« Blogging 101 - Influencing Business | Main | Redesign Development »
February 6, 2006
Monday Reader Mail: 73
By QBlog in Reader Mail
I decided to edit this week's Reader Mail because it quotes one of my own blog posts. Two paragraphs from the Quixtar Backbone Project have been shortened. Maybe it's not really editing if I remove my own words.
name: Jolene
date: January 28, 2006
message: Hi
A fairly new IBO from NS, Canada.
what you say here: "...I know, and have always known, that Quixtar is filled with wonderfully decent people working hard to make a better life for themselves and their families..."
I think that is amazing. That is us.
We've been in the business for about a year now but we haven't done much i must say. But we're learning. We've been busy and just ahven't had time - well- we thought we didn't - but after reading blog after blog and site after site talking about the system and the tools and the seminars etc etc...and how people make so much money OFF OF US - well - we remembered how in the beginning we decided that we didn't really want to go to seminars - sure we'd go to some - when we could - and we bought some tapes WE thought were good - off of ebay - and we truly believe in the business - and the better life - and THAT is what we think quixtar is about.
thanks for listening
Isn't that the essence of what Rich and Jay built years ago? Ordinary people building a business instead of participating in some sort of motivational movement.
Comments
The motivation in itself is ok. If the kingpins said go to B&N and buy this book, or a certain tape/cd, then that would not be a conflict of interest. Selling motivation under the guise of building the quixtar business is.
Also,the profits from tools used to be a secret. Now that the kingpins can't hide it, they admit there's profit, but they downplay the amount.
Someone can just do the math and figure out there's a fortune being made off tools.
Joecool18,
I agree with you, if the tool profits were disclosed, the "kingpins" would have to get out or lower the prices. Do you sense the need for an internet revolt? I seem to recall some folks a few years ago who said "no taxation without representation" got some pretty good results when they stood up for themselves. If every IBO who sees this and contacts their upline and corporation about the concern, something may happen. I have done this (and more), how 'bout you?
Then the kingpins complain to the corp and the corp terminates you
:-)
Or they give you the "who farted" look when you mention it.
Don't forget, a lot of IBO's I know have been shamed after they get out - the System builds in guilt as they're "teaching" you, so that if and when you do quit, you'll hopefully bury it and never mention it again.
There is certainly nothing wrong with motivation, and there is nothing wrong with making some income off of motivating your team. But when the bulk of your income is made from it, when you hide that fact from your downline, when your main interest is your motivation business and not the Quixtar business, that is wrong indeed.
Tex
You are trained to NOT question anything. There is a reason for that.
In my opinion, the reason is so that you don't ask questions, and you do as you are told.
If you were doing what the kingpins are doing, would you want a bunch of questions asked? My guess is no.
Part of being CORE is being loyal. If you aren't loyal, you aren't CORE. If you aren't CORE, you'll never succeed.
It is a bit of a paradox, it being "your business" but you are told how to do it, how to feel when you are doing it, and what to think while you are doing it.
Some would think that is really unusual.
I would agree with them.
I guess another way to look at it would be if the diamonds said "Hey come buy all my tapes/cd's, attend my seminars. I do make a fortune from these teaching materials, but in exchange, I will teach to to run a quixtar business".
How many people would sign up under these conditions?
Now don't get me wrong, some of the information from the diamonds is useful, and being compensated for that knowledge is ok, but they are receiving excessive profits, and based on the amount of success being churned out, I'd have to say their teaching is not that effective.
If most IBO's are not making a net profit anyway, what do we have to lose? I would remind everyone only 1/3 of the Colonists were for a revolution, 1/3 were loyal to England, and 1/3 didn't care one way or the other. It still worked. Plus, we should have much better percentages than the above, and they didn't even have the internet. I, for one, would say, "the kingpins are coming, the kingpins are coming".
I agree with all the above posts......
Consider this:.....
Suppose, you buy a pizza shop. the owner / seller tells you you'll make a lot of money, and have great lifestyle, evidenced by HIS lifestyle, cars, houses, airplanes etc. He has no real proof of income. He (seller) says "don't ask to see my books, invoices, payments". ......
The seller says, just look at my "lifestlye," that should be proof enough......
SO, YOU BUY his pizza shop, and find it isn't nearly as profitable as he said. It is not even as profitable as the "average" pizza shop.......
THEN, you find out the seller, also owns ANOTHER, much bigger business. He sells boxes, supplies and ingredients to pizza shops ALL OVER THE COUNTRY. .......
Would you THEN wonder where he got his 'lifestyle"?.......
How would you feel about THAT?.......
THAT IS WHAT THIS BUSINESS DOES TO PEOPLE.......
Frank
I respectully disagree with my fellow critics on this one. Many of you are suggesting reform for something that is corrupt beyond the point of repair. A/Q Altiocr had the chance to fix this thing back in 1983. They didn't do it. By their inaction, they are just as guilty as the kingpins themselves. The opportunity for reform has long since passed. I hope I live long enough to see the entire Van Andel / DeVos ball of wax go the way of Arthur Anderson.
Scott,
While I agree DeVos failed to follow through on the tool abuse, which has continued until this day, they are at least on record for being aware of the problem. Check out this Arthur Anderson info from Wikipedia, Arthur Anderson was found to be innocent after all, but probably too little, too late:
On June 15, 2002, Andersen was convicted of obstruction of justice for shredding documents related to its audit of Enron. Since the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission does not allow convicted felons to audit public companies, the firm agreed to surrender its licenses and its right to practice before the SEC on August 31.
On May 31, 2005, the Supreme Court of the United States unanimously overturned Andersen's conviction due to flaws in the jury instructions. In the court's view, the instructions allowed the jury to convict Andersen without proving that the firm knew it broke the law or that there was a link to any official proceeding that prohibited the destruction of documents. The opinion was also highly skeptical of the government's definition of "corrupt persuasion" — persuasion with an improper purpose even without knowing an act is unlawful.
Despite this ruling, it is highly unlikely Andersen will ever return as a viable business. The firm lost nearly all of its clients when it was indicted, and there are over 100 civil suits pending against the firm related to its audits of Enron and other companies. It began winding down its American operations after the indictment. From a high of 28,000 employees in the US and 85,000 worldwide, the firm is now down to around 200 based primarily in Chicago. Most of their attention is on handling the lawsuits.
i've only been in a couple months and a lot of the things discussed here have crossed my mind. but, i've never felt pressure to buy the tapes and books beyond the notion that these are methods that have produced success. when a person writes the check for harvrard does he write it with the belief that their record improves that persons chances, but not a garauntee, of similar success. when i want to excel at something do i ask the person that has failed or quit that endeavor? when i want to learn something new who do i ask to teach me? someone who has done well at it or someone who has failed? the "kingpins" as they have been refered to here are constantly saying this is your business, go at whatever pace you want. if you want to pay off a few bills, fine, if you want to bring your wife home to be with your kids that's good too. and if you have bigger dreams to be free and not have to work and maybe leave something for your children we'll show you what has worked. the more you want to accomplish the more work you have to put in. just like everything in life. if you want to have a comfortable living, not much is required of you, but if you want to achieve greatness in any field there are sacrafices to be made. i've known this for years, before i ever started building my future with quixtar. i can sit and quibble about what those who are putting in the work and time are making or i can put in the work and time and achieve something for myself. not a hand out, but a reward for my efforts. sounds a lot like something called the american dream where we're free to try and we're free to fail too.
Tex,
You're right in that I probably shouldn't have used Arthur Andersen as an example. (The article, however, said the conviction was overturned which is not the same thing as saying that they were found innocent.)
It occurred to me while reading the comments on today's topics that A/Q knew of the tools abuses since 1983 but didn't take (enough) action to stop it. Anyone who got into the business after that time paid the price for A/Q's lack of resolve. Some of the earlier posts suggested reform, but I feel that A/Q's window of opportunity has closed. I realize that a lot of IBO's still get into the business on good faith, but I hope the company becomes extinct.
Scott,
Yes, overturned may not be technically identical to innocent, but even if they were found innocent, it is probably too late to fix the damage it has caused to that name.
I think when push comes to shove, the corporation will do something to survive. I would suggest sending an e-mail to all IBO's explaining they are making changes, and perhaps even sweeten the product bonus as an olive branch. Then, watch the "kingpins" squirm, I would love to see that. Remember, most of the volume in 1983 was in the US, and now most of the volume is in other countries. I doubt the "kingpins" have the same stranglehold on foreign markets as they do here. I don't even know if most foreign markets have the same abusive tool structure, as most of the world is not as wealthy as the average American.
Doug;
Yes, learn about success from someone who has met it, but most of the Quixtar motivational material leads you to believe that the Diamond's lifestyle is funded through their Quixtar activities -- follow their business model, reach Diamond and receive the same benefits.
Unfortunately, most if not all of their lifestyle is not funded through their Quixtar accomplishments but from producing and selling motivational materials. If their material is geared to how to write and sell books, your argument makes sense. If, however, it infers that they have a path to riches through Quixtar, it is not truthful.
Might want to watch the tapespeak around here. The regulars could probably regurgitate your entire post verbatim in their sleep. It is really that often splayed about.
Doug, if I want to learn to be successful in a certain activity, you can be sure I will talk to people who were both successful and unsucessful. You can learn just as much, if not more from people who have failed, as what does not work is just as important, if not more important then what does work. Knowledge is power, and if you turn your brain off to all things "negative," you may be missing some very important information that could be very useful to you. Or you may be missing nothing. The point is, you do not know until you research and find out for yourself.
Regarding Quixtar, the problem is the kingpin system does not work as advertised. How many new diamonds have broken over the past three years? If this is supposed to be a 2-5 year plan, and Quixtar is 6 years old, shouldn't there be dozens, if not hundreds of new diamonds? Where are they?
The answer is the system does not work. In fact, it is designed for the IBO masses to fail, and keep on paying into the system, because the system, as Janet points out, is the main funding source for kingpins. No matter how you do the math, the fact is less then 1/2 of 1% of all IBO's are diamonds. Less then 1% are even at the platinum level. Sure some failure can be attributed to human failure/laziness, but when the success numbers are this low, the answer has to be deeper and/or multi-faceted. Laziness alone does not account for over 99 people who do not make platinum for every 1 who does.
dmm,
I agree with most of your assessment. However, when it comes to the percent who are Diamond, Platinum, etc., be careful to note this is the CURRENT percentage, not your likelihood of achieving any level in the future. I agree with the "kingpimp", oops, I mean "kingpin" tool abuse, and the lying cowards that they are. However, if each IBO does 100 PV, then it will take at least 75 IBO's to produce 1 Platinum, assuming they are not all in one leg. This means at that instant of time, there are about 1.3% who achieve Platinum, not far from your numbers. The differences are not all do 100 PV (some do more, some less, I am not sure what the average is), and there are one-legged silvers who have the volume, but not enough width, to be a Platinum. For the Diamond, multiply 75 by 6, or 450 IBO's, which gives about 0.2%. This only describes the number, in percentage terms, of the current Platinums and Diamonds. Due to your efforts, you can rise to these levels over time. The current troubles is the tool abuse is out of the bag, and the internet is causing grave concern among the "kinpins/pimps". Too bad for them we live in a free country and can speak our mind, as long as it is not intentionally lying.
Hi Jolene,
I will make no bones about my bias, I am a rabid Anti-Quixtar Zealot. I hate this corporation with every fiber of my being. I will do everything within my power to destroy this company, because in my opinion, they have hurt way too many people, for far too long. Our regulators are twiddling their thumbs, while our legislators are asleep at the wheel (and some of them are in cahoots with these thugs).
My logical objections to this "business"? I have ONE FUNDAMENTAL problem with this business - The products are overpriced. This means the people at the bottom of the pyramid (which would be the majority) are GUARANTEED to lose money.
Let's say, you are not willing to even consider the validity of my argument, because of my clear bias.
But a lot of the regular folks here, even the Ex-Quixtar IBOs probably don't share my degree of passion. And I would say, Eric Janssen, the author of this blog, is perhaps the most dispassionate of them all. There's a lot you can learn from them. I would suggest you read all the posts on here and also research the forum thoroughly.
NOW. If you want a totally dispassionate commentator, if you want to read one of the most articulate, reasoned, well-thought-out, analysis of the FUNDAMENTAL ECONOMIC FLAWS of this business, here are a few links for you. And, mind you, this guy was never an IBO.
DOES IT CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING TO THE ECONOMY??
I have always enjoyed rabid anti-Amway zealots... I've been one since 1999. "Perceptive" is spot on: too many people for too long.
My reason for leaving and becoming an "anti-" was entirely based on the lies of the motivational tools. In my industry, if we want our independent reps to sell products (from which we derive profit), we provide them the tools - for free - and they are truly independent business owners.
The lie of Am/Quix is that these large distributor organizations monopolize the revenue flow from a shadow business, the revenue of which should in all rights be apportioned under the same compensation plan as the products, IF IT (the shadow pyramid) NEEDS TO EXIST AT ALL AS A BUSINESS. Individual distributors, possibly direct and above (the true independent businesses in Am/Quix) should have the ABSOLUTE RIGHT to create or source motivational materials from any source.
The monopoly held by the large organizations is the cancer which will eventually destroy Am/Quix from within!
Whew... Glad to get that one off my chest.
I feel better now
Keith,
Any IBO has the right to "create or source motivational materials from any source."
I only wanted to comment on the mis-conception of price. There are products (the hair care, for example), that I feel as an IBO are overpriced. But I have not found any valid reason for the laundry care. Have any of you actually used a full box of the product? I used to use Tide, and a box the same size as the SA8 would last me three months. The SA8 box lasts me 18 months! So, in my area, the cheapest box of Tide is about $5 for the box. This means I need six boxes of Tide for my one box of SA8. Costs?
SA8: $22.75
6 boxes of Tide: $30
Sounds competitive to me. And I should know, because I have used the product for five years...
As for the energy drinks... The only time they aren't the exact same price as Red Bull (Quixtar's claimed XS competitor), is when you find Red Bull on sale. And when someone finds it on sale, because of my wholesale license and bonus structure, I have the ability to MATCH Red Bull's sale price...
If you go into business for yourself, you need to look at it as YOUR business, and find ways to make it run competitively. Not glance at a price and say "It's too expensive."
Creylish,
I am sorry, but you just shot yourself in the foot.
I am not referring to one or two products that are better value for the money than other choices available on the market.
I am referring to a "BROAD BASKET OF GOODS THAT ARE MONTHLY CONSUMABLES, i.e. THAT ARE CONSUMED ON A REPEAT BASIS EVERY MONTH". The Quixtar 'Plan' is sold to Prospects on the promise of so-called 'Residual Income', so I think, ONLY 'repeat monthly consumables' have to be considered. So, it raises the question, "IS IT ETHICAL TO TELL PEOPLE UNDERNEATH YOU, YOUR DOWLINE, TO BUY OVERPRICED PRODUCTS SO THAT YOU CAN MAKE A COMMISSION OFF OF THEIR PURCHASES"?
Creylish>> The SA8 box lasts me 18 months!
See, that very statement pokes a huge hole in the "Residual Income Theory"! One of Amway/Quixtar's flagship products lasts you for a year and a half! How much PV will that one purchase generate for your upline on a monthly basis??? Look at the average PV per IBO, per Quixtar Corpn.'s own statistics - a pathetic 38.5 PV!!!! This, inspite of many IBOs hyper-consuming AmQuix products to inflate their PV!
Every single statistic - the yearly dropout rate (67%), the percentage of member/clients registered, the average PV per IBO - points to ONE SINGLE THING- AMWAY/QUIXTAR PRODUCTS ARE A LOUSY VALUE FOR MONEY. THEY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO DEMAND OUTSIDE OF QUIXTAR-IBO-WORLD.
Yep, on the statistic that the box of SA8 lasts so long, I need to service many retial clients in order to maintain a PV bracket and get my bonus ON ONE PRODUCT. If they had no demand, then why are there people in my group who are NOT IBO's calling me at least once a month asking for their products?
It is a relief to know that the corporation literally has thousands of items. I only listed two because I didn't want to make my post any more lengthy than it already was.
Here are a couple more:
Both the liquid Dish Drops 33.8 FL oz ($10.50) and the Powder Dish Drops Normal/Hard Water 50 oz ($10.50)
Against
Cascade 45 oz ($3.00) and Palmolive Dish Detergent 13 Fl oz ($1.25)
The Cascade lasts me one month, while the Dish drops last me four and a little bit into the fifth month.
Cascade: $12.00
Dish Drops: $10.50
Palmolive usually lasts me two months, and the Dish Drops about a year, depending on what extra cleaning I do.
Palmolive: $7.50
Dish Drops: $10.50
Oh no, you got me there! One out of four so far!
But, I saved $1.50 on my dishwasher detergent, and $7.25 on my laundry soap... Still ahead on my savings. Plus I just got tires for my car (through the Quixtar program). The dealer told me that I could have saved only $4 if I had come to him. That didn't count the commission I get because I am an IBO...
So, I am STILL ahead by $1.75 not counting the "commission" or "rebate" that Quixtar pays me. The prices above are also at retail! I know my products because I didn't trust my upline or the television ads and used the products on my own to be sure, just like they told me to do if I didn't believe them!
Do you want further comparisons?
Creylish,
If you are retailing products, all the more power to you! You have my hearty endorsement! Isn't that what the business was supposed to be about? Why do you think people don't complain about Mary Kay or Pampered Chef? Those businesses are primarily about retailing products, not about pyramiding money up the chain by recruiting people to consume overpriced (by the pyramid premium) products.
More price comparisons? Sure I would love to see that. But don't bring Tires into the equation. Those are not regular repeat monthly purchases - the "Residual Income" concept is predicated upon those repeat purchases.
Secondly, you might have people who think AmQuix products are good value for the money. BUT, does the broad marketplace outside of the Quixtar IBO-world think so? I think the stats speak for themselves. Inspite of a nearly greater than 50% dropout rate, the consumption of AmQuix products in over 4 decades is still primarily inside the AmQuix Pyramid.
Perceptive:
"THEY (the products) HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO DEMAND OUTSIDE OF QUIXTAR-IBO-WORLD."
If they had ABSOLUTELY no demand, then I would have NO retail clients calling me, I would be calling them, and they would be avoiding the phone. I do get calls, so you are wrong there. To top that off, some of them try to pay me more because I make it convenient by dropping it off at their door!
Where did you get the stats for the product consumption? Of course the product consumption is mainly through Quixtar IBO's, they have the most to gain from their purchases! Would you mind sending me to the place where you got that statistic?
As for putting tires into the equation, maybe that was a little overboard. Take them out then, and I am $5.75 ahead.
Further comparisons:
Glister toothpaste 6.75 oz ($4.70) and Crest Cool Mint 6.4 oz ($2.69)
The first thing I noticed when I used Glister was that I used way too much! Had to actually cut the amount on my brush by more than half of what I was used to! A tube of Glister will last me four months, where Crest usually lasts two (if I make it stretch).
Glister: $4.70
Crest: $5.38
Now then, let's add in the mouth wash! Glister 2 fl oz/100 uses ($9.25) and Listerine 500 ml/25 uses ($6.79). This is based off what Glister and Listerine recommends for usage on their products. With Glister being concentrated, I am able to use it 150 times per 2 fl oz, but I won't show that here.
Glister: $9.25
Listerine: $13.58
Now, this savings is $5.01! Add it to my $5.75 from the other four products, and at six products, I have saved at FULL Quixtar RETAIL $10.76!
Hmm. Posted my response and had it removed. Either I cam across as angry (I hope not), or maybe I was not on topic?
Would really like to know...
Or I accidentally moved it because I was cleaning out about 50 instances of comment spam.
Creylish,
I haven't done a price comparison in a little while, but I am definitely going to check the price comparison that you have put up, this weekend, and get back to you.
Are you saying the prices that you have are all Quixtar RETAIL prices? i.e. the 'Client' price and NOT the IBO price?
QBlog, thanks for letting me know ;-) I wanted to be sure I wasn't stepping over any lines.
Perceptive, yes. All the pricing I gave you was at full Quixtar retail. I was at a training class (one of those cult thingies), where several successful people said "If you don't believe that we are price competitive, do a comparison yourself. Ask your sponsor how to do this."
I did ask, and got the "I don't know." answer from my sponsor (he was new?), and since I had "brand x" in my house, I bought brand "A" and tried them side by side. In all, I did comparisons on 16 products, and found that overall I saved $3.54 at the full retail, but if I stuck with a couple items, then I was going to spend more. One of our trainers asked us to do an experiment with him, and switch our eating habits from soda pop, candy bars, and dining out to eating three items (XS energy drink, meal replacement bar, and a protein bar) daily. He was very clear about not switching ALL off it, because you need to let loose every once in a while, but when we went on this progam, our savings jumped to $59.52, not including the checks that Quixtar mails to us every month...
Creylish,
XS is one thing I can't stand. It tastes awful (to me), and upsets my stomach. And I never found any energy boost, like lot of people claim it does. The meal replacement bars and the protein bars, again, all of them tasted awful - with one exception - I forget the name... I think it was the coconut-crunch flavor. I really liked that one. I agree that drinking soda and eating candy bars are bad habits. But, replacing Real Meals with Protein bars and Meal-replacement bars? That's ridiculous! In a stand-alone environment (without the expectation of PV being generated by you or your downline), I will bet you practically no one would do it. Secondly, I have a problem with people pitching Vitamins/Potions/whatever as replacements for Real Food. Consider Omega-3. I have heard several Doctors say that it is a good idea to take those supplements, but they are not as effective as taking the real thing, i.e. eating fish, because there are other things in fish that help with the absorption of Omega-3. Same with Vitamin-E supplements. If it is not water-soluble version, you need to consume it with a 'fatty' meal for it to be absorbed properly. I am not a Doctor or a Nutritionist, but I guess the point I am trying to make (based on my conversation with experts in this area) is that supplements should be just that - Supplements, Not Replacements. And the whole Nutrilite Vitamins are "better quality and absorb better" argument? Until the FDA or the New England Journal Of Medicine supports that version, I will stick to my Centrum ;-)....
I am enjoying this conversation, I have got more questions for you, I will be back. But, quickly, what is the average PV in your group? And what is your average monthly Personal PV?
I agree whole heartedly with you on the point of replacing all your meals, I am not big on supplements, either. That's why I replaced the *poop* meals at McD's that I was eating for lunch twenty one days of the month and replaced it with the three for thirty...
You are completely right on the point of having a bunch of people switching out like that not occuring unless they were incentivized to do so. But, our customers steadily push between fifty to one hundred PV in those three without asking for discounts, or the freebiess we give at random.
Another thing that makes me happy. Quixtar is always releasing new flavors because there are those that don't like the ones we have now.
It is really too bad that you had a reaction to the XS. Wonder if it was an ingrediant... On top of that, I don't get a huge energy boost, either, though it does help me on the days I am dragging through...
I don't want to post the "Average PV" because there was a disagreement in my organization causing about 7500 PV to stop flowing from a downline leg, and that would increase my "average".
As of this month, we are 1500 PV (Personal just short of 400). Since I started the progam test of replacing the McD meals, my business is consistantly above 300 PV, and my friends say that I act healthier, though I don't feel all that different...
I didn't care for the modern magic meals, and they were loaded with sodium. Many of the meals also looked like canned dog food.
The food bars were ok, but very pricey.
First of all, I want to say thanks to creylish for keeping his/her responses so thoughtful and civil. Frankly, I have been appalled at the number of IBOs using personal attacks and just being plain obnoxious. Most of the IBOs I know aren't like that.
I am an IBO trying to decide whether to stay in the business or not. First of all, I must say that I have had few, if any, negative experiences. My platinum uplines have never once pressured me to do anything.
I really don't have a problem with people making money off motivational tools. Motivational speakers make money off their talks, authors make money from their books, musicians from their CDs, etc. But I do agree that not having this information out in the open is, at the very least, suspect.
I honestly think Quixtar is a great business opportunity, but I am not sure if I want to spend the rest of my life, or even 2-5 years of my life, showing the plan 7 times a week. It's not one of my dreams to wake up at noon if I want and just travel around the world. (I know you can do anything you want, and that's not required.) I'm not sure that if I get married, I want to be relegated to just doing volume and never doing any of the "man's work," which I think I would be fabulous at. I'm not sure I want my uplines to be my main or sole source of advice, even when it comes to buying a house or car. I'm not sure I want the majority of my social interactions to be only with my fellow IBOs. I'm not sure I want to totally avoid all negative. (Too much is bad, but surely, negative is a part of life?) I'm not sure I want to totally abandon my fiercely independent and opinionated mind and regurgitate what I am told on tapes or on stage. (It's amazing how familiar the IBO lines are on this site, creylish being the exception.)
I would love to have oodles of money (who wouldn't?), but right now I feel life is too short to spend in the rabid pursuit of money. And I don't feel comfortable always visualizing material things I want, things I didn't want before. There may not be anything wrong with it, but it just doesn't sit well with me.
Again, I have no beef with Quixtar. I have been treated with the utmost love and respect by my upline. And people, let's face it, it only makes sense for an upline to spend time with someone who wants to work.
I just have really mixed feelings about the philosophies promoted by my particular organization. No, I don't believe financial independence brings "freedom." Freedom is much deeper than that. And, as a Christian, it bugs me that fellow Christians go on stage and talk about how they found "the truth" in this business.
So in summary, I think the business is a fantastic opportunity. It's just that what is preached in the tools doesn't sit well with me.
Rara, thanks for your candidness, and for the kudos. I wanted to be sure people were actually looking at what was being said, and getting to the truth, whatever it may be, and saw some IBO reactions on here made me think "Are we in kindergarten again?" I agree that the people making money off "the system" and not "the plan" should be a LOT more open about exactly where that money goes. I think that if they are responsible with it, then they shouldn't have a problem showing... Maybe building a business such as this isn't for you. Of course you don't have to build it large. I started to earn an extra $500 per month, and then took a vacation from doing anything with it. That is one of the great things about this opportunity. Make as little or as much as you want, choose which "support material" you want, work at it in your spare time... On another note, I do have friends and family that are outside of my business partners. I also counsel with people who are not in that same sphere of influence, and only distance myself from the negative people when they make a personal attack against me. At that time, they aren't really a friend anyway. I hope that whatever choice you make, you at least keep in contact with your upline, just in case something comes down the road later that makes you decide to give it another run. I know from experience that people do...
Dear Perceptive, regarding your statements about Omega-3 in fish and not supplements, and Centrum vs Nutrilite in 3rd party testing.
I question your sources on Omega-3. Please refer to ADVANCE for Physicians Assistants, journal, article by: Melissa Hall, MMSc, RD, PA-C stating "For the general public, this [proper intake of Omega-3] translates to at least two meals of fatty fish per week, in addition to including oils and foods rich in omega-3 fatty acids" and "Further recommendations for people with cardiovascular disease include an additional supplement of 600 mg of fish oil per day" provided with 16 seperate research sources. You will also find in the article the advantage of supplements over fish because of the toxin levels and mecury levels. (mercury is more sensetive in Women, especially when pregnant or breast feeding) No, P, you are not a DR, and be careful claims you make... furthermore, claims to 'replace food' with supplements is a statement i have never heard from any individual (DR, IBO, parent, anybody) and seriously doubt it is a argument against Q-star.
Finally, regarding the approval of supplements. I point you to www.consumerlabs.com and independent supplement research company. If you look at Double X (or any other of the 6-7 supplements they rated of Nutrilite) next to Centrum, it mentions the high quality and that the absorption and claims with Nutrilite are highly approved, but Centrum is not backed with such claims. There is a membership for this. Also, please show the FDA approval/NEJM article praising Centrum.
These statements were meant to set it clear that your points were opinions, and not facts, and you are not representative of a 'majority' of American consumers. (a majority does not set out their life to be rabidly opposed to a particular business)
I too enjoy the constructive points your conversation with Creylish is bringing up.
rara> I really don't have a problem with people making money off motivational tools. Motivational speakers make money off their talks, authors make money from their books, musicians from their CDs, etc. But I do agree that not having this information out in the open is, at the very least, suspect.
Joe> Neither do I but quixtar diamonds are running a quixtar business or a motivational business, or both?
I just read some more really disturbing information on the web about the QMOs (something which I was highly discouraged to do). I also listened to the one of the "Directly Speaking" audio files by Rich DeVos. I had no clue. I used to remember wondering how a diamond could afford a million dollar house and all those fancy cars and trinkets on $250 K a year, but with all the "excitement," I didn't think much about it. When I made the comment about not having a problem about them making money off the motivational tools, I had no clue HOW MUCH they were making.
I'm pretty disgusted. It's amazing how those people on stage who seemed so real can be so greedy. In my own organization, someone said it was poor people who were greedy and rich people generally were not. They had fewer divorces, etc. But let's not even get started on the divorces in the upper echelons of the business. It just goes to show that, whatever the diamonds want to say, Jesus was right about the deceitfulness of riches. And who was it that said: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely?
My question is: Why can't we read newspapers and watch tv? If the business (and I mean the tool business, because I still see a distinction between Quixtar, which I think is a great opportunity for those who it fits, and the tool business, although, until tonite, I really had no clue that there was even a tool business) is founded on integrity, then we should be able to handle the negative. As a devoted Christian, I hear "negative" about my faith, but I haven't fled it.
I've always prided myself on being very independent minded and that's why I never really bought into a lot of what was preached. But then, I didn't fully reject them either. And then my uplines were so nice. Well, to be exact, my platinums were, but my going-silvers were kind of pushy. I believed them because I was new and didn't know any better. Why couldn't I see that if I couldn't do my own thing but had to tow the party line, I wasn't really an *independent* business owner?
I also have the quality of wanting to see the best in people. That's why I trusted them. And they most likely aren't bad people. They were just duplicators. And if I had a team, I would be giving them the same schpiel too (shudder). My sister, who is a whole lot more cynical, could see right through it all at her first and only function. And I can't believe I was arguing with her that the diamonds made all their money from Quixtar.
It just goes to show how anyone can be drawn into cult-like activity. I could feel my independence of mind slipping away, but it was so slow, it seemed more like enlightenment. I'm so happy my brain wasn't so far gone as to alienate my friends (all of whom I still have except, incidentally, my ex-boyfriend, who is my sponsor in the business, but that's another story), quit my church activities for open meetings (although I did travel a lot), or think anyone who didn't want to join is a loser.
Creylish, I admire your independence, not giving into the pressure of buying every tool and attending every function. I wish you more success and more profit. As for me, sales is not my thing. I am an academic (or geek, take your pick).
I hope the other IBOs realize that they are slowly or rapidly being brainwashed. Just take a look at how similar your responses are, and it is interesting how I have heard every one of those lines before, even though I am sure we aren't even in the same organization.
In "Directly Speaking," Rich DeVos said tools aren't essential to success, even though they can be helpful, AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO JOIN THE BUSINESS ARE NOT LOSERS!!!
(This is so cathartic.)
I joined the organization very reluctantly at the request of my ex and was quite hostile for a while, but I guess love bombing and isolation really work. I mean, I thought my organization was the only one, then the main one, until I started noticing diamonds I had never heard of in the magazines and started reading of other organizations apart from BWW and WWDB yesterday.
Why the lies and deception? Why can't we be open? If they are so Christian, the Bible is full of "negative" about so many of the men of God. There was no whitewashing, no excuses, nothing hidden. I guess they realized that when the light of truth shines, what is built on lies will fall.
I did learn some good stuff and meet some good people and I think the books "The Magic of Thinking Big" and "How to Win Friends and Influence People" are awesome. I am only a couple thousand $ in debt, which, since I stopped doing eagle volume, has been going down. (Note: I didn't have a cent of credit card debt before this.)
Now I can be content to pursue the dreams I had originally before materialistic dreams were foisted on me. I can spend an evening doing nothing without feeling guilty, without the emotional roller coaster that comes with building the business certain peoples' way. Now, that's true freedom.
Last note for now: There is never any reason to suspend your critical thinking skills or follow any human being on *blind* faith. Even God gives us some evidence.
Dear rara, i have a concern with the credit card debt you said you got into with this business. you said a couple of thousand. Was it forced upon you to use a credit card? Why did you do it? Do you believe all people use credit cards to fund their business?
I am honestly not trying to poke holes in anything here, and respect your decision that this business team is not for you, i just have a big problem with credit card use and it being used against the business. The source of funding in the business is up to the individual. I do believe it should be noted that credit card debt is not something that is advised in all groups, even some groups in BWW and WWDB.
(People might get excited and think (irrationally IMO) that they can use credit and in 6 months, magically they will be able to pay it off. But is that, in the end, much different from someone who in July really wants to take a vacation/cruise with friends or family, go in debt, thinking a christmas bonus or the 'promised raise' in October will cover it? Why do they not blame the friends/family/or company in that instance? refer to: http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/moneyhappy/2643 it shows credit card debt is not to be blamed on q-star or systems, but yet the individual americans themselves.)
ItuneIBO:
When you hear stories about how LW and his wife were rummaging through the garbage and refusing to pay creditors, and some other couple not paying their electricity bill but they are all now rolling in cash, no one has to tell you to sacrifice whatever it takes, even if it means using credit cards, to make your business works, and then you'll reap so much later.
I've noticed this tactic of "nobody told you to do this or that," but be honest with yourself. Even if someone doesn't tell you to do something in those words, they can still pressure you. I, of course, take responsibility for my actions. I just wish someone had told me not to use my credit cards. Sins of omission can be just as bad as sins of commission. They knew that as a student, I had very limited income, but I was doing all this PV and traveling up and down. But you know, in all likelihood, like me, they were drinking the koolaid and probably think my sacrifices will reap great rewards.
To all pro-Q IBOs out there, I don't have a problem with the Quixtar business plan (aside from their tacit approval or at least tolerance of tool abuse), but the system is kind of cultish. I've always thought so, to different degrees at different times. And all these people saying the same thing about the tool kingpins may not be wrong. Just think about it.
Oh, and by the way, thanks for the link. But I remember not taking any outside financial advice seriously because my upline knows best, and anyway, Q is the key to freedom. Some big pins actually said they didn't care that their credit scores were bad because they could buy everything with cash. (Never bought it though.) Do you see how that would encourage folks to use credit cards?
Rara, thanks for the response. Unfortunately, this is something that does happen, and as you described it, it comes down to certain individuals saying it and it is not overall - from the corporation-advice. It is still important to note, however, that encouragement is not forcing you to do something (does a family, friend, college buddy, etc "encourage" or "pressure" you to go with them somewhere, or go out every night? they say, it will be worth it, who do you blame then?) furthermore, realize that there are many groups that are honorable enough, such as those I have been around, that highly discourage credit cards, and part of the first month-3 months is sitting down over finances and seeing how and from where this business can be funded and if a short term goal of controlling finances first is necessary. The more I see individuals in a money situation saying they can't afford it, it further confirms that people buy what they want to buy, and if buying a starbucks coffee, a sub sandwich for lunch, or any other random purchase is more important than funding your business (tools or no tools, it really doesnt matter in this discussion) then they will most likely not be successful in any business. (Please compare the "cult-like" activities to any church retreat, sunday morning service, sports camp, military morale building exercise, or big corporation morale building trip. You will find many, to all, are the same. Cult-like tactics does not a cult make)
I am sorry about the debt incured, and that the group I am around, would not have 'pressured' you like that, but i am sure it will be easy to take care of the debt over the next year with good fiscal responsibility.
A few thoughts/?s: how many people are "all these people"? (I contend it is about 10-12 regulars, with a few angry people coming in every now and then to the tune of max 50 a month) What number is enough, vs the number that are happy (and are not diamond, or even close) in the business where they are. And haven't tool systems been investigated? Haven't some of them even been brought to federal lawyers and members of the FTC? And most importantly, is it not optional to begin with?
(Ponder: can you truely get something for nothing? No. Then, is what you get proportional to what you gave to begin with? Please look at examples over the past century, since 1900, at business giants, what did they have to give up to get their success? Time and or Money. I do not advise credit, but money is going to play into ANY endeavor. 'conventional business owners', do you confirm this?)
My question: what does a diamond above a 1000PV person, who is receiving a cut of a $8 CD, have anything to do with the success/failure of that 1000PV person? (other than providing hope and support) If you admit that the business can be done without tools, can it not be done with tools? This might present a situation requiring a certain PV level to break even when on the whole system. So, take Xanadustic's claim that BWW system is $3000 a year, that is $250 a month, that income is the 1500PV level with good structure, or a 1000PV personal circle (in groups i'm with, however, 1500PV individuals make between $400, and $500). At this level, does it matter that a diamond is getting a cut of the CD? Honestly? (if 100-300-1000 PV circle is required, and like rara you are a student, can you not find members and clients? Creylish obviously proves it isnt difficult, when you actually work for it)
I contend the cut doesn't affect a person's business. If that 1000-1500PV requirement is true, then instead of preaching everyone go Diamond, the first action (which is highly evident within my group and LOS) is get to 1500PV within 5 months. If that DOES NOT happen, everything can be returned. I am sorry for all those that got mixed up under some ya-hoo out there, but there are honest and stable groups that truely help. Isn't that what Rich and Jay wanted? If so, then don't bury good teams behind the yahoo's, lift them up so you can change what some of you see as a terrible evil. A billion dollar, int'l enterprise is not going to crumble because you write angry words on a blog (it might if there are internal revenue issues... Enron... but, somehow I doubt that is the case.)
A problem that is presented without a solution is just a bigger problem.
What if Alticor was flooded with papers of the issues seen in the business (ex. tool flow) and everyone's solution for it (not, completely get rid of it, because that doesnt work) do you think then they would pay more attention to you, instead of having you on a page of 'q-star's response to internet critic' and possibly have law enforcement track your every move? Just a thought...
Intune,
My last word (I hope) is that, first of all, I believe the majority of common IBOs, like yourself, are good, honest, hardworking people. In fact, when I told my platinum I wanted to take a break, he even asked me whether I would like to stop my standing order CDs. So I believe the people in your group and mine are wonderful people who have been unknowingly sucked into an unbelievably corrupt system.
But, when the higher ups (diamonds and above) are getting the MAJORITY of their income from tools and then misrepresent that on stage, having the rest of us believe their lavish lifestyle is from Quixtar, don't you see a problem with that? What happened to integrity? I thought that was what the business was about -- integrity and family values.
It is not the fact that they are getting a cut off tools that is wrong (read my first post); it's the lies. Have you listened to or read Rich DeVos's "Directly Speaking." I listened to one of the talks and he basically called said the kingpins were milking the common IBO dry with tools that aren't essential. And by the way, he stated that the tools business is illegal. And have you read the Postma memos? You should.
I am on a very limited budget and was extremely frugal before the business. I hardly ever ate out and I had a relatively large (for my income) savings. I wasn't one of those people that would buy a $4 Starbucks coffee. i hardly ever buy anything apart from food. I've gone clothes shopping maybe once or twice in the last 12 - 18 months. You see the problem? When people give criticisms or objections to some of the practices in the business, I find that a lot of IBOs on this forum resort to questioning the person's character. I am sure you didn't mean to do that, but that's the line that has been fed to you.
I don't say that it's like a cult because of the freedom chant or even the extreme excitement at functions and rallies. The same thing happens at sports events and even at some churches. But my pastor does not tell me to listen to him and him alone. He encourages us to read outside info and know what's happening around us. He doesn't try to isolate me from my friends. I still have all my friends, and I am sure you do, but from the LEADERS it's often insinuated (and there are tapes out there that say it bluntly) that your true friends are and should be in the business. My church does not ask for unquestioned submission. In fact, I get a say as to what goes on and I've actually emailed my pastor about differing views I have from him. Unquestioned submission belongs only to God, and even He tolerated questions. I could go on and on, but I hope you get my point.
I am sure you appreciate your group. My group was great too--very nice, caring, and I'm sure, honest people, who gave all the advice you are giving. I firmly believe you cannot get something for nothing and that you can't make money without investing money. And I still firmly believe that the Quixtar business can work and is a great opportunity. I don't have a problem with them or that advice. I have a problem with giving my money to line some much higher up people's pockets. If you can't see the dishonesty in making a huge amount of your income from the system and then going on stage saying that Quixtar provided you with your lavish lifestyle, then I can't help you.
General advice to myself and all pro and anti-Q folks is in Proverbs 18:17: "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him." Evaluate both sides of the story; don't just listen to what your diamonds or the business critic said. Another saying goes, "There is no smoke without fire." And I can hardly see through the smoke.
I'm out.
Rara, and others with similar questions/concerns:
I did not intend any question of your character, and I apologize if that came off that way.
To support my knowledge of it, I have a firm grasp on: The postma memo, Directly Speaking, History of Ja-Ri/Amway/Nutrilite/MLMs/Qstar, Amway Law of 1979, the preceding investigation, lawyers on both sides, direct questions, answers with Emeralds and diamonds, and furthermore direct answers from questions with Qstar cust support and rules and regulations group.
Something to consider: there has not been another "directly speaking" in 20 years... why?
There has not been another federal investigation in 25 years... why? (And no, there is not an 'open FBI investigation on Qstar or Alticore' as Eric S. claims. Please push on with due diligence and contact Qstar directly, then Alticore, and furthermore the FBI. As the FBI information on Eric S. Anyone can write whatever they want right now on the web, it doesnt mean it is correct.)
I do not have a problem with (nor do the majority of people i ask have problems with) individuals getting paid for speaking, and getting paid for motivation. One day one and forward, tt has been told to me (and shown), DIRECTLY by an EMERALD that he, and all plat and above in the organization, DO make a cut of income from motivation (it is not a secret in my group). Up to my diamond (which honestly, is all I care about because above him, they really have no affect on me) disclosure has been given on income (with checks from Qstar) showing that motivation is not a 'majority' of his income. NOW, for the DDs to Crowns and what not, I can't say, and I am unaware of any current/updated (sept 1 1999 or later) case which fully discloses all income through qstar and a system. (and really, dont care) Why should their work/lack of work have any effect on this opportunity supplying my family security?
I have said it before, I find $7 of value in a CD, and thus, I keep buying them. IF someone wants them, and can't afford them, it is the RESPONSIBILITY (according to the rules in Qstar) that the upline help figure out how to solve the problem for the downline. (not SOLVE it, facilitate the process, within the rules provided) Next, it is the responsibility of all IBOs to do there due dilligence as a business owner, which includes reading the rules of your contract with Qstar, and specifically the lines about BSM and support organizations. The line that: an upline cannot force, or suggest it mandatory, to purchase these materials in exchange for training, is important. It is up to the IBOs to police themselves (this is clearly said in many locations on the qstar site and qstar response page). If you take people talking from stage as the end all answer, I am sorry for that. But, as is in many CDs and training, stage talks are general guidance, your team is specific guidance, and there are rules/regulations/code of ethics to monitor it all. Shopping cart method? (that might be 'tapespeak' but it is true. If you are not strong enough to use that method, how are you strong enough to lead 100s to 1000s of people?)
Luckily (i guess...) my organization polices itself. If yours doesnt, PLEASE don't rely on just the accounts of these out dated memo's and few people on these sites to completely sway your trust. If you think the opportunity is good, then seek out those LOSs (or LOAs) that fit what you see as right. When more focus is given to them, the ones doing it "right", then the business will become that moral place that it strives to be. Spite breeds contempt, and things get worse when people continue on out of spite. Critics fuel many IBOs because then the IBOs set out to 'prove them wrong' by doing exactly what the critics hate, even if the critics have a good point. Perhaps critics should balance it with constructive ideas, and they might make a difference?
About it being ethical: If you feel so strongly (to anyone) perhaps you should let the DSA know, and the form FTC lawyer that probably has seen the MOs too...
"To be a member of the DSA, every company must pledge to abide by a code of ethics, and that is administered through an independent lawyer, formerly with the Federal Trade Commission and Consumer Protection Bureau, whose job it is to protect consumers and distributors from any abuse by our member companies"
-Neil Offen, Pres. CEO of DSA
I dont think you can hide payouts or 'outrageous claims, or more so 'cult like activity' from them...
Rara,
I too was in teh biz. I was told many times that no one made money off tools. If I was told about it, I would not have a problem with a small profit. However, it appears that fortunes are being made off tools, which is why oneof our upline diamonds (who was diamond for 5 years or so) was buying a jet to fly to functions, and said he paid it off in cash, and that all the money was from amway (quixtar).
Well, now we know the truth. The tools profits are more than likely a cash cow, which is why our LOS (WWDB) told us to buy excessive amounts of tapes and seminar tickets, and to trust them, we would "learn" our way to diamond.
Rara> We are all being brainwashed. It started before we were born, and will continue until our deaths. Being aware that everyone out there wants you to think and act "their way" provides you with a little protection. Be aware of what you allow your mind to absorb.
Yep, those diamonds slowly program your mind for you.
Dead or broke by 65.
We make very little from tapes.
Do what we do, don't ask questions
Attend ALL functions
Buy more tools
Don't associate with family/friends who don't like quixtar.
Sounds like a cult.
How about the television, newspaper, radio? Don't forget about your pastors, friends at school/work, politicians... Brother, the list goes on and on.
I have not seen any school of learning pay back to students when they graduate...
BWW is the only school, which offers to pay back after reaching certain level...
Even if BWW does not pay back, that is fine, since schools are not suppose to pay back...
Your payback from school is you are able to be knowledgeable and your chances of getting a higher paying job is better than a non college grad.
By the way, exactly how does BWW "pay you back"? I don't know anyone who boasted about a BWW check.
I agree with this post. However, when it comes to the term "motivational movement", I have a question.
Do you think motivation itself is not necessary, or the cost of the motivation (the desire of a "kingpin" to make the bulk of their money off of providing motivational information) is the issue?
Posted by: Tex | February 6, 2006 1:18 PM