« This DeVos Is Cool | Main | Are You Listening? »
May 29, 2006
Monday Reader Mail: 78
By QBlog in Reader Mail
I don't get much Reader Mail from outside North America so I'm excited to share this particular submission from down under. As always, I left the message intact without edits and my comments appear in bold.
name: Shane S.
date: May 16, 2006
message: Do you actually have any brain function for business success. Have you heard of intellectual property.
Yes, I'm very familiar with Intellectual Property and how the Internet has challenged traditional ideas about its protection and distribution.
I have built a Q12 Platinum business in Australia. I have built a sales program (for instant cash for my IBO team, a lead generation program from this sales program to find new IBOs. You want people like me who attract traffic to the website and spending - to go and speak at a seminar, and have 1000s of people around Australia learn what I teach (i am a high school teacher) & take my speeches, which I try to make inspirational as well as educational - and then give away that knowledge which I have accumulated through experience. How do you propose that a training system be sustainbale when people are not paid.
I've never suggested that people should not be paid for their work. I do know that training a Quixtar (or Amway) downline is a requirement of the Business Rules and rewards are provided (in the form of a thriving downline) if done correctly.
Oh thats right if the payment amount for speakers is above a limit you decide then it is ok. Of course your bum chum BO (redcoat) Short who I have met several times - took heaps of money for speaking in Australia - oh the integrity of following a man who purchased legs for Diamond qualifiaction. Poor Bo, he did not know what he was doing - he just got talked into being paid $20,000 for his Aussie tours.
Interesting comments. Is Shane condemning Short for his downline purchases and receiving money for speaking? Or are those actions to be commended? I've never defended Short's actions with Quixtar (or Amway) but merely sought to set the record straight regarding his involvement with that business.
Just so you know, the people that use ourt motivational training do grow, develop and get something out of it. Of course if we give it away as you stupidly suggest, then the value of the information declines. How do I know? - because when I download mp3s for free from the web, I don't listen to them a s closley as for the one s I pay for.
Using this logic the likelihood of a downline listening to motivational audio increases as the price increases. Why not charge $5,000 for each recorded seminar or rally?
You clown trouser, success has a price - in any field - I have spent 3 hours with Dexter once and I have no prtoblem with his free enterprise approach to being wealthy - from speeches and cds, functions - why? becasue business is about bums on seats - if you could attract people you deserve the money - of course you ability to influence large numbers of people in business probably does not exist.
Funny, I thought this business was about selling products. Silly me.
Do you have a problem with Bill gates, The Wal Mart family, Micheal Dell - who are your business heroes? Lets examine tehm and find out the price they paid for success.
Great question. Some of my business heroes include Steve Jobs, Sergey Brin & Larry Page, Jeff Bezos, Herbert Kelleher and Fred Smith.
Your proposal about the system is a s dumb ass as it gets. How do pay people people to put the system together if their is no profit? Of course you would argue that their should be your limits of profit set, once it is past that we should communise the system. Well done brains!
What I've suggested in the past is that Quixtar's motivational business be opened up to competition. Let a competitive marketplace decide the value of the tools businesses. Allow innovators to be disruptive and provide choice. Is that so wrong?
I'm glad people in Australia are reading the Quixtar BLOG. Maybe I should do an International Reader Mail once a month.
Comments
"You clown trouser." I like that.
I guess this IBO didn't read How to Win Friends and Influence People closely enough. I guess those principles apply only to prospects you are trying to suck into the system.
Look, I was in Amway for 3 years active. There is no problem with getting paid for your services but how about disclosing the system. Instead, prospects are lied to telling them how they are going to make money distributing products and then brainwashing them about needing the system of tapes and rallies (they're opotional but so is success). Of course, all of us who got sucked in should be ashamed of ourselves for not checking it out better.
The USA with it's alleged 'brain drain' has nothing to fear, apparently, from the Aussies. If, in fact, Shane is a high school teacher as he claims (I'm having my doubts).
I am again left wondering why so many, many, many Amway-apologists defend their beloved 'business' by attacking the intellectual capacity of the naysaysers. That they do it with deplorable grammar and syntax only adds to the irony.
And Insider is technically correct, IBO's could choose to get their motivation anywhere they like.
Unfortunately, the new IBO is a captive market, not realizing that the motivational pablum he is being provided (at substantial cost to himself) only serves to reinforce his devotion to his upline while lining said upline's pocket. Should an IBO recover enough brain cells after the sleep-deprivation and mind-control tactics, he is reminded that to be successful, you must 'duplicate'.
And supplying your own motivation is not 'duplication'.
Add to that the likelhood (or not) of continued support from upline who are no longer receiving their SOT monies, and success while seeking outside (cheaper) motivation is even less realistic.
CK,
IBOs are also free to duplicate where they source their support materials. Ask Tex ;-)
Insider, upline went nuts if they find u reading books not in their approved books. Do u know there's a list of approved books, outside that IBOs should not be reading?
U must be in some extreme leftist LOS ;)
(a)we're encouraged to read more than is available through our system.
(b)who care if they go nuts? That's their problem.
What the hell is a "clown trouser"? It's pretty amazing, I havent been back to this blog for about a year and I still instantly get all those feelings of disgust after reading Ambot comments. Website looks good Qblog, keep up the good work!
Shane,
As soon as you sell your motivational speech, CD, tape or whatever to your downline - your downline becomes your customers. And once you are making a profit off of them, you are no longer on their team. You just tell them you are so they will keep buying your so called motivation. The art that is practiced by Q-12 and above is to keep them buying the motivation. By the way, if any of them were making any money, they wouldn't need your motivation.
When we were in the Florence organization we had it made clear in no uncertain terms that you had to adhere to their motivational system only. You were not to even talk to anyone outside your upline/downline. We were taught to edify our upline from day one as one of our keys to success which meant we had to do everything they said as a matter of respect/edification. It was understood that the top people would only work with those that were completely plugged into the system. We were also told that no one received any profit from the motivational materials. I think if we had decided to start using/selling our own cheaper/free motivational materials they would have started to "forget" to tell us where/when meetings were occuring.
Qblog,
Question for you,
"What I've suggested in the past is that Quixtar's motivational business be opened up to competition. Let a competitive marketplace decide the value of the tools businesses."
Would competition drive the prices up or down?
If history is any indicator, competition generally produces better quality products at lower prices and it also nurtures innovation. There are many exceptions but all things being equal, a free market is preferable to a closed and protected market.
This may be off point (or not), but has anyone out there purchased a book(in the recommended reading list) from somewhere not affiliated with Q*? I did this a few times and my upline went nuts! I told him it was only because it was cheaper. He told me I could not duplicate myself that way. I think at that point he began to know that he was losing his hold on me.
Qblog,
I have to disagree with you on that. Opening up to the competition generally drives prices UP, not down.
However, with the higher prices, you may have a better product. Free isn't always the best.
Michael,
I believe that copeteition would drive the prices down. Why is it that IBOs stand by the "cheaper sin't always better" line? If you show me two identical books, one costs me $4, and the other $10.00, WHY on earth would I pay the 6 extra dollars just to support my upline?
BTW, Ever check all the A/Q tools for sale on Ebay? AQ tools wouldn't stand a chance on the real market.
GAE - yes, absolutely. The great majority of the time when I have compared priced, N21 has been cheaper - however, I have occasionally found materials on special elsewhere and bought them. Quite recently I purcashed a large number of kiyosaki "perfect business CDs" on special from an online supplier. I bought them for my group.
Michael,
Please help us understand how competition would drive up prices.
I thought that competition leads to lower prices and better quality.
A lot of people would pay higher prices for better quality, but few people would pay higher prices for crap, unless they are misinformed/Qool-aid drinking IBOs. (I was one of them, i.e., misinformed but thankfully not quite fully indoctrinated, until I saw the light. Hallelujah!)
Okay inquiring mind,
Here's a thought for you.
Let's say that we have one set of tapes like the true north series of tapes.
Then we have another set of tapes giving a set of training from people like..
Randy Gage,
Big Al,
Mike Filsaime,
Richard Brooke,
John Maxwell,
Seth Godin,
Kim Klaver
All the big league names in the industry.
So we open up the tools competition to leaders like these...
You think that series is going to cost less than the True North series?
I really don't think so.
Also, I have to ask, why on earth are you buying tools just to support your upline? That isn't the way a tool system is supposed to be designed.
Michael,
What in God's good name are you talking about?
Have you ever taken an economics course? There's not a businessman in the world (outside of Quixtar) who will say that competition generally drives prices up. You shouldn't be operating a business at all if you believe that.
Frankly, that's the stupidest thing I've heard in months.
Qblog,
What I am saying is that the more benefits you have by opening up to the competition, the higher the prices could go up. I am looking at it from a marketing point of view- not an economic point of view.
But looking at it from a competitor's marketing perspective, I see you, the competition, offering a higher price and I figure, if my products are equal to yours, I can sell significantly more units if I market it at a lower price then you. I may not make as much profit per unit, assuming costs are the same, but if I sell significantly more, I can more then make up the difference.
That's how competition drives down prices. Price is generally the number one factor determining why a person buys one product over another. If all systems are equal, eventually, one of them, once sales start dipping, will drop prices to boost sales. Eventually, others will follow when they see their market share dip. This will lead to a drive to find a way to cut costs so another price drop can take effect. It's all supply and demand, Michael. Lower cost, most the S&D curve to show higher demand, which leads to more sales.
Michael,
If the "True North" series has something of value, it will be marketable and in demand. If not,..well, that speaks for itself.
It sounds like you may be a believer in affirmative action.
inquiring mind,
Why would you want to open market the true north series anyways? That's what I am asking.
It's not difficult to market stuff online these days. You could easily design a niche marketing website for the true north series. What I am saying is that if you open it up to the market place, savvy net marketers could easily drive the prices up, not down.
Granted, the costs could go down because it could be electronically distributed.
Qblog's original proposal:
"What I've suggested in the past is that Quixtar's motivational business be opened up to competition. Let a competitive marketplace decide the value of the tools businesses. Allow innovators to be disruptive and provide choice."
To begin, I will admit my ignorance. I am assuming that "True North" is affiliated with an A/QMO, because when I googled True North alone, I didn't find anything that looked relevant to multi-level marketing. However, When I googled "True North Quixtar" then I found some info.
Assuming that the True North Series is part of Quixtar's motivational tools, and, in reference to Qblog's proposal, THAT is why I mentioned puting the True North series on the open market to see how it would do, to see if it had any value outside "the business".
Two things:
1. We were absolutley required to buy all books tapes and cd's from our upline system. It was made very clear that purchasing motivational and support materials from any other place was disloyal to the upline and system. This thought process was prevelent in both the BWW and WWDB systems, and I heard it in person, at small meetings and from major stages over the 20 years I was in the business.
2. Given the terrible "success" rate for the tools (and yes, I'm defining success COMPLETELY on financial terms, since you don't pay for tapes with personal growth or love) I don't see how a business case can be made for using more than a few core books and CDs (10 or 20 a year altogether at most).
3. If someone comes out with a system that helps even 10% of its faithful users go founders platinum, make sure to post it here. Ain't never going to happen.
OK, so that was three things... ;) sorry.
I'd be really fascinated to here what they did to enforce this. How on earth did they possibly stop you buying a book from amazon.com? Did they hire folk to follow you around and monitor your every move?
I'd be really fascinated to here what they did to enforce this. How on earth did they possibly stop you buying a book from amazon.com? Did they hire folk to follow you around and monitor your every move?
Nice strawman argument. You know exactly what he means because Quixmire never mentioned anything about enforcement. Only how it was disloyal to upline and therefore didn't help them or anyone else in the MO.
insider> I'd be really fascinated to here what they did to enforce this. How on earth did they possibly stop you buying a book from amazon.com? Did they hire folk to follow you around and monitor your every move?
Joe> You must come from a rare LOS where loyalty isn't preached. Of course it's not enforceable, but our upline certainly taught us to buy from upline, even if you could get the same book from B&N cheaper.
But we must always remember: Cheaper isn't always better, so, to be safe, always try to find the highest price for things you buy. Pay extra if you have to because that will insure higher quality. If an item is on sale, wait until the sale is over.
Here's how it was enforced:
Through intimidation, threats of withdrawing upline support/help, and guilt. Stories of how "so and so who is no longer in the business" blew out his whole group because he was disloyal to the upline by buying tools elsewhere.
For someone who has come to believe that their only path to success was through their upline, that is a very powerful form of motivation indeed.
uhuh. The ol' "I was brainwashed!" defence. Poor li'l old IBO couldn't make a decision for himself.
I'm starting to detect a thread of commonality amongst many of the ex-IBOs. They all seemed to think they had a job where they just did everything the boss said without question and didn't dare think for themselves.
I'm starting to detect a thread of commonality amongst many of the ex-IBOs. They all seemed to think they had a job where they just did everything the boss said without question and didn't dare think for themselves.
So I'm guessing you've chosen to ignore the endless accounts from ex-IBO's who've told of the backlash they've received from upline and such when they've tried to do things not explicitly recommened by their upline and the system.
insider:
The question here is not "couldn't you make your own decisions." The issue is: can this tools system be opened up to competition. I was stating the reasons why it isn't going to happen based on my very extensive experience. The type of intimidation and social pressure I mention is not isolated: the experience has been recounted by many, many others all over the web.
As for this statement you made:
"They all seemed to think they had a job where they just did everything the boss said without question and didn't dare think for themselves."
I would tell you that this type of mentality was EXACTLY the mentality that was encouraged - we were told no original thinking was required: it had all been figured out already and all we had to do was follow the system because the system was so successful. The numbers prove otherwise!
I am not excusing myself for falling for this foolishness. Although I was 20 when I "broke my kit" I began to see that there were major issues and still chose to cling to "the system."
But that doesn't excuse those who "preach the system" either. Nor does it excuse the Q corp for allowing this to go on, when they knew (from their own internal docs that have been published on the web) the type of mind-control being exerted on system participants.
Being nasty toward me is not helping you make your case. In this instance, you have no case.
The tools system is a closed system in which only a very few may profit. It does not give the participants a ROI commesurate with what they have to do to participate in it year after year.
Opening it up for competition would effectively destroy it, because the system would be forced to justify itself based on measureable results.
I will leave you with two lines which we heard repeatedly over the years, made by the top "pins" at many events and on tapes:
"The people who make this business happen are the people who are easy to take advantage of."
(Context: if you are someone who wants to believe, you are the kind of person we want.)
and
"99% loyalty is 100% disloyalty."
Quixmire: I don't about what business you were in, but in the one I'm in
(a) I can buy BSM from anyone I want. I have bought from NightingaleConant, Robbins, EBay, Ziglar etc. I am an IBO and I have bought "BSM" from all of those places. To say I can't and other IBOs can't - well ... either you are saying I am lying when I say I've bought from those places, or you are deliberately spreading falsehoods, or your simply stupid or ignorant. Which is it?
Accuse me of being a liar, which is what you are doing, and I will be as "nasty" as I want.
(b) Any tools system I'm aware of is open to anyone to profit. Just like any other business, if you generate enough volume then you will get a discount.
(c) I have never ever once heard anything remotely like "wanting people that are easy to take advantage of". If that's the kind of person you were looking for, then it's no wonder you are an "ex" IBO. I hear, am taught, and teach, the *exact* opposite.
We're looking for leaders, not followers. Influencers, not the influenced.
Fitz: Please provide me with some links to these "endless accounts". How about give me say 50 links just to start.
It would just be great to write a book with guaranteed sales. Even it it is totally devoid of talent or originality.
How do these writers and motivators calculat their true skills.
I commented on this last time, but don't recall a reply. You state "What I've suggested in the past is that Quixtar's motivational business be opened up to competition. "
How is it not open to competition now? Any IBO can get "business support" from anywhere they want. They can pay Zig Ziglar to speak, buy Tony Robbins books, switch to another LoA, use networkingtimes.com, whatever they like.
Your fabulous suggestion of how to "fix" Quixtar is something that's already there!
Posted by: insider | May 29, 2006 7:17 PM