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March 31, 2006
Pay For Training
By QBlog in A/QMOs
I'm trying to understand something and maybe you can help me out. Why do so many Quixtar IBOs seem willing to spend their own money on training? The Quixtar Business Reference Guide (pdf) requires uplines to train their downlines for free.
Yet many IBOs feel excited about shelling out personal funds to attend the latest seminar or buy the next great CD. Is this common in other types of business? Don't most businesses pay for training where the money comes from business funds, not personal checking accounts?
Even if you own your own business, isn't it important to keep your personal spending separate from your business spending? I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier so I'd appreciate any help figuring this out.
Or maybe I should clarify where I'm coming from. Call me old-fashioned but if you recruit me to be an Independent Business Owner and you're convinced that your success is dependent upon my success then you better be paying for my training. That's an investment in ME. But, even if you convince me that as a business owner I should be paying for training, I'm not going to write a check from my personal checking account. Hell no. I'm going to write that check from my business account which has been funded by either an investment of some sort, a loan or revenue from my business.
Am I crazy or does that make a lot of sense? How then does a Quixtar IBO start thinking that it's a good idea to shell out $3-5,000 a year on a training system that has only anecdotally proven its success? What am I missing? And what other businesses out there require participants to pay for their own training?
I just don't get it. I really don't. Lil' help?
Comments
I have yet to have to pay for any training from any job I've had. I did have to pay for my classes and fees to become a licensed realtor. We would have weekly meetings in the real estate office where we would share tips and suggestions, but there were outside types of tapes and books that could be used, as well. One realtor, who was also the office manager, loaned me four tapes to listen to.
Yes it would be a good idea to have a separate account for business. But it was my experience, that when you don't have any IBOs signed up, buying product, the profit intake was based only on what I bought personally and $20 or less a month just donesn't cover all the expenses that Quixtar motivational organizations were asking me and my ex to spend. My ex opened a separate account, but when you aren't receiving any profit, paying with personal money was the only way to go to buy tickets for functions, tapes and books.
The problem with all of this is you get two faces of this issue. IBOs in a public forum say that tools are optional, and that they still train those IBOs who don't wish to participate. But behind the meetings, and with their IBOs they say that if you are not on tools you won't be successful, and they give scenarios about helping those IBOs who are on the tools because they do what it takes, etc. etc. etc.
Also, this thing has morphed into this issue because of the lies from the start. Rich DeVos admitted in several different forums that there was abuse. It started out that the tools were just to be used to help train big groups of people, and that the Diamonds were not making any money off of it. Then with the help of the internet the secret is exposed and now is time for damage control. Today they are doing what I call the "justification stage" where the Diamonds are justifying to their downlines the money that they are making from tools.
They use their ridiculous analogies like comparing to college, other businesses, and others that I don't have enough room to list here. Heaven forbid though that you try to reverse those scenarios and compare your job to Quixtar, because then for some reason it becomes apples to oranges
Bottom line is there is no need for these tools. Some that actually teach something would be good, but not needed every week. These kingpins saw a way to earn other income and they took it. They have successfully convinced downline leaders that these tools are what they need to succeed, when that is not true. The things in this business you need to know are not complicated, and is nothing that can't be taught in small groups. Why do I need to spend $7.50 a week or $100 a quarter to hear a Diamond say what my upline silver said last week at the open meeting? It is a source of income for uplines, and has no value for the IBOs, period.
This is a great question that I have always asked but I would usually get a ridiculous answer like when they compare it to paying for college. There are not even one in the same. Not the same ball park, not the same league, not even the same sport.
Right, but college has methods to measure the effectiveness of the training. Accreditation is one way that's achieved. What methods are in place with the Quixtar training? Some anecdotes told on stage?
I don't mind paying my fellow "business partners" or "teammates" for training. I simply want to know how much profit they make with the prices they charge. Comparing this to college, a job, etc., is not a good comparison. There are some similarities, but too many differences to make logical conclusions.
QBlog,
First, I don't see what being old fashioned has to do with you wanting someone else to pay for your training even though you sign up as a business owner. A business owner is (or should be) responsible for his/her own expenses. We are not talking about an empoyer/employee relationship, although the restrictions placed on IBO's might help one argue this point.
To me, this boils down to the effectiveness of the training. If the Quixtar plan really worked as adverstised (buy from yourself, plug into the system, 2-5 years to wealth), a person would be stupid not to invest $300/month in the system. If the return was going to be $250,000 a year of residual income at the end of the 5th year.
But the system doesn't work and not only does it not work, it is the main profit center for the leaders within Quixtar.
It's pretty simple why a Quixtar IBO thinks shelling out $3000+ a year in tools and meetings is a good idea...it's called fraud.
Upline directly benefits from downline success therefore training should be free, or only compensated enough for the trainer's costs such as mileage/gas.
Even some traditional business owners shouldn't have to pay or pay a small amount for training. If I own a franchise, I expect to receive training from headquarters, and I expect that training to either be at cost, or paid by the franchisor. The reason? Because the franchise is supposed to make money when I succeed, not make money simply by training.
With AmQuix, the training should be more like franchise training. In theory, the big pins should make the majority of their money from AmQuix, and not from training. In fact, I would go as far as to say that IBO's should only ever have to pay cost for the training, and it should truly be a zero profit adventure for the big pins.
There is a reason why the big pins hid their profiteering from tools for a long time. If the reality is the big pins make significantly more money from tools then from AmQuix, what does the emphasis on training become? Is it a vehicle to help IBO's become big pins, or is it a vehicle for the big pins to profit from their downline. If it is the latter, and I believe it is, the training looks a lot less like training, and much more like a scam. And the numbers back that statement up. Less then 1 in 14,000 IBO's ever make it to diamond, and 2 out of 3 quit every year. If the training was good, those numbers would be much, much better.
Ty mentioned two things:
But the system doesn't work and not only does it not work, it is the main profit center for the leaders within Quixtar.It's pretty simple why a Quixtar IBO thinks shelling out $3000+ a year in tools and meetings is a good idea...it's called fraud.
1. Which MLM training system does work?
2. Just to be clear, you're saying that Quixtar is committing fraud.
I think the kingpins like britt are frauding and quixtar's guilt comes from knowing about it and failing to take corrective action.
Welcome back QBlog. It's interesting to have this discussion. The "tools" are indeed of little value.
They are not effective, they are overpriced, and they are not at all marketed in an efficient manner.
A few pro-Quix people have indicated that they know that the internet could be used to make the "tools" a lot cheaper for IBO's.
There is even one that told me a site exists where you can download these speeches for free(!)
Bottom line- nothing is going to change until IBO's wake up and take a look at how badly they are getting hosed by the kingpins.
There are a few IBO's who have told me that they would prefer this motivation to be distributed online. They should start talking with their wallets.
The kingpins would listen then.
Part of my job involves franchisee training.
The franchisee gets the week-long seminar as part of the franchise fee, as well as year-long help from the full-time franchise-support team. The franchisee, of course, pays the corp royalties based on his own success, and is not charged anything additional for any of the training. We offer a second week of training should the franchisee feel it necessary, and again, there is no additional cost to the franchisee.
The idea that an IBO [b]whose upline directly benefits from his success[/b] should have to pay anything for training is ludicrous.
Well, until you realize that it is very unlikely that there will BE any success...
"1. Which MLM training system does work?
2. Just to be clear, you're saying that Quixtar is committing fraud."
1. I think that would depend on your definition. I personally believe that a higher percentage of people lose money in Quixtar than any other MLM in the world.
I have more people netting over $1,000 a month on my Oasis Team in 4 months than Bo Short had at any given time in his Amway/Quixtar career as a diamond. I think that is a pretty strong statement for one that works vs. one that doesn't.
2. If millions of people sign up for a business and believe that the lifestyle being portrayed by the leaders (well documented in profiles of success) comes from Amway/Quixtar, when in reality the lifestyle comes from the sales of support materials and meetings...what would you call it?
So you measure the success of MLM training by anecdote as well?
So you think that the number of people netting over $1,000 a month in a given group is anecdotal?
Interesting.
Ummm... well for starters I haven't seen a "number," just a comparison. So, yes. That's anecdotal.
The simple response is, yes, QBlog, people should be paying for training out of their business account and not personal account. This may entail them occasionally transferring funds from the personal account to the business account, something which happens in many small businesses. A not so stupid option would be for a new IBO to decide how much time they were willing to put in to get this thing to revenue neutral, work out the expenses for that time frame, then setup an overdraft or invest the funds directly in their business account and then just operate from that.
($6.4 billion in sales Ty, if that's "not working", then what should we say about OLS?)
Oh I see. Because QBlog has not seen the number then it must not be quantifiable.
As for Alticor's $6.4 Billion in sales, I believe that Worldcom did $5.3 Billion in 2001.
Were they a success too?
Oh, I almost forgot about another successful company...Enron.
I think Enron did over $300 Billion in 2000.
QBlog, what a stupid question. Why don't sponsoring IBOs pay for their downline's training? This basic question demonstrates your total lack of understanding with this business or any other business for that matter. When you buy a franchise, like Starbucks or McDonalds, there is a franchise fee. Guess who pays that... The business owner. With McDonalds, the franchise fee is over $1,000,000. Do you think training is included in that price? I am inclined to think that it is. So while the training might be "paid for" by the business, in reality you're still paying. Is this too complicated? Let me dumb it down some more. What if the sponsoring IBO had to pay for their downline's training, and the downline IBO then sponsors somebody. Who pays for the new guy? Uh oh. The original sponsor and the downline IBO both share the volume generated from the new guy. Who should pay for the training? Stretch this out over hundreds of people, and you've got problems. Here's a novel idea...give the new IBO a choice. No IBO is ever forced to buy into the system. Do you scream "Pyramid!" when you pay two bucks for a bag of Skittles at the movies? Of course not. You're given a choice and you vote with your dollars. If no one would pay two bucks for a bag of skittles, the market value would drop and they wouldn't be two bucks. Concessions at a movie theatre are considered a complimentary business that supplements the main business, which is the showing of movies. The same runs true with any business i.e car dealerships, movie rental stores, Wal-Mart...They all have side businesses that supplement their revenue. Quit whining about the tool business. Let the customers/IBOs decide if it's worth their money. If it was a total waste of money, people wouldn't stick with it. Also, regarding a popular topic, the prices of the XS sports drinks are cheaper than comparable energy drinks. They're selling like hot cakes. You guys should try one. Soon, they'll be countless products that are price competitive with the mainstream market. Economies of scale! Look it up.
Hi CFM!
What does CFM stand for? Can't Figgerfur Myself?
You sound as though you've OD'd on Orrin Woodward with your complementary business argument.
Two points that you likely won't have a response to:
1. Qualify that every McDonald's franchise is a million bucks. A link would do quite nicely.
2. Name one person who is on the "tools" system who is not in Quixtar/Amway. Relevance? If the "tools" were as great as every IBO says they are, people would still get them after not being in the business. Just as (ahem) people continue buying the high quality products after they leave.
PS Name 1 movie theatre that won't let you see the movie without buying that $2.00 bag of skittles. Name 1 movie theatre that tries to get people to it by using deception.
Name 1 IBO who is (snort) "edified" that does not participate in the "tools" system.
Nice to hear some good old fashioned tapespeak again.
Rocket, you confuse form over substance. The main point with the franchise fee comment is that education is "paid for" by the franchisee. When a franchisee pays the fee, education is included in the price. Here's the link you were looking for: http://www.franchiseadvantage.com/handbook/mcdonalds.ihtml
No, not every McDonalds takes more than a $1,000,000 investment, but oftentimes that is the case. My fault for not being precise.
Second, I'll name one person who is on the system but not in the Quixtar business when you can name one person that buys their concessions at the movies, but doesn't go to a movie. The fact is, the two go hand in hand.
When you ask me to name one movie theatre that doesn't allow you to watch the movie unless you buy something at the concessions, I assume you are trying to make a comparison with the Quixtar business. Your implication that IBOs are forced to buy tools is wrong. Once an IBO, you're free to do whatever in the world you want. You can go door to door if that's what suits you, you can create and sell your own tools if that'll help your business grow. The fact is, this business operates on choice, and that is what ultimately ticks people like you off. You might like to think that hundreds of thousands of people are being duped and conned, but give me a break... Is the thought of people making money off other people that appaulling. If you went through the day to avoid people making money off of you, you wouldn't eat, you wouldn't get in your bed, you wouldn't turn on the lights, you wouldn't get dressed, you wouldn't do anything. In America, consumers vote with their dollars, and that is exactly how the tool business works and that is how Quixtar works. There is a product/service and there is a monetary exchange. It's pretty simple. There's nothing evil, immoral or deceptive about.
Lastly, you asked me to name one movie theatre that attracted viewers with deception. Did you ever see the preview for Terminator 3? Godzilla? Rocky V? I rest my case.
"Your implication that IBOs are forced to buy tools is wrong."
There are many many ex-IBO's who would disagree. I am one of them. No, there is no gun to the head, however, it is common knowledge that you are rewarded by pin level (product volume) or by certain promotions (eagle, double eagle etc...) These promotions do not emphasize profit, they emphasize consumption of "tools". Profit is not mentioned with either. I would surmise because there is very little profit generated by either method.
"Once an IBO, you're free to do whatever in the world you want."
Except prospect people at Barnes & Noble. Except for resolving issues in a public forum (see the arbitration agreement) Except for choosing a lower cost wholesaler, Do I need to go on? There are a lot of jobs with more freedom of choice than Quixtar.
"The main point with the franchise fee comment is that education is "paid for" by the franchisee."
That is also disclosed within the agreement between the franchisor and the corporation. Training and the cost of training is clearly spelled out in the contract, just like a real business. Tell me, do you tell people you show the plan to how much they need to be core to succeed? Do you mention the costs of being core when you show the plan? I'll bet not.
I'm not opposed to people making money off of me. I just bought an SUV last week. Obviously the salesman made a profit. I feel I got value for my dollar. If I choose to quit driving next week, I will still be able to sell my vehicle for a comparable price.
What will someone get for the tapes or CD's when they quit? Pretty much nothing.
You sound intelligent. Surely you must concede that there HAS to be a cheaper and more efficient way for the motivation to be dispersed? Like the internet......
Yes, those were all bad movies. Touche. BUT - People knew they were going to see a movie. There were not people selling headphones so they could hear the movie once they were in the theatre, or special glasses that you needed to see the movie were there?
And they likely didn't have to drive or fly somewhere to see the movie, get a hotel to see the movie, or have to commit to the movie a month in advance.
I don't think there are thousands of people being duped or conned.
I know there are.
Rocket, of course there are cheaper means to disperse tools. Just because there are cheaper means doesn't mean people are being conned. When you buy a software program from a store i.e. Microsoft Word, the CD the program is on is worth no more than a quarter, yet the program sells for $80. You're not paying for the CD, you're paying for what's on it. The CD has value because of what's on it. The same runs true for the tools. The fair market value is: whatever people are willing to pay.
Of course there are a lot more jobs with freedom of choice than Quixtar. If you start your own business, you can buy and sell whatever you want. However, if you buy into a franchise, you're subject to the franchisor's rules and limited to what you can do. You can't sell Pizza if you own Starbucks coffee. Why buy into a franchise if you want to do things completely different. People get involved with Quixtar because Quixtar provides the products and services. It's up to the IBO to figure out a way to move those products and services. Yes, you're right, you're limited to what you can buy and sell, but how is that different than any franchise business. However, you're not limited to how you can move those items.
As far as arbitration, a person of your intelligence has to see the merit in having required arbitration. Arbitration is a popular avenue for businesses that span across the country i.e. Cruise ships... It's bad policy to require a business to defend itself in multiple suits in multiple jurisdictions. When you agree to travel on, let's say, a Carnival Cruise ship, you sign an agreement that states if you file suit, it has to be heard in x city. But your qualm with the business isn't really about the arbitration agreement, is it?
Did you know that 80% of start-up companies fail within the first five years? How much money do you think those owners lose? Does that mean starting a business is wrong? Does that mean those business owners were conned into actually believing they could make a business work? Where is the outrage? The bottom line is: in America, you're guaranteed an opportunity, you're not guaranteed results. As with any business, success in Quixtar is not guaranteed and I think people realize that when they get involved. Therein lies our difference in opinion. You might like to think you were conned and the business doesn't work, but the reality is, maybe you just failed.
CFM, please post the source of your 80% start up companies fail within the first five years. Also, what is the percentage of IBO's who "fail" (quit) within the first five years? And assuming the 80% number is correct, is Quixtar better, worse, or equal to the averages.
As far as tools and training goes, the big difference between a franchise training and AmQuix training is the success rates and percent profit the corp or big pins make from the training. McDonalds probably makes a small profit off of Hamburger U., but the overwhelming majority of their profit comes from hamburgers that sell in their franchised stores. In contrast, big AmQuix pins make at least 50% of their money off of tools, and in some cases, it has been reported as high as 85% of their money comes from tools. Makes me want to ask, what business are they in? McDonalds is clearly in the hamburger business, but big pins do not seem to be in the AmQuix business, but rather the motivational business. It would be like the movie theather selling popcorn as their main product, and not the movie!
Now, to go back to success rates, how many McDonald's franchises fail? The number is far lower then number of IBO's who quit. In short, Hamburger U. does a good job of training, plus the McDonald's Corporation does a good job of screening for potential owners, and an even better job understanding their market and dividing up areas (you never see two McDonald's next door to each other). Again, in contrast, the number of IBO's who quit is staggering, and the number that succeed is minute. 1 in less then 14,000 IBO's make it to diamond. If the AmQuix system worked, wouldn't that number be higher?
"You're not paying for the CD, you're paying for what's on it."
So what is on it that is so great and worthy of several dollars? DMM pointed out the success rate. So, how much value do these "tools" have? ZERO, outside of Amway/Quixtar.
I apologize for the confusion. My point about the lack of freedom in Quixtar was a direct rebuttal to you saying, " Once an IBO, you're free to do whatever in the world you want."
In my opinion, the arbitration is in place to keep things quiet. It also takes away your ability to have any sort of control over the proceedings. Not very good to not have the control in court when it involves "your" business.
You're right. My qualm isn't about the arbitration. The arbitration is a segment of the problem.
I did note that you didn't answer my question in regards to you showing the plan.
Do you tell people you show the plan to how much they need to be core to succeed? Do you mention the costs of being core when you show the plan?"
Thought so.
DMM, here you go:
http://www.bizjournals.com/extraedge/consultants/company_doctor/1999/08/16/column169.html
As far as the failure rate with Quixtar, true, a lot of people fail. The beautiful thing about Quixtar is that anybody can do it. The bad thing about Quixtar is that anybody can do it. A lot of people get involved with hopes of making a fortune and do absolutely nothing. Is that the business' fault? I assume you expect that if someone were to start a business, they need a guarantee of success. Actually, some businesses do guarantee success, like popular franchises. The problem is, those guarantees come at a premium that most people can't afford.
As far as the proportionality of income between tools and products, what's the big deal about that? If McDonalds could maximize their profits by getting people involved with Burger U, they would. The market determines everything. Businesses will charge whatever people are willing to pay. In a competitive market, the businesses compete, which is what keeps the prices down. Here's what I recommend: start your own tool business, and charge a lower fee. Sell it on the internet for next to nothing if you'd like. If people could implement what you're teaching and they actually get results, you might have a long business future in store. Until then, quit whining about the prices of CDs.
Rocket, you asked, "Do you tell people you show the plan to how much they need to be core to succeed?"
Are you saying you need to be on system to succeed? If you think the tool business is a joke, don't market the tools. Period.
I think someone said it before. The functions teach you to listen to tapes and read books. The tapes and books teaches you to attend seminars and not to quit.
As to how you actually run a PROFITABLE quixtar business, theer is very little material on that.
So does the training justify the cost? Not in my opinion.
I'm not the one saying you need to be on the system to succeed. Your "leaders" are.
Craig Loupelle "We used everything the Yager system offers - no picking and no choosing, no adapting, no innovating. We followed the system exactly"
Louie Carrillo "Do you want to be wealthy in Amway? Do you want to stand on the stage and claim victory over your life..and claim it that you overwhelmed whatever challenge you had?... Do you really want to do that? You'll have to come to a dream weekend. You'll never make it without a major function."
Jonathan Ritzen "My whole goal here is to make sure I do the best job I can do to duplicate what I have been taught.....I'm duplicating a rubber stamp that's already been made. It's not my role to change that duplicatable rubber stamp, or else I will fail and everybody behind me will fail too."
"As far as the proportionality of income between tools and products, what's the big deal about that?"
Nothing, I guess. It's just THE PROBLEM!!
Get it? They tell you that the tools are optional, yet essential for success. AND they make a profit off of them for selling them to you!! CONFLICT OF INTEREST!!!
Unless this is all spelled out when you are showing the plan, it's deceiving. So I ask again......
Do you tell people you show the plan to how much they need to be core to succeed? Do you mention the costs of being core when you show the plan?
If you do not, you are part of the problem.
I am no pro on any of this, but I do have experience. I was 'recruited' so to speak by a close friend of my parents to join Quixtar at its beginning stages way back when. I was preached to and pampered with compliments and offered all kinds of information on what the company was supposed to do. I was taken to dinner and told I had all the skills necessary to succeed and make hundreds of thousands of dollars within a short time. Especially since I would be getting in at the inception and would be high up on the tree. As a ten year restaurant employee (cook, waiter, all the way up to kitchen and store management) I had sales experience, management experience, inventory and supply experience, as well as experience dealing with the public at face value on a daily level. Finally I conceded and joined the club. First off I had to pay almost $200 for the entry package. I got a bunch of products that I still have not used. most I gave away or tossed. I got concentrated window cleaner that I still have a bottle of over five years later. Not that it's a bad product, just I have not used it all yet. how in the world can I sell that on a regular basis? I could go on and on but you people know the products I'm sure. Point is they were trying like mad to get me to 'subscribe' to a plan where I received a package each month full of the same products. $8 tubes of toothpaste, $5 for deodorant, etc. Justification for this came from the fact that they were concentrated and not needed to use a bunch of at once. All this was NOT explained before I joined. In fact none of it was. I was simply shown figures and diagrams and interenet reports etc and then showered with praise and promises. I understand the business end of this for them but even with a full family come on! I would never use all the stuff. Still when I tried to explain this they said 'no matter just do it anyway'. It was the only way to ensure I could become as high up as I had 'envisioned' (more like they envisioned for me) as quickly as possible. If I had extra product just give them as samples. Sure easy for them to say. I could not afford that! Well this was the training I got as far as products go. Nobody wanted to buy any of this stuff. Nobody. Every single person I talked to openly about the business laughed at me. Even someone with over ten years of sales experience could not sell their product as it was. Now's where it gets good. I was suddenly 'not capable' and needed tons of training in the form of $5 a week cassettes and books and pamphlets. I needed to meet my uplines so I could see how much money they had. And then the seminars. They told me to cut my hair different. Buy new clothes. Groom my eyebrows?! Consider just what kind of friends I really had if they couldn't see the future of this?! All this just weeks after I was the golden child so to speak. All the praise stopped. I told them I felt amply suited to run the business and did not need training and seminars that cost $300 just to attend. All so I could 'meet in person' the people that were essentially living off the money they were trying to get me to spend. There was NO trainig involved in this. I mean it stopped completely. Once I made it obvious I was not going to buy the training stuff I lost all contact, help, support, even the friendship of the man who signed me up. I have known him since I was a little child and now he will barely even speaks to me because of the way I 'shunned' him. And this is YEARS later. He still does it all and has my parents and several others duped into spending the money every week, month, etc. None of them and I mean none will show me any evidence of their earnings. No sales reports. No income stats. Nothing. They refuse to talk about that end. When I was still a member and I tried to delve deeper, I kept being referred to the website which at the time was not even completed yet. I was actually at his house when it launched and got to see the big deal they made out of it. In the year or so I stuck with it, I actually got the website to work about every tenth time I tried. I would go to try to get people involved and the damn thing wouldn't even work! I could get no help from customer support or any of my uplines who just couldn't seem to find the time all of a sudden to help someone that refused to put easy money in their pockets. I nearly lost my mariage because of all this and have lost a couple of friends and it has severely damaged the relationship I have with my parents. Basically all of this because I had the gall to call them out and challenge their assertions. I was never even one time presented with info on how to actually run the business other than by manipulating people with a sales pitch that I refused to use. Or given cassettes that were aimed at raising self esteem that sounded more like Stuart Smalley than legitimate businessmen. I'm sure there are several of you that will post replies stating this just isn't true, and that there are special circumstances, blah blah. The simple fact is I was frauded. And several of my friends and family still are. Quixtar has strained our relationships and even severed others because there is simply no room for discussion of anything. It is all the Diamond way or no way. In the year I was a member I received ZERO training that I was not required to pay for other than basic help in setting up a website which I was never able to gain access to regularly. It was a complete sham. Their products are neither cheaper nor better than anyone elses and it is run like a cult. I felt like an Atheist at a Christian rally most of the time. Shunned for my opinions and forsight that I am happy to say I was 100% right about. Reply all you want and challenge this but it all true. To the letter.
CFM,
There's yet another example of people being duped.
Just hang around long enough here, and you will hear stories like this over and over and over and over again. If you choose not to believe it, and you choose to buy into those "optional but necessary for success" CDs, and seminars, and functions, by all means knock yourself out.
On the other hand, if you are profiting from the "tools", and this is just a cheap attempt to justify this scam, I just hope you sleep well at night.
Cry me a river:( Everything about that long post screams that 1LeftPsyde tried to do it his way and it didn't work. How was he duped? He didn't buy the tools. Explain to me this, what is supposed to happen when you sign up. Is the business supposed to be built for you? It sounds like his group tried to help the best way they knew how and he didn't agree with them. He tried to do it his way and lost. Is that the business's fault. How is this proof that the system doesn't work? Bad example, guys. If I sold a fat guy a treadmill and told him he needed to run 30 minutes a day for four days a week, and he said, "No, that's stupid." If he doesn't lose weight, is it my fault? Are there guys that get gung ho about the system and fail? Absolutely. Is that conclusive evidence that this is a scam, no. Some people aren't cut out for it, just like some people aren't cut out for running their own business. Some are just cut out to take orders or work a managerial position their whole life. Kudos to them if that's their choice. When anybody can do something, there will be tons of people that muck it up and whine when it doesn't work out. That doesn't make it a scam. I feel sorry for that guy, but that goes to show you that maybe the tools have value. Here was a qualified guy that tried to do it his way, and failed miserably. If there was absolutely no tools or training, we'd have a lot more of these stories.
Oh yes, the tools have value. To the people making profit off of them.
I don't know that he was duped, but did you catch the part about people ignoring him because he wasn't on tools?
"He tried to do it his way and lost."
So is it his business or his upline's? It's pretty sad, you know. The prices of the products. Most people would be hard pressed to retail.
Anyhoo, you never did answer my question.
Do you tell people you show the plan to how much they need to be core to succeed? Do you mention the costs of being core when you show the plan?
CFM,
I don't think you were paying attention to what 1LeftPsyde said. He was not the one who was duped into using the "system". He was smart enough to figure it out for what it really is, to wit:
I was never even one time presented with info on how to actually run the business other than by manipulating people with a sales pitch that I refused to use. Or given cassettes that were aimed at raising self esteem that sounded more like Stuart Smalley than legitimate businessmen.
His relatives are still in, aren't they? They seem to be pretty "plugged" into the "system" but can't seem to, or are reluctant to provide any evidence of their profitability. What does that tell you about the "System"?
If you don't really have a vested interest in the "system", I'll save you a bunch of time and money:
Three Sentences:
"JOB NOT GOOD, NO SECURITY.
CONVENTIONAL BUSINESS TOO RISKY.
ONE BUSINESS GOOD, AMWAY/QUIXTAR BUSINESS."
Just create you a few cute anecdotes that summarize those three sentences, and repeat those three sentences to yourself over and over again, because that's pretty much what those CDs, "Seminars", and "Meetings" do.
Oh, on the other hand, if you do have a vested interest in the "System", if you do do stand to profit from the "system", by all means, damn the torpedoes and full-steam ahead - push them as hard as you can.
If you don't have a conscience, you will sleep well.
But if ever there is a small voice telling you that you are robbing people, pay attention to that, okay?
CFM,
The QMO training system doesn't work. If it did, there would be hoards of new diamonds crossing stage in any given month. To compare your example of the fat guy, the QMO system is like the fat guy running on the treadmill one hour each day and cutting his calorie intake in half, yet he finds he is still gaining weight.
There are countless stories of people who worked the 2-5 year plan and did everything upline advised, yet after years of effort and thousands of dollars invested in the teaching, they are no closer to diamond than the day they signed up. Why is that?
Upline says tools are optional but so is success. To a newbie, that really doesn't sound very optional does it?
Is it a bad thing to bring people's hopes up? I guess it's better to keep people's hopes where it needs to be, which is down with you guys. Or shall I say, "realistic." How dare the leaders of the business get people's hopes up when they know not everyone will succeed. They should know better.
Believe it or not people, a lot of people do make it in the Quixtar business. Also, it keeps getting better every year, like with XS drinks being cheaper than RedBull and Gatorade. That's a solid start. It's only going to get better, people.
What's the going rate of cable TV these days? What's the market value of that when you're done with it? I personally believe cable TV is a ripoff. Does that make Comcast an evil company for making money on countless consumers? Especially when those consumers fortify habits that keep them broke while watching TV. Is Comcast scamming everyone? Nah, it's just business and there are plenty of paying customers out there. Sorry to break this to you all, but you're all a part of a system whether you like it or not. You plug into information everyday and that information has influence over. You can be deliberate with what goes in your head or you can just turn the tube on and let the thinking get done for you. If you spend $100 a month on digital cable, that's $1,200 a year. Scam? I know what your thinking, there's quality programs on TV that empower people. Yeah right. Yes, new people do have a choice with whether they get on system. Yes, the system is heavily promoted. Do you want to know why? Show me a diamond that has made it without one. You can't. When you're leading a constantly growing organization, there's only so much of yourself to go around. You have to leverage a system. You may ask, "Why does the system cost so much and why are there two CDs a week?" I'd tell you, "Build a huge organization and figure out a better way." But for now, it is what it is because it works. If there weren't people getting results, the system wouldn't sell. Everyweek, there's new speakers on the CDs telling their story. If it was just Bill Britt or Orrin Woodward, I think people would figure it out. If your problem is with the tools but not the business, go build a business without the tools. Go ahead! Nobody's stopping you. To end on a quote, "If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've been getting."
ps, Rocket, when I show the plan, I discuss the system. I go into the costs of the system during the follow through. I was not evading your question, but didn't think it was worth the time to answer.
"But for now, it is what it is because it works."
No it doesn't.
Not for over 99% of the participants. Sorry. That IS reality. No amount of dreaming or motivation will change that, as much as you'd like it to.
"Believe it or not people, a lot of people do make it in the Quixtar business."
Where are they? North American, I mean. Not too many, are there?
So when the McDonald's comparison fails you switch to cable companies? Whatever. Keep on altering your tactics. At the end of the day they are all defeated because Quixtar is not a real business to achieve financial success.
I'm glad you tell the system cost at the follow through. Perhaps you should make it known so that people are aware when you come to actually sign them up.
To do otherwise may be viewed as deceptive....not that it seems to matter.
Holy crap, you guys are bitter. What do you mean my McDonalds comparison failed? That had nothing to do with the point I was making. And how did it fail? Forget it. Your mind is made up. Your opinion = truth: those opposed are complete maniacal liars. Are you a Communist?
ps, off the subject, how can you justify spending $1,200 on cable when it gets you nowhere?
Spending $1200 on cable is not a scam. It's entertainment. You pay for a service you enjoy. The cable company doesn't sell their service by saying you can get rich watching cable TV.
Quixtarians advertise that you can get rich from their opportunity. And sure, some people do make it big in quixtar. No argument about that. The problem is that for every rich guy made by quixtar, there are many many hundreds who lose money. Sure some are lazy and do nothing, but many who try hard and invest the time and money lose out. The numbers do not justify quixtar as a good opportunity.
CFM, by your statement, show you a diamond who wasn't on the system.
Try bill britt and some others. There wasn't a system in place in the old days of the business.
Here we are witnessing the contempt stage.
If you can prove otherwise, my opinion would change. However, nobody has been able to prove this is a great business.
No I'm not a communist. Not sure where that came from.
How can you justify spending thousands on tools when they will get you nowhere?
Don't feel bad. It's not your fault a bunch of people before you destroyed the name of Amway and Quixtar through their immoral and deceptive practices.
Define getting nowhere? Contrary to your opinion, tools can change lives for the better. I have had numerous encounters with countless, and I mean countless people that have commented on how the books and tapes have helped their relationships with their spouse, their kids, their parents, their co-workers. They say how they feel better about themselves. I can't help but feel proud to be a part of some of that change when I hear it. Just the habit of reading by itself is priceless and can change everything. What do you say about guys like Rick Pitino, Dinesh D'Souza, Chris Whitehead, John Wooden, John Maxwell, Pat Summit (girl), Lou Holtz, Frank Betcher, Bill Gates, Michael Dell, Robert Kiyosaki, Pat Buchanan, Jimmy Carter, Sam Walton, Ray Kroc, Jack Welsh, Tom Stanley, James Hunter, Michael Gerber...Do those guys have any credibility? What has Seinfeld done for you lately? How about Desperate Housewives?
ps, You sounded like a communist when you accused me of switching "tactics." I smelled a little paranoia. I'm done with this. It was fun while it lasted. My last word of advice: be careful who you hate. Being bitter is like drinking poison hoping someone else is going to die.
You guys all rule. Nothing better to do than bicker bicker bitch. Try investing your time and money in yourself instead of fighting over all this. Rocket, quit trying to convince this dimwit he has obviously drank the kool-aid already. You seem like a smart and reasonable person. Put this to use and stop wasting your time. All he is doing is ranting at you trying to convince himself that there is still hope. He says your opinion = truth. NO! rocket is only stating facts. Search the web they are all over the place. Seriously. Go to google and type in Quixtar and try to find one single positive thing written about it. That pretty much says it all so stop arguing and go do something with your lives. There is more evidence and facts about how much of a scam this is than anything else written about it. If it is so great how about providing names and testimony of people who have succeeded? I can't find any. And this includes a few family members and close friends. When challenged every single one gets defensive and bottles up. As long as they are allowed to pitch their version of this they are fine but question it and watch as the face gets redder and redder. You'd think you just told them Christ was a hermafrodite frog from Jupiter. How much have any of these people actually made? Again I cannot find a single member including everyone I had in my upline who would reveal this info. I can find no evidence of this ANYWHERE except from people like CFM who want to rant and rant but provide nothing more than words. Yes CFM I have met hundreds of people who say the exact same things as you. You guys all sound just like the tapes. blah blah blah. Funny thing is I wasn't shown any of the real deal until I paid the money to start up. Once I did I took one look at what it was I was would have to to make money and knew right off I was not that kind of person. I couldn't live with myself that way and I think a lot of other Quixtar people feel the same. They just get so vested so fast with so much money that they feel they have to make it work. No wonder they need so much support. Quixtar told me absolutely nothing about myself I didn't already know. In fact it was pretty insulting once I joined. It did however open my eyes to just how wealthy the internet was capable of making us all though. And by wealth I mean time not money. I now have time for myself and my children and my life is my own. I did exactly what I was capable WITHOUT THEM to take most of my money. Simply put I believed in myself and what I knew to be a successful business model. I now run two seperate internet businesses of my own and an ebay store to boot. Granted I am not making a quarter million a year but I am at home enjoying being free to watch my children grow up. Go to their baseball games and school plays. I get to volunteer to be a chaperrone Dad for their field trips. I get to see them smile when they wake up in the morning and I am actually at home. Plus I am making twice what I ever made at any job I had before working less hours. All because I believed in myself. I didn't need tapes or books or any other rich upline thief to tell me I was capable of this. I just started doing it and followed what I knew would work. Been four years now and still truckin'! You can all keep typing away at each other like gnats all you want. you want training simply go to google and decide what it is you want to do. There is a blog somewhere for everything and theere are loads of people willing to help you learn whatever you want to know FOR FREE. As for me I'm outta here. rocket I wish you the best. Turn all your energy inward and you will be wealthy with time. Good luck all. Peace.
OK CFM, I'll clarify. Getting nowhere FINANCIALLY
It's great that these people feel better about themselves, truly.
What is the purpose of business? To generate revenue. It ain't happening for over 99% of the people in this "business".
Yep, readining is good. I do it every day. I have read books by some of the people you've listed. I sure don't need a recommendation by an upline as to what I should be interested in reading.
I don't hate anyone. I hate what Quixtar/Amway has become, which is a path to financial ruin for many good people so a very few can live excessively by what was gained by deception, in my opinion.
People have access to this information now. It's not as easy to fool people. Now the money is justified, not hidden.
Thanks for your kind words 1LeftPsyde. Fret not, I have plenty of time and an excellent career. This is a hobby of mine, along with family time, excercise, and (dare I say it?) TV!
I just think people need assurance when they are getting false information that there is no hope outside Quixtar that there really is.
Moreso outside of Amway/Quixtar, in fact.
I've read Borrin Orrin's "Figures Don't Lie — But Liars Sure Can Figure" crap before.
It is a load. Seriously. 66% of people following the system made platinum? I call BULL&*%#.
Thisbiznow has no influence over my opinion yet. I've also viewed it a long time ago. Very little has changed.
Again, you add the (complete-not very courteous) Forbes article. Trust me, if this or any other website contained libelous statements, I'm sure Quixtar would be all over it.
I'm sure they would rather you peddle the dream and not worry about the corporation. They'll take care of the legal stuff.
Just goes to show again how much control you have over your "business"
Oops.my bad. Obviously QBlog deleted that train wreck of a post while I was posting. Sorry for the confusion. CFM had a huuuge post which included a cut 'n' paste of a complete McLean's article.
CFM says tools made people's lives better.
Of course it did when the couples were brainwashed and committed to quixtar. They are programmed to edify each other and their upline in front of the group; It makes everone feel warm and fuzzy. What happens behind closed doors when their profit/loss statements shows huge losses because of their involvement with the teaching system?
What happened to bill britt, dean kosage,
Howie danzik? Did the tools save their marriages?
CFM> Also, it keeps getting better every year, like with XS drinks being cheaper than RedBull and Gatorade.
DI> Really? How much does XS cost per can to the IBO when bought in bulk?
CFM,
It explains why the diamond kingpins littered the internet with their blog as they didn't want prospects to see Qblog.
As a new IBO, one of the things i liked was being told i could work as much as i wanted, when i wanted, and still be fairly successful. This seems great, since you do "own" your own business. Can one really afford to not attend meetings or quarterly functions? NO! Sure, one can not attend and try to recruit by himself or herself. But what i found is that one's upline will abandon you if you do not fork out the 100 dollars to go to a function. Gee i wonder why my platinum upline kept pushing for me to go. Because he's getting direct income from my purchase of a ticket! Sure, he can threaten to not help me in the future, but which would be more costly to his business? Me not spending 100 bucks, or me not becomming a platinum myself. I think he would chose me as a platinum and not attending over me attending and then deciding it was all a bunch of BS.
I strongly agree with 1LeftPsyde. It's stupid to pay to go to functions to hear some millionaire say the same things you can hear at a weekly open.
Yes, im going to stay with this business venture, but let's see if one really does need to spend cash for training in order to succeed. I don't think so.
Your right, you are to be trained for Free! They get around it by saying "purchasing training tapes........is purely your decision." What they don't tell you is the people with all of the money ar making their money buy selling the training info, holding seminars etc. not by following the plan.
Check out dateline.msnbc.com, do a search for quixtar and read, & keep reading, it will shock you
Pay for training!
Don't you pay for your children's education? Directly or thru taxes?
So, yes, pay for training!! But does this mean that teacher BENEFIT FINANCIALLY from training??!? A Big difference!!
Does math teacher get money for their training? Yes!! History teacher? Yes!!
But they don't have the same relationship has IBO with our downline!! As said in quixtar manual, they shouldn't pay for training. Here is how a plan a training session:
- having a group of my own (200-300 IBOs so far), if I want to train them efficiently, I can call (an spend uge amount of time and money, repeating over and over again the same thing; OR find a place big enough to have they in one place and do 1 training session. Such a big place usually costs money. Shall I pay? Shall we split the cost between participants?
Julian,
But why should IBO's pay a lot of money for continuous training on how to run a quixtar business when the diamonds are in reality making their money selling tapes, cd's, books and seminars?
And do the diamonds actually teach you how to run a profitable quixtar business? If they are, they're doing a poor job based on quixtar's numbers of 66% attrition rate and the average active IBO does 38 pv and makes $115 a month.
Who is an average IBO ?
$115/Month is an excellent deal: Tell me how I can become an average IBO, since when I buy stuff from elsewhere no body pays me $115/Month...
Yes: I asked one of my IBO friends why training is not free: He told me no school teaches things for free...
He said if education is considered expensive, then try to remain be ignorant...
He told me he has given many CDs to his team members and most of them have not come back: He asked should he be compensated for this by someone...
He said Yes: BWW is that school, which eventually pays you back, after you have achieved something...
Isn't it cool the school pays you back ?
Seems to be a good deal to me...
just dropping my two cents. i joined quixtar in 2000 and in 2006 my income from quixtar is 0.00. that is not quixtars fault but my own. i showed the plan got a few customers even signed a gentleman up in my downline and then i sat and waited on my ship to come in. found out if you shut the motor off the boat stops. procrastination has keeped me from doing anything but again my fault. i have received calls from my upline to see if i needed anything and to check in with me 5 yrs after my volume went to ZERO. sounds to me that there has been alot of bad training and lousy uplines. i dont care for my immediate upline but i dont let that get in the way of my business. right now the only one in the way of my business is me. do i believe in the system yes because i have seen it work first hand, my upline is my example of it working. is he a diamond, no. but in defense he has an on and off attitude to the business. it is his business so he can do what he wants and the same with me its mine and i can do what i want. do i believe in the tools. yes. they help keep me in perspective. i know i havent done anything with the business so your probably thinking i am an idiot for that comment. i choose not to do anything. thats not the tools fault its mine. would it be nice if the tools were cheaper more accesable. yes. so would gasoline. do i have to buy the tools. no. do i get villanfied for not. no. will i be eagle, platnium, diamond, etc. without them. no. its a requirement for those levels. can i make hundreds, thousands, millions of dollars without them. yes. i just wont get the bonuses that are associated with them. the uplines push the tools because the tools system does work. its been tried and it worked. does it work for everyone. no. nothing works for everyone. bill britt was brought up. it was stated that he built the business without the tools system. thats wrong. he invented the system. did he and do the big pins make money off the tools. yes. i will have to do some research on how much their revenue comes from that but i believe that they have alot of volume coming through their businesses as well. yes, when i was showing the plan i explained all the costs even the tool system. refering of 1leftpsyde. sorry you had such a bad experience. any salesman will tell you that if you dont believe in the product you are selling you wont sale a thing. also if you owned a business would it be a smart thing to buy anything from your competitor. the tools seem to be a sticking point with a few. my advice is to build the business without them and prove to the big pins it can be done. as some one else said let your dollars do the talking. to 1leftpsyde, everyone laughed at sam walton and look what he did. same for bill gates. by the way, do a search on walmart or microsoft and i bet you will find more negative than positive about them too. i will stop there for now. i will restart my business today 4/14/06. i will keep you updated on my results.
The minimum CD + Books cost is only $550/Year...I have never heard such a cheap training system in the whole world...Again this is an optional purchase, which is the best part about it...Yes: These CDs and Books keep one focused: Inspiration and good knowledge is gained: Even if one does not earn a dime, they are worthwhile to purchase and listen to and read...Let's say we have conventional business and we invest money in it up front $2,000+: Now if we do not do anything in this business, we will loose a many...But here if someone does not do anything, he or she will loose not much (less than $300 initial investment)...I don't care if someone makes money out of CDs and Books: They all indeed deserve what ever they get, since they have achieved certain level and in reaching that level, they have given out so much free of charge material...Now let's say one spends prudently $300/Month on buying stuff from the website (which as consumer, one has to buy anyway from elsewhere, why not from one's own Franchise) and $550/Year for two years and may be about $4,000 on Functions...During this time, he starts to build the team...With the help of this team, at the minimum he will able to make $75 to $200 per month, so for two years, he gets paid back about $3,300...Now stuff plus tools in two years equals to $8,300 Plus $4,000 Minus $3,300 = $9,000...As such this $375 per month investment for 24 months, which also includes so many things one uses for own use anyway, has potential of bringing back net about $1,500 to $2,500 beginning the second year...So starting about the 30th month, every expense including what one was consuming will get paid off...Wow: This is amazing, as no investment can bring such residual returns...That is the reason they say it is not a get rich scheme, although it is swift for those, who build up their teams quickly...It takes time to build, but then once you consistently keep building it, after about 30 months, you can start to reap real good fruits: Not a bad deal, since schooling takes 36 to 48 months before one gets a job to start earning and paying off loans and cost of books...When we follow the system being in school, consuming and then earning at the same time, it also makes us disciplined, since when we buy things, we are able to do good research on the web about those products as we are sitting comfortably on our chair or sofa at home...Plus throughout this time, we also get several up-to 36 Different Tax Benefits...So it is not a bad deal what so ever...These blogs have made me do research and have really reached the conclusion that there is solid potential in this venture...
James> same for bill gates. by the way, do a search on walmart or microsoft and i bet you will find more negative than positive about them too.
Joe> I did that and did not find negative stuff. Care to link us?
The reason why there is so much negative about quixtar/amway is because of the IBO's themselves. People who leave the business are looked down upon as failures, even though they simply made a smart business decision.
I have never been to this site before and I have to say, this is interesting. I am extremely happy to see so many opinions in one place that have explored all points on Quixtar.
I just started into the Quixtar business a short time ago (2months exactly), and well, I was skeptical at first, while going to these motivational speeches, conferences and seeing the success and misfortunes. But now, I really enjoy my business and my skepticism has left my side. It is "WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR". Please quote me on this, because I am only one person with one opinion. Everyone has had their own experiences and has their own choices and opinions. First thing that I must admit is that this is not a business for everyone. It is self motivated and does take work, as any business should.
I do agree that it does cost money to train, but I have NEVER bought the "TOOLS" and I seem to be doing just fine! I do not feel pressure from my upline, in fact they are there for me for support and SOME simple directions. I treat this as my own business, and do things the way I WANT TO DO THEM! That is my choice.
I am making an income already, and with my business training at NAIT Canada, a business usually STARTS to see a profit in 3-5 years. I found this as an excellent opportunity for me, and my business keeps on growing. I am 20 years old, own a business and am enjoying every moment I have. I do get negatives thrown at me here and there, but I guess people just dont see the same picture that I do.
On another note:
-YES! Every business owner has to pay for training! Who else will?
-YES! McDonalds has an investment of $506 000.00 - 1.6 Million! Check it out for yourself.
http://www.franchiseadvantage.com/handbook/mcdonalds.ihtml
-Unfortunately I find that some people do not have the patience or the motivation to keep going on once they start, which I find to be sad. They stuck their foot in the door but did not totally make it through, some could say that is poor training, but I am there for my team as much as possible. Quixtar diamonds DO give good advice, BUT IT IS YOUR CHOICE TO FOLLOW, TO BUY TOOLS EVEN TO JOIN AND BECOME AN IBO!
I have to thank Quixtar, for the oppotunity and for the support that is thrown out to ME and the choices that I have been given. There are people who have had bad experiences and for that I am sorry, I only wish that you had a better experience. But I wish you luck in whatever you do in your life and I also wish you success.
I also hope that this blog continues, I enjoy other peoplesopinions and reading their experiences. It helps me out too! :D
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Great question QBlog.
First let me address with my opinion the question regarding "pay for training". From my experience, an employer would/should pay for training for their employees. As a business owner, I am responsible for by business and thus the expenses. For example, if I buy a landscape franchise - more than likely I would have to pay for or most of training for the business.
However, one can debate "business owenrship" with Quixtar IBO's.
Second, I think perhaps, in my opinion, another qualifiying question to ask of "pay for training" with LOA's is - are the Kingpins sincerely doing their best to minimize costs for training, thus not extending the cost to IBO's and is the material the best material to help the IBO's profit in the short term and long term. From my experience - the answer to both questions is - No.
Now, if we do agree that perhaps "pay for training" is not a necessary evil - assuming costs are minimized and the material is relevant - the expense for the training, in my business opinion, should not come out of ones personal account. WWDB tought to 1) open a seperate biz checking account 2)pay your biz account retail prices for personal use of products 3)deposit all bonuses into this account 4) use the biz account to buy and sell inventory/retail 5)use float/revenue in account for biz expenses - CDs, seminars, etc.
All in all - the WWDB method made biz sense to me. However, I question the effectiveness of the training, the conflict of interest between AmQuix and System biz profits, and sincerely dought that the training system costs are minimized.
Posted by: SpinStopsHere | March 31, 2006 6:35 AM