+ years ago. She tells me she lost about $2000. She said it didn't work for her and it really didn't, BUT she never tried doing the work. She bought some products(I've even had Shaq bars.. Ewww.) and went to a couple functions but she never talked to anyone about the business. This IS a word of mouth advertising business. It doesn't grow through osmosis. And if I have to give up some time with my girl and some frivaless(probably spelled wrong) vacations to have lot's of time with her later and the ability to live life as a vacation(not working), then I will do what it takes. I KNOW I will do well, and I know it will cost me some money now, but it is delayed gratification and I'm in it for the long run. I don't think I've ever heard of a business that you don't lose money in in the beginning. I am not going to sweat a few hundred or even a couple thousand dollars to get my business going. I KNOW my return will be great. And as for the diamonds schedule, they don't wake up to any alarm clocks for one, and they get to decide when they want to work, and what does that entail? A couple of functions a year and some awesome leadership trips... Shux. And as for the tools, they're swiching all tool orders to online distribution anyway.
Well sorry for ranting but if you really think these diamonds are leading such troubled lives than why do such successful people quit there "wonderful" well paying jobs and never look back.(and most people retire at emerald)
an "actual" ibo (you should change your alias, by the way),
no one is "bastardizing" their job. they just don't want to have to do it forever. or lose it, and not have a backup plan. that's all. chill out!
as far as taxes, ssi, etc. they have earned the benefits and should be paying taxes. just like any other working american out there.
why don't you go pick on the perfectly capable people who are sucking on the teat of our welfare system? i know a few...
Seems like you bought the whole enchilada, Tampa, hook, line, and stinker. How many tapes a day do you listen too?
The fact is, I've heard or read exactly what you are saying, Tampa, almost verbatim, by dozens of other new IBO's. Most of which haven't hung around that long. And none of which have made it to diamond in 3-5 years, and doubtful any has made it to platinum. So diamonds don't wake up to an alarm? Big deal. They probably can't wake up early because they are up all night building their business. Remember, diamonds have to keep motivating the masses, most of whom are busy during normal working hours (because of their jobs). The diamonds do make good money, but they certainly trade their time for it, just like everyone else!
As for businesses losing money in the beginning, that is true. The question is, when do they start making a profit? Do you have a business plan, Tampa? Do you have a stop-date, i.e. a date you have set that says if you aren't profitable by such and such a date you will either revise your business plan or quit? Do you have 3-month, 6-month, 1-year, and 2-year projections?
Last question, Tampa. What makes you different then everyone else? Remember, statistically, only 1 in 14,000 will be a diamond. Next time you are at a convention, look around you. Ask yourself, how many of those faces near you have the exact same thoughts, verbatim, that you have; that they are different, and they have what it takes to peservere and become diamond. Now, statistically, ask yourself, can both yourself, and all those around you actually attain that goal?
Thanks, "growing", I'll keep my screen name. I will change it when my IBO-ship expires at the end of the year. I'm sorry if you feel picked on.
Couldn't handle the challenge, so change the subject to welfare recipients? I was hoping for something a bit more original.
BTW - that challenge comes directly from Double Diamond Fred Harteis. But, hey, 3-year IBO's who can't pass 600PV, inside people, and "growing" IBO's know more about the biz than he does, right???
Don't worry, I know how you feel, I felt the same way, this is what I found... after earning the "privilege" to "work the tables" and watching Platinums be nothing more than unpaid servants ,and then thank said Diamond for the privilege to edify, let's just say my view of the business soured.
You'd have to be an "Actual IBO" to expirience that.
About real businesses such as McDonald's. People keep saying they lose money for several years until they profit. That's not true, they start making a profit when they open their doors and start selling burgers. Yes, they make take a couple of years to make up the initial investment but they start making profits when they start selling their goods.
In quixtar you have an ongoing set of expenses (Kate, Standing order, functions). The problem is that most people, for whatever reason are not capable of building a large enough downline to become profitable through moving more volume so they end up losing money in this manner.
Slowly and sometimes painfully.
As I read the comments and think back on my experiences I ponder the fate of " The Children Of The CORE". (CORE being totally plugged into the system). These are the kids who have been told by their parents that life will be perfect when they get to be diamonds.
Their vacations are the functions, they often have babysitters while their parents are showing the plan or attending meetings, they rarely have dinner as a whole family, and it is rare for both parents to attend their sporting events, recitals, etc.. I know this, because I've seen it many times over the years as a teacher both in and out of Am/Quix.
These kids ARE being hurt. Kids don't care about money, diamonds or having a zillion cars. All kids want is attention and love. And if they don't get it I can almost guarantee that they are being emotionally hurt and, depending on where they are developmentally, becoming resentful.
So how long do these "Children of the CORES" have to wait to get their parents back? Will it be five years-the promised time to get to diamond? Will it be longer if the parents are totally plugged in and keep thinking it's just around the corner?
Stop and think about how much growth happens in five years. A kid goes from first to fifth grade in five years. A Kid goes from being born to the first day of kindergarten.
Just stuff to ponder when you go to that function instead of saving the money for a family vacation. You may say, "But the function only cost me "250".
Isn't that the cost of a great day at the local amusement park for your family?
Had a friend fully sold out to the system back in 1993 or so. Well, his baby daughter is now in high school and they are no where closer to diamond than they were way back when.
Pretty sad if you ask me.
actualibo, are you quitting the business? did you get your money back for tools, functions, etc?
TampaIBO:
Stay focused! You're doing the right thing. None of these critics are going to pay any of your bills.
I live in the DC area. I don't see many monuments built to remember critics. Only people with vision.
I would say that along with learning from your support system tools, that you also take the time to educate yourself with basic business skills, such as accounting and money management.
Also develop your professional sales skills as this will aid you in becoming a more profitable IBO.
The statistics that DMM quotes make sense but he is using them to misrepresent the opportunity.
ie. "only 1 in 14,000 will be a diamond"
There is no way to see what those 13,999 other people were doing to build their business. How many of them quit within the first week, let alone the first year?
There things going on within the corp. as we speak that are solidifying Quixtar's future as E-Commerce giant.
Its easy to quit and complain, its much more admirable to take responsibility and find solutions.
dmm,
ouch! a little sensitive, are we??? ;-)
to what challenge do you refer? quitting my job? if i could quit my job right now, why would i need a backup plan like quixtar? duh!!!!! better think before you write next time.
also dmm, maybe 1 in 14,000 goes diamond every few years but of the other 13,999, how many are making an 'extra' $200K, $150K, $100K, $80K, $50K or even $25K a year? they may not be diamond but it doesn't mean that they're not making money & making a 'huge' difference in their's and other peoples lives!
joecool,
you think mc d's doesn't have ongoing, monthly expenses? um....electricity? garbage? employees????? building rental fees??? think about it jc. i'd say their expenses are monumental compared to being a quixtar affiliate. and you're right about some people not 'being able to sponsor'. some need to work on their self-esteem & self-confidence. i sure did. it's been 3 years and i'm just now feeling really good & strong to be able to prospect someone my ambition level or above (i'm pretty ambitious). some need to work on their people skills. some need to work on their appearance (like some of the old amway people still wearing their hair just a tad too long & the suits just a little off-sized). well, that's what the books, cd's & association is for. to learn. to build up personally & professionally. i spent many years in corporate sales and i've learned and grown more in the past 3 years through the tools & training than in over 15 years of corporate b s. but that's simply my experience.
robbie & jc,
i tend to agree on the whole kid thing. there has 'got' to be a balance. the kiddo's are only young once! my spouse and i have had several discussions concerning this. that's why we've done alot 'with' our kids. we really have to watch it though. one night a week. that's pretty much it. three weekends a year. otherwise, we're all one big happy family! :-)
tampa ibo & coolbreeze,
rock on!!!!!!!! keep on keeping on! stay the course & work your business the wise way. we know where this biz and this industry is going and we've got a piece of it...yee hah! :-)
wise advice for tampa, coolbreeze.
see you guys on the beaches of the world!
Not sensitive, growingibo, just miffed on why I come back here and make the same arguments year after year to a whole new group of "growingibo's."
I'm not saying you do or don't need a back-up plan, growing (I don't know your finances), all I'm saying on pure odds, you have a better chance at going to Vegas to make money then you do making money at Quixtar. The average active Quixtar IBO makes $115/month, but do you know what the average is when you remove all platinums and above? $88.35!
Are IBO's making an extra $25,000 or up? Sure, but it is significantly less then 1% of all IBO's! (Average platinum income is about $25,000/year) And again, only 1 in 240 IBO's ever make it to platinum.
As for rotating pin winners, sure that happens. But think about this. The number of IBO's in North America has remained constat for about 35 years. The ratio of diamonds to IBO's has also remained constant in this time frame 1:14,000. Doesn't that mean that for every new diamond that breaks, one falls out of qualification?
If you need extra income, I suggest a part time job. I know in my town, minimum wage is hardly paid, and most part time jobs start at $6/hour. Work just two six-hour shifts a week, and you will average about $300/month extra. Over 2 1/2 times better then the average IBO, and about 3 1/2 times better then your non pinned (below platinum) IBO!
dmm,
get a part time job, huh? ok. then what of the kiddo's? you guys are busting ibo's butts 'cuz we go show the plan 1-2 nights a week (usually about the time the kiddo's are going to bed!) and you complain that we're never with our kids.
well, hmmmm...if i go get a part time job, that's MORE time away from my kids AND my spouse. it's hours i don't get to set. i'm depending on my employer for level of pay and # of hours & times i work.
hmmmm....OR....work my own biz like it's a part time job and work it WITH my kiddo's in tow and have them as part of the excitement. determine my own hours and, depending on how i work my biz, create my own level of potential income (ever hear of working retail through biz to biz, gift incentive albums, sports & nutrition, e-spring, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.)
see the difference, dmm?????
Great point!
There are many times when my wife and kids come with me on plans. They may go run errands while I do my thing or they may attend (if we don't have a babysitter).
I've also brought them to functions with a babysitter to watch them during sessions. That's my choice.
Part time, minimum wage job, 10 hours a week = guaranteed +$200/month.
Average IBO, working 10+ hours a week = $115/month.
Average non pin (below platinum) IBO working 10+ hours a week = $88/month.
Sure, the potential is there for you to make more in Quixtar. But how likely is it? And can it truly be done in 10 hours a week, in 2 - 5 years?
Based on pure probability, you have a better odds in Vegas!
Also, remember, the person working the p/t minimum wage job has less expenses. If IBO's are spending $100/month on tools, they are actually losing money!
Once again, the number of IBO's in North America has remained constant the last 35 years, and so has the ratio of pin winners. If you are the less then 1/2 of 1 percent that makes it to platinum, it was because someone else fell out of qualification. Statistically speaking, someone else will eventually go platinum, meaning you run the risk of falling out!
I offer a part time minimum wage job out there because growingibo needs extra money. Assuming she is making 3 times the non-pin average, and has only $100/month in expenses, she is still worse off then the person working minimum wage!
dmm,
didn't you read my comments? as usual, the critic's response does not address the ibo's comments. he just continues on the rant that started the whole thing.
anyway, i make around $500-800/month. my expenses are less than $175/month. that leaves me a nice chunk of profit. remember, i do this one day a week (if that) but have been consistent.
also, dmm, one thing that truly concerns me: why is it you guys think every ibo is 'on the system'? you don't have to be to make money!!! you can earn really good side money with very little monthly expense (ie: website at less than $50/mo.)
again, read my previous post(s) - you might catch it the 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th time around.
by the way, what makes you think i'm a 'she'?
growing IBO, good for you if you're making money in quixtar.
Can I ask what PV level you are?
Part time, minimum wage job, 10 hours a week = guaranteed +$200/month.
Average IBO, working 10+ hours a week = $115/month.
Average non pin (below platinum) IBO working 10+ hours a week = $88/month.
DMM wrote:
Sure, the potential is there for you to make more in Quixtar. But how likely is it? And can it truly be done in 10 hours a week, in 2 - 5 years?
Based on pure probability, you have a better odds in Vegas!
I'm so sick of this spin. You can't really compare the two, especially using that stat. How many part time jobs will pay someone $200/month if they only showed up once or twice.
That's what your $115 average IBO stat means.
You have to sell products and you have to talk to other people about the opportunity if your going to make some money.
I've passed the average IBO figure, and even at the small level of business I currently hold, I can teach my group that they're either doing what it takes or not.
The thing is some people still won't do more even when they know they're not cutting it.
growingibo, if you are selling products to non-distributors, good for you. Good luck. But don't expect to grow rich from doing so. You may make a nice side income, but it is doubtful you will ever be able to replace your full time job income, unless you work Quixtar full time.
If your income is coming from downline purchases, I would suggest being careful. Remember, on average, IBO's quit at a very high rate, and you will end working just to maintain what you are making, rather then growing.
I assume you are on tools, growingibo, because you talk/write like someone who is. Not as bad as tampaibo, but it certainly sounds like you believe that you can build life-long lasting residual income doing part-time work. To me, that is classic tapespeak. The numbers prove this to be a pipe dream, and no matter what anyone says, the facts do count.
As for assuming you are male or female, I do no such thing. It is the convention to use the masculine pronoun in English when gender is uncertain, but in my job, our customers are majority female, so I often use the feminine pronoun when gender is uncertain. Just habit to do so now when I write elsewhere. Sorry if I offended you.
Last, CoolBreeze, your last post makes little sense. If I have a part-time job, only show up twice, I'm not going to get paid for any work I did not do. If I am an IBO and do little or no work, similarly, I'm not going to get any money/paid for what I did not do. Only college football players from Oklahoma seem to get paid for work they don't do nowadays.
no offense taken, dmm.
what exactly is 'tapespeak'? i've seen it referenced and i realize that the critics call comments 'tapespeak when they reference doing something out of the norm or doing something beyond what is expected of one. or if an ibo quotes a successful and/or famous individual.
but that's not "tapespeak" unless it has directly to do with quixtar. if it's just a positive, encouraging, uplifting statement, that would be more accurately referred to as positive self-talk. this is of course, taught and used in many professions, industries, organization & just plain life, throughout the world. the whole 'tapespeak' accusation is becoming really old.
i do retail and work with people we sponsor. my main focus is showing people the at-home shopping service. save money & time by buying from home. i first ask to 'earn' their business. then, i go through demos, prices & time it takes them to shop. then we review their receipts and hours shopping in the past month then show them how they can make a small change & get so much more for their money (including time).
everyone complains how busy & broke they are. all the time! but they still spend literally, an absolute minimum of 4-8 hours a week just shopping!!! that blows my mind! why not redirect those hours into more productive (or playful or relaxing) activities?
we are also sponsoring lots. we have no problem with that. with the webtour & the attraction of our websites and the phenomenal products as well as the opportunity to either make a little extra cash OR grow your own million dollar business....it's not difficult. the possibilities are there.
yes, i believe this is an opportunity to make a lot of money or a little money. depends on what you want to do and how you want to do it. a little extra cash = very part time. a lot of extra money = a lot more time & effort.
don't you guys understand that not every ibo is going to dive in head first, full body following....like you guys did? it seems as though either you don't have first hand experience & you don't know what you're talking about (josh) or, you went 'all in' as though you were a cultist! give me a break! that's your own fault!
the most successful ibo's will do what the successful ibo's teach. CORE. consistently. STP ONE to TWO times a week. if you do more, that's up to YOU! buy from yourself. but don't buy pv just to move up!!! retail. word of mouth. pretty simple. ONE tape/cd a day, if you have time for it! now, this is not a requirement for eagle. it's a suggestion. i listen a little every time i'm in my car (or i have Christian music or kiddy music when i have my family with me). book - 15 minutes a day! that's it! premier membership - your own personal website for less than $50.00 a month!!! only 3 weekend functions a year! the 4th is a one-nighter! 3-4 meetings a month. these could be the nights you 'show the plan'. be home the other 20+ nights!
i think i've made that point well enough. :-)
as far as residual income...i'm not so naive as to think that once i reach my diamond or above goal, i can totally quit, move to a remote island and keep getting my checks. obviously, i will want to continue to work with and speak to and mentor our ibo's who are striving to attain their goals. if you expect the checks, you need to put in the work. but you need to remember dmm & jc, that most diamonds put in 20 hours or less a MONTH! the rest of the time is with their family!
not everybody is out to quit their job. some (alot) just want extra income. some just want a way to retire. please tell me how you could do that with a part time job.
this is a great option for that.
i realize i have come on strong with this but the 'issues' that i may have possibly been concerned with, seem to be being addressed by this & other, website(s) as well as quixtar & the los's.
i'm fine with that.
thanks for your time.
growing ibo sounds eerily like "Tony".
jc,
aren't you going to address the questions?
by the way, i saw how another commenter was referenced to be 'tony'.....i can tell you truthfully, i'm not him. :-)
growing ibo,
What you posted in pretty reasonable. It's not how most IBOs run their biz.
My problem really is the lack of disclosure about the tools business. In other words if you tell prospects up front all of the expenses of being core, and that upline will be making a handsome profit from it, I have no objection.
One last thing though, even if tools money is disclosed, no one has shown that there is a written contract to guarantee that tools money is available at various levels in the biz.
So when the disclosure of tool profits problem is solved...then what?
What will "CRITICS who quit because it was too hard" have to complain about?
The cost of being CORE is optional, and pales in comparison to any other traditional small business.
So even if there is a written contract about tools, if someone never reaches the qualified PL level or above, they don't deserve the money anyway.
A written contract makes the offer a legitimate one coolbreeze, otherwise it's just hot air.
I guess I don't see what the issue is, you got you money back in full. So is this a positive comment about the customer service of Duncan Motivation or a negative comment?
I have a question for you: What has changed in your life since the time you decided not to go to Duncan Reunion 2006?
The issue here is that your "upline" probably asked you if you want to learn how to make money with this and to that you probably answered yes. Then your upline probably said something like "would it be wise to just start out guessing what to do or get around people who have actually done it?" to that you probably answered with a common sense yes.
You placed your order for the tickets from this obvious pressure from said upline and then a couple days went by and you chickened out and got your money back.
Your upline probably told you there was 100% money back guarantee and you received the check back to prove it, your upline probably said nothing will change in your life unless you invest your time into learning more than you currently know and he was right a second time.
Do tell, how much better off does the next 5 years of your life look because you decided not to go? Here is a clue, look at your supervisor that has been in the job 5 years longer than you.
Yikes, doing what you are currently doing is free and your proving that you have gotten what you have paid for….do tell us all how we can be as successful as you!!!
I know this thread is rather old and dead but I cant help but relate my experiances in Amway/Quixtar.. Im sure most of your upling refuse to use the dreaded "A" word in fear you might go running away, which exactly what I did after my upline sponser finally stopped beating around the bush and fililng my head with false information and unrealistic dreams. All i can say is wake up brainwashed people and do your homework before you get in over your head and brainwashed. Do the math and ask your upline to show you his past tax papers and see if "The Business" actually works. My upline had been in the business for over two years and only had recruited one person, while at the same time telling me i could make a 100,000$'s in 6 months. Ha yah right!! And what really got me was me and my wife decided to buy a new car, and i mentioned it to my sponser who then said i needed to ask permission from his upline to buy the car. I said screw that im out! Anyway heres a good link that ought to wake up some of you cult brainwashed zombies!
http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/DOWNLOADBOOK.html
All,
Great info! If someone decides not to attend a function within a reasonable amount of time then they definitely should recieve either full/ or a reasonalble partial refund depending on how much notice is given.
However you use the word "chilling" which I believe may be a bit misleading to other people checking out this blog.
In what way did your upline "pressure" you to go the function. I think an accurate discription is appropriate. Did they threaten physical harm? Did they threaten to kick you out of their group? Or, (and this seems more likely) was it no different then a sports coach who strongly suggests that a player attend a summer camp to improve on skills?
Also, what other things were rolled up into the cost for your trip? Transportation maybe? Were you taking a bus or van?
I work as a contractor for the DoD and in some of the professional magazines that I've read, they offer professional development functions that cost upwards of $1,500.00 for a 1 day event.
At least they told you that you were getting a meal.
I'm just posting in the hopes that if someone was realing seeking guidance on whether or not they should take part in the Business Devlopment/Training portion of the Quixtar business, they can at least get accurate information.
Keep it Real Man!!!
Posted by: CoolBreeze | July 27, 2006 3:56 PM