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May 24, 2006
In Their Own Words - 3
By Xanadustc in Their Own Words
In this clip, John Crowe talks to us about cults with relation to Quixtar:
How many of you heard this: “Well, you are in a cult.” Have you heard that yet? If you haven’t, you will. It is usually by people who are very spiritually immature, brand new church goers, and they do nothing but parrot back what some other people have heard. They have the confidence that always goes with ignorance…If you look up the word ‘cult’ it’s something that separates you from God. Sounds like what a job is.
» Cult [mp3] (BWW166; Stay Young at Heart)
We need to examine this a little out of order. First, consider this line: If you look up the word ‘cult’ it’s something that separates you from God.
Dictionary.com gives us a few interesting definitions:
A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
Using this definition BWW often mentions God, as John does all throughout this tape, so it is valid.
Is the theology in BWW considered to be false by mainstream Christianity? I believe so because it is an off-shoot of the word-faith movement, which is anything but Biblically sound.
Do the followers live in unconventional manners? I believe so. Witness the tapes, books, conferences across the landscape, diets of protein bars, energy drinks, and lots of vitamins.
Do they have a charismatic leader? Again, it certainly appears that many in BWW have a deep devotion to the organization Diamonds and Bill Britt.
Consider this definition:
Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
I think this one speaks for itself...
Funny, but John Crowe’s “something that separates you from God” is not anywhere in the definition. It is also well noted that work is indeed a Biblical mandate and it in no way separates you from God.
Now, let’s consider the phrase "It is usually by people who are very spiritually immature, brand new church goers, and they do nothing but parrot back what some other people have heard."
Wrong, it is usually by people who have done their homework like cult expert Steve Hassen.
Does this prove they are a cult? No but I would encourage you to take your experience and look at some of the useful definitions of cults:
As you can tell, there is a lot more to this issue than simply looking up a word in a dictionary.
Comments
Grape
Mr. Hassen's point by point analysis of Amway's cult-like aspects is right on. I think this is why so many of us who comment here get so frustrated by those who pledge allegiance to "quixtar nation;" we see them as under an outside form of control that temporarily robs them of independent thought and good judgement. This business, this "dream," turns decent people into something a mere psychological bump up from panhandling. And underneath all their defensive talk of "business-building," those of us who are compassionate and clear-thinking are hoping that the light goes on someday soon for these poor souls and they don't lose their shirts, their families, and all of their friends.
Great post Xana.
I wasn't happy QBlog adding other authors. (I wanted him only) but you guys have nothing but added the "attractiveness" of the blog.
Keep it up!
First of all, it's interesting how they always attack the messenger without addressing the message.
#2: I heard that definition of cult in the biz, and I always wondered where they got that from. I thought what separates you from God is called sin.
#3: A job separates you from God? In what universe? How? The Bible says we are to submit to our earthly masters (this would include bosses) and work for them as if we are working for the Lord. We're supposed to do a good job. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we should be ashamed of working for someone else. There's no shame in that. In fact, work is honorable. A job is a cult. Right. Soon jobs will be the antichrist.
If anything, this biz takes people away from fellowship. I remember that after I started dating my boyfriend I had to encourage him to attend church and fellowship with his local body more often. Before we started dating, his church attendance wasn't very regular because the biz took so much of his time. I had to remind him that as wonderful as the biz folks were, they were not a replacement for the body of Christ. Anyway, the biz purports to be a "ministry." Ministry, my foot.
You have one WWDB diamond+ (don't remember who) saying on a CD that to build the biz, people have to stop participating in extraneous activities like sports and church. Then you have diamond Rob Robinson putting down folks who spend "too much time" in church. I know going to church is not equivalent to a relationship with God, but the Bible does command us to fellowship with one another regularly.
So what is separating people from God, huh?
And I really respected John Crowe.
Sorry if I sound angry, but I find this highly irritating.
Oops. I meant to italicize only the word "church." :)
"They have the confidence that always goes with ignorance"
Now I wonder how John knows about all the confidence that comes with ignorance? Could it be because he sees in his downline at every function?
I'm trying in earnest to stay away from this site but unfortunately, I'm not quite there yet... :-)
First of all, "Judge not, lest thee be judged". I don't know where you all get off judging so many others. Who are you? Who do you think you are? Better than those around you? All knowing individuals??? I think not!
You guys are spreading such CRAP that I had to address it!!! I have NEVER, EVER, EVER experienced any of the CRAP that you guys have laid out before everyone's eyes. You are spreading LIES!
A J.O.B. does not separate you from God. Rara, you got one thing right with this. A job is actually a BLESSING! It helps to put food on your table, provide shelter for your family & hopefully, store away for future famine times.
What is taught to us is: Quixtar provides a way for one to get away from working for someone else. A way to be able to have more control over ones time. Or, just a way to provide a stream of income for retirement.
And don't start in about 'system money' and how much it costs to work this business. BULLSH-T!!! If you do it right, you make money. Also there are ways to work this biz (retail is one way) that will net a very very generous profit in the six figure income range WITHOUT having to succumb to the 'system'.
As far as not hangin' with fellow church members...here's what's taught: FIND A GOOD BIBLE BASED CHURCH!!! When they say don't get too involved, what they're talking about are the people who LIVE at church! The people who are there, literally, every night & weekend and are involved in every aspect of the church! Certainly get involved. To a certain extent. You don't need to go to church bingo to do God's work. Mowing the lawn at church is fine but sign up to do it 1-2 times, not every week! Get it????? It's called moderation people!
It sounds like BWW has so screwed things up. I hope all the bad apples in that group just shrivel up and go away.
That's my two cents. Thanks,
Sally
Sally,
Next time you go quoting Matthew 7:1 - please look in the mirror first.
Thanks.
Sally,
Next time you go quoting Mt 7:1, read it in context and not with the post-modernist definition. It is a warning not to judge based on appearances, but to judge a character with Godly discernment. FYI, the whole chapter of Mt 7 talks about judgement and how WE need to be discerning.
Also see John 7:24
We need to judge, but with Godliness
Only one road:
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Examining the teachers:
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Warning to those professing Christ:
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Warning to Ourselves:
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
And the crowds response:
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
Yep. One thing that irritates me is the misinterpretation of Matt. 7:1. Read the verses following. Also, Rom 2: 1-4:
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
It's talking about hypocritical, self-righteous judging, not about recognizing and saying that certain actions are wrong. All through the Bible, God's people declared that people's actions (including their own) were wrong. And we all do that, anyway.
Sally, if you are saying we are spreading lies, by your apparent definition of judging, you are also judging. To take it to it's logical extreme, if no one should judge (according to your definition), people are wrong to say that a murderer did something wrong and should go to jail.
By the way, if you don't look down on having a job for the rest of someone's life (until they hopefully retire), why do you write J.O.B.? Just curious.
ok. So you all posted verses of the Bible here. I'm am not even going to get into a debate about who's judging whom. I am well aware that I should not "judge" anyone else & that I'm not any better than anyone else (nor, any worse, for that matter). You all come off very very condescending & negative about IBO's in general. That's all. It's really sad.
I just am letting you know you are spreading lies! If you relate a specific wrong action towards you, then write it with specific information. Do not generalize.
Rara, if someone WANTS to work a JOB for someone else for the remainder of their life, fine! I don't care. I don't judge it. Obviously, I didn't make my point clear. A LOT of people out there do NOT like to work for someone else and to have someone else dictate whether they can take time off or not. A LOT of people would like to have their own business but cannot afford the thousands of dollars in upfront capital. Even if it is a loan, it's more debt! And with where the economy is heading, more debt is a very dangerous thing!
All the Quixtar opportunity does, is provide another revenue option for people. That's it! Participate in the system, or don't! It's a "free" country, is it not?
I hope that clears it up for you, rara.
Sally (and other Pros),
Just because you yourself have not experienced what others have written does not make it a lie. I have experienced many of the examples stated by others, that's why I will not be renewing next year. Sorry that upsets your Q* world view.
I also don't need to preached to about joining a Bible-believing church, I've already been a member of one for 12 years.
And no, we don't have Bingo or a softball team.
Sally,
Did you READ that comment, which was not about NOT judging, but judging with a pure heart. Are you know backing down because you can not stand up to it?
Where am I spreading lies? I posted a quote from a TAPE by a DOUBLE DIAMOND where HE LIED about a definition and I posted a link to a QUALIFIED, DEGREED PROFESSIONAL. Am I lying? Where? Don't attack me, attack the message!
You say that Quixtar provides an opportunity? What opportunity? How many people succeed? How many fail? What is the average Income? What are the average expenses? Can you answer me these questions?
Quixtar provides an opportunity?
WHy do the vast majority of quixtar IBOs have J.O.B.S?
Because they could not afford quixtar without the income from their jobs.
Do the math, an IBO participating in the system will almost always lose money, except an exceptional few who go onto bigger pins.
Sally, "All IBOs are scammer" is generalizing. No one did that.
"Here is a proof that a certain speaker twist bible verses" is not generalizing. It is specific to one person.
"You guys are spreading lies" is generalizing. How do you know? You weren't there?
May be you have a better upline. May be your LOS doesn't teach so many tapes that says the same thing. Maybe your LOS teaches to not spend 20 hours a week on road. Maybe they don't conviniently hide important facts from you, e.g. what exactly BSMAA means? And how much freedom you have to join other MLMs. Maybe they don't insult your intelligence by telling you to submit to upline. And they put emphasis on retailing, not recruiting.
I don't know. But you don't know what my upline did, do you? I have named him here and reported to Quixtar EXPLICITLY.
Although my experience matches with rara, joe, xana and many others, I hope you have a better upline and wish you best of luck.
"My upline is ethical" is what all the pro-quixtar folks say.
Do they use the dead or broke by 65 when showing the plan? Do they use the 2-5 year plan? Are tapes optional
just like success? Work 10-12 hours a week to go diamond, etc. If your upline uses this stuff, more likely your upline is just like the one I had.
The only difference is your current and my current perspective on it.
All I know is this...Upline Diamonds make most of their money by selling tapes, books to their Directs and by hosting seminars, rallies and other functions...NOT by selling products or even sponoring IBOs. Directs charge IBOs and guests to attend open opportunity meetings and pocket the difference between the "take" and the room rental. The same goes for seminars and rallies only on a larger scale. Wonder why the main speaker keeps you up so late at the annual family reunion?? The IBOs pay a set price to attend the function 9which includes breakfast). The conference or civic centers usually only charge the hosts for the breakfasts actually served the next morning. Guess who pockets the differnce? Get a life and get out before it is too late.
Cult or no cult? I don't know. What I do want to know is what are they putting in that XS that makes everyone act as if Jim Jones is their upline??
Posted by: G A E | May 24, 2006 8:28 PM