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January 30, 2006
Monday Reader Mail: 72
By QBlog in Reader Mail
Not much else I can say to this Reader Mail besides "you're welcome."
name: Sarah
date: January 28, 2006
message: I'm sure you get tons of messages like the one about to send, but I have to. My husband and I were recently showed "the plan". I listened to the cds, and I was ready...woohoo...I am going to be rich.
Then I started thinking about all the questions we had...that were being avoided...every single one of them shows up your blog. You're insights are exactly what we are worried about.
Thank you so much for starting this and keeping it running. We have a second meeting tonight with our "sponsors" or "upline" tonight...and I can't wait to present these concerns to them. I will write more about what I find out.
I know that you are not trying to persuade anyone in either direction, you are just posting your opinions, and the truth, which is a whole lot more than I am getting from these people we just met a month ago who would like to be "our lifelong friends" in this wonderful "business". I cannot thank you enough.
Sarah
Comments
"Then I started thinking about all the questions we had...that were being avoided"
NO! Surely they wouldn't avoid questions. What is there to avoid with the best business opportunity in the world period! They wouldn't be hiding anything would they? HMMMMMM??
Reminds me of the commercial...
"OH NO! Lost another one to Ditech!!"
Uplines around the world will be saying - "OH NO! Lost another one to QBLOG!"
Ask them for the w-2 form.
Ask them how much you need to invest in tapes,books and functions, and what percentage do they get?
Hi Sarah,
If you get a chance, try to find out which organization these people are in. It might be "The TEAM", "Britt Wold Wide" (BWW), "World Wide Dream Builders" (WWDB), "INA" or something like that. Also try to find out who some of the big pins are. A lot of the regulars on this blog would be curious to find out. Thanks.
Scott N.
Hi everyone,
Thank you for the comments..and thanks to Eric...(didn't know I would make it onto his blog..LOL.) I don't know who the team is..they have only mentioned some first names. If you are interested, I am going to go to the forum and try to relay to you all what our second meeting consisted of. The ditech comment was great by the way!
Ok, i just had to put something up again. My last post received no comments (which is good with such wolves out there to attack every little post there is)
I am sick of reading posts over and over "I lost 20K" "It was awful for marraige" "It was shrouded in secrecy" Seriously people. I am currently in this business, and have been in this business for a while. (Imran: "o wow haven't heard that before") Have I done much directly with it, no. My group is small, and my monthly checks are nothing to write home about, but get this: even with SOT, extra cd a week, and about 3 more CDs on top of that a month, every open meeting, every function (traveling over 10 hours to get there in a bus) I have STILL MANAGED to reduce my debt from college by 25% (started at 49000 all combined, and is now below 34000) Am I proud of the debt, hell no, but I am just one of hundreds in my LOS that, even without earth-shattering PV check income, has managed to develop good financial responsibility, grow physically, spiritually and mentally with selected mentors (Yes, we dont "assign" sponsors as mentors, you mentor with the person that will help you the most) I do not avoid questions by prospects, i have scoured: this site, AmQuix, Quixtar-sucks, blakey memo, history of Amway/JaRi/Nutrilite/LOC, Amway Law of 1979, Member client rule, LOS integrity laws, 180 day refund policy, and many other documents including scientific product research, patents, and national/global awards that many of you "critics" discount as information that is only important if Scott Larson or Eric Schiebler deem it necessary.
Now, you hardened (well i would say "Vets" but that would be a degradation of the noble word of being a veteran in wars to protect this country) hardened... virtual fighters who make it your daily goal to attack a post, or raise up a "proven" case that Q-star doesn't work... you will just discount this as another "Blind, q-bot, tool entrenched, poor fool" trying to put something positive up. And, I dont care. You have done nothing, and will do nothing, to help me, my family, or my country. You are not soldiers fighting here or abroad. You are not priests/pastors helping give hope to hopeless, you are not business leaders/CEO's who take flak daily to secure a large company to protect the jobs they can, and provide a service to society, you are not the charity workers that help the helpless, and, given by the many posts i see up from the repeating fighters (truth, dmm, Aziz, etc) you aren't even good coworkers and parents. For every negative you spread here, a residual is embeded deep within yourself, and will seep out to those around you in times when it could hurt them the most. (no, this is not something i "got from the business", so don't patronize it as merely a "q-bot" statement. Refer to any spiritual or philosophical text on karma, negative, sowing-reaping, anything!)
So, do i feel sorry for those who "lost it all in Q-Star" to the point that i feel sorry for someone who flushes 100's down the toilet as they look at it and ask "why does it go away when i press the little handle"
Get your money back if it is within 180 days, figure it out before then. Dont just go by what someone says, look at their checks, discuss their financial stability. And see if they have friends outside the business. I do, so does everyone in my LOS up to my upline Diamond. We have met them, they come to picnics. It isn't a bad thing to not be in a business for yourself, just like it is not bad to NOT be in business for yourself. It is bad that you sit here and take the, how many, probably 400 "cases" of people not making it over the 3 years of the blog and claim that it never works. for every one of those, i can give you 50 cases where, even if they didnt hit a big pin, they still had a positive, rewarding experience from the association and events surounding this business and many of the LOS's. It's just that 49 1/2 of the 50 will not take the time to even read these posts much less respond. I do take it upon myself to check these every 3 weeks or so, just to get a pulse. and to see if there are any new regulars. (i count 20 total, between this blog and regulars on AmQuix and others in this ring of sites) 20 people passionate against this business is nothing compared to the army of individuals that are perfectly fine with the way the business is, or know that a phone call/e-mail away is an individual who will take your suggestion and will follow up with you. Of course, i could go into a lot more, but as Imran says "nothing that any other IBO hasn't brought up before" meaning, you really have no argument against anything but tools, and even that you only have individual complaints about money they WILLINGLY GAVE somebody and WILLINGLY DENIED the refund policy put in place. AND without the complete knowledge of the true structure of the current tool system (Which is not the same as it was in 1983) But, to a cynic, no sum of information, for something, no matter how large, you will never be convinced that it is ok, you will then attack the grammar, just to say "Ha, I'm right and you're wrong" and when the dust settles, you realize you are entertaining a crowd of one, yourself, and have done nothing with the time you spent tirelessly spinninig away after your own agenda.
And Eric, first, i do support this website when talking to my fellow IBOs and others that it was an attempt at an unbiased look at Quixtar, unfortunately, it did not remain such. I saved your MP3 talking to the Amway lawyer. When people bring up your website, which they do, i can use that as a representation of you, and your character. It was dissappointing. You're vehement refusal to even cooperate kindly with the lawyer and your attempt to turn around the conversation (E: "I am asking you a question...your refusal to answer my question is neither cooperating or not cooperating..." roughly translated from about 8 min into the conversation) although your attempt at an "unbiased perception" was valiant, it has been tainted with the sours of individuals such as dmm and others. Any attempt you had at biographies, or whatever push you had a while back, failed due to the violently negative responses of these individuals. Releasing any good information to these people is like giving them a very sharp, well made knife saying "this is an incredibly useful and durable tool, it can help in all manners of life" then someone like dmm picks it up, stabs somebody, and makes the claim that they are deadly and should be banned from all society.
Everyone reading, judge for yourself. I hand you the knife, do with it what you will. If you take it and put holes in your arm, i will not be held liable. But if you use it to craft one of the most beautiful peieces of wooden art ever imagined, it will be a work you and many generations will forever be grateful for. You will always have those that say "it was luck" "o it isnt real" etc etc, but remember:
The cynic is one who never sees a good quality in a man, and never fails to see a bad one. He is the human owl, vigilant in darkness and blind to light, mousing for vermin, and never seeing noble game.
-Henry Ward Beecher
Good day.
Wow. Somebody needs a hug.
So Brad, what is your point?
Most critics will acknowledge that the average IBO is a nice person, but one whose mind has been controlled by upline to believe things that may not be true.
The conflicts between IBO's and critics (IMO) is that IBO's seem to think that no one can accomplish anything significant
or succeed financially (or in marriage) without quixtar. That just isn't true.
In fact, while I may be working at my church on Sundays, IBO's are attending functions. Who's contributing more to the community?
Also, no one that I know of doesn't doubt that some quixtarians make a lot of money, but having one or two rich guys with a group of hundreds losing money does not equate to success in my opinion, especially when the 1-2 rich guys are creating their wealth due to their downline's jobs.
Some rare people run quixtar as a retail business, as it was intended and I have no problem with that. It's the people selling tapes and function tickets that are the problem. They make millions off tapes and functions under the guise that they are teaching you to run a quixtar business, but the lack of success for so many makes it a bad deal.
If it works for you and you don't mind paying for tools, I have no problem with that either.
Brad,
You made some pretty strong accusations about the character of the critics. I have tape after tape after tape of the leaders in this business and it all boils down to manipulation. Now, what do YOU about ME? How negative am I? What are my influences? I have have done my fair share of PROVING my point on my site. I will leave it to you to prove yours.
I acknowledge that the average IBO is a nice guy, but they are deluded into believing success through this model. When I confronted a person on another MLM, he tried everything he could to justify what he did. He is a Christian (I know him well) but he was taken in by a lie. He had to face solid facts about how many people succeed in the business and for the first time, he realized how many empty promises were made to him, but not to lose face, he tried every way possible to JUSTIFY what he was doing.
Brad, you have, as Angelo Nardone says, a firm grip on an empty sack. The average IBO makes $115 a month, the systems (if you are involved) are over $300 a month, and only a small handful of people will ever make it to a profitable place.
If it were really about helping other people succeed, I have a detailed plan on how to make the MO's safe and low cost, but that is not done because there is too much money to be made.
X
People willingly go to Job, and willingly put money in 401ks.
No one should complain about that.
Quick question for the Canadian readers: "401k"s are named after a section in the IRS code which is U.S. Law. Does Canada have something similar to 401ks? And if so, what are they called? Just curious.
Brad> Everyone reading, judge for yourself. I hand you the knife, do with it what you will. If you take it and put holes in your arm, i will not be held liable. But if you use it to craft one of the most beautiful peieces of wooden art ever imagined, it will be a work you and many generations will forever be grateful for. You will always have those that say "it was luck" "o it isnt real" etc etc, but remember:
Joecool18> That's the problem Brad. If quixtar is a knife, then dexter yager, bill britt, greg duncan and other kingpins are stabbing thousands if not millions of people over the years.
Brad said "Dont just go by what someone says, look at their checks"
NO, ask for a profit/loss statement looking at their checks means nothing.
Brad said "AND without the complete knowledge of the true structure of the current tool system (Which is not the same as it was in 1983)"
Please share with us the stucture of the current system, particularly how the profits from the sale of tools is distributed.
Thanks for sharing.
Wow. In one post I'm accused of being a bad worker, father and a detriment to society. Not bad for someone who hasn't posted in a few weeks.
Seriously, you have zero idea of who I am, Brad, what I do, and what kind of person I am. Yet you seem to think you know everything about me from a handful of reply posts on a blog and a message board. Seems to me you are a bit delusional and have a skewed view of the world. I would never assume I know everything about a person from a few posts online. To do so would be silly. Yes I might ascertain someone is either pro AmQuix or anti, whether he/she is plugged in or not and maybe what sports teams he/she likes, but unless they volunteer more personal information, I simply don't assume.
And this is not the first time someone has filled in my life story with extremely limited information. Sorry Brad, but you got me 100% wrong. I'm happily married and have been with the same woman for well over a decade. I have a beautiful daughter and consider myself a bit of an entrenpenuer, though my last business venture was a complete and utter failure. Don't worry about me, though, as I landed on my feet, got a great job and took a lot of positive and lessons from my failure.
You see, Brad, I'm a bottom line guy. And bottom line is profit and loss, not just profit (don't just look at checks, but expenses as well). Bottom line, I've never seen AmQuix work as outlined in the plan unless someone builds a large group of people who are spending significantly more then they make. There are a few who do AmQuix properly and retail, but they never make the big bucks (though they do tend to be profitable). I've asked dozens of IBO's to "Show me the money!" and not a single one has shown irrefutable proof. They skirt the issue showing checks without expenses, charts that are pure speculation and theory, and pictures of people standing in front of huge mansions with fancy cars. That is not irrefutable proof, especially when on the other side of the equation are people like Scott Larson, Eric Scheibeler, and Ruth Carter.
So, Brad, I'll ask you too. Assuming you are an American, tax time is here. What will it say on your Schedule C's bottom line? What about your downline, and what about your upline? And no, I do not want your personal information. Black all that out, please. I just want to see, in terms of numbers, how your business is doing.
Got to go now. I'm late for kicking my dog, cheating on my wife and generally causing havoc for the local authorities! :)
Quick response to what has been written thus far.
porkchop: thanks for the worthless comment
Jcool 1st post: What's my point? People sit in these forums and bash a business opportunity with the INTENT to give people "the truth" so they do not participate in it. Their side, their vengeance, their anger is not "the truth" Their example of failure is again, not the truth. (Once again, not from a CD, this was taught to me in highschool through the vast leadership training, positions i held, and high character adult leaders i learned from. People must hold themselves accountable for their own actions and consequences). Also, i never make the claim you cannot do well financially, spiritually, in marriage or whatever outside of Quixtar, nor does anyone say that on my team. HOWEVER I will not say that this opportunity cannot help many people find those things easier than other opportunities available in the US (Conventional business, stocks, real estate, etc). Look around you: are the majority of people truly happy, living to their potential, doing all they can to make their life and their family's life the best it can be? NO, they dont work out or eat healthy (they are laxy and they will die early) they dont do all they can to get that raise (1st if that's what they want to do 2nd: because it is ok, the guy next to them didnt do it either) they are not actively researching their options in this country (Because they are flat out lazy, and settle for what they have because "o, it's not too bad, at least i'm not that bad" as they point to a poor, sad individual who has lost all hope)
X: 1st) functions are 4 times a year. Ever overslept church? Had another event to go to? Weekend retreat, or vacation perhaps? 4 times out of 52 is hardly 'not participating' or 'not helping' your church. (did you give over $150,000+ to your church in offering like some of my upline did this year...?) 2nd) i pay $54 a month for my standing order, and $38 for my Kate, which i use for all communication purposes. Add that up, it isn't even $100. THEN if you want to REALLY get into it, add $295 for 100pts of products (yes, i do purchase it for that low, and yes, i do enjoy everything i buy and use it up well before the end of the month, and yes, that does include shipping.) i am spending $400 a month that i wouldnt spend otherwise. Now, wait a tick... wouldnt i be contributing $400 a month to an IRA, or corporate 401k or equivalent anyway? yeah, most likely. Well, hell, why dont i just do this? I get mentorship, i have people to ask questions about investing, real estate, finances, marriage, anything!!!!!!!! AND, o yeah, i can take tax breaks, make money, and help people. HUM... let me think... $1000's in the hole huh? give me a break.
(o, and guess what, i have a plan to make Target, and Banana Republic, and Louis Vuitton affordable as well, do you honestly think they want to hear it? NO!! profit is what makes things worth doing. Remove that, why do it? intrinsic factor? intrinsic factor doesnt make coach purses, makeup, clothes, food...)
Imran: refer to the 401k discussion above. If you cant complain about me giving that money to a stock market, or real estate, why are you bitching so much that i am willingly, and with profit potential, current tax breaks, and mentorship, doing it this way? I do not have to do with my money what you think is "approved" or "appropriate" thanks.
JoeCool post 2: You missed the point. i dont care what you compare Qstar to, if you chose a knife great. But remember, it is in YOUR hand. None of those people have ever come to me and said "Buy the tools" i will say, if i didnt have the tools, i would not have the group i have, as small as it is. They have helped me grow and search outside myself (and, uh oh, outside the business too!!) for growth opportunities and ways to set myself up for a good future, and ways that i can take care of my family.
Finally, VM: please refer to past posts of another passionate IBO, Chris, who is a lot more well versed than I am who has talked about profit/loss (no, i do not know him). I could give you all the numbers in the world, and it wouldnt matter. besides, i will be happy if next year, i can say that i made $1 profit. Because i wrote off that much entertainment, vehicle use, office space, supplies, travel, etcetc by merging life and business. (legally of course, anyone reading this, please check with a certified accountant or tax preparer about appropriate tax breaks and the way they can be applied to your business, and, if applicable, corporate structure) and the current tools: briefly, Platinums receive a majority of the profit margin on the groups orders, because they are the ones directly ordering the tools and must PERSONALLY handle returns within the 180-day window. They use this money to deal with that. above that, the profit is split in equal ratios for every other pin, from Emerald to CAM (0.25 per CD for everyone, or 0.35, or however it works out). now, do i care if AMI gets a cut of profit? HELL NO, i want them to keep making CDs. Does FranklinCovey make profit? How bout Kiyosaki? How bout their publishers? Distributors? Storage Facilities? How bout Maya Angelou? (for all those that hate "motivational speakers") or Stephen King? Please, step off. there is nothing you can say, by standing outside the arena, to PROVE that this system is anything but an equal opportunity for those who wish to take the challenge upon themselves. (uh oh, the catch. Yes i said it, the INDIVIDUAL must put forth some effort, and if they dont like their sponsors, if they dont like the tools, if they dont like the business, they can change it, and for those that are not weak, they can walk up to their sponsors and say "I do not want to do this give me money back" that's all it takes. can everyone do that? no. Just like in war, i do not want a pansy sitting next to me in a foxhole who, when the time comes and i might have my life threatened by direct fire, sits there and says "well, i just dont know if i can pull the trigger...")
And finally, who really thinks that the 2-5 year thing is impossible? 2-5 years is 6 figures, and enough to not work anymore. If that is you, i have a challenge: i will do it, and i have even been in a year already, so you have the advantage. Have Eric pass on my e-mail address.
That is all.
And, to DMM who was writing at the same time:
You are always very thorough, and it is a good quality. (no sarcasm).
Now, quickly, blanket references to who you are, yes, they are blanket and yes, they can be wrong, but what was your daughter doing when you post? or read through all this? that 30 minutes could be very valuable to her. And have blanket references been made to me too, yes. Fact still remains: nothing beyond this negativity will you provide for me, my family, my future, my friend, my business, anything. So, you truly have no right to cut my business suppliers down. I don't come to your businesses, or workplaces, and cut down anything that seems unfair, or out of the ordinary.
And, the "put up or shut up" thing that is such a theme, i provided my challenge. Just like dental school takes 4 plus years, Med school takes 4-8 years, law school, PhD, etcetc... this is a 2-5 year plan. I am in year 1 and 1 month. Would you ask a med student in their first month of their second year how much they make? profit loss? How bout even a year out of college? no they are in debt.
But here, our plan, which can be seen on the site, show's FTC numbers claiming (with no guarantee) that in 2-5 years you can create an income stream of $150,000 a year. My challenge is i will do that. Those ARE the checks. Nothing in the plan does it say "After all your chosen expenses, and other things that you find "necessary' that really might not be, you will be guaranteed $150,000" I do say, however, that at this level, within the 2-5 year window, i will be able to fully support myself, my family, and my business off of this income.
i will do this following the system, with tool purchases, attending business seminars. legally, morally and ethically, with no one in my business leaving without the appropriate refund or anything else.
So, you're taking me up on it?
And in your case, we can also compare your business's schedule C to mine. How bout that?
Brad > "(did you give over $150,000+ to your church in offering like some of my upline did this year...?)"
Scott N > Brad, I realize this isn't the main point in your posts, but I must take exception to it. What a person gives to his/her church, synagogue, or mosque is a private matter between the individual and God. There's a famous passage in one of the gospals where a widow puts three pennies in the collection plate. Jesus praises her because she gave everything she had. Elsewhere - I think in the Sermon on the Mount - Jesus cautions against calling attention to one's pious deeds because that is all the reward that person will ever get. I became a Baha'i in 1989. In our faith, what an individual gives is a private matter between the individual and God. It should, however, involve some level of sacrifice and be within the individual's means. Contributing to one's Faith is a privilege. God is sufficiently wealthy that He doesn't need our money.
Brad,
No one is saying that people don't succeed in quixtar. Certainly there are some very wealthy people. The problem is that the few success stories do not justify the legions of people who lose money. We might as well advertise for the lottery, at least there is always a winner. We could portray their wealth, much like how a diamond portrays a lifestyle attained by selling tools instead of their quixtar income.
Average diamond earns about $150K. How can they purchase mansions, aircraft and fleets of expensive cars, and travel the world? Can you say tools money? So they
get rich selling you motivation to build the quixtar business?
Think about it, the concept of buy from yourself and teach others to duplicate. Do you really believe you can buy your way to prosperity? And how does one use $295 in quixtar products each month? How much
concentrated soap/cleaning products can you go through? The only way to do that 100 PV is to used highly overpriced vitamins.
The bottom line as DMM says, can you show that your group is profiting after deducting their expenses? My guess is no, unless you are a rare exception.
Brad Said : "Finally, VM: please refer to past posts of another passionate IBO, Chris, who is a lot more well versed than I am who has talked about profit/loss (no, i do not know him)."
I know what a profit loss statement is, I wasn't asking for an explaination. Anyone who tells you to look at the checks for proof is giving you bad advise.
Thanks for the details on the tool system, can you compare it to how it was in '83?
Thanks for sharing.
Brad,
If you can't tell the difference between putting $400/mo into a 401k or IRA vs. spending $400/mo on Quixtar junk, then truly nothing I can offer will be above 'worthless.'
BTW, 'mentorship' on all matters from real estate, investing, marriage, 'tax-breaks'...doesn't sound like much of an 'individual' effort.
Also, has your bottom line suddenly gone from 'profit' to 'profit potential?' At 1 year and 1 month, you must be well on your way.
Brad,
What on EARTH were you replying to with your comments toward me? I am puzzled. I am not suggesting that you go to church every single sunday out of legalism. I am talking about solid doctrine and the TRUTH. I don't care what who gives. If Osama Bin Laden gave $150,000 to my church, I would not praise him for his Christian conduct. I am speaking on matters of doctrinal soundness, something that I have NEVER seen exhibited in BWW or WWDB to be sure, other groups are likely just as bad. If you are part of those groups and think I am wrong, send me a tape and I will tell you what is wrong with it.
Now, you pay $54 for SOT and $38 for kate. If that is all, you are not doing the 9 core steps. Here is the monthly breakdown:
SOT - $30
BOM - $12
Functions (3 opens, 1 training, and the weekend functions/rallys divided to a per month basis) - $50 (per person) + travel, food, lodging
Kate - $31
One Domain - $22.2
Total - $145 + food, travel, and lodging.
THESE ARE THE THEORETICAL BARE MINIMUM
Reality places this cost much higher
My average first year was $272.62 per month
Second - $219.65
Third - $228.15
These are for a single person.
Now, you talk about $295 for products. Give me a product list and I am sure I can come up with a yearly plan at over $100 less per month. I know the prices of Q and local stores, there is no comparison, Quixtar is drastically overpriced.
You say, "I get mentorship, i have people to ask questions about investing, real estate, finances, marriage, anything!!!!!!!!"
I ask, are these people QUALIFIED to give such advice?
I want to infiltrate a Quixtar function and distribute the pitiful statistics on people who have actually made a success of their Amway/Quixtar business (like, 0.84% I think, at least according to Sidney Schwartz) Can anyone tell me where I might find one of these meetings in the DC area, where I'm on business right now? I'm out in Northern Virginia specifically and there are like a billion hotels out here, so there must be a function going on somewhere. And no, I don't have anything better to do with my time. I get back to my hotel at the end of the day and stare at the television set. I'm getting cabin fever and want to explore around but I want to do something crazy in an area with little more than office buildings, malls and hotels.
How can you compare this to a 401k. I have been putting about 400-600 dollars a month in my company 401k. Along with my companies donations and yearly 401k bonus I have about 80k in the bank.
Yes, comparing quixtar to a 401K is a bad example. 401K allows you to recure your future. While quixarians think that quixtar does the same, more likely the business expenses are draining their future resources.
Hey Chris,
Regarding your question about infiltrating ;-) Quixtar meetings. Go to the official Quixtar website, and register there indicating interest in becoming an IBO. Quixtar will send out your e-mail address to a local IBO who will then contact you to show you the plan. Obviously, you have to show a lot of interest ;-) and ask a lot of questions during the plan presentation. Chances are you will be invited to attend an 'Open Meeting', and you will be asked to wear 'Business Attire', aka a Suit. Dress as sharp as you can, because if you are dressed in jeans or something casual, they will use that against you. "Look at that guy, he's dressed so unprofessionally, and he thinks he can ask us questions?" If you have a BrooksBrothers/RalphLauren/Hermes (one with the logo/crest that clearly identifies the brand) tie, be sure to flaunt ;-) it. I usually protest when the guy tells me that a suit is required, but then I show up dressed to the hilt. And I always have my Rolex on my wrist when I go to these meetings. I make it a point to wear a Hermes/BrooksBrthrs tie with the logo splattered all over it, a french-cuff shirt, and make sure that my cuff-links and watch can be seen clearly.
Hey, you don't want those snooty Diamonds to accuse you of not being successful just because you are not in Quixtar ;-)....
At the meeting. Show enough enthusiasm that they put you closest to the front row. This way, you will get a chance to question the speaker directly after the presentation. Don't let the guy get away with evasions, or suggestions to ask the question to the guy who invited you. Insist that he answer it from the stage. Taunt him a little. "Why don't you answer it? Are you afraid of the truth?" He might tell you again to ask the question to the guy who invited you. Tell him that you want him to answer the question from the stage, so that all the people including the new prospects sitting in the front row can know the TRUTH. This line is usually pretty disconcerting ;-) for the speaker. Keep badgering him. Don't let him off the hook. Ask him about the ongoing FBI investigation of the company. Chances are he will ask you, "Do you know who Mother Teresa is". DON'T answer that question. Tell him NOT to change the subject, and insist that he answer your question.
By this time, the IBOs standing the in the back of the room will have started booing you in a concerted effort to drown your voice out. Be prepared to shout a little. Most likely, by this time the whole meeting will be in a shambles and they will start packing up their white-board and stuff.
Have fun.
There is no doubt that the average 401k plan will outperform the average Q income. Not enough people are doing enough to fund their 401s either. People need to educate themselves and dedicate themselves to a sound disciplined investing style. This excludes get-rich-quick schemes.
Brad alot of your former cohorts have offered to post the W2-ScheduleC on this site. I would most impressed if you had the gumption to do so. I for one would love to track your progress from 1year to your 5 year goal. That's just one post a year YOUR NUMBERS WOULD BE ALL THE TALK YOU NEED.
Before you do it let me tell you this. I have an old friend doing what you are doing. He is in year 4 and his focus has moved from making money to helping people. We all know this is a croc because he still isn't making enough money to prove anyone wrong. So lets be sure to keep that lame excuse out of your annual ScheduleC postings. Other than that GOOD LUCK
I remember some late nite meetings where an IBO told our direct he had been trying very hard and had been doing all the core steps but nothing has happened. The direct told him that the money will eventually be there but more importantly, the business is about friendships and not money.
And I thought "Oh really", I wouldn't have signed up to make friends.
Hello Again,
First, regarding the topic ScottN brought up: I do truely apologize for the way that came across, and you are completely corrrect. To X regarding that as well: I, in error, posted it to you when it was in reference to JoeCool's mention of church. I apologize for that too. Give what you can to your church, charity, etcetc, and yes, it is your own deal. To Joe, though, the intent of the response still stands: functions are 4 times a year, and honestly, i have seen more church involvement come from the association with the people in my group than i have ever seen before, no matter where i have lived in the country.
Now, to the other topics: The big one, a 401k
Here's the point everyone: You are currently gambling with your money that the stock market (or your company that merely EMPLOYS you) will grow on average 5-12% between now and when you are 59 1/2. And to Jim: I knew of many people that had 401k's and investments well above $80K in '99 and '00... but where are they now? THAT is the point. You are not guaranteed that money any more than Qstar guarantees that $150,000 a year is possible in 2-5 yrs. (NO, this is NOT get-rich-quick, and if you are still arguing that, honestly you do not have a place on this blog with it (IMO) because this blog has been taken beyond that discussion) risk is involved on either side, and past performance in the market DO NOT determine future trends. ANY truthful financial advisor will tell you that (even as much as they look to the past to figure it out)
Listen to this: "If you want to try to guess on some companies, buy their stock, and hope it goes up, you might as well go to Vegas, because you have no advantage at all" - Mark Cuban, in reference to views of and lessons from Warren Buffett. Now, are any of you at their level? If you are, then i will weigh your market credibility with theirs. Until then, think about it. Unless you OWN the company, you do not have CONTROL of the company and its success or failure. The key is "NO ADVANTAGE" as in, it could be done, but it isnt any better than other things out there. as Mark Cuban states (and 100s to 1000s of other, SUCCESSFUL and CREDIBLE people say): the stock market, for the small investor (that is all of us) is gambling.
Now (to pull back a little bit), for some people, the 401k and stock/bond investments is something they should look into. Because, it could be, after all, passive compared to active income, and something is better than nothing. I do not stand in front of friends that wish to invest that way, just as they dont stand in front of me when i invest my way. I want my retirement before 59 1/2 (therefore, i will not do a 401k or IRA UNLESS i am being matched up to some percentage, then it is a total win, free money, pretty much everyone should take that) and, i want control of what happens to my money. Right now, even to all of your disbelief, i have that. I can do with the books/cds what i wish (use them, learn from them, throw them away, return them, whatever) and i can retail any of my products (just like when i was drinking one, someone tried it, and i sell it at over the IBO price for profit) and i can look for leaders for the team (yes, my team is selective, and no, you dont have to be at a pin level to get noticed or helped)
Worst case scenario, for all you oh-so-optimistic types, i do not succeed, what is the difference between this lack of success and dmm's attempt, and failure, at a business? O right, the tools huh? Well, would it have been better i try to be a hardware store owner? Would that get a pat on the back? How about giving that money for tools to the: real estate agent, window people, tile installers, delivery folks, suppliers of wood, products to sell, cashiers desks, uniforms, computers, or perhaps the schooling on how to do accounting for an inventory loaded/employee manned business? Ok, i think i have made my point about tools. Fact is, upon not succeeding, JUST LIKE DMM, i would get up, see that i am not even 30 yet, and say "ok, i have 29 1/2 years to go, what to try next" is that so hard to comprehend?
For those that crash functions: i do hope one day you come into one of my meetings. I am fully prepared for it. I do hope you have proof of your statistics and claims, beacuse i carry a binder with proof of mine that i use in a meeting or with anybody on the team. And no "designer suit" or "rolex" will impress me. The way and true person of character carries him, or her, -self blasts through any fancy cover you place over it. (This is not an attack at any group or individual, just at the statement that you must dress in incredibly expensive clothes to gloat or whatever. but still good to think about. Remember, the clothes you wear are to show the respect to those you wear it in front of, and should not be for your own motives, or gains.)
Regarding Relationships in business: the intent behind your platinum (which, to respectful people, intent is what should be highlighted most, not a misstep of word choice) was that relationships is what is most important, and in the long run, most stable and profitable in business, any business. NO you dont make money OFF the relationship (that's called marriage or dowry... j/k) Relationships are built as the most important thing. Support, respect, etc. And here, read this book: The Southwest Airline Way: "The Southwest Airline Way examines how the company uses high-performance relationships to create enormous competitive advantage in motivation, teamwork, and coordination among employess." Now, if you want to argue against relationships, please set up a time with Herb Kelleher, and perhaps his Board of Directors, and plead your case that friendships are not the foundation. Get back to me on that!
Finally, Fu, the only taker on the challenge. Please e-mail me (eric should have my address), and we can outline the rules (yes, my business, my rules) and a legally binding contract will be set up, with worthwhile payments/compensation to the successful party upon the end of the 5 years, or completion of said result, whichever comes first. I will not post to this forum, just as Eric J would not give information to the lawyer because the lawyer had no proof who he was. I do not know all who will come through here and what they will do with information. I am confident Eric J would agree to keeping this information controlled.
O and regarding your buddy... i am qualified in parachuting, and one time i was up in the plane, a fellow jumper went out, his main chute didnt open, so he had to use his reserve, thankfully that worked. So... i had a choice: trust in the chute i knew was packed correctly and jump anyway, or look at him and doubt the own work that i supervised? I jumped, and had a wonderful landing. Other's success or failure has no value when i see my success on the horizon and i am creating the path to get there.
Have a good day everyone.
BRAD SAID>> For those that crash functions: i do hope one day you come into one of my meetings. I am fully prepared for it. I do hope you have proof of your statistics and claims, beacuse i carry a binder with proof of mine that i use in a meeting or with anybody on the team. And no "designer suit" or "rolex" will impress me. The way and true person of character carries him, or her, -self blasts through any fancy cover you place over it. (This is not an attack at any group or individual, just at the statement that you must dress in incredibly expensive clothes to gloat or whatever. but still good to think about. Remember, the clothes you wear are to show the respect to those you wear it in front of, and should not be for your own motives, or gains.)
Brad,
Man, you are a little too serious ;-) for your own good. Boy, that earnest tone is kinda endearing ;-))..... Porkchop was right, you do need a hug!!
Sorry, sorry, I couldn't resist ;-)....
The "Rolex" and the "Designer Suit" was not used for the motivations that you ascribed to me. I have seen many IBOs and Quixtar apologists on these critical blogs make comments to the effect that unless you are successful/wealthy in your own right, you have no business bashing Quixtar, irrespective of the validity of your argument. I once had a smart-aleck IBO sitting in the back-row, ask me "He drives a Mercedes. What car do you drive?", after I started asking the speaker questions. His implication was that the speaker was successful, and I was not (which he had NO idea of knowing), so I had no right to question the speaker. (I of course, retorted that the speaker bought his Mercedes by ripping him off)
You see where I am going with this? After that, every time I crashed a meeting, I made it a point to flaunt my "Rolex" and my "Designer Suit" ;-)).....
Brad, comparing an investment into a 401K versus quixtar is ridiculous. Investing in a solid company that may pay dividends and show growth is a solid way to secure your retirement. Sure the market goes up and down, I lost money in 1999 - 2000 but my account has recovered since then and I have made back the losses. Also, you assume that people invest solely in high risk investments. Part of my porfolio is guaranteed interest and bonds.
Also, there are thousands if not millions who have made a nice nest egg investing in a 401K.
How many diamonds are there 100? 200?
That paints a picture in itself.
Brad this is what I said
Brad alot of your former cohorts have offered to post the W2-ScheduleC on this site. I would most impressed if you had the gumption to do so. I for one would love to track your progress from 1year to your 5 year goal. That's just one post a year YOUR NUMBERS WOULD BE ALL THE TALK YOU NEED.
I never said anything about disclosing any of my information to you. THE BURDEN OF PROOF ISN'T ON ME
If you want to show the world that it can be done (we already know that 1 in 14,000 actually go diamond) then you can do so by posting your stuff to QBLOG.
I cannot speak for QBLOG but I think he will be discreet as always and not show any private personal information of yours.
If you want to back up your claim and show that you can defy the odds then GO FOR IT
I think it will be compelling to see your efforts play out on an annual basis.
QBLOG should this be a part of your backbone project?
ALSO BRAD your skydiving analogy is wrong.
The correct analogy would be 14000 people jumping out of an airplane and 1 on them landing (i.e. Diamond) and hundreds with bruises and broken bones (lower pins) and the rest with fatalities (net losses).
It doesn't look so good when you take a glance at it THAT WAY!
ALSO BRAD your skydiving analogy is wrong.
The correct analogy would be 14000 people jumping out of an airplane and 1 on them landing (i.e. Diamond) and hundreds with bruises and broken bones (lower pins) and the rest with fatalities (net losses).
It doesn't look so good when you take a glance at it THAT WAY!
ALSO BRAD your skydiving analogy is wrong.
The correct analogy would be 14000 people jumping out of an airplane and 1 on them landing (i.e. Diamond) and hundreds with bruises and broken bones (lower pins) and the rest with fatalities (net losses).
It doesn't look so good when you take a glance at it THAT WAY!
ALSO BRAD your skydiving analogy is wrong.
The correct analogy would be 14000 people jumping out of an airplane and 1 on them landing (i.e. Diamond) and hundreds with bruises and broken bones (lower pins) and the rest with fatalities (net losses).
It doesn't look so good when you take a glance at it THAT WAY!
People who lose money in the stock market either do so over the short haul, or are uninformed investors. Over the long haul, if you diversify/invest wisely and ride out down trends, the chances of making a return on your investment are extremely high. In both my 401K and IRA, I'm extremely diversly invested. Yes the past is no solid prediction on the future, but if you diversify and invest the majority of your money in lower risk places, like bonds and blue chips stocks, over time, you should come out ahead.
As for the difference between my failure and your impending failure, Brad, it is in the system. I researched my oportunity before I signed on the dotted line and saw about a 66% success rate. I also looked at my demographic target and liked what I saw. Should have still done more research on competition, but in the end, the failure was mostly on me. It was the wrong fit for me, and I'm much happier, and making much more money working for somebody else.
With AmQuix, failure, depending on how you define it, can be as high as 99%+, as less then 1% will ever make diamond. If being profitable is your measure of success, you are still looking at a minute amount of success. I know it is anecdotal, but how many stories must we hear of people following the plan as core as can be and still failing misurably? Had my opportunity I jumped on had this high a failure rate, I would have passed, just like I did with AmQuix.
Last, to go back to one point Brad made a few posts ago regarding my time. I generally post at work. Sure I could be more productive at work, but I'm a firm believer that someone who does nothing but work for 8 hours when he is at work will actually be less productive them someone who takes a few breaks now and again. Fortunately, my boss agrees, and allows me some leeway with my time. My daughter at the time I post, is either with her mother, or at friend's house we use for day care. I assure you I'd still rather spend time with my daughter then work, but then if I did that, I wouldn't be able to afford to house and feed my daughter, so work isn't really that evil. After all, I get paid.
Fu: here's my point. Every critic claims "the burden of proof is on you (the IBO)" and we must have the gumption to do it.
But what does that leave for the critic? there is no consequence of you putting your words on this site. It is a weak place to display your own courage (not saying that this blog doesn't provide information for those looking, just that it does not serve as a place for you to prove yourself either)
Like everyone has said to many IBOs, put your money where your mouth is (or Schedule C or whatever). I am putting forth that option. From your comment, you backed down from my contract offer, and i have received no other takers. What this displays is that those bloggers that have so fervently requested 'proof' of IBO's success but provide nothing in return are merely cowards hiding in bushes poking at perceived weaknesses and backing away at the site of a challenge.
So, Fu, the challenge is there. Nothing comes for free, neither does this. If you are so passionate that this opportunity is not possible for me, please, e-mail me and we will set up something. When that doesn't happen, it will be clearly communicated in as many places as i can say it, that a challenge was made and all you oh-so-strong critics backed down.
Ok, regarding that ridiculously over used stat of 66%, please follow this link and read the breakdown Insider provides. It is just as good as anyone else could do.
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2442&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60
Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:12 pm
Ok, so quickly regarding that stat: "active IBO" includes going to ONE meeting, or ATTEMPTING to make a sale, successful or not. No one who only attends one meeting in the year and does nothing else is EVER led to believe they will make any profit (and in my group are confronted before the end of 6 months, and told about the 180 day policy for their registration and initial tools and given the option to take advantage). The Qstar presentation does not say "Sign up, and money will come your way" if anyone does say this, they should not be allowed to lead a function. (and no, do not insinuate that that has been said on a credible CD, it hasnt. I could piece together words from any of your posts and make it seem like you said something that you wouldn't ever say)
So, apply that same logic in the stat to your coveted 401k: add in all the people that have talked to a financial advisor, coworker, banker, or anyone about starting one, and didn't (which i would be one of), add that in to all who did, and then find out the percentage who were able, at 59 1/2, to live solely off of that income passively. When you find that accurate stat, get back to me, until then, you have no proof that your gambling will pay off in the long run any more than my success in this business. (i am curious for the stat from the Harvard Business Review that in the stock market "98% lose money, 1% break even, and 1% make money" before you get flamed, i do not use this stat, because i cannot verify it. However, i also have never found a clear counter to these numbers either. If you have either the source for this stat, or a credible stat and it's source/study that refutes it, i would be interested to see it)
Finally, DMM, you claim i have "impending failure" heading my way. Please, if you feel so strongly, take my challenge. If you dont, your words are hollow. Simple as that.
Brad,
Don't post your stats. It doesn't matter because even if you're the 1 in 14,000 that goes diamond, we know based on simple math that there will be thousands who don't make it for each one that does.
The reason you or other pro Q people get called out is because you (or other Q people) make claims about making big bucks. I know some people do make it big, and maybe you are one of them, but based on quixtar's numbers, I also know that many many people do not.
But the biggest beef is the deception used by the QMO's in recruiting people and then teaching them that you cannot succeed without functions and cd's.
Ok, so you can prove that for when I (or any other success story) succeeds, to Diamond, or "big bucks" then many others have failed DIRECTLY AFFECTED by that success? i know you do not have those numbers. It varies too much LOS to LOS, and they are not posted (or IMO exist at all to the extent you try to make it seem). Instead you flock to the all knowing Scott Larsen and the ever popular 66% statistic and apply twisted statistics and numbers to justify some unquenched hatred or disapproval of this business.
Your dodge of the challenge is weakness, simple as that. When someone steps up as saying they succeeded, you cast it aside. Yet when a person comes forth who failed (most likely of their own doing) you welcome them and raise them up? Sad... really sad.
Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.
-Mark Twain
Brad,
Here you go, an explanation by Lawdawg on how many diamonds, based on QUIXTAR's numbers. It's less than 100.
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2005/08/how-many-diamonds.html
And here's a post on 1999 diamond club:
650 guests (includes spouse and kids)
And diamond club includes Amway (foreign)and Quixtar (north america)diamonds
BUMPER CROP Amway Corp. wanted to honor its top independent business owners-its Diamond Club-with a "Diamond Field of Dreams" incentive trip to Hawaii. But how to create the movie's famous cornfield-cum-ballpark in a Maui hotel ballroom? Start sowing.
Pamela Huver, CMP, meeting planner for Ada, Mich.-based Amway Corp., partnered with Lori McAllister of M Group Scenic Studios of Scottsdale, Ariz. The team arranged for the Maui Farmers' Co-op to grow three acres of corn plants in individual pots. When the 2,500 stalks were 6 feet high, they were transported to the Grand Wailea Resort to line its pre-function area and ballroom.
At the event, paths through the corn led 650 guests past prop bleachers, stadium lights and a farmhouse to the center of the ballroom. There stood a baseball diamond complete with AstroTurf, bases and pitcher's mound. Hand-painted linens portraying baseball fields with bases covered the tables. Oversize baseballs accented with yellow and white daisies, miniature baseball bats and baseball cards formed the centerpieces. The waitstaff wore baseball shirts and hats; the banquet captains sported umpire shirts.
The event was a grand slam, Huver says. "The key phrase from the movie-'If you build it, they will come'-came to life."
Amway Corp. (meeting planner)
7575 Fulton St. E., Ada, MI 49355; 616/787-7684
RESOURCES: Grand Wailea Resort Hotel & Spa (catering);
Your turn Brad.........
Please Joe, that is worthless. I have read it, and again, i hand the reigns over to insider who already correctly addressed the errors in that analyzation (and follow the link provided earlier, finishes th true analysis). Once again, you back yourself up to a corner, and hold out the weak 66% shield. If you chose to trust in the house of cards lawdawg places in front of you, that's your deal.
Once again, you do nothing but come at me with 66% and issues with the exception cases of ' my upline made me buy tools '
no one makes you do anything, you make it work, whatever it is. You can make this problem of finding the truth work: Take my challenge. You believe i can't, i know i can. Now, if you want to go head to head we can.
Until then, come up with something directly addressing the analysis provided by insider, or hard evidence (not speculation, which your post is so far) that a diamond makes their lifestyle by forcing individuals to go broke.
It will be tough, because if that was happening, don't you think other agencies bigger and stronger than you would have found it? i dont know, you just might be a savior to all those poor, helpless people out there. Good luck and good night.
Brad,
Insider did a rebuttal but his analysis did not come up with a whole lot more diamonds.
Why don't you make it easy and silence all the critics by proving how many diamonds actually exist?
Let's see it.......
ANSWERING BRADS CHALLENGE
Good sir I accept you challenge with this caveat. I will handicap my performance by assuming that all of my money is in a Certificate of Deposit.
A decent CD is earning around 4%.
So, in order to beat the non-IBO performance, you have to show growth above and beyond 4% compounded annually.
That shouldnt be too hard to do for a guy with a 2-5 year plan. LETS SEE IT BRAD
Are you going to be a skydiver than lands safely, or one that GOES SPLAT
Please Brad, that is worthless. I have read it, and again, i hand the reigns over to Lawdawg who already correctly addressed the errors in that analyzation (and follow the link provided earlier, finishes th true analysis). Once again, you back yourself up to a corner If you chose to trust in the house of cards Insider places in front of you, that's your deal.
no one makes you do anything, you make it work, whatever it is. You can make this problem of finding the truth work: Take my challenge. You believe i can't, i know i can. Now, if you want to go head to head we can.
Until then, come up with something directly addressing the analysis provided by Lawdawg, or hard evidence (not speculation, which your post is so far) that a diamond makes their lifestyle by forcing individuals to go broke.
It will be tough, because if that was happening, don't you think other agencies bigger and stronger than you would have found it? i dont know, you just might be a savior to all those poor, helpless people out there. Good luck and good night.
JoeCool: You have proven nothing and are a drain on this post. Copying and editing my post is weak. (seems like a theme for many of you)
It comes down to this: Present both sides. LawDawg's incomplete analysis, and insiders more complete analysis then let people decide. (by the way, is LawDawg a successful, practicing lawyer? Just wondering. I wonder how he would be rated next to corporate lawyers that are on Q-star, MOs, and partner companies' teams?)
There is no proof, for or against an argument of how you can succeed in this industry, by how many diamonds there are. How many people are worth over $1 billion? about 350 in the US? So does that mean that you or I can or can't do it? no. You chose to stand behind a few numbers (66% and a number that is, in your OPINION, too low for the number of diamonds there should be) and provide no proof that my success is draining my bank account or the bank account of those in my group, especially to the point that X claims he was taken advantage of. (remember, i have reduced my debt this year... how could i do that by handing over $1000s to my upline who is 'forcing me' to do so? o yeah, because that isn't what is happening.)
And Fu: Thank you for taking my challenge. Please get my e-mail address from QBlog and send me an e-mail and we will write up a contract. I am sure people will be interested over the next few years as to the results.
Brad, my point is that Insider and Lawdawg both did an analysis. Both had reasonable arguments in my opinion. The point is either way you look at it, there weren't a significant number os diamond success stories considering that there have been millions of people who have attempted to reach the goal of receiving "residual" income for life.
Brad> And, the "put up or shut up" thing that is such a theme, i provided my challenge. Just like dental school takes 4 plus years, Med school takes 4-8 years, law school, PhD, etcetc... this is a 2-5 year plan. I am in year 1 and 1 month. Would you ask a med student in their first month of their second year how much they make? profit loss? How bout even a year out of college? no they are in debt.
But here, our plan, which can be seen on the site, show's FTC numbers claiming (with no guarantee) that in 2-5 years you can create an income stream of $150,000 a year. My challenge is i will do that. Those ARE the checks. Nothing in the plan does it say "After all your chosen expenses, and other things that you find "necessary' that really might not be, you will be guaranteed $150,000" I do say, however, that at this level, within the 2-5 year window, i will be able to fully support myself, my family, and my business off of this income.
I'll say it again, even if Brad does this, can he honestly say that his downline collectively will make a profit? I know that some people succeed and Brad may be one of them. My contention is that for each person making money, that IBO has a group that collectively loses (If they are CORE).
Oh and Brad,
I will give you props for taking up that challenge with fu. I'm interested to see how your business progresses.
Brad said: "by the way, is LawDawg a successful, practicing lawyer? Just wondering. I wonder how he would be rated next to corporate lawyers that are on Q-star, MOs, and partner companies' teams?)"
What in the hell does this have to do with anything? Are you asking Lawdawg and a bunch of Quixtar lawyers to have a pissing contest to see who is the bigger man?
Brad said: "There is no proof, for or against an argument of how you can succeed in this industry, by how many diamonds there are. How many people are worth over $1 billion?"
Wow again you astound me with the BS that you're trying to argue with. So now we're comparing Billionaires to Millionaires. Well gee whats the difference right? Only a few zeros. In any case it seems that there are more US Billionaires then there are Quixtar Diamond Millionaires. Hmmmm fancy that. Point is some MO's make this seem like it's an easy plan. the whole 2-5 years example while probably has been achieved is hardly the norm. if it was then you would've seen people like Eric Scheibeler making diamond twice over.
JoeCool> there have been millions of people who have attempted to reach the goal of receiving "residual" income for life
Brad> "attempted" is the variable here. What is attempted? In the case of the presentation, attempted is proper use of the CORE system (which includes M/C volume, and proper counseling and guidence). There will be breakdowns of these from time to time, but those are insignificant compared to the individuals who decide it is too hard to follow the plan as it is provided.
JoeCool> even if Brad does this, can he honestly say that his downline collectively will make a profit?
Brad> First point: So you admit you know that i can do this? So, what is the difference between me and my downline, or crossline friends who are in the same boat? The access or refusal of CDs? The counseling? NO, it is personal choice. There is a lack of profit for those that chose not to take advantage of the opportunity fully, or exercise their right to refunds, etc. We are getting closer to all of you admitting to the fault in the individual. It comes down to that. 6 months back is better than ANY refund policy out there. Please so me others, i would be curious to see them. And the available mentorship for those that truely want to succeed (not get rich quick). If it is not in your LOS/LOA, you CAN switch. however, check inside yourself for the problem first.
And finally this, which i have heard on a CD: "People refuse to participate in get-rich-quick schemes, but as soon as they find out this is NOT get-rich-quick they are upset" I am a little over 1 year in, and i'm not stopping.
To X, i read through your story, and i do understand and empathize with the pressure of such debt. However, i cannot defend it, nor your perceived reasons for it. I am in the same postion. Completely core for 1 year, hit 1000, fell back, but i am not thousands in debt because of it. Although you do paint a personal experience of you in this industry, it is important that you clearly display that your participation in all aspects of the business came down to a personal choice of yours (no matter the perceived pressure) and that it is not representative of all teams.
Where i see this discussion so far, as brought forth by JoeCool: It is possible for one individual to make it in this opportunity (refering to me specifically). If one can make it, why can't another? I am currently the downline of others, and on core. So, why is it that when i become successful all my downline are suffering on core, but i, right now, as a downline, am not suffering? Choice, ladies and gentlemen, it comes down to choice. What you do with what you have.
Brad> "attempted" is the variable here. What is attempted? In the case of the presentation, attempted is proper use of the CORE system (which includes M/C volume, and proper counseling and guidence). There will be breakdowns of these from time to time, but those are insignificant compared to the individuals who decide it is too hard to follow the plan as it is provided.
Joe> Yes, attempted, because to a lot of people, it's made to sound very simple. Sponsor 6 who sponsor 4 who sponsor 2.
And conversely, there are many who put in core effort and did not make it. I personally know some people who have been core since 1994 and have not gone direct yet.
Brad> First point: So you admit you know that i can do this? So, what is the difference between me and my downline, or crossline friends who are in the same boat?
Joe> I don't know if you can do this or not. Statistics say it is unlikely. My point is even if you do make it, you will leave a trail of people who didn't/couldn't who will have lost money.
I do give your credit though, if you really did take the challenge with fu. No one else has ever done it.
Brad> Where i see this discussion so far, as brought forth by JoeCool: It is possible for one individual to make it in this opportunity (refering to me specifically). If one can make it, why can't another?
Joe> Yes, it is possible to make it. If you make it (diamond), there will be 4-500
people losing money (if they are core) and if 5 others make it, they will also have groups of 4-500 people below them losing money.
You see, quixtar is a legal pyramid. Anyone can become pharoah, but each pharoah will need 4-500 slaves to build their pyramid.
Here's the response to the losing money thing. To you, losing money is this: Seeing value in tools and buying them, without taking advantage of the refund policy in the case they want to return them. And, to stretch it, buying products which if they like them, use them, if they don't like them, return them within 180-days as well.
So, let me see here, take any store for example... i pick... a hardware store for instance (i like those). Someone is in charge, and owns "X" hardware corporation. If he has the "successful" income of a diamond, $150,000 a year, then it is a fairly large company (1 large store, or perhaps 2-3 smaller outlets). Now, every person that willingly walks in the door is not forced to buy anything, despite the fact some employees will show them how this tool, or this piece of lumber, will help them in their current situation. In the case they buy this tool, or lumber, a piece of the money paid goes to the company in terms of profit. Now, if the person comes back 4 months later and wants a refund, can they get it? most likely not. Did the store, and thus the owner, just make money off of them? yes.
So the simple question is: Do successful diamonds get cuts of money from items sold within their business (whether tools or products)? yes, they do. If you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with all business. The difference here is that any one of those individuals can pick themselves up and make money with the opportunity they are putting money into.
The only problem i can legitimately see is the pressure SOME (the exception, not the rule) IBOs will put on having to buy certain things and will keep pushing them even though that is not what is helping this particular IBO grow. I am sorry for that situation, but i am not sorry for the person, who's goal is to grow financially, that does not realize that there is a reason they are not growing like others around them are, and they need to look at what they do, and grab a sack and do what works. If they dont, once again, it is their fault. (you can follow the steps independent of upline that pressures you, you can switch LOS/LOA, you have many options that will help you succeed. Complaining about it isnt one of them)
Your people might be happy where they are, ever consider that? I know, personally, of an individual as well, involved in the business for about the same amount of time. He is not platinum, in fact, no where close. But he likes the people on the team, enjoys listening to the CDs and reading the books, and discussing them with like minded people. Is son grew up around the business, is currently 24 yrs old, and has set out to make it work. If you see this as failing, that is your own distorted view and once again shows the falicy that many people have when placing the whole basis of criticism on 66% and the number of diamonds.
Have a good weekend.
JoeCool> If you make it (diamond), there will be 4-500
people losing money (if they are core) and if 5 others make it, they will also have groups of 4-500 people below them losing money
Brad> So right now, i am one of those that is currrently losing money? Well, first i see it as investment (yes, point of view, and no i dont need you to come blasting that with any opinions that have already been said) More importantly, i have reduced my debt during the time in the business more than i would have without. How? Good association. Getting out of debt is the first goal of all but one person on our team. (he came in with no debt, and hasnt gone into debt either). Both my sponsor, and mentor were in the debt like i was when starting the business. At 2 years for them, one is compeletely out of debt, the other is 1 month away. They do not use credit cards, and pay cash for everything.
So... my diamond is abusing me? No. I am very thankful of my diamond, my emerald and upline mentors. They are great examples of character, financial integrity, and a whole lot of fun to be around.
Once again, have a good weekend everybody. Enjoy the superbowl with friends and tons of food.
Here's an analysis by Bystander:
Pay attention to his last statement:
Approaching from a different angle:
Q's own published $370million in bonuses for fiscal year
Q's own published $115/mo average (mean) gross per active "IBO"
Q's own published 66% "active" rate
Q's own published .0176% diamond rate
$370megabux/($115x12mo)=268,116 receiving bonus
268,116/.66=406,236 total "IBO"
406,236x.0176%=71 diamonds
This is within spitting distance of the number from the first calculation, indicating either they may be consistent, or there's a grievous error in each, and it's just a coincidence they're so close.
Now, there may be a dispute whether "active" and "receiving bonus" coincide. "Active but not receiving bonus" "IBO" would increase the number of "IBO" and along with it the number of diamonds. How many of these are there?
That 268,166 is of course not the 380,300 reported, but there is a question I never got an answer to: Do you all renew on the same day each year? If not, that 380,300 would be total unique "IBO" receiving bonus during the year, whereas with a 50% turnover rate the average number at a given time could run anywhere from 1/3 to 2/3 of that 380,300 total. Example: you start with two who receive checks, one quits and is replaced some months later with another who receives at least one check. Three people have received checks, but there has never been more than two at any time. 268,166 is 70% of 380,300, just a wee over that 2/3... what do you know!
I'd still like to know about that renewal thing, though.
The number of diamonds, however puny it might actually be, merely serves as a distraction from the question of whether or not it's a good idea to join.
Brad you need to read more and write less. I don't need to send my info. to QBLOG, because ANYONE CAN GET A CD FOR 4%
So that is my proverbial side of the bet. I could disclose full financial ROI but I don't need you hounding my personal info.
So, I am putting my slowest, lowest yeilding investment against your proposal. Let's see if you can do it SHALL WE?
Brad> So right now, i am one of those that is currrently losing money?
Joe> Well, yeah, aren't you? The only difference is I say losing money, you say making an investment.
Brad> Brad> More importantly, i have reduced my debt during the time in the business more than i would have without.
Joe> How are you doing that when you are not making money in your business? more likely it's your job that's reducing your debt?
Brad> They do not use credit cards, and pay cash for everything.
Joe> Ludicrous. I use a cashback credit card, pay the bill each month and get money for it. That's better than quixtar!
By the way, you didn't dispute Bystander's
anaylsis using QUIXTAR's numbers:
Approaching from a different angle:
Q's own published $370million in bonuses for fiscal year
Q's own published $115/mo average (mean) gross per active "IBO"
Q's own published 66% "active" rate
Q's own published .0176% diamond rate
$370megabux/($115x12mo)=268,116 receiving bonus
268,116/.66=406,236 total "IBO"
406,236x.0176%=71 diamonds
Have a nice weekend!
Joecool, that last sentence is what i was saying: it is a distraction. Had anyone run a mile in under 4 minutes before Roger Banister? Or any other milestone like that, the numbers before don't matter, it is all on your own effort.
My challenge is putting that effort to the test. If i put effort into this thing, will it succeed? Regardless of the statistics available, and all the other BS you guys throw up here.
Fu: you need to read more. Copied from above:
Fu, the only taker on the challenge. Please e-mail me (eric should have my address), and we can outline the rules (yes, my business, my rules) and a legally binding contract will be set up, with worthwhile payments/compensation to the successful party upon the end of the 5 years, or completion of said result, whichever comes first. I will not post to this forum,
This is putting your money where your mouth is. Any body can type words on a blog. Can you support them with something of value? A contract will be established that will give the winning party whatever is decided on (between you and me)
I dont care what you use as a comparision, i am proving the plan as it is presented. I dont care about your investments (unless you want a comparision between our choices of investments and which will be better for financial independance)
So, as you again dodge the true challenge, e-mail me, and we will set up the contract. Until that is done, there have been no takers from the critics corner. None of you have shown that you are willing to put yourself on the line to defend what you write up here on the post. (posted being: this opportunity lies and financial independence that is shown in the presentation is not attainable)
enjoy the superbowl!!
Wow Brad, you've really been listening to those tapes.
So you can't refute QUIXTAR's numbers can you?
Sure, Roger Bannister rans the mile in under 4 minutes, probably against the odds.
But were there coaches asking runners to pay for their foolproof training system that was guaranteed to work and allow them to run a mile under 4 minutes? And then when they could not run the mile in under 4 minutes, the coach said the runner didn't work hard enough or didn't follow my foolproof plan. Same as quixtar.
OK Brad, I've been reading, shaking my head, and laughing. You said:
"and owns "X" hardware corporation. If he has the "successful" income of a diamond, $150,000 a year, then it is a fairly large company (1 large store, or perhaps 2-3 smaller outlets). Now, every person that willingly walks in the door is not forced to buy anything, despite the fact some employees will show them how this tool, or this piece of lumber, will help them in their current situation. In the case they buy this tool, or lumber, a piece of the money paid goes to the company in terms of profit."
Dude, a couple things:
1- Name a hardware store that has people approaching people in malls and bookstores, trying to get them to buy at that hardware store. There aren't any. Lame.
2- Anyone walking into a hardware store is generally looking for an item to buy. Sales associates may describe different products and the pros and cons of each.
As a matter of fact, I HAVE taken things back to Home Depot that didn't work the way they were supposed to. One was 6 months AFTER the sale. It's called integrity man, and it isn't what the tool kingpins abide by. Here's the reason:
Kingpins make money off of tools. Most of it in fact. If you want to argue that point, you really are not too bright. There is irrefutable evidence which illustrates this. If the kingpins did actually stand behind their useless tools and refund money if their "team" did not make money, they would be very poor very fast.
Off topic a bit Brad, why do you think the kingpins never revealed the tools proifits until the internet basically took away their ability to control information?
Do you think hiding the fact that they made money off of tools was acceptable?
They all did it you know. All of them. Now they admit it........reluctantly.
That's your leadership of honesty and integrity, man.
Good luck with that.
Brad> Jcool 1st post: What's my point? People sit in these forums and bash a business opportunity with the INTENT to give people "the truth" so they do not participate in it.
Joe> Who's bashing? Critics say quixtar's not a good deal, you say it is. I've seen critics and IBO's who made valid points.
Speaking of the truth, did anyone say anthing untrue? I always hear that from pro-Q folks but they never point out what was untrue.
Rocket, interesting input. I have been told about tools from the beginning. The business model the hardware store uses allows for a different marketing style. If you dont like marketing the way this business does it, dont do it. But you cannot stand on that as saying it doesnt work.
Yes, platinums and above are making money on tools from me, and i am not about to stop buying them. They are helping me grow my business. I have always offered tools back to those leaving the business. They have either said "no" or just never called back. THat is not my problem. For those coming up on 6 months without doing much with it, i call and ask if everything is ok with them and notify them that the 180 days for the registration fee and all tools is coming up. Thus far, no one has taken it. (this is from guidence of our upline Emerald. Yeah, can you belive it?? a profit sharer in tools, with guidance from his upline diamond mentor, offering tools back? how shocking........)
This isnt something my team hides. You just can't admit that some people actually do this right, do this properly and are successful.
and i honestly dont care that you sit there, shake your head and laugh. Laughter is good, it gives your abs a workout. But as for you thinking you know beter than me, the challenge made above is offered to you as well. E-mail me, and we will put something down in writing that I cant do this.
And again, still no takers on it. (Until fu e-mails me, he hasn't taken it. The contract is taking the challenge)
JoeCool: The truth, as i see it, is taking all into consideration.
What you critics leave out are these aspects:
The truth about active IBOs. Not the "active" IBOs (that attend one meeting, or attempt one sale) were ever led to believe that their current level of work will lead to financial independence. Following the system (CORE, to include, sharing this opportunity X times a week, counseling, etc) is how you get there.
The whole look at the 66%. again, the active IBO vs ones that actually follow what will get them there, and stick around long enough. Less than one year will NOT get you to financial independence in the amount of work most new IBOs put in.
And MOST IMPORTANTLY, you ALLL downplay the role of the individual and his choice in his own business. Whether that be to build it, quit, whatever. X chose to buy those CDs, chose to put it on credit, etc. No one pushes your hand to do it. If you feel pressure, then remove yourself from it. If that means quit that team, fine!!! BUT, none of you, from what i have read, has ever come out and said "well, in this case, it really was your choice" INstead, you hide behind claims of cult action, pressure, lies, dateline, etcetcetc. That is deception and avoidance of important points when considering the succes and failure of INDIVIDUALS in this business.
This business neither succeeds nor fails, the individual is the one that does that.
Hey Brad! I see this part kinda was shook off:
Why do you think the kingpins never revealed the tools proifits until the internet basically took away their ability to control information?
Do you think hiding the fact that they made money off of tools was acceptable?
They all did it you know. All of them. Now they admit it........reluctantly.
That's your leadership of honesty and integrity, man.
Good luck with that.
I don't think you'll be successful. That's all.
1. I don't think there is the demand for your overpriced product that you think there is. You can't control "your" prices. You simply cannot.
2. You appear intelligent. You surely must surely be aware most of the money is made from the tools, no?
3. Your hardware store analogy is pretty much a loser dude. People are not looking to get prospected into a business with the connection to Amway (By that I mean less that 1% of the participants actually attain the coveted diamond level) When people go into a store, they are usually trying to buy something. People understand that some of what they spend is profit to the store...duh.
The (ha ha) "leaders" selling tools is a complete and utter conflict of interest. On the one hand, they say you need them to succeed. On the other hand, they tell you that you have to buy the tools through them.
They also completely seem oblivious to the fact that if these tapes/CD's etc.. are soooo important and sooo required for success, yet they do not provide them via MP3 file to their downline. What could be easier and more convenient that having your entire downline as a group in your email and forwarding the latest motivational recording to them?
MP3 emails are a lot more efficient and cheaper to distribute than the cumbersome CD's and tapes.
It is obvious to most people why they don't do it that way.......
Except to you it seems.
Thanks for coming to this website. I was beginning to lose all hope of any Pro-Quix people coming back. Once the facts hit them upside the head, they kinda poop out and slither away.
Hang In There!
And who is to say that I have to play by YOUR RULES BRAD.
This is my challenge to you and to any pro-MLM person out there.
Show your Schedule Cs year-over-year for 2-5 years (as you all like to boast).Let's see if you can beat a 4% yeild from a certificate of deposit.My guess is no.
I don;t feel compelled to put anything on it. I don't have to. I have enough money that I don't have to chase it because my money has worked effectively for me for a number of decades. That is true freedom.
Beating you with a 4% CD is like beating you with one hand tied behind my back. I could bring out numerous investments that have netted double (sometimes triple) digit returns. But then again I don't have to.
I'll win the challenge with a simple 4% CD. Something that is available to everyone. And then we can start converting some of the pro-MLM folks out there. OK?
hey joe, rocket,fu, I just spent $20,000 on critics choice peanut butter and got free delivery! i should have a nice check coming back this month! it actually paid for all my xs and vitamans . it takes money to make money!!!!
Brad , im on your side!! just having some fun feeding the "SHARKS"!!!!
As strange as it sounds I think Smith has a point here. If you want to drop 20large on no-name peanut butter the go for it. Hey its a free country.
My offer stands tho. 4% on CDs compounded annually is gonna wollop any returns you may see through MLM.
And I dont have to use no-name products either. That should be worth somethin TOO
no name product means: not brand marketed to your approved liking. Nothing else.
ANd Fu, final offer. Take it or leave it. Put something of value down to support your claim that i can't make it.
Until then, words are cheap, and easy to spread. I consider this challenge untaken and stand behind that FACT (yes, it's not a fact, a week the challenge has been here) that critics here are weak and will not place themselves behind what they claim.
Brad my 4% challenge stands. Anyone even struggling IBOs can drop out of their losing-money positions effective tomorrow and start to make 4% on their money.
That's what I am promoting. Positive cash flow. If you want to show an alternate or better return, then please do so.
Better yet, I can provide documented proof of return. JUST GO TO ANY BANK WEBSITE FOR CD RATES. THE PROOF IS OBVIOUS.
If you can't show defeat my proposal then please step down as you are the one spreading cheap words across the web.
Brad, words are indeed cheap. You have yet to respond to:
Why do you think the kingpins never revealed the tools proifits until the internet basically took away their ability to control information?
Do you think hiding the fact that they made money off of tools was acceptable?
As well as :
MP3 emails are a lot more efficient and cheaper to distribute than the cumbersome CD's and tapes.
What say you Brad? No challenge or anything, just seeing if you have an answer. There is a reaon they are hard to respond to. I hope it doesn't cost you too much to find out why.
Maybe Chris, Ryan Hicks, Emminem, or Tony could give you a hand.
I am curious though as to why you think this year will be any better than last year for you.
Hmm, its funny how Brad suddenly clams up when asked to show how he can beat an abysmal, but highly unlikely to be any lower, 4% return with his Quixtar business. What are your revenues & expenses for the past 2-5 years, or however long you've been in the business. How much money did you invest in the business and don't tell me it was just the $100 starter kit (or whatever they charge for that piece of junk these days). Let me give you a quick education on this:
Revenues = product sales + cut of "tools" sales
Expenses = inventory costs + money spent on "tools", meetings, conferences, etc.
Revenues - Expenses = Profit
Profit/$ invested in the business (starter kit plus upfront "tools" and meetings) =
% return on equity.
Your % return on equity should really be 10% or higher if you claim this whole Quixtar thing is better than the stockmarket/401(k), but given the stockmarket's performance for the last 5 years (and only the last 5 years IMHO), I'll say 8% is acceptable.
Other factors to (not) consider in this:
"Personal growth" from Quixtar = worthless from a business/return on equity standpoint.
"New circle of friends" to go to for any type of counseling/advice = worthless from a business/return on equity standpoint.
Saving money on household products by "buying through your own business" = worthless from a business/return on equity standpoint. Even if Quixtar products at wholesale price were cheaper (which they aren't) discounts on household products don't mean a damn thing when you're running a business.
Okay, now that I've spoken my piece, I think we can expect one of three typical responses, these are the ones I've always gotten from Quixtar distributors:
1.No response/dodging the question(s).
2."Well, I'm just getting started and expect to turn a profit any day now."
3."I don't discuss my personal financial information with anyone." (most likely response here.
Current nationwide average CD rates, available on Yahoo!
1 year CD: 4.2%
2 year CD: 4.3%
3 year CD: 4.3%
5 year CD: 4.45%
And here's the link, so you know I'm not making this up:
http://banking.yahoo.com/r/avgs.html
Smith> hey joe, rocket,fu, I just spent $20,000 on critics choice peanut butter and got free delivery! i should have a nice check coming back this month! it actually paid for all my xs and vitamans . it takes money to make money!!!!
Joe> Shrewd. Spend $20,000 and get back $5000. You must have made your upline proud! :)
Joe, that's only if he's at the 25% bracket.
Which I bet he isn't.
Either way, the whole thing still sucks.
But the upline would be proud. After all, he's doing what it takes!
Hi Chris, no i wasnt claming.. i was watching the superbowl, getting rest, and working (clearly this blog is much more important to you....).
That begs the analysis: i can wait for a week for a response to my challenge, but you only give me 2 days to respond? Interesting... really highlights your strength.
Rocket, to your questions (no, i did not avoid them, i just havent addressed them directly yet)
R> Why do you think the kingpins never revealed the tools proifits until the internet basically took away their ability to control information?
Do you think hiding the fact that they made money off of tools was acceptable?
B> I do not know what they hid, or why they did it. This is what i do know: They are not hiding it now, i know of all the profit breakdown, and i like it.
Go back in time and ask this to Henry Ford: Tires help make your cars run, correct Mr Ford? well, to keep them running with as little problem and cost as possible, how bout you provide those, and all the tire repairs for free? O, you dont want to? Then (you critics chyme in) that's a Bad business model, you are taking advantage of people that buy your cars!!! Is that true? anyone, anyone, bueller? OF COURSE NOT!!! You should profit off work you have done (speaking, putting together teaching, etc) and this paid expense, as has been said before, puts value on those tools. People do not value (use, whatever) what they do not pay for. (They take it for granted)
And, is it acceptable? i wasnt there, i dont know them, and i am not affected by them in currently building my business. As said before, i do not mind paying the price per CD, because i find an equal or greater value in it! In a privately held business, privacy is necessary to a point. Now, i dont want to get into that, because that would be speculation (ayou are all familiar with speculation: many of you go off hearsay, and third party sources, to SPECULATE income streams, money, business costs Qstar and tools sides etcetc)
next:
R> MP3 emails are a lot more efficient and cheaper to distribute than the cumbersome CD's and tapes.
B> Yes, perhaps MP3s will be more efficient, but to move billions of dollars worth of training over technology mediums is not easy, and will not happen quickly. AND it would not be effecient for me as i listen to these in my car, and i have just a CD player. When MP3 readers are more available as standard options in cars, then i can see them changing. (Your opinion on that has no bearing on their choice of business move... because you arent even paying them!!!!!!) AND, to add to that, what are mp3s of music CDs now? they sell, 99 cents per track. DO i pay that? sometimes yes. Will i pay for MP3s of training, yes. I find it of value. So does my team. and we are not going into debt (nor encouraging going into debt) to pay it.
OK, finally to Fu, and the 4% issue.
I do accept that challenge of the 4% (just view any other posts of my challenge.) WHat YOU are NOT accepting is backing your claim with something of value. Words on this post are worthless in the end. They will crumble away in a matter of weeks/months/years. (sorry Qblog but it is true). But what wil not go away is a formal contract that will lay out the rules, and the consequence of completing, or failing, in the challenge (My succeeding at this business, as prescribed in the FTC approved 2-5 year model)
Will it beat 4% then, yes, so i dont have a problem with that as yoru benchmark.
And thank you chris for the info on CDs and your lengthy explanation of profit. I turn it back at you with my response:
#1) Isn't it in the best interest to reduce the taxable income of a company (as long as it is not public with shareholders) to as low a value as possible, thus keeping most money in business investments and use as possible? (there is really only one answer, YES, look in any book on how to correctly keep and run a small business by using pretax income to fuel your business and activitues the business owner can now do in conjunction with business, thus write off)
and #2) My challenge is for you to. Please refer to it in previous posts (it's in almost every one) and specifically responses to Fu. You can easily back up your passion by putting your true name (which could be Chris Johnson) on the line as well as some value.. (monetary or otherwise) in a contract that you believe i will not do the 2-5 year plan (As stated earlier, i am at the 1 yr 1 mo point, only hit 1000 once, and have fallen back, so you have quite the advantage, and, i imagine quite a grin on your face too;-)
Bring that grin to the world by putting something on this
I have waited a week. So ATTENTION ALL READERS. It has been one week since i asked ANY ONE, or multiple, critics/cynics/random-passerby's (who, if they are passionate, HAVE seen at least one of these challenge: ie, dmm, joecool, fu, chris) to take me up on a challenge by e-mailing me. It has not happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHat does that say for all these critics??
One Phrase: They are weak and hide behind their keyboards instead of actually stepping out into the line of fire and putting their passion and conviction on the line. (i am doing that, by building my business. their conviction is to see it doesnt work) DO they have the "gumption"? I doubt it.
(for those like chris, although i have found challenging you a little fun, i have found no more use with arguing stupid statistics that are incomplete, and other illogical ramblings that attempt to slant views of innocent readers. If i do not respond to you, it is most likely because i have not come to this again. I will however check the email address that QBlog has, and if there is an acceptance to the challenge, i will announce it on the post, but then work with that individual on the challenge) Thank you, have a good week.
Hi Brad!
The difference is Mr. Ford did not sell tires, nor repair tires. Tire shops were created, and Ford did not do this to the best of my knowledge. If you have other information I'd be happy to see it.
In respose to whether or not hiding tools profits was acceptable, you said, "They are not hiding it now, i know of all the profit breakdown, and i like it. "
What is the profit breakdown in your group? Do you have a link to it, or is that priviledged information? Is this shown at plans so prospects go into this fully aware?
"Yes, perhaps MP3s will be more efficient, but to move billions of dollars worth of training over technology mediums is not easy"
Actually it is. As far as the motivational business being WORTH billions that you descibe, that's pretty subjective. There is nothing easier than sendikng an MP3 file to a group of people.
Once you receive the MP3 file, you can burn it to a disk to listen to in your car. Cost to you? The price of a blank disk. If the motivation is soo valuable because it helps move many products, and money is made off of the movement of products, then why would they not give you the motivation for free?
Because that is where they make their money. It's really very simple to understand, if you would only open your mind. Your mind is like a parachute you know. It only works when it's open.
Ever hear that before?
Brad> But here, our plan, which can be seen on the site, show's FTC numbers claiming (with no guarantee) that in 2-5 years you can create an income stream of $150,000 a year. My challenge is i will do that. Those ARE the checks. Nothing in the plan does it say "After all your chosen expenses, and other things that you find "necessary' that really might not be, you will be guaranteed $150,000" I do say, however, that at this level, within the 2-5 year window, i will be able to fully support myself, my family, and my business off of this income.
i will do this following the system, with tool purchases, attending business seminars. legally, morally and ethically, with no one in my business leaving without the appropriate refund or anything else.
So, you're taking me up on it?
Joe> After you and fu finish your contract, I'd like to see it and I'll let you know if I'm in on the challenge.
That being said, even if you are able to "make it", then I'd also challenge you to prove that your group collectively is making money after business expenses are deducted.
I have never said that no one makes money in quixtar, my contention is that many people lose in order for few to win.
Brad leave your email address in my Joecool mailbox on the forum.
While we're at it, let's see if Smith wants to ante up too.
Brad:I do not know what they hid, or why they did it. This is what i do know: They are not hiding it now, i know of all the profit breakdown, and i like it.
pops: Serious question. Do they show the profit breakdown of the major semiars? Just a quick guesstimate> 5000 attendees @ $200 ea = $1,000,000. Does it really take 1 million dollars to run a 3 day semiar? I don't know you tell me.
Brad> And as for one thing NONE of you have clearly addressed: WHere is the responsibility of the individual that signs up in this business? Are they all sheep? When you make that assumption, you are really putting down all the people (like X and other story tellers on this site) that they were too weak-minded that they could be so easily persauded.
So, answer this. What responsibility does the individual have?
Joe> It depends on what they were told when they were recruited. Yes, if they sign up and never open the box, that would not be upline's fault.
However, when upline says tools are optional but so is success and the IBO commits and is CORE and still doesn't make money despite following upline's foolproof teaching system, isn't that the fault of the teachers?
And conversely, what responsibility does upline have? Unless you build your business beyond platinum, you aren't making money unless you are exceptional at retailing. What backlash is there when the foolproof system does not work?
Hi Brad!
I'm not going to do a bunch of cutting and pasting here so that it is simple for people to follow instead of having to re-hash other stuff.
If motivation is important, then why do you need to profit from it? Do you not make more from the movement of products? It is easy to simply dismiss it as an income stream, when it in fact was a closely guarded secret for many years.
Do you have the breakdown of tools profits? Do you have an actual document or link I could check out?
Perhaps most importantly, do you advise all of your prospective "partners" of that information? Do you show them how much $$ is made off of the motivation business?
Do you clearly explain this as part of your presentation, so that they will go in fully aware of that? Do you explain how the primary source of income is by the motivation?
As far as Covey, Kiyosaki, Litman, Oliver are concerned, they are motivational speakers. When people pay for something, they know who it's going to and for what purpose. I don't know if any of them have ever prescribed a tape a day or not. Maybe Kiyosaki has, but I think he's a tool to begin with.
At the end of the day, if you are being completely up front with people, they will generally not sign up, once they see the TRUE cost of being in Quixtar.'
If you do not disclose EVERYTHING, then you are perpetrating the deception.
You know very well that not many people are going to sign up for your business with it's overpriced products, all in the hopes of making hundreds of thousands of dollars by selling tapes and CD's to people.
Brad> All right, sorry, I should have given you more time to respond and yes, Chris Johnson is my real name, I was the one who wrote the posts asking how to crash an Quixtar meeting. But back to the matter at hand..here's what you said in your previous post:
"#1) Isn't it in the best interest to reduce the taxable income of a company (as long as it is not public with shareholders) to as low a value as possible, thus keeping most money in business investments and use as possible? (there is really only one answer, YES, look in any book on how to correctly keep and run a small business by using pretax income to fuel your business and activitues the business owner can now do in conjunction with business, thus write off)"
Yes Brad, it is in your interest to reduce TAXABLE income to as low a value as possible, but profit is still profit. Anyway, TAXABLE income is always different from BOOK income, and if you want to get really technical about it, there is your NET INCOME for shareholder purposes that public companies calculate when filing their 10-K reports with the SEC. It is always different from TAXABLE income. Furthermore, nobody gets rich from running a business at a loss for the purpose of "writing things off." Profit is still profit. On top of that, if your business continues to show no profit or lose money the IRS will regard it as a hobby after three years and will disallow many of the deductions. Oh, and by the way, the IRS wrote a special technical ruling devoted solely to independent Amway distributorships and shot down many of the things that the motivational organizations said you could write off for tax purposes, especially the conferences where it is mostly social and little business activity occurs.
Your tax argument and "keeping investments in the business" makes no sense. Yes, you want to have your taxable income low as possible but you don't go into business to make little or no money. Idiot.
Oh, and regarding your challenge, I'm not the one claiming to get rich in 2-5 years. What do you mean a contract? I have to pay compensation for you to prove your point?
Oh and Brad, why did David and Debbie Shores, two of the most profitable diamonds in WorldWide Dreambuilders (supposedly) default on their home mortgage? Thought all diamonds were millionaires. Don't believe me? Here's the story:
http://www.amquix.info/wwdb_shores.html
A link for the foreclosure documents is on the website. Not only did they default on their mortgage, they didn't even try to sell the place and/or work out something with the bank. They just packed up and left, probably ruining their credit permanently. 2-5 year plan at its best!
Wow, isn't this the most typical situation when people are prospected? Shrouded in mystery, many IBO's will answer questions with a question. This blog may indeed have saved many people.
Posted by: Joecool18 | January 30, 2006 5:09 PM