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June 14, 2006
In Their Own Words - 6
By Xanadustc in Their Own Words
This week, we learn that we are not doing good (as long as we have a job, anyway).
In John Crowe’s own words:
How about this one: ‘Well, I’m already doing well, I’m already doing really well.’ Compared to who? [sic] What standard of ‘Mr. Bigshot’ do you have? You’re doing well compared to Paul Miller? Bill Britt? I love it when people go, ‘I’m doing pretty good.’ Let me give you a hint: If you have to go to work, you ain’t doing very good.
» Doing Good [MP3] John Crowe, BWW166, ‘Stay Young at Heart’
If I am hearing John correctly, we need to compare ourselves to other people and we have to find some way of producing enough money to never work again.
Never mind the fact that comparing yourself to other people is absolutely fruitless.
Never mind the fact that work is a great thing to do. Whether you are giving your skills to better mankind or to just put food on the table, you are a person deserving of all the love and respect that any other person would get. Let us not forget that!
Let us also not forget that research shows you have a better shot of getting rich playing the roulette wheel in Vegas than making money in an MLM [PDF].
So, if I need to go to work to pay my bills, I am not doing good, huh? Am I less of a man than if I rob people blind for a motivational tape that they do not need or profit off of a product that is way over priced?
Comments
And Bill Britt and Paul Miller are doing well compared to who? Bill Gates or the Waltons? There are many people much richer than the Britts and Millers.
The desire for wealth will never be satisfied. How much money is enough?
What ever happened to contentment (which Mr. Crowe is demonizing)? As the Bible says in 1 Tim 6:6-10:
6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
I am almost sure most of the people that read this blog or the forum make more than I do (but not for long!), but even with my Quixtar-induced debt, I am happily content. Sure, I would like to make more money, but that isn't my ultimate and all-consuming goal in life.
I remember my upline also basically scoffing at one of my friends who said she was very content when he showed her the plan. I couldn't understand his reaction because he is supposed to be a Christian. And I also didn't fully grasp what the people in the "biz" meant when they said that people who had jobs were chasing the $ bill, when it seemed to me that it was IBOs who were chasing the $ bill. I mean, most people leave their jobs (no matter how many hours they work) and come home and do whatever they want to do. But you were supposed to be sold out 100% to the biz and always thinking about it, even on vacation or during social events! (The few that you get to attend, that is.) CORE IBOs consult their bosses, sorry, I mean upline, on so many things even outside the biz, for goodness' sakes!
Question: Who is really chasing the $ bill - someone who has a (gasp!) J.O.B. and is content OR someone who is constantly pursuing "the dream" every waking hour (and there are numerous waking hours due to the lack of sleep) and thinks that s/he will be content/significant if only s/he were a multimillionaire?
And before you IBOs come at me, I am talking about contentment not complacency. I know the difference.
Small business ownership might be for you, Chistian. But it is not for everyone. I tried, and found the hours were much longer then when I had a job. I also found I preferred the steady income of my job. I also realized I'd rather deal with bosses, corporate politics and any other crap a job came with versus dealing with clients, accountants and whatnot. In short, I found that I was much more productive, and much happier in a job environment!
And financially, I am doing much better. I found I wasn't a good business owner. My finances took a big hit when I worked for myself as a traditional business owner! Sure, I may never make the big bucks that my small business might have provided, but at the same time, my risk is a lot lower.
By the way, I enjoy my job most of the time too. I find it rewarding and often times fun. It also allows for a lot more flexibility then when I owned my own business, because I have a group of people I work with that help me when I need it.
Last but not least, if anyone thinks Amway/Quixtar is their ticket to "financial freedom," they should carefully look at the numbers. Sure a very minute amount of people make it to the top, but they represent significantly less then 1% of all people who sign up to be IBO's. And like Xandustic said, odds are better you'd win in Vegas, then become financially free in Quixtar. And that doesn't mention the time you would have to put in to make it.
Let me give you a hint: If you have to go to work, you ain’t doing very good.
Statement like this really entice me to just hang out at the mall waiting for someone to prospect me...
Oh, wait. Someone did. You should see the look in his face when I said "technically speaking, I can retire". I guess they're not trained to handle that statement, eh?
What I would tell you is:
"What about considering options you might find useful? At this stage I am not making you a promise but would like to give you a genuine opportunity you can take a look at and then, decide."
I really agree with what rara said about "chasing dollar bills." Amway/Quixtar has always tried to appeal to the unhealthy and lower-minded qualities of greed and envy in human nature. When I was first prospected by Amway in the 80's, the presenter tried to get me fired up about having a million dollars. What would I do with that kind of cash? I told him that money was not all that important to me, that really large sums of money might generate more responsibility than freedom at times. He had no way to answer that. I guess I was hijacking his group-hallucination of big money, big dreams. I then asked him why a dentist (that was his JOB) needed any more money than he was already making. He went off on a tangent about being able to buy yachts and other Onassis-style luxury items. I could tell he was a sad case of arrested human development--"Looky here, I AM what I own." I have always wondered if he found what he was looking for in Amway, or turned out to be one of those dentist suicide statistics, because he seemed so unsatisfied with his lot in life.
Xanadustc, I sincerely would like to hear your comments on this.
I'm not gonna go out of my way to analyze your message, but I think I still have something to share. I'll share some of my comments by commenting on some of your words:
>This week, we learn that we are not doing good (as long as we have a job, anyway).
I think you might have misinterpretted 'doing good' to mean 'contributing to society' whereas the quote equate it with 'doing well' or 'no need for change.'
And then you say 'have a job'. There's no refutation of the importance of 'having a job' in the quote. It makes note of 'have to go to work' which I think he intends to contrast with 'not having a choice'.
The you speak about John's assertion that we 'need to compare ourselves to other people'. I don't think he meant we are to compare and feel bad in relation to these people, but rather to model succesful techniques.
'we have to find some way of producing enough money to never work again.' Again its not to 'never work again' but to 'never feel forced to work'. Many people feel imprisoned by work.
"Never mind the fact that comparing yourself to other people is absolutely fruitless."
This is obviously a debatable point. Any one who has ever modeled anyone else can attest to its fruits. We're more than welcome to debate this point.
I just wanted to share. Much of your analysis stems from what I consider false interpretations and assumptions that I've already outlined. Some other statements of yours plays on communal assumptions and the emotional tenderness that this topic brings up.
I hope you find my writings of a little value. I've done my best to outline it in a consistent and logical manner.
Rara
Having been raised a Christian (though I don't count myself as one anymore) I don't think its fair to discount Quixtar because it's followers lack the capacity to live up to its principles. Should we discount Christianity because your upline was not able to live up to her principles?
Try the military. I only have 5 more years and I will have residual income for the rest of my life :)
me!,
I did not discount Quixtar but the practices of certain (okay, a lot of) IBOs. I commented on John Crowe's words and the words and actions of other IBOs I encountered personally and on this website.
If you read some of my other comments, you would know that I have no problem with IBOs running their businesses in an ethical manner and in fact applaud them, although I do have a problem with the Q corp. for not reining in the abuses.
And I don't know if you mistyped, but nowhere do I discount Christianity. I am a committed Christian.
I think if the IBO leadership followed the principles Amway was founded on, we probably wouldn't be having this exchange, and this blog (and others critical of A/Q) probably wouldn't exist.
Btw, I believe you are reinterpreting what Mr. Crowe said and inserting your own qualifiers into his statements. From my experience in BWW (I've even heard Mr. Crowe speak live), I'd say that X's interpretation is pretty accurate. How would you explain BWW leaders and IBOs (just check out the comments sections in this blog) saying that most, if not all, people not in this biz are broke?
Sounds like me! is doing a good job of what is reffered to as "spinning," or "spin control." Here's what the diamond said, "...," but here is what he really means, "..."
That's not to say me!'s spin is incorrect and he is interpreting John Crowe better then Xandustic. However, how many IBO's have a little me! inside their head spinning the words of Crowe when they listen to it? How many IBO's have the same take and interpretation that Xandustic has when they hear or read Crowe's words?
Face value, I'd have to agree with Xandustic. To me, either that means Xan is correct with his interrpretation, or Crowe needs to write/give better speaches that better conveys his message.
Well, me!, it certainly looks like you went out of your way to analyze my words!
Let me respond:
I think you might have misinterpretted 'doing good' to mean 'contributing to society' whereas the quote equate it with 'doing well' or 'no need for change.'
No, I was clearly referring to financial success. There is a little prinicple that us educated people learned called "Context clues". This si where by you can derive the context of the word or phrase based on the surrounding words.
And then you say 'have a job'. There's no refutation of the importance of 'having a job' in the quote. It makes note of 'have to go to work' which I think he intends to contrast with 'not having a choice'.
No, he is literally making fun of people who have a job. Listen to the tape and it will all become clear.
The you speak about John's assertion that we 'need to compare ourselves to other people'. I don't think he meant we are to compare and feel bad in relation to these people, but rather to model succesful techniques.
No, he was saying that if YOUR financial portfolio was not the same at Britt or Miller, you are not doing good, thus, I need to compare unimportant matters like my social status to theirs in order to test how good a person I am.
'we have to find some way of producing enough money to never work again.' Again its not to 'never work again' but to 'never feel forced to work'. Many people feel imprisoned by work.
I am going to argue from a Christian standpoint: If you feel 'imprisoned' by work, you need to get on your knees in prayer because you are violating a command of the Lord found in Matthew 6. Go to a pastor if you need help at this point.
"Never mind the fact that comparing yourself to other people is absolutely fruitless."This is obviously a debatable point. Any one who has ever modeled anyone else can attest to its fruits. We're more than welcome to debate this point.
I have started a thread on my forum:
http://ourwalkinchrist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=45#45
I just wanted to share. Much of your analysis stems from what I consider false interpretations and assumptions that I've already outlined. Some other statements of yours plays on communal assumptions and the emotional tenderness that this topic brings up.
Good job, Freud! You pinned it! It has nothing to do with the fact that I listened to this tape over 30 times and have heard the entire thing, not just 15 seconds or so. My analysis is not false interpretation, John Crowe is simply insulting people that have a job. It was taken out of a long string of comments where he is insulting people who criticize theor business.
If comparing yourself to others is fruitless, why duplicate?
More blatant dishonesty from supposed "christian" xanadustc. Crowe talks about a comparison between two situations, and Xanadustc deliberately comments upon if it was an absolute.
Xanadustc then directs us to the blatant dishonesty of Jon Taylors' ridiculous "roulette" analysis. Do you really think success in business is based on chance and not time and effort? Len Clemens has a good analysis of Taylors claims here -
http://www.marketwaveinc.com/articles/Zealots09.asp
I'm an atheist - but if I happen to be wrong - see you in hell, Tom.
Thanks Insider, we got it the first three times you linked to it:)
Frankly, I pointed out where the problems were on the other thread.
Have you listened to this tape, Insider?
John is NOT comparing 2 situations, as I said before, John Crowe is simply insulting people that have a job. It was taken out of a long string of comments where he is insulting people who criticize their business.
Tell me where I am dishonest again? I am still waiting. You want to attack my character, yet you provide no evidence for where I am at fault?
Have I run you out of logic so now you wish to resort to insult. Bring on the issue, debate the point, don't shoot the messenger.
Hey Rara,
I've read a couple of your posts and I believe there was recent post featuring you.
I really do think that Quixtar should have more checks and balances on what their IBOs are doing. They are the face of Quixtar, whether or not they like it.
Personally, I think we are on the same page. My sincere apologies for assuming you discounted Quixtar.
So to answer your question:
How would you explain BWW leaders and IBOs (just check out the comments sections in this blog) saying that most, if not all, people not in this biz are broke?
I would say its because of poor money management skill.
Btw, I believe you are reinterpreting what Mr. Crowe said and inserting your own qualifiers into his statements.
I really don't know what to say about this, Rara. I'd love to hear what more you have to add particularly how I qualified his statement.
dmm,
What's your interpretation of Crowe's message?
Mitesh
me!,
I am glad an IBO finally acknowledges that Q should have more checks and balances. In addition to that, I would say the different systems need to stop being abusive and manipulative.
me!> So to answer your question:
How would you explain BWW leaders and IBOs (just check out the comments sections in this blog) saying that most, if not all, people not in this biz are broke?
I would say its because of poor money management skill.
rara> Read the question I asked again. I didn't ask why people are broke. I asked why the "leaders" say people are broke just by virtue of not being in the biz. First of all there are broke people both inside and outside the biz. In fact, I daresay that a lot of people go broke from system expenses. A lot of ex-IBOs on this site and on the forum will attest to that.
Also, it seems they define broke as not being a millionaire like the diamonds and above, that is, if they are all really millionaires. However, before the biz and my Q-induced debt, I was (and still am) making less than $20K as a graduate student, but I was well-provided for and was even able to put away quite a bit of money into a savings account. I was never broke because I lived below my means.
My point is that they have no right to make a blanket statement about everyone outside the biz being broke when they don't know their financial situations. There are many people outside the biz who are rich for several reasons (good job, good money management skills, inheritance, the lottery, etc.), just as there are many struggling financially, also for many reasons (poor money management, unfortunate circumstances like health, badly paying jobs, etc.). Yes, if they want to think that the biz is all that, they have the right to, but they don't have to vilify people who quit or refuse to join, whatever the reason may be.
About adding words to Mr Crowe's message - I'm sorry, I thought you were quoting Crowe when you were actually quoting X. That was my error and I apologize. I still stand by my statement that I believe X's interpretation is more accurate. The context of the statements, which we can get from the rest of the speech (and which I admittedly haven't heard) will aid in interpretation.
Finally, I want to commend you for being cordial and not insulting us ex-IBOs and non-IBOs like so many current IBOs do and for using good grammar, spelling, and sentence structure so that reading your posts is not painful.
Hi Xan,
Just wanted to respond to your post.
No, I was clearly referring to financial success. There is a little prinicple that us educated people learned called "Context clues".
The only reason I questioned it was because in your original post the context you provided changed to 'contributing to society'. Here's how you started off the initial post:
This week, we learn that we are not doing good
Then you followed with the excerpt and some comments on 'comparing ourselves to others'. The first instance you make a comment on the nature of work is in this excerpt:
Never mind the fact that work is a great thing to do. Whether you are giving your skills to better mankind or to just put food on the table, you are a person deserving of all the love and respect that any other person would get.
So you can see how I was capable of seeing you were talking about 'contributing to society'. Obviously, I think he was talking about 'doing well'. Personally, I don't think you do a good job of making the distinction.
No, he is literally making fun of people who have a job. Listen to the tape and it will all become clear.
From the little excerpt you provided, I don't think he's making fun of them. I think he's making fun of people giving a flaccid excuse for not giving any real time for self examination. To see if they are doing what they love. That's my interpretation. But if you think greater context will clarify this, I'd love to listen to a longer excerpt. Sorry, but I don't own that tape.
No, he was saying that if YOUR financial portfolio was not the same at Britt or Miller, you are not doing good, thus, I need to compare unimportant matters like my social status to theirs in order to test how good a person I am.
Actually he questions the prospects standards for 'good', which is a relative term. And then he gives a baseline of 'having to go to work'.
I am going to argue from a Christian standpoint: If you feel 'imprisoned' by work, you need to get on your knees in prayer because you are violating a command of the Lord found in Matthew 6. Go to a pastor if you need help at this point.
I'm gonna shy away from 'argue from the Christian standpoint'. But I agree, that finding rewarding work is important. But many people stay at passionless work because they need to pay the bills. And the time and work it takes to find passionate work isn't available to them.
(as a sidenote, I'm not sure what in Matt. 6 you wanted me to find. I saw several different lessons being given: charity, the Lord's prayer, fasting, and heavenly rewards.)
My analysis is not false interpretation, John Crowe is simply insulting people that have a job. It was taken out of a long string of comments where he is insulting people who criticize theor business.
Obviously, I disagree, but I only have to comment on what you've given me.
And please don't be so condensing. I don't appreciate it.
Rara,
Sorry. Misread your questions... Funny how the meaning of something can change when you miss a pesky three letter word like 'not'.
Personally, I've never heard anyone make a blanket statement like that. They'd be, not only irresponsible to do so, but terribly foolish as well. They even know better when they point to Bill Gates and others as financial succeses.
And shame on anyone who believes that blatant lie! They must have been living under a rock and have far greater problems to face than financial security (in my opinion of course!)
I think a lot of people join Q b/c they are always in and out of being broke and they see hope in the system. Lord knows I did! Just kind of curious, Rara, why did you join Q?
But I agree. They probably should be careful when making blanket statements (but that's just how I think everyone should operate when making blanket statements!) But there's definitely power in blanket statements. And for anyone starting of a business endeavor that requires approaches, they need a will of steel that shields them from rejection. And blanket statements create that shield. Definitely not an inclusive and understanding shield, but a shield nonetheless.
Finally, I want to commend you for being cordial and not insulting us ex-IBOs and non-IBOs like so many current IBOs do and for using good grammar, spelling, and sentence structure so that reading your posts is not painful.
You're welcome! :) But I'm not an IBO.
I had said>Finally, I want to commend you for being cordial and not insulting us ex-IBOs and non-IBOs like so many current IBOs do and for using good grammar, spelling, and sentence structure so that reading your posts is not painful.
Then me! replied>You're welcome! :) But I'm not an IBO.
Oh, so that explains it! :) ;)
So are you an ex-IBO? I am wondering how much exposure you've had to any of the systems, because if you were in BWW like X and I were (I am still in, technically), you would probably conclude that his interpretation is not far off.
Also take a look at some of the comments of IBOs that just visit once or twice, comment, and then fly off into the sunset. You'll see that no matter what was in Mr. Crowe and other business leaders' heads, many IBOs take that perceived message to heart.
The business "leaders" have a lot of responsibility and as such, they should be more careful about what they say. However, I think they mean everything they say.
E.g., in a very popular CD (used for prospecting in BWW and WWDB), Greg Duncan makes fun of people who go to work everyday and likens them to sheep. There is no need for such insults, really. They should just say their biz is good without putting other people down.
I don't think I'm qualified to interpret Mr. Crowe's statement. I have not heard the whole tape and do not know enough about Mr. Crowe to take a guess at what he meant. I can only take his words at face value. Sure Xandustic could be duping me into believing his interpretation by only giving me tiny sound-bites, but from what I know of big pins in AmQuix, and what the words say, I'm more inclined to believe Xan's interpretation over any other.
RARA, Me!,
I have a question about the statement made in the posts you two have going back and forth.
"I really do think that Quixtar should have more checks and balances on what their IBOs are doing. They are the face of Quixtar, whether or not they like it."
I would think that IBO's are really the face of the system or LOS they belong too. I say that for these reasons. Quixtar makes a point in the rules to show that IBO's do not work for or represent Quixtar, secondly, most if not all training comes from uplines and not Quixtar.
My personal example comes from BWW, my former LOS. A member used to where BWW on a smock while demonstrating Artistry and their whole recruitment and STP involved BWW and rarely mentioned Quixtar. I think the general public is duped into thinking Quixtar(amway) is bad because they really don't know what BWW is but they do know what Quixtar is.
I personally don't like Quixtar or the LOS, and only joined for some complex personal reasons. I did get out with a full refund, but I had to go through quixtar customer service to get it.
I meant to say WEAR a smock. I typicaly use proper spelling and grammar
anotheribo,
I think what me! meant (me!,correct me if I am wrong) is that the public's perception of Quixtar is based on actions of IBOs, not necessarily that IBOs officially represent Q. Of course, Q is legitimate on paper, but various LOS's have ruined Q's rep (and Q did little to stop them).
Unfortunately, a lot of people may not be as knowledgeable as you and may not differentiate between Q and the motivational organizations. Even though a lot of IBOs don't mention Q up front, eventually prospects will find out about the connection to the corp.
Too bad for the corp though. If they had stopped the crap in the first place, they wouldn't have this terrible reputation.
I do agree, and the whole misleading by IBO's who are recruiting is just one more thing I don't really agree with. You can add it to the misleading statements by most IBO's who say they are a health and beauty business.
My personal example comes from BWW, my former LOS. A member used to where BWW on a smock while demonstrating Artistry and their whole recruitment and STP involved BWW and rarely mentioned Quixtar.
That's awesome! I think these are some of the processes that Quixtar should strongly encourage without encroaching on the autonomy of an IBO.
xanadustc: here's a logic test for you.
African Elephants are bigger than Indian Elephants. Does that mean Indian Elephants aren't big?
Crowns are "doing better" than people with jobs. Does that mean people with jobs aren't (or can't) do well?
Crowe compared being a Crown to having a job. You then made the statement -"So, if I need to go to work to pay my bills, I am not doing good, huh? " which has no logical connection to the statements you quoted from Crowe.
You're either being intellectually dishonest or authentically stupid. Which is it?
Re Jon Taylor I'll let Clement's paper speak for itself, it doesn't need me defending it.
anotheribo: while I wholeheartedly agree with you about problems with some IBOs being deceitful, I can't remotely see how it's being deceitful saying they're in the health & beauty business when those products are easily >50% of the volume.
Check out this post on another blog from someone named "Insider". Looks deceptive to me.
From: "Insider"
Subject: Network 21
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 04:00:53 +0100
Hi there,
I came across your comments on Network 21. I've worked with both Amway and Network 21 for several years, both in Australia and other countries. Most of what I read on your site indicates you truly don't understand how the Amway opportunity works or how Network 21 works with it.
Firstly, I'd like to address the issue of the relationship between N21 and Amway and IBOs. For an IBO, both Network 21 and Amway are suppliers. An IBO is neither an employee of Amway or Network 21. The IBOAmway link is obviously stronger than a normal product supplier, it is more like a franchising agreement. Any IBO denying a link with Amway is obviously being dishonest, and in my experience, as stated by your other correspondent, Network 21 does not condone or teach that. We work very closely with Amway.
Insider,
Crowe compared being a Crown to having a job. You then made the statement -"So, if I need to go to work to pay my bills, I am not doing good, huh? " which has no logical connection to the statements you quoted from Crowe.
No, Insider, once again, John is clearly making insults as personal attacks on anyone who does not agree with his business. That is context. There are a whole series of these. Have you listened to this tape? Do you understand the concept of a 'context'?
His comment was meant as an INSULT to people who work a job and have rejected Quixtar.
JoeCool18 - where is the dishonesty in anything I said?
Xanadustc - nowhere in the quotes you gave did John Crowe say anything remotely like "we learn that we are not doing good (as long as we have a job, anyway)."
If he said this elsewhere in the tape, then why didn't you quote it?
I see Bill Gates is to stop working with Microsoft in a few years in order to devote more time to his foundation - a foundation whose actions have been estimated to save the lives of 10000 children a day. Network of Caring, founded by Network 21 leaders, has fostor sponsored over 50,000 children in partnership with World Vision.
I consider both Bill Gates and the N21 leaders to be "doing better" than I am in a whole range of ways. But I'm, not so insecure in myself that I consider that an insult and have to attack them, as you do in your ad hominem straw man at the end of your post.
I would like to thank dmm for his reply to my posting that started this long discussion, albeit way off the topic featured by both, the article on John Crowe's statements and my posting.
I am surprised that virtually no one is able to debate, least stay close to the topic itself. Am I too of a challenge for this audience? I am just another individual like you and I.
Hi,
I am in Amway and as our group focuses on retailing the products to consumers, I assume it can be considered as direct selling, though we also sponsor other people to do the same. After reading the pdf document I couldn't find where the information "you have a better shot of getting rich playing the roulette wheel in Vegas than making money in an MLM" came from. Amway is an MLM product based direct selling company, isn't it?
Considering our group, I cannot even see, where are those 10% of people who are losing money, but I cannot speak for other groups.
insider> But I'm, not so insecure in myself that I consider that an insult and have to attack them, as you do in your ad hominem straw man at the end of your post.
DI> You do seem to be insecure enough to attack and insult people on this board and to tell them that you'll "see them in hell". And you've never been above ad hominem straw men either.
JT,
It comes from Jon Taylors research, most of which was conducted on Amway. The link is in the original post.
Insider, don't get too proud of what you are doing. It ain't all about you. Remember that even People Temple started out as a charitable organization, it became corrupt when the person in charge thought that he was behind it all.
It is good that your group is doing social good, but why are you side stepping the issues to try to build yourself up?
Copyright laws restrict a person from using large clips of material, thus I need to keep the quotes short. I always try my hardest to keep them in context. My comment about not doing good is blatently obvious from listening to it. What else is there in cmparing your income to that of someone else and then concluding that if you need to go to work, you are not doing good?
Have you considered the possibility that you are digging a very deep hole for yourself?
Cristian,
I read your post. It just sounds like you know what you want. Go for it!
Secondly, I didn't read your post because a large block of text usually makes my head spin. Just sayin'.
me!
So are you an ex-IBO? I am wondering how much exposure you've had to any of the systems, because if you were in BWW like X and I were (I am still in, technically), you would probably conclude that his interpretation is not far off.
I was in BWW for a few months (and I'm still technically an IBO). But the time I was in it, I felt I went to all the events, gave presentations, bought products, dressed in my suits, listen and read (so on and so forth.)
I can't in anyway argue that there's some tangental condensation towards people who are 'sheeplike', but it just doesn't bother me either. On the other hand, I don't agree with the interpretation because I've also seen some genuine goodness in these people who really want to see you succeed in life. Just my humble observation.
Also take a look at some of the comments of IBOs that just visit once or twice, comment, and then fly off into the sunset. You'll see that no matter what was in Mr. Crowe and other business leaders' heads, many IBOs take that perceived message to heart.
I've been lurking on this blog since before I started because I wanted to see various perspectives. So I've seen what IBOs have said. And I've also seen on Xan has replied. Neither are foreign to any standard web bboard activity. Its the basic behavior you can get away with when (internally justify) someone's a stranger and stated a stance that contrary to your identity. Neither side has been pristine, but a conversation is conversation. Its just an opportunity to hear some differing views.
The business "leaders" have a lot of responsibility and as such, they should be more careful about what they say. However, I think they mean everything they say.
I certainly think they mean it. But I think they're speaking to a certain audience who they know they can say it to. For example my xenophobic tendancies against Martians wouldn't go over too well on a bboard about aliens. So I limit that type of talk to me and my anti-Martian militia. :P
E.g., in a very popular CD (used for prospecting in BWW and WWDB), Greg Duncan makes fun of people who go to work everyday and likens them to sheep. There is no need for such insults, really. They should just say their biz is good without putting other people down.
I personally think that most people are sheeplike. Nice or not, its pretty true. Sheep are nice and docile. I enjoy sheep. But a sheep will never challenge me to become the person I know I have to be.
I also understand the reason why they put people down. It creates distance between your old lifestyle and the Q lifestyle. There's power in that distance. Any case, the ability to elevate someone to their potential is difficult one to achieve.
I do not believe being an IBO qualifies a person as being less sheep like, one is just trading a boss sheppard for an upline sheppard. At least as an employee my "sheep like" behavior ends when the workday does, after that period I am free to pursue the choices "I" want without outside influence.
Quixtar IBO's are constantly in "herd" mode, yes your taught that leadership and business is your game but the truth is your not expected to lead as much as emulate everything about the one above you. Independent thought is not the soup de jour of an IBO.
I personally don't have to call my employer and ask permission to purchase a car I want or any other personal decision. I am not pressured to tape speak "positive" drivel.
So who is the sheep?...
After further thought I would say that Quixtar is closer to a dog sled team, a bunch of people looking at the others behinds with only a few lead dogs that have a good view, maybe Alticor is the guy on the sled.
insider,
No one said dishonest. But when you sign up for N21, are you an N21 distributor or an AMWAY distributor?
That's different from working closely
in my opinion.
Me!,
The term "You are not doing good" is a general expression that is contextless on it's own. The meaning must be derived from the surrounding text. I was always talking about the job situation, nothing more.
The part in Matt 6 I was talking about is when we are commanded to not worry about the things that we need. That should have also been clear from the context. Since you are not going to argue the Christian point, ignore it.
Frankly, I don't think it was me not being clear, you seem to be the only person who did not figure it out. It also appears you have a difficult time with context gathering, perhaps this is the issue? And that is not condecending, it is clearing up my argument based on your error from failure to gather the context of the writing.
You seem to want to tell me that John is talking about something other than when I posted, yet you have not heard the tape? I have included the stock code, you are still in BWW, order it. I have listened to this tape many, many times, laughing at this all the way, going right along with it until I woke up and saw how arrogent John is being.
Me!
I don't think that is awesome because and IBO is just that, independent. If anything the IBO should have his or her business name on the smock. by advertising BWW they are just suckering another person into wasting money into the motivational business. I am sure BWW didn't show or teach anyone how to sell artistry. BWW might have shown them how to buy illegal stocks but not artistry
DI - calling someone dishonest when they lie and deceive is not an ad hominem attack.
XanD- you give a quote and a conclusion. The quote did not support the conclusion. If the rest of the tape supports the conclusion, then why did you post a section that doesn't support your conclusion? I am willing to accept that of the two options I gave, perhaps you're not being intellectually dishonest
JC18 - the "distributor" term is no more, but when it was around, I was both. You're trying to create a false dichotomy.
insider, so seriously you become an N21 IBO and Amway IBO? Please explain how this works.
Insider,
You are beyond rational thought. I have defended every single point you made (unless I missed one, if so, please SOMEONE ELSE point it out.) I am simply done with you on this thread.
In conslusion:
I am not being 'dishonest', thank you for finally accepting that fact.
Ding Ding Ding..round over...see you next week.
My conclusion is fully supported by the quote given.
insider> Once the business is built it could easily be maintained with no more than 15 hrs a week. So this is equivalent to 125K in a 40hr/wk job, without accounting for tax advantages.
Speaking of dishonesty, was that statement
1. Dishonest?
2. "Just a theory" you happened to pull out of the thin air because you had to make some rebuttal?
3. The Truth?
And it's #3, surely you will humor us with proof/links etc...?? Hmmm.... I didn't know Quixtar was actually surveying IBOs for NET profit and 'time' data??
Dawson,
I don't think I'd ever argue that Q isn't sheep-like. In fact all your reason are correct. But it doesn't refute that most 'workers' are sheep like.
All I'm trying to explain is the 'logic' that BWW uses to inspire an IBO. Nothing more.
me!
XAN:
I am going to argue from a Christian standpoint: If you feel 'imprisoned' by work, you need to get on your knees in prayer because you are violating a command of the Lord found in Matthew 6. Go to a pastor if you need help at this point.
How bout some verses next time? I could have easily ignored your reference, but I didn't. I hope you extend me the same.
Xan:
you seem to be the only person who did not figure it out. It also appears you have a difficult time with context gathering, perhaps this is the issue?
Actually, it would seem it was me and everyone else who disagreed with you who didn't figure it out.
Most people have induced from their previous interaction with Q that it is not outside their scope to see your interpretation. Each has gone on to admit that the context is limited. Funny. You go ahead and argue that the context is limited:
You seem to want to tell me that John is talking about something other than when I posted, yet you have not heard the tape?
And yet you go ahead and call up consensus:
you seem to be the only person who did not figure it out.
To strengthen your argument.
Your argument is a straw man. Burn that baby down!
You really take this crap personally. Too bad. Are you ever nice to anyone who disagrees with you?
ME!!!!
Insider: "Crowe talks about a comparison between two situations, and Xanadustc deliberately comments upon if it was an absolute."
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
Me!,
How bout some verses next time? I could have easily ignored your reference, but I didn't. I hope you extend me the same.
Matt 6 was the verse, it is embedded in that chapter. You did however say that you were not going to touch that one, so I dropped the issue. The 6th chapter of Mathew has the part regarding working for your needs. There is obviously common sense involved, but Jesus tells us in that chapter that we do not need to work ourselves to death for those things, as "That is what the Gentiles do." That was my point.
Actually, it would seem it was me and everyone else who disagreed with you who didn't figure it out.
Your particular arguments all centered around a context swap, which is what I was arguing about. Christian Anton defended his position being the opposite of mine, that is OK, but he got the context and understood what my arguement was. Insider also got the context, but disagreed with my conclusion. He clearly said that "John is comparing two situations", namely working at a job and working Quixtar. It was you alone that was arging that I switched context throughout the middle. That is why I sought to correct your view on what I wrote, after all, if I write an obscure poem, you can give me an interpretation, but if it does not line up with mine as the author, your interpretation is simply wrong. The same goes here, but since everyone else seemed to understand, I question your interpretation. I have indeed written things before that were not clear, and I corrected those after several people seemed to misunderstand. Does that clear it up?
You really take this crap personally. Too bad. Are you ever nice to anyone who disagrees with you?No I don't take it personally, I am in debate over the issue. I know that it can be hard to tell the difference over the internet, but that is the case.
And I am not being 'not nice', you are dropping a bomb on me that I am wrong in my anaylsis, do you not expect me to defend my position? If I am proven wrong, I will simply chnge my view, but no one has provided me with creditble evidence to the contrary.
"not being nice" would be resorting to personal attacks, I have not done that. It is simply fruitless to do that, and gets nothing accomplished.
DI> calling someone dishonest when they lie and deceive is not an ad hominem attack.
insider> What about telling them to goto hell? Or how about calling someone a racist when they're making a perfectly valid observation? As far as ad hominems and straw men go, you're the worst one on this board, so you can lose the holier than thou attitude.
the national deficit is why having a job will not cut it as individuals can not keep up with a double digit interest rate, low cost of living increase and growthing instability in the workplace (money is not important when have it does not determine whether or not you eat or sleep in a home)
you have to work you don't have to struggle
onelife2live>> the national deficit is why having a job will not cut it as individuals can not keep up with a double digit interest rate, low cost of living increase and growthing instability in the workplace (money is not important when have it does not determine whether or not you eat or sleep in a home)
And your point is.... (never mind that I couldn't make a head or tail of that sentence)??
perceptive - yes, LOAs and A/Q do do surveys regarding how much time people put in. But how about you go and find some Q-12 platinums and ask any of them if they work 40+hrs a week hmmm?
No surprise to see the normal standard of the critbots though. All critics claims can be made without any evidence whatsoever, or even when contrary evidence exists, but A/Q supporters have to have multiple footnotes and peer-reviewed published statistical papers for even the most obvious of statements.
What a bunch of hypocrites.
DI - he did more than just make an observation. He's an out and out bigot. The posts in that thread make it clear, aso do many other of his comments over time. If you're going to try and defend it - well, says more about you than me. You want an ad hominem attack? Here you go. This board has been overtaken by religious fruitcakes, racist bigots, and outright idiots. Folk like QBlog, PW, heck, even Larsen, I had some respect for, though in each case that too has been diminishing of late. I'm up for intelligent discourse, but not this rubbish. Ponzi schemes? Biblical quotes at 50 paces? The outright dishonesty of continually repeating and affirming wholly discredited critbot talking points? Good grief. You're welcome to echo amongst yourselves, I have better things to do. Frankly I've had enough, you lot are pathetic.
Insider,
A broad brush is the favorite tool of a child.
Please keep your word and leave. Save your hate for somewhere else.
insider> DI - he did more than just make an observation. He's an out and out bigot. The posts in that thread make it clear, aso do many other of his comments over time. If you're going to try and defend it - well, says more about you than me.
DI> That's funny, insider, the only person that that seems "clear" to is you. Everyone else on the board seemed to get the point that willy was trying to make. Or are you trying to tell us that family ties and traditions are the same across all peoples and cultures?
Now, since you've been on the board, you seem to be the only one who constantly 'misses' obvious points. Since you're not a complete idiot, I see that as deliberate tactic designed to obfuscate debate. Same goes for your repeated use of straw men.
So yes, you should keep your word and leave. I may not agree with everything posted on this forum, but it's been calmer without you there (were you banned after your unsubstantiated accusations against lawDawg?)
The funny thing is that you have brought valuable material to the board. Its your complete lack of proper debate skills that makes you a nuisance.
Aw, insider's a bit touchy when teh tables of logic are turned against him?
You alway make claims that hypothetical groups and situations don't work yet here you are using on. You deserve the criticism you are getting.
insider> This board has been overtaken by religious fruitcakes, racist bigots, and outright idiots.
Joe> Which one are you?
insider> Folk like QBlog, PW, heck, even Larsen, I had some respect for, though in each case that too has been diminishing of late.
Joe> That's your problem.
insider> I'm up for intelligent discourse
Joe> Then stop hurling insults at others.
insider> I have better things to do.
Joe> And what's stopping you?
insider> Frankly I've had enough, you lot are pathetic.
Joe> Thanks, see you in the next life brother.
Insider>> he did more than just make an observation. He's an out and out bigot. The posts in that thread make it clear, aso do many other of his comments over time. If you're going to try and defend it - well, says more about you than me.
Can you believe this guy???? He's even more childish than Brad - Brad's tantrums don't quite match this!
Ok, folks, here are some of Willy's (the guy Insider is trying to paint as a bigot) posts trying to make the point that Amway/Quixtar's "image" has been permanently tarnished in the white community (in other words, where it has had the longest history, North America):
They will ALWAYS have a NEW ANGLE.
when they run out of new angles, they'll just go to Countries or demographic groups that haven't heard the "old angles"... yet
North Americans exploited North Americans; other groups will learn to exploit their groups too, with a little help from their 'friends'.
That's the duplication.
However, understand that China and India have LOTS of people, lots of relatives, lots of relationships.
The business is not sustaining itself in North America.
THAT is why the emerging markets, and demographic groups, grow so rapidly. There are no previous negative results (saturation) to deal with.
maybe the answer, is the growth in foreign countries, or certain demographic groups, where there is no "Family History" of bad nutrition (mental nutrition), YET.
Lot's of growth THERE, whereas, I believe LOTS of DEATH, here in the US, due to poor nutrition (mental nutrition), "Family History"
7. THAT'S LUCKY. IN FACT IT IS LIKE HITTING THE LOTTERY.
Now. Somebody please explain to me, which one of those statements sound racist???!!!!
And the reason for Willy, incurring INSIDER's wrath? I believe it is this comment made by Willy (which, btw, I believe is dead-on accurate):
WILLY>> I have a different opinion: #1: You are LYING. It IS a big deal to you.
Peter island pics! http://blogstar-thequixtarblog.blogspot.com/
What a great business! Thank God for men like Dexter Yager, Bill Britt, John Crowe, Rocky Covington, etc!!!
Not that I'm not enjoying this extended look at Xan's entry with over 60 comments, but I sorta missed the Farcical Desk on Friday and a Qblog Update.
Dave
Yeah they are GREAT men, that's why it's such an honor to get the privilage to spend time on the beaches with nutcases like them. Isn't it amazing that once you go through all the crap to be a diamond and are told all the way up that you are your own person and that we are all equal, but then at the same time all these ibo's circle around a man by the name of Larry Winters and pretend he's a god. You can keep your Larry Winters and Bill Britt, I'd rather be liked by my god and no suffer in the long run to follow fake people like them. It's all a joke and lies
Jon Taylor is a hack who has no real concept of the Network Marketing industry and can not stand behind his so called research.
He used to have a listing of Network Marketing companies on his site with a comparison to his 5 gibberish points about pyramid schemes. All gone. I suspect that some company called him on his meaningless rantings.
"If you have to go to work, you ain't doing very good."
I wonder how many IBOs would take this to heart? Of all the MLM participants I know, not one is able to support themselves full-time on their MLM sales.
Did insider and brad go into hibernation?
I think insider got frustrated when he realized that people weren't buying his BS debating tactics of straw men, misdirection and 'only my hypotheticals can ever be right' anymore, he threw a fit and left. Good riddance.
Funny because he always told me that hypothetical examples were worthless yet all he ever did was use hypothetical examples. Oh well, the dude was insulting people here so no loss.
INSIDER>> perceptive - yes, LOAs and A/Q do do surveys regarding how much time people put in. But how about you go and find some Q-12 platinums and ask any of them if they work 40+hrs a week hmmm?
No surprise to see the normal standard of the critbots though. All critics claims can be made without any evidence whatsoever, or even when contrary evidence exists, but A/Q supporters have to have multiple footnotes and peer-reviewed published statistical papers for even the most obvious of statements.
What a bunch of hypocrites.
Anybody else notice Insider's deflection again? "Footnotes", "peer-reviewed published statistical papers"???? Good grief! All I asked was for a link showing the Net Profit "DATA" for the platinums that he likes to cite so much! Correct me if I am wrong, but I have never seen that data published by Quixtar?? "Hours" put into the business by Platinums? Never seen that, published by Quixtar, either?
But seeing as how I believe this guy is more of an "Insider" than he is admitting, I am thinking we will shortly see a link on the Quix or thisbiznow website. Porkchopjim had a similar experience - a link that had been dead for months on the thisbiznow website suddenly becomes active after Insider claims that such a link existed.
"Platinums just work 15 hours a week maintaining their business" That's an "Obvious Statement"?? On which planet? The theoretical little world that you live in, Insider? Every single platinum that was willing to show me proof (schedule Cs) was barely breaking even or losing money.
You are a piece of work, Insider.
insider claims that he does not work for Alticor, Amway, quixtar, N21 or any affiliate, yet there are some
interesting things about the guy.
Regards, the platinums, I forgot to add - every platinum that I got to observe closely was working their butts off.
Insider: "No surprise to see the normal standard of the critbots though. All critics claims can be made without any evidence whatsoever, or even when contrary evidence exists, but A/Q supporters have to have multiple footnotes and peer-reviewed published statistical papers for even the most obvious of statements.
What a bunch of hypocrites."
He's got some nerve! On the forum, he is the one that always demands, as he says, "multiple footnotes," etc for the critics' claims. Talk about hypocrisy!
The funniest thing is that he thinks no one can see through his BS.
I can't believe there have been 71 previous entries on something as stupid as taking a statement, then twisting it every which way, out of context. The purpose of the statement was to say you could have a better lifestyle if you owned your own business, considering time, money, and security. If you don't get it, this is too bad. The shame is you are ignoring the system scam, which creates the bulk of the net income for the upper level IBO's. This fact is worthy of 70X71 comments.
Ah "critbots", doesn't that remind you guys of "Tony"?
In guess insider has sunk to a new low.
Tony...? Is that you...? Tony?
Hey iamquixtar, Can you actually think for yourself?
Ron,
Yes, are you able to think of a good question to ask, other than "can you actually think for yourself?"
By the way, I tried calling Quixtar Customer Service, to find out the NET PROFIT DATA, that INSIDER says Quixtar collects. But they weren't very co-operative - said they couldn't volunteer that info since I am not an IBO. When I asked if the information is available on the Quixtar website of the thisbiznow website, she said that information is not published on the Quixtar website, and that I would have to ask the IBO who contacted me, to get that information. Can any current IBO try to get this info from Quixtar? I don't know if any of you guys are active still - Joecool, Imran, Drew, Tom, PW... anybody??
I am still officially an IBO. What info do you want, exactly? It may take me a while to get to it since I'm kinda busy at the mo.
Rara,
If you can call them, and find out if the Corp collects "NET Profit Data" (NOT Gross BONUSES paid out by the corporation). i.e. How much does the average Platinum NET AFTER expenses. It would be great if you could get the data for other PIN levels also. As far as I know the Corp has never surveyed IBOs for NET profit data.... Insider claims otherwise - I would love to see the info.
I am not active and I could not get info from quixtar either.
"This week, we learn that we are not doing good (as long as we have a job, anyway)."
You have a job just to make a living. Money, is reason #1 why people go to a job, not because they like it by necessity. Having a job is like surviving. Why? You live paycheck after paycheck, year after year until you retire or die and have to start from zero every month! At least if it was residual monthly income regardless of the fact that you are paid on an hourly/daily rate (even 6/7/8/9/etc $ per hour) but it is not! That is why a job does not appeal to me. I used to have a job, on contract at Yellow Pages (I live in Canada), but now I am up in the air hoping to get a job. Personally, I do not have the job mentality. I do not want to work untill 65, from 9 AM to 5 PM or 8 AM to 4 PM or nightshift or whatever just to survive and save money if that can be done comfortably without doing overtime or getting (very unlikely) continuous raises for the same amount of 40 work hours a week. For me, a job just doesn't make the cut. I do not like overtime, I do not like to be limited by the amount I make based on hourly/daily rates, I do not want ot be around people I do not want to be around, I do not want stress from coowrkers/supervisors/managers and who else, I do not want to be told when to leave from work, when to go towork, when to take vacations, how long the vacations are supposed to be, in short, I do not like to be told what my chioces are. I am the sole entity who decides what is best and not. I am open to suggestions, improvements, but not to small, negative thinkers who just accept what they see, not what they can do to build a better future. If that comment was too harsh a statement for you it is meant to be.
Post-mortem: Please, for one, excuse any spelling mistakes. For two, English is not my native language.
Posted by: Cristian Anton | June 14, 2006 5:09 PM