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March 1, 2006
Orrin Woodward's Team in News
By QBlog in TEAM
The Free Times, "Ohio's premier news, arts and entertainment weekly," has published an article about Orrin Woodward's Team (formerly Team of Destiny) that takes a very critical look at one of Quixtar's most beloved organizations.
The article, written by reporter James Renner, describes several aspects of Woodward's Team. Here are a few selected quotes:
"You will make two to three thousand a month if you put the energy into this system," he says. "It's only going to cost you around $250. The worst that can happen is you get a 25 percent rebate on everything you buy."
Actually, it can get worse...
...Technically, TEAM is not a pyramid scheme, according to federal and state guidelines. Robin Luymes, manager of PR for Quixtar, explains: "A pyramid scheme is based on the exchange of money without products. No money is exchanged in our business until products are purchased. Your income is purely derived from the movement of product."
Still, Woodward admits to having found a loophole to speed things up...
...Cleveland, he says, is on the verge of being taken over by TEAM. "It has exploded here. That's all I can tell you. There were six people in my first meeting, now there are sometimes a hundred. It works because it's so duplicatable."
But that's not really a word.
"Yeah, technically," he replies. "But 'ain't' wasn't a word either. Is now."
Check out the article and be sure to send James Renner an email to let him know what you think of it.
Comments
so much for different systems... sounds exactly like the one i was in...
2 points.
1. Stacking does take away initial profitability, but it also locks people in, and any outside volume, retail or other IBO's, is at a higher PV/BV scale, assuming you are not at the bottom of the stack.
2. Insider says they don't make much money on meetings, like the article says they do. Insider, who is right?
There are some very upset people in Cleveland! My first question is... What is network marketing? Does anyone know? I believe that anyone with a cell phone does "network marketing" when they tell their family or friends to sign up with the same cell phone company that they have so that they can call "In-network" and have their calls be for free. The only probem is you are not getting paid by the company to "market" their plan. There are questions and issues about pyramid schemes. How is isn't fair that the person at the top makes more money. Have you looked at where your checking account is? Who makes the most money there? Funny how the people that are the most critical, are those that do not know very much about what they are being critical about. I encourage you to research what "Network Marketing" is all about, and learn to tell the difference between somthing real or a scheme. There are many pros and cons to every business. Quixtar is not for someone who is happy with their secure job going to work every day, and getting 2-3 weeks of vacation a year, having to work over time or play the stock market to be able to send their children to college. It is for people who want more than that. You can make as little as $6.00 from Quixtar. That $6.00 may have come from a partner store such as "Barnes and Noble" or "Jo Ann Fabrics" I can go to the store and get what I want or I can shop online and get the same thing only with a check attached at the 15th of the month. Most of the time I do not even have to pay for the shipping. You decided, Check or no check. That $6.00 buys my kids tokens at "Chuck E. Cheese" Quixtar is not quick easy money, and if someone has presented that to you in that way I am sorry. It takes time, money, people and effort to build any business! Quixtar helps you to build an online business by supplying the products. You decide how big or small you want that business to be. You decided how much are you willing to help others achieve their goals.You decide whether or not to go to the meetings or purchase the education training tools. Do your research! Don't take someone elses word what Quixtar is all about. Some IBO's are only there for simple kick back from partner stores, some only want to make enough money to quit their Early morning paper route so they can sleep next to their loved ones a little longer. Why is that so bad? It is o.k. to want more and to step outside the comfort zone of our every day life of work. It is o.k. to work everday until you retire. The decision is yours. There is no magical myth to Quixtar, it does work. From six dollars to a million. I have seen it. The next time you go into "Circut city, or buy "Good Year" or "Kelly" tires, or how about those brakes that you just bought at "Advance Auto Parts" Think... CHECK or NO CHECK? That is what it is about. But the way I am not from Orris's team.
Andrea,
I am honestly curious. Will you post your income verses your expenses? My guess is that are like the tens of thousands of others who are losing money. I certainly don't want to offend you. However, I have done the research & it is only after the research that I am critical. So, will you post your income verses expenses?
truly, no offense andrea, but solid question bob! i used to argue the same ideals myself, i just never bothered to consider that i was tens of thousands of dollars in the red over several years. regardless of how pure a persons intentions are, nothin tells the tale like tax returns or an accurate p & l.
I was an IBO for about a year. Yeah, an year is a short time to see any results. But I had to shell out quite a bit, inspite of the distributor discount and at the end of the month I get a check for $6.00!!! Wonderful, isn't it? I spend a little over $500 and I get $6.00 back!
Quixtar only works if u are at the top of the pyramid and believe me, u feel the freedom when u decide to quit. Freedom is a state of mind and nothing, not Quixtar/Amway not anything else can get buy that.
"It is o.k. to want more and to step outside the comfort zone of our every day life of work. It is o.k. to work everday until you retire. The decision is yours." I second that.
Check out the website by Jeff Probst, a former Emerald and you'll get to know the nitty gritty of Quixtar/Amway. For those of you who think its 'negative' to do a background search before jumping the bandwagon, think again, please, for your sake, for u r hard earned money's sake, for your loved ones.......
Andrea,
To reduce your spending decisions to the "cheque or no cheque" question is just dumb. If I overcharged you 100% for regular household products, I could easily afford to give you a bonus cheque for a piece of that extra cash.
Who is your upline diamond? Jody Victor? Scott Micheal? Don Held?
I'd also suggest people learn the difference between a pyramid shape structure and a pyramid scheme. A pyramid shape structure is not illegal. Most companies have a pyramid structure. A pyramid scheme, on the other hand, is where the money flows up only from the people below.
An example of a pyramid scheme is a Ponzi scheme. You pay to play, and only get your money back when enough people below you do the same. A product pyramid scheme is set up exactly like a Ponzi scheme, with the difference between products do change hands. It is only when products are sold to retail cliense (non-participants) the plan becomes legal.
Think about the bank, Andrea. Who are the customers "paying" the bank to store their money there? Are they "retail" customers who do not work at the bank? Or are they only the employees of the bank? If they are just the employees, you got a pyramid scheme.
Thank you for being polite. Bob, ash, and nimblix. I guess I am different than most IBO's. I shop mainly with the partner stores. There are alot of things that I get through them that I normally could get at a regular superstore. I have three kids, 5 and younger that I hate to drag with me! It works for me. I live in the boonies here in Ohio and It takes me 1 hour to get to the closest Barnes and Noble. I am a teacher and enjoy the things that I can get from that store. I do not go to their website because I don't get a small kick back unless it is through Quixtar. I know a lot of people that enjoy XS Energy drinks more than Red Bull and others, and it is the same price. I am not an IBO that is in it for the all mighty FREEDOM. I just want to make a little money back. If it is extra cash for christmas great. I know someone that after the extra mark up price they still made enough money to quit that paper route. You don't have to travel far distances to tell people about Quixtar. I do not go to BDS because my team is not in this State. I do not purchase monthly tools from Legacy. I choose what I want to do. Jim70 I had to buy 8 tires for my two cars in Jan. I bought two at Walmart, and six from Goodyear a partner store through Quixtar. I drove to Good year/ Kelly store which is down the road from me and they put them on. They were the exact same price as Walmart. I did this in Jan. last mon. I recieved a $75.00 Check from Quixtar. Gee that paid for one of those tires. Did I buy anything else. Yes, new bra's from Lady grace another partner store. And sweat pants for my children from Hanes, another partner store. Make-up from Aristry, which by the way is cheaper than what I used to buy Lancome at Kauffmans. Things I have to buy anyway. Things that I have been purchasing for years. I totally agree. If you are an IBO in it to make tons of money you have got it wrong. Only the people at the top of the up-line make that. It is not impossible to get to the top but it takes alot of sacrifice, MONEY, and work. Is it something that you can afford? Probably not. What am I out? Nothing really because I do not purchase items that I do not need. My inital set up? I sold the products that I did not want, and if I do not make my monthly PV to get a check so what. I had to shop for those things anyways. I just did it at home instead of fighting with my two year old at the store because she wanted Dora. That is peace of mind. That is freedom. Smile, life should not be that complicated. Check it all out for yourself. The Good and the Bad. Ash is totally on target there is nothing wrong with doing a negative check. If you don't then shame on you for not checking. That is only common sense. My comments are not to offend anyone, and I am not saying Quixtar is the best, and that there is nothing wrong with it. But I don't think that it is as horriable as some make it out to be. You have to use caution and know what you want and don't want. For some of you it is obviously Quixtar that you don't want. And that is O.K.
Andrea,
Do you retail the products?
Andrea-
If you're only signing up with Quixtar to get a rebate check, why not use something that's free, like eBates? Same principle- shop online, get a percentage back.
www.eBates.com
Pretty passionate speeches for someone only interested in a few bucks.
Try not to blow too much on motivation, I know it ain't free.
Or cheap
Hi Andrea, thank you the very detailed response. You seem to be dictating your own terms in doing this 'business', as it is taught to be called. I hope this works for you.
But the point is, not everyone thinks as you do and get carried away by the riches shown to them and the speakers remind them about their dreams, the horrors of their J.O.B and their present status. If the person shown any signs of backing out, they are subject to emotional blackmailing. They are told that unless they are into the system, so called 'core', they would not succeed. Majority of people are decieved and the 'business' is not portrayed in the same way it is conducted. Information regarding the nitty-gritty of conducting this 'business' is withheld from the newcomer who signs up. Its only along the way, after starting to lose money that one gets to realise how little was told to them about the 'business'. I was not happy when I got a taste of this. Its probably my bitter association with Amway/Quixtar that makes me warn people about this. Its nice to hear varied views about his 'business' but I would never get into it again....ever.
I would very much appreciate your very honest opinion on one point though. I don't mean to offend you, but, do you think the company pays the bonuses??? Think again. There is no money flow from outside and so whatever is inside the pyramid got to be circulating, right? Many from the bottom of the pyramid have to lose for someone to be making money.
This point has been the one that made me withdraw from Amway/Quixtar. Please do not take this personally, Andrea. And I sincerely apologize if you are offended.
Man it sure is crazy that there are people who are so against Quixtar! First of all, as an IBO Quixtar is your supplier. Nothing more. You can choose to buy any of the millions, literally millions of products that they have to offer or you can sell them.Its your CHOICE. So I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be upset with Quixtar.
Ash not to be offensive but
"Think again. There is no money flow from outside and so whatever is inside the pyramid got to be circulating, right? Many from the bottom of the pyramid have to lose for someone to be making money.
This point has been the one that made me withdraw from Amway/Quixtar"
1)Well I hope in that case you do not pay taxes, or hope on using any money from social security to retire. Seeing as how the only money in that pyramid flows from the inside.
Aside from prices, ( Which vary in ANY store you may go to) I have yet to see anything that is actually negative towards QUIXTAR. The only negative comments that have been made, reffer to the particular training system which YOU CHOSE to be a part of. Your experience in the business as bad as it may of been is isolated between you and the upline that you worked with, and is in NO WAY a reflection of Quixtar or even your upline as a whole.
Thanx for your response, Frank.
My point was, that the products, most of them, are overpriced and jim70 said it right, "If I overcharged you 100% for regular household products, I could easily afford to give you a bonus cheque for a piece of that extra cash." This is what I meant by money circulating with in the pyramid.
ash, you said the reason that you withdrew from quixtar was that the person on the bottom was "losing" in order for someone to make money. Allthough I can easily debate the fact that the products are marked up 100%, lets say that that is correct. If the guy at the "top" pays a 100% mark up and the gut at the "bottom" pays a 100% markup as well. Where does this present an opportunity for the guy at the top to benefit?
Motel 6 one night $39.95
Hilton one night $215
What is the difference? Arent they both hotel rooms that you sleep in for one night? You wouldnt walk into the Hilton and say " I cant believe you would mark up these rooms over 100%!" The Hilton has a different marketing plan than Motel 6, so stop comparing Quixtar to Dirt-Mart.Thousands of people gladly and knowingly fork over $7 to $8 dollars for a twelve ounce beer at sporting events all around the country weekend after weekend after weekend, and I have yet to run across one blog that blasts that marketing concept.
Frank, I agree that both people at the "top" and the "bottom" have to pay up the 100% markup but people at the top get fatter bonuses than the ones at the bottom so, don't people at the bottom lose money when they pay the markup and those at the top make money coz of the huge downline group they have? more the number of people in ones downline, more the commission, unless otherwise the IBO is actively retailing the products, no matter what level they are in. Quixtar is a multi-level marketing thing, right?
Also, lets say that the people at the top don't make all that exxagerated money that we are told in the meetings, then, where does the rest of the mark up money go?
Frank: Motel 6 - dirty hotel room
Hilton - nice clean hotel room
SA8 - Laundry detergent, no more or less useful, concentrated, or mechanism than Tide
Consumer reports often places Q products on average to below average.
Why would you pay all the extra money? Convenience stores answer that: Convenience
Is Q really that convenient? No, not only do you pay extra money most of the time, but you also pay a shipping fee, then you have to wait a long while to get your products. Convenience is being able to stop at the place right next to your house and pay extra money fast what you need now.
As for things wrong with Q other than the MO’s, there is quite a list which I will not detail here, but one of the major things they do is that they SUPPORT and ASSIST the MO’s in their KNOWINGLY questionable practices.
Taxes and Social Security are not for profit businessess. They play by a different set of rules. All Quixtar IBO's are supposed to be businessess. And businessess exist for one sole reason, which is to profit.
Andrea, if you are your only customer, is there a chance you will ever profit? The answer, of course, is no. If you grow a downline and each downline is their only customer, will you be able to profit? What about your downline? The answer to the first question is yes, but the second answer is if and only if each downline grows a downline of her/his own that is big enough to turn a profit.
You see, just like in a Ponzi scheme, if there is no money coming in from non-participants, in AmQuix's case, IBO's, then you will either lose money, or make money by recruiting a large downline, who is losing money.
Now come the arguments about, "...but we are selling a product," or, "I like the products and the rebates," or, "It ain't illegal because the FTC or BBB approved the plan." All this is crap. Remember my first paragraph. Ask the IRS why a business exists. It is to profit, and inherintly, a buy from yourself and teach others to do so model is a model where the overwhelming majority can never profit! It is a pyramid scheme.
Andrea, sorry, but you should be a member or client. If you have no desire to profit, but are an IBO and filling out taxes, you are, and sorry to be blunt, defrauding the government. You should not be allowed the tax benefits of owning your own business. Quixtar is not a wholesale membership club (Costco).
Now, for Frank. See the problem with the marketing scheme? Say the rooms at Motel 6 and the Hilton are comprable for this argument. Say, for every person you personally convince to stay at the Hilton over the M6 you get a small cut of their room price. You would attempt to recruit others to pay the inflated price and stay at the Hilton, correct?
Problem is, so would others (competition). Eventually, the Hilton would be sold out (saturation) and while there would be people coming and going every night, would you be able to convince enough people to spend the extra cash to make up the difference in cost between the Hilton and the M6? Maybe, but would your "hotel downline" be able? And what about people who just want to crash for the night and have no desire to recruit others to stay in a hotel? What is their incentive to spend the extra money for a comprable hotel room?
The answer is, they have no incentive, and they all stay at the M6. So do people who have tried the Hilton, see they cannot turn a profit, and eventually go back to their old hotel sleeping habits. Cost is the number one reason why people shop where they do, and while there may always be a niche market for Hilton hotel rooms (Quixtar), by in large, most people who become Hilton (Quixtar) IROs (Independant Room Owners) eventually quit and go back to sleeping in the M6 (Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, K-Mart, grocery stores).
Andrea,
Do you retail the products?
Posted by: Tex at March 6, 2006 04:00 PM
Andrea, you haven't answered this question.
Andrea,
I am glad that you are checking the prices of the products you are purchasing. I have been out for a few years, so maybe these partner stores are a better value than the (non-quixtar) brand name products that were available to me through the personal shoppers catalouge.
When I was prospected, I was told that Amway took all the money that other companies spent on shipping and advertising, and re-routed it to distributors, making products cheaper and also giving people a chance to earn an income. Value for distributors, and value for consumers.
When I did my own price checks, I found that everyday items like Kellogg's cereal were FAR more expensive than I could get at the local supermarket.
I am unwilling to participate in a scheme were strict consumers (as compared to sponsor-ers) don't realize good value.
But you claim that now, (perhaps due to the partner-store model?), strict consumers can get fair value. If that is the case, then may the force be with you and good luck.
I just wish I had asked more questions, instead of giving blind trust to my sponsor ("friend").
jim70,
The partner store prices are either:
1. EXACTLY the prices you would find if you went to that store's web site, and the PV/BV bonus makes them less, and
2. Some stores run specials for IBO's, normally on commonly used merchandise.
However, Andrea needs to answer my question regarding retail. Andrea, do you retail?
Sorry that I have not been able to respond, but the bottom line is this
Retail profit from 3 boxes of double X: $75
Total cost of tools and functions per month: $52
Once a quarter there is a major function, so take the left over profit and save it to pay for that! This is WITHOUT one person in your downline. If you cannot sell three boxes of Double X than maybe you should not have got in business in the first place!
DMM if cost was the driving force behind everything then everyone would shop at Dollar General. The marketing concept is not to save the most money, but to make money from establishing a network of like minded individuals who are tired of giving away hard earned dollars to families and companies that are doing just fine. I do not pay an over-inflated cost or mark-up on my products. Infact I get paid to use the products I buy from Quixtar! If you reach the 2500 or 18% bonus level, then your bonus check is more than the cost of doing(if all you do is) 100pv.
Cost is the number one reason why people shop where they do. The low cost leader is Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is the number one retailer in the world. That lead is so big, that Wal-Mart does in 3 months what the number 2 retailer (Home Depot) does in a year! It cost is why people shop at Wal-Mart, because it certainly is not convenience, cleanliness, or friendlyness of the staff!
As for the like minded people, if you are selling to IBO's only, you are in for trouble. You must sell to those who are non-IBO's (members clients). Otherwise, either you are losing money, or you are making money because you have recruited like minded people, who are losing money.
Say Quixtar products are, in general, 25% more then other retail products. At the bottom level, with zero member/client/retail volume, you get 3% back. Therefore, you are out 22%. You add 6 in your downline (no depth), and while you will recoup some of your money, those 6 are now all out 22% of their money. They can all recruit too, but those at the bottom are always spending more then before! And eventually, with this kind of exponential growth, you will run out of people!
Again, what is the incentive to buy from AmQuix if it is not the rebate/money making ability? The answer is there isn't much, which is why member/client volume is so low. So what you got is the product pyramid scheme described above. Sell to members/clients, lose money, or make money by having a downline losing money.
Personally, I'll let Sam's kids get richer because it ultimately costs me less. And a penny saved is a penny earned.
DMM refer back to my post man. I have not been tought nor do I teach to lose money! I have no problem marketing products to non IBO's. If people in your downline do not make money then they do not stick around for very long. Your job as an upline is to help the people you bring into the business become profitable. If this theory did not work then why is Quixtar the largest MLM out there?
Frank said: I have not been tought nor do I teach to lose money! I have no problem marketing products to non IBO's. If people in your downline do not make money then they do not stick around for very long. Your job as an upline is to help the people you bring into the business become profitable.
TD - This was not my experience. We consistently lost money in our 11 year involvement with Amway/Quixtar. Our upline could have cared less and we were told to stay "plugged in" to the system, regardless of our non-profitability. Whenever we spoke to them about scaling back our spending on 'tools' so that we could become profitable, we were told that it wasn't "duplicatible".
If the theory DID work, why is the average income only $115/month BEFORE expenses?
The relative size of the pyramid, in light of the outrageous attrition rate and overall lack of retail sales, is irrelevant - it's like arguing the legitimacy of the Gambino Family Enterprises because, after all, they're the biggest one out there.
CK, I sense a little resentment towards your former upline. I am sorry that your experience was as bad as it was. However, how many people enroll in the local university where you live as opposed to graduate? This is the reason why the "average" IBO makes $115. People get in, and then get out without doing anything. You could imagine that that would severely bring down the average. As I am sure you have a law degree, you found something the combined legal teams of Circuit City, Barnes & Noble, IBM, and all of the other 300 partner stores who affiliate their name with Quixtar could not find! You should inform them of this major discovery!
Frank,
I'll say it again. I certainly don't want to sound offensive. Yet my question remains the same. Will you, or any other IBO, up to and including any diamond simply post your verifiable Quixtar income versese expenses? Diamonds brag about $250,000 a year in WWDB. Doesn't that make their income public knowledge. Why then will not one of them prove it with their tax returns? I contend the answer is very simple. The vast majority of their income does not come from Quixtar. It comes from the tools you buy and the functions you attend. It would be so easy to prove Quixtar success by simply posting verifiable income. Yet no one will do it. I wonder why.
Bob,
Ill tell you why, they dont need to! Who are you to impress? I am not at the level in which I make money yet from tools but, I have always remained profitable by retailing product. Again,
3 Cases DoubleX RETAIL Profit: $75
One Month OM and SOT: $52
What business do you get into without monthly expenses?
However, from the very beginning it was explained to me that as you excell in your business that you would also recieve system money as well. Never in my mind did I think that if I paid for something that someone was not profiting from it somewhere.Thats pretty much common sense.
Frank,
I am no one special who is worthy to be impressed. However, I think you still miss my point. Do you deliver the products you retail? Or do the folks pick them up from you? Do you spend money on gas & maybe accomidations when you go to a function? The profit you show is $23 per month. How much time do you spend talking to people & trying to increase sales? Twenty three dollars a month before expenses and taxes with no benefits doesn't seem to be profit. For one hour a week at a minimum wage job, you can make more. I contend that as your sales increase, so will you expenses. So, I'll go back to my original question. At $23 per month before expenses and taxes, can you show a verifiable income tax return that shows your profit? I do thank you for your willingness to share.
I am not missing the point. in the Quixtar model when you get a retail customer, you set them up on something called ditto delivery. What that is is basically an automatic order fufillment system. The work I did to get clients 6 months ago has long been completed, however I still recieve the profits month after month. The corporation sends them the products. I recieve a check.Understood? As an employee with employee mentality it is hard to comprehend being paid more than one time for work already accomplished. 40hrs=40hrs then you do the same thing over and over. With residual income I start the beginning of the month where I left off the month previous.I am not willing to post my income information. I dont need to, neither do you.I take your word for your word. I command the same respect.
Frank,
Your response is just like the diamonds who also won't post their income. While they make claims of huge incomes, I know for sure of one diamond whose house was foreclosed on for nonpayment (by the way - after 7 months of not making his house payment, he was on stage teaching about ethical and wise financial management). I also know of an an emerald who claimed to be financially independent. However, his divorce declaration that he wrote told a much different story. Here is my point. Why would you simply trust me as you stated at the end of your last response? You don't even know me. When you put a blind trust in people, you open the door to be taken advantage of. I think Ronald Reagan said it best, "Trust and verify." According to Quixtar data, the average Q-12 platinum only makes about $41,000 per year. Now take out travel expenses, spring leadership, FED, family reunion, open rallys, time spent showing the plan over and over and over again. Now take out social security taxes, federal witholding taxes, etc. How much is left for someone who makes it to the platinum level (less than one half of a percent) or 1 out of 200. Maybe the take home is about $25,000 per year. Now pay for medical insurance, etc. I am sorry. I amy have an employee mentality, but I don't see where the cream of the platinum crop is doing that well. I continue to appreciate our spirited debate.
Bob,
I was using the DoubleX example as just that an example.The point that I am trying to make is that the main argument that I am seeing regarding the system is that you are somehow paying tons of money into the education from the business, and only the "kingpins" are making any money. This is ridiculously false. You can more than pay for your tools with three measley boxes of doubleeX.I am not trying to offend anyone here I really would like to see everyone succeed at something they enjoy. But lets be honest for a second. Thousands of people in Quixtar are extremely successful, thousands are not. What is the difference between the two? It is not luck,chance,good looks, race,who you know or how much money you have coming in. It is simply the work ethic.The people who are more "wide" meaning they "signed up" or sponsored more people personally will receive a bigger performance bonus. Isnt that the way it should be though? I mean it is called a PERFORMANCE bonus! If you work hard at a job, say milking cows for example and were paid hourly. You could milk 1 cow or 1000 cows in fact, you could be the world record holding cow milker and still be paid the same hourly wage. Where(or who) does the benefit of your hard work go to? I know the example is ridiculous but you can apply the example to any line of time for money work.You have no control of what your employer feels that you should be paid. At least Quixtar gives you the ability to profit from your own hard work.
Bob,
Platinums in WWDB do not have to pay for admission to functions.
Taxes are paid on any self-employment income and all business have expenses. Try figuring the expenses on a real estate or insurance business: the phone lines, the yellow pages ads, etc. Quixtar expenses pale by comparison. Plus, this business can still be operated as a sideline in addition to one's regular job, where the health insurance is usually a benefit.
Frank and Emminemm,
Emminemm, You are right. Platinums do not have to pay for functions. Not only that, they also receive a commission off of the price you pay. So do the emeralds & ofcourse the diamonds get the lions share. Here is a good example. FED has 15,000 IBOs in attendance. Each pays $125. That is $1,875,000 paid by low level IBOs who are trying to build a business. The Rose Quarter in Portland costs about $60,000 per day to rent. That is $180,000. Throw in 15,000 meals provided at $15 a piece to those 15,000 IBOs. That is is $225,000. Thus the cost to Worldwide is about $405,000. Let's round that up to $500,000 to cover incidentals. That means low level IBOs pay $1,875,000 to go to FED. It costs the "high pins" $500,000. That means at FED, over $1,000,000 is taken out of the pockets of struggling IBOs & put into the pockets of the kingpins (along with some commission to platinums and above). After, that FED, they go do another one. Cha ching - another million from lower level IBOs to the kingpins. Then it is off to Spring Leadership; then to Dream Night. And ofcourse there are the tapes, books & CDs. I am sorry guys. I've looked at it closely & the way I see it - the money is in the tools & functions. If the $345,000,000 Quixtar paid in bonuses in 2005 only went to the top 10% of IBOs (eliminate the other 90%), each of the top 10% would still only make $174 a week before expenses and taxes. The math tells the story. Finally, I'll ask again. Why isn't there an IBO who will post their verifiable income from Quixtar?
Bob, I really dont know where to go from here. I dont know where you get your math from but if you have access to the Quixtar website take a look at the growth incentive bonuses for the different levels of the business. I guess for someone who only appeals to have a negative view of the subject, you will refuse to give in to logic.Bob, I have no financial gain from writing any of these comments. I have personaly seena few people get in the business and within weeks turn a profit, months pass me up! Simply due to the fact that they did more work.Do you think that all of the higher ups sit around and think of ways to get your money? They will be successful with or without you or me. The question is do you want to be a part of it or not? For your sake I hope that one day you find someone dumb enough to post their "verifiable" income. If they did, what would that prove? Would you join the business under them?Would you say that they made income from ripping people off? Why dont you post your 1040ez form online? What would be the point?
Frank,
You said - Bob, I have no financial gain from writing any of these comments. - Disagree. As the word continues to get out about how much money the "kingpins" get from their tool systems, you will not be able to register folks. The "kingpins" need to come clean or get out.
If this 'business'it is so great how do you explain the high turnover?
College was used as an example of people quitting. I'd bet the turnover (dropout rate) in THIS business is greater than ANY school in the country.
if the products are such great value, why aren't people spending more time selling that recruiting?
sorry, but I too defended the Dateline expose, and had all the same 'tapespeak' as suppporters here.
Those supporters just haven't been 'IN' long enough yet.
Frank,
If I were proclaiming to make $250,000 profit a year in a business; and if I were asking you to trust me; and if I were telling you that if you buy my CDs, books & attend my lectures & seminars; and if I were were telling you that you could have what I have from this business - then YES I would be willing to prove that my income claims are true. When the attouney general of the state of Wisconsin obtained the tax records of ALL Wisconsin Amway Directs - guess what - not one was making a profit from Amway (now Qixtar). Yet, on stage and in public they were all touting their profitibility. There are lots of ways to make money. I simply believe Quixtar is one of the worst. However, I genuinely wish you the best in your pursuit. By the way, I am not ONLY negative minded. I have listened to many CDs with an open mind; I have been to Diamond Seminars with an open mind; I attended FED in Portland with an open mind. It is only after all of this that I realize the big money is not in Quixtar, it is in Quixtar the selling of dreams (showing off hummers & mansions that were bought with the profits from tools) and claiming it is bought with profits from Quixtar. Anyway, I think you ar right. We will likely not come to agreement. I wish you well.
NO ONE WILL EVER SHOW YOU PROOF OF INCOME.
not only won't they show, or tell, YOU WILL BE TRAINED, NOT TO ASK.
You'll see.
It will be "so you don't hurt someone's feelings, in case they have been struggling awile"
WHAT THEY CAN SHOW YOU IS 'AWARD VOLUME'.
That is your Pv-Bv RIGHT FROM Quixtar.
AND SEE IT FOR 3 MONTHS BACK, so no one can transfer or manipulate.
Tex,
First of all once again, the moment I got in this buisiness the tool system and income was explained to me. Any sane person would realize if you are buying something from someone that somebody is profitting off of that. Right? I looked at that and said w"Wow you mean you can make even more money?Awesome."If somebody trains you how to do something, shouldnt they be paid or compensated for that?Or should everything be free?
Secondly,this website or anyother like it or negative people in general have absolutley no impact on anybody I work with. If you are telling people the right information to start with, when they see information like this they laugh!
Willy,
If you are employed, or ever have been. Its common courtesy not to ask people what they make or are getting paid. If someone offers that information well that is different. But try walking around the old J-O-B tommorrow and asking all your superiors how much they are making.
BOb,
I still have never understood why people who criticize the few bad apples in Quixtar or Amway and are in fear of being sold dreams will go tomorrow and put their how familys trust in a J-O-B who will without thinking twice lay you off or reduce your income to please the stock holders.Who by the way probably did not show you proof of their financial statements before you started working there.IF YOU LOOK FOR THE BAD, GUESS WHAT YOU WILL FIND?
Frank,
I am glad they told you. I wasn't told. How much income does the average Emerald, Diamond, etc. make in your system?
FRANK SAID>> I looked at that and said w"Wow you mean you can make even more money?Awesome."If somebody trains you how to do something, shouldnt they be paid or compensated for that?Or should everything be free?
Frank, I don't even know where to begin. First of all, all legitimate sales organisations provide free training to their salesmen. Because they are primarily in the business of selling their products/services to an end-customer. NOT sell training to its own salesmen. A better trained salesman will provide better returns by selling more products and selling it more efficiently. As far as your, "Wow, I get to make more money" comment, you don't have any gaurantees pal. Show me the equivalent of the SA-4400 showing the System-income is split. Thirdly, using the word "training" for the nonsense these "Diamonds" peddle, is a joke. I can pretty much sum up 90% of the CDs in three sentences - "JOB NOT GOOD, NO SECURITY. CONVENTIONAL BUSINESS TOO RISKY. ONE BUSINESS GOOD, AMWAY/QUIXTAR BUSINESS."
Training, my foot!
FRANKS SAID>> Willy, If you are employed, or ever have been. Its common courtesy not to ask people what they make or are getting paid. If someone offers that information well that is different. But try walking around the old J-O-B tommorrow and asking all your superiors how much they are making.
Wow, that's quite a presumption! "Or ever have been employed". Of course not, Willy was never employed in his life, he's just a bum, am I right Willy ;-)? Frank, I know you will find the "Ambot/Quixbot" comment offensive, but I am at a loss here. Every Quixtar/Amway apologist makes this ridiculous, juevnile argument! Consider. I have a Hotel for sale. You are the prospective buyer. I tell you that I am doing $1.85 million in sales, and that I am netting a profit of $200,000 after all expenses, every year. My asking price for the business is $3 Million. But, when you ask to see my books to verify my statement, I tell you that I can't do it because that information is private. What do you do? Just take my word for it and fork over the $3 Mil? If not, why not?
It's a business, you are supposed to do your due diligence! You know, I truly feel sorry for all the Quixtar apologists who are still in and brainwashed, but this has got to take the cake. Who gets into a business without doing due diligence? You deserve to lose your money. Geez! A 10-year old kid could understand this.
FRANK SAID>> Who by the way probably did not show you proof of their financial statements before you started working there.
It's a job, you ninny! You are not buying a business, they have no obligation to reveal their financial information to you! They offer you a job with promise to pay you a certain salaray or hourly pay for the work you are doing. And I can bet you will get paid what you were promised, if not you definitely have legal recourse.
Pathetic! Maybe, trying to convert a Quixbot is indeed a lost cause!
Oh man you are so un-perceptive! If someone is offering free sales training its because they are making way more money off of you than you are. If you work at McDonalds they give you a free uniform. Also, there are several different systems within Quixtar so maybe the Cds you heard said that, but I wont be as un-perceptive enough to think that they all say that.By the way there are NO gaurantees in life pal. You might not be employed next week since you rely on another man to tell you what youre worth.Training: I have learned more in one function than I learned all through my formal education. I suggest you attend your local spring leadership.
Secondly,
It wasnt a put down, you are the one who is presuming. Is there a slight chance that Willy is self-employed? Also to defuse this argument all I have to say is this, THANK GOD it only costs $75 bucks to be an IBO which is refundable for up to a year! NOt anywhere near 3 million. I could teach a 10 year old how to make $75 bucks in a year! Its OK dont worry about me, Im here to talk to the 95%'ers who like you say are getting paid hourly. IS there any limit to the amount of money you can make in the United States? Is there any limit to the amount of time you have? Only 24 hours. So does it make sense to trade something that you have al imited amount of, for something that you could have un-limited amounts of? Maybe your not that perceptive. Whos the Ninny?
FRANK SAID>> I have learned more in one function than I learned all through my formal education. I suggest you attend your local spring leadership.
Pray, tell us, what was this amazing wisdom that you received in on function? Just ONE of the pearls of wisdom that were imparted to you. It could help the other IBOs on here, who are listening to the CDs that I listened to.
FRANK SAID>> It wasnt a put down, you are the one who is presuming. Is there a slight chance that Willy is self-employed?
I know that, Frank, I was just trying to rile you up ;-), got to lighten up the atmosphere here a little. It's almost getting as tense as other lengthy post "Ten thousand to four hundred"....
Frank,
Are you going to answer my question?
Yeah.. my bad on creating tension. The forum is a much better place to bounce around to serious, and not so serious, topics. Keeps things lighter, and thus more valuable for all.
Side note: last i checked, the registration fee follows the 180-day money back guarantee. But thats still pretty darn good. Better than those 4Xmadeeasy, or WizeTrade things... 3 days money back? You cant check things out that fast...
Keep pushing Frank. You can make whatever you want happen, just believe in yourself.
(I will be a great parent one day... You can do it Johnny!! Just Believe!!! , nothing against the name Johnny, but i prolly wont name my kid that... i'd have to think of another name for jokes :-) Laterz
Emminem said:
"Try figuring the expenses on a real estate or insurance business: the phone lines, the yellow pages ads, etc. Quixtar expenses pale by comparison."
Quixtar profits pale by comparison as well. Check and mate Big M.
Frank the think tank,
You are obviously new here, so I'm trying to understand. Sorry dude, you lost me with the
"I have learned more in one function than I learned all through my formal education. I suggest you attend your local spring leadership."
Based on your arguments, I believe you $100%.
I hope you don't blow too much on motivation. That's where the diamonds make all their money you know. Functions, tapes/CDS, books, etc..
Did you know that? Don't you think them telling you that these things are what you need to succeed, but having to buy it from them is a conflict of interest?
Never mind, if you learned more at your first function than from all of your formal education, you probably won't be able to figure this out.
That must have been one hell of a function.
Or else you were really stupid to begin with.
Tex,
sorry I couldnt tell you the "average". MY upline emerald made 180k from quixtar + tools.
Perceptive,
Part of the knowledge I recieved is that you and only you are responsible for where you are in life! If you accept the fact that you are worth only 6.50/hr then thats your choice.
Frank,
I applaud you for sticking up for the Quixtar system. Reading all these comments it seems to me that the majority are being mis-informed. I love being an IBO and I love the products. When I went inactive for a couple of years(out of pure stupidity) I realized how great the concept is. The products are equal or better than the best. And when you decided to treat it as a business it does work. I know a lot of people are too hung up on the slave mentality of a job, but in reality everything you get in life is from what you put into it. As a hairdresser, if I don't attend training and don't keep up w/my tools-which by the way costs- then I am no better than someone who does not know how to cut. W/that type of work everyone seems to think they know what they are doing. That is not always the case, as I had to fix alot of that. So what I am trying to say is you are what you have put into yourself. I have watched my boss struggle to put her business together, after buying the shop, buying materials, stocking on merchandise, passing out flyers, advertising and paying us, and trying to pay all the bills. I do not want to have to go through that. I don't stock and I don't have overhead. I do my business when I want to, unlike working when I have to. I have read a lot of negativity about Quixtar and realize it is like anything, you will always have some bad apples that make the rest of it look bad. Like where I work, for every negative referral you lose 5 or so potential clients and for every good cut you gain 1. It seems that too many have listened to the negative and done too much research on the internet. The internet is not all it is cracked up to be. People like to bring others down w/them and don't want to see them succeed. Alot of the people who are making this happen are out enjoying the fruits of their labor and are not wasting their time online. I know when I am out enjoying life I am not wasting my time on this computer.
And for the people who are losing money-start treating this as a business, not a pasttime. I will be honest in saying when I did that when I started it was b/c I did nothing w/the business and expected to get something for nothing. But that is not how life works. Their is only one thing that is free in life and that is salvation in Jesus Christ, o/s of that ...
Rocket,
I am new here your right. And I wont be here for long either.
" Dont look for the living among the dead"
Cmon man read some of the previous posts to answer some of your own comments.Ever heard of look before you leap?
Do you know how and why the education system was started?
Tex,
sorry I couldnt tell you the "average". MY upline emerald made 180k from quixtar + tools.
Perceptive,
Part of the knowledge I recieved is that you and only you are responsible for where you are in life! If you accept the fact that you are worth only 6.50/hr then thats your choice.
It said, "Tex" at the bottom of that comment. Was that you Tex, or was that you Frank?
IT was Frank
Hey Suz! Hey Frank!
First off, Suz, I feel sorry for you. Seriously. You are exactly the type of person ripe for the picking for Quixtar. You consider a job slavery, yet in the same sentence you say that in reality everything you get in life is from what you put into it. Some people choose to do that with thieir job.
Your boss struggled trying to put a conventional busiess together. The diamond speeches often describe their similar efforts. It's not a cake walk either way.
Your boss, however, does not profit at the expense of many.
You say the internet maybe isn't all its cracked up to be. Perhaps the same can be said for Quixtar.
I am not interested in bringing people down to my level. I'm actually at a pretty high level, so I couldn't care less. You will be at a lower level than you presently are if you stick with Quixtar. I think people need to be informed.
Before you say it, I am informed. Check the archives...I've been here a while now, or my site, or many other sites set up by people who lost more and were in longer than I was. There's many who know more than I about the negatives of Quixtar. You choosing to ignore then doesn't mean they don't exist.
Frankie boy, I don't care why the education was started. I know what it does now.
I probably should apologize for the stupid comment.
I promise I won't call you stupid again, as long as you don't say something that foolish again.
Rocket,
You see in other people what you see in yourself. So, dont apologize to me, I dont need it. It is sad though that you are so angry.It dosnt matter how many people you know that are or were in Quixtar that lost, because I can point you to just as many that are successful. Using your own comment,"You choosing to ignore them doesn't mean they don't exist.."So get over yourself.
Rocket,
You see in other people what you see in yourself. So, dont apologize to me, I dont need it. It is sad though that you are so angry.It dosnt matter how many people you know that are or were in Quixtar that lost, because I can point you to just as many that are successful. Using your own comment,"You choosing to ignore them doesn't mean they don't exist.."So get over yourself.
Rocket,
What company do you work for?
FRANK SAID>> Perceptive,
Part of the knowledge I recieved is that you and only you are responsible for where you are in life!
Seriously, Frank, you needed to go to a function to figure that out? How pathetic is that! Maybe you weren't really paying attention during "all your formal education"....
Come on, let's hear something original - you know, a little bit more profound.... Let me remind you of your original statement - "I have learned more in one function than I learned all through my formal education". Pretty impressive statement - I just want the other IBOs (who are listening to the CDs that I quoted) to benefit from your wisdom. Just ONE of the many profound pearls of wisdom (remember what you said - more than you learned through all your formal education) that you received at that ONE function.
FRANK SAID>> If you accept the fact that you are worth only 6.50/hr then thats your choice.
Frank, how did you assume that I have accepted $6.50/hr? Heck, how do you know I work on an hourly basis, and not on a straight salary? And, is there a possibility that I am self-employed ;-)....?
Look guys we can go back and forth forever. The bottom line is this. You and the people you know are upset because you got a bit of the truth, and found out that you couldnt hack it.Ive been an employee and i am also in Quixtar. I am intelligent enough to know where I am getting the most returns. If you focused even half the effort that you did in trying to ruin peoples lives by turning them away from something that could ultimately help them, then you would have been more than happy with the results. BWW has changed mine and my familys lives forever. For the good. You can continue to work for the next 40 to 50yrs to still be unhappy. Go ahead I will have been unemployed to spend the most valuable asset I have (time) doing the things that really matter in life. Perceptive ,
You obviously still havent figured out that you controll where you are at in life or else you would have been successful in Quixtar right? Again find someone who can get you a ticket to Spring Leadership. If you pay attention instead of trying to disprove everything the speakers are saying, you might catch a couple of "PEARLS OF WISDOM" With this you will not here from me again, I will be to busy EARNING what is naturally mine, my freedom. And I will be looking for people who will not accept the fact that their boss will make their decisions for them at whatever job they are temporarily employed at. Good Luck to all of you, you will need it.
Good luck Frank. I will continue to read and post, however. For there needs to be a voice on Quixtar's side that can say "That isn't on my team." That way, when someone comes here "researching" the business opportunity, they will get both sides.
Frank,
Just answer my question - it's a simple question.
I am trying to help out a poor struggling IBO. Your ONE pearl of wisdom, just might be the ticket.
Isn't this "business" about "people helping people"?
Frank, what makes you think I was ever part of this scam? Could it be that your upline has informed you that those naysayers on the internet are just 'losers' who 'couldn't make it' in the 'business'?
I was never in.
And as to your attempt at condescension regarding 'being a lawyer', you are either a few IQ points short of a gross, or are deliberately obtuse: I was pointing out the flaw in your analogy, claiming the the 'bigness' of a thing proves it's legitimacy.
I chose the mafia for my analogy specifically in light of the Blakey Report (you do know that one of the co-authors of the RICO statutes, after researching AmQuix, determined that the company and it's MO's are similar to the mafia, don't you?), but was simply doing so to point out the fallacy of the 'it's big ergo it's good' philosophy.
One needn't be a lawyer to understand that. But even a lawyer, having fallen under the brainwashing of BWW and it's ilk, might have a little trouble.
I also greatly enjoy the '95% of people are on hourly' comments, because I thought you people were supposed to sponsor UP! I'm not on hourly, neither is my husband, and quite frankly, I don't know that many people who are hourly workers.
Frank,
I am still waiting.
And so is the poor IBO that I am trying to help - he is desperate. Your ONE pearl of wisdom just might be his ticket to salvation.
Please don't let him down.
Perceptive> Frank is gone. Said that he wouldn't be back. If he is what he's trying to portray, he'll stick to his WORD and not come back...
CK> If you were never involved with the Quixtar "scam", would you mind telling me what makes you an expert on the inner workings of my line of sponsorship?
creylish, I don't see any posting by CK that claims s/he's an expert on the inner workings of your line of sponsorship.
To Bob: So I caught you in a lie, you had to admit that Platinums do not pay for functions. Not only that, you also changed your mind three times on whether Platinums make a good income from Quixtar! First you state they pay for all these System tools and expenses, bringing their income down to $25,000. Then you state in your rebuttal to me they don't have System expenses but actually make lots of money off of it!! Then in your response to Frank, you claim Directs make no profit at all! So which is it??
Well so much for the credibility of that critic.
As for you rocket, you can read, but can you comprehend? Quixtar's data shows that a Platinum income is in excess of $40,000. Bob admitted there are no System expenses for Platinums. As I had stated, this is a sideline business in addition to a Platinum's regular job with expenses much less than a comparable small business such as insurance or real estate. A self-employed insurance or real estate agent won't net much more money and will have a much larger time commitment as well.
Nice try.
Best wishes, luck, and happiness to Suz and Frank. I too attempted this blog area as a psuedo "battleground"... it doesnt work. I do think, however, the Forum might be a good place. More interaction, and a little more civil discussions are there. I have actually learned a lot more back and forth in that environment than here.
It does get tough, rocket/perceptive rewritting over and over agian what you have written for day/weeks and years? IF only peope were as persistant and consistent in the business :lol:
http://www.amquix.info/probst/whoiam.htm
Hi all, could you please spare some time to go thro' this website. It will help quixtar and non-quixtar people to understand how quixtar works.
Inspite of this, if anyone would still want to be in this, well, this is a free world. Atleast you would be making a concious choice.
LOL!! Yeah go to the photo album section. Probant says, ".."I am providing the following pictures to help you understand that I do associate with the higher level Amway® distributors..."
Jeff Probant spent about 12 seconds apiece getting his picture taken with Severns, Duncans, Brooks and Bill Hawkins at some function about 15 years ago. Truth is, NONE of them even remember him at the event! Well so much for association!
Emminemm,
I must correct you. You did not catch me in a lie. I said functions are an expense. I am not talking about the cost of a ticket. Let me ask you, "Does the platinum have to pay to get to the function (things like gas for his car; motel room costs, meals. These my friend are function expenses. Or do you think that all of these costs are also covered by the inflated ticket prices paid by the lower level IBOs? Which is it? Many platinums have to either drive or fly to the functions. Who pays for the gas or plane ticket? Every time they drive to show a plan or try to replace the huge number of downline that drops out every year - who pays for the gas, etc? Next, it is well documented that the Wisconsin attorney general DID conclude that the directs in Wisconsin were losing money. Before you decide someone is "caught in a lie", do your research. Just google the terms Amway Wisconsin attorney general. It will get you there. Furthermore, there are more than a few ex-diamonds who did make it to the top & who can speak from experience. They will tell you that 80 plus percent of their income came from tools, not Quixtar. I appreciate your spirited debate.
Well Big M, I guess the platinums shouldn't be paying for the functions since they usually have to work at them.
duh
How many people reach platinum? Not many.
I'd be willing to wager that most at home real estate agents etc would have more clear PROFIT than the average IBO.
Even if they didn't (not likely) at least they're not spending a pile of time on the road showing a joke of a business, consuming overpriced product, and hearing Dexter Yager comparing himself to Jesus.
And they aren't bugging people at bookstores either, dude.
Creylish, I am no expert regarding the 'inner workings' of BWW (I'm assuming that's your line of sponsorship).
DH, however, has been caught in their web of deception since about 1995.
I attended several 'functions' and 'meetings' with him, in an effort to not only support him, but to try to see what he saw.
Among the things I was told or overheard:
a) BWW has less than a 1% divorce rate >
b) There is NO PROFIT in tools. >
c) Fake it til you make it >
d) He was given specific numbers about how many plans he had to show to get X number of distributors (now euphamistically referred to as 'IBO's), clients, etc. He's shown the plan at least a thousand times. He has 6 in his dowline, and perhaps another 6 who got in and got out. When he mentioned that his numbers come nowhere near to the ones claimed, he was told to buy another CD that 'addresses that very issue'...and the CD basically said "I showed the plan a million times, but the 1,000,001 person got in, and look at me now!!!" Very helpful >
e) I attended, at DH's request, a 'beauty seminar' with some of his female downline. Most of the seminar revolved around how high a stack of one billion dollar bills would reach. About 30 minutes actually dealt with the Artistry line and how to market it. Those tickets were $60 each, and included a $12 lunch, a very good value >.
It was very clear to me, within a matter of weeks, that this was a scam to make money off the tools and off of DH purchase of household items at approximately 2.5 times the price we used to pay.
And it works beautifully >.
Let me ask you a question, Frank. How much do you sell a month, on average, to members/clients?
The reason I ask is because if you sell a good volume of product to members/clients, you can be profitable. It is how the business is designed to be run. Problem is, the majority of IBO's do not do a high member/client volume, and most were told that is not the way to run their business!
I was told, "Just buy from yourself and teach others to do so." Unfortunately, this is a sure fire way to either lose money, or make money by recruiting a downline who is losing money. The math is there for those who wish to see it. I was told you do not have to retail or sell. Just recruit.
And selling AmQuix products is difficult. They are higher priced and in my opinion, no better quality then most other brands. That is not saying the products are poor quality, but for me, they are not worth the price. I'd say the majority would agree with me too. At best, there is a small niche market for AmQuix products.
I'm also a bottom line guy. And the bottom line says the average AmQuix distributor makes about $115/month. Yes that is skewed by those that make nothing, but it is also skewed by those that make a lot of money. For every one person who makes $250,000/year, for the average to work out, it means about 181 people are making nothing! Either that is a lot of lazy people, or AmQuix doesn't work as advertised.
In the end, I passed on the AmQuix "opportunity." I did not want to be a part of a product pyramid scheme, and I didn't want to work hard to find the niche of people who I could retail AmQuix products to. Too much work for too little return, in my opinion. To those who have found the niche, congratulations and good luck. For those who are still spinning their wheels and not making any money, make a business plan, set some goals, and re-evaluate after some time to see if AmQuix is really worth it.
No I must correct you Bob, you said: "Now take out travel expenses, spring leadership, FED, family reunion, open rallys, ..."
You clearly listed "expenses" separately from the functions you named, unless you meant to say, "travel expenses of going to spring leadership.... " But I get a feeling you are doing a little more back-pedaling than clarification.
Around here, the major functions are located close-by. Except for maybe one function, the travel/gas expenses are not significant.
I don't know anything about Wisconsin directs, years and years ago (are/were another organization). What does that have anything to do with anyone I am associated with?
As far as ex-diamonds speaking from experience, tell me one WWBD diamond in this role.
I stand by my assertion that Platinum level, even with expenses, generates a good side-line income compared with similar small-businesses. How many make it? As discussed in the forums by Insider, those who are core can, and usually, make it. I have seen it myself, speakers asking auditoriums full of IBOs, who operated at a specific work ethic for a given amount of time, usually were reaching the silver level.
I will challenge you rocket, on your supposed belief that real estate agents make a significantly better income. Read the March 5 issue of the New York Times Magazine for an eye-opener on that. It's not a side-line business and I'll take both of you on about expenses of a business like that, especially miles on a car. Add on office rent, phone lines, yellow page ads, office equipment, help, etc.. go ahead, add it up and come back and tell me what THAT amounts to.
I have not met Dexter Yager, nor ever heard him speak. As far as "bugging" people in bookstores, you're getting confused with someone else, bub.
Big M,
Hang in there, you may convince someone.
"I'll take both of you on about expenses of a business like that, especially miles on a car. Add on office rent, phone lines, yellow page ads, office equipment, help, etc.. go ahead, add it up and come back and tell me what THAT amounts to."
Dude! I thought we were talking about HOME BASED real estate businesses. I know 2 people who run a real estate business from their home. I'm pretty sure they're making more than $100/month. They also deduct for their phone etc. on income tax.
Don't even go there with the miles on the car my friend. The only time that they actually drive anywhere is to show a house.
Wait for it........
They do everything else ONLINE and over the phone!
Wow! It's not even an online entity and it's more efficient than your "business", bub.
Nope, I said small-business with a comparable net income after expenses. So do your friends have all their clients come over to go over paperwork, sign contracts, view listings, etc? They still have to advertise, purchase office/computer equipment, etc. Sounds like a high-class moneymaker if you ask me!
They do have a separate room in their homes for meeting with clients.
GASP! The listings are online!! Clients give what they're looking for, check out the website(s) with interior & exterior photos, then go see what they're interested in.
The 2 folks doing this I know are agents for big corporations. They do no advertising at all. They use their home computer for their business. The corp. provides the software.
I can assure you Big M, they make more than the average IBO.
They also don't have to spend a bunch of money on motivation either. Houses seem to sell themselves.
Later, Skater!
Creylish said>> Perceptive> Frank is gone. Said that he wouldn't be back. If he is what he's trying to portray, he'll stick to his WORD and not come back...
Creylish, I am sure Frank can speak for himself. As far as his coming back, I also doubt it, because he was just blowing hot air, he doesn't have the answer to my question. Whenever I ask a Quixtar IBO about this much-vaunted "Educational/Training System", this is what I get ;-)....
Training/Schmaining, nonsense....
Dear reader, judge for yourself. You will see this pattern repeatedly with Quixtar/Amway apologists. Ask a specific, pointed question and they will evade the issue.
Creylish,
I don't mean to beat up on you, but you gave me a good laugh with your "my group is JUST learning to navigate online". When you started throwing out price comparisons, I figured you were not the typical loony IBO. But that one statement completely undermined your credibility. As far as price comparisons go, I already know the answer - AmQuix products are NOT competitive - but I don't want you to say, "oh you never even tried the products, how would you know". You will have my complete report in three months. BUT, just in case, a new prospect is reading this, I will make it simple - In nearly 4 decades, with a nearly 50% attrition rate every year, the consumption of Amway/Quixtar products are still MOSTLY INSIDE the AmQuix Pyramid. What does that tell you about the "Value" of AmQuix products?
BRAD SAID>> It does get tough, rocket/perceptive rewritting over and over agian what you have written for day/weeks and years? IF only peope were as persistant and consistent in the business :lol:
Brad, don't you worry about us. This is a very fun hobby for me. I get to expose cheap shysters. And I genuinely believe this site is informing people about the truth - which, no offense, is simple - QUIXTAR/AMWAY IS A SCAM, PERIOD.
As far as your second statement, "IF only peope were as persistant and consistent in the business :lol:, I don't even know where to begin. People have repeated this ad-nauseum, but Quixtar IBOs don't seem to get it.
Brad, you are clearly an intelligent guy, but.... you keep repeating this non-sensical argument over and over again. All of your posts basically boil down to this - "Unless you have attempted to do this business, and do this business the way it is prescribed by the king-pimps (oops, I meant leaders at the top of the pyramid), i.e. use the much-vaunted "System", you can't pass judgement about this business".
Brad, there is something called "Due Diligence". If I am selling you a business, and I refuse to let you do due diligence, would you buy the business from me? People on here have done the research, and they are speaking from that experience. You don't actually have to become an IBO to figure out that this is just a glorified ponzi-scheme. You can figure that out on the outside. I know this is a tired example, but it bears repeating becuase you can't seem to (or choose to) understand this simple principle - If you stand at the edge of a cliff and plan to jump off, and I tell you that you shouldn't do that, that you will get killed, would you respond with "how would YOU know, you have never jumped off a cliff?"???
Folks, judge for yourself. There can only be two conclusions drawn here. Either Brad is thoroughly brainwashed, or he has a vested interest in keeping the Tools/System-Scam alive, i.e. he is one of the System-King-pins.
And if it is the first, that's a scary picture.... Think about it - even intelligent folks like Brad can fall prey to this... Cult, anyone?
Perceptive, same to you. Your argument boils down to: there is no hope for this business because of the way some kingpins are running things. To me, this is opinion. And i have done due diligence, and if you check my discussions in the forum, i have picked up on some good points and am acting on them now. (as noted, this is more like a frontline of many bullets, the forum is a little more relaxed and seems like a better place to learn)
Note to everyone, in case i didn't mention it before, perceptive DID take the challenge, he cannot be lumped with all those that don't step out from behind an anonymous post. It does set you apart, perceptive.
Anyway, i didn't mean to get involved in this, these IBOs seem to be doing ok, and unfortunately for you, i don't think they are believing your cries to 'save' them. As much as you call that stupid, naive, or brainwashed, it all comes down to: do they see what you are talking about in their immediate organization? (The question of what they are able to see is valid, and i do agree, hiding tool profits is malarky, but it should not be an excuse to not build an honest business)
One thing about consumption of products: Unfortunately, and i have run into this, people do get too carried away in the recruit-recruit-recruit mindset with only minimal attention to retail. The need to adjust that paradigm is there, HOWEVER, i honestly do not place you, perceptive, as the judge and jury as to how that balance should be handled. No offense.
Laterz
Sorry you feel I am "looney". What irks me is that you assume the entire world is as technologically up to speed on things as your sphere of influence is. Like it or not, there are many people out there who do not own a computer, have slow internet access (if it works at all), and I STILL meet people who are afraid of "sending their credit card number online". E-Commerce has passed 10%, so all of this will soon change... As for the products being comsumed mostlly by IBO's, my response is: "Of course it is! They are the ones incentivized!" I do await your three month report, though. Would like to know how you fare...
What is your basis on saying Quixtar is a scam? Maybe you don't realize this, but Quixtar is nothing more than a web portal. I am sure you were aware, but I have to point something out.
Quixtar can't be a scam, not because I belive in the sales and maketing plan, but because the ONLY thing Quixtar has promised to do is supply my business with products, services, give service to all my customers, keep track of the products moved, and pay a commission bonus based of the amount moved. Not once has their check been off or late in five years. Three times I have recieved incorrect product, but they have fixed it with no hassels. They've kept up with their end of the bargain. Where's the scam?
rocket, that's exactly what last week's New York Times article talked about: how easy it was for people to get into real estate, therby creating this huge saturation of agents. The trend for them is less and less income due to this competition. There's only a finite number of listings available at any one time. Moreover, as you pointed out, it is so easy for buyers to search online for houses and the services of an agent are becoming less and less needed, as what happened to travel agents in the last five to ten years. Well good luck to them, in their dying profession. That's their main profession and there's no guarantee of income or success, certainly no more than Quixtar.
Bob, I am still waiting for those ex-WWDB diamonds "speaking from experience." Got any? Why not? Anyone?
Eimmenem,
What is the difference between a WWDB diamond and a BWW diamond or a Yeager Diamond or any other diamond? They all do the same things; sell CDs, tapes, functions, books, etc. They all claim their income is from Quixtar while recent court cases show quite the contrary. Lets start with a current WWDB diamond, Kosage. Look at hs divorce case where as an emerald, he already admits that 1/2 his income is from WWDB (tapes, functions, etc). Those are his words. That was as an emerald. Now, the real tools money is at the diamond and above. Now I would guess that you have been told that WWDB is different. That is what every LOA says. However, they all have basically the same program. Sell tapes, CDs & get people to come to functions. Do you know where Grosvenor is, or Steve Faught or Al Gallo? I thought once you made diamond you were financially free. I don't see their names on the success stories on the WWDB website. And yes they were in WWDB. By the way, I never said WWDB diamonds have said anything. I said, former diamonds.
Big M
Never said it was their main profession. It's a home based business for both of them. It's actual extra money above and beyond their jobs.
They stay as busy as they want to be. They've actually referred them to other people when they've not wanted so much to do, and have had referrrals from other agents when they were too busy.
They have EVERY SINGLE YEAR been in the black. They've taken great trips from that income, and they also use it to provide for their kid's education funds.
Here's the best part - All their training is FREE from their companies. They get their hotels PAID for, theior conferences are PAID FOR, their mileage is PAID FOR.
How 'bout you? No.....:0(
In any event, why are we talking about real businesses? This is the Quixtar Blog.
Hey creylish, where did you get your information that e-commerce has passed 10%. 10% of what? If you are talking total US retail, you are way, waaaaaay off. The total for Fourth Quarter '05 was (drum roll please), a grand 2.6% unadjusted for inflation, and lowered to 2.4% when adjusted for inflation! My source? Check it out for yourself, http://www.census.gov/mrts/www/data/html/05Q4.html.
The next question is, does the online market account for new retail growth, or did the growth in online retail result in a loss for another type of retail. My guess is a little of both. Be interesting to see what percentage traditional mail catalogs are doing these days. Traditionally, they represent about 3% of the retail market. But since most catalogs are now online, I bet the traditional catalog market has shrunk significantly. Of course, online buying still hasn't broken that 3% barrier!
Though, I think online buying will eventually break the 3% barrier. Will it ever reach 5%? Tough to say. For the overwhelming majority, we are still going to go out and buy perishable items (milk, veggies, meat) at a store. Why not go over a few aisles and get cleaning supplies then and there instead of making a seperate online shopping trip and pay higher prices when shipping is included? And if/when we run out and need something right now, we certainly aren't going to wait 2-3 business days for an necessity like toilet paper!
Online shopping isn't the revolution people thought it was 10 years ago. It is simply an evolution in catalog shopping. An improvement, but not the be all/end all people speculated about.
rocket, who am I going to believe, you or the New York Times?
The NYT article explains why that occupation is headed for extinction, describes agents as “unimaginative opportunists who.. .pocket a significant chunk of the sale price of your home.” The Department of Justice has even charged in a recent lawsuit against the National Association of Realtors of acting “like a “cross between a cartel and a mafia.” So much for their great “real” business. Moreover, the pool of agents has grown to more that 75 percent over the last 10 years because entry is cheap and quick, free training, etc. So median income is actually falling according to NAR’s own numbers! I guess your friends cannot depend on it for their sole source of income. I’m not surprised.
So for you Bob, you should never use a Realtor, because look at those lawsuits! The Department of Justice has gotten involved!
What is your point, anyway?
Why don’t you list for me your tools expenses (money actually going to Worldwide) if you’re an IBO or if you’re not one, give me a breakdown of WWDB tools costs. Explain to the world here what the program costs. Don’t include your meals or hotels. That amount varies and doesn’t go to Worldwide.
You can paint broad generalizations BUT: Give me an exact breakdown of the income received by WWDB diamonds today. Break out the tool income if you will. Take three diamonds (at random) and tell me exactly how much their made, Q vs. tool income. And don’t use 10 year old information.
What does the way Grosvenor, Faught, or Gallo have anything to do with the way someone else runs their diamondship or you or me for that matter??
Em, I'd believe the New York Times if I were you.
They don't want this as their sole source of income, Em. They do it on the side. hey make money, and I know this because I see tangible results. Not like your "business"
They sell homes, they get commission from selling homes. They don't get commission by trying to sign up other realtors and sell them tapes and CD's with religious overtones and useless motivation. They don't want to be realtors full time. They use that as a way to get extras. They also don't brag about making a bunch of money either, even though I know they've had a few really good years. WHY? Because they have nothing to gain by bragging about money. Your "leaders" do. (see Profiles Of Success)
Look dude, I'm not here to defend real estate. You are clearly interested in defending Quixtar, and this real estate discussion is extraneous to the topic at hand.
It's obvious you're trying to find something wrong with something else to deflect the negative attention that Amway/Quixtar gets AND deserves.
When you have valid arguments in defense of YOUR "business", come talk then.
I know, I know, it's hard because it's such a ridiculous sham, but I'm sure you'll eventually find something that doesn't get gunned down about your "business"
Oh yeah, I forgot Big M, you said:
"Give me an exact breakdown of the income received by WWDB diamonds today. Break out the tool income if you will. Take three diamonds (at random) and tell me exactly how much their made, Q vs. tool income."
Don't you think it's more in your best interest to know this than Bob?
I'd like to see YOU get that info, since it's YOUR business.
I'll betcha can't find it, or find even 1 diamond to cooperate.
You SHOULD wonder why.
But I'll bet you don't.
You just believe.
Hey rocket, what is your proffesion?
No rocket, you came here to challenge my claim that a Platinum, as a sideline, can have an income comparable to a real estate agent working full time, even at net. As a matter of fact, according to NAR's own figures, a full-time Realtor hardly makes any more than a part-time Platinum. And yet, despite all your broad generalizations and condemnations of my business, I shot your argument down. You and others come along make these generalizations and charges, accusing me of listening to Dexter and religious tapes/cds, etc. etc., etc., none of which I have ever done... and on and on. I get asked about Steve Faught, etc. as if I am guilty of association or something, of why a diamond isn't always qualified? I run my business the way I see fit, and apparently I am doing ok, thank you. After all I have stated before my retention rate is 50-60% after five years. You have no knowledge of my business structure, no exposure to my organization, nor anyone I associate with.
And that's the point, I can come up with equally bad generalizations and find dirt on the real estate profession or lots of other businesses comparable in size and income to a Quixtar Platinumship. I'm not here to make a blog out of the real estate profession. But are all of you going to continue to use them or not?? You know, the Department of Justice IS suing the NAR, not Quixtar.
I'm beginning to think "Bob" is not a real IBO in Worldwide, maybe only another phony posting compilations of the usual material sourced off sites. I'd like to know what he really knows about the business structure, if anything. That's why I asked. And if he knows, fine we can have a discussion about that. But not you rocket, you have absolutely no familiarity with Worldwide.
I was in True North, which IS WWDB
Your business sucks, I have been involved with it, and have stated about a kajillion times why it sucks.
Prices - Motivation
rocket I'll sum it up for you.
Your friends the real estate agents are bilking people out of thousands and thousands of dollars on each home sale.
As you had described, they seem to do very little work.
Services which are worth perhaps a thousand dollars at most. What a scam.
Oh, but that's a "real" business.
You are quick to condemn a Quixtar business, so why don't you condemn the practices of your real estate friends?
Is it ignorance or hypocrisy?
And who was your upline diamond?
I am yet to see one IBO show a return of greater than 4% year-over-year.
Any monkey can walk in off the street and put his money into a Certificate of Deposit and make 4%.
Surely you IBOs can beat a performance like that?
If the IBOs could show a 4% compounded ROI then so much of this arguing could stop. It really is not a trap, JUST SHOW IT
But they cannot do this, so they keep yammering. This says everything for them.
Forget the smokescreens and defensive tones. Just SHOW US THE MONEY
Big M, this is my LAST post about my real estate friends.
1. You are wrong. Where was it ever said they do very little work?
2. My real estate friends are not forcing useless motivation on people in the guise of helping them succeed.
3. Mark Crawford. Who is your upline diamond big M?
For you to say I have no familiarity with WWDB is incorrect. I am more familiar with WWDB than other systems. When I was in WWDB, we thought we were the best too, and all the other lines weren't as good.
Funny, now that I'm armed with more knowledge, I think they are all a load of garbage.
Big M, as plugged in as you are, I think you and most other IBO's would fail fu's 4% challenge.
Anybody else find it odd that Andrea claims to be a teacher, but writes in the typical IBO 'stream-of-consciousness, no paragraph, little cohesiveness', style?
I am left wondering whether she's stretching the truth regarding her profession, or maybe in an effort to prove her upline is right - that education is not valuable, she's decided to stop using hers.
???
Eimmenem,
Would your upline encourage you to stop spending so much time on the internet (bathroom walls of society) as they call it, exposing yourself to all this negative? The court documents speak for themselves; the Brig Hart lawsuit (Google Brig Hart - Amway) & see the $200 million suit involving (not Quxitar products) but TOOLS. Read Kosage's own statement as an emerald. Look at former Diamonds Bo Short, Bruce Anderson & what they say about the true income. And yes, there are more. But if you are not willing to accept the black & white statements of these ones who made it to the top & know, they why would you ever accept my word. I guess I would just encourage you at this point to believe in the dream & show that plan (over and over and over again). Then one day you will either be broke or a diamond. Either way, then you will know the truth.
Creylish> Like it or not, there are many people out there who do not own a computer, have slow internet access (if it works at all), and I STILL meet people who are afraid of "sending their credit card number online".
DI> Then what the hell are these people doing operating an "e-commerce" business? There are plenty of other good business opportunities that do not require extensive computer literacy.
Creylish> As for the products being comsumed mostlly by IBO's, my response is: "Of course it is! They are the ones incentivized!"
DI> Any product whose price is justified by its quality should be able to succeed in the free market. AmQuix products apparently cannot succeed in the free market. Why is that?
Creylish> Maybe you don't realize this, but Quixtar is nothing more than a web portal.
DI> I've heard Quixtar referred to as "nothing more" than: a "web portal"; an ""order consolidation site"; an "e-commerce business"; a "wholesaling business"; and a "product manufacturer", among other things. IBOs, make up your mind!
Ok rocket,
1. You said it... they don't drive anywhere. A simple set-up in their home they easily do part-time.
2. Your friends are bilking tens of thousands of dollars out of people on each home they sell. Sounds like racketeering to me.
Do I honestly care about your friends and what they do? No. I am only pointing out the hypocrisy of condemning one business over another.
3. Sounds like you getting your organizations mixed up ? Crawford and True North is a Yager group. Ron Puryear heads WWDB out of Spokane. So were you in both at different times? Somehow I am downline from Dexter but plugged in with Puryear org.
Bob what do I care about Brig Hart (never met the man) and what the H does that have to do with me?? Do I think Gooch and Storms are crooks? Yeah probably so. What, am I guilty because I have the same type of business? What do I care about Short or anyone else. I don't know him, never met him and don't care. If you care to talk about a wwdb diamond raising a big stink then sure I'll talk about it.
You do not know me, my status or level and therefore, are not qualified to judge me.
Not only are you phony, you are full of yourself in your grandiose commentary. My upline doesn't care if I spend all day reading this drivel. And I have more money that you anyway.
Emmenem,
You last statement is bizarre. "I have more money than you do." Surely you do. I am sure you have you have tons of money. And surely you can prove your statement. Yes, I am certain you can. But you won't. Because that is none of my business. You are very typical. You make an outrageous statement that you have more money than someone you don't even know. You sound just like the rest in your group who do the same thing. Anyway, I think you are getting upset & the truth is that we should be civil. I simply encourage you to stay core. Spring Leadership is coming up, then some rallys, then some seminars, then FED and inbetween all the CDs to help keep teaching you how to present a plan & build the business. I honestly wish you the best.
eminemm> 2. Your friends are bilking tens of thousands of dollars out of people on each home they sell. Sounds like racketeering to me.
You're really getting carried away with the hyperbole. First of all, there's no fraud and dishonesty, or pressure so no racketeering. Everything is fully disclosed. Commission rates are negotiable. Prinicpals don't even have to hire an agent; they can sell the house themselves and advertise on free sites such as craigslist. Your argument is silly. There's no "hypocrisy" in condemning one business over another; where's the logic in that statement? None whatsoever, just like there's no logic in your comparing your wealth to that of someone you don't even know.
M&M&M&M&M,
Give it a rest. Enjoy all your money. I could only wish to have what you have. Most of all enjoy life. Over & out
Bobbb
DI> tell the Department of Justice that. And explain why the NAR shouldn't be sued by them. They have been charged with acting like a cartel and a mafia.
For you "Bob" your statement proves once and for all you weren't for real.
Talk about fraud and dishonesty.
Seems like you can say anything you want. Well guess what, so can I. Let's hear what any of you guy's professions/businesses are and I'll see if I can make blanket condemnations and judgements of them also, like you guys do.
eminemm> tell the Department of Justice that. And explain why the NAR shouldn't be sued by them. They have been charged with acting like a cartel and a mafia.
DI> As far as I can tell, the DOJ lawsuit against the NAR involves the Association allowing some brokers to prevent their listings from being searched online by competing brokers' clients. This is being handled as an anti-trust suit.
In the DOJ's press release, nowhere are the words "cartel" or "mafia" used. Furthermore, nowhere does the suit allege that real estate agents are "bilking tens of thousands of dollars out of people on each home they sell" or that their behavior is akin to "racketeering".
Furthermore, the suit does not pertain to the character of the real estate business and/or agents; it simply addresses a particular aspect of the NAR's policy. Becoming a member of NAR isn't even mandatory and there are real estate brokers that do not become members.
The facts of the suit don't justify your hyperactive imagination or your hyperbolic accusations. Furthermore, the statement that it's "hypocritical" to condemn one business over another is still illogical. Also, I fail to see the logic in your conclusion that Bob's statement "proves" that he's not for real.
Those words I used were used by Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt, authors of Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything.
The NAR has been accused of "hoarding access to home-sale databases and harassing competitors who dared to offer discounted commissions."
If you put a value of the services an agent performs, you come up with an amount drastically less than the commission amount. That, in my opinion, is unethical for the industry as a whole and has cost the unsuspecting public (up until now anyway) thousands and thousands when they go to sell their homes.
I have known of quite a few of agents involved in varying degrees of lying and cheating; for example, bilking people out of thousands of dollars on the value of their land in places like Florida. It's been well documented. I don't like the lot of them and have personally had to go to great lengths to find honest and honorable agents in my own real estate dealings.
The average agent's income has fallen from $52k to $49k from 2002-04. The authors explain the reason is during this boom "the people at the top of the pyramid make a aweful lot more money than those down below." Because the base of the pyramid grows because of the boom. Doesn't even sound like a good comparison to the Quixtar pyramid, huh? And my original point was that a Platinum can make a net income not far off those figures on a part-time, sideline basis vs. an agent's full-time job.
The only thing M&M has gotten right is that Crawford is in the Yager line.
Crawford is not WWDB
Maybe M&M isn't as stupid as he sounds.
That was a little too easy though........
"Bob" didn't want to (or more likely, couldn't) discuss any specific working of business within wwdb, and obviously has no knowledge or experience, other than gleanings off of other sites. Such as making broad-based charges involving Brig Hart, Bo Short, etc. Therefore, I can't take him for being too real in the context of a wwdb-based business.
are you back-pedaling again rocket?
em> If you put a value of the services an agent performs, you come up with an amount drastically less than the commission amount. That, in my opinion, is unethical for the industry as a whole and has cost the unsuspecting public (up until now anyway) thousands and thousands when they go to sell their homes.
DI> The value of those services is not determined by you or me but rather by the marketplace. In fact, due to the saturation in the real estate profession, a client is able to either negotiate for the commission that he wants to pay or find another broker who is willing to work for the commission the client wants to pay. Finally, the client may sell the house on his own, without a real estate agent's services. It's a free market, and the customer has the choice; nothing unethical about it.
The same applies to your comment regarding "bilking." If you think that commission rates are too high, that's your opinion. The market has determined that commission rates range from 2% to 6% of the purchase price. I'm sorry they didn't ask what you thought.
Moreover, many of my friends here in Miami couldn't be happier that the price of their homes tripled over the past five years. If people down here really thought that paying 6% commission while making several hundred thousand dollars on the sale of their real estate wasn't worth it, then we'd be seeing a lot more "for sale by owner" ads down here.
Furthermore, the pyramid comparison is silly. The only similar structure that I can think of is that a broker may have several dozen agents working for him. Certainly not a multi-level pyramid.
And your original point was lost when you started making silly accusations towards a profession that you don't seem to know much about, outside of personal experience.
Wow, I am impressed eminem, I am reading Freakinomics as well! Great book!
I am surprised that Levitt hasn't breached the subject of MLM yet. But then a
Strange, no one has figured out that stacking adversely affects your profitability.
Team of Doom comes to mind.
Posted by: Joecool18 | March 1, 2006 11:10 PM