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March 1, 2006
Orrin Woodward's Team in News
By QBlog in TEAM
The Free Times, "Ohio's premier news, arts and entertainment weekly," has published an article about Orrin Woodward's Team (formerly Team of Destiny) that takes a very critical look at one of Quixtar's most beloved organizations.
The article, written by reporter James Renner, describes several aspects of Woodward's Team. Here are a few selected quotes:
"You will make two to three thousand a month if you put the energy into this system," he says. "It's only going to cost you around $250. The worst that can happen is you get a 25 percent rebate on everything you buy."
Actually, it can get worse...
...Technically, TEAM is not a pyramid scheme, according to federal and state guidelines. Robin Luymes, manager of PR for Quixtar, explains: "A pyramid scheme is based on the exchange of money without products. No money is exchanged in our business until products are purchased. Your income is purely derived from the movement of product."
Still, Woodward admits to having found a loophole to speed things up...
...Cleveland, he says, is on the verge of being taken over by TEAM. "It has exploded here. That's all I can tell you. There were six people in my first meeting, now there are sometimes a hundred. It works because it's so duplicatable."
But that's not really a word.
"Yeah, technically," he replies. "But 'ain't' wasn't a word either. Is now."
Check out the article and be sure to send James Renner an email to let him know what you think of it.
Comments
so much for different systems... sounds exactly like the one i was in...
2 points.
1. Stacking does take away initial profitability, but it also locks people in, and any outside volume, retail or other IBO's, is at a higher PV/BV scale, assuming you are not at the bottom of the stack.
2. Insider says they don't make much money on meetings, like the article says they do. Insider, who is right?
There are some very upset people in Cleveland! My first question is... What is network marketing? Does anyone know? I believe that anyone with a cell phone does "network marketing" when they tell their family or friends to sign up with the same cell phone company that they have so that they can call "In-network" and have their calls be for free. The only probem is you are not getting paid by the company to "market" their plan. There are questions and issues about pyramid schemes. How is isn't fair that the person at the top makes more money. Have you looked at where your checking account is? Who makes the most money there? Funny how the people that are the most critical, are those that do not know very much about what they are being critical about. I encourage you to research what "Network Marketing" is all about, and learn to tell the difference between somthing real or a scheme. There are many pros and cons to every business. Quixtar is not for someone who is happy with their secure job going to work every day, and getting 2-3 weeks of vacation a year, having to work over time or play the stock market to be able to send their children to college. It is for people who want more than that. You can make as little as $6.00 from Quixtar. That $6.00 may have come from a partner store such as "Barnes and Noble" or "Jo Ann Fabrics" I can go to the store and get what I want or I can shop online and get the same thing only with a check attached at the 15th of the month. Most of the time I do not even have to pay for the shipping. You decided, Check or no check. That $6.00 buys my kids tokens at "Chuck E. Cheese" Quixtar is not quick easy money, and if someone has presented that to you in that way I am sorry. It takes time, money, people and effort to build any business! Quixtar helps you to build an online business by supplying the products. You decide how big or small you want that business to be. You decided how much are you willing to help others achieve their goals.You decide whether or not to go to the meetings or purchase the education training tools. Do your research! Don't take someone elses word what Quixtar is all about. Some IBO's are only there for simple kick back from partner stores, some only want to make enough money to quit their Early morning paper route so they can sleep next to their loved ones a little longer. Why is that so bad? It is o.k. to want more and to step outside the comfort zone of our every day life of work. It is o.k. to work everday until you retire. The decision is yours. There is no magical myth to Quixtar, it does work. From six dollars to a million. I have seen it. The next time you go into "Circut city, or buy "Good Year" or "Kelly" tires, or how about those brakes that you just bought at "Advance Auto Parts" Think... CHECK or NO CHECK? That is what it is about. But the way I am not from Orris's team.
Andrea,
I am honestly curious. Will you post your income verses your expenses? My guess is that are like the tens of thousands of others who are losing money. I certainly don't want to offend you. However, I have done the research & it is only after the research that I am critical. So, will you post your income verses expenses?
truly, no offense andrea, but solid question bob! i used to argue the same ideals myself, i just never bothered to consider that i was tens of thousands of dollars in the red over several years. regardless of how pure a persons intentions are, nothin tells the tale like tax returns or an accurate p & l.
I was an IBO for about a year. Yeah, an year is a short time to see any results. But I had to shell out quite a bit, inspite of the distributor discount and at the end of the month I get a check for $6.00!!! Wonderful, isn't it? I spend a little over $500 and I get $6.00 back!
Quixtar only works if u are at the top of the pyramid and believe me, u feel the freedom when u decide to quit. Freedom is a state of mind and nothing, not Quixtar/Amway not anything else can get buy that.
"It is o.k. to want more and to step outside the comfort zone of our every day life of work. It is o.k. to work everday until you retire. The decision is yours." I second that.
Check out the website by Jeff Probst, a former Emerald and you'll get to know the nitty gritty of Quixtar/Amway. For those of you who think its 'negative' to do a background search before jumping the bandwagon, think again, please, for your sake, for u r hard earned money's sake, for your loved ones.......
Andrea,
To reduce your spending decisions to the "cheque or no cheque" question is just dumb. If I overcharged you 100% for regular household products, I could easily afford to give you a bonus cheque for a piece of that extra cash.
Who is your upline diamond? Jody Victor? Scott Micheal? Don Held?
I'd also suggest people learn the difference between a pyramid shape structure and a pyramid scheme. A pyramid shape structure is not illegal. Most companies have a pyramid structure. A pyramid scheme, on the other hand, is where the money flows up only from the people below.
An example of a pyramid scheme is a Ponzi scheme. You pay to play, and only get your money back when enough people below you do the same. A product pyramid scheme is set up exactly like a Ponzi scheme, with the difference between products do change hands. It is only when products are sold to retail cliense (non-participants) the plan becomes legal.
Think about the bank, Andrea. Who are the customers "paying" the bank to store their money there? Are they "retail" customers who do not work at the bank? Or are they only the employees of the bank? If they are just the employees, you got a pyramid scheme.
Thank you for being polite. Bob, ash, and nimblix. I guess I am different than most IBO's. I shop mainly with the partner stores. There are alot of things that I get through them that I normally could get at a regular superstore. I have three kids, 5 and younger that I hate to drag with me! It works for me. I live in the boonies here in Ohio and It takes me 1 hour to get to the closest Barnes and Noble. I am a teacher and enjoy the things that I can get from that store. I do not go to their website because I don't get a small kick back unless it is through Quixtar. I know a lot of people that enjoy XS Energy drinks more than Red Bull and others, and it is the same price. I am not an IBO that is in it for the all mighty FREEDOM. I just want to make a little money back. If it is extra cash for christmas great. I know someone that after the extra mark up price they still made enough money to quit that paper route. You don't have to travel far distances to tell people about Quixtar. I do not go to BDS because my team is not in this State. I do not purchase monthly tools from Legacy. I choose what I want to do. Jim70 I had to buy 8 tires for my two cars in Jan. I bought two at Walmart, and six from Goodyear a partner store through Quixtar. I drove to Good year/ Kelly store which is down the road from me and they put them on. They were the exact same price as Walmart. I did this in Jan. last mon. I recieved a $75.00 Check from Quixtar. Gee that paid for one of those tires. Did I buy anything else. Yes, new bra's from Lady grace another partner store. And sweat pants for my children from Hanes, another partner store. Make-up from Aristry, which by the way is cheaper than what I used to buy Lancome at Kauffmans. Things I have to buy anyway. Things that I have been purchasing for years. I totally agree. If you are an IBO in it to make tons of money you have got it wrong. Only the people at the top of the up-line make that. It is not impossible to get to the top but it takes alot of sacrifice, MONEY, and work. Is it something that you can afford? Probably not. What am I out? Nothing really because I do not purchase items that I do not need. My inital set up? I sold the products that I did not want, and if I do not make my monthly PV to get a check so what. I had to shop for those things anyways. I just did it at home instead of fighting with my two year old at the store because she wanted Dora. That is peace of mind. That is freedom. Smile, life should not be that complicated. Check it all out for yourself. The Good and the Bad. Ash is totally on target there is nothing wrong with doing a negative check. If you don't then shame on you for not checking. That is only common sense. My comments are not to offend anyone, and I am not saying Quixtar is the best, and that there is nothing wrong with it. But I don't think that it is as horriable as some make it out to be. You have to use caution and know what you want and don't want. For some of you it is obviously Quixtar that you don't want. And that is O.K.
Andrea,
Do you retail the products?
Andrea-
If you're only signing up with Quixtar to get a rebate check, why not use something that's free, like eBates? Same principle- shop online, get a percentage back.
www.eBates.com
Pretty passionate speeches for someone only interested in a few bucks.
Try not to blow too much on motivation, I know it ain't free.
Or cheap
Hi Andrea, thank you the very detailed response. You seem to be dictating your own terms in doing this 'business', as it is taught to be called. I hope this works for you.
But the point is, not everyone thinks as you do and get carried away by the riches shown to them and the speakers remind them about their dreams, the horrors of their J.O.B and their present status. If the person shown any signs of backing out, they are subject to emotional blackmailing. They are told that unless they are into the system, so called 'core', they would not succeed. Majority of people are decieved and the 'business' is not portrayed in the same way it is conducted. Information regarding the nitty-gritty of conducting this 'business' is withheld from the newcomer who signs up. Its only along the way, after starting to lose money that one gets to realise how little was told to them about the 'business'. I was not happy when I got a taste of this. Its probably my bitter association with Amway/Quixtar that makes me warn people about this. Its nice to hear varied views about his 'business' but I would never get into it again....ever.
I would very much appreciate your very honest opinion on one point though. I don't mean to offend you, but, do you think the company pays the bonuses??? Think again. There is no money flow from outside and so whatever is inside the pyramid got to be circulating, right? Many from the bottom of the pyramid have to lose for someone to be making money.
This point has been the one that made me withdraw from Amway/Quixtar. Please do not take this personally, Andrea. And I sincerely apologize if you are offended.
Man it sure is crazy that there are people who are so against Quixtar! First of all, as an IBO Quixtar is your supplier. Nothing more. You can choose to buy any of the millions, literally millions of products that they have to offer or you can sell them.Its your CHOICE. So I have a hard time understanding why anyone would be upset with Quixtar.
Ash not to be offensive but
"Think again. There is no money flow from outside and so whatever is inside the pyramid got to be circulating, right? Many from the bottom of the pyramid have to lose for someone to be making money.
This point has been the one that made me withdraw from Amway/Quixtar"
1)Well I hope in that case you do not pay taxes, or hope on using any money from social security to retire. Seeing as how the only money in that pyramid flows from the inside.
Aside from prices, ( Which vary in ANY store you may go to) I have yet to see anything that is actually negative towards QUIXTAR. The only negative comments that have been made, reffer to the particular training system which YOU CHOSE to be a part of. Your experience in the business as bad as it may of been is isolated between you and the upline that you worked with, and is in NO WAY a reflection of Quixtar or even your upline as a whole.
Thanx for your response, Frank.
My point was, that the products, most of them, are overpriced and jim70 said it right, "If I overcharged you 100% for regular household products, I could easily afford to give you a bonus cheque for a piece of that extra cash." This is what I meant by money circulating with in the pyramid.
ash, you said the reason that you withdrew from quixtar was that the person on the bottom was "losing" in order for someone to make money. Allthough I can easily debate the fact that the products are marked up 100%, lets say that that is correct. If the guy at the "top" pays a 100% mark up and the gut at the "bottom" pays a 100% markup as well. Where does this present an opportunity for the guy at the top to benefit?
Motel 6 one night $39.95
Hilton one night $215
What is the difference? Arent they both hotel rooms that you sleep in for one night? You wouldnt walk into the Hilton and say " I cant believe you would mark up these rooms over 100%!" The Hilton has a different marketing plan than Motel 6, so stop comparing Quixtar to Dirt-Mart.Thousands of people gladly and knowingly fork over $7 to $8 dollars for a twelve ounce beer at sporting events all around the country weekend after weekend after weekend, and I have yet to run across one blog that blasts that marketing concept.
Frank, I agree that both people at the "top" and the "bottom" have to pay up the 100% markup but people at the top get fatter bonuses than the ones at the bottom so, don't people at the bottom lose money when they pay the markup and those at the top make money coz of the huge downline group they have? more the number of people in ones downline, more the commission, unless otherwise the IBO is actively retailing the products, no matter what level they are in. Quixtar is a multi-level marketing thing, right?
Also, lets say that the people at the top don't make all that exxagerated money that we are told in the meetings, then, where does the rest of the mark up money go?
Frank: Motel 6 - dirty hotel room
Hilton - nice clean hotel room
SA8 - Laundry detergent, no more or less useful, concentrated, or mechanism than Tide
Consumer reports often places Q products on average to below average.
Why would you pay all the extra money? Convenience stores answer that: Convenience
Is Q really that convenient? No, not only do you pay extra money most of the time, but you also pay a shipping fee, then you have to wait a long while to get your products. Convenience is being able to stop at the place right next to your house and pay extra money fast what you need now.
As for things wrong with Q other than the MO’s, there is quite a list which I will not detail here, but one of the major things they do is that they SUPPORT and ASSIST the MO’s in their KNOWINGLY questionable practices.
Taxes and Social Security are not for profit businessess. They play by a different set of rules. All Quixtar IBO's are supposed to be businessess. And businessess exist for one sole reason, which is to profit.
Andrea, if you are your only customer, is there a chance you will ever profit? The answer, of course, is no. If you grow a downline and each downline is their only customer, will you be able to profit? What about your downline? The answer to the first question is yes, but the second answer is if and only if each downline grows a downline of her/his own that is big enough to turn a profit.
You see, just like in a Ponzi scheme, if there is no money coming in from non-participants, in AmQuix's case, IBO's, then you will either lose money, or make money by recruiting a large downline, who is losing money.
Now come the arguments about, "...but we are selling a product," or, "I like the products and the rebates," or, "It ain't illegal because the FTC or BBB approved the plan." All this is crap. Remember my first paragraph. Ask the IRS why a business exists. It is to profit, and inherintly, a buy from yourself and teach others to do so model is a model where the overwhelming majority can never profit! It is a pyramid scheme.
Andrea, sorry, but you should be a member or client. If you have no desire to profit, but are an IBO and filling out taxes, you are, and sorry to be blunt, defrauding the government. You should not be allowed the tax benefits of owning your own business. Quixtar is not a wholesale membership club (Costco).
Now, for Frank. See the problem with the marketing scheme? Say the rooms at Motel 6 and the Hilton are comprable for this argument. Say, for every person you personally convince to stay at the Hilton over the M6 you get a small cut of their room price. You would attempt to recruit others to pay the inflated price and stay at the Hilton, correct?
Problem is, so would others (competition). Eventually, the Hilton would be sold out (saturation) and while there would be people coming and going every night, would you be able to convince enough people to spend the extra cash to make up the difference in cost between the Hilton and the M6? Maybe, but would your "hotel downline" be able? And what about people who just want to crash for the night and have no desire to recruit others to stay in a hotel? What is their incentive to spend the extra money for a comprable hotel room?
The answer is, they have no incentive, and they all stay at the M6. So do people who have tried the Hilton, see they cannot turn a profit, and eventually go back to their old hotel sleeping habits. Cost is the number one reason why people shop where they do, and while there may always be a niche market for Hilton hotel rooms (Quixtar), by in large, most people who become Hilton (Quixtar) IROs (Independant Room Owners) eventually quit and go back to sleeping in the M6 (Wal-Mart, Target, Costco, K-Mart, grocery stores).
Andrea,
Do you retail the products?
Posted by: Tex at March 6, 2006 04:00 PM
Andrea, you haven't answered this question.
Andrea,
I am glad that you are checking the prices of the products you are purchasing. I have been out for a few years, so maybe these partner stores are a better value than the (non-quixtar) brand name products that were available to me through the personal shoppers catalouge.
When I was prospected, I was told that Amway took all the money that other companies spent on shipping and advertising, and re-routed it to distributors, making products cheaper and also giving people a chance to earn an income. Value for distributors, and value for consumers.
When I did my own price checks, I found that everyday items like Kellogg's cereal were FAR more expensive than I could get at the local supermarket.
I am unwilling to participate in a scheme were strict consumers (as compared to sponsor-ers) don't realize good value.
But you claim that now, (perhaps due to the partner-store model?), strict consumers can get fair value. If that is the case, then may the force be with you and good luck.
I just wish I had asked more questions, instead of giving blind trust to my sponsor ("friend").
jim70,
The partner store prices are either:
1. EXACTLY the prices you would find if you went to that store's web site, and the PV/BV bonus makes them less, and
2. Some stores run specials for IBO's, normally on commonly used merchandise.
However, Andrea needs to answer my question regarding retail. Andrea, do you retail?
Sorry that I have not been able to respond, but the bottom line is this
Retail profit from 3 boxes of double X: $75
Total cost of tools and functions per month: $52
Once a quarter there is a major function, so take the left over profit and save it to pay for that! This is WITHOUT one person in your downline. If you cannot sell three boxes of Double X than maybe you should not have got in business in the first place!
DMM if cost was the driving force behind everything then everyone would shop at Dollar General. The marketing concept is not to save the most money, but to make money from establishing a network of like minded individuals who are tired of giving away hard earned dollars to families and companies that are doing just fine. I do not pay an over-inflated cost or mark-up on my products. Infact I get paid to use the products I buy from Quixtar! If you reach the 2500 or 18% bonus level, then your bonus check is more than the cost of doing(if all you do is) 100pv.
Cost is the number one reason why people shop where they do. The low cost leader is Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is the number one retailer in the world. That lead is so big, that Wal-Mart does in 3 months what the number 2 retailer (Home Depot) does in a year! It cost is why people shop at Wal-Mart, because it certainly is not convenience, cleanliness, or friendlyness of the staff!
As for the like minded people, if you are selling to IBO's only, you are in for trouble. You must sell to those who are non-IBO's (members clients). Otherwise, either you are losing money, or you are making money because you have recruited like minded people, who are losing money.
Say Quixtar products are, in general, 25% more then other retail products. At the bottom level, with zero member/client/retail volume, you get 3% back. Therefore, you are out 22%. You add 6 in your downline (no depth), and while you will recoup some of your money, those 6 are now all out 22% of their money. They can all recruit too, but those at the bottom are always spending more then before! And eventually, with this kind of exponential growth, you will run out of people!
Again, what is the incentive to buy from AmQuix if it is not the rebate/money making ability? The answer is there isn't much, which is why member/client volume is so low. So what you got is the product pyramid scheme described above. Sell to members/clients, lose money, or make money by having a downline losing money.
Personally, I'll let Sam's kids get richer because it ultimately costs me less. And a penny saved is a penny earned.
DMM refer back to my post man. I have not been tought nor do I teach to lose money! I have no problem marketing products to non IBO's. If people in your downline do not make money then they do not stick around for very long. Your job as an upline is to help the people you bring into the business become profitable. If this theory did not work then why is Quixtar the largest MLM out there?
Frank said: I have not been tought nor do I teach to lose money! I have no problem marketing products to non IBO's. If people in your downline do not make money then they do not stick around for very long. Your job as an upline is to help the people you bring into the business become profitable.
TD - This was not my experience. We consistently lost money in our 11 year involvement with Amway/Quixtar. Our upline could have cared less and we were told to stay "plugged in" to the system, regardless of our non-profitability. Whenever we spoke to them about scaling back our spending on 'tools' so that we could become profitable, we were told that it wasn't "duplicatible".
If the theory DID work, why is the average income only $115/month BEFORE expenses?
The relative size of the pyramid, in light of the outrageous attrition rate and overall lack of retail sales, is irrelevant - it's like arguing the legitimacy of the Gambino Family Enterprises because, after all, they're the biggest one out there.
CK, I sense a little resentment towards your former upline. I am sorry that your experience was as bad as it was. However, how many people enroll in the local university where you live as opposed to graduate? This is the reason why the "average" IBO makes $115. People get in, and then get out without doing anything. You could imagine that that would severely bring down the average. As I am sure you have a law degree, you found something the combined legal teams of Circuit City, Barnes & Noble, IBM, and all of the other 300 partner stores who affiliate their name with Quixtar could not find! You should inform them of this major discovery!
Frank,
I'll say it again. I certainly don't want to sound offensive. Yet my question remains the same. Will you, or any other IBO, up to and including any diamond simply post your verifiable Quixtar income versese expenses? Diamonds brag about $250,000 a year in WWDB. Doesn't that make their income public knowledge. Why then will not one of them prove it with their tax returns? I contend the answer is very simple. The vast majority of their income does not come from Quixtar. It comes from the tools you buy and the functions you attend. It would be so easy to prove Quixtar success by simply posting verifiable income. Yet no one will do it. I wonder why.
Bob,
Ill tell you why, they dont need to! Who are you to impress? I am not at the level in which I make money yet from tools but, I have always remained profitable by retailing product. Again,
3 Cases DoubleX RETAIL Profit: $75
One Month OM and SOT: $52
What business do you get into without monthly expenses?
However, from the very beginning it was explained to me that as you excell in your business that you would also recieve system money as well. Never in my mind did I think that if I paid for something that someone was not profiting from it somewhere.Thats pretty much common sense.
Frank,
I am no one special who is worthy to be impressed. However, I think you still miss my point. Do you deliver the products you retail? Or do the folks pick them up from you? Do you spend money on gas & maybe accomidations when you go to a function? The profit you show is $23 per month. How much time do you spend talking to people & trying to increase sales? Twenty three dollars a month before expenses and taxes with no benefits doesn't seem to be profit. For one hour a week at a minimum wage job, you can make more. I contend that as your sales increase, so will you expenses. So, I'll go back to my original question. At $23 per month before expenses and taxes, can you show a verifiable income tax return that shows your profit? I do thank you for your willingness to share.
I am not missing the point. in the Quixtar model when you get a retail customer, you set them up on something called ditto delivery. What that is is basically an automatic order fufillment system. The work I did to get clients 6 months ago has long been completed, however I still recieve the profits month after month. The corporation sends them the products. I recieve a check.Understood? As an employee with employee mentality it is hard to comprehend being paid more than one time for work already accomplished. 40hrs=40hrs then you do the same thing over and over. With residual income I start the beginning of the month where I left off the month previous.I am not willing to post my income information. I dont need to, neither do you.I take your word for your word. I command the same respect.
Frank,
Your response is just like the diamonds who also won't post their income. While they make claims of huge incomes, I know for sure of one diamond whose house was foreclosed on for nonpayment (by the way - after 7 months of not making his house payment, he was on stage teaching about ethical and wise financial management). I also know of an an emerald who claimed to be financially independent. However, his divorce declaration that he wrote told a much different story. Here is my point. Why would you simply trust me as you stated at the end of your last response? You don't even know me. When you put a blind trust in people, you open the door to be taken advantage of. I think Ronald Reagan said it best, "Trust and verify." According to Quixtar data, the average Q-12 platinum only makes about $41,000 per year. Now take out travel expenses, spring leadership, FED, family reunion, open rallys, time spent showing the plan over and over and over again. Now take out social security taxes, federal witholding taxes, etc. How much is left for someone who makes it to the platinum level (less than one half of a percent) or 1 out of 200. Maybe the take home is about $25,000 per year. Now pay for medical insurance, etc. I am sorry. I amy have an employee mentality, but I don't see where the cream of the platinum crop is doing that well. I continue to appreciate our spirited debate.
Bob,
I was using the DoubleX example as just that an example.The point that I am trying to make is that the main argument that I am seeing regarding the system is that you are somehow paying tons of money into the education from the business, and only the "kingpins" are making any money. This is ridiculously false. You can more than pay for your tools with three measley boxes of doubleeX.I am not trying to offend anyone here I really would like to see everyone succeed at something they enjoy. But lets be honest for a second. Thousands of people in Quixtar are extremely successful, thousands are not. What is the difference between the two? It is not luck,chance,good looks, race,who you know or how much money you have coming in. It is simply the work ethic.The people who are more "wide" meaning they "signed up" or sponsored more people personally will receive a bigger performance bonus. Isnt that the way it should be though? I mean it is called a PERFORMANCE bonus! If you work hard at a job, say milking cows for example and were paid hourly. You could milk 1 cow or 1000 cows in fact, you could be the world record holding cow milker and still be paid the same hourly wage. Where(or who) does the benefit of your hard work go to? I know the example is ridiculous but you can apply the example to any line of time for money work.You have no control of what your employer feels that you should be paid. At least Quixtar gives you the ability to profit from your own hard work.
Bob,
Platinums in WWDB do not have to pay for admission to functions.
Taxes are paid on any self-employment income and all business have expenses. Try figuring the expenses on a real estate or insurance business: the phone lines, the yellow pages ads, etc. Quixtar expenses pale by comparison. Plus, this business can still be operated as a sideline in addition to one's regular job, where the health insurance is usually a benefit.
Frank and Emminemm,
Emminemm, You are right. Platinums do not have to pay for functions. Not only that, they also receive a commission off of the price you pay. So do the emeralds & ofcourse the diamonds get the lions share. Here is a good example. FED has 15,000 IBOs in attendance. Each pays $125. That is $1,875,000 paid by low level IBOs who are trying to build a business. The Rose Quarter in Portland costs about $60,000 per day to rent. That is $180,000. Throw in 15,000 meals provided at $15 a piece to those 15,000 IBOs. That is is $225,000. Thus the cost to Worldwide is about $405,000. Let's round that up to $500,000 to cover incidentals. That means low level IBOs pay $1,875,000 to go to FED. It costs the "high pins" $500,000. That means at FED, over $1,000,000 is taken out of the pockets of struggling IBOs & put into the pockets of the kingpins (along with some commission to platinums and above). After, that FED, they go do another one. Cha ching - another million from lower level IBOs to the kingpins. Then it is off to Spring Leadership; then to Dream Night. And ofcourse there are the tapes, books & CDs. I am sorry guys. I've looked at it closely & the way I see it - the money is in the tools & functions. If the $345,000,000 Quixtar paid in bonuses in 2005 only went to the top 10% of IBOs (eliminate the other 90%), each of the top 10% would still only make $174 a week before expenses and taxes. The math tells the story. Finally, I'll ask again. Why isn't there an IBO who will post their verifiable income from Quixtar?
Bob, I really dont know where to go from here. I dont know where you get your math from but if you have access to the Quixtar website take a look at the growth incentive bonuses for the different levels of the business. I guess for someone who only appeals to have a negative view of the subject, you will refuse to give in to logic.Bob, I have no financial gain from writing any of these comments. I have personaly seena few people get in the business and within weeks turn a profit, months pass me up! Simply due to the fact that they did more work.Do you think that all of the higher ups sit around and think of ways to get your money? They will be successful with or without you or me. The question is do you want to be a part of it or not? For your sake I hope that one day you find someone dumb enough to post their "verifiable" income. If they did, what would that prove? Would you join the business under them?Would you say that they made income from ripping people off? Why dont you post your 1040ez form online? What would be the point?
Frank,
You said - Bob, I have no financial gain from writing any of these comments. - Disagree. As the word continues to get out about how much money the "kingpins" get from their tool systems, you will not be able to register folks. The "kingpins" need to come clean or get out.
If this 'business'it is so great how do you explain the high turnover?
College was used as an example of people quitting. I'd bet the turnover (dropout rate) in THIS business is greater than ANY school in the country.
if the products are such great value, why aren't people spending more time selling that recruiting?
sorry, but I too defended the Dateline expose, and had all the same 'tapespeak' as suppporters here.
Those supporters just haven't been 'IN' long enough yet.
Frank,
If I were proclaiming to make $250,000 profit a year in a business; and if I were asking you to trust me; and if I were telling you that if you buy my CDs, books & attend my lectures & seminars; and if I were were telling you that you could have what I have from this business - then YES I would be willing to prove that my income claims are true. When the attouney general of the state of Wisconsin obtained the tax records of ALL Wisconsin Amway Directs - guess what - not one was making a profit from Amway (now Qixtar). Yet, on stage and in public they were all touting their profitibility. There are lots of ways to make money. I simply believe Quixtar is one of the worst. However, I genuinely wish you the best in your pursuit. By the way, I am not ONLY negative minded. I have listened to many CDs with an open mind; I have been to Diamond Seminars with an open mind; I attended FED in Portland with an open mind. It is only after all of this that I realize the big money is not in Quixtar, it is in Quixtar the selling of dreams (showing off hummers & mansions that were bought with the profits from tools) and claiming it is bought with profits from Quixtar. Anyway, I think you ar right. We will likely not come to agreement. I wish you well.
NO ONE WILL EVER SHOW YOU PROOF OF INCOME.
not only won't they show, or tell, YOU WILL BE TRAINED, NOT TO ASK.
You'll see.
It will be "so you don't hurt someone's feelings, in case they have been struggling awile"
WHAT THEY CAN SHOW YOU IS 'AWARD VOLUME'.
That is your Pv-Bv RIGHT FROM Quixtar.
AND SEE IT FOR 3 MONTHS BACK, so no one can transfer or manipulate.
Tex,
First of all once again, the moment I got in this buisiness the tool system and income was explained to me. Any sane person would realize if you are buying something from someone that somebody is profitting off of that. Right? I looked at that and said w"Wow you mean you can make even more money?Awesome."If somebody trains you how to do something, shouldnt they be paid or compensated for that?Or should everything be free?
Secondly,this website or anyother like it or negative people in general have absolutley no impact on anybody I work with. If you are telling people the right information to start with, when they see information like this they laugh!
Willy,
If you are employed, or ever have been. Its common courtesy not to ask people what they make or are getting paid. If someone offers that information well that is different. But try walking around the old J-O-B tommorrow and asking all your superiors how much they are making.
BOb,
I still have never understood why people who criticize the few bad apples in Quixtar or Amway and are in fear of being sold dreams will go tomorrow and put their how familys trust in a J-O-B who will without thinking twice lay you off or reduce your income to please the stock holders.Who by the way probably did not show you proof of their financial statements before you started working there.IF YOU LOOK FOR THE BAD, GUESS WHAT YOU WILL FIND?
Frank,
I am glad they told you. I wasn't told. How much income does the average Emerald, Diamond, etc. make in your system?
FRANK SAID>> I looked at that and said w"Wow you mean you can make even more money?Awesome."If somebody trains you how to do something, shouldnt they be paid or compensated for that?Or should everything be free?
Frank, I don't even know where to begin. First of all, all legitimate sales organisations provide free training to their salesmen. Because they are primarily in the business of selling their products/services to an end-customer. NOT sell training to its own salesmen. A better trained salesman will provide better returns by selling more products and selling it more efficiently. As far as your, "Wow, I get to make more money" comment, you don't have any gaurantees pal. Show me the equivalent of the SA-4400 showing the System-income is split. Thirdly, using the word "training" for the nonsense these "Diamonds" peddle, is a joke. I can pretty much sum up 90% of the CDs in three sentences - "JOB NOT GOOD, NO SECURITY. CONVENTIONAL BUSINESS TOO RISKY. ONE BUSINESS GOOD, AMWAY/QUIXTAR BUSINESS."
Training, my foot!
FRANKS SAID>> Willy, If you are employed, or ever have been. Its common courtesy not to ask people what they make or are getting paid. If someone offers that information well that is different. But try walking around the old J-O-B tommorrow and asking all your superiors how much they are making.
Wow, that's quite a presumption! "Or ever have been employed". Of course not, Willy was never employed in his life, he's just a bum, am I right Willy ;-)? Frank, I know you will find the "Ambot/Quixbot" comment offensive, but I am at a loss here. Every Quixtar/Amway apologist makes this ridiculous, juevnile argument! Consider. I have a Hotel for sale. You are the prospective buyer. I tell you that I am doing $1.85 million in sales, and that I am netting a profit of $200,000 after all expenses, every year. My asking price for the business is $3 Million. But, when you ask to see my books to verify my statement, I tell you that I can't do it because that information is private. What do you do? Just take my word for it and fork over the $3 Mil? If not, why not?
It's a business, you are supposed to do your due diligence! You know, I truly feel sorry for all the Quixtar apologists who are still in and brainwashed, but this has got to take the cake. Who gets into a business without doing due diligence? You deserve to lose your money. Geez! A 10-year old kid could understand this.
FRANK SAID>> Who by the way probably did not show you proof of their financial statements before you started working there.
It's a job, you ninny! You are not buying a business, they have no obligation to reveal their financial information to you! They offer you a job with promise to pay you a certain salaray or hourly pay for the work you are doing. And I can bet you will get paid what you were promised, if not you definitely have legal recourse.
Pathetic! Maybe, trying to convert a Quixbot is indeed a lost cause!
Oh man you are so un-perceptive! If someone is offering free sales training its because they are making way more money off of you than you are. If you work at McDonalds they give you a free uniform. Also, there are several different systems within Quixtar so maybe the Cds you heard said that, but I wont be as un-perceptive enough to think that they all say that.By the way there are NO gaurantees in life pal. You might not be employed next week since you rely on another man to tell you what youre worth.Training: I have learned more in one function than I learned all through my formal education. I suggest you attend your local spring leadership.
Secondly,
It wasnt a put down, you are the one who is presuming. Is there a slight chance that Willy is self-employed? Also to defuse this argument all I have to say is this, THANK GOD it only costs $75 bucks to be an IBO which is refundable for up to a year! NOt anywhere near 3 million. I could teach a 10 year old how to make $75 bucks in a year! Its OK dont worry about me, Im here to talk to the 95%'ers who like you say are getting paid hourly. IS there any limit to the amount of money you can make in the United States? Is there any limit to the amount of time you have? Only 24 hours. So does it make sense to trade something that you have al imited amount of, for something that you could have un-limited amounts of? Maybe your not that perceptive. Whos the Ninny?
FRANK SAID>> I have learned more in one function than I learned all through my formal education. I suggest you attend your local spring leadership.
Pray, tell us, what was this amazing wisdom that you received in on function? Just ONE of the pearls of wisdom that were imparted to you. It could help the other IBOs on here, who are listening to the CDs that I listened to.
FRANK SAID>> It wasnt a put down, you are the one who is presuming. Is there a slight chance that Willy is self-employed?
I know that, Frank, I was just trying to rile you up ;-), got to lighten up the atmosphere here a little. It's almost getting as tense as other lengthy post "Ten thousand to four hundred"....
Frank,
Are you going to answer my question?
Yeah.. my bad on creating tension. The forum is a much better place to bounce around to serious, and not so serious, topics. Keeps things lighter, and thus more valuable for all.
Side note: last i checked, the registration fee follows the 180-day money back guarantee. But thats still pretty darn good. Better than those 4Xmadeeasy, or WizeTrade things... 3 days money back? You cant check things out that fast...
Keep pushing Frank. You can make whatever you want happen, just believe in yourself.
(I will be a great parent one day... You can do it Johnny!! Just Believe!!! , nothing against the name Johnny, but i prolly wont name my kid that... i'd have to think of another name for jokes :-) Laterz
Emminem said:
"Try figuring the expenses on a real estate or insurance business: the phone lines, the yellow pages ads, etc. Quixtar expenses pale by comparison."
Quixtar profits pale by comparison as well. Check and mate Big M.
Frank the think tank,
You are obviously new here, so I'm trying to understand. Sorry dude, you lost me with the
"I have learned more in one function than I learned all through my formal education. I suggest you attend your local spring leadership."
Based on your arguments, I believe you $100%.
I hope you don't blow too much on motivation. That's where the diamonds make all their money you know. Functions, tapes/CDS, books, etc..
Did you know that? Don't you think them telling you that these things are what you need to succeed, but having to buy it from them is a conflict of interest?
Never mind, if you learned more at your first function than from all of your formal education, you probably won't be able to figure this out.
That must have been one hell of a function.
Or else you were really stupid to begin with.
Tex,
sorry I couldnt tell you the "average". MY upline emerald made 180k from quixtar + tools.
Perceptive,
Part of the knowledge I recieved is that you and only you are responsible for where you are in life! If you accept the fact that you are worth only 6.50/hr then thats your choice.
Frank,
I applaud you for sticking up for the Quixtar system. Reading all these comments it seems to me that the majority are being mis-informed. I love being an IBO and I love the products. When I went inactive for a couple of years(out of pure stupidity) I realized how great the concept is. The products are equal or better than the best. And when you decided to treat it as a business it does work. I know a lot of people are too hung up on the slave mentality of a job, but in reality everything you get in life is from what you put into it. As a hairdresser, if I don't attend training and don't keep up w/my tools-which by the way costs- then I am no better than someone who does not know how to cut. W/that type of work everyone seems to think they know what they are doing. That is not always the case, as I had to fix alot of that. So what I am trying to say is you are what you have put into yourself. I have watched my boss struggle to put her business together, after buying the shop, buying materials, stocking on merchandise, passing out flyers, advertising and paying us, and trying to pay all the bills. I do not want to have to go through that. I don't stock and I don't have overhead. I do my business when I want to, unlike working when I have to. I have read a lot of negativity about Quixtar and realize it is like anything, you will always have some bad apples that make the rest of it look bad. Like where I work, for every negative referral you lose 5 or so potential clients and for every good cut you gain 1. It seems that too many have listened to the negative and done too much research on the internet. The internet is not all it is cracked up to be. People like to bring others down w/them and don't want to see them succeed. Alot of the people who are making this happen are out enjoying the fruits of their labor and are not wasting their time online. I know when I am out enjoying life I am not wasting my time on this computer.
And for the people who are losing money-start treating this as a business, not a pasttime. I will be honest in saying when I did that when I started it was b/c I did nothing w/the business and expected to get something for nothing. But that is not how life works. Their is only one thing that is free in life and that is salvation in Jesus Christ, o/s of that ...
Rocket,
I am new here your right. And I wont be here for long either.
" Dont look for the living among the dead"
Cmon man read some of the previous posts to answer some of your own comments.Ever heard of look before you leap?
Do you know how and why the education system was started?
Tex,
sorry I couldnt tell you the "average". MY upline emerald made 180k from quixtar + tools.
Perceptive,
Part of the knowledge I recieved is that you and only you are responsible for where you are in life! If you accept the fact that you are worth only 6.50/hr then thats your choice.
It said, "Tex" at the bottom of that comment. Was that you Tex, or was that you Frank?
IT was Frank
Hey Suz! Hey Frank!
First off, Suz, I feel sorry for you. Seriously. You are exactly the type of person ripe for the picking for Quixtar. You consider a job slavery, yet in the same sentence you say that in reality everything you get in life is from what you put into it. Some people choose to do that with thieir job.
Your boss struggled trying to put a conventional busiess together. The diamond speeches often describe their similar efforts. It's not a cake walk either way.
Your boss, however, does not profit at the expense of many.
You say the internet maybe isn't all its cracked up to be. Perhaps the same can be said for Quixtar.
I am not interested in bringing people down to my level. I'm actually at a pretty high level, so I couldn't care less. You will be at a lower level than you presently are if you stick with Quixtar. I think people need to be informed.
Before you say it, I am informed. Check the archives...I've been here a while now, or my site, or many other sites set up by people who lost more and were in longer than I was. There's many who know more than I about the negatives of Quixtar. You choosing to ignore then doesn't mean they don't exist.
Frankie boy, I don't care why the education was started. I know what it does now.
I probably should apologize for the stupid comment.
I promise I won't call you stupid again, as long as you don't say something that foolish again.
Rocket,
You see in other people what you see in yourself. So, dont apologize to me, I dont need it. It is sad though that you are so angry.It dosnt matter how many people you know that are or were in Quixtar that lost, because I can point you to just as many that are successful. Using your own comment,"You choosing to ignore them doesn't mean they don't exist.."So get over yourself.
Rocket,
You see in other people what you see in yourself. So, dont apologize to me, I dont need it. It is sad though that you are so angry.It dosnt matter how many people you know that are or were in Quixtar that lost, because I can point you to just as many that are successful. Using your own comment,"You choosing to ignore them doesn't mean they don't exist.."So get over yourself.
Rocket,
What company do you work for?
FRANK SAID>> Perceptive,
Part of the knowledge I recieved is that you and only you are responsible for where you are in life!
Seriously, Frank, you needed to go to a function to figure that out? How pathetic is that! Maybe you weren't really paying attention during "all your formal education"....
Come on, let's hear something original - you know, a little bit more profound.... Let me remind you of your original statement - "I have learned more in one function than I learned all through my formal education". Pretty impressive statement - I just want the other IBOs (who are listening to the CDs that I quoted) to benefit from your wisdom. Just ONE of the many profound pearls of wisdom (remember what you said - more than you learned through all your formal education) that you received at that ONE function.
FRANK SAID>> If you accept the fact that you are worth only 6.50/hr then thats your choice.
Frank, how did you assume that I have accepted $6.50/hr? Heck, how do you know I work on an hourly basis, and not on a straight salary? And, is there a possibility that I am self-employed ;-)....?
Look guys we can go back and forth forever. The bottom line is this. You and the people you know are upset because you got a bit of the truth, and found out that you couldnt hack it.Ive been an employee and i am also in Quixtar. I am intelligent enough to know where I am getting the most returns. If you focused even half the effort that you did in trying to ruin peoples lives by turning them away from something that could ultimately help them, then you would have been more than happy with the results. BWW has changed mine and my familys lives forever. For the good. You can continue to work for the next 40 to 50yrs to still be unhappy. Go ahead I will have been unemployed to spend the most valuable asset I have (time) doing the things that really matter in life. Perceptive ,
You obviously still havent figured out that you controll where you are at in life or else you would have been successful in Quixtar right? Again find someone who can get you a ticket to Spring Leadership. If you pay attention instead of trying to disprove everything the speakers are saying, you might catch a couple of "PEARLS OF WISDOM" With this you will not here from me again, I will be to busy EARNING what is naturally mine, my freedom. And I will be looking for people who will not accept the fact that their boss will make their decisions for them at whatever job they are temporarily employed at. Good Luck to all of you, you will need it.
Good luck Frank. I will continue to read and post, however. For there needs to be a voice on Quixtar's side that can say "That isn't on my team." That way, when someone comes here "researching" the business opportunity, they will get both sides.
Frank,
Just answer my question - it's a simple question.
I am trying to help out a poor struggling IBO. Your ONE pearl of wisdom, just might be the ticket.
Isn't this "business" about "people helping people"?
Frank, what makes you think I was ever part of this scam? Could it be that your upline has informed you that those naysayers on the internet are just 'losers' who 'couldn't make it' in the 'business'?
I was never in.
And as to your attempt at condescension regarding 'being a lawyer', you are either a few IQ points short of a gross, or are deliberately obtuse: I was pointing out the flaw in your analogy, claiming the the 'bigness' of a thing proves it's legitimacy.
I chose the mafia for my analogy specifically in light of the Blakey Report (you do know that one of the co-authors of the RICO statutes, after researching AmQuix, determined that the company and it's MO's are similar to the mafia, don't you?), but was simply doing so to point out the fallacy of the 'it's big ergo it's good' philosophy.
One needn't be a lawyer to understand that. But even a lawyer, having fallen under the brainwashing of BWW and it's ilk, might have a little trouble.
I also greatly enjoy the '95% of people are on hourly' comments, because I thought you people were supposed to sponsor UP! I'm not on hourly, neither is my husband, and quite frankly, I don't know that many people who are hourly workers.
Frank,
I am still waiting.
And so is the poor IBO that I am trying to help - he is desperate. Your ONE pearl of wisdom just might be his ticket to salvation.
Please don't let him down.
Perceptive> Frank is gone. Said that he wouldn't be back. If he is what he's trying to portray, he'll stick to his WORD and not come back...
CK> If you were never involved with the Quixtar "scam", would you mind telling me what makes you an expert on the inner workings of my line of sponsorship?
creylish, I don't see any posting by CK that claims s/he's an expert on the inner workings of your line of sponsorship.
To Bob: So I caught you in a lie, you had to admit that Platinums do not pay for functions. Not only that, you also changed your mind three times on whether Platinums make a good income from Quixtar! First you state they pay for all these System tools and expenses, bringing their income down to $25,000. Then you state in your rebuttal to me they don't have System expenses but actually make lots of money off of it!! Then in your response to Frank, you claim Directs make no profit at all! So which is it??
Well so much for the credibility of that critic.
As for you rocket, you can read, but can you comprehend? Quixtar's data shows that a Platinum income is in excess of $40,000. Bob admitted there are no System expenses for Platinums. As I had stated, this is a sideline business in addition to a Platinum's regular job with expenses much less than a comparable small business such as insurance or real estate. A self-employed insurance or real estate agent won't net much more money and will have a much larger time commitment as well.
Nice try.
Best wishes, luck, and happiness to Suz and Frank. I too attempted this blog area as a psuedo "battleground"... it doesnt work. I do think, however, the Forum might be a good place. More interaction, and a little more civil discussions are there. I have actually learned a lot more back and forth in that environment than here.
It does get tough, rocket/perceptive rewritting over and over agian what you have written for day/weeks and years? IF only peope were as persistant and consistent in the business :lol:
http://www.amquix.info/probst/whoiam.htm
Hi all, could you please spare some time to go thro' this website. It will help quixtar and non-quixtar people to understand how quixtar works.
Inspite of this, if anyone would still want to be in this, well, this is a free world. Atleast you would be making a concious choice.
LOL!! Yeah go to the photo album section. Probant says, ".."I am providing the following pictures to help you understand that I do associate with the higher level Amway® distributors..."
Jeff Probant spent about 12 seconds apiece getting his picture taken with Severns, Duncans, Brooks and Bill Hawkins at some function about 15 years ago. Truth is, NONE of them even remember him at the event! Well so much for association!
Emminemm,
I must correct you. You did not catch me in a lie. I said functions are an expense. I am not talking about the cost of a ticket. Let me ask you, "Does the platinum have to pay to get to the function (things like gas for his car; motel room costs, meals. These my friend are function expenses. Or do you think that all of these costs are also covered by the inflated ticket prices paid by the lower level IBOs? Which is it? Many platinums have to either drive or fly to the functions. Who pays for the gas or plane ticket? Every time they drive to show a plan or try to replace the huge number of downline that drops out every year - who pays for the gas, etc? Next, it is well documented that the Wisconsin attorney general DID conclude that the directs in Wisconsin were losing money. Before you decide someone is "caught in a lie", do your research. Just google the terms Amway Wisconsin attorney general. It will get you there. Furthermore, there are more than a few ex-diamonds who did make it to the top & who can speak from experience. They will tell you that 80 plus percent of their income came from tools, not Quixtar. I appreciate your spirited debate.
Well Big M, I guess the platinums shouldn't be paying for the functions since they usually have to work at them.
duh
How many people reach platinum? Not many.
I'd be willing to wager that most at home real estate agents etc would have more clear PROFIT than the average IBO.
Even if they didn't (not likely) at least they're not spending a pile of time on the road showing a joke of a business, consuming overpriced product, and hearing Dexter Yager comparing himself to Jesus.
And they aren't bugging people at bookstores either, dude.
Creylish, I am no expert regarding the 'inner workings' of BWW (I'm assuming that's your line of sponsorship).
DH, however, has been caught in their web of deception since about 1995.
I attended several 'functions' and 'meetings' with him, in an effort to not only support him, but to try to see what he saw.
Among the things I was told or overheard:
a) BWW has less than a 1% divorce rate >
b) There is NO PROFIT in tools. >
c) Fake it til you make it >
d) He was given specific numbers about how many plans he had to show to get X number of distributors (now euphamistically referred to as 'IBO's), clients, etc. He's shown the plan at least a thousand times. He has 6 in his dowline, and perhaps another 6 who got in and got out. When he mentioned that his numbers come nowhere near to the ones claimed, he was told to buy another CD that 'addresses that very issue'...and the CD basically said "I showed the plan a million times, but the 1,000,001 person got in, and look at me now!!!" Very helpful >
e) I attended, at DH's request, a 'beauty seminar' with some of his female downline. Most of the seminar revolved around how high a stack of one billion dollar bills would reach. About 30 minutes actually dealt with the Artistry line and how to market it. Those tickets were $60 each, and included a $12 lunch, a very good value >.
It was very clear to me, within a matter of weeks, that this was a scam to make money off the tools and off of DH purchase of household items at approximately 2.5 times the price we used to pay.
And it works beautifully >.
Let me ask you a question, Frank. How much do you sell a month, on average, to members/clients?
The reason I ask is because if you sell a good volume of product to members/clients, you can be profitable. It is how the business is designed to be run. Problem is, the majority of IBO's do not do a high member/client volume, and most were told that is not the way to run their business!
I was told, "Just buy from yourself and teach others to do so." Unfortunately, this is a sure fire way to either lose money, or make money by recruiting a downline who is losing money. The math is there for those who wish to see it. I was told you do not have to retail or sell. Just recruit.
And selling AmQuix products is difficult. They are higher priced and in my opinion, no better quality then most other brands. That is not saying the products are poor quality, but for me, they are not worth the price. I'd say the majority would agree with me too. At best, there is a small niche market for AmQuix products.
I'm also a bottom line guy. And the bottom line says the average AmQuix distributor makes about $115/month. Yes that is skewed by those that make nothing, but it is also skewed by those that make a lot of money. For every one person who makes $250,000/year, for the average to work out, it means about 181 people are making nothing! Either that is a lot of lazy people, or AmQuix doesn't work as advertised.
In the end, I passed on the AmQuix "opportunity." I did not want to be a part of a product pyramid scheme, and I didn't want to work hard to find the niche of people who I could retail AmQuix products to. Too much work for too little return, in my opinion. To those who have found the niche, congratulations and good luck. For those who are still spinning their wheels and not making any money, make a business plan, set some goals, and re-evaluate after some time to see if AmQuix is really worth it.
No I must correct you Bob, you said: "Now take out travel expenses, spring leadership, FED, family reunion, open rallys, ..."
You clearly listed "expenses" separately from the functions you named, unless you meant to say, "travel expenses of going to spring leadership.... " But I get a feeling you are doing a little more back-pedaling than clarification.
Around here, the major functions are located close-by. Except for maybe one function, the travel/gas expenses are not significant.
I don't know anything about Wisconsin directs, years and years ago (are/were another organization). What does that have anything to do with anyone I am associated with?
As far as ex-diamonds speaking from experience, tell me one WWBD diamond in this role.
I stand by my assertion that Platinum level, even with expenses, generates a good side-line income compared with similar small-businesses. How many make it? As discussed in the forums by Insider, those who are core can, and usually, make it. I have seen it myself, speakers asking auditoriums full of IBOs, who operated at a specific work ethic for a given amount of time, usually were reaching the silver level.
I will challenge you rocket, on your supposed belief that real estate agents make a significantly better income. Read the March 5 issue of the New York Times Magazine for an eye-opener on that. It's not a side-line business and I'll take both of you on about expenses of a business like that, especially miles on a car. Add on office rent, phone lines, yellow page ads, office equipment, help, etc.. go ahead, add it up and come back and tell me what THAT amounts to.
I have not met Dexter Yager, nor ever heard him speak. As far as "bugging" people in bookstores, you're getting confused with someone else, bub.
Big M,
Hang in there, you may convince someone.
"I'll take both of you on about expenses of a business like that, especially miles on a car. Add on office rent, phone lines, yellow page ads, office equipment, help, etc.. go ahead, add it up and come back and tell me what THAT amounts to."
Dude! I thought we were talking about HOME BASED real estate businesses. I know 2 people who run a real estate business from their home. I'm pretty sure they're making more than $100/month. They also deduct for their phone etc. on income tax.
Don't even go there with the miles on the car my friend. The only time that they actually drive anywhere is to show a house.
Wait for it........
They do everything else ONLINE and over the phone!
Wow! It's not even an online entity and it's more efficient than your "business", bub.
Nope, I said small-business with a comparable net income after expenses. So do your friends have all their clients come over to go over paperwork, sign contracts, view listings, etc? They still have to advertise, purchase office/computer equipment, etc. Sounds like a high-class moneymaker if you ask me!
They do have a separate room in their homes for meeting with clients.
GASP! The listings are online!! Clients give what they're looking for, check out the website(s) with interior & exterior photos, then go see what they're interested in.
The 2 folks doing this I know are agents for big corporations. They do no advertising at all. They use their home computer for their business. The corp. provides the software.
I can assure you Big M, they make more than the average IBO.
They also don't have to spend a bunch of money on motivation either. Houses seem to sell themselves.
Later, Skater!
Creylish said>> Perceptive> Frank is gone. Said that he wouldn't be back. If he is what he's trying to portray, he'll stick to his WORD and not come back...
Creylish, I am sure Frank can speak for himself. As far as his coming back, I also doubt it, because he was just blowing hot air, he doesn't have the answer to my question. Whenever I ask a Quixtar IBO about this much-vaunted "Educational/Training System", this is what I get ;-)....
Training/Schmaining, nonsense....
Dear reader, judge for yourself. You will see this pattern repeatedly with Quixtar/Amway apologists. Ask a specific, pointed question and they will evade the issue.
Creylish,
I don't mean to beat up on you, but you gave me a good laugh with your "my group is JUST learning to navigate online". When you started throwing out price comparisons, I figured you were not the typical loony IBO. But that one statement completely undermined your credibility. As far as price comparisons go, I already know the answer - AmQuix products are NOT competitive - but I don't want you to say, "oh you never even tried the products, how would you know". You will have my complete report in three months. BUT, just in case, a new prospect is reading this, I will make it simple - In nearly 4 decades, with a nearly 50% attrition rate every year, the consumption of Amway/Quixtar products are still MOSTLY INSIDE the AmQuix Pyramid. What does that tell you about the "Value" of AmQuix products?
BRAD SAID>> It does get tough, rocket/perceptive rewritting over and over agian what you have written for day/weeks and years? IF only peope were as persistant and consistent in the business :lol:
Brad, don't you worry about us. This is a very fun hobby for me. I get to expose cheap shysters. And I genuinely believe this site is informing people about the truth - which, no offense, is simple - QUIXTAR/AMWAY IS A SCAM, PERIOD.
As far as your second statement, "IF only peope were as persistant and consistent in the business :lol:, I don't even know where to begin. People have repeated this ad-nauseum, but Quixtar IBOs don't seem to get it.
Brad, you are clearly an intelligent guy, but.... you keep repeating this non-sensical argument over and over again. All of your posts basically boil down to this - "Unless you have attempted to do this business, and do this business the way it is prescribed by the king-pimps (oops, I meant leaders at the top of the pyramid), i.e. use the much-vaunted "System", you can't pass judgement about this business".
Brad, there is something called "Due Diligence". If I am selling you a business, and I refuse to let you do due diligence, would you buy the business from me? People on here have done the research, and they are speaking from that experience. You don't actually have to become an IBO to figure out that this is just a glorified ponzi-scheme. You can figure that out on the outside. I know this is a tired example, but it bears repeating becuase you can't seem to (or choose to) understand this simple principle - If you stand at the edge of a cliff and plan to jump off, and I tell you that you shouldn't do that, that you will get killed, would you respond with "how would YOU know, you have never jumped off a cliff?"???
Folks, judge for yourself. There can only be two conclusions drawn here. Either Brad is thoroughly brainwashed, or he has a vested interest in keeping the Tools/System-Scam alive, i.e. he is one of the System-King-pins.
And if it is the first, that's a scary picture.... Think about it - even intelligent folks like Brad can fall prey to this... Cult, anyone?
Perceptive, same to you. Your argument boils down to: there is no hope for this business because of the way some kingpins are running things. To me, this is opinion. And i have done due diligence, and if you check my discussions in the forum, i have picked up on some good points and am acting on them now. (as noted, this is more like a frontline of many bullets, the forum is a little more relaxed and seems like a better place to learn)
Note to everyone, in case i didn't mention it before, perceptive DID take the challenge, he cannot be lumped with all those that don't step out from behind an anonymous post. It does set you apart, perceptive.
Anyway, i didn't mean to get involved in this, these IBOs seem to be doing ok, and unfortunately for you, i don't think they are believing your cries to 'save' them. As much as you call that stupid, naive, or brainwashed, it all comes down to: do they see what you are talking about in their immediate organization? (The question of what they are able to see is valid, and i do agree, hiding tool profits is malarky, but it should not be an excuse to not build an honest business)
One thing about consumption of products: Unfortunately, and i have run into this, people do get too carried away in the recruit-recruit-recruit mindset with only minimal attention to retail. The need to adjust that paradigm is there, HOWEVER, i honestly do not place you, perceptive, as the judge and jury as to how that balance should be handled. No offense.
Laterz
Sorry you feel I am "looney". What irks me is that you assume the entire world is as technologically up to speed on things as your sphere of influence is. Like it or not, there are many people out there who do not own a computer, have slow internet access (if it works at all), and I STILL meet people who are afraid of "sending their credit card number online". E-Commerce has passed 10%, so all of this will soon change... As for the products being comsumed mostlly by IBO's, my response is: "Of course it is! They are the ones incentivized!" I do await your three month report, though. Would like to know how you fare...
What is your basis on saying Quixtar is a scam? Maybe you don't realize this, but Quixtar is nothing more than a web portal. I am sure you were aware, but I have to point something out.
Quixtar can't be a scam, not because I belive in the sales and maketing plan, but because the ONLY thing Quixtar has promised to do is supply my business with products, services, give service to all my customers, keep track of the products moved, and pay a commission bonus based of the amount moved. Not once has their check been off or late in five years. Three times I have recieved incorrect product, but they have fixed it with no hassels. They've kept up with their end of the bargain. Where's the scam?
rocket, that's exactly what last week's New York Times article talked about: how easy it was for people to get into real estate, therby creating this huge saturation of agents. The trend for them is less and less income due to this competition. There's only a finite number of listings available at any one time. Moreover, as you pointed out, it is so easy for buyers to search online for houses and the services of an agent are becoming less and less needed, as what happened to travel agents in the last five to ten years. Well good luck to them, in their dying profession. That's their main profession and there's no guarantee of income or success, certainly no more than Quixtar.
Bob, I am still waiting for those ex-WWDB diamonds "speaking from experience." Got any? Why not? Anyone?
Eimmenem,
What is the difference between a WWDB diamond and a BWW diamond or a Yeager Diamond or any other diamond? They all do the same things; sell CDs, tapes, functions, books, etc. They all claim their income is from Quixtar while recent court cases show quite the contrary. Lets start with a current WWDB diamond, Kosage. Look at hs divorce case where as an emerald, he already admits that 1/2 his income is from WWDB (tapes, functions, etc). Those are his words. That was as an emerald. Now, the real tools money is at the diamond and above. Now I would guess that you have been told that WWDB is different. That is what every LOA says. However, they all have basically the same program. Sell tapes, CDs & get people to come to functions. Do you know where Grosvenor is, or Steve Faught or Al Gallo? I thought once you made diamond you were financially free. I don't see their names on the success stories on the WWDB website. And yes they were in WWDB. By the way, I never said WWDB diamonds have said anything. I said, former diamonds.
Big M
Never said it was their main profession. It's a home based business for both of them. It's actual extra money above and beyond their jobs.
They stay as busy as they want to be. They've actually referred them to other people when they've not wanted so much to do, and have had referrrals from other agents when they were too busy.
They have EVERY SINGLE YEAR been in the black. They've taken great trips from that income, and they also use it to provide for their kid's education funds.
Here's the best part - All their training is FREE from their companies. They get their hotels PAID for, theior conferences are PAID FOR, their mileage is PAID FOR.
How 'bout you? No.....:0(
In any event, why are we talking about real businesses? This is the Quixtar Blog.
Hey creylish, where did you get your information that e-commerce has passed 10%. 10% of what? If you are talking total US retail, you are way, waaaaaay off. The total for Fourth Quarter '05 was (drum roll please), a grand 2.6% unadjusted for inflation, and lowered to 2.4% when adjusted for inflation! My source? Check it out for yourself, http://www.census.gov/mrts/www/data/html/05Q4.html.
The next question is, does the online market account for new retail growth, or did the growth in online retail result in a loss for another type of retail. My guess is a little of both. Be interesting to see what percentage traditional mail catalogs are doing these days. Traditionally, they represent about 3% of the retail market. But since most catalogs are now online, I bet the traditional catalog market has shrunk significantly. Of course, online buying still hasn't broken that 3% barrier!
Though, I think online buying will eventually break the 3% barrier. Will it ever reach 5%? Tough to say. For the overwhelming majority, we are still going to go out and buy perishable items (milk, veggies, meat) at a store. Why not go over a few aisles and get cleaning supplies then and there instead of making a seperate online shopping trip and pay higher prices when shipping is included? And if/when we run out and need something right now, we certainly aren't going to wait 2-3 business days for an necessity like toilet paper!
Online shopping isn't the revolution people thought it was 10 years ago. It is simply an evolution in catalog shopping. An improvement, but not the be all/end all people speculated about.
rocket, who am I going to believe, you or the New York Times?
The NYT article explains why that occupation is headed for extinction, describes agents as “unimaginative opportunists who.. .pocket a significant chunk of the sale price of your home.” The Department of Justice has even charged in a recent lawsuit against the National Association of Realtors of acting “like a “cross between a cartel and a mafia.” So much for their great “real” business. Moreover, the pool of agents has grown to more that 75 percent over the last 10 years because entry is cheap and quick, free training, etc. So median income is actually falling according to NAR’s own numbers! I guess your friends cannot depend on it for their sole source of income. I’m not surprised.
So for you Bob, you should never use a Realtor, because look at those lawsuits! The Department of Justice has gotten involved!
What is your point, anyway?
Why don’t you list for me your tools expenses (money actually going to Worldwide) if you’re an IBO or if you’re not one, give me a breakdown of WWDB tools costs. Explain to the world here what the program costs. Don’t include your meals or hotels. That amount varies and doesn’t go to Worldwide.
You can paint broad generalizations BUT: Give me an exact breakdown of the income received by WWDB diamonds today. Break out the tool income if you will. Take three diamonds (at random) and tell me exactly how much their made, Q vs. tool income. And don’t use 10 year old information.
What does the way Grosvenor, Faught, or Gallo have anything to do with the way someone else runs their diamondship or you or me for that matter??
Em, I'd believe the New York Times if I were you.
They don't want this as their sole source of income, Em. They do it on the side. hey make money, and I know this because I see tangible results. Not like your "business"
They sell homes, they get commission from selling homes. They don't get commission by trying to sign up other realtors and sell them tapes and CD's with religious overtones and useless motivation. They don't want to be realtors full time. They use that as a way to get extras. They also don't brag about making a bunch of money either, even though I know they've had a few really good years. WHY? Because they have nothing to gain by bragging about money. Your "leaders" do. (see Profiles Of Success)
Look dude, I'm not here to defend real estate. You are clearly interested in defending Quixtar, and this real estate discussion is extraneous to the topic at hand.
It's obvious you're trying to find something wrong with something else to deflect the negative attention that Amway/Quixtar gets AND deserves.
When you have valid arguments in defense of YOUR "business", come talk then.
I know, I know, it's hard because it's such a ridiculous sham, but I'm sure you'll eventually find something that doesn't get gunned down about your "business"
Oh yeah, I forgot Big M, you said:
"Give me an exact breakdown of the income received by WWDB diamonds today. Break out the tool income if you will. Take three diamonds (at random) and tell me exactly how much their made, Q vs. tool income."
Don't you think it's more in your best interest to know this than Bob?
I'd like to see YOU get that info, since it's YOUR business.
I'll betcha can't find it, or find even 1 diamond to cooperate.
You SHOULD wonder why.
But I'll bet you don't.
You just believe.
Hey rocket, what is your proffesion?
No rocket, you came here to challenge my claim that a Platinum, as a sideline, can have an income comparable to a real estate agent working full time, even at net. As a matter of fact, according to NAR's own figures, a full-time Realtor hardly makes any more than a part-time Platinum. And yet, despite all your broad generalizations and condemnations of my business, I shot your argument down. You and others come along make these generalizations and charges, accusing me of listening to Dexter and religious tapes/cds, etc. etc., etc., none of which I have ever done... and on and on. I get asked about Steve Faught, etc. as if I am guilty of association or something, of why a diamond isn't always qualified? I run my business the way I see fit, and apparently I am doing ok, thank you. After all I have stated before my retention rate is 50-60% after five years. You have no knowledge of my business structure, no exposure to my organization, nor anyone I associate with.
And that's the point, I can come up with equally bad generalizations and find dirt on the real estate profession or lots of other businesses comparable in size and income to a Quixtar Platinumship. I'm not here to make a blog out of the real estate profession. But are all of you going to continue to use them or not?? You know, the Department of Justice IS suing the NAR, not Quixtar.
I'm beginning to think "Bob" is not a real IBO in Worldwide, maybe only another phony posting compilations of the usual material sourced off sites. I'd like to know what he really knows about the business structure, if anything. That's why I asked. And if he knows, fine we can have a discussion about that. But not you rocket, you have absolutely no familiarity with Worldwide.
I was in True North, which IS WWDB
Your business sucks, I have been involved with it, and have stated about a kajillion times why it sucks.
Prices - Motivation
rocket I'll sum it up for you.
Your friends the real estate agents are bilking people out of thousands and thousands of dollars on each home sale.
As you had described, they seem to do very little work.
Services which are worth perhaps a thousand dollars at most. What a scam.
Oh, but that's a "real" business.
You are quick to condemn a Quixtar business, so why don't you condemn the practices of your real estate friends?
Is it ignorance or hypocrisy?
And who was your upline diamond?
I am yet to see one IBO show a return of greater than 4% year-over-year.
Any monkey can walk in off the street and put his money into a Certificate of Deposit and make 4%.
Surely you IBOs can beat a performance like that?
If the IBOs could show a 4% compounded ROI then so much of this arguing could stop. It really is not a trap, JUST SHOW IT
But they cannot do this, so they keep yammering. This says everything for them.
Forget the smokescreens and defensive tones. Just SHOW US THE MONEY
Big M, this is my LAST post about my real estate friends.
1. You are wrong. Where was it ever said they do very little work?
2. My real estate friends are not forcing useless motivation on people in the guise of helping them succeed.
3. Mark Crawford. Who is your upline diamond big M?
For you to say I have no familiarity with WWDB is incorrect. I am more familiar with WWDB than other systems. When I was in WWDB, we thought we were the best too, and all the other lines weren't as good.
Funny, now that I'm armed with more knowledge, I think they are all a load of garbage.
Big M, as plugged in as you are, I think you and most other IBO's would fail fu's 4% challenge.
Anybody else find it odd that Andrea claims to be a teacher, but writes in the typical IBO 'stream-of-consciousness, no paragraph, little cohesiveness', style?
I am left wondering whether she's stretching the truth regarding her profession, or maybe in an effort to prove her upline is right - that education is not valuable, she's decided to stop using hers.
???
Eimmenem,
Would your upline encourage you to stop spending so much time on the internet (bathroom walls of society) as they call it, exposing yourself to all this negative? The court documents speak for themselves; the Brig Hart lawsuit (Google Brig Hart - Amway) & see the $200 million suit involving (not Quxitar products) but TOOLS. Read Kosage's own statement as an emerald. Look at former Diamonds Bo Short, Bruce Anderson & what they say about the true income. And yes, there are more. But if you are not willing to accept the black & white statements of these ones who made it to the top & know, they why would you ever accept my word. I guess I would just encourage you at this point to believe in the dream & show that plan (over and over and over again). Then one day you will either be broke or a diamond. Either way, then you will know the truth.
Creylish> Like it or not, there are many people out there who do not own a computer, have slow internet access (if it works at all), and I STILL meet people who are afraid of "sending their credit card number online".
DI> Then what the hell are these people doing operating an "e-commerce" business? There are plenty of other good business opportunities that do not require extensive computer literacy.
Creylish> As for the products being comsumed mostlly by IBO's, my response is: "Of course it is! They are the ones incentivized!"
DI> Any product whose price is justified by its quality should be able to succeed in the free market. AmQuix products apparently cannot succeed in the free market. Why is that?
Creylish> Maybe you don't realize this, but Quixtar is nothing more than a web portal.
DI> I've heard Quixtar referred to as "nothing more" than: a "web portal"; an ""order consolidation site"; an "e-commerce business"; a "wholesaling business"; and a "product manufacturer", among other things. IBOs, make up your mind!
Ok rocket,
1. You said it... they don't drive anywhere. A simple set-up in their home they easily do part-time.
2. Your friends are bilking tens of thousands of dollars out of people on each home they sell. Sounds like racketeering to me.
Do I honestly care about your friends and what they do? No. I am only pointing out the hypocrisy of condemning one business over another.
3. Sounds like you getting your organizations mixed up ? Crawford and True North is a Yager group. Ron Puryear heads WWDB out of Spokane. So were you in both at different times? Somehow I am downline from Dexter but plugged in with Puryear org.
Bob what do I care about Brig Hart (never met the man) and what the H does that have to do with me?? Do I think Gooch and Storms are crooks? Yeah probably so. What, am I guilty because I have the same type of business? What do I care about Short or anyone else. I don't know him, never met him and don't care. If you care to talk about a wwdb diamond raising a big stink then sure I'll talk about it.
You do not know me, my status or level and therefore, are not qualified to judge me.
Not only are you phony, you are full of yourself in your grandiose commentary. My upline doesn't care if I spend all day reading this drivel. And I have more money that you anyway.
Emmenem,
You last statement is bizarre. "I have more money than you do." Surely you do. I am sure you have you have tons of money. And surely you can prove your statement. Yes, I am certain you can. But you won't. Because that is none of my business. You are very typical. You make an outrageous statement that you have more money than someone you don't even know. You sound just like the rest in your group who do the same thing. Anyway, I think you are getting upset & the truth is that we should be civil. I simply encourage you to stay core. Spring Leadership is coming up, then some rallys, then some seminars, then FED and inbetween all the CDs to help keep teaching you how to present a plan & build the business. I honestly wish you the best.
eminemm> 2. Your friends are bilking tens of thousands of dollars out of people on each home they sell. Sounds like racketeering to me.
You're really getting carried away with the hyperbole. First of all, there's no fraud and dishonesty, or pressure so no racketeering. Everything is fully disclosed. Commission rates are negotiable. Prinicpals don't even have to hire an agent; they can sell the house themselves and advertise on free sites such as craigslist. Your argument is silly. There's no "hypocrisy" in condemning one business over another; where's the logic in that statement? None whatsoever, just like there's no logic in your comparing your wealth to that of someone you don't even know.
M&M&M&M&M,
Give it a rest. Enjoy all your money. I could only wish to have what you have. Most of all enjoy life. Over & out
Bobbb
DI> tell the Department of Justice that. And explain why the NAR shouldn't be sued by them. They have been charged with acting like a cartel and a mafia.
For you "Bob" your statement proves once and for all you weren't for real.
Talk about fraud and dishonesty.
Seems like you can say anything you want. Well guess what, so can I. Let's hear what any of you guy's professions/businesses are and I'll see if I can make blanket condemnations and judgements of them also, like you guys do.
eminemm> tell the Department of Justice that. And explain why the NAR shouldn't be sued by them. They have been charged with acting like a cartel and a mafia.
DI> As far as I can tell, the DOJ lawsuit against the NAR involves the Association allowing some brokers to prevent their listings from being searched online by competing brokers' clients. This is being handled as an anti-trust suit.
In the DOJ's press release, nowhere are the words "cartel" or "mafia" used. Furthermore, nowhere does the suit allege that real estate agents are "bilking tens of thousands of dollars out of people on each home they sell" or that their behavior is akin to "racketeering".
Furthermore, the suit does not pertain to the character of the real estate business and/or agents; it simply addresses a particular aspect of the NAR's policy. Becoming a member of NAR isn't even mandatory and there are real estate brokers that do not become members.
The facts of the suit don't justify your hyperactive imagination or your hyperbolic accusations. Furthermore, the statement that it's "hypocritical" to condemn one business over another is still illogical. Also, I fail to see the logic in your conclusion that Bob's statement "proves" that he's not for real.
Those words I used were used by Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt, authors of Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything.
The NAR has been accused of "hoarding access to home-sale databases and harassing competitors who dared to offer discounted commissions."
If you put a value of the services an agent performs, you come up with an amount drastically less than the commission amount. That, in my opinion, is unethical for the industry as a whole and has cost the unsuspecting public (up until now anyway) thousands and thousands when they go to sell their homes.
I have known of quite a few of agents involved in varying degrees of lying and cheating; for example, bilking people out of thousands of dollars on the value of their land in places like Florida. It's been well documented. I don't like the lot of them and have personally had to go to great lengths to find honest and honorable agents in my own real estate dealings.
The average agent's income has fallen from $52k to $49k from 2002-04. The authors explain the reason is during this boom "the people at the top of the pyramid make a aweful lot more money than those down below." Because the base of the pyramid grows because of the boom. Doesn't even sound like a good comparison to the Quixtar pyramid, huh? And my original point was that a Platinum can make a net income not far off those figures on a part-time, sideline basis vs. an agent's full-time job.
The only thing M&M has gotten right is that Crawford is in the Yager line.
Crawford is not WWDB
Maybe M&M isn't as stupid as he sounds.
That was a little too easy though........
"Bob" didn't want to (or more likely, couldn't) discuss any specific working of business within wwdb, and obviously has no knowledge or experience, other than gleanings off of other sites. Such as making broad-based charges involving Brig Hart, Bo Short, etc. Therefore, I can't take him for being too real in the context of a wwdb-based business.
are you back-pedaling again rocket?
em> If you put a value of the services an agent performs, you come up with an amount drastically less than the commission amount. That, in my opinion, is unethical for the industry as a whole and has cost the unsuspecting public (up until now anyway) thousands and thousands when they go to sell their homes.
DI> The value of those services is not determined by you or me but rather by the marketplace. In fact, due to the saturation in the real estate profession, a client is able to either negotiate for the commission that he wants to pay or find another broker who is willing to work for the commission the client wants to pay. Finally, the client may sell the house on his own, without a real estate agent's services. It's a free market, and the customer has the choice; nothing unethical about it.
The same applies to your comment regarding "bilking." If you think that commission rates are too high, that's your opinion. The market has determined that commission rates range from 2% to 6% of the purchase price. I'm sorry they didn't ask what you thought.
Moreover, many of my friends here in Miami couldn't be happier that the price of their homes tripled over the past five years. If people down here really thought that paying 6% commission while making several hundred thousand dollars on the sale of their real estate wasn't worth it, then we'd be seeing a lot more "for sale by owner" ads down here.
Furthermore, the pyramid comparison is silly. The only similar structure that I can think of is that a broker may have several dozen agents working for him. Certainly not a multi-level pyramid.
And your original point was lost when you started making silly accusations towards a profession that you don't seem to know much about, outside of personal experience.
Wow, I am impressed eminem, I am reading Freakinomics as well! Great book!
I am surprised that Levitt hasn't breached the subject of MLM yet. But then again, I am only 1/2 way done with the book, maybe he does and I just dont know it yet.
But you seem like a pretty educated guy. Tell me if you are interested in taking the 4% challenge. Surely you stand by your business and are willing to take the test!
DI> Any product whose price is justified by its quality should be able to succeed in the free market. AmQuix products apparently cannot succeed in the free market. Why is that?
Q*>According to Internet Retailer, Quixtar placed #1 in health and beauty sales 2004 controlling 49% of the market.( Dont have#'s for 05 yet.)
DI> And your original point was lost when you started making silly accusations towards a profession that you don't seem to know much about, outside of personal experience.
DI>Furthermore, the pyramid comparison is silly. The only similar structure that I can think of is that a broker may have several dozen agents working for him. Certainly not a multi-level pyramid.
Q* Do you make more money than your boss?
Q*Proud - Do you make more than minimum wage in your business?
Or just crowing about great "tax - advantages"?
Both! Free of Q
Q*>According to Internet Retailer, Quixtar placed #1 in health and beauty sales 2004 controlling 49% of the market.( Dont have#'s for 05 yet.)
DI> How much of those sales were the result of IBOs buying product for themselves, and how much was the result of sales to outside clients?
Products that can compete in the free market don't need a dedicated distributor/consumer force to buy them. They are competitive on their own merits. A/Q products may not be.
Q*> Do you make more money than your boss?
DI> I don't have a boss! ;)
DI> How much of those sales were the result of IBOs buying product for themselves, and how much was the result of sales to outside clients?
Products that can compete in the free market don't need a dedicated distributor/consumer force to buy them. They are competitive on their own merits. A/Q products may not be.
Q*>You mean to tell me that 49% of the total market online for health and beauty products is Quixtar distributors? Wow we must be growing! Whoever reads this that means nearly 50 cents of EVERY SINGLE dollar spent online for health and beauty products was through QUIXTAR.
DI> I don't have a boss! ;)
Q*>Im glad to see that. Thats at least one thing you agree with in the plan.
DI what profession are you in?
Q*>You mean to tell me that 49% of the total market online for health and beauty products is Quixtar distributors? Wow we must be growing! Whoever reads this that means nearly 50 cents of EVERY SINGLE dollar spent online for health and beauty products was through QUIXTAR.
DI> Well, let's see. Regular online consumers can't buy products from Quixtar's site because it is password-protected. It is well-documented that IBOs are taught to consume products from their own business and eschew "negative" products made by other manufacturers. Add to that the fact that beauty products are something that people prefer to buy in brick-and-mortar stores due to the fact that most prefer to try on makeup and similar products before purchase.
So, you show me that the majority of Quixtar's products aren't bought by IBOs. How many are bought by IBOs? How many are bought by members and clients? I'd really like to know.
As I've said before, if Qx could truly succeed in the free market, you'd be getting your XS and SA8 at the supermarket, not through an inconvenient, inefficient system of personal contacts.
Wrong again DI!
DI> Well, let's see. Regular online consumers can't buy products from Quixtar's site because it is password-protected.
Q*> Funny, my clients have their own password.
DI> It is well-documented that IBOs are taught to consume products from their own business and eschew "negative" products made by other manufacturers.
Q*>You said it best! Use products from your own business.
If you owned a Exxon gas station, where would you get your gas?
DI> Add to that the fact that beauty products are something that people prefer to buy in brick-and-mortar stores due to the fact that most prefer to try on makeup and similar products before purchase.
Q*> Do you stand in the aisles and try on your deoderant?
How about toilet paper? Do you pop open the bottles of vitamins and try those first? Actually, if you think about it What do you try out first? Very few things at all.
DI>So, you show me that the majority of Quixtar's products aren't bought by IBOs. How many are bought by IBOs? How many are bought by members and clients? I'd really like to know.
Q*> Congratulations! This would be the closest you come to having a point. I would agree that most products are bought by IBO's. Customers dont last long when they realize they could be making money!
DI>As I've said before, if Qx could truly succeed in the free market, you'd be getting your XS and SA8 at the supermarket, not through an inconvenient, inefficient system of personal contacts.
Q*> I wonder how many times youve been foolish enough to say that before. Q* has wonderful success. Again, without being on any retail shelf Q* is the 14th largest retail internet website. And controlls 49% (#1)of the market in health and beauty sales! Sorry DI. Keep trying, if you keep poking at it you might actually make a valid point. Please try not to waste to much of my time though.Plus people see through all your BS. Thanks for the laugh.
DI> Then what the hell are these people doing operating an "e-commerce" business? There are plenty of other good business opportunities that do not require extensive computer literacy.
Creylish> They see the potential, believe that online shopping will be big, and are actively learning.
DI> Any product whose price is justified by its quality should be able to succeed in the free market. AmQuix products apparently cannot succeed in the free market. Why is that?
Creylish> They seem to be doing fine in my business. I can't keep product in stock, because of how many people around here want it!
DI> I've heard Quixtar referred to as "nothing more" than: a "web portal"; an ""order consolidation site"; an "e-commerce business"; a "wholesaling business"; and a "product manufacturer", among other things. IBOs, make up your mind!
Creylish> My contract with them is simply that they supply my business with goods and pay a commission check. What I have seen, is that Access Business Group manufactures the old Amway products, and the other partnered companies allow their products on the Quixtar site as well. And why can't being a web-portal be an order consolidation site, e-commerce business, and wholesaling business? All the web portal is for is to move products from manufacturers to end users. Sounds to me like they may need to be able to consolidate orders, and being a for profit company online automatically makes it "e-commerce"...
Q*> Funny, my clients have their own password.
DI> That's my whole point. You can't get clients that you haven't talked to because the site is password-protected. Only clients are those whom you've met personally. So, how many of those are IBOs and how many just buy Quixtar because they like the products?
Q*>You said it best! Use products from your own business.
If you owned a Exxon gas station, where would you get your gas?
DI> First of all, your comparison doesn't prove anything. Gas stations make a profit of about 3 cents on the dollar when selling gas. In my city, Miami, gas prices (for premium) range from about $2.40 to $2.80, depending on the location and brand of the gas station, among other things. Therefore, if my Exxon gas station was charging $2.60 per gallon of premium, my price as the owner would be $2.57. Meanwhile, Costco charges $2.40 per gallon. I'm going to Costco!
Second of all, you're proving my point. IBOs are taught to consume products from their own business, thereby creating a large consumer base for Quixtar. That doesn't prove that Qx is competitive in the open market; on the other hand, it shows that it gets most of its profits from self-consumption by IBOs. You've proven my point!
Q*> Do you stand in the aisles and try on your deoderant?
How about toilet paper? Do you pop open the bottles of vitamins and try those first? Actually, if you think about it What do you try out first? Very few things at all.
DI> Obviously, I was referring to such products as women's makeup. But you still haven't proven that Quixtar's products are competitive. Keep trying.
Q*> Congratulations! This would be the closest you come to having a point. I would agree that most products are bought by IBO's. Customers dont last long when they realize they could be making money!
DI> Congratulations! Thanks for proving my point that Quixtar products are bought by IBOs! This just strengthens my argument that their products are not competitive in the free market. Only IBOs pay the high prices that Quixtar demands; anyone who is interested simply in the product and not the business does not want to pay the premium. There is little to no demand for Quixtar products outside the IBO community.
Q*> I wonder how many times youve been foolish enough to say that before. Q* has wonderful success. Again, without being on any retail shelf Q* is the 14th largest retail internet website. And controlls 49% (#1)of the market in health and beauty sales!
DI> And you've still failed to prove that a significant number of those purchases come from outside the IBO force. If only IBOs are buying the product, it just shows that Quixtar can't compete in the free market.
Show me that most of Quixtar's purchases online are from clients or members. Then you'll have a case.
Q*> Sorry DI. Keep trying, if you keep poking at it you might actually make a valid point. Please try not to waste to much of my time though.Plus people see through all your BS. Thanks for the laugh.
DI> Hey, that's a good one. You can't prove me wrong, so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Way to go buddy! If what I was saying was truly BS, then you'd have no problem proving me wrong. But you can't!
Creylish> They see the potential, believe that online shopping will be big, and are actively learning.
DI> So they're going into a business which they seem to know very little about, based simply on a "belief" that good things will happen? That is quite possibly the worst way to make a business decision.
Creylish> They seem to be doing fine in my business. I can't keep product in stock, because of how many people around here want it!
DI> How many of these people are other IBOs and how many are people that have no interest whatsoever in developing a Qx business?
Creylish> My contract with them is simply that they supply my business with goods and pay a commission check. What I have seen, is that Access Business Group manufactures the old Amway products, and the other partnered companies allow their products on the Quixtar site as well. And why can't being a web-portal be an order consolidation site, e-commerce business, and wholesaling business? All the web portal is for is to move products from manufacturers to end users. Sounds to me like they may need to be able to consolidate orders, and being a for profit company online automatically makes it "e-commerce"...
DI> The issue here is the deceptive methods that IBOs use to describe Quixtar, especially when recruiting. There are a dozen different euphemisms for what Quixtar does, and none of them paints a complete and truthful picture of the business. Describing Quixtar as "nothing more" than wholesaling, e-commerce, order consolidation, etc. leaves out a great deal of other aspects of the business, namely, it's multi-level structure. In other words, saying that the business is "nothing more" than only one of its aspects is not the whole truth. Ergo, it is deceptive.
DI>Therefore, if my Exxon gas station was charging $2.60 per gallon of premium, my price as the owner would be $2.57. Meanwhile, Costco charges $2.40 per gallon.
I caught one little math error on my part. It's 3 cents profit on the dollar, not on the gallon. Therefore, my price as the owner of the Exxon station would be about $2.52 per gallon. Nevertheless, I'm still going to Costco!
First off you still have not answered as to what you do as a proffesion.........
DI> That's my whole point. You can't get clients that you haven't talked to because the site is password-protected. Only clients are those whom you've met personally. So, how many of those are IBOs and how many just buy Quixtar because they like the products?
Q*>This is exactly the BS that I am referring to.Go to quixtar.com and click on find products you will be able to see the products, and then register as a client, and then buy them! Wrong again.
Waste of time: 1 min
DI> First of all, your comparison doesn't prove anything. Gas stations make a profit of about 3 cents on the dollar when selling gas. In my city, Miami, gas prices (for premium) range from about $2.40 to $2.80, depending on the location and brand of the gas station, among other things. Therefore, if my Exxon gas station was charging $2.60 per gallon of premium, my price as the owner would be $2.57. Meanwhile, Costco charges $2.40 per gallon. I'm going to Costco!
Second of all, you're proving my point. IBOs are taught to consume products from their own business, thereby creating a large consumer base for Quixtar. That doesn't prove that Qx is competitive in the open market; on the other hand, it shows that it gets most of its profits from self-consumption by IBOs. You've proven my point!
Q*>Thus proving why the business did not work for you.
Business school 101: Be your own best customer.
DI forgive me if Im wrong but every IBO has the CHOICE to buy products wherever they want. The ability to buy products from any source you choose would constitute in my calculations a "FREE MARKET".So if Q* again is #1 then all of the IBOS or clients or members had a choice to buy or not to buy.Wrong again.
Wate of time: 1min
DI> Obviously, I was referring to such products as women's makeup. But you still haven't proven that Quixtar's products are competitive. Keep trying.
Q*> Well then say that.
#1 dude, HELLO is that not competitive.In your industry what place are you?
Wate of time: 1min
Q*> The next few points can be summed up by saying that you are not making any sense. To be #1 inH&B and #14 over all other websites, pretty much speaks for itself! Im sorry that your extensive training in business analysis has failed to provide you with enough common sense to realize the facts.
waste of time:1min
DI> Hey, that's a good one. You can't prove me wrong, so you resort to ad hominem attacks. Way to go buddy! If what I was saying was truly BS, then you'd have no problem proving me wrong. But you can't!
Q*> You still have yet to prove one point.C'mon man dont let the fact that you failed in the business, keep you from accepting statistics. once again #1 is that hard for you to understand. If you were me and you had to keep stating the same statistics over and over from reputable sources, not Don Incognito on the internet. would you not question my intelligence?
waste of time: 2 min( had to edit some)
Total waste of time 6min
WHAT IS YOUR PROFFESION?
Q*>First off you still have not answered as to what you do as a proffesion.........
DI> Because it's irrelevant to the points I'm trying to make here. You're simply trying to change the subject but you can't prove me wrong.
Q*>This is exactly the BS that I am referring to.Go to quixtar.com and click on find products you will be able to see the products, and then register as a client, and then buy them! Wrong again.
Waste of time: 1 min
DI> You left out one important part. You need an IBO number to register. Let's say I'm a customer who doesn't know any IBOs; therefore, I can't register. As I've said before, Quixtar customers need to have personal contacts with IBOs in order to buy the products. I can't just "wander in" as I can with, say, Amazon and buy something. I'm right, you're wrong.
Q*>Thus proving why the business did not work for you.
Business school 101: Be your own best customer.
DI> What business school teaches that? What I've stated above re:gas stations makes perfect economic sense. The only reason you can't see it is because of your system indoctrination. The bottom line is profit.
Q*>DI forgive me if Im wrong but every IBO has the CHOICE to buy products wherever they want. The ability to buy products from any source you choose would constitute in my calculations a "FREE MARKET".
DI> The free market I am referring to is the entire American market, not solely the one consisting of IBOs. IBOs buy from Quixtar because they are conditioned to believe that it is beneficial for them, despite the higher prices and shipping costs. However, hardly anyone else buys from Quixtar.
Q*>So if Q* again is #1 then all of the IBOS or clients or members had a choice to buy or not to buy.Wrong again.
Wate of time: 1min
DI> As I've said before, Quixtar being #1 is irrelevant if most of that sales volume is the result of IBOs "buying from themselves." The relevant number here would be how many [i]disinterested parties[/i] decided to buy from Quixtar. You still haven't shown me that that is a significant number. Therefore, Quixtar's sales ranking has nothing to do with it succeeding in a free marketplace.
Q*> Well then say that.
#1 dude, HELLO is that not competitive.In your industry what place are you?
Wate of time: 1min
DI> As I've said before, it's not if all the purchases are made by IBOs.
Q*> The next few points can be summed up by saying that you are not making any sense. To be #1 inH&B and #14 over all other websites, pretty much speaks for itself! Im sorry that your extensive training in business analysis has failed to provide you with enough common sense to realize the facts.
waste of time:1min
DI> Your failure to understand what I'm saying does not equate to me not making sense. I will say this for the umpteenth time: Show me that Quixtar's high ranking is due to non-IBOs buying their products. Then you will have conclusively proven to me that Quixtar can survive on its own merits and I will freely admit so.
Q*> You still have yet to prove one point.C'mon man dont let the fact that you failed in the business, keep you from accepting statistics. once again #1 is that hard for you to understand. If you were me and you had to keep stating the same statistics over and over from reputable sources, not Don Incognito on the internet. would you not question my intelligence?
waste of time: 2 min( had to edit some)
DI> You're making a hell of a lot of assumptions here. I was never in the business. I've already told you why the statistics you quote are meaningless in a free market situation. You've done nothing to show that they're not.
Yet again: Prove to me that Quixtar's large "health and beauty" sales volume is generated primarily by disinterested consumers (read: non-IBOs). Then, those sales figures will prove that Quixtar can compete in the free market and survive on its own merits and not because it has a dedicated consumer base.
No one is forcing you to "waste time" here. But so you "waste" less time, for once, try to actually comprehend what I'm saying here. So far, you've failed to do so.
DI Ill have a little time to play later, Im going to an Open meeting. See ya!
This is good, Ill be a little late. But this is it.
It IS very relevant what your Profession is. Im not diverting anything, but it seems as though you are.Must be embarrased.
1) You do NOT need an IBO# to register, the volume will go to the local platinum of where the person is ordering from. Sorry.
2)The bottom line is profit you are correct. Profit to your business, not someone elses.Because of the volume I produce my products are free. No need to shop around. Sorry
3) DI, cmon .....think, no ....a little harder, you almost got it........ there you go.The numbers ARE for the "entire American market" ever heard of the internet?I think anyone can shop on it.
4)This is crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DI>Quixtar's sales ranking has nothing to do with it succeeding in a free marketplace.
Q*> You can not be this ignorant.
5)What?
DI> You're making a hell of a lot of assumptions here. I was never in the business.
Q*> Why on earth would you spend time arguing something you have no knowledge of?
6)The only point you are trying to make over and over is that, even though Q* is #1 in H&B and # 14 in ALL retail websites. That somehow all of this volume is being produced by IBO's only. Lets think this one through, you are good at math, right? To beat out the entire remaining citizens in america who shop for retail products online, not just by alittle bit but to beat out all of the other Fortune 500 companys. How many IBOs are there?And, how much does each one spend? Its mathematically impossible. Sorry dude admit defeat.
This will solve your problem. A dedicated consumer base. Meaning that they have an incentive to shop their or they wouldnt.Another ingenius idea brought to the american people by free enterprise.Why do for free what companys are willing to pay you for.
DI> Is anyone FORCED to buy products from Q*? Answer this and you will have defeated your own argument
Q*>It IS very relevant what your Profession is. Im not diverting anything, but it seems as though you are.Must be embarrased.
DI> Not relevant, and not embarrased. This is Quixtar Blog, not Don Incognito blog. Instead of defending your business, you're picking at straws to attack others. Bad form, buddy, bad form.
Q*> 1) You do NOT need an IBO# to register, the volume will go to the local platinum of where the person is ordering from. Sorry.
DI> I'll concede that point because I am not about to purchase something from Quixtar to see whether you are correct. But to register as a client, one still needs an IBO #.
Q*> 2)The bottom line is profit you are correct. Profit to your business, not someone elses.Because of the volume I produce my products are free. No need to shop around. Sorry
DI> They're free? I don't think so. Maybe the cost of your products is covered by your bonus. But that's not free. That means the amount you earn from Quixtar is bonus - product cost.
Still, your gas station comparison was incorrect, and I've demonstrated above why. Buying "from yourself" does not always equal getting the most value for your dollar, or saving the most money. You have to use your judgement to find out when it's useful.
Q*> 3) DI, cmon .....think, no ....a little harder, you almost got it........ there you go.The numbers ARE for the "entire American market" ever heard of the internet?I think anyone can shop on it.
DI> You either have reading comprehension problems or are deliberately beating around the bush. Yes, the numbers are in comparison to the entire market. What concerns me is HOW those numbers are generated. Are they so high because the products are bought mostly by IBOs? Or are most of the products bought by disinterested consumers? If you can SHOW ME that the latter is true, then you will have proven that Quixtar can compete in the free market.
DI>Quixtar's sales ranking has nothing to do with it succeeding in a free marketplace.
Q*> You can not be this ignorant.
DI> I've explained numerous times how I came to that conclusion, and why that conclusion is logical. Look at my earlier posts for a detailed explanation. Once again, if the high sales ranking is generated mostly by IBO CONSUMPTION, then the sales ranking is irrelevant to judging Quixtar's viability in a free market. If the sales ranking is generated mostly by outside consumption, then Quixtar can compete.
Q*> Why on earth would you spend time arguing something you have no knowledge of?
DI> Just because I wasn't conned into signing up for Quixtar doesn't mean I have no knowledge of it. I've been recruited, I've been to meetings, and I've done plenty of research. And I argue on here because it's fun.
DI> 6)The only point you are trying to make over and over is that, even though Q* is #1 in H&B and # 14 in ALL retail websites. That somehow all of this volume is being produced by IBO's only.
Q*> I'm asking you to show me that it isn't. If you can do that, with verifiable data, you'll show me that Quixtar can survive in a free market without a dedicated consumer force.
DI> Lets think this one through, you are good at math, right? To beat out the entire remaining citizens in america who shop for retail products online, not just by alittle bit but to beat out all of the other Fortune 500 companys. How many IBOs are there?And, how much does each one spend? Its mathematically impossible. Sorry dude admit defeat.
Q*> I will admit defeat when you give me the numbers that prove me wrong. You've failed to do so. Your theorizing above proves nothing.
Q*> This will solve your problem. A dedicated consumer base. Meaning that they have an incentive to shop their or they wouldnt.Another ingenius idea brought to the american people by free enterprise.Why do for free what companys are willing to pay you for. Is anyone FORCED to buy products from Q*? Answer this and you will have defeated your own argument
DI> Forced? No. But they are taught, over and over, by uplines and tapes, and at meetings and conferences, that if they want to succeed, they need to buy from Quixtar and Quixtar only. So, "forced"? Probably not. "Pressured"? A very definite yes. Due to this pressure, or incentive, if you want to call it that, and the belief instilled in them that "buying from yourself" is the key to success, many IBOs shop from Quixtar only, despite the higher prices. That is not a free market situation.
Now, enjoy your late night meeting! I'll be having another glass of brandy. GO DIAMOND!
Im Back! Unfortunatley, DI you still have learned absolutley nothing.I have to admit,at first it was a bit frustrating trying to help you understand your flawed views. Now I realize you are either too dense to realize, or you are doing anything you can at all costs even blatantly denying reality to save face. I think that it is the latter.
DI>Not relevant, and not embarrased. This is Quixtar Blog, not Don Incognito blog. Instead of defending your business, you're picking at straws to attack others. Bad form, buddy, bad form.
Q* It IS relavent, the fact that you are unwilling to divulge that information shows that you have something to hide! I have nothing to defend, my business speaks for itself.The only one picking straws is you.Wasting keystrokes repeating the same tired statements.
DI>But to register as a client, one still needs an IBO #.
Q*>FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Go to the website,click on FIND PRODUCTS, pick any one then place it in your cart, next it will give you an order form to have your products delivered to you.You dont actually have to buy it but just so you dont go around looking ignorant you might want to check into this. I Believe in you, you can do it.
DI> They're free? I don't think so. Maybe the cost of your products is covered by your bonus. But that's not free. That means the amount you earn from Quixtar is bonus - product cost.
Q*> So dosnt that basically mean they are free? I pay nothing for them. Oh yeah, and I get a bonus. Good Point.
DI> You either have reading comprehension problems or are deliberately beating around the bush. Yes, the numbers are in comparison to the entire market. What concerns me is HOW those numbers are generated. Are they so high because the products are bought mostly by IBOs? Or are most of the products bought by disinterested consumers? If you can SHOW ME that the latter is true, then you will have proven that Quixtar can compete in the free market.
Q*> Now Don, I really dont believe you here simply because I HAVE PROVED THAT!!!!Look man it does not matter HOW the volume is generated, the fact is that it is.The whole concept of quixtar is getting paid for creating a customer base. IBO, Client or Member. Lets say you went to Wal-Mart ( or wherever you shop) and they told you that from that point forward anybody that shopped there because Don Incognito sent them, they would pay you a percentage of ANYTHING that they bought(for resale or not) . PLEASE tell me that you would not take them up on that.
DI>If the sales ranking is generated mostly by outside consumption, then Quixtar can compete.
Q*> Again, really man? #1.
Using your logic I guess that the Steelers were not competitive.
DI> Just because I wasn't conned into signing up for Quixtar doesn't mean I have no knowledge of it. I've been recruited, I've been to meetings, and I've done plenty of research. And I argue on here because it's fun.
Q*> Really, it seems like you have no knowledge of it.
Youve been to meetings so you know everything about the business huh?
Or your award winning research that somehow the combined legal teams of 27 of the top 100 companys in America that decided to partner with us missed. Good Job!
DI> Forced? No. But they are taught, over and over, by uplines and tapes, and at meetings and conferences, that if they want to succeed, they need to buy from Quixtar and Quixtar only. So, "forced"? Probably not. "Pressured"? A very definite yes. Due to this pressure, or incentive, if you want to call it that, and the belief instilled in them that "buying from yourself" is the key to success, many IBOs shop from Quixtar only, despite the higher prices. That is not a free market situation.
DI> Forced? No. But they are taught, over and over, by uplines and tapes, and at meetings and conferences, that if they want to succeed, they need to buy from Quixtar and Quixtar only. So, "forced"? Probably not. "Pressured"? A very definite yes. Due to this pressure, or incentive, if you want to call it that, and the belief instilled in them that "buying from yourself" is the key to success, many IBOs shop from Quixtar only, despite the higher prices. That is not a free market situation.
DI> Forced? No. But they are taught, over and over, by uplines and tapes, and at meetings and conferences, that if they want to succeed, they need to buy from Quixtar and Quixtar only. So, "forced"? Probably not. "Pressured"? A very definite yes. Due to this pressure, or incentive, if you want to call it that, and the belief instilled in them that "buying from yourself" is the key to success, many IBOs shop from Quixtar only, despite the higher prices. That is not a free market situation.
Q*>I was taught to do 100 points, IF I wanted to get paid. I never signed a contract,My upline never "convinced" me to do volume. I was born with something called COMMON SENSE.If you are going to live in Miami for 30 years, or even the rest of your life. Would it make sense to rent a house or pay a mortgage? Pay into a mortgage, right? Why? Because you are getting equity,you are not just throwing your money away, right?Well why do you let companys take the equity thats inside your house? Your consumable products. Because you dont know any better. Because your to busy looking for a catch. Hiding your head in the sand and letting reality pass you by. Look Don, The smartest people I know are in this business. In fact the smartest people I have ever met are in this business.Do a little more research, it might prove you missed something.
Q*PROUD, how much business is done in health and beauty overall? Quixtar has a good share of the online market, but if the online market is small, then overall, Quixtar's market share is small.
Overall, online represents less then 3% of the retail market. http://www.census.gov/mrts/www/data/html/05Q4.html. We also know that in Jan 06, health and beauty did about 19 million in sales in the USA http://www.census.gov/mrts/www/data/html/nsal06.html. This means, in any given month, Americans spend about $633 million dollars on health and beauty products if we assume that h/b products holds to the average of about 3% being brought online.
With that 1.5% market share, still think Quixtar is competitive?
Now, to the point about self consumption. Here's a question for your, Q*PROUD. When you were first starting out and did not have a big downline, were your products "free?" No, because you did not have a downline to gain a big enough bonus to pay for your products. Now, the next question is, how many in your downline did you need before your products became "free?" The point here is everyone in your downline is still paying for products until they themselves recruit a downline as large as yours. Say the number is 25 (a low estimate). For that 25 all to get their products for free, they each have to recruit 25 in their downline, or in math terms, experience exponential growth. If/when all 25 succeed, you now have a downline of 625 people. Pretty cool for you, but for 600 people, they are all still spending money on products. We take this another generation, and we now have 15625 people. 625 people getting product for free, 15000 still paying. One more generation, and we have 390625, or the population of a fairly sized city! And the overwhelming majority are still paying for their products, so that a tiny few can benefit!
Eventually, one of two things will happen. First, there will be a shortage of people, as exponential growth can get out of hand very quickly. Or second, those at the bottom will understand saturation has been reached and either not sign up, or quit after struggling to find 25 people on their own. And when this happens, the pyramid starts to crumble, because for every person dropped, one has to sign on. Otherwise, someone isn't getting their product for free any more.
And believe it or not, the Amway/Quixtar pyramid has been crumbling for years. It is only through recruitment of new IBO's that it doesn't disappear. At best, AmQuix is a in a state of equilibrium. The number of North American active IBO's in the 1970's was about 300,000. Today, it is about 330,000! One can even argue that AmQuix is smaller today in terms of percentages, as the total population of North America has risen considerably in the last 30+ years.
In the end, the buy from yourself model and teach others to do so does not work. The growth can not happen fast enough to sustain itself. It is why 2 out of every 3 IBO's quit every year! And as shown in the first paragraph, AmQuix only has a niche market to deal in. The products are not competitive on the open market (to non-IBO's), and in fact, if you take the average, each IBO is selling just under $300 a month in health/beauty products. And most of it is "unhealthy" self-consumption!
Oh, and to answer your question about Wal-Mart recruiting, the answer is no I would not. Why? Because I know that Wal-Mart already works on a low overhead. If they were to pay me for everyone I convinced to shop at Wal-Mart, they would have to raise their prices. Probably pretty significantly to cover everyone who were Wal-Mart recruiters (say 25%). Now say I'm a Wal-Mart recruiter (a WMR) and I go out and recruit my neighborhood and finallly get to the last house. I show my neighbor the plan and ask if he wants to be a WMR. He asks me if I have shown the plan to everyone on the block, to which I answer yes. He also asks me if I have shown the plan to my friends and family. I again say yes. Last, he asks if my friends and family who has signed up gone around their neighborhoods and shown their neighbors the plan. Again, I say yes.
Now, is this neighbor going to sign up? Not if he is smart!
I've already blanketed one of his prime markets (our neighborhood). Chances are, one of my friends or family has blanketed another one of his markets (six degrees of seperation). To make up the 25% mark-up Wal-Mart has to charge to pay me, my neighbor will have to work two to three times as hard as me. Or, he can be a smart consumer, and buy from Target, and save money!
DI> So they're going into a business which they seem to know very little about, based simply on a "belief" that good things will happen? That is quite possibly the worst way to make a business decision.
No, they are going into business with a team of people who are under contract to help them be successful. They are teaming up with a company that has a track record of PROFIT from day one and over $3 billion in sales. On a side note, 330,000 IBO's generating $3 billion in sales with no "free market" help = $9,090.91 spent by each IBO... HAHAHAHAHA! I don't know ANYONE that has spent that amount of money in Quixtar's web portal!
DI> How many of these people are other IBOs and how many are people that have no interest whatsoever in developing a Qx business?
So far this month, have had eight outside sales, totaling 88.41 PV and $293.07.
I have 8 registered IBO's who have purchased a total of 328.33 PV, with all of them reporting that they are running a profit as of 3/15/06.
DI> The issue here is the deceptive methods that IBOs use to describe Quixtar, especially when recruiting. There are a dozen different euphemisms for what Quixtar does, and none of them paints a complete and truthful picture of the business. Describing Quixtar as "nothing more" than wholesaling, e-commerce, order consolidation, etc. leaves out a great deal of other aspects of the business, namely, it's multi-level structure. In other words, saying that the business is "nothing more" than only one of its aspects is not the whole truth. Ergo, it is deceptive.
I never said anything about what the "business" is. Private Franchising and Quixtar are two separate entities in my book. My "business", DayLight Enterprises, gets it's products from Quixtar.com, and Osswald Enterprises, Krogh Industries, et al, get credit for DayLight's volume.
There is nothing wrong with multi-level or pyramids. If you have a job, or run a company, if there is a cash flow profit, it will have multiple levels and be pyramid in shape.
Q* It IS relavent, the fact that you are unwilling to divulge that information shows that you have something to hide! I have nothing to defend, my business speaks for itself.The only one picking straws is you.Wasting keystrokes repeating the same tired statements.
DI> Since when is divulging my personal information a requirement for arguing online? Only in the minds of Quixtar robots, so they can distract from the original point at hand. Nice try.
DI>But to register as a client, one still needs an IBO #.
Q*>FALSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
DI> Hmm...Got to Qx.com ->Register with Quixtar -> Register as a client. IBO number is a required field.
Q*> So dosnt that basically mean they are free? I pay nothing for them. Oh yeah, and I get a bonus. Good Point.
DI> No, smart one, that does not mean they are free. If you were not purchasing the products, you would have a larger bonus. Just because you don't pay for something in dollars does not mean it has no cost.
Q*> Now Don, I really dont believe you here simply because I HAVE PROVED THAT!!!!Look man it does not matter HOW the volume is generated, the fact is that it is.
Q*> No, you have not. I think this is going to be the twentieth time I've said this. My original point was regarding Qx's competitiveness in a free marketplace. This competitiveness may be judged by how many sales are conducted by DISINTERESTED CONSUMERS. Therefore, if you want to prove to me that Qx is competitive, you must show me that the sales volume is not mostly generated by IBOs. What part of this do you not understand?
Q*> The whole concept of quixtar is getting paid for creating a customer base. IBO, Client or Member. Lets say you went to Wal-Mart ( or wherever you shop) and they told you that from that point forward anybody that shopped there because Don Incognito sent them, they would pay you a percentage of ANYTHING that they bought(for resale or not) . PLEASE tell me that you would not take them up on that.
DI> I know the Quixtar concept. I'm talking about Quixtar's competitiveness. What is so hard to understand about this?
DI>If the sales ranking is generated mostly by outside consumption, then Quixtar can compete.
Q*> Again, really man? #1.
Using your logic I guess that the Steelers were not competitive.
DI> How in the hell is the football comparison relevant to a market system? That's the problem with you Quixbots. You repeat the same thing "#1 #1 #1" without realizing the finer points behind that ranking.
Q*> Or your award winning research that somehow the combined legal teams of 27 of the top 100 companys in America that decided to partner with us missed. Good Job!
DI> Another fallacy that IBOs perpetuate is the "partner stores." Why did you even bring this up? How is it relevant? I wasn't accusing Quixtar of any legal wrongdoing here. That's the problem, you spout off tapespeak without even knowing what the hell it is you're saying.
And since you mentioned it, the stores that affiliate with you don't confer any sort of extra legitimacy upon Quixtar. It's a win-win situation for them; they have Quixtar's drones buying their products. These stores are not in a "partnership" with Quixtar in the legal sense of the word.
DI> Forced? No. But they are taught, over and over, by uplines and tapes, and at meetings and conferences, that if they want to succeed, they need to buy from Quixtar and Quixtar only. So, "forced"? Probably not. "Pressured"? A very definite yes. Due to this pressure, or incentive, if you want to call it that, and the belief instilled in them that "buying from yourself" is the key to success, many IBOs shop from Quixtar only, despite the higher prices. That is not a free market situation.
Q*>I was taught to do 100 points, IF I wanted to get paid. I never signed a contract,My upline never "convinced" me to do volume. I was born with something called COMMON SENSE.If you are going to live in Miami for 30 years, or even the rest of your life. Would it make sense to rent a house or pay a mortgage? Pay into a mortgage, right? Why? Because you are getting equity,you are not just throwing your money away, right?Well why do you let companys take the equity thats inside your house? Your consumable products. Because you dont know any better. Because your to busy looking for a catch. Hiding your head in the sand and letting reality pass you by. Look Don, The smartest people I know are in this business. In fact the smartest people I have ever met are in this business.Do a little more research, it might prove you missed something.
DI> Wow, that last tirade was completely irrelevant to what I said in the paragraph above it. That's a good tactic, if you don't know how to answer it, just launch into a meaningless stream of consciousness and attack your opponent. Is that how they teach you to defend Quixtar? And apparently you have no common sense whatsoever since you spout nonsense about "equity in consumable products." Its amazing how much bullshit the sustem and its purveyors come up with to justify buying overpriced product. How about you reply to the actual points I made in that paragraph?
Creylish> No, they are going into business with a team of people who are under contract to help them be successful.
DI> Really? It seems that the systems are just there to fill their own pockets. Otherwise, the training would be free as it is in many other industries.
Creyliosh> They are teaming up with a company that has a track record of PROFIT from day one and over $3 billion in sales.
DI> Wow, the company at the top of the pyramid is profitable. Isn't Quixtar just the "supplier"? The supplier's profits have no bearing on the profits of your "independent business." That's probably why the average IBO income is $115 per month.
It's amazing how IBOs actively distance themselves from Quixtar ("only an order consolidation site") when they need to and then use the big corporation's profits to falsely justify an expectation of success in their own IBOships.
Creylish> On a side note, 330,000 IBO's generating $3 billion in sales with no "free market" help = $9,090.91 spent by each IBO... HAHAHAHAHA! I don't know ANYONE that has spent that amount of money in Quixtar's web portal!
DI> Creylish, what you personally don't know has no bearing on this discussion. Can you offer me proven statistics on how many outside clients bought from Qx annually? Your anectodal evidence is useless here.
Creylish> So far this month, have had eight outside sales, totaling 88.41 PV and $293.07.
I have 8 registered IBO's who have purchased a total of 328.33 PV, with all of them reporting that they are running a profit as of 3/15/06.
DI> Congrats on the outside sales. How long have your IBOs been in?
DI> The issue here is the deceptive methods that IBOs use to describe Quixtar, especially when recruiting. There are a dozen different euphemisms for what Quixtar does, and none of them paints a complete and truthful picture of the business. Describing Quixtar as "nothing more" than wholesaling, e-commerce, order consolidation, etc. leaves out a great deal of other aspects of the business, namely, it's multi-level structure. In other words, saying that the business is "nothing more" than only one of its aspects is not the whole truth. Ergo, it is deceptive.
Creylish> I never said anything about what the "business" is. Private Franchising and Quixtar are two separate entities in my book.
DI> You've described Quixtar earlier as "nothing more than a web portal." This "nothing more than" strategy of talking about Qx is what I was referring to above.
Creylish> My "business", DayLight Enterprises, gets it's products from Quixtar.com, and Osswald Enterprises, Krogh Industries, et al, get credit for DayLight's volume.
DI> "Krogh Industries"? ::lol:: Don't you have to actually produce something to be an industry?
Creylish> There is nothing wrong with multi-level or pyramids. If you have a job, or run a company, if there is a cash flow profit, it will have multiple levels and be pyramid in shape.
DI> That is a false comparison and you know it. Specifically, multilevel marketing refers to the cash flow within these pyramids. In other words, your upline gets paid for your volume. In a traditional situation, your boss is the one that pays you.
And there is plenty wrong with MLM pyramids, as shown by the controversy surrounding virtually each one of them.
I want to work where you are. Where your boss pays you. I have only had one "boss" who paid me in any of the lines of work I have done. In all the others, I get paid by the corporation. And that first job was doing yard work for my neighbor!
And in the "traditional" lines of work I have been in, the people at the top of the "pyramid" or corporation, makes the most money off of my hard work. Not so in this business. I have watched bonus checks go to my group that were ten to twelve times the amount that I got. They did the work, produced the volume, they deserve the "lion's share".
AGAIN, I said nothing about the business model when referring to Quixtar. Which is nothing more than a web portal that supplies my "business", DayLight Enterprises. You have a better supplier? One that pays the same? I'll go there.
I don't understand what you are trying to prove by asking how long my group has been in partnership together. They range from four years to brand new last month.
You missed the point on Quixtar in the "free market". By saying that what I know/don't know has no context, you are saying that each IBO having to put $9,090.91 into products through Quixtar in one year is completely realistic. If that is the case, then in my household, I would have spent the majority of my paycheck on products last year... Do you understand that?
As for the stats, I have already stated, "Of course the majority of sales will be to/through IBO's, they are the ones incentivized!" If I owned a gas station, I know that I would purchase from that station and no where else. Why? Because if my customers saw me purchasing from WinCo, they'd stop purchasing from my station, and I'd quickly be out of business...
Nope, the average IBO income is $115 per month because the "average" IBO doesn't DO anything. They think they know everything there is to know about how this works, and therefore don't get the help from their sponsors, and eventually quit.
I would think that the suppliers profits would count. Would adding the rest of that statistic help? They paid to IBO's $345 million in bonuses and other incentives. I got a piece of that pie. I don't understand why someone wouldn't...
Oh, the "system"! The one that the "kingpins" hoard all their money from! Bah. The system is optional. My group has been encouraged by one of the "kingpins" to stay out of the "system" if your business is not profitable. When he said that, my group went from 17 standing order cds to 3, and he wasn't concerned in the least. Now, my upline emerald was concerned, only because our product volume dropped as well.
And where are you seeing that the product is so much more expensive? I know that my purchasing saves me about $60 per month at FULL QUIXTAR RETAIL over what I used to spend. 'Course I had to do what my upline suggested and change my buying habits. Hmm, isn't that what they say at the presentation of the plan? Wonder why someone never asks "in what ways will I need to change?"
Creylish, if one IBO is making $100,000/year, then for the average IBO to make $115/month, about 72.5 are doing nothing. How many IBO's are making $100,000/year or more?
Your assumption that the average is low is due only because of the total of IBO's doing nothing is false. We know there are IBO's who make over $100,000/year that balance out the ones making nothing. It creates a huge standard deviation, but it probably means the $115/month is closer to the truth then you want it to be, creylish.
Creylish> And in the "traditional" lines of work I have been in, the people at the top of the "pyramid" or corporation, makes the most money off of my hard work. Not so in this business. I have watched bonus checks go to my group that were ten to twelve times the amount that I got. They did the work, produced the volume, they deserve the "lion's share".
DI> The point I'm trying to make is that comparing a traditional job to an MLM scheme is a fallacious comparison. In an MLM, the money flows up the pyramid. In a traditional job, it flows down the pyramid. Just because there are a few people "on top" of a corpration does not make it alike to a pyramid scheme.
Creylish> AGAIN, I said nothing about the business model when referring to Quixtar. Which is nothing more than a web portal that supplies my "business", DayLight Enterprises. You have a better supplier? One that pays the same? I'll go there.
DI> Again, this is the deception that I'm talking about. Quixtar is not "nothing more" than a web portal. Quixtar has a number of aspects that would take at least several sentences to describe. By calling it "nothing more than a web portal," (even though in the same sentence you call it a "supplier") you are not telling the whole truth, and therefore, being deceptive.
Creylish> I don't understand what you are trying to prove by asking how long my group has been in partnership together. They range from four years to brand new last month.
DI> You said that everyone in your group is currently making a profit. I'm curious how long they've been in and for what period they've been making a profit. Also, have tools expenses already been subtracted from that profit?
Creylish>You missed the point on Quixtar in the "free market". By saying that what I know/don't know has no context, you are saying that each IBO having to put $9,090.91 into products through Quixtar in one year is completely realistic. If that is the case, then in my household, I would have spent the majority of my paycheck on products last year... Do you understand that?
DI> What I'm saying is that your half-minute calculations and your opinions on what is "realistic" are irrelevant. If you want to prove me wrong, that the majority of product purchases do not come from IBOs, you're going to have to give me published figures (if there are any). Your own judgement on what is realistic or not has no bearing here.
Creylish> As for the stats, I have already stated, "Of course the majority of sales will be to/through IBO's, they are the ones incentivized!" If I owned a gas station, I know that I would purchase from that station and no where else. Why? Because if my customers saw me purchasing from WinCo, they'd stop purchasing from my station, and I'd quickly be out of business...
DI> Your use of the fallacious gas station comparison shows that you have little traditional business owner know-how. As I've said before on this thread: Gas stations make a profit of about 3 cents on the dollar when selling gas. In my city, Miami, gas prices (for premium) range from about $2.40 to $2.80, depending on the location and brand of the gas station, among other things. Therefore, if my Exxon gas station was charging $2.60 per gallon of premium, my price as the owner would be $2.52. Meanwhile, Costco charges $2.40 per gallon. I'm going to Costco!
Unless, of course, you live in a town of 15 people where everyone cares where you go to shop. And that's just silly.
Creylish> I would think that the suppliers profits would count. Would adding the rest of that statistic help? They paid to IBO's $345 million in bonuses and other incentives. I got a piece of that pie. I don't understand why someone wouldn't...
DI> THe supplier's profitability has little to no bearing on the viability of your "independent" business. Once again, with a modicum of business know-how, you'd understand that. THe $345M in bonuses, divided by the number of IBOs, translates to that same paltry $115 per month. ANd dmm already addressed that.
All these numbers look really impressive on the surface. But once you take 2 minutes to analyze them, it's obvious that they mean very little as far as the profitability of an individual IBOship.
Don Incognito, this is not going to be a personal attack against you. I know that you usually respond this way thinking that you are making a point about my character. You OBVIOUSLY are not trying to understand anything. You are simply ignoring the facts, repeating the same mis-informed responses over and over. You dont make any sense. If you are wrong about something, then admit it and move on. Maybe there is an underlying reason as to why you cannot accept this fact. American Society is run under a free enterprise system "free market". That includes ALL businesses in the United States. Q* does not have its own economy! Therefore any one associated with Q* is also part of the free economy.PERIOD. There is no further reason to dwell on this FACT. As of now, because of your unwillingness to be intelligent this is about the only topic weve discussed. So NO MORE.
DI> Since when is divulging my personal information a requirement for arguing online? Only in the minds of Quixtar robots, so they can distract from the original point at hand. Nice try.
Q*> Its not required, it just shows that you have absolutely no business sense whatsoever.I didnt ask you for your Bank account #'s Just your freakin occupation moron.
DI> Hmm...Got to Qx.com ->Register with Quixtar -> Register as a client. IBO number is a required field.
Q*>Here you go genius,
https://www.quixtar.com/Business/Register/Surfer.aspx?goto=/products/product.aspx?pid=1957&Ctg=2185&ItemNo=708912&act=additem
Notice the section down at the bottom that says"Did an IBO refer you" That gives you the OPTION of even being linked with an IBO. So that ought to clear up any misconceptions of yours bucko.It also gives the people viewing this a little insight into your unwillingness to admit you are WRONG.
DI> No, smart one, that does not mean they are free. If you were not purchasing the products, you would have a larger bonus. Just because you don't pay for something in dollars does not mean it has no cost.
Q*> So if you went to buy a new Mercedes, and the COST was 50,000 for example. But in buying that Mercedes,the company gave you 100,000. That is not free by your definition.
DI>No, you have not. I think this is going to be the twentieth time I've said this. My original point was regarding Qx's competitiveness in a free marketplace. This competitiveness may be judged by how many sales are conducted by DISINTERESTED CONSUMERS. Therefore, if you want to prove to me that Qx is competitive, you must show me that the sales volume is not mostly generated by IBOs. What part of this do you not understand?
Q*> Competitive by whose standards? Obviously to you being #1 in any field, is sub-standard. I know the point you are trying to make is that in Don Incognito world you will not except the FACTS. You want to set certain qualifications in order to be able to claim FACTS. This is not reality. You do not dictate standards. The bottom line is #1 in sales PERIOD sorry they did not call and ask you if this was o.k.
DI> I know the Quixtar concept. I'm talking about Quixtar's competitiveness. What is so hard to understand about this?
Q*>Good question.You tell me.
Q*>The next few points werent even worth mentioning.
DI>That's the problem, you spout off tapespeak without even knowing what the hell it is you're saying.
And since you mentioned it, the stores that affiliate with you don't confer any sort of extra legitimacy upon Quixtar. It's a win-win situation for them; they have Quixtar's drones buying their products. These stores are not in a "partnership" with Quixtar in the legal sense of the word.
Q*>Nothing I have said is tapespeak. Conversly almost everything you have said has been posted by deranged ex-IBOs
This shows your true genius all of the companys we are affiliated with throw there name out ther to anyone, begging for customers. In fact if you were to open a website, they would affiliate with you right?Moron
DI> Wow, that last tirade was completely irrelevant to what I said in the paragraph above it. That's a good tactic, if you don't know how to answer it, just launch into a meaningless stream of consciousness and attack your opponent. Is that how they teach you to defend Quixtar? And apparently you have no common sense whatsoever since you spout nonsense about "equity in consumable products." Its amazing how much bullshit the sustem and its purveyors come up with to justify buying overpriced product. How about you reply to the actual points I made in that paragraph?
Q*> No one has taught me how to defend Q*. And if you dont see that you are going to be buying consumable products for the rest of your life,using them, and then buying more. Taking the time away from your family to earn those dollars at your MYSTERIOUS job. Then you truly deserve what you get.Hey maybe one day you can do my laundry for me.Or wash my car. America needs broke people and you will make a good one. Thanks!
DMM> Thats all been said before man. If saturation exixted then religion would have been saturated. Trust me, theres enough dumb people around. You can start with Mr. Incognito
Q*, you are obviously so indoctrinated that arguing with you is like talking to a wall. I will attempt to do this one last time but you seem incapable of understanding my very simple point and instead resort to personal attacks against me.
YES, Qx exists in a free enterprise system. YES, it is #1 in online h&b sales.
Now, I want you to give me a simple answer to a simple question.
WHAT PERCENTAGE of those sales was generated by IBOs, and what percentage was generated by outside clients?
When you can answer this question, we'll talk. Until then, I hope that hurling insults at internet ghosts provides you with some sort of justification for what you are doing. GO DIAMOND!
DI>YES, Qx exists in a free enterprise system. YES, it is #1 in online h&b sales.
Q*> Wow, that only took 200 posts.
DI>WHAT PERCENTAGE of those sales was generated by IBOs, and what percentage was generated by outside clients?
Q*>We both know that its not, but lets say for your example 100%. What difference does that make?It still does not change its revenues, ranking, or percentage of market share. Wal Mart keeps people coming back with low prices. Q* keeps people coming back with the incentive to earn money.Where is the problem?
Continue discussion in the QBlog Forum
Strange, no one has figured out that stacking adversely affects your profitability.
Team of Doom comes to mind.
Posted by: Joecool18 | March 1, 2006 11:10 PM