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August 22, 2005
Monday Reader Mail: 54
By QBlog in Reader Mail
Reader Mail is back! This week's entry is straight from the Quixtar playbook complete with references to the BBB, the alleged "thousands of lawyers" and ambiguous income claims! As always, my comments appear in bold.
name: Richelle
date: August 19, 2005
message: Just one man's perception is exactly right.
Yeah, that's right. What other perceptions are there? I suppose there's a "woman's perceptions" and maybe "hive-mind perceptions" if Richelle is part of a collective intelligence like the Borg?
I guarantee that this one man has never taken the time to actually understand how quixtar works. And obviously this one man has nothing better to do with his life than to sit on the computer and get upset about a group of people using a system to do something with their lives and make some money.
Well, if that "group of people" actually made money this site probably wouldn't exist. What's that average income again? Before taxes and expenses and not including healthcare and retirement? $1,380 per year? Wow!
I wish you guys understood that Quixtar is nothing more than a vehicle to do something successful, just like your job is to you. Except I make lots more money than your job makes for you. :)
Notice the veiled income claim? Richelle has no idea how much money I make and doesn't offer personal numbers for comparison but still uses the opportunity to make derogatory assumptions. Anyone care to join Richelle in this game of speculation and guess how much money he/she is making each month from Quixtar?
It's about helping people be successful, and what's wrong with that? If you truly understood what you where talking about, and what this group of people is all about, you would understand that.
I guess you'd rather sit on the computer and criticize other people who have a dream of doing something significant with their lives, than doing something significant yourself.
More assumptions. Actually I stand at the computer. I realize it's odd but I like to stay on my feet.
Have you looked at what the BBB has to say? How about Dunn and Bradstreet? What about Forbes? How about the thousands of lawyer teams that all of our partner stores have had investigate our company before putting their names behind ours? Do you think Officemax or Barnes and Noble, or hundreds of other stores would risk their reputation by supporting us if we where a SCAM? Get the facts before you make a judgement call, and before you try to tell other people how to think.
Sincerely,
RichelleQuixtar IBOs are in deep poopy if they're relying on the lawyers at OfficeMax and Barnes & Noble to ensure the legitimacy of their business.
And for those who like to read, check out what Forbes has to say about Amway and Quixtar:
On a personal note, thanks to all you QBlog readers for sticking around when I wasn't around so much. You're what makes this blog worthwhile... even you Richelle.
Comments
"I guess you'd rather sit on the computer and criticize other people who have a dream of doing something significant with their lives, than doing something significant yourself." -Richelle
Ah, the ubiquitous search search for significance.
Richelle, or perhaps some other believer, could you please explain to me how selling soap rises to the level of 'significance'? Or selling TVs, vitamin supplements or water treatment systems, either?
Perhaps the aforementioned 'significance' is in reference to 'helping other people be successful'?
But then, given Quixtar's abysmal success rate, the vast majority of IBOs will be helping a lot of other people to failure, not success, and that seems reminiscent more of infamy than of significance, in my mind.
But that's just me.
You were right, QBlog. That email has got to be from page one of the playbook.
I think that one of Quixtar's partner stores must be the Psychic Friends Network. I have seen a lot of IBOs claim that they make more money from Quixtar than someone else does at their job, even though they have no basis for knowing. Next time you get one of those emails, you should ask them for some lottery numbers to play.
Richelle = Poohouse Tony = Mikebot =Ryan Hicks= Embot = Jenny7leebot = ProQuixbot
=
STUPID !!!
I keep seeing the word "significance" listed. On some WWDB websites for diamonds, they talk about achieving significance. What exactly does that mean?
I don't see diamonds helping anyone outside of the business. I would guess that some do, but my guess is that most are constantly replacing downline who quit so they really don't have the time to help anyone but themselves.
No whats funny is that Joe was a 4000pv Pin and Would have been making money had he not been buying 7 tapes a week, and had the unusual expense of flying to functions since he lived in Hawaii. The main reason he quit was because his sponsor told him to leave his finace. Joe says himself he would have been at least Platinum right now.
So whats that tell me? - It works for those who work it!! Joe was willing to work it, but didn't like all the meetings or his sponsor. I would have been mad too, but I would have just bought fewer tapes, attended only some of the functions, stayed with my finance and not quit the biz. I would have ignored my sponsor, just continued doing my thing, gone Platinum and made some decent money!
Joe you know how the plan works! You know that anyone who just does 100pv will make $7-$8 on their first check. And that if they sponsor 6 who do the same, and do 50pv to m/c... their check that month would be for over $100!! People who make $0 every month do it by choice! Its not some lottery.
And qblog, besides the google bombing - pick some relevant articles! I won't argue google bombing with you. Some call it seatch engine optimization, others "beating the systems", some "cheating the system" - like the article says, its a fine line.
But I could really care what Frobes had to say about Amway back in 1985 - my upline Platinum was like 2 years old!! Another article was from '91, my youngest IBO was 6!!
Why not talk about our Forbes ranking, or what Dunn & Bradstreet or the BBB say? Instead in true critic fashion you mainly pick articles talking about Amway and the business of yesteryear. And I just love the unbaised writing of some of those articles, and they call themselves the unbiased press?
Richelle may not know what you making, but if let's saying she's a Ruby making $70,000 a year, thats more than most people, so she might make that claim not knowing Qb exact income. Qb, why you you tell her, then she can confirm or correct herself.
df, that mathmatical equation was profound! Perhaps you can now share with us what you learned today in 5th grade science!!
Sorry for some of the typos - busy at work... typing too fast :(
Tony, you're an idiot.
Tony, feel free to point us to any other articles by Forbes.
Amway.com http://www.forbes.com/best/2001/0625/040.html
is actually a Forbes article about the company after they changed the name to "Quixtar."
Thanks for playing though, Big Time Tony.
In typical Tony fashion, he doesn't bother to check out the links before he comments about them.
He uses a similar method when it comes to FTC regulations of pyramid schemes. He shoots his mouth off first and asks questions never.
Tony, I may have been able to make some money if I went platinum, but in my opinion, it wasn't worth the effort. I honestly feel that you can build the business to a certain level on the wave of excitement, but sooner or later, all businesses reach a point when people start quitting and then a rare few can overcome it and move to higher pin levels. The vast majority cannot. I don't know if I would have been one of the few.
But in addition to my own situation, my upline told people to skip mortgage payments to buy tools, skip a meal to buy tools, sell heirloom jewelry to buy tools. There were people going bankrupt in our group, a couple lost their home because
they skipped making payments, a friend of mine said he couldn't justify buying cozy kids diapers when he could get twice as much for the same price at a local store.
What I saw were RUTHLESS businessmen in nice ties and suits. I saw a lot of deception and lies being told.
Even if I could make some money as a direct, I didn't want to be associated with people who ran their business that way.
I dind't like lying, although I was deceptive myself at times when I was showing the plan. I followed the fake it till you make it advice from my upline you see,
I know Tony said his upline isn't that way, but from what I understand, my upline was the typical and Tony's upline is the exception.
Tony> Why not talk about our Forbes ranking, or what Dunn & Bradstreet or the BBB say?
TAPESPEAK ALERT!!
Private Francishing in a Dot Com World,
Greg Duncan; RP891
Please list what forbes has to say. I haven't seen much. D&B is a credit rating report, so it is not relevent for business conduct. BBB does NOT support ANY BUSINESS!!!! Directly from the BBB website (www.bbb.org) we read: "As a matter of policy, the Better Business Bureau does not endorse any product, service or company."
Tony said: "Why not talk about our Forbes ranking, or what Dunn & Bradstreet or the BBB say? Instead in true critic fashion you mainly pick articles talking about Amway and the business of yesteryear. "
1. Forbes Ranking: what do you mean by this?
2. D&B: the D&B rating of a company is proprietary information, Tony. Only subscribers who PAY for it are allowed access to it. Did you PAY for the D&B report on Alticor? Or did you take your upline's word for it?
3. "Amway and the Business of yesteryear" - the point is, the major players (owners, kingpins) haven't changed. The name of the company may have changed, and the method of ordering may have changed, and the products may have changed, but the practices and preaching of the owners and kingpins hasn't. So who cares whether it's called AMWAY or QUIXTAR?
From page D-2 of the Quixtar Buisness Reference Guide:
http://www.quixtar.com/Documents/IWOV/VIS/010-EN/PDF/compendium.pdf
Dun & Bradstreet Reports
Dun & Bradstreet financial reports are not to be used in the course of registering new IBOs. This report pertains only to Quixtar’s creditworthiness and is not meant to be used as an investment rating. The business opportunity is not an investment security. All Dun & Bradstreet financial reports are confidential and reserved for the exclusive use of their subscribers. Although you may indicate Quixtar’s soundness when registering others into the business, using Dun & Bradstreet reports for such purpose is prohibited.
STRIKE ONE, Tony.
Better Business Bureau Membership
The Better Business Bureau (BBB) does not permit the use of its name in connection with advertising for products or services. The BBB name and symbol are federally registered service marks and, hence, using its name or symbol without permission may violate federal law. You should not use the name or seal of the BBB in any printed materials that go to the general public or in advertisements, nor should you represent or
imply to the public, either orally or in writing, that Quixtar or its products or services are endorsed by the BBB.
STRIKE TWO, Tony
Now what does Forbes have to say about Quixtar?
OUCH!
STRIKE THREE . . .
. . . . Yerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr outtahere!
Tony have you not seen the sales projection for Quixtar for this year! No not yesteryear!
http://mlmblog.typepad.com/blog/2005/08/quixtar_sales_f.html
I was in A/Q yesteryear for 16 years and its going down hill fast!
After looking over LawDawg's post Tony, the best advice someone could give you is for you to just: 'Put a sock in it!'
:-)
This is really sad, Tony. You continue to get obliterated by facts again and again.
All your fellow BOTS putting their heads together couldn't solve the major dilemma, which is how to make money at Quixtar.
None of you will EVER, and I mean EVER, be able to retire as a direct result of Quixtar.
Despite what your upline says, this business truly bites ass, and there is nothing any of you can do about it.
Lawdawg, I think you're about the only lawyer I've ever liked ;0)
You are all wasting your time at this "business" and are too intoxicated with greed and excitement to see through your drunken stupor.
But you all make for a good laugh. Bill "the fornicater" BRITT, Dextard, Greg Dumbkin, and Dark Crawford would all be proud of you.
But don't ask them for anything other than to be proud of you, because if it costs them any money or a second of their time, they couldn't give a rat's ass about some low level Quixtard.
92% - 97% of Amway Distributors Are out of Business in Five Years
http://www.amquix.info/humor/97_percent/97_percent.html
Alright, comments section is hard to read, but it's sooo darn interesting.
Tony, u do know that early retirement, 'freedom', residual income is all BS? you can't do any other mlm for 6 months?
Rocket> Lawdawg, I think you're about the only lawyer I've ever liked ;0)
Imran> Ditto. Reason, he is very non-lawyer like. Try reading a lawyer. A lawyer who writes simple and clear is not a very good lawyer, some ppl say ;)
This monday email is ...ditto delivery. C'mon, any new insult? Qrush was fresh at least.....
Tony:
Make no mistake about it Tony, Over the last several weeks I have definitely developed a soft spot in my heart for you. But dude, no offense, Lawdawg just made you look pretty bad with that BBB reference on Quixtar's own pdf download.
I'll put it into this time a football analogy:
You just fumbled the ball on your own 5 yard line, and the opposition scooped it up for the quick & easy 6.
Or in wrestling, you jumped from 3rd turn buckle into steel outside and nobody home.....
Signing up for Quixtar with kit and tapes: $350
cost of 300 PV: $800
cost of functions: $500
Getting masochist pleasures when caught breaknig Quixtar own rules: Priceless
Irman wrote:
"Or in wrestling, you jumped from 3rd turn buckle into steel outside and nobody home....."
LOL!!!
There's a mistake in:
http://www.amquix.info/humor/97_percent/97_percent.html
"The result in this case 92% have *quite* the Amway business in 5 years. "
Yes, quite :)
Not changes the article.
Hmm... what I see in mlmscam is someone who MIGHT have been able to break approximately even by getting to platinum IF he'd told his upline to mind his own business, but that would be breaking the "rules of edification", and that guy doesn't sound like the type to put up with that sort of thing. Moreover, he's glad he got blown out when he did, as he's come to realize that anything he DID make would have been dirty money. Fair assessment, MS?
Hey, are any of you prospects?? Am I showing you the plan? No. I'm simply stating fact. Actually I didn't even do THAT! I simply said, go see what the BBB says about us! I never said the BBB Endorses us!! I said why not talk about what the BBB or D&B says about us! So much for your 3 strikes, looks like I foul tipped a couple of those! Looks like the refs called "off sides" on lawdawg, and we got the ball back!
lawdawg, I wonder how successful of a lwayer you are with all the time you spend posting court references on here that maybe you and qblog read.
It still comes down to this. Qx, is a business. Its been deemed that MLM is a legal and legitment form of business. You may not like it! But it doesn't matter. You may not like the tools! But it doesn't matter. Tools are optional, I buy what I want. If I decide not to get LSOT, I don't, I in the past I have.
I think this business is a good opportunity if you're willing to do some work, and do some things that may make you uncomfortable. It's not for everyone, just like college isn't for everyone, or being a lawyer isn't for everyone. But I've decided its for me, and I'm willing to help anyone who wants it, even people not on my team.
I've already told you I don't care about %'s, I know the %'s that make it to 2nd degree Black-belt and above, play college sports, etc.
I've got a 22 yr old sponsor who's already hit 9000pv, I'm watching it work, I'm just following the gameplan laid out by him, and my other mentors. So I'm gonna continue to retail XS, and our other products. I'm gonna continue to make calls, STP, and sponsor people.
So lawdawg, until you can show me where the FTC now says MLM / Network Marketing is illegal, and Qx is gonna be shut down... you put a sock in it!
"It still comes down to this. Qx, is a business. Its been deemed that MLM is a legal and legitment form of business."
Special bonus points to anyone you can spot Tony's basic logical fallacy.
Quote : "But I've decided its for me, and I'm willing to help anyone who wants it, even people not on my team."
Tony, you have already stated you are not making any money. Are you helping others to do the same? I'm just curious how you are in a position to help and others when you have not yet made it work for yourself.
Tony>"I think this business is a good opportunity if you're willing to do some work, and do some things that may make you uncomfortable."
Like lie to people and to yourself?
I don't think you should work your "OWN" business and feel uncomfortable doing so. There are plenty of other employment and business options that won't destroy peoples lives and lay waste to your own.
"FTC now says MLM / Network Marketing is illegal,"
I've never made that claim. Once again, Lying Tony is trying to change the subject.
The claim I've made, and supported with legal authorities from FTC prosecutions, is:
Unless the majority of the products are sold to non-distributor customers then you are promoting a pyramid scheme.
Tony> I think this business is a good opportunity if you're willing to do some work, and do some things that may make you uncomfortable. It's not for everyone, just like college isn't for everyone, or being a lawyer isn't for everyone. But I've decided its for me, and I'm willing to help anyone who wants it, even people not on my team.
Joecool> Tony, that's amirable that you are willing to give the business a shot and even help others succeed. But the main theme I've seen on many discussion boards and from what I've personally seen, far too many people have to fail in order for a few to succeed in this business. It's true that some folks are lazy, some don't put in enough effort, but the numbers provided by QUIXTAR indicate that success is unlikely.
Even if Tony succeeds, there will be hundreds who don't.
I"ve seen people lose their homes, build tremendous debt and neglect their kids. All due to the sage advice given to them by upline. I know that the IBO can decide to do otherwise, but those fully indoctrinated into the business generally submit to upline and do what they are told.
lawdawg, I never said that you did make that claim. I said until you could, put a sock in it. Until the FTC says Qx and MLMs are illegal - I don't care what You think! Get it?
And Joe, you can say that in order for me to succeed others have to fail. But thats as stupid as me saying in order for you to get a college degree others have to drop out. Am I right? I mean if only 55% of people who enter college ever get a 4yr degree, doesn't that mean if you get one, someone else does not?
What about in Martial Arts, only 1 in 6000 ever get to 2nd degree Blackbelt. So since I did, that means that over 5,000 did not. But couldn't ANY of those 5,000 have stuck with it and done it? Just becuase I got mine deosn't mean that any of those others HAD to fail! Any of them could have done what I did and got their 2nd dan BB also!
What about a HS football team? 60 players tryout only 22 starting positions. 38 may be on the team but won't start! But the ones that bust their ass and earn a spot, Will be starter!
Only we don't have a certain # of starters! Its closer to the college or TKD analogy. Anyone who works hard enough to get the degree can do so. Just cause you and I both start TKD or college the same day doesn't mean that only one of us will get our Blackbelt or BS degree. If we both do the work consistently, we can both get the belt.
And the "uncomfortable" stuff I'm talking about is not lieing or cheating - its getting out of your comfort zone. Its making phone calls, its talking to people, its getting up in front of a crowd and doing a presentation.
And LD, you said "Unless the majority of the products are sold to non-distributor customers then you are promoting a pyramid scheme."
T> So what "majority" 51%?? So is it 70% then or just 51%. Make up your mind. Guess what, its neither!
Anyone who thinks that the average IBO should be retailing more than they use themselves - and not just More, but 70% of what they buy, is nuts!
The purpose of this business is to give people the opportunity to own a business. Its buy thru yourself, and teach others to do the same, while you also retail to some customers. How Many customers?? Well you can retail to 10 member/clients, or do $100 to m/c, or do 50points to m/c. Then your retail requirement is met!
If the 70% rule referred to Retail sales (which it doesn't) that would mean that an IBO could only do 30pv if he were going to be @ 100pv (70pv to m/c). So if an IBO were at 300pv personally, then he'd have to Retail 700PV to m/c to get a bonus!!
Yea, that makes sense?? The IBO retailing 70pv to m/c gets a bonus, but the IBO doing 300pv to m/c and 300 thru personal use, well he's promoting a pyramid! Get a clue!
"Its buy thru yourself, and teach others to do the same, while you also retail to some customers. How Many customers?? Well you can retail to 10 member/clients, or do $100 to m/c, or do 50points to m/c. Then your retail requirement is met!"
FALSE.
Quixtar's retail rules are NOT the same as the FTC and many states' guidelines for what constitutes a pyramid scheme.
You can't possibly be so stupid that you can't understand this after it's been explained to you a dozen times.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are obfuscating, though I'm beginning to suspect you're mentally disabled.
Here it is again - the United States Federal Trade Commission's definition of an illegal MLM:
"'Prohibited marketing scheme' means a pyramid sales scheme, Ponzi scheme, chain marketing scheme, or other marketing plan or program in which a person participates under a condition that he or she make a payment, directly or indirectly, to receive the right, license or opportunity to derive income as a participant PRIMARILY from: (1) the recruitment of additional recruits by the participant, program promoter or others; or (2) non-retail sales made to or by such recruits.
'Retail Sales' means sales of products, services, or Business Ventures by Defendants, their successors, assigns, agents, servants, employees, and those persons in active concert or participation with them to third-party end users. Retail Sales do not include sales made by participants in a prohibited marketing scheme or multi-level marketing program to other participants or recruits in that scheme or program or to such a participants' own accounts."
Tony> And Joe, you can say that in order for me to succeed others have to fail. But thats as stupid as me saying in order for you to get a college degree others have to drop out. Am I right? I mean if only 55% of people who enter college ever get a 4yr degree, doesn't that mean if you get one, someone else does not?
Joecool> Tony, if 55% of the quixtar people made money, I would not be a critic of the business. If you attend a quixtar function, the diamond and maybe a few directs make some money. The vast majority do not. It's more like a 1-2% success rate. You can't really compare the business to TKD either, because TKD (correct me if I'm wrong) takes a degree of skill as well. Quixtar is promoted as a "level playing field" where everyone can succeed. And you can't compare it to football, because that also takes a degree of skill, and possibly physical size. Yes, hard work can make marginal players better, but that would not be a good comparison to a business.
Tony> The purpose of this business is to give people the opportunity to own a business. Its buy thru yourself, and teach others to do the same, while you also retail to some customers. How Many customers?? Well you can retail to 10 member/clients, or do $100 to m/c, or do 50points to m/c. Then your retail requirement is met!
Joecool> That's my point Tony, if you buy from yourself, do a little retail, then the big pins are making the majority of their money from the purchases of the people in the business and not from retail customers. If the income is not from retail customers, then the IBO's pockets are being drained to make a few people rich.
Of course there are some IBO's who made money from retailing (like Deb), but those are rare.
Hey LawDawg,
Bill Britt would be familiar with ponzi schemes right? LOL
He would.
I'll give credit where it's due. Although Tony is lying about what constitutes a pyramid scheme, he is correct that a "pyramid scheme" (like he's promoting - with almost all the emphasis on recruiting rather than retail sales) is different from a "ponzi scheme."
But I'm sure that if Tony were promoting PIPS he'd be lying about the definition of a Ponzi scheme, too. He's just that type of guy.
:?)
Here's more proof that Tony is clueless about the legal definition of pyramid schemes.
To the clear definition of a "Prohibited Marketing Scheme" quoted above from FTC v. Five Star Auto Club, which clearly excludes sales for personal consumption from "retail sales", you can add the same rule applied by the FTC in shutting down Trek Alliance http://www.ftc.gov/os/2003/08/trekpreinj.pdf:
"For purposes of this defintion 'sales of products to ultimate users' does not include sales to other participants or recruits in the marketing program or to participants' own accounts"
or from the Bestline case, under California law:
"The Bestline plan, as alleged in the complaint and found by the court, offered compensation for recruitment based upon sales to the recruits. This element of the Bestline plan, which is what makes it a chain scheme under California law, serves to increase the certainty of deception by diverting the effort of all distributors from retail sales to the sales of distributorships. A pyramid sales plan under which the compensation for recruitment is limited to "payment based upon sales made to persons who are not participants in the scheme and who are not purchasing in order to participate in the scheme," does not come within the definition of endless chain schemes set forth in Penal Code section 327. The section, however, declares the policy of this state that such schemes are deceptive when compensation is offered "for introducing one or more additional persons into participation in the scheme" based upon sale to the person introduced. It is on the basis of this policy that participation in such schemes is made criminal."
And frankly, if there is any genuine doubt about what was intended by "retail sales" in In re Amway, you need look no further than the original FTC order on MLMs disguised as pyramid schemes - the landmark Koscot opinion relied on by virtually every court since.
In re Amway was carved out as an exception to the rule in Koscot. And in Koscot, there is no question whatsoever that "retail sales" do NOT include sales to participants for their own use, as the FTC's injunction indicates. It prohibited Koscot from:
"Offering, operating, or participating in, any marketing or sales plan or program wherein a participant is given or promised compensation (1) for inducing other persons to become participants in the plan or program, or (2) when a person induced by the participant induces another person to become a participant in the plan or program, Provided, That the term "compensation," as used in this paragraph only, does not mean any payment based on actually consummated sales of goods or services to persons who are not participants in the plan or program and who do not purchase such goods or services in order to resell them.
The United States Discrict Court Judge for the Western District of Michigan, Chief Judge Robert Holmes Bell, in Amway v. P&G also understood this very clear rule:
"A pyramid scheme is one in which the profits of a few people at the 'top' of an organization are made _primarily_ from those below them within the organization, rather than from sales to persons outside the organization."
You can say the emphasis is on recruiting. We emphasize retail also. I don't know what it was like on Your team, but we do Spa Days, Nutrition clinics, Product demo days, XS sampling booths, PEP (Product Education Program) Seminars, and Every week at our Open we do Product of the Week!
LD, call me a liar all you want, perhaps you should look up the definition of lie! I have always told the truth! You may not agree with my definition of a pyramid, or my view on the 70% rule, but it is what I belive to be true! If the FTC has a problem with us, then tell them to shut us down! But thats not gonna happen, because we follow the guidlelines set-up by them!
We have a break-away, @ 7500pv! Therefore we're not a pyramid. If the majority of an IBO's sales had to be to retail customers, there would be NO mlm's. It's nearly impossible to retail nearly 3X what you're using! Especially when you have members that want to become IBOs!
LD, whats your point anyways that the FTC thinks were a pyramid? Didn't they rule that were Not?? Honestly LD, I don't care, if its illegal, let them tell us. Let them shut it down. I don't think it should be illegal. Tell me why you think it should be illegal to have a business where only 30-40% of sales is to customers and 60-70% is by participants. Whats your logic that That should be illegal?
And Joe, I wasn't talking about skill level of TKD or football versus business. I was talking about the #'s of people making it! If only 1 in 6000 make it to 2nd degree Blackbelt in TKD, just because I make it to Blackbelt doesn't mean that those other 5999 HAD to fail - ANY of them could have made it, they just didn't!
Its like my bowling analogy. Just because 10 bowlers bowl a total of 2200 points, doesn't mean just because 1 bowler increases his score from 150 to 250, that another MUST decrease 100pts - they can ALL increase their score!
Just cause I go Platinum, doesn't mean 100 others HAVE to fail! Any of them can go Platinum too! Theres 340,000 IBOs right now and 6 billion people on the planet! Not everyone in the world could be Platinum, but if it takes 25 couples at 300pv to be platinum, all 340,000 could be Platinum next year, and then even all of Those people could be Platinum! Now its not gonna grow that quick and not everybody's gonna get in. But the ones who work hard enough will, like my 22 yr old sponsor making $2500/month! And my 42 yr Diamond making $50,000/month!
The Tae Kwon Do/University/Football Team/Etc is yet another fallacious analogy. The comparison is invalid. There may be, for example, only 1 in 6000 that make it to 2nd degree black belt, but there's nothing specifically preventing any of the others. What one gains is not taken from others. You could have an entire scout troop go eagle scout if they felt like it.
Whereas, in a pyramid scheme (ie with negligible outside retail) the vast majority of income for those in profit comes at the EXPENSE of those not in profit. THEREFORE, any time someone DOES "succeed" there necessarily MUST be MANY that are at a net loss. You can't have a winner without a lot of losers. What one gains hs largely been taken from others. If the losers stop playing and aren't replaced, the whole thing dries up and blows away.
The organization is mature. The proportions have not changed significantly in years, and barring a major restructuring are not going to. The rules don't make it so it has to be this way, it's just the way it is. There's widespread violation of the rules, and precedent from other cases shows the law would not be kind.
" Tell me why you think it should be illegal to have a business where only 30-40% of sales is to customers and 60-70% is by participants. Whats your logic that That should be illegal?"
It IS illegal. As for the logic: http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2004/08/single-most-important-word-in-mlm.html
As far as you lying Tony, you lied about the FTC's legal standards for pyramid schemes. Here you go:
BIG TIME TONY:"Include the sellers of the product" That means me. I'm still an end-user consumer. Some people misinterpret the 70% rule as meaning "Retail sales" to "outside" customers. It simply Doesn't say that! Sells to ones self count. The only rule that the FTC has imposed regarding Required sales to outside customers is the "M/C rule" which says you have to have 10 m/c sales, 50pv to m/c or $100 to m/c."
THE UNITED STATES FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION:"'Prohibited marketing scheme' means a pyramid sales scheme, Ponzi scheme, chain marketing scheme, or other marketing plan or program in which a person participates under a condition that he or she make a payment, directly or indirectly, to receive the right, license or opportunity to derive income as a participant PRIMARILY from: (1) the recruitment of additional recruits by the participant, program promoter or others; or (2) non-retail sales made to or by such recruits.
'Retail Sales' means sales of products, services, or Business Ventures by Defendants, their successors, assigns, agents, servants, employees, and those persons in active concert or participation with them to third-party end users. Retail Sales do not include sales made by participants in a prohibited marketing scheme or multi-level marketing program to other participants or recruits in that scheme or program or to such a participants' own accounts."
The Single Most Important Word In MLM.
In am earlier post I quoted the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals opinion in U.S. v. Gold Unlimited as a preview of the legal difference between a legitimate multilevel marketing business and a pyramid scheme disguised as an MLM company. The key distinguishing factor for the Sixth Circuit was something it called an "emphasis on recruitment versus sales." What does this mean?
That's where "primarily" comes in. It's the key word in the Federal Trade Commission's definition of a "prohibited marketing scheme" (i.e. an "illegal pyramid scheme"). The following is the definition offered by the FTC and approved by the court in FTC v. Five Star Auto Club:
'Prohibited marketing scheme' means a pyramid sales scheme, Ponzi scheme, chain marketing scheme, or other marketing plan or program in which a person participates under a condition that he or she make a payment, directly or indirectly, to receive the right, license or opportunity to derive income as a participant primarily from: (1) the recruitment of additional recruits by the participant, program promoter or others; or (2) non-retail sales made to or by such recruits.
'Retail Sales' means sales of products, services, or Business Ventures by Defendants, their successors, assigns, agents, servants, employees, and those persons in active concert or participation with them to third-party end users. Retail Sales do not include sales made by participants in a prohibited marketing scheme or multi-level marketing program to other participants or recruits in that scheme or program or to such a participants' own accounts.
There are several extremely important points to understand in this definition.
First, there is the definition of the type of plan that is potentially subject to this definition. There are two key elements of such a plan: (1) the payment by a participant (not necessarily in money, I'll talk about that later) for the right to particpate in the compensation plan; and, (2) income not primarily generated by selling products or services to retail customers who aren't themselves particpants in the plan.
The latter element is expressed by probiting schemes in which "income" is derived "primarily" from either the recruitment of additional recruits or "non-retail sales" made to or by the participants recruits.
Second, there is a clear definition of "retail sales" that exempts purchases made by the paricipants (or "distributors" or "IBOs") for their own use from being considered as legitimate retail sales. In other words, you cannot claim to be operating a legitimate MLM marketing a product or service where most of the income is generated from purchases made by the "distributors" themselves for their own self-consumption.
The Third important thing to take from this definition is the meaning and use of the word primarily by the FTC. In this definition, the word refers to whether the income comes from recruiting or self-consumption or whether it comes from actual sales to retail customers who aren't partcipating in the compensation plan.
What Does Primarily Mean?
It means more than half. Many states have anti-pyramid statutes that mirror this language. For example, the Maryland statute defines a pyramid scheme as follows:
"Pyramid promotional scheme" means any plan or operation by which a participant gives consideration for the opportunity to receive compensation to be derived primarily from any person's introduction of other persons into participation in the plan or operation rather than from the sale of goods, services, or other intangible property by the participant or other persons introduced into the plan or operation.
"Compensation" includes payment based on a sale or distribution made to a person who is either a participant in a plan or operation or who, upon making payment, then has the right to become a participant.
This very issue was discussed by the Maryland court of appeals in Schrader v. State. One of the issues in that case was whether there was a sufficiently clear meaning to the word "primarily". The court held that there was a definite meaning to the word "primarily", explaining:
a pyramid promotional scheme is an operation in which a participant's compensation is "to be derived primarily from" recruitment of other participants into the operation rather than from the sale of goods or services. The word at issue in the statute is "primarily" . . .
We believe the word "primarily," as used in [the Statute] possesses a common and generally accepted meaning. Webster's New World Dictionary (2d College ed. 1982) defines "primarily" as "mainly; principally." In quantifiable terms, "primarily" is commonly understood to suggest a figure representing more than 50 percent. Thus, the definition of "pyramid promotional scheme" in [the Statute] imposes a standard requiring that participants in a pyramid operation derive more than 50 percent of their compensation from recruitment for the operation to fall within the definition. We find nothing ambiguous about the term "primarily" as used in that definition.
The court in Schrader, like the court in U.S. v. Gold Unlimited, gave a very concise explanation of pyramid schemes disguised as MLMs:
Pyramiding is a type of multi-level marketing operation which theoretically serves as a method of distributing a company's products to the public. Participants in the operation are spread out over various distribution levels through which products are resold until they reach the consumer. Id. However, because "one profits merely by being a link in the product distribution chain, the emphasis is on recruiting more investor-distributors rather than on retailing products." Note, Pyramid Schemes: Dare to be Regulated, 61 Georgetown L.J. 1257, 1259 (1973).
Why Is Primarily Part Of The Rule?
The reason these schemes are illegal is because it is a mathematical certainty that the vast majority of participants in a recruiting scheme will not be able to recruit enough additional members to realize a return on their investment. In my next post, I'll go into the mathematics of a recruiting pyramid and why this is true. Sufffice it to say for now that if one cannot make a PROFIT without recruiting more people under them, that means that most participants in the scheme will lose money. Hence, recruiting schemes are illegal.
There is little or no practical difference between a product based pyramid scheme and a chain referral scheme or Ponzi scheme with no product at all.
Here's an example to illustrate what I mean:
Let's say I want to start a new pyramid scheme. I decide that I want my pyramid scheme particpants to pay $100 each as their entry fee and that I'll pay back $35 on each membership in a complex compensation scheme to the various upline for each new partcipant. The remaining $65 I'll keep as profit. I can't just ask for cash payments, however, because that would be too obvious. Indeed, that would be a "pay to play" pyramid scheme - akin to a "gifting club" or the "airplane game", both of which are likely end with the promoters being criminally indicted.
What I do instead is find a product - a "widget," let's say- that I can get from the supplier for $1 and that has or would have an ordinary retail market price of $1.50. I charge each new particpant in my scheme $101 to buy a widget and join the scheme with the right to recruit more widget buyers. The new participant and his upline share in the $35 pyramid kickback - which I'll now refer to as a rebate - or even more deceptively - a "discount." I make $65 profit and anyone who can recruit enough people buying widgets underneath them can eventually make a profit off their small share of the $35 kickback on each sale.
What practical difference is there between this example and simply taking an up-front cash payment from each participant with no product at all? The difference in fair market value could be much less than in this example - say 20% to create this "pyramid premium" that is used fund the pyramid compensation scheme. The effect is still generally the same. Customers outside the scheme aren't interested in paying more for the products, which seriously curtails the ability of the "distributors" to sell the products outside the scheme. Thus, little or no money comes into the "marketing" venture from anybody other than its own participants. Again, as a matter of mathematical certainty, a person can only profit in such a scheme because several or many people are losing money in their downline to fund this "profit."
If an MLM's product is primarily sold to actual customers who buy the product at the MLM's price and who don't participate in the "business opportunity", it practically guarantees that the "product" is not a cover for a pyramid scheme. Understand that the "product" can be a shill for an illegal scheme in two ways: (1) it might not be a real product at all - e.g. those one page "reports" that are "sold" in chain letter schemes that tell you how to perpetuate the scheme or books, tapes and seminars like those sold in "Dare to Be Great", that the court explained had little or minimal value to those outside the scheme; or, (2) it may be a real product but sold at an unreal "pyramid premium" price (as in my widget example). If it is the latter, there will not be a significant market for the product. If there is little or no reasonable retail market (i.e., the products aren't price competitive) the only people likely to buy them are the participants in the scheme. The only way for participants to make money is to recruit more participants to make the purchases and we are back to square one - with the vast majority of participants losing money so that a small number can profit.
Thus, we have "primarily" - the single most important word in multilevel marketing.
"Tell me why you think it should be illegal to have a business where only 30-40% of sales is to customers and 60-70% is by participants. Whats your logic that That should be illegal?"
- It IS illegal! That's the point.
Besides that, a 'closed' system as you describe above just trades $ amongst the participants - with a cut going to the company for no effort what-so-ever. 30%-40% outside business is not a very good plan at all - you'll be lucky to cover the cut you lose to the company.
Put $5 a day into a sock, and at the end of the month, 'pay' yourself. You'll be inifinitely better off.
from Tony:
"I simply said, go see what the BBB says about us! I never said the BBB Endorses us!!"
We never claimed that you said that. What we are saying is that you, as well as other IBOs, are the ones who are doing the endorsing of quixtar through the BBB, which, according to quixtar's business compendium, is totally illegal.
Tony> The purpose of this business is to give people the opportunity to own a business. Its buy thru yourself, and teach others to do the same, while you also retail to some customers.
DI> OK, so the emphasis is on recruiting new IBOs.
Tony, two messages later> You can say the emphasis is on recruiting. We emphasize retail also.
DI> So which is emphasized Tony? Make up your mind!
Tony> It's nearly impossible to retail nearly 3X what you're using!
DI> Actually, Tony, that is what REAL retail businesses do. They use none (or very little) and retail the rest. Only an idiot who has no clue about how actual businesses work would make a ridiculous claim like that. YOU ARE NOT A REAL RETAIL BUSINESS.
Tony> legitment
DI> Tony, for god's sake, learn to spell already. L-E-G-I-T-I-M-A-T-E. Does BWW have spelling tutor tapes?
Oh, and lawDawg, the detail you put into explaining pyramids above is amazing, and I enjoyed reading it. Unfortunately, it's going to be lost on Tony. It's obvious that he is incapable of reading and comprehending anything longer than two sentences.
Tony,
You keep on making analogies about the success rate of the business to other things such as TKD, college, etc. Do you not see the inherit flaw in these? For example, in college, I started my first freshman biology course which had 35 people in it. At the end of the semester, only 20 were left, of that 10-15 passed. Therefore, we could say only a small percent of those who start will actually pass. In Quixtar, also only a small percent of people make it. Here, however, is the critical difference: In biology, each student is working rather independently. Yes, they will do some study together, but for the most part, the performance is based on the individual, not the group. In Quixtar, the only PRACTICAL way to make it is to have a whole slew of people in your organization all making purchases into that organization all the while, the money that you get, as the representative ‘top’ of that group, is that which is filtered out from their purchases. If you take a realistic cross-section of that group, you will find that at any time in the business, you will have to have hundreds of people losing money for every one person that is successful. Does that make sense?
The more I read, the more I believe that Quixtar will never have a legal problem. The other groups under it might, because of the tools, however.
If I want to buy primarily from myself, and sell retail once in a while, I don't believe that I am breaking any law. (Before you say, but that is illegal, please read on.)
The laws are set up to protect us. The FTC does not want thousands of people being duped into paying 42 dollars on something, and not earning anything in return unless they get others into the business. Most pyramid schemes are like this. The difference by something such as Quixtar is obvious: People can save money just on buying things for themselves. This is no different than a place like Sam's Club, CostCo, etc. - where people pay for membership, and receive nothing in return but the right to buy things at certain prices.
Quixtar has two differences from those, however: 1) It is primarily online; and 2) In addition to those savings one can receive, they can also earn money based on the volume they buy or sell.
If Quixtar people were only earning/saving money based on bonuses they receive from buying or selling, then I could forsee a problem. But since they are saving money on their own products, and anybody they get into the business has the ability to do the same: save money without recruiting others into the business, I don't see that there will ever be a problem.
I'm actually beginning to think that the 'primarily' rule would not even apply here.
Has anybody seriously considered the following bit of logic?
Many people are assuming that Quixtar is a typical MLM, in which it is required to bring in 51% of its sales through retailing. But if one views it instead as a subscription business, such as Costco, with elements of MLM added in only as incentive to draw others into Quixtar (much as CostCo might advertise).
And, to preempt the argument that Quixtar itself seems to portray itself as a retailer: A) Being that it is password-protected, it is clearly showing that it is exclusive to members; and B) It still does perform retail sales, and makes more money off people buying at retail than cost.
You guys just don't get it. You're still hung up on prices. If I think something costs too much, I don't use it. I mainly buy the Protein bars, and drinks which are the same or cheaper than the competition, and I buy some vitamins & supplements, and other purchases such as Adidas gym shoes, Levi jeans, Haggar dress pants, etc. And every month I do 100-150pv personally, and with my m/c's my personal circle is ususally over 300pv.
You keep saying in order for the Platinum at the top of the group to make $$ the people under him have to be losing. This is wrong! Why can't you guys understand that you get compensated for the level you're at!! Small business = small bonus, big business = Big bonus!
When I started my own TKD branch school (P/T, 2 days a week), I started out with 1 student, and I only made $30 that month. But then I got 4 students, and then 8, and as my branch grew, so did my profit.
It's the same here. When its just you, your bonus is small. When you've got 4, and then 8, you're bonus is bigger!
Now maybe during the time your bonus is only $100 a month, and your expenses are $150 a month - you're "losing money". But I look at this as I'm investing in myself, in my business. Sure I could not be on SOT and save $40 a month, I could not have a website or be on Kate and save another $45 a month, I could never go to an Open meeting a save $3 a week, but I look at that as an investment in myself and in my business.
I knew if I went to college, I would have a better chance at getting a higher paying job. So after my 1st year, when I PAID $5,000, and on top of That, Borrowed $4800- I didn't look at that as spending money... I was investing in myself!! And after 3 years and No Degree, and tuition had gone up Every semester, I had now spent/borrowed over $30,000!!!
Sure I had friends who Didn't go to college, they just went straight into the workforce, and they didn't have $30,000 in debt and expenses. They had actually been working F/T and MAKING money!!
But I knew I was investing in myself! It was hard work, I had freinds that dropped out with no degree, some that stopped at an Associates, and some that never did it at all. But just like my Blackbelt in TKD, I set a goal to get my Bachelors and I did!
I'm sorry some of you didn't hit your goal in the business, whether it was because of a sh!tty sponsor or because you just decided it wasn't for you, or you just didn't want to work it. But thats not me. I'm willing to do what it takes. And I'm gonna find more people like me. Some will quit, some will run with it.
But I will find the ones like my sponsor, who are tearing it up! 22 years old, 7500+, 150+ people in his group! You think there aren't others that can do what he did. He started at zero, just like everyone. His first check was $7 - but he built it bigger, and now is reaping some rewards. And he's just getting started!
small biz = small bonus
Big biz = Big bonus
Investment vs Expense
Does any of That make sense??
"I'm sorry some of you didn't hit your goal in the business, whether it was because of a sh!tty sponsor or because you just decided it wasn't for you, or you just didn't want to work it. But thats not me. I'm willing to do what it takes. And I'm gonna find more people like me. Some will quit, some will run with it."
AWESOME, TONY! Now why don't you take that drive and apply it to something other than a saturated pyramid scheme?
Why sell yourself so short selling Amway products, alienating your friends, family and co-workers when literally millions have gone before you and already spoiled the harvest?
If you have what it takes, why not do something worthy of your vast drive and talent?
I know the answer.
Got tapes?
I was a student at Tony's TKD School, and he told me I could become a blackbelt if only I "listened to one more tape"
Argh... Can someone address issues, instead of the Tony vs. LawDawg et al bickering?
Tony,
What is your projected timeline for recovering your investment?
Ezzie,
I thought LawDawg was addressing issues...
The problem with what you outlined above is that Quixtar does not bill itself as a buyer's club. It bills itself as a business oportunity.
Ezzie,
A few comments. The first is the idea you seemed to suggest (an online buying club) is illegal in a few states, thus, the corporation started to enforce the 10 clients / $100 / 50 PV rule in 2002 or 2003. They did this to stay legal in across all the states of the US.
The next, a 10-45% discount on prices does NOT place the prices cheaper then they are at other outlets. For brief example (looking at the things that I use on a regular basis. I do this because that is the primary focus of the BWW team as a whole --> redirect the buying power of the things you already use).
Popcorn:
Q price (All Q prices are IBO cost): $15.30 / 24 - $0.64 Unit
Local (this is my local store price): $5.77 / 18 - $0.32 Unit
Toothpaste:
Q price: $4.10 / 6.75 oz. - $0.61 Unit
Local: $1.88 / 12 oz. - $0.16
Liquid Hand Soap:
Q Price: $5.05 / 8.45 oz. - $0.60 Unit
Local: $1.99 / 11.25 oz. - $0.18 Unit
I am not going to do a comprehensive price comparison here, but out of the things that I buy on a regualr basis, every single one of them is cheaper for the same quality and use consumption that at Quixtar. Lets not forget that Q adds a shipping fee onto the order, the local store does not. It takes 7-10 days for standard shipping, I can walk to the local store in 30 minutes. Driving is 2 minutes.
The only arguement is the tapespeak line "no one ever saved their way to wealth", and that I counter with a lot more people have than have SPENT their way to wealth. Even John Sestina made that claim on a BWW SOT before.
DIRECT QUESTION FOR TONY
Out of the 150+ people in your sponsors group, how many are making money vs. how many are losing money? You are apparently one of his hottest guys and by your own profession on a previous post, you claim that you are at an average net income of ZERO. Does my claim that for one person to succeed many many more must be failing seem to fit your sponsors group?
Thanks,
X
Ezzie,
The problems with your theory are several.
First, if the only people who are buy are the people who join, then the only way to make the promised rewards is to recruit more people to join. It is a mathematical certainty that the vast majority of participants will lose money.
Second, your assumption about what is happening in Quixtar simply is not true. If Quixtar IBOs were joining because they wanted the fine products at discount prices (as opposed to joining to make money in a recruiting scheme) then we would see either a low turnover rate or a high level of clients/members created out of all those millions who quit. We don't see either. The turnover rate is 50% of the while distributor force every year and 75% do not renew after their first year. On the other side of the issue, there is only one (1) member or client for every four (4) IBOs. So, "NO," people aren't joining for the value they see in the products so much as they are joining the recruiting opportunity and becoming quickly dissatisfied.
Third, there would be no need for all that ridiculous "motivation" if your assumption were correct.
Fourth, a true, out and out pyramid scheme behaves exactly as you describe - everybody joins up and buys products for their own use or consumption. That "product" may be just a personal "internet mall" (like Skybiz) or health and beauty products (like Trek, Equinox or Koscot) or a "report" (chain letter schemes).
Tony> Just cause I go Platinum, doesn't mean 100 others HAVE to fail! Any of them can go Platinum too! Theres 340,000 IBOs right now and 6 billion people on the planet! Not everyone in the world could be Platinum, but if it takes 25 couples at 300pv to be platinum, all 340,000 could be Platinum next year, and then even all of Those people could be Platinum! Now its not gonna grow that quick and not everybody's gonna get in. But the ones who work hard enough will, like my 22 yr old sponsor making $2500/month! And my 42 yr Diamond making $50,000/month!
Joecool> Tony, you said your sponsor makes about $2500 a month or so. So let's just say for example, the group of 100 IBO's retail $50 each, or a total of $5000 in retail for the group. And let's say that 25% of that $5000 is retail profit. That's $1250 profit for the entire group, and I'm guessing that's a generous assumption. You still following me?
Where does the rest of the bonus money come from in order for your direct to make $2500??
Your analogy of TKD, college, or football is inaccurate. I think a better analogy is a card tournament. 2000 people enter and pay $10,000 each. The final 6-8 people left end up with the lions share of the money, another 100 or so break even for making it to the top 10-15%, the house keeps some money for running the tournament, and about 1800 are broke having lost $10,000 each. Tony, this is the quixtar business in a nutshell.
I think your spot on about the Tournament Joe.
The only difference between that and Quix is the folks getting into the card tournament have the beforehand understanding that they might lose that much money and are prepaired for that chance.
Closed systems versus open systems is where Tony's analogies fall on their collective faces. In an open system, like a college class, there can be a myriad of outcomes. Everyone could pass with A, or everyone could fail and drop out after the first test. Percentages are only used to predict the most likely outcome.
With closed systems, the outcomes are already predeterimed, and it is just a matter of who is going to finish where. A martial arts tournament is a good example. There are different classes and different types of martial arts, but there can only be one winner in each class. The number of participants at each level is predetermined, and the question is not will someone win and someone lose, but who will win and who will lose.
With Quixtar, if there is no outside retail, it is a closed system, just like Joecool's card game. The money coming into the system will only come from IBO's, and everyone paying into the system will get a piece back, but only after Quixtar takes their 66% cut. Again, no outside sales, and IBO's can only be paid back in bonuses $.33 for every $1 they spend. By definition, the participants are losing money as a collective.
However, if there are outside people paying say to watch the card game, then there is a chance every player can win. Say there is a $10 fee to watch the four card players, and 100 people are watching for a total of $1,000. Say the people hosting the event takes half leaving $500 as a bonus prize available to the players at the table. Now, in theory, every player can end up with more money then they started, as they paid $110, and the total pot is now $900. Split evenly, that is $225/player. Of course the split won't be even, but the potential is there.
With business, and I mean any business including MLM and traditional, there needs to be outside "viewers," i.e. customers. These people pay for a service, i.e., the right to view the card game, but never take money away from the pot. Without these outside payers, the system is closed, and the outcome is predetermined. But with these players, the system is open, and every player has a chance to win.
By the way, here's what the BBB has to say about Quixtar. http://www.grandrapids.bbb.org/commonreport.html?bureau=grandrapids&code=&compid=11002927&national=Y 27 complaints in the past 3 years, or just under 1 every 6 weeks. Not bad for a company this size, but working customer service before, we always worked on the rule of 10. That is, for every complainer, there were 10 others with the same complaint that just didn't voice it.
Has anyone ever read the label on quixtar vitamins? It says it can repair damaged DNA. For any one with knowledge of science or DNA, they are claiming the vitamins cure cancer!!!
Another IBO> Has anyone ever read the label on quixtar vitamins? It says it can repair damaged DNA. For any one with knowledge of science or DNA, they are claiming the vitamins cure cancer!!!
Joecool> (sarcasm) But the facts don't count in quixtar. Fake it till you make it.
It works because my upline said so. They must work, look at bill britt.... Oops, retract that one. LOL
Hey Tony! Giving up, huh? You have a very good habit of ignoring points you can't tackle...
OK - a lot of questions and answers:
The first is the idea you seemed to suggest (an online buying club) is illegal in a few states, thus, the corporation started to enforce the 10 clients / $100 / 50 PV rule in 2002 or 2003. They did this to stay legal in across all the states of the US.
Though I don't understand why such a thing would be illegal, I'd be curious in which states this was the case. Do you have a link that shows this to be the case?
I am not going to do a comprehensive price comparison here, but out of the things that I buy on a regualr basis, every single one of them is cheaper for the same quality and use consumption that at Quixtar. Lets not forget that Q adds a shipping fee onto the order, the local store does not. It takes 7-10 days for standard shipping, I can walk to the local store in 30 minutes. Driving is 2 minutes.
Granted, not everything is cheaper. I am actually wondering if anyone has a comprehensive price comparison chart. Then again, not everything in CostCo is cheaper either. Obviously, a person has to use their own common sense. From personal experience, I can tell you that SA8 works out to be much cheaper for me than Tide did, and is a little better at cleaning. (I used SA8 before I ever heard of Quixtar - see the Neutral forum "Can anybody help this guy out" for more...)
As to shipping... in my first month on Quixtar (this month) I've gotten everything in 1-2 days. Maybe this is because NYC has lots of stores; I'm not sure. But that is my experience thus far.
As to "nobody ever saved their way to wealth" - that I completely disagree with. Any study of the wealthy (not those who earn a lot; those who are wealthy) shows that they have become wealthy by saving and investing their savings. Anybody with a basic understanding of economics or finance understands that $1000 today is worth over $100,000 in 50 years. (I'm 22; that was 10% compounded, though my mutual fund has averaged 13.5 the last 16 years...) If I change that to 25 years, and instead of $1000 make it $25/month, then I should have over $33,000 (from a Present Value $381 investment). That's just from savings: Not any bonuses or earnings. (You can reduce it to $10/month, I still make over $13,000)
First, if the only people who are buy are the people who join, then the only way to make the promised rewards is to recruit more people to join. It is a mathematical certainty that the vast majority of participants will lose money.
That's not true. That was my point earlier: I don't need to get others to join to save money. (And as I said in the other thread, I haven't recruited anyone yet because I am making sure that I am truly saving money before I get anybody else involved. If I find that you are right, I will not be recruiting.)
I believe your points #2-3 are inter-related. I think people quit because the others are forcing these tools on them, and therefore the downlines are losing money. They get out before they get sucked in. (Sadly, many others don't, get sucked in by the tools, and lost money that way.) I am not a proponent of the tools (though if someone truly believes they help them, that's their own perogative), and therefore my cost for the year should be $42. (Except I stupidly got a MyBiz site and a CommuniKate account, which I need to cancel, believing that they might actually be worth something. Nu, lesson learned.) So it will be $42 in every future year.
As to your fourth point, that is not true from what I have read. Reading through the Michigan AG's letter regarding pyramids, I see that Quixtar is very much different than a pyramid. I don't know the companies you mentioned, so I can't comment on those.
Finally, as to the arguing back and forth about whether others 'have to lose' for someone to gain... In a traditional company, you are selling to outside customers. Do you consider them to be losers? Are they losing out? No, they are getting a product. To me, it seems as if Quixtar is one better (in cases where it is actually cheaper): Not only are you getting the product, you are saving money. The one 'losing' money is the manufacturer; who we all know is not losing, but rather deciding they can profit more selling it at this price. For more info, learn Microeconomics.
To reject the outside customer in a typical marketplace is picking and choosing where all the money is going from and to.
Ezzie,
You are correct, you could possibly save some money with smart shopping, but you could also do that without signing up for a quixtar business. You would have to be very disciplined to do what you are suggesting, but it can be done.
However, as the theme goes, once you factor in tools, then very few people make any money execpt for the kingpin diamonds.
Gimme a break - I don't post for 3 hours and now I'm giving up? Don get a f#ing clue - its called a JOB - I got work to do!! And now I'm gonna go drop of some samples of XS and maybe show a plan to a friend of mine!
I'll tackle your weak @ss tomorrow perhaps - nope maybe Friday, forgot - got training for work in the a.m. and then got a fundraiser for my company in the afternoon - then I teach TKD in the evening. Whatever weak@ss argument you made I'll have to smash in the morning.
I have a habit of avoiding points I can't tackle?? Sh!t, you couldn't tackle my grandma!
Thank you Joe. Though I would add that to run any business properly (or your own finances) you have to be disciplined. It is when you are not the boss when you are able to be less disciplined.
Hey Tony, you talk tough but you can't "smash" a damn thing. Funny that you had the time to post that and nothing else. Maybe you should ask your grandma to do the arguing for you, maybe she'll be more intelligent.
Oh and brush up on those reading skills before you post one of your half-assed replies!
Ezzie,
You set up a straw man on almost every point. Perhaps you are yet another extrordinarily rare person that does not use the tool system, but we are arguing here on the reality of the norm of the A/Q business which means participation in the tool systems.
To start, no, I do not have a list of the states where the online buying club is illegal. Perhaps LawDawg does?
Next, it does not matter what you think would or should be illegal, it is the law of the land, that is what matters.
There have been a few price comparisons posted.
http://www.amquix.info/tosp/tosp39.html
http://amway.robinlionheart.com/prices.htm
Next, SA8 and Tide are the same price if you buy them in the same wash load size containers. Actually, Tide is a little cheaper. All the price comparisons that A/Q or other IBO's have done uses a small 20 or so load of Tide vs. the 100 or 150 load of SA8. Basic economics teaches that the larger packing size decreases the unit cost.
For your shipping, are you using a shipping method above Standard? If so, it drives up the cost $5-10 but gets to you quicker. I STILL just went to the store and was back in a few minutes, not a few days.
Your comments on saving and wealth are correct, but the BWW system does not teach that. The last time (a few months back) when I posted price comps of about 5 items the only thing the rebuting IBO could tell me was "no one saves their way to financial success". That is considered Takespeak because it is parroted on so many tapes it has become a BWW teaching.
Next, with the mathematical certainties, you have failed to differenciate between MAKING money and SAVING money. First, Quixtar does not save anyone any money. Across the board, over 95% of the products are more expensive, next, since this thing is a 'business', the objective is to MAKE money, yet only 1/10,000 actually make diamond and the average income for everyone else is only about $1,000 a year.
Next, we are not calling the people that are not making money 'losers', we are saying that they are 'losing out', i.e. losing money. The money going to the people above them is comming from the losses that the masses are incurring.
Let me now speak from my heart, Ezzie, It is apparent that you are not familar with the A/Q model. Most of us have spent many many years losing money, houses, spouses, children, cars, and precious years because of this thing. We are not negative people, we are people trying to help those who are not yet sucked into this thing avoid it, and perhaps help those in it, out.
Since you are so new, do you know what is on the tapes? I have been posting analysis on a tape a week (SOT if you will) for about a month. Check it out for the teachings that BWW (close association with WWDB) teaches.
www.bwwsot.blogspot.com
Other unfinished business,
"another IBO", what vitamin claims that DNA is repaired?
This is utter foolishness. My professional field is molecular biology and toxicology. For DNA to be 'repaired', there must be a template of 'proper' code present to copy. Since DNA does not have an intrinsic 'right' vs. 'wrong' (unless you are talking about a base pair mismatch), the cell has no basis for determining what the proper code is. As for a base mismatch error, that is often a 50-50 split. It will either be repaired correctly or will introduce a new mutation in that cell and all progenitors of that cell. Such a statement is foolishness. Please let me know what vitamin makes that claim. That is illegal to make according to the FDA drug labeling codes.
DoubleX vitamin pack advertises the repaired DNA
Poorhouse Tony--pick up whatever shards of your dignity you have and just leave. You have been torn apart by the facts and nothing you say can refute the damning evidence against your business plan.
Lawdawg--get it right. It is Poorhouse Tony, not big time Tony. Tony is gonna end up broke by pooring more money into the system that he is getting out.
Eezziebot--Microeconomics? Care to explain that one. How about opportunity cost? Do you understand that as an economic term? Opportunity cost is the investment needed for the next best alternative. You could invest your tape/book/function money into the S&P and outperform 99% of your ambot pals.
You are better off putting your time and/or money into a business elsewhere. I hope you do, but I won't pity you if you don't.
If anyone is interested, my wife the IBO got FREE today........She got smart and quit :)
Another IBO> If anyone is interested, my wife the IBO got FREE today........She got smart and quit :)
Joe> That is the true meaning of being free. When I first quit it was strange, like I had so much more free time and extra money.
I will keep coming to this blog to get info because my brother in law is not free yet. I think it is funny that people believe in this business. The sad thing is they can make more money selling tupperware. I guess that is the point though. You have to SALE stuff, not just buy it
That is great news 'nutherIBO.
I think things may improve on the homefront now that your house isn't divided.
Congrats.
Ezzie wrote:
"Finally, as to the arguing back and forth about whether others 'have to lose' for someone to gain... In a traditional company, you are selling to outside customers. Do you consider them to be losers? Are they losing out? No, they are getting a product. To me, it seems as if Quixtar is one better (in cases where it is actually cheaper): Not only are you getting the product, you are saving money. The one 'losing' money is the manufacturer; who we all know is not losing, but rather deciding they can profit more selling it at this price. For more info, learn Microeconomics.
To reject the outside customer in a typical marketplace is picking and choosing where all the money is going from and to."
Ezzie:
Go back and re-read dmm & xanadustc's postings again regarding closed and open systems of distribution - this time very carefully. Then substitute the participant examples that they used (card players, martial arts participants, college students) with that of quixtar IBO distributors all looking to make a profit. Ask yourself where all of the money is coming from that the IBOs are looking to make as a profit. Then ask yourself if it is mathematically possible then for ALL of those IBOs to be making money at any one given point in time.
:::sigh:::
You set up a straw man on almost every point. Perhaps you are yet another extrordinarily rare person that does not use the tool system, but we are arguing here on the reality of the norm of the A/Q business which means participation in the tool systems.
I am not. I agree about the tool systems. I'm talking about Quixtar, not the crap from WWDB or BWW.
To start, no, I do not have a list of the states where the online buying club is illegal. Perhaps LawDawg does?
Do you at least remember where you saw it?
Next, it does not matter what you think would or should be illegal, it is the law of the land, that is what matters.
I agree. My point was that I had not seen what was said as being illegal; the speculation made above that I disagreed with. The reason I started reading this blog was to make sure that none of this was illegal.
There have been a few price comparisons posted.
http://www.amquix.info/tosp/tosp39.html
From 1995.
http://amway.robinlionheart.com/prices.htm
From 1993-1996.
Hardly recent, or applicable.
Next, SA8 and Tide are the same price if you buy them in the same wash load size containers. Actually, Tide is a little cheaper. All the price comparisons that A/Q or other IBO's have done uses a small 20 or so load of Tide vs. the 100 or 150 load of SA8. Basic economics teaches that the larger packing size decreases the unit cost.
I didn't study the price comparisons in stores; I compared what I paid for each, and how long each lasted me. The SA8 lasted far longer. Therefore, for me at least, SA8 is cheaper.
For your shipping, are you using a shipping method above Standard? If so, it drives up the cost $5-10 but gets to you quicker. I STILL just went to the store and was back in a few minutes, not a few days.
No, I'm using Standard. And, there is a definite added convenience to something being delivered to your door. In my case, that's more true, because we don't own a car (doesn't make economic sense in Queens).
Your comments on saving and wealth are correct, but the BWW system does not teach that. The last time (a few months back) when I posted price comps of about 5 items the only thing the rebuting IBO could tell me was "no one saves their way to financial success". That is considered Takespeak because it is parroted on so many tapes it has become a BWW teaching.
Um, ok... I have never listened to a tape, so I wouldn't know. But as long as you agree that my statements were correct, I'm not sure we disagree.
Next, with the mathematical certainties, you have failed to differenciate between MAKING money and SAVING money. First, Quixtar does not save anyone any money. Across the board, over 95% of the products are more expensive, next, since this thing is a 'business', the objective is to MAKE money, yet only 1/10,000 actually make diamond and the average income for everyone else is only about $1,000 a year.
Actually, I specifically said 'saving' money in each instance. I'm not sure if you realized, but that was my point. Quixtar is worth it, by my estimates so far, regardless of whether I 'make' a cent. I don't view Quixtar as a golden 'get rich' opportunity. I view it as a nice little side padding and money saving venture.
Next, we are not calling the people that are not making money 'losers', we are saying that they are 'losing out', i.e. losing money. The money going to the people above them is comming from the losses that the masses are incurring.
I know you didn't mean losers. As I wrote it, I was hoping people would realize that I meant losing money, but I didn't know how to express it in context without the term 'losers'. It came out unclear. I'm sorry.
However, my point was that your statement is not true. My point, in fact, is exactly the opposite: Nobody should be losing money on this. If they are, then they're wasting money on tools, and almost deserve what they get for being dumb. My exact point is that everyone should be able to 'save' without 'making' anything. If people also 'make' from other people below them 'saving', then that is a nice little bonus. They should not 'make' from the other's getting ripped off on tools; that is unethical and probably illegal.
Let me now speak from my heart, Ezzie, It is apparent that you are not familar with the A/Q model. Most of us have spent many many years losing money, houses, spouses, children, cars, and precious years because of this thing. We are not negative people, we are people trying to help those who are not yet sucked into this thing avoid it, and perhaps help those in it, out.
I was not familiar with it, but recently I have become so. Turns out my in-laws are Amway sellers. They do very little, though they use SA8 and Artistry. Yet they've remained in Amway, and have always made a little bit from it. They also have never used tools (to my knowledge). They make very nice salaries in their regular jobs, and live in a house that is worth $800K+, yet they still do Amway on the side. I'm not sure if they have a soul under them, though if they do I doubt they talk to them about Amway. I'm sorry that so many of you suffered through A/Q; perhaps you didn't realize the hurtfulness or waste of the tools, perhaps you live in an area where AQ products cost more than the stores. I don't know. I truly appreciate everyone's help, especially people like you who are honest in their assertions and open about their experiences. Hopefully I can learn from all of you and make this into a positive.
Since you are so new, do you know what is on the tapes? I have been posting analysis on a tape a week (SOT if you will) for about a month. Check it out for the teachings that BWW (close association with WWDB) teaches.
No. I don't listen to them.
Eezziebot--Microeconomics? Care to explain that one. How about opportunity cost? Do you understand that as an economic term? Opportunity cost is the investment needed for the next best alternative. You could invest your tape/book/function money into the S&P and outperform 99% of your ambot pals.
I calculated opportunity cost in. Check again. You also must have missed previous posts where I stated I do not spend any book/tape/function money.
Oh yeah - the S&P underperforms vs. my mutual fund ;). And so far, I have no Ambot pals. (Also discussed above.)
You are better off putting your time and/or money into a business elsewhere. I hope you do, but I won't pity you if you don't.
Well, we'll see. I would hope that you wish me to succeed, however.
Ask yourself where all of the money is coming from that the IBOs are looking to make as a profit. Then ask yourself if it is mathematically possible then for ALL of those IBOs to be making money at any one given point in time.
I do believe I made myself clear above, but ok... I did not say 'make' - I said 'save'. Everyone is saving money; Quixtar is the only one who's earning 'less' because they're selling at wholesale not retail. Obviously, they don't care, because they're set up to sell mostly at wholesale. (And their wholesale prices aren't exactly wholesale, just better than retail.) My point - again - is that people should be able to save money by doing Quixtar. This can be translated into "make", but if the terminology is confusing I'll stick with "save".
And yes, it is 100% mathematically possible for everyone to be saving at the same time. (It's also possible for everyone to make money at the same time, but that's a longer explanation. Perhaps if I decide to pass on the Big 4 and go get my Math PhD I'll write a dissertation on it, but my father (who used to sell insurance out of our basement) and father-in-law (who worked as an actuary, and likes sitting in his office surrounded by thousands of academic works) both said actuarial work is the most boring job (and as I mentioned, these are not the most exciting people), and I'm not interested in teaching Calculus to 19-year olds. My Calc teacher in 10th grade thought I should become an actuary, but he was a college nerd who enjoyed taking random numbers and finding their derivatives while waiting in line for a flight. Then again, the last time I took a math test was the SAT, and that was 6 years ago. So maybe my math is off. But hey, at least I aced that one...)
Crap. Sorry, I put EM tags around everything I quoted; I don't know why it didn't come out. I hope people can still understand it...
Quote : "Hey Tony! Giving up, huh? You have a very good habit of ignoring points you can't tackle..."
Actually, Tony just starts swearing when he gets a point he is having trouble tackling.
Tony,
What is your projected timeline for recovering your investment?
Ezzie,
I know the product comps are way too out of date, that is why I don't often link them; I did so since you asked. There are a lot of other points you mentioned that I will tackle later, I have some things to do right now. I'll be back later.
X
Re: Making Money
Ezzie wrote:
"(It's also possible for everyone to make money at the same time, but that's a longer explanation. Perhaps if I decide to pass on the Big 4 and go get my Math PhD I'll write a dissertation on it, but my father (who used to sell insurance out of our basement) and father-in-law (who worked as an actuary, and likes sitting in his office surrounded by thousands of academic works) both said actuarial work is the most boring job (and as I mentioned, these are not the most exciting people), and I'm not interested in teaching Calculus to 19-year olds. My Calc teacher in 10th grade thought I should become an actuary, but he was a college nerd who enjoyed taking random numbers and finding their derivatives while waiting in line for a flight. Then again, the last time I took a math test was the SAT, and that was 6 years ago. So maybe my math is off. But hey, at least I aced that one...)"
Who said anything about calculus, actuarial work or phd's? It's a basic and simple common sense model. If everybody is looking to partake in a profit making scheme, with either very little or no monies coming in from the outside, how can all of the distributors profit then?
Take any conventional franchise model like McDonald's, Burger King, Dunkin' Donuts et al.. Mathematically speaking, why do all of these individual stores operate in the black? It's because monies coming in from the sales of their products (donuts, coffee, burgers etc.) come from outside customers walking in off the street - who are not looking to profit from the sales & distribution ventures that these businesses are a part of. Could you imagine if every one of these customers were interested in making a profit off of these stores by assisting them distribute & sell their products - through the referral of purchases at these stores amongst each other as a whole group)? At this point, can you now explain to me how every single one of these customers can now make a profit?
If you can answer that question satisfactorily ezzie, then kudos to you. If you can't - by trying to blow it off - then I think everybody on here will realize that you simply don't understand the mlm business concept.
There's no more room here for lame excuses. Either you can answer the question simply, or you can't.
RE: Saving Money
Quixtar's prices on basic commodities are much less cheaper than what is being offered out there in the general marketplace. Anybody who can't see that has got their head buried in kool-aid mix. Either that, or they just haven't been out of their home or apartment in the last 30 years.
Anybody who can stand there and tell me that quixtar is cheaper, or even on par with price-wise, than any one of the multitudes of price clubs or discount stores that have popped up all over the country like wild dandelions over the years, quite frankly just isn't worth having a normal discussion with.
The second to last paragraph that I wrote above claimed that "quixtar's products are MUCH LESS CHEAPER than what is being offered out there in the general marketplace".
My inappropriate use of the term "much less cheaper" falls under the same "category of confusion" as the general rule in proper grammar of refraining from the use of a "double negative" in a statement.
translation: much less cheaper = much more expensive (the latter term being what I should have wrote in the first place).
Ezzie, think of things this way. You now what a traditional Ponzi scheme is, correct? Take a traditional Ponzi scheme where everyone has to pay in $100. Say the person at the top takes 1/3 of everything paid. Ten participants means $1000 total. Person at top takes his cut, $333, leaving $667 to return back to the participants. The average pay back would be $66.67, meaning the participants as a whole lose an average of $33.33. Some may make more then $100 they originally spent, but as a collective, there is a negative sum.
Say to make things look more legit, the guy at the top introduces a little gift basket containing soaps, lotions, ect. worth $25 that he gives to all the participants. Would this make the scheme legit? Of course not, because if you follow the money, you still have, in essence, a Ponzi scheme.
The second paragraph describes very well what a closed Quixtar system looks like. Even if a person in the above example makes $10, he may come out ahead when the $25 gift basket is added in, but his wallet is still $23 lighter then when he started.
And herein lies a problem with Quixtar and legality. All IBO's are businesses, and businesses are in existance to profit. Simply put, consumable items cannot be considered as part of profit. Remember our participant in the last paragraph. He's "saved" money by participating, but he is still down $23. He didn't "profit" in that he spent more then he got back in return.
Now, consider the closed buy from yourself and teach others to do so (no retailing) system. Where is the money coming from? The answer is only other IBO's, who may be "saving" money on their purchases, but are they profiting? That answer for the collective is a resounding no. And unless outsiders add money to the pot, that answer will always be no.
In the end, a buy from yourself system is a glorified Ponzi scheme. Money is coming from the masses below so that the few on the top may profit. Sure there are legit products being purchased, but unless money is coming from non-participants, you still have the Ponziesque aspect of it all.
dmm,
excellent picture there, but I would like to add something if I could.
Of course the Q model involves some clients, and indeed, a few (and yes FEW) actually DO any client retailing. As a whole, there are almost NO clients in the system relative to IBO's, so in reality, Q operates mostly like dmm just described.
Even myself, I always fulfilled the 10 client / 50PV / $100 rule, but fulfilling that rule NEVER added enough money to the pot for anyone to profit.
Further, if you go to the presentation, it is sold as a 'buy from yourself and teach others to do the same' business, the ones that do mention client retailing, focus more on recruitment anyway. My former team did a lot of product demos, clinics, and other things like that, but the focus was always IBO first, then retail client, and if they were a hard sell, offer a membership.
NOTE: Sorry for CAPS, but the tags don't seem to be working...
mlmscam - I believe we're going in circles.
As explained above: Nobody is losing here. There is no need for outside money for someone to save. If you buy a product at a cheaper price from Walmart than you would at Target, then you have saved money, correct? My assertion was that "for the products Quixtar is cheaper" Quixtar is just as good as a Costco et al.
It also shows why I'm asking for CURRENT price comparisons.
dmm - Your example is not similiar to Quixtar. Quixtar, one gives $42 for the right to buy prodcuts at discount (again, assuming there are such products). By buying those products, the person saves MORE than the $42 spent. I agree with you that the gift basket is irrelevant - it's an added bonus.
xandustc - I agree, it is sold as a buy from yourself business.
All of you: The question that we all keep coming back to is thus: If I can save money doing so, is that a problem? (Before bringing in any other IBO's, etc - just being one myself and buying Quixtar products) And, if it's not a problem, can such a thing truly be done with Quixtar products?
So far, in my experience (as stated above), SA8 and LOC products are very good products that are cheaper than their equal quality alternatives. As to other products, I don't have enough knowledge yet.
mlmscam - You keep confusing the issue, bringing in sales. Obviously, nobody can make money on SALES just selling to themselves. As I stated numerous times above, which dmm focused on, and you did in the end of your post, the issue is that the person is saving money buying these products from Quixtar as opposed to others. Your McDonald's example is completely irrelevant. (And, in case you didn't notice, my last piece was above was not meant seriously. Unless you meant your line as a joke as well, in which case I'm the dullard. Ah well.)
Again, thanks to all who are posting. I'm still trying to learn more about Quixtar before I consider getting others to do it.
I'm not some rah-rah Qx guy, rather just playing devil's advocate to better understand everything. Thanks.
What's the problem, Ezzie? If you are an US citizen, ask the IRS. If you are from another country, ask the appropriate Federal Tax bureau.
You see, Ezzie, Quixtar/Amway is supposed to be a business. And a business is supposed to be about profit, i.e. having more money in the bank at the end of the year then when you started. By definition, in a closed system, the overwhelming majority of participants will have significantly less money in the bank at the end of the year. Sure they may have consumable goods that are equal or more then the amount of money lost, but remember, consumable goods are not a business asset.
Also remember, Ezzie, businesses abide by different tax laws. Most Quixtar businesses in the USA are a 1099 business and IBO's fill out a Schedule C every year. 1099 businesses can deduct legitimate costs of doing business and can often times lower their tax burden significantly and/or get a refund. Now remember, a business is in business to profit. Also, an IBO not at the top of the pyramid also has little to no expectation to profit from Quixtar. Therefore, should he be allowed to deduct his expenses, or is he committing tax fraud?
The answer can be found in legal cases. Generally, the IRS gives a person three years to profit before declaring a business a "hobby business," and disallowing most deductions. How many IBO's truly can turn a profit within three years? The answer is the overwhelming majority do not. And for those IBO's who have been in business for more then three years and still aren't profiting, be careful on your taxes, because the IRS does not take to kindly to "hobby businessmen" who deduct like legit businessmen.
Last but not least. Amway has been around for over 40 years, and millions of people have been involved over this time. Yet the number of IBO's remain around 300,000, and the number of customers even smaller. Don't you think that if Amway/Quixtar was such a great deal, millions of people would still be invovled? What happened to these millions? The answer is AmQuix is not a better deal, and in the end, people are better off shopping at Costco, Wal-Mart, Target, etc.
Joecool,
Where'd you find daipers cheaper than kozy kids? I buy kozy kids because I've never seen anything cheaper, and with kids of my own and a charity I support for new moms I would definitely like to know.
For those of you wanting a recent price comparison, I am willing to do one, but I would like a few people to ask before I will go through the time to do it.
chris,
I do not buy diapers, so i don't know about a price comp, but I will look at that, too.
Leave me a message at email or a post on one of my blogs if I should do it. I will wait to get five requests, then I will do it.
X
Chris> Where'd you find daipers cheaper than kozy kids? I buy kozy kids because I've never seen anything cheaper, and with kids of my own and a charity I support for new moms I would definitely like to know.
Joe> Wal Mart, local drug stores, all cheaper than cozy kids. Add in coupon specials on ome of these and they turn out to be half the price in some instances.
Chris> Where'd you find daipers cheaper than kozy kids? I buy kozy kids because I've never seen anything cheaper, and with kids of my own and a charity I support for new moms I would definitely like to know.
Joe> Wal Mart, local drug stores, all cheaper than cozy kids. Add in coupon specials on some of these and they turn out to be half the price in some instances.
If the quixtar folks were really helping people and they were all making money, then it would be good. However, the hard numbers provided by QUIXTAR indicate that a lot of people are not making money. Now it could be that some are lazy, etc., but when the average income is $1380 per year, that means that 724 IBO's make nothing in order for there to be one millionaire in Quixtar. The math paints a much different picture than what the presenters of the plan are showing.
Also funny is how they lure people into the business with claims of financial freedom and residual income, then after you're in for a while and not making money, the teaching changes to "the business is about friendships and God, not about money"
Posted by: Joecool18 | August 22, 2005 7:25 PM