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June 13, 2006
What are you joining?
By Xanadustc in A/QMOs
The other day, I read an interesting book called ‘Stop Dating the Church’ which I reviewed recently. I thought that Chapter 4, titled 'Join the Club,' made some interesting parallels. I write this article as a warning to those professing belief if any religion because I believe that by joining a Professional Development Program affiliated with Quixtar, chances are, you will be joining a new religion.
In the book, the steps to join the church are well laid out. Indeed, joining anything is going to follow these steps to some degree, but my question is: How far? You see, if I join a job, or a new school program, or an even event of some sort, I will be following these steps. But in the Professional Development Programs, it is my experience that (in general) they require all your time, even to the exclusion of church activities! Here are the steps to joining a group:
- You Join – Signing the forms, getting all info together, all that “legal junk” that was so downplayed in my group.
- Make the Group a Priority – This does not necessarily mean top priority, but group activities should precede general entertainment.
- Try to make your leaders job a joy – You know, listen, submit, etc.
- Find ways to serve the group – Help with the behind the scenes items.
- You give to the group – Money, time, skills, etc.
- Connect with the people – Build close relationships in the group.
- Share your passion for the group – Be committed to share about the group to people outside the group.
Now, I adapted these out of the context of the church and into the context of a general group. I just wanted to show how I believe a PDP in Quixtar is similar, except that in many of them, they ask you to abandon all other groups for themselves.
Also, the book I pulled these from gives the example of a person being in a group but he realized that he was not as committed to his church as he was to the external group. He also makes the point that we can only be fully dedicated to one group, there can be others we participate it, but one will tend to dominate. Does your Quixtar business dominate, or does your church dominate?
Comments
Worried Mom, If I were you I would scream and yell until your children wake up from the pipe dream they are in. It will ruin them financially and emotionally.
I deeply feel for you, worried mom, but my testimony is clear that anyone can wake up. Just pray that they will hit the wall and become ruined financially, that is one of the only things that gets people out. If it happens sooner, they will get out. It is not a good thing, but it may be their only hope.
Good luck.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Hello I am IBO, PFC, CEO, Phillip Leon Krough,
I may have many titles but one thing is true. I'm a person that likes to explore my options and see how things work. I'm in the Iowa Army national Guard as an Infantrymen. Quixtar is my supply base for PK & Asso. I also have owned 13 other companies.. From computer Tech, to Law firms. (Even though I don't practice) To the concerned mom. I beg of you to support your children and try and get involved. At least see it. I don't know where you are from but the team I work with is LTD one of the best. The business is legal..As you can well tell from how long we have been running..85% of fortune 500 companies feel it's going to be big..A big part of the business is growing and changing the reason your children believe that it is going to work is because they have a dream..When you have that you can move mountains. I know people that have been in this business 7 months I making over 5k a month.. It works but sometimes it takes time. Them not giving up is a good thing it means you raised an amazing son. not many people are willing to fight for there dreams. So on that I say good job..I would like to touch base with you more I subscribed to the entry...My e-mail is Trilogy_xl@hotmail.com pelase feel free to contact me...By the way two months in business with the "Scam" $400 this month alone..
Wow!
If those are standards of joining something it sounds like it might be worth while or working. If these are bad requirements then I guess I need to quit my current Job that asks of us to do the same things. The only thing bad about these requirements are that they inspire one to go above and beyond what it means to be average. Anyway if you are going to succeed in anything you need to be committed. The slant of the author’s original blog is that of a negative outlook. The facts are the facts. This is a great business and people of backgrounds are making it work.
To the Mom that is concerned about what your child or young adult is now looking at, I challenge you to not look at all the negative website out there to get your information but to find out about the positives that are out there with this opportunity. You may want to start at http://www.thisbiznow.com and ask yourself why are there so many supporters of this business. I challenge you to support you child and find out what it is that they see in this program. You might find that what interests them is something that might be deeper than just making money or something that is missing at home or in a releationship somewhere. If that is the case study what it is and serve that interest with your heart and you will mostly like find that your relationship will grow better since it sounds like they are not listening to you for some reason. The fact is this business is a business that one can make money, but since you deal with people it has many intangibles that the most, not all, most jobs just do not have. I hope you really investigate by meeting the people you child is associating with and go to a few function or a few meetings before you Judge what it is really going on since you seem to care and have just found a website that has a negative view point. The (xanadustc) person sounds right. You should support you child. If they do hit the wall you win since you supported them and they learned a valuable lesson that can not be learned in school. If they succeed and make money and make a difference guess what you still win since they will be successful. I hope you think about it and do not just do the uncaring thing and not care about what they care about. Find out why they are doing it. Have a Blessed day! Brad
Good posts, Brad, Phil & Bob. I couldn't have said it better.
To worried mom, I will simply underscore what Brad, Phil & Bob suggessted. Go to a few meetings. Have personal meetings with your son's upline(s) up to the Diamonds. You say it's a business designed to only make Quixtar money? That statement tells me that you are not well informed. You need to make educated & informed decisions and comments. That only helps everyone else. We have made a steady $600-800.00 per month (profit) for at least 2 1/2 years now working this VERY part time. It has made it possible for me to be home raising my own kids. You cannot put a price on that!!!
Take a good, intelligent look at this. Then, make your call. But as was already stated, at least be supportive of your kids.
Sally
The www.thisbiznow.com site only supports Quixtar (because they do business with them) NOT the business opportunity or the lines of sponsorship.
Please look at the "By the numbers" Page on thisbiznow, right after you read the testomonials. :)
Oh yes, Brad, Phil & Bob, Sally and L.Ron! Great job, you keep on spreading those dreams of empty hope. How dare a mother… an actual parent, that actually cares about a person instead of the money/opportunities they may offer, how dare she worry that her loved one is running down a road of ruin. As a parent and sane (non-IBO) person I laud you ganging up on this mom, as a true testimony to your own grey matter washed heads. I have seen the BIZ and it is a scheme that tears apart families, friends and entire lives. Anyone that tells you not to read negative websites or books is doing so because they do not want to face any sort of balanced truth and are hiding behind the flimsiest of cover! The really sad part is I am sure you people believe you are offering the best advice and the truth. Perhaps IBO's should stop slapping each other on the back for empty achievements and start reading more non-system books and thinking more about the long term consequences that this cult like Quix might entail.
Next stop, Diamonds jumping on Oprah’s couch!
Please look at the "By the numbers" Page on thisbiznow, right after you read the testomonials. :) Mevi
If I am calculating this right does that mean that of 370,000 IBO's who received a bonus and only .0176% reach Diamond, that only 65 people qualified as Diamond? Does that mean Diamond and above, or just Diamond?
Wow
Ed,
That is indeed what Quixtar tells us. According to Jon Taylor at mlm-thetruth, you have a better shot at financial success with playing the roulette in Vegas than you do with making money in MLM in general. Robert FitzPatrick did a report where he compares MLMs to his "per 1000" model to show the low level of success in MLM. When he went to analyize A/Q, he had to shoot the model up to "per 300,000" to show a whole number making profit.
Those are the facts.
Dawson-
I appreciate someone else looking at the truth an not just what they are told to believe, because it truly is amazing what people will do if their "mentoring upline" tells them. (this message is for the extreme IBO's not the people who treat this the way it was meant and as an investment.) I agree with Dawson why not try reading some other books outside of quixtar, I know I know you're not allowed to do that because those books aren't "godly" books. Isn't it amazing that IBO's ESPECIALLY in the LTD system, are converted to christianity, and then after that takes place, all hell breaks lose. First they are convinced that because someone contacted them, that it was a gift from god, and that he wants them to do his work, by bringing people to christ throught this buisness. Then they get you to turn every social event outside of quixtar into a contacting frienzy. Your suppose to get the names and numbers of everyone at the event. But wait there's more. Have you heard of crosslining? It is when you are in a seperate organization from someone else. You are not allowed to have any form of major conversation, unless you have a common upline there overseeing the conversation. Don't belive me? I can barly belive it myself as I'm typing this. It's the ultimate form of control, because people then duplicate the mind controlers and do it themselves without realizing it. Doesn't anyone EVER wonder if we are suppose to duplicate our upline and them duplicate theirs and so on, then who is the head honcho that we are duplicating?What is he/she like? Oh wait we can't find out because we haven't "earned" their time.
P.S. Why is it that all you IBO's get all your so-called facts out of quixtar material? Thisbiznow? Give me a f***ing break. Of course those numbers are going to be good, why not go to dateline of cnbc because they are reliable and have real numbers, not what some nutjobs at the top tell you.
After-thought-
BTW worried mom, don't take the advice of those guys, if you get involved you won't be able to stop yourself and get roped in, but when I did the biz I also had a mother that was negative. My best advice is be supportive and don't criticize the buisness. Eventually they will figure it out, I know it's tough but trust me, I almost lost my relationship with my parents due to quixtar. It was all because they were negative and they tell you not to listen or associate with negative people, It's wierd but when you get hooked there is no convincing you otherwise, no matter what mess you are in.
I have recently registered with Quixtar because the idea is great. However, My husband and I are extremely skeptical about it. We learned of the company through a friend of ours who is a financial advisor and one of his clients has been successful with Quixtar. My husband and I are not jumping into this head first but are only dipping our feet in the water. We are doing our own research on quixtar and we are finding both negative and positive sides to it. The way we figure it is we will try it for a few months if we really do not see things we would normally buy or feel that this is wrong for the way we want to be then we will be gone.
L Anz, good luck in your venture. If I could just give one piece of advice, it would be to listen to your heart and not take everything you hear from your upline as the gospel truth. If they start wanting you to alienate friends and loved ones who are negative about the business, they probably do not have your best inerest at heart.
s swiper,
They are not converted to Christianity, they are preaching another Gospel. It looks like Christianity to the untrained eye, and they think it is Christianity, but the Bible is the standard for Christianity and they fall very, very short of that mark.
Other than that, I agree.
To everyone,
if you have not Hassens 'Combating Cult Mind Control' I highly recommend it. PDPs fit the mark very well!
xanadustc - for a supposed christian, why do you have so little problem with being dishonest? But then, it seems to me that those who most publicly profess their "faith" often are those who practise it in real life the least, so i guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Ed - the percentage of people qualifying as Diamond is published due to FTC requirements and is based on all people who register as IBOs, not just those who earned bonuses. There are over 800,000 registered IBOs. xanadustc knows this, but he'd prefer people did the math the way you did.
As for Jon Taylor's ridiculous "roulette" analysis, I recommend reading Len Clements comments at http://www.marketwaveinc.com/articles/Zealots11.asp
A better link for Len Clements commentary is http://www.marketwaveinc.com/articles/Zealots01.asp
The first link I gave goes to page 11 instead of page 1! :-)
Insider,
I will check out that article tonight. I have conversed with Jon a few times. I find his work interesting, but I have not gone into deep detail about how he went about that.
Now, please tell me where I am dishonest. I have seemed to miss it, but since you seemed to have found my dishonesty, please let me know where it is so I can stop this demonic lying.
Gee Insider, you don't have much of an "ehtics" problem commenting on Quixtar even though you've never been in Quixtar.(or WWDB, BWW, Interbiz, etc.)
Kettle...meet Pot. Pot...meet Kettle.
Since your beloved Mr. Clements diatribe espouses the whole tired "You wouldn't ask a divorced person for marriage advice" dysfunctional line of reasoning - you just invalidated yourself!!!
BTW, I'll be sure be let Mike Fratello, Lawrence Frank, and Red Auerbach know they weren't qualified to be NBA coaches - since they never played pro ball!
Simple!!!
How many of you that are in quixtar are making serious money (that is, after you deduct the cost of running the business). Also can you say that nothing deceptive has been revealed to you since you began the business.
Remember God is watching.
Charlie-
Tahnk you for finally making it simple. Everyone wants to look at there little facts that everyone tells them and ignore what they see with there own eyes. I suggest answering charlie's question, and for yourself, not how much are the diamonds making.
xanadustc-
Lol, I have never heard anyone put your comment to me that way before. That's awesome and you hit it right on. Before the buisness I was not a christian, so I do not have a trained eye yet to see thrugh that stuff yet. It's kinda sad but it is true that it's not true christianity.
L Anz - I am not going to say anything negative about the biz to you, you are a new IBO and thats awesome. I honestly hope the best for you. But if i can give you a tip. G A E said it perfectly. Everything sounds good and peachy when you start and sometimes it is. But make sure that you keep your head while your doing the biz. Hopefully it will all work out and you will make fortunes. But just remember that you have family and friends that have been with you for many years, and even though you don't think so now, they are very good at getting you to leave all of them to build the buisness. They will call your friends/family dream stealers. So be careful. My question to you that you probably can't answer yet but one day will, is The system works and the buisness works, there's no doubt about it and I don't think too many will question that. If you dedicate everything to this buisness and cut your association and follow the system perfectly, you will go diamond, there's no stopping it, but at what cost are you willing to go diamond? Will you abandon the very people that were with you when you grew up, or your best friend or sometimes even a spouse that they call "negative"? When is it not worth it anymore? So think about it and keep your head on straight, don't belive everything you hear. Honestly good luck to you and I hope that you make it big in quixtar.
Insider,
Okay, let's use 800,000. I don't have a problem with that. That is still only 140 diamondships out of 800,000 IBOs and is .038% of 370,000 bonused IBOs. Not to mention that 430,000 IBOs according to the above number did not bonus.
I am still a registered IBO and will renew. I like some of the products enough to pay the higher price. But, like so many others here, what I don't like is the plan being shown and Emerald and Diamond acheivments are presented as the norm. It is not the norm, and the amount of work that it takes to reach Q12 platinum (based on what I have seen) doesn't make sense for the money.
I no longer pursue the business as the evenings and weekends and other times are way too important to me to take a chance on .038% to reach that kind of income.
I am self employed for 6 years and believe in multiple income streams and passive income, but I don't believe that A/Q or even MLM is the best approach.
HERE I AM TO WRECK YOU DAY *Music Notes* hello All you happy and cheerful people out there. Phil Krough back at it again "Preaching my horrible lies and deciet" :D I understand that people out there haven't always had the best luck. I don't conform. To be honest I don't need to I have a massive amount of money with out "the Biz" I will attest that some people are more "capable" of doing this than others. Me personally I know 10k people. Not the point. My personal sponser in the business sees things a little differently than I do. He has a way of working with people that sometimes is odd to me. Coming from a traditional business mind set. Success maybe low. But that's to be expected. A certain percent goes to college, a certain percent uses they're degree, a certain percent read regularly. I understand your feelings. I am going to address everything I have read. First of all I do read outside of what the biz suggests. A LOT! I do talk to my cross-lines A LOT! I have most of there phone numbers. I DO talk to people in different states that aren't even in LTD! I have that right. I'm a friggen IBO! No one watches over me. If it's cause their worried cause I'll snap there hand or because they respect me...I'm betting respect. The ADVICE, they give me is just that advice. Take it or leave it, my choice. They are not trying to take away freedoms...Not anymore than our very own government. You debate if this is good our not. You can look at it from 7 million different ways. That's your CHOICE. I'll tell you my point of veiw. Be thankful you have the RIGHT to say half the things you said. Be happy that the people is this country are at least TRYING to make there lives better. if this business is SOOO bad Why can i get my hunting and fishing supplies at bass pro. or the books I read at B&N...the ones that they don't tell me to read..Why was it that the last book they handed to me to read "IF I HAD TIME" was entitled "People helping people" why is it that no one I see in the LTD system ISN'T making money. GIVEN I personally haven't talked to all 20k of them but I got a lot of time. You lecture people about them trying to find anything and everything they can do to better their lives..how wrong does that sound...I don't turn every thing I go to into a cold contacting frenzy as you put it...I dress nice.. I don't wear jeans a lot so sometimes I stand out. People ask I tell them a little FACT. from my PERSONAL friends (that aren't in the business) In the BBB, or my buddies in universal exports (NOT IN THE BUSINESS) and I could go on but I don't need to. Then I give them my name and number. if they want I LET them give me theirs. If they call they call. If not I know more people. Why do you have to stoop to vulger language to try and get your point acrossed. I don't stop talking to people cause they are mean or nasty...I help them..On a personal level no business...That's my number one goal! I work with charities...I work with people. I build the business to try and teach other people how to be successful. How to be happy. For themselves not the business. To make the world a better place. I haven't been to a major function yet. When I do I'll be the same person..I will tell you I have become a little happier. I have because I get to see my friends all the time. maybe we can up that success rate who knows. I will tell you Before this business I spent money on the house for food, bath, health. I'm saving a little money and time. and making a little. which I give to my mom! Don't tell me this business is evil. Don't tell anyone that. A person is evil not a business, it's just a things to be used how you see fit. Trilogy_xl@hotmail.com Please don't judge me. I didn't do anything to you. and neither did my business. You did it yourself nothing can make you fail or take your money. but you can spend it. You failed or someone you know failed and now your so mad about it you find people like you to conger sympathy. Don't waste their time. To the mom. I didn't mean for it to sound like I was ganging up on you. I meant it for you to realise their still your kids. this is not much different than a soccer game..You watch. You support. same thing. to all the IBO's I encourage you to please say your sorry, to everyone in hear that now thinks I'm a bad person. I have the purest of intentions. Until next time
Remorsefully yours,
Phil Krough
Go Diamond
How many people have become diamonds since quixtar became quixtar?
oh, I meant people who joined after quixtar with no prior affiliation. I heard it was only two, and they were related to other diamonds?
is that true?
"xanadustc",
I have got to say you seem ruthless. I see you on this site everywhere. You are more than consumed with it. It is almost like your locked in a hateful stronghold of bondage which has a Judgmental heart. That is just my perspective after reading more than a few of your responses. You seem like a person that knows the Bible so why don’t you apply it. Here something you might want to pray about. “Luke 6:37 to your life [Judging Others] "Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.” Let God be the one to Judge what is right or wrong. In the mean time go out and succeed at something in life besides typing on a computer. I say this because if you involved yourself in something greater than yourself you just might not find the time to post here.
Phil,
That was a nice way to try to place all the blame for a person that does not go diamond right on them. Frankly, with over "30+ years of experience building successful businesses" that BWW boasts, why are there only 60-100 diamonds right now out of 350-800,000 people (I am using very rough numbers because no one can agree on them)?
If I owned a consulting firm to help businesses and I gave them those numbers, they be likely to recruit a NYC bum to help out instead.
Good luck going diamond. The rest of us will have money by the time you don't make it.
Hello anotheribo,
No that is not True at all. As a matter of fact there has been a bunch. What is even cooler is how many emralds that have been made since it launched. Even cooler than that is the amount of Platinums. If you get a chance pick up a copy of the 2005 Achieve magazine. I will not say that you will like it, but then pick up the 2004, then the 2003. This shows them. I then did the logical. I compared that not to the world but to my office and the things I had around me. This is what get me excited.
Thanks Brad, How do you know so much about the business? Are you a diamond? I only asked the original question because it has been 6 years since Quixtar started and with over 800,000 IBO's you would think there would be more success stories on the 5 year plan. It has now been six and the numbers don't seem to match what would be expected
Insider,
I have found that article series terrible.
First,
Character assassination is the primary objective.
Second,
He takes the "rule book" approach debunking the reality of what happens.
Third,
There is evidence that he is setting up a Straw man against these four people. I would encourage you to try to find the main points in Van Druff's document that this author was commenting on. I found 1, yes ONE and it was out of context. The other points, I do not know where they came from.
Fourth,
He makes faulty assumptions about the character traits required to examine something. He sets up that each author can not write objectively because they have not been in MLMs (or at least that many MLM's. You should know better than that! Do I need to have AIDS to know the struggle it entails? I don't think so. In fact, that was the logic that many a fools tried to use when I said "No" to drugs! "You can't KNOW what they are like unless you try them." they said. It was a lie then, and it is a lie now.
What these authors did (I have not read Ruth's work) was to set up a mechanism pattern, a definition,which includes a model, and then they project that model to produce a theory. And it works. It is accurate. While it is true that a few people can make money in MLM, it is anomoly, not the rule. For every one person that is successful, there are many, many, many who are not. That is the bottom line. Can you give me a situation where by an MLM FRONTLINE is profitable as a generaliztion? I submit that you can not because the prodcuts tend to be priced out of competition, people do not know about them, it is more convienient to stop by the store on the way home, you have more selection, and you are not trying to be sold the latest fad.
Brad,
I believe you post more on this site and on the forum than X does.
Also, please define "judging." In your post, you called X judgemental, said it seems like he's "locked in a hateful stronghold of bondage," and implied that he doesn't apply what the Bible teaches. So, if my understanding of your understanding of judging is correct, it seems that you are doing just what you are condemning.
Just a thought.
Okay, let's see where do I even begin with that mess of a post.
1st of all I want it to be know that when I post a comment about IBO's I am posting based on the knowledge that I have from the biz. I know that there are great teams out there, no doubt, nut I was in the LTD system and so is phil so let's chat.
Questions:
1. Does Larry Winters believe that this buisness is a ministry to bring people to christ? yes no
2. Do any of the IBO's tell you that this is actually a ministry when you sign up? yes no
3. Do the so-called christians use the buisness to convince you that this is a calling from god and that if you do anything else with your life you are being disobedient to god?yes no
4. Do the IBO's use any other source of information othe than articles by quixtar to prove that the buisness works? Yes no
5. Honestly, do you look at people, family included, as prospects every time you get together? yes no
I understand that in some LOS the rules are not as strict, and you may have crossline numbers in your phone, in the LOS that I was in, it was a rule that you NEVER have any conversation with crossline unless a common upline over-hears it. That is the ultimate control, does anyone ever wonder why is that? Maybe we aren't supposed to be talking so we can cut off anyone that is thinking normally.
Oh and by the way, I wouldn't be blabbing my mouth if I were you before you have even been to a function. You obviously don't know everything about the buisness then do you. Oh and here is some math for anyone who is ionterested. Winters team in particular.
20,000 people in a building and $100 a ticket.
Price for the stadium.... $9,000 a day
Cost of the airfare for the speakers...about $5,000
Price for the deceit and lies that they never tell you they are banking over $1 million a function.... priceless
So next time get all the facts before writing a message that takes that long to read and is actually pretty much a waste of time
Oh and Brad:
You want to pick on xanadustc for being on here so much. First of all if Im not mistaken Kettle, you are on here everywhere as well. So before you judge maybe you should think about what you are saying before you click that "post" button at the bottom. Second I wouldn't badgering one of the few people on this site that makes sense, Correct me if I'm wrong but he has been pretty far in the buisness and obviously figured out more than you.
Hey Brad,
Read the context of that verse, it is about hypocrasy. This is the synoptic parable to Matthew 7:1 and following, which is about how to properly judge:
1. Check yourself for that sin
2. Cleanse yourself if needed
3. Go to your brother who is in sin and tell him about it.
Did you not know that the Bible is not a disconnected series of one liners? However, being submissive to a PDP, I would not expect you to know that because you are fed what they feed you and they leave out the parts not consistant with their theology in the hopes that you never figure it out!
I have covered this issue a pluthera (sp?) of times, Here it is again copied from my previous arguements:
I must explain the context and usage of judging, because in a moment, I will quote a verse that is often quoted out of context.
Are we to judge? Contrast all these verses:
Matthew 7:1, 2 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.”
John 7:24 “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.” (See also Matthew 7:16)
Romans 14:4 “Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”
1 Corinthians 5:12 “For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?”
Are we confused yet? The context of all these is as follows:
* The verse in Matthew is a judgment on external appearances. Jesus here is referring to the Pharisees who are perfect on the outside and wicked on the inside. These people judged those around them based on external observances while they, themselves, were being their own people (as compared to God’s people).
* The verse in John is Jesus speaking in terms of the law of Sabbath and the purpose. He makes the point that we are to judge very discerningly and righteously; not factitiously, like the Pharisees did. Thus, if we are in tune with the ways of God and truly seek to live for Him, even at our material, social, or whatever loss, we have been granted the ability to judge using the discernment that filters through the scriptures.
* The verse in Romans is about judging young Christians who do not yet understand the totally implications of the faith. People grow in Christ over time, and like a child is not expected to be a mature adult too quickly, nor can a young Christian.
* To combat a problem with the above Romans verse comes the counterpart in 1 Corinthians. This verse is about judging those who say that they are Christians, but the fruit and actions of their life show the contrary.
And yes, I am here a bit, but let us compare numbers -
Brad forum posts: 642 since March 2006
Me forum posts: 112 since July 2005
That means you post 5.73 times more forum replies than I do
I don't know the number of comments either of us have posted, but if it is anything the same, it is a scary thought.
FYI, blogging is a hobby of mine, not my only one, but I do enjoy it. I actually run 2 blogs, in addition to this one, participate in three forums (one is my own), and read a few other blogs daily if I can. I know I do't reap in the massive cash flow that you do, but I enjoy the time and I also impact many people in the name of Jesus.
xanadustc - For every one person that is successful, there are many, many, many who are not. That is the bottom line. .
And this differs to "life" how?
I didn't expect you would think much of Clement's article. It disagrees to much with your blind world view.
Ed - the average income of the part-time business of a Q-12 platinum is significantly more than the average income of a full-time worker in the US (and there's a free trip). So how does that return not make sense?
AnotherIBO - what makes you think all these IBOs do the work to become Diamonds or even Platinums? They don't, and thus sensible people don't expect them to be platinums and diamonds.
Seems you fall into the group of folk (common around here) that believe success is a matter of chance?
Insider,
First, in 'life' there are certainly more people living well off (at least in America) than any other level. But in Quixtar, their own numbers tell you that it is something ot the effect of 1 in 400 who actually make that coveted Q-12 pay. FYI, that is BEFORE EXPENSES AND TAXES!! In fact, that is lower than the national average for people who have graduated with a standard four year college degree.
FYI, I do not have the blind world view. I did at one point in time...You still have not pointed out where I am dishonest by the way. I am waiting for that.
Have fun, good luck, and don't lose your shirt.
insider,
Remember that the Q-12 income does not include the massive expenses (in time and money) that system Q-12's will rack up. I suspect if people took up second jobs during all the time needed to make that income, they could make just as much money as the Q-12's net income.
And even though I haven't read any of the articles you and X linked to, I understand your point that it may not be appropriate to use pure chance to compare to your "chances" of making it in Quixtar, especially if you are rewarded commensurate to the amount of work you put in. But I doubt this is the case and it seems that the system works against the IBO.
Let me give an example. I applied to 6 of the top grad schools in my field and got into them. On one visit, I was really impressed by the facilities in the department I was admitted to, but then I heard that 50% failed their qualifiers.
Now, this is a department that is very selective about who they brought in. I was told by a professor that there was a 13% acceptance rate, and you can imagine that a good portion of students applying to grad schools, especially such a good one, would be good students.
Even though I have always been a fantastic student (just being honest here), I refused to attend the school because I felt that if 50% were failing, it wasn't the students' fault, but that there was something wrong with the department. I had been admitted by other schools which were just as good or better, so I wasn't going to waste my time there with those chances of advancing in my PhD.
Fastforward to 4 years later. I related this experience as well as my thoughts about it to my advisors and they explained that what these kinds of departments do is that they admit more students than they can fund and use the qualifying exam to weed people out. On the other hand in the department I'm in, they feel the qualifying exam is unnecessary (I won't state the reasons here), and basically, they don't want to put roadblocks in the path of students' progress.
So that's another perspective. I'm sure there are lazy IBOs, but are all IBOs lazy? Chance or no chance, why is the percentage of people qualifying for high pins so, so small? Maybe the system is broken.
I'm sure I could make an income the same as or greater than the average diamond income after some (or several) years at a job (thank God for education), and without putting all the work that diamonds put in an making money off IBOs below me from mostly useless (IMO) tools. Even if I never made that money, after being in the business, it would still not be worth my time and effort to be a Q IBO.
Be intersting to compare compensations between the part time platinum's income and that of the average American worker. I would be willing to wager the average American comes out ahead when you subtract expenses to the platinum, and add in benefits such as medical insurance, etc. to the Average American. Sure that extra platinum income would be great, but it's not a one-to-one comparison. I'd rather make a salary of $30,000, if it included comprehensive medical, some 401k matching, and other benfits, then $40,000 as an IBO (before expenses). I've heard a general rule of thumb is you need to make 1.5 to 2 times the amount if you work for yourself to equal what your salary + benefits give you.
Xanadustc: "Ed" repeated the 0.176%* 380,000IBOs=# of Diamonds error. You know that to be false yet immediately replied "That is indeed what Quixtar tells us".
Dishonest.
rara/dmm - there is no "massive expenses" and those that exist are a tax deductible. Again, this is above average income for no more than 20hrs work AND the tax advantages. I have zero doubt which is better off.
rara - re your college example, I agree with your judgement about the college, but you are missing one critical part of the analogy. You need to find a college where the great majority of enrollees never attend a single lecture, let alone turn up to exams.
Now, I think it is unfair to attribute this to "laziness" on the part of IBOs. Unlike a university degree, which has a clear goal at the end, IBOs are free to set whatever goals they which. I have someone now who is considering buying an eSpring, and with some specials we have at the moment, becoming an IBO just to buy that saves them a LOT of money - even if they never buy another thing.
Yet you would have them categorized as a "failure"?
dmm - just an addition to your comment. Average Q-12 platinum earns 47K per month. Once the business is built it could easily be maintained with no more than 15 hrs a week. So this is equivalent to 125K in a 40hr/wk job, without accounting for tax advantages. In other words, more than 3 times the average income, so well over the 1.5-2X recommendation you give - and the average small business owner works way more than 40hrs/wk.
well here we go again. Another round it would seem. I placed blame on people placing blame. You can't expect everything to go the way you would hope it does. That's unrealistic. Personally I am a ceo. A business investor. and a private consultant for companies. I have had my success. You can look at this in a lot of ways. I saw it as a chance to learn something new about business. I have learned a lot about this type of business. Please don't compair me to some pipe dreamer. Diamonds that's a totally different story. because it doesn't completely depend on one person. Nothing does today! It takes time and a lot of effort. This I will agree with. I mean Brent Harris Des moines PD SGT. best month in business 196k He's not diamond. Chris Richer best month in business 20+k not a diamond. The time line for Diamond maybe wrong. BUT the money doesn't seem to be. Who knows I'm not that far into the business. A lot of it is the way you present a business. I'll tell you what though. Reguardless of my "title" in this business I have a few goals. To change peoples thought about this business, To help mankind, by that I of course mean I will bust my butt to build YOU a business. The only thing I ask is that IF we reach your goal you would donate a little time and/or money to charity. I don't care what who ever believes. I know what I believe. I know I want to make the world a better place. This is a chance to get people into business help them get them successful. I'm tired of living in a world like this. If we can all agree on one thing I would hope it was change. I want to make it better. To those of you that have had a bad exp. I'm sorry! I mean it, I don't think that is fair. To those of you that know someone who has tell them some random guy said he was sorry. But as a former "Traditional business owner" a member of the Army, A Christian, a friend, a family member, I will do anything to change the world for the better. Not preaching telling you. I work with a lot of charities, groups, people...I want to make it better. Maybe change the hearts and minds of people. Maybe make it so there isn't a false ministry. Or what ever. Until next time.
Making the world a better place,
Phil Krough
insider> Once the business is built it could easily be maintained with no more than 15 hrs a week. So this is equivalent to 125K in a 40hr/wk job, without accounting for tax advantages.
DI> You have any proof for that, or is this just another one of your 'theories' that we're supposed to accept as fact?
Don, you're right. I wonder how he even came up with that "theory"?
My diamond sure seemed busy when I was still active in the business and I wondered why.
Insider,
Well, it looks like the numbers have changed. Now it is only .0120%. This has changed since this topic started. Below is pasted right from thisbiznow.com
*The following are approximate percentages of Direct Fulfillment IBOs of record in North America who achieved the illustrated levels of success in the calendar year ending August 31, 2005: Diamond .0120%; Emerald .0320%; Q-12 Platinum .1683%.
Using your 800,000, I calculate
96 Diamonds in 05
256 Emeralds in 05
1345 Q12 Platinums in 05
Bonuses to this group = 96,455,056.00
So 28% of the bonuses went to these people who qualified in 05. It is a little vague as to whether they qualified for the first time or again. The above numbers are taken straight from thisbiznow.com except for your 800,000. It is a shame they don't post what percentage these numbers are taken from, they just say "Direct Fulfillment IBOS"
I don't look at the Acheive Magazine that often, but have there been 96 new diamonds featured?
I do not see any good or bad in these numbers whether they are based on 800,000 IBOs or 370,000 IBOs. For me it really came down to the fact in our LOS Emerald and Diamond were portrayed as the norm if you work 15 hour per week. 15 Hours per week is just not realistic. These numbers just prove that Emerald and Diamond are not the norm. I watched 1000 and 2500 pins in our upline putting in roughly 5 to 7 hours 5 nights a week.
I watched our Q12 platinum very closely. He was working WAY more than 15 hours per week. He would do that on a weekend week after week alone. He would also log 3 or more hours 5 nights a week. Usually more because he would not get in until very late. He would send IBOCS messages while driving back. He also spoke of chasing legs all over the country. Just based on my experience is business, as your business grows, with or without your direct involvement, maintenance takes time and sometimes even more as it grows because of having more to manage.
Therefore, chasing no shows and being out until midnight and 2 AM consistently for 47K before expenses(Books, Audios, Functions, BDSs, Miles, Promos, Telco, etc) = Not worth it for me.
I am a 2 time IBO. I did this in the early nineties under Amway and Ken Stewart was my upline Diamond (Crown). I am in a different LOS now under Yager but there are really no differences now from then on how much time is being spent going for those numbers. It may very well be worth it to some, but it wasn't to me and likely, based on the reality of thisbiznow.com's numbers it won't be to others as well.
Insider, let us consider the facts:
Ed said:
Okay, let's use 800,000. I don't have a problem with that. That is still only 140 diamondships out of 800,000 IBOs and is .038% of 370,000 bonused IBOs. Not to mention that 430,000 IBOs according to the above number did not bonus.
And I said:
Frankly, with over "30+ years of experience building successful businesses" that BWW boasts, why are there only 60-100 diamonds right now out of 350-800,000 people (I am using very rough numbers because no one can agree on them)?
And you said:
Xanadustc: "Ed" repeated the 0.176%* 380,000IBOs=# of Diamonds error. You know that to be false yet immediately replied "That is indeed what Quixtar tells us".
Yet Ed got those from the Quixtar approved ThisBizNow site. Also take note that I included a very rough estimate and SAID THAT IS WHAT IT IS!!!
Now, your comments to me on this whole 'dishonesty' matter are about as interesting as when Brad said:
In the mean time go out and succeed at something in life besides typing on a computer. I say this because if you involved yourself in something greater than yourself you just might not find the time to post here.
and I said:
And yes, I am here a bit, but let us compare numbers -
Brad forum posts: 642 since March 2006
Me forum posts: 112 since July 2005
That means you post 5.73 times more forum replies than I do
Hmmm...I think you two need to get together!
Actually, X, it is more accurate to say Brad has posted 5.73 more times than you have.
Assuming Brad started posting at the beginning of March (which I believe he did) and you started at the beginning of July last year, the number of posts per day for each of you is roughly:
Brad = 642/105 = 6.1
X = 112/350 =0.32
So Brad actually posts about 19 times more frequently than you do.
Phil:
I hope the best for you. You sound like a great person with an awesome heart. I just hope that you don't fall into their web of lies. I know that in some LOS there are no lies, but in others, they are very good at lying and you don't even realize the truth anymore. So I'm basically saying that I hope that this buisness works for you in the ways that you hope but if you start losing alot of money or are questioning things that they believe, sometimes trust your gut instinct. The world needs people with hearts like you, but sometimes the good guys get taken advantage of. I honestly hope the best for you, good luck with everything
Len Clements? The MLM psychotic? the fellow that just "KNOWS" mlm such the perfect marketing model that he's spent some years perfecting one that isn't f***'ed going in? How's that going for him, anyway? I saw him spanked on MLMS because he's so overzealous that he thinks he's above the rules.
Why don't we quote some Ted Kaczynski or Charlie Manson while we're at it? Has anyone of you ever read the Unabomber manifesto? I haven't slogged through the whole thing, but there's some wisdom in there. Likewise, Len has some brilliance behind the insanity as do those other guys, but he's starting from flawed premises, namely that mlm is a viable marketing model. Here, I have one for you, and I think it applies one way or the other:
All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes. ...
Know who that was (no googling, that's cheating!)?
The thing about the big lie is, whenever possible you use as many small truths as you can to support it, but those small truths all add up to "you just got screwed, guy".
Do you guys know every purchase you make at IBO price is taxed on suggested retail price? think about how much money quixtar makes alone on ignorant imbiciles that strives on hopes and dreams. most of the ppl that are joining or interested in joining are the bottom of the food chain desperate. A young lady I know told me to keep the receipts for beer and wings last night because it was a business expense..What the does she know about tax deductions??? I will go on the government website and find out the facts about small business owners but im sure you cannot claim alcool as a tax deduction.
I recently joined Quixtar oh sorry True north Or so I was told and attended my first seminar last night which was delivered by Visioneast inc... I cannot find any information on visioneast and I am waiting for a response from the better business Bureau. I read 1/3 of the getting started guide and have found many discrepencies from what I was told from my ow so mighty godly upline. The initial price to join includes the introductory pack. You have the choice to not purchace this 80$ product (paid for a 37$ bottle of Body cleansing cream) but im sure its worth alot of points. Mind you I was told that i was credited 50.05 points upon joining...there was no credit i was sucked into purchasing the product for those points. I had a choice but i was never told I could make this decision.
you have the choice on wether or not you want to buy and sell motivational items "the tools to succeed" that is #*$#ing BS. I will not spend a penny on this but i know i can sell the plan. i can make a few dollars sure, but don't get brain washed by those flamboyant idiots that we should refer to with such respect. the speaker last night was telling on how he had freedom and time...he was in a different city everyday this week...where the hell is his family????
so am I right by saying there are two business's
1. envolve other IBO's get volume.
2. take your profit and buy useless crap from a motivational speaker that earns millions from quixtar and in return creating more volume through the zombies he preaches???
not a CONsumer but signed...a SMARTsumer
Actually, John Doe,
Quixtar does not make money on that extra tax. They charge tax on retail price under the assumption that the IBO's are actually selling a large number of items (that is a debatable point), but the IBO can fillout a form and get a refund on the extra money. I don't like how this is not readily taught by many uplines, but is in the Quixtar material if you read that.
Quixtar does a good thing to collect sales tax and pay it so the IBO does not have to, they charge the extra, but you can always get that extra back.
Insider - how do you know they didn't want to go Q-12, Ruby, Emerald, etc.?
Dishonest, also pathetic. You can't even see when you are beaten at your own game.
You bore me now.
Cristian - Sorry we all don't do back-flips for your "up-front" comments. Nothing I haven't heard before.
Here's some up front for you. If you think you'll answer to no one by being a "business owner", you are sadly mistaken. Get past the one-dimensional thinking already. Or talk to an actual business owner.
After all,
As a friend of mine pointed out, I was being dishonest...I used Quixtars numbers!
(LOL)
Hey Phil again,
Thanks for the advice I'll keep it in mind. Take some time and spread some good guys...you only have one life
everyones opinions are very funny..... In the end, those that work hard consistantly at somthing will become good at that, not hours or days or months, but years! Atheletes for example, movie stars, writers, business owners, employee's...the list goes on. I am not an IBO, but we all have 24 hours in a day, and we will all become good at some point, at something. Amway may be one of those things or not. look around. there is oportunity everywhere you just need to decide if you will change where your headed or not.
have a great 10 years.
A.
Andy, your message would be true if we lived in a fair world. But as we all know, the world isn't fair. For example, the majority of people are not athletically gifted enough to make it to the NFL, despite how hard they may work. I'm fairly athletic, but at 5'10" 215 pounds, I would play either running back or defensive back. But with a 40 time of close to 5, I would never be able to drop enough time to make it past small college football level. It isn't fair, but it's nature.
With AmQuix, the cards are purposely stacked against the plugged in IBO. In the buy from yourself and teach others to do so model, you need to recruit and maintain a very large downline in order to make money. If each person in your downline isn't retailing, each of them has to maintain an equally large downline, and so on. In addition, despite the fact your business may not be growing, the tools all have the same message of keep going, as you will make it some day, and if you don't, it is your own fault. Basically, it just is not fair.
That is not to say some will make it. But the cards are stacked against them, and by AmQuix's own numbers, less then 1 in 14,000 ever make it to diamond. Spin it any way you want, but the numbers do not tell a particualy good story.
DMM- Man you couldn't have said it any better, and it's amazing how they get you to believe that you will make it someday, and you will give up your friends family, spouse you'll whole life just in the hopes of making it someday, when a million other opportunities are floating right by. I'm not going to say that it IS a cult, but they use a lot of the same techniques that a cult would use. I just hope people are careful about their futures and don't rest it in the hands of anyone but themselves and god. Forget about anyone else owning your future, we all only get one life on this ball of mud, and it is no one elses right to tell you how to live yours and ruin it.
You guys are totally out of control. Wow it has been about Two weeks since I posted about the Judgemental thing. I was right I should not even wasted the time coming here. I saw some one say I posted over 642 time/ 105 to =6 times a day on this site. That is very much like this site, a huge lie. Sorry dude but you are cornfused. More like 5 times/ over 4 years o that is 1460 so my posting is more like .003 time a day average dude. I have only been here a few times. You should have real logins so you can track all of this CRAP and who it is from. This is a great example of your so called Facts P.S. You guys need help.
Here more facts:
Most IBOs who post here don't make any money yet they defend the business like their lives depended on it.
(No proof, real or even anecdotal)
Why is that? Effective teaching?
I am new to this whole business. My friend from middle school has turned me on to the "biz" as it is called. I have been to 2 meetings so far and I am in between skeptic and being for it. After the initial meeting where you arent really given any information about the business, by the second time going to the meeting the speaker really broke things down and really had me believing that this thing was do-able. Well, the thing that I keep getting hung on is:
1. Why do you have to spend money to make money. I mean you dont have to spend money to make it in the business world. When I went with my friend (who is an IBO) to the meeting I saw him pay before going into the meeting? I can sort of understand why you would have to pay for the conferences because they are being held in different buildings and locations and must be payed for.
I am from Greensboro and they just bought a new building to hold meetings and they throw around all these people who supposedly make all this money and have them give you their success story, but why is it that you have to pay for food at the training sessions.
At the second meeting they had this thing called a night owl, where they stay late night to train these new IBO's and things. The initial speaker said their would be pizza served and candidly put in the fact that for one slice it would be $1, desert pizza would be $2.50. Why is this so. I dont understand at all, you would think that with all these people supposedly making money that these things would be payed for already.
2. This business is supposed to be based on christianity but why do they hold conference meetings on sundays, which to most christians is when they go to church and learn about christianity and information that would make their life better through the word of GOD.
I just dont understand these things about the "biz" could someone please explain?
concernedskeptic, you are right in doing your research. Ask questions about motivational tools, functions, and what you will be expected to pay for these services. It all adds up to a pretty large sum of money. Don't let someone tell you to alienate family and friends who are negative about the business. If you decide to get in the best of luck to you. Just keep a level head and you will do fine.
Brad, I'm the one that wrote about how frequently you post. Read that post again.
If you want to stop wasting time here, just do it.
You don't write like our regular Brad, come to think of it, so maybe you are another Brad or a Brad impostor. Oh, or maybe you (the other, less frequent Brad), were mistaken for our dear Brad. If that is the case, my apologies for the mixup but my points (asked in the form of questions) about your "judgmental" comment still stand.
Xanadustc,
How much money do you make? Why should anyone really even listen to you. People are going to be involved in Quixtar based on what they see and are either going to believe in the system or not. The whole business is based on working with teams of like-minded business owners, and you are obviously not one of them. If you don't like the Quixtar system, its very simple: don't do it. The company is going to continue to grow with or without you. So, instead of bashing Quixtar all day online, why don't you go out and do something positive with your life...
Johns77,
Is telling the truth bashing?
What about upline telling people their bosses are evil and flush your stinking job? Why back people who work for a living?
I'm so annoyed. I've been trying to find a mother's social/networking group on Meetup.com but they all seem to be fronts for Quixtar. Women posing as people who are just looking to make new friends...i feel like Quixtar is the zombies in Night of the Living Dead - you never know who might be next...just so annoyed.
My son and daugher in law, after several years are still convinced that they are going to find their fortune in Quixtar. It doesn't matter that the money flows out but almost nothing comes back, or that they are putting money into traveling to these Quixtar meetings and conventions; hotel, gas, airline tickets, child care, meals, etc. with NO return on their investment. They get a few free products now and then, but let me assure you that they could have done so much more with the actual money that they've invested so far.
It doesn't matter what I say or how much I warn them; Quixtar type MLMs have been around forever and at some point most people try to make money with them and fail. You CAN'T make money at this because it's not designed that way; you will ONLY make money for Quixtar - IT IS DESIGNED THAT WAY!!! You always lose unless you are the one who's getting paid to make those inspirational speeches to 'keep them coming and spending'.
With the money that they have already spent, they could have bought a house, a reliable car and had a couple of really great vacations. Instead it's lost in motivational materials that have literally cost them thousands of dollars.
All of this crap of gaining more family time is actually the reverse. The fortune is not for them but for the crooks who head up Quixtar. If I were in their shoes I'd be screaming by now..."I want my life & money back!!!"
It's a very good thing that it's not me out there putting up with this because I would be out for some serious revenge about now. I can yell loud and hard and make people listen to me and I can guarantee that they would know without any doubt whatsoever that I would be putting an end to their scam. BTW - I don't know who Scott Larson is, but if he's yelling loud and hard...I'm going to back him up and NOT Quixtar. They were crooks when they were AMWAY and they are still crooks...just with another name! WARNING WARNING WILL ROBINSON -
Posted by: Worried Mom | June 13, 2006 6:06 PM