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August 10, 2005
Diamond Lorencz Explains The Money
By QBlog in Quixtar
Former Quixtar (and Amway) Diamond Don J. Lorencz has published a web page explaining that he left Quixtar "because of the dishonesty in the business."
Lorencz encourages readers to ask questions about Quixtar and demand answers about the status of upline Diamonds, where the tool money goes and how much is regularly generated.
...if one of 'your leaders' that are professing to be making all of this money, lifestyle, toys etc are claiming what I am saying here is not true, it is very, very simple to find out the truth.
Just ask them to show you their income statements directly from Amway/Quixtar for the last year and also their tax returns to Revenue Canada or the IRS last year showing their 'total' income for the year. If they won't show you these figures, wouldn't you think the truth is obvious?
Lorencz also makes some startling revelations about his personal Diamond income claiming that he earned less than one third of an Air Canada pilot's salary the year he qualified Diamond.
What does an Air Canada pilot earn? According to the Air Canada Pilots Association (pdf) the "current average annual salary for an Air Canada pilot is about $128,000." That's Canadian Dollars. Convert those dollars to U.S. and the salary is cut to roughly $105,500. One third of that total is approximately $35,200.
Freedom?
So, according to Lorencz, some qualifying Diamonds are making less than the annual U.S. household average of $47,101. Are his numbers right? Wrong? Is Lorencz lying or was his Diamondship simply the exception to the rule? He also claims that over 80% of the money he was paid came from the the motivational business, not Quixtar.
I don't know Don J. Lorencz. Never spoken to him, exchanged emails or even heard of him before I saw his new web page. He may be a saint or a scoundrel, I really couldn't say. However, much of what he says is consistent with the information and testimony I've encountered over the past few years of studying, researching and investigating Quixtar.
Comments
I suppose they could argue that the reason that 80% of his income was system money was because he didn't have that Diamond income any more and the Amway cheque got that small. A "real" Diamond would earn more therefore the percentage would be different. He left because he was a loser etc. etc. etc.
That doesn't take away the lies and deceit, obviously.
Qblog,
This is directly quoted from your forums:
From Joecool:
"Most people who are familiar with the business know that it takes about $2.50 to earn 1 PV. And generally 1 PV equals 2 BV. Therefore to make 7500 PV and 15,000 BV, a direct distributor (DD) and his/her group would have to spend $18,750 per month, or $225,000 per year to maintain that business.
To make a diamond business, you would need a diamond with at least 2500 side PV ($6,250 a month) plus six (6) direct legs @ $18,750 per month. Therefore, a diamond group minimally would need to spend about $118,750 per month to earn enough PV to maintain a diamondship. This would equate to $1,425,000 spent per year to maintain the directs and the diamond.
This would generate 47,500 PV and 95,000 BV per month which would equate to $23,750 in bonus money each month. (25% of 95,000 BV = $24750) In a year this would generate $285,000 in bonuses.
If a direct earns $4000 a month , that’s about $24,000 a month with 6 directs. In a year, that’s $144,000. So if the directs earn $144,000 it would be (in theory) possible for a diamond to get about $141,000 a year ($285,000 - $144,000)."
I am not refuting Joecool's numbers, just this guy Don Lorencz. I've never heard of him before today's post.
In my opinion,How much your sponsor earns doesn't count. You can't buy groceries with your upline's money. If you are purchasing a traditional franchise, then it's perfectly acceptable to ask how much they earn, you ARE investing in that brand name and that company.
Michael,
I don't think it should matter whether it's a traditional franchise (McDonald's, WalMart, etc...). Quixtar or their AMO's bill this as private franchising meaning you're investing in their company strategy. It's very appropriate to ask how well others are doing to be able to gauge if you're willing to participate or not. I don't know about you but most people wouldn't invest in something that has a very poor track record of success. So by asking for your sponser's tax information that will show whether the business opportunity is profitable or not. If it is then great, but if it's not would you still seriously consider it?
Michael:
Did you find the language from that FTC opinion where it explains that Amway is a "legitimate business" and the reasoning behind whatever conclusion you find?
I still think you havent' actualy read it.
And I'm still waiting for you to prove me wrong.
Michael, I would say it does matter what your sponsor makes in a business your thinking on getting into. Their income level is indicative to what you will probably see if you were to do as the system says and "duplicate" them. Why the big secret? If people are really making money let them show there yearly incomes and be proud of their success. If they are not, well anyone can claim to be successful, many confidence men work that angle before disappearing into the night with your wallet.
quiksilver,
I still don't think its at all appropriate to ask that because its still not a guage of how well you can do. Its a guage of how well the individual is doing yes, but it's not a guage of how well you can do.
Lawdawg,
I know you already know the answer to that. But that documet does say several times that it is not an illegal pyramid scheme. And yes I have read the document. Granted, you are rght, it doesn't state exactly word for word, its a legitimate business.
I'm curious to know what the pro-quixtar folks have to say. Afterall, how could this Don Lorencz guy quit if he could walk away and collect "residual" income?????
Also he claims that he made about 80% of his income from tools. That sound about right. In the amquix info website, I believe I read that dickster yager makes about 2.5 million from quixtar and about 40 million from tools. I guess the smaller kingpins get less of the tools money?
Anyway you look at it, there's a lot of deception involed in this business.
Guys,
I have this question to you,
Let's suppose a new IBO gets in and sets an income goal to do an extra $500 a month. He shows you his books, after monthly expenses he accomplishes his goals? Are you going to praise him publically for achieving his goals, or are you going to ridicule him publically for being a pathetic IBO? History has shown that no matter what an IBO tells you or shows you, you'll still call him a pathetic IBO. Because "you've heard it all before"
Joecool- he could have quit for many reasons, why doesn't he publish them honestly?
If someone signs up, sets a goal and reaches it, that's good for them. I have never said that nobody makes money from the business. My issue is that far too many people lose money in the overall picture. The idea is for everyone to profit afterall.
And Michael, my point on Don quitting, why would he quit when supposedly diamonds can walk away and collect residuals?
I have never advised anyone to quit and I have not wished for anyone to fail, but I point on areas where the "leaders" of the business mislead their unsuspecting downline. Example: I know a coupe who lost their home because upline advised them to put off paying the mortgage in order to get to thet next function. I have heard upline teach people to get out of debt (good), but in the same breath tell them it's ok to go into debt if it's to buy tapes or to attend functions.
Okay, michael, now you've changed your statement. You previously stated that the FTC's opinion held Amway was a "legitimate business." Now you've backed off of that and are simply claiming that the FTC found Amway was not a pyramid scheme.
What was the FTC's reasoning? Why did it decide Amway was not a pyramid scheme? Please cite to the text of the opinion in support of your answer.
Thanks.
Mikebot, Tonybot, Embot????
Are you boys out there?!?!
You're getting crushed by the facts.
Again.
Here is one of your own (formerly) telling you that what you are aspiring to is a sham!
That's gotta sting.
Hopefully it wakes you up & you can still
get out before you completely sacrifice your savings, relationship and personal integrity.
Michael,
If someone sets out to make an additional $500 a month with Quixtar and can show proof, than great! But are they doing it legally should be the next question. Obviously I'm talking about pyramid schemeing where all the person does is recruit. No matter how any wants to justify this it is what it is, a pyramid scheme and therefore illegal. Now if someone was retailing and making money well that's great for them. Even if the items may be higher priced than oters from like Wal Mart at least they are making an honest living by actually selling product. I'm not a salesperson so I wouldn't want to sell. But that's not what you're told when you're first shown the plan. They tell you up fron that there's no selling, all you have to do is by from yuorself. There's too much deception in this business for me to honestly want to spend the time, money, and energy it takes to make it successful. So again, to answer your question, if someone was to show me that they are making $500 extra dollars a month by retailing Quixtar products, then I'd truly be happy for them.
Michael: Congratulations on using the "groceries" line for the third time! You still haven't told me what tape you got that from.
I don't know of anyone who would ridicule an IBO who stated, "I want to make X amount of money" and then made that amount after expenses, proved it, maintained that income level, and did so honestly and without making money on tool scams. Can you provide any examples where such a person has been a target of criticism?
I don't know why you draw this bright line between "traditional franchises" and Qx. Anyone getting recruited for ANY business opportunity ought to ask what other people in the business are making, instead of uncritically swallowing Pollyanna income projections. Then, if someone decides, "I can do better than 99.9% of everyone who has ever joined this business," at least he's going in with his eyes open.
As for Don Lorencz, I just emailed him to ask if he can post proof of his income statements. That seems fair, given that we critics are always asking for proof of income from advocates. Even so, Lorencz states three things that dovetail nicely with other information already widely available: (1) People being promoted as Diamonds (or Emeralds, etc.) often are not currently qualified at that pin level, (2) Diamonds don't make as much from Qx as they represent, and (3) The real money in Qx comes from tools.
Keep working the biz, Michael. Maybe someday Qbots will be spouting YOUR tapequotes on the Internet!
"... he could have quit for many reasons, why doesn't he publish them honestly?"
So you're asserting that what he HAS published is not honest? Why do you say this, just because it goes against your opinions of this "business"? Because you're so bought in that if something is in agreement with what the critics say it must be a lie? That's awfully presumptuous of you, and less and less defensible now that "insiders" at high levels are corroborating the worst of what's been said by the critics.
Michael,
If someone approaches you because they heard Quixtar's a great way to make money, then I guess, no. After all they came to you.
If you are approaching someone and providing a way for them to create income, and by doing that, you create income (cough, through volume of product; cough cough) then the onus is on you to be transparent and open up the books.
If you approach, then you need to understand people want to see the proof that what YOU are saying is true.
Michael: You can make a lot of money doing this, sign here.
Prospect: Wait, can you show me how much you've made? After all, you're saying it works for you, so I would just like to see that.
Michael: No, you are not me. You could make more, or less. I won't show you any evidence of profit or loss.
Prospect: But if it's true, why can't you show me? You were the one, after all, who said I could eventually retire with this, like the other people in that Profile book.
Michael: Nope.
Doesn't that sound absolutely absurd Michael? That's because it is.
Don Lorencz was in True North, the organization I was in. I've heard him speak on stage. Based on what I've seen, he got the shaft from a diamond who felt threatened by him (Mark Crawford).
Mark Crawford liked the deceptive money too much, and didn't want to reduce ANY costs for the IBO's. He even had a bunch of his downline rip out lorencz's picture & story from the profile book. Nice guy.
If someone from True North prospects you, run away. It's the same garbage, the upline from Mark & Tami Crawford is some EDC whose wife was hurt in an accident and is now in a wheelchair. Strangely enough, she fell through an unfinished stairwell on their dream home. Ironic.
The upline ends at Poindexter Yager, so it's just lies about income possibilities at a Canadian level.
What's so appalling about some of the pro-quixtar's posters is that so much of the "plan" has been proven wrong and hard numbers shows that the vast majority of people lose money in quixtar, yet no one sees through the deceit.
Let me dispel these again:
98% of people dead or broke by 65. Not true (I have links if needed)
98% of small businesses fail in 5 years.
Not true
Quixtar saves marriages. Not true
The FTC praised Amway in their 1979 ruling.
(Not true, ask Lawdawg)
We don't make money until you do.
Not true.
The profits from tapes and seminars are channeled back into the business to make future functions cheaper. Not true
Michael, Tony, Emminem, Ryan Hicks, anyone care to explain these misconceptions shown by people selling the plan to new people??
Again, I'm not saying that no one makes money in quixtar, but the fact is that far more people lose money than make money in this venture. And it happens because they are fed these lies when prospected.
I received this disappointing reply from Don Lorencz regarding my request for documentation of his income claim:
Thanks for the email, however if someone refuses to believe what a rather
large diamond organization explains to them, they are not likely to believe
any 'documents' either. Once you have stupidity thinking, it is hard to
allow any fresh air in if you know what I mean!
I suppose if someone disputed my statement, they would need to ask a diamond
to show them their income statement from last year from Amway/Quixtar alone,
a statement that came directly from the corporation!
I rest my case!
Don J. Lorencz
Michael, Tony, Emminem, Ryan Hicks, anyone care to explain these misconceptions shown by people selling the plan to new people??
(Sorry, had to edit the part about small biz)
What's so appalling about some of the pro-quixtar's posters is that so much of the "plan" has been proven wrong and hard numbers shows that the vast majority of people lose money in quixtar, yet no one sees through the deceit.
Let me dispel these again:
98% of people dead or broke by 65. Not true (I have links if needed)
95% of small businesses fail in 5 years.
Not true
Quixtar saves marriages. Not true
The FTC praised Amway in their 1979 ruling.
(Not true, ask Lawdawg)
We don't make money until you do.
Not true.
The profits from tapes and seminars are channeled back into the business to make future functions cheaper. Not true
Again, I'm not saying that no one makes money in quixtar, but the fact is that far more people lose money than make money in this venture. And it happens because they are fed these lies when prospected.
djlorencztexerta@texerta.com
By the way, this ex-diamond is no saint. He got out now, probably as a result of a falling out with a bigger kingpin, but he's been on take for quite some time now.
Had he not been forced out, he would still be collecting from his downline with a smile.
One reason that Lornecz probably "got out" as opposed to going inactive and collecting residual income was the fact that he and his wife divorced. She probably got the business as part of the division of assets. As well, rumours of friction between Don and the Crawfords have been around for years.
People saying "walking away from residual income is illogical, therefore there was no residual income" need to consider all of factors at work in Lorencz's individual case.
I don't dispute, though, that a small diamondship like his is hardly a perpetual ticket to easy street.
He had on a different web site that Crawfords were helping his ex try and get control of the business.
I remember that a couple of people who had become directs back in the mid 90's and then suddenly took a "leave from the business, and how that seemed strange. After all, in True North, it was all about dreams and blah blah blah. Direct is a good foothold to freedom, it was said.
Things fell into place when I understood about the tools money, and I remember one of the Directs who quit, Nick, was a solid guy. I strongly feel now that taking tool money was a big ethics issue to Nick, and that's why he quit.
I remember sitting at an airport with a few other IBO's talking to Mark and Tami Crawfor for a few hours, while he was on a layover. At the time, he seemed like a cool guy. Now, it's just so obvious what a manipulating prick he was, and likely still is.
They do put on a good show, but I can totally see him trying to get rid of Lorencz, since one of Lorencz's bones of contention was the expensive (haha) support systems.
True North is a completely disgraceful inference to Canada. True North is something that should represent honorable and clean.
Based on my experiences, Mark and Tami Crawford most assuredly are neither.
Lawdawg,
A. Allegations That the Amway Plan Is a Pyramid Scheme
Complaint counsel argue that respondents have represented to prospective distributors that under the Amway Plan a distributor is likely to earn substantial income through a process of 'multiplication' or 'duplication', by recruiting others into the program who will themselves engage in recruiting, etc. Complaint counsel characterize the Amway Plan as 'a scheme to pyramid by geometric growth layers of distributors.' They state that 'the Plan, by itself, is false, misleading and deceptive', because it leads to distributor saturationÂÂthat is, to such heavy concentration of Amway distributors that there is no one left to be recruited. The ALJ found that the record does not support these charges, and we agree.
The Commission had described the essential features of an illegal pyramid scheme:
Such schemes are characterized by the payment by participants of money to the company in return for which they receive (1) the right to sell a product and (2) the right to receive in return for recruiting other participants into the program rewards which are unrelated to sale of the product to ultimate users. . . . As is apparent, the presence of this second element, recruitment with rewards unrelated to product sales, is nothing more than an elaborate chain letter device in which individuals who pay a valuable consideration with the expectation of recouping it to some degree via recruitment are bound to be disappointed. In re Koscot Interplanetary, Inc., 86 F.T.C. 1106, 1180 (1975) (emphasis added), aff'd mem., sub nom. Turner v. FTC 580 F.2d 701 (D.C. Cir. 1978).
"The Amway Plan does not contain the essential features described above, and therefore it is not a scheme which is inherently false, misleading, or deceptive."
Great. Good job, michael. How did the FTC distinguish Amway from Koscot?
Lawdawg,
To answer your question.
"How did the FTC distinguish Amway from Koscot?"
Back in '71 there had been lots of adverse publicity about various "pyramid" schemes that had been put out of business by the FTC. Among those were Koscot, Bestline, and Holiday Magic. Unlike Amway, these companies paid bonuses on the number of recruits you signed up under you. They were Ponzi Schemes which rewarded a handful of people at the top.
Also,the Amway model was not ruled an illegal pyramid scheme due to "safeguards" provided by in the Amway business rules. These safeguards include the Retail Sales rule, now the Member Client rule, the 70% rule, and a 90% money-back policy.
Koscot was ruled an elaborate chain letter scheme.
You're getting there, micheal.
What did the FTC say about those safeguards? What was the purpose of those safeguards and what did these safeguards do that made the FTC believe Amway wasn't a pyramid scheme in 1979?
Lwadawg,
As the Administrative Law Judge explained in his memorandum opinion:
73. To ensure that distributors do not attempt to secure the performance bonus solely on the basis of purchases, Amway requires that, to receive a performance bonus, distributors must resell at least 70% of the products they have purchased each month.The 70% rule has been in existence since the beginning of Amway. Amway enforces the 70% rule.
74. Amway's 'tenÂcustomer' rule provides that distributors may not receive a performance bonus unless they prove a sale to each of ten different retail customers during each month. The Direct Distributors have the primary responsibility for enforcing the tenÂcustomer rule in their own group. The tenÂcustomer rule was started by Amway about 1970. Prior to that, there was a 25 sales rule, which required the distributor to make 25 retail sales a month without regard to the number of customers. The tenÂcustomer rule is enforced by Amway and the Direct Distributors.
Lawdawg,
On your podcast with Qblog, why did you change your story of their being only 14- 17 diamonds to now being possibly 40 to 50 diamonds? There were alot of contradictions on your podcast.
I've said that the numbers show about 31 total "diamonds and above" and in my podcast that that total diamonds and above are probably around 50 or so, which is just my opinion, and being generous.
Now, on those retail sales rules, which ones does Quixtar have today, and what do they do to enforce them?
Do the rules the way they are enforced today ensure that income in Quixtar is tied "primarily" to retail sales to non-distributors?
BTW, which other contradictions were there in my podcast?
Still no sign of life from the other ambots?!?
Not a big surprise there.
Remember kids, the only quick star is a falling star........
An amusing side note from a taxi cab driver on the recent "Bonnie and Clide" style prisoner escape in Tenn.
"They claimed they were heading to a sales conference of Amway, the household goods manufacturer. But, says Wagers, "They didn't strike me as the Amway type, because, to be honest, they weren't very pushy about their product. And I've dealt with (Amway salespeople) before. So that was my only real suspicion."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/11/earlyshow/main771012.shtml
"...weren't very pushy about their product..."
Pushy about their PRODUCT? What LOS would they be in that teaches them to be pushy about their product? Unless, of course, their "product" is the "opportunity"...
The 70% rule applies to what you sell to yourself. otherwise the 2 rules would contradict. In order to get a bonus for downline volume, you must RETAIL 50PV, $100 to M/C or have 10 M/C sales! The 50pv rule is easily enforced electronically. It harder for the corp to know if you've used or Retailed 70% of your volume before buying more. the 70% rule is to stop front loading to hit higher bonus levels. You must use or retail 70% before buying more.
Also, back on topic, anyone who says 'I was a Diamond but only made $30,000 in my best year', I believe to be full of sh!t. I've seen checks from Diamonds (not EDC) just Diamonds for over $120,000 in ONE MONTH!! So how does this Lorencz guy make less than my upline Platinum?! And now he won't show his checks/statements? Alterior motive perhaps? Axe to grind with the corp and now will say anything to make them look bad??
No thanks, bud - I'll believe what I see with my own eyes: my Diamond living in a $2mil house which he's got a 5 year loan for. And who makes at least $50,000 a month from just Quixtar alone, no tools!
Lawdawg,
I kind of figured out that your questioning was a cleverly disquised bait. The way you worded this question "Do the rules the way they are enforced today ensure that income in Quixtar is tied "primarily" to retail sales to non-distributors?" is one you know I can't possibly answer. Nice try baiting me lawdawg. Your debating was cool up until that one.
also, your contradiciton on your podcast about there may be close to 40 to 50 diamonds versus the often stated 14 to 17 damonds was good enough for me. Your response that you were "merely beng generous" is laughable. I would have accepted that you were wrong with your figures. But merely being generous? Ok an IBO can now give you an inflated PV amt he makes and his excuse from now on can be I'm merely being generous. Either you have too big of an ego or you've got a low self esteem that you won't possibly admit you were wrong with your analysis.
Lawdawg- please admit you were wrong with your analysis just once and we'll move on.
Yea, lawdawg, 1st of all, show me where it says that income in Quixtar has to be 'Primarily' from retail sales?? If an IBO is doing 300pv (100pv from M/C & 200pv personal use) and has 25 couples in his group doing the samething, he's at the 7500 level, but only 1/3 of his volume is going to 'non-distributors'. Do you have a problem with this IBO? He's more than following the FTC guidelines, isn't he? So then what's your point?
Also, Michael, you'll never get a critbot to admit he was wrong. They've always talked about the number of 'Diamonds and above' "mathmatically" being at only 31, but the 2004 Achieve shows that last year ALONE there were 50 New Diamonds and above. They use funny math and twist things around to come up with the numbers they want to show. And if he really said there's only 14-17, and then said 40-50, that shows you what he is, a number-twisting critbot.
Funny how you guys keep ignoring this one.
Michael, Tony, Emminem, Ryan Hicks, anyone care to explain these misconceptions shown by people selling the plan to new people??
What's so appalling about some of the pro-quixtar's posters is that so much of the "plan" has been proven wrong and hard numbers shows that the vast majority of people lose money in quixtar, yet no one sees through the deceit.
Let me dispel these again:
98% of people dead or broke by 65. Not true (I have links if needed)
95% of small businesses fail in 5 years.
Not true
Quixtar saves marriages. Not true
The FTC praised Amway in their 1979 ruling.
(Not true, ask Lawdawg)
We don't make money until you do.
Not true.
The profits from tapes and seminars are channeled back into the business to make future functions cheaper. Not true
Again, I'm not saying that no one makes money in quixtar, but the fact is that far more people lose money than make money in this venture. And it happens because they are fed these lies when prospected.
I'll address these...
J> 98% of people dead or broke by 65. Not true (I have links if needed)
T> I've only heard this on CD, I don't hear it in the plan at my open, and I don't use it in my plans. But I would like to see those links, cause I've tried to find recent data, but have not been able to. (and please don't link to amquix.info, etc.) I want to see actual date from the SSA, not some critbot.
J> 95% of small businesses fail in 5 years.
Not true.
T> We don't really use this in our plans either, but like I've said before, I 1st heard that in COLLEGE, not at an open. Maybe thats just a universal myth.
J> Quixtar saves marriages. Not true
T> Bullsh!t thats not true, how do you even think to say that? Like you shadow every couple in the business.? How would You know if someone's marriage was saved. The truth is, I know several couples locally who profess that things were rocky, or they were actually talking about divorce, but the the mentorship and the respect they learned to give each other, and having a common goal, helped them to fix their problems. Quixtar has most Definitely saved marriages. It might not save all, but it HAS saved marriages!
J> The FTC praised Amway in their 1979 ruling.
(Not true, ask Lawdawg)
T> you slay me! 'ask lawdawg' LOL! 1st of all I've NEVER heard Anyone say that the FTC 'Praised' Amway in their 1979 ruling - simply that the FTC deemed MLM, and LEGAL and Legitiment form of business!
J> We don't make money until you do.
T> As far as checks, go thats true, if someone joins my team, and does no volume, I'm not making any money from that person. Now I might make money from Other legs, but I need to help someone create some volume, in order for me to get a %. Now maybe with expsnes, he's not earning a profit, but he's at least getting a check, if he's not getting a check, I'm not making any $ (from him) either.
J> The profits from tapes and seminars are channeled back into the business to make future functions cheaper.
T> Where the h#ll did you get that from? I've Never heard anyone say that. But I have heard people say that there's money avalble from the Training and Support system too! And that if you talk at the rallies and seminars, you'll get paid for it!
My time and knowledge is worth money. I Should be compensated for it, it shouldn't be to make the next function cheaper!
Not sure where you got that one from?
http://www.amquix.info/pdfs/small_business_faqs.pdf
http://www.amquix.info/amway_retirement_legend.html
Tony, this links to an SBA website and social security website.
You're asking where I heard stuff like quixtar saves marriages, the FTC praised amway, worldwide is non profit, all that stuff? I heard it from Greg Duncan, Brad Wolgamott, Brad Duncan and some other diamonds. Maybe they don't teach that today, but it was taught back when I was in the business in 1997-1998.
In fact, all of that stuff was shown in the plan back when I was in the business. I guess the teaching evolves over time.
Hey Tony, why does Howie Danzik claim to have built his business as a single, and it's portrayed that way on the WWDB website. Guess what, I attendded a seminar wher Howie and Susan Danzik were the speakers. Did I dream that up or are they LYING????
Seems like these wonderful diamonds tell a lot of tall tales.
JoeCool is absolutely demoolishing you here Tony-Bot. You should tuck tail, throw down a ninja smoke bomb and disappear.
I remember DISTINCTLY hearing at a True North function by an on stage speaker that there is a 0% divorce rate in the business.
Where are all the other little Amtards anyway?
Better yet, where are your leaders? Tony, you should tell your leaders to come onto these sites and shut us up.
Or are they uncertain about what may be revealed?
Joe, I asked for current data, I've yet to see a link that shows what the Soc Sec Adm shows for people at age 65 now: As far as, how many still work, how many live on some form of assitance, etc.
I didn't ask where you heard all of that, I only asked on certain ones where you heard it, I'm not going to rehash my comments, I just wish you would have addressed each one I commented on like I commented on each of yours.
First of all I don't know Howie Danzik, but just because you saw him and his wife talk at a seminar doesn't mean he didn't build it as a single!! Are you high? Did you ever think maybe he build it to Emerald or maybe even Diamond as a single, and Then got married?? Paul Kopecky is 23, almost Emerald and single - but I'm sure he'll oneday be married. That doesn't mean he didn't build it as a single!!
I seem to hear more tall tales from Critics.
"also, your contradiciton on your podcast about there may be close to 40 to 50 diamonds versus the often stated 14 to 17 damonds was good enough for me."
Well, you said there were several contradictions. Which other ones, michael.
As far at the 50 or so diamonds, you can read why I used that number right here:
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2005/08/how-many-diamonds.html
I increased to 50 because I am being generous and giving Quixar the benefit of every doubt.
You can follow right along.
Now, how about answering my question, since I've been so patient in addressing your concerns? Which of those rules mentioned in the FTC's opinion does Quixtar have, and what does it do to enforce them?
Thanks.
"Yea, lawdawg, 1st of all, show me where it says that income in Quixtar has to be 'Primarily' from retail sales??"
Go look in the forum, there are links to tons of legal cases, statutes, and FTC opinions. I'm not posting it all here, because these are the blog comments. If you want to discuss it in the forum, I'll be happy to provide it.
Oh, if I could :roll my eyes: on here I would! lawdawg, if an IBO did 200pv personally & 100pv to m/c, and had 24 other IBO's doing the samething, he would be following the FTC guidlelines, and a very profitable Platinum. Thats all there is to it.
Q-12 bonus alone would be $10,000 every October. If he had 8 legs, each with 3 IBOships at 300pv, (900pv per leg), he'd be making over $3000 a month, not even counting any client retail profit.
"The 70% rule applies to what you sell to yourself. otherwise the 2 rules would contradict. In order to get a bonus for downline volume, you must RETAIL 50PV, $100 to M/C or have 10 M/C sales!"
No it doesn't, otherwise, why would the DSA find it necessary to lobby for state and federal laws (such as Sue Myrick's HR1220) to CHANGE the law to MAKE self-consumption count? The 70% and 10 customer rules (and ENFORCEMENT thereof) was part of what the FTC deemed to make Amway legitimate. Amway later unilaterally changed the rule to 50pv to any number. Would this rule pass muster with the FTC, even if it WAS enforced? Nobody knows, as it hasn't been tested yet. All that aside, if there's no selling to customers, it's not a business. Where does the money come from?
"... I'll believe what I see with my own eyes: my Diamond living in a $2mil house which he's got a 5 year loan for. And who makes at least $50,000 a month from just Quixtar alone, no tools!"
What you see with your own eyes may not mean what you think it does, especially if the one showing it to you has a vested interest in your continued participation (and the money you give them). Ever hear of "fake it til you make it"? How do you know when (if ever) he's quit faking?
You want to talk about twisting numbers, you alternately conflate and distinguish Amway/Quixtar (NA) with Amway (rest of the world) inappropriately in order to confuse the numbers. Let's do this again: Quixtar published the number of "IBO" at 340000 (NA), and also published the percentage of diamonds as 0.0076%. That's 1 out of 13158, or 25.84 (call it 25) diamonds in North America, plus the few "above" diamond likewise. That's where the first estimate comes from, and to deny it requires Quixtar itself to have published false data. The estimation has been revised upward somewhat based (check me on this) on the possibility of domestic diamonds having foreign legs, but this information is not available directly, so we are even more in the realm of speculation. You know, opinion.
50 new ones in a year? Hmm, doesn't "Achieve" publish worldwide recognitions, not distinguishing location? You can't apply that number to Quaxtar as is. How many of the 50 were in North America? How many fell out of qualification in North America during that same time? If you're talking about Quaxtar, which we are, those are the only ones that count, EVEN THOUGH, with foreign legs there may be a few more qualified in North America than accounted for purely by the statistics.
TONYBOT:"I'll believe what I see with my own eyes"
You are seeing what they want you to see.
It is unfortunate that you are too simple to understand that.
I'm sure when the $$ runs out, your senses will take hold of you again.
Good luck with that. In the meantime, why not get your upline diamond on here defending his great opportunity?
If not, why not? Is he not comfortable with reality?
HR 1220 is the Anti-pyramid promotion scheme act. Tell me how we're behind it.
The 50pv/$100/10 m/c rule IS enforced and is 'approved' by the FTC.
Bystandard> 50 new ones in a year? Hmm, doesn't "Achieve" publish worldwide recognitions, not distinguishing location?
T> ahhh, NO! Achieve only shows Quixtar IBOs, and it Does give their location!! If it showed all of Alticor, we'd have seen the 38 new Diamonds Leonard Kim had in Korea alone!!
Keep calling Quixtar 'quaxtar' critbot! Your arguments hold no water here anymore.
And once again, US IBOs Can have IBOs overseas, which wouldn't be in the Qx #'s. I know one IBO who has 10,000 people in his business in China! They don't appear as part of the 340,000. Not to mention is the .0076% of all or active IBO's, perhaps Thats throwing your #'s of too! All i know is there's more than 25. I thought the magic # was 31 anyways?, even though Achieve showed 50 NEW DIAMONDS AND ABOVE, for last year alone!!
Keep twisting #'s and ignoring facts! (Like overseas IBO's - who do you think sponsors them??)
Tony,
I attended that Howie and Susan Danzik rally & seminar. They spoke about all of their trials and tribulations, yet they finally made it to diamond together. Now Howie is married to Teresa Tsuruda (another WWDB diamond). On the WWDB website Danzik.wwdb, it says he built the business as a single. Is he lying??????
Also, about the SBA information, it's from 2001 and it says that 39% of small businesses last more than 5 years, and the ones that didn't, are not all failures (i.e. owner retires).
Tony, whether the information I gave you can be more current or not, it's inconsequential. Don't you get it? It doesn't matter if I give you more current information or not, what I've already done is exposed what the diamonds are teaching
as lies.
What about Brad Wolgamott telling people to quit their jobs if the boss won't let them have time off for a function??
Brad can tell you to kill yourself to get out of work! - you have to be a man and frickin think for yourself! - thats what I've heard My upline Diamond say - "be a free thinker".
Also, I've never heard Any Diamond tell people to quit there jobs to go to a function, but honestly, how often is this even an issue? There's 4 functions a year! Most people get 10 days vacation, its called allocate!! Plan ahead if you plan on taking off the Friday of a function.
And if for some reason your boss says you can't go that day, and you really want to go, just frinkin call in sick! I remember hearing Charlie Durso say he ate a bunch of Chinese food and got sick at his desk once. But dang if you just can't get off Friday, go down after work then, or Sat. morning. So I guess there's a few alternatives to quitting your job.
Could Howie have built it to Emerald as a single, then got married and the 2 of them Then fought their way to Diamond together?? Did you watch them get in as a couple? Do you even know how long it was until she got on board? Being a Silver whose wife is still not supportive or on-board, I might consider calling that building it as a single. But I don't know when they got married, he coulda been Ruby or Emerald, so if thats the case, until they were married, he Did build it as a single.
The out of date info was not the SBA data! I was talking about the 1935 report about people at retirement age! I'm still trying to find something from the SSA that talks about the different groups of people at retirement age. I've seen no proof that shows 23% of people aren't still working, or 40% living on the support of family, etc.
I could really care about the 95% of business fail. We don't teach it, but if I ever do talk about it, I'll say 'over 60% of small businesses are out of business in the 1st 5-6 years.
Once again, I'm in BWW - I don't care what WWDB, or Network 21 is saying. I'm responsible for what me and my team are doing. Don't You get it?
Tony:
Danzik.wwdb.biz
Howie and Theresa had each built their business to Diamond as singles; Theresa in Hawaii and Howie in Colorado. When they got married, it marked the first time in Quixtar’s history that two Diamonds were married.
Before starting the business, Howie spent 8 years getting two Bachelors’ and a Master’s degree in physical therapy.
Joecool> Hey Tony, before Howie got into the business, his wife worked and supported him while he was in college. They then built the business to diamond.
I'd say this was a lie, don't you???
Tony won't answer this one I suspect.
Well you suspect wrong Joe! All I can say if what I've said before, I Don't Know Them. Had never heard of them before. I don't know when his first wife got on board in their business. You have yet to offer any proof it was at 100pv. Nor have you offered any proof that he didn't work at all while in college, all you've said was she supported him, implying he wasn't working at all. Is that the case?
If he and his 1st wife in fact Did get in the business and both built it from the beginning, then he is one of those rotten apples making the rest of us look bad. And i'd like to know the reason for the divorce and what the settlement was.
All I know is he's not MY upline, or even in the same system as me, I'm BWW. Joe and Mary Beth Markiewicz Did build it together, they were early 20's when they met and built it. Alan & Michelle met in HighSchool, and built it together after college. Doug and Amy built it together and were both retired by 26. All 3 couples are still together!!
Funny how you focus on the Howie's and I focus on the Joe's, Alan's and Doug's. I wonder how some might read into that?
Tony,
I think you've got me all wrong here. I know Howie's not your upline or whatever. It doesn't matter. All I'm doing is pointing out yet another lie/misconception being sent out by a big pin. Heck when I was in the business, I actually believed most of the stuff the diamonds were teaching too. It's humorous to me now that I'm out.
You can call me a critic or critbot or whatever. Remember I have never said I hope you fail or that you should quit.
I simply get a kick of pointing out lies and deceptions given out by the diamonds and then seeing people actually believe what they hear.
I know that there are times when you must make your own decision. I was a 4000 pin. My upline told me to ditch my fiance' because she was holding me back. Well, I was already a 4000 and not making a lot of money so my decision to quit was easy.
I know you claim that your upline isn't like the upline Ihad, but from what I gather, my upline seems to be the most common.
You have to admit you expenses were not the expenses of most IBOs, most IBOs do not Fly to functions, or buy 7 tapes a week, and whatever else your uplines were telling you to do - so most 4000 pins are making $1000 on their checks and might have $400 in expenses.
I'm glad you didn't leave your fiance, but i think you made a mistake by leaving the business altogether. My sponsor was a 4000 pin like 10 months ago, now he's almost Platinum, has hit 9,000 PV, and just got his $1000 Gold bonus.
Showing that one guy lied about whether or not he went Diamond single or married, is not exactly exposing yet another lie. So your upline lied about that, tell me what MY upline has lied about. I understand your point, but that "lie" is pretty inconsequential. What does is really mean? I mean should I quit because of it? Should I quit because Howie went diamond with his 1st wife, and claims to have build his business as a single, which could still be true depending the perspective.
But show me where My upline has lied, on something significant like the average Diamond will make $150,000 a year. Not I built it as a single, well at least for a while.
You said, "I know you claim that your upline isn't like the upline Ihad, but from what I gather, my upline seems to be the most common."
Well I strongly disagree! Like I said beforem that isn't based on just my experience - its from my interaction from 100s of IBOs from 5 different Opnes in 4 different States. I've done traveling, I see how teams interact. I told you, the Markiewicz team is setting a new standard, we're building positive atmospheres where people Want to be, not feel forced to be!
You may want to look back into this if you had a passion for it, its ashame you had a pr!ck for an upline. You coulda made a real differnce. The money would have been better at Platinum, and Ruby, and if went 4000pv, you had what it took! But when good people quit because of the bad apples, whats that do to the ratio. We need more good ones, the bad ones are the ones fading away. The good ones, like my upline, are the ones moving on.
Tony,
I was in amway in 1997-1998. I didn't get in right away. A friend of mine came to me and showed me the plan. I told him to come back if he went direct. He went direct one year later. I then signed up.
After 2 months, I went 1000 PV, 4 wide and two legs with a downline. another two months, I hit 2500, basically doubling my business. And then about three months later, I went 4000. I can't remember the exact parameters of my business, but I was 12 wide and couple legs were three deep, some had one downline and some had no downline.
Even thru the excitement and growth, I truly did not enjoy the functions. My sponsor told me that serious IBO's buy 5-7 tapes per week, plus standing order. And if downline quit, you eat their standing orders too. We were also supposed to do 300 PV personal use. This was even taught on Greg Duncan's CORE tape I believe.
During this time, I started to suspect that money was made on tapes and seminars. My upline told me that WWDB was non-profit, but later went on to say that WWDB was for-profit, but that money made from sales only went to make future functions cheaper.
We were taught to quit jobs to get to functions, skip mortgage payments, skip a meal to buy a tape, etc. etc. Some others on this board have heard this before as well.
The final straw came when upline told me to dump my fiance' because if you go diamond as a single, girls will line up to meet you. Upline felt my girlfriend was holding me back (even though she supported my business 100%).
What I now see, and what you don't Tony, is that (not all) a lot of diamonds are ruthless cutthroat businessmen in nice suits and ties with nice smiles. They will pretend to mentor you (if you attend functions and buy tapes) and help you. But do you see them helping people outside of the business? Do they help their communities? There's a lot of dissension among diamonds, that's why you have BWW, WWDB, ILD, Network 21, etc etc. Many groups formed so the kingpin diamonds could control their own tape money. I see this clearly.
Tony, I know you don't see the business as I do and that's ok. I once saw the business as you currently see it. My goal here is to educate prospects so that if they join, the do so making an informed decision.
Hey Tony,
By the way, my former sponsor is still a direct. He was never gone ruby, his kids are growing up and they still spend many hours and evenings in a sitter's home. Some of his downline (my former crossline)
still have not gone above 1000 PV, some have not even sponsored a single person. By now they probably cannot deduct their business expenses as the IRS sees their business as a hobby. They gave up all of their hobbies to focus on the business.
Mr former sponsor is still a doctor who lives in a run down shack. Upline told him to live below his means.
This is what some pro-quixtar people are promoting? Is this the dream?
Lawdawg,
You seem to already know the answer to these questions, Why don't you entertain me by telling me what you think they still enforce? I am sure you know the compendium word for word since you are an attorney.
As far as your other contradictions I will listen to the podcast again this weekend and write them down- I just haven't had the time to go over it yet.
Perhaps I'm mistaken about "Achieve" (so much for none of us ever admitting an error), all I know is I see a lot of Kim's & Lee's & whatnot, and I'd like to know what year you saw 50 new diamonds. Now, of COURSE the hapless dupes in the foreign legs don't count in the 340000 North American chumps, but you see, that actually argues AGAINST there being more diamonds and up in North America on that basis. Remember, that 0.0076% of 340000 that QUAXTAR ITSELF publishes. Yes, that's 25, but it doesn't include the "and up". That "and up" is where 31 comes from. Do try to keep up.
How about that HR1220? Well, first of all, its TITLE may indicate it's an "anti-pyramid-scheme" law, but then you know how well the titles correlate with the intent, or at least the effect, of some of those laws. Read the text, I have. Oh, it'll reduce the number of illegal pyramid schemes, all right, by making things legal that are currently illegal. You know, like you'd have far fewer murders if you just made it legal to kill people! Likewise, the pertinent passage in HR1220 specifically allows personal consumption to be counted as "sales" for the purpose of determining whether a scheme is "pyramid" or not. Just so that outfits with negligible sales to non-participants, like, oh... we could probably think of one or two... can get away with it if they're ever investigated (again). Now get this... HR1220 was sponsored by Sue Myrick (R-NC) who is (or at least was) *gasp* an A/Q distributor! See the connection?
Tony: "if an IBO did 200pv personally & 100pv to m/c, and had 24 other IBO's doing the samething, he would be following the FTC guidlelines, and a very profitable Platinum. Thats all there is to it."
That's all there is to running a prohibited marketing scheme, yes.
Now you're getting it Tony. If you want, I'll show you on the forum how you are lying about the FTC guidelines for pyramid schemes.
so lawdawg,
then what is the ftc doing to shut down this 'illegal pyramid'? if the above example is not within ftc guidelines then what are they doing to shut down quixtar?
cause obviously most ibo's are doing even less m/c than the above example. i doubt a small % is actually doing 70% retail to m/c as you say the ftc requires. so why aren't they shutting them down, this is easily tracked! the ftc could easily see that if ibo "x" is doing 150pv and 50 of it is m/c...that ibo "x" has not done 70% to m/c, and therefore shouldn't get a bonus.
so why isn't the ftc shutting this company down? is it because the 70% rule is in fact not as you see it, but does include personal sales. how long has this company been around? is the ftc that inefficient and incoherent? or is it you?
mc:
You're not too bright, are you?
The FTC is not a court of law which can order an improperly run business to shut down. All it can do is define the parameters in what constitutes a legally structured business operating in society.
Furthermore, even a court of law would have a difficult time bringing charges against a company which is infamous in playing the corporate shell game; effectively hiding themselves amongst it's "independent" distribution force in order to elude restraint of business trade charges that many attorneys have unsuccessfully tried to make stick against this fleabag of a corporation.
The FTC is that inefficient and incoherent. They've shut down several schemes that operate the same way as AmwayQuixtar in recent years:
BigSmart
Equinox
Trek Alliance
SkyBiz
In each case they have repeated the same rule: for an MLM to avoid being a prohibited marketing scheme, the majority of the compensation must be paid out on sales of goods or services to consumers who are NOT participants in the scheme.
I can show you a dozen court decisions and twenty or so state statutes that define it that way as well.
Why hasn't the FTC done anything about this particular pyramid scheme? Ask the FTC. I suspect it has something to do with the amount of money Amway/Quixtar has given to Republicans over the years and the likely cost of prosecuting such a large scam.
BTW, regardless of whether the FTC ever does ANYTHING about Quixtar, Quixtar is still a piss-poor "business opportunity."
Michael:
Qblog,
This is directly quoted from your forums:
From Joecool:
"Most people who are familiar with the business know that it takes about $2.50 to earn 1 PV. And generally 1 PV equals 2 BV. Therefore to make 7500 PV and 15,000 BV, a direct distributor (DD) and his/her group would have to spend $18,750 per month, or $225,000 per year to maintain that business.
To make a diamond business, you would need a diamond with at least 2500 side PV ($6,250 a month) plus six (6) direct legs @ $18,750 per month. Therefore, a diamond group minimally would need to spend about $118,750 per month to earn enough PV to maintain a diamondship. This would equate to $1,425,000 spent per year to maintain the directs and the diamond.
This would generate 47,500 PV and 95,000 BV per month which would equate to $23,750 in bonus money each month. (25% of 95,000 BV = $24750) In a year this would generate $285,000 in bonuses.
If a direct earns $4000 a month , that’s about $24,000 a month with 6 directs. In a year, that’s $144,000. So if the directs earn $144,000 it would be (in theory) possible for a diamond to get about $141,000 a year ($285,000 - $144,000)."
I am not refuting Joecool's numbers, just this guy Don Lorencz. I've never heard of him before today's post.
In my opinion,How much your sponsor earns doesn't count. You can't buy groceries with your upline's money. If you are purchasing a traditional franchise, then it's perfectly acceptable to ask how much they earn, you ARE investing in that brand name and that company.
Posted by: Michael at August 10, 2005 04:02 PM
Michael, you took that out of context because in my post, it says that those figures do not take into account that the 100 PV and lesser IBO's must also get their PV checks. So if all of those directs pay their downline, including the diamond, you're looking at substantially less income.
when it is stated (in qx released stats) that the average diamond ibo makes $150,000 a year, that means what HE makes. quixtar pays ibo's directly! people don't cut checks to their downline anymore! some of you (older critics) are still in the amway era!
mlm, so I'M not too bright huh? 1st of all, You're the one who can't remember what he wrote 2 hours later?
and 2nd...
mlm> The FTC is not a court of law which can order an improperly run business to shut down"
didn't lawdawg just list like 4 mlm's that the FTC shut down!? looks like you're still eating paint chips! lol!
Joecool,
why is that something YOU stated in the forum is taken out of context? Are we backpeddling now?
when it is stated (in qx released stats) that mc wrote:
"the average diamond ibo makes $150,000 a year, that means what HE makes. quixtar pays ibo's directly! people don't cut checks to their downline anymore! some of you (older critics) are still in the amway era!"
mlm, so I'M not too bright huh? 1st of all, You're the one who can't remember what he wrote 2 hours later?
Well, you're not only not too bright, but you are also being very dishonest here. The statements that you quoted above were not made by myself.
and 2nd...
"mlm> The FTC is not a court of law which can order an improperly run business to shut down"
didn't lawdawg just list like 4 mlm's that the FTC shut down!? looks like you're still eating paint chips! lol!"
No mc, you're the one who is eating paint chips here.
The FTC is a regulatory agency that does have enforcement powers over the trade practices conducted by for-profit businesses in the United States. The FTC can issue cease & desist orders against businesses that they feel are in violation of various unfair trade statutes that have been enacted into law over the years, but they cannot shut a company down by themselves. They have to bring a lawsuit action against that company as the prosecutor, and obtain a judgment against them before they can legally be shut down.
Next time try doing your own research on the matter, instead of blindly taking somebody else's word for it. But then again, you quixbots are so used to following that practice with your leech sucking uplines that you really don't have that intellectual capability anymore.
Perhaps MC is one of those leech sucking uplines.
Oh, I think so.
Nah. Just another Quixtard.
MC> when it is stated (in qx released stats) that the average diamond ibo makes $150,000 a year, that means what HE makes. quixtar pays ibo's directly! people don't cut checks to their downline anymore! some of you (older critics) are still in the amway era!
Joecool> Tell me where I said the diamond cuts checks?
MC> Joecool,why is that something YOU stated in the forum is taken out of context? Are we backpeddling now?
Joecool> MC, it was taken out of context because when I did that post about potential diamond income, I clearly said that the potential income is with the diamonds and platinums receiving all of the income. Last time I checked, you get a bonus for doing 100 PV, 300 PV, 600 PV, etc. Are you saying no one gets paid except for the platinums and up?
Here's the part you left out:
However, if you make this assumption, then that means that the 50-100 other IBO’s in each direct group would have made nothing in order for the directs and the diamond to make those dollars. Let’s say this diamond group has 500 active IBO’s and let’s say they each earn $6 a month doing 100 PV. 500 x 6 = 3000 a month, or $36,000 a year.
Therefore whatever the downline is paid would be that much less income for the platinums and the diamond.
Joecool - I think you should've rephrased this line: JC18> "So if all of those directs pay their downline, including the diamond, you're looking at substantially less income."
That does make it sound like you're thinking people still cut checks to downline. IMHO.
But what was your point? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just wondering what arguement you were trying to make. that some people have to make $0 in order for Diamonds to make money. Thats not true. You make $0 for doing Zero vloume. Whoever does 100 points is gonna make about $7.50 just like the plan shows. If you do 1000PV with some structure or M/C, you're gonna make $200-$300! If you Do the volume, you'll make the money! And the average Diamond makes about $150,000, Average Founders Diamond makes about Quarter Mil! You get paid for the volume you create. If your checks are $0, thats your call. Just drinking a couple XS and a couple protein bars a day is about 100pv.
Oh and mlm- are you gonna give Joecool crap for misquoting MC? Joe, mc never said anything was taken out of context, Michael was the one who asked you that.
Tony,
MC quoted my hypothetical scenario for a diamond group's income. He only quoted the part about the potential income, but he left out my statement that said these figures do not include PV bonuses for downline. When you factor in that smaller IBO's may get $7, $10, or whatever, the monies that the directs and daimonds keep would be less in my hypothetical situation.
I understand MC's point that quixtar pays the bonuses now but what I question about that is whether the diamond is claiming his downline bonuses as part of his income? That quotation taught by the diamonds "fake it till you make it" was totally true. When I used to shop the
plan, I flashed my $1000 PV check as proof that the business worked but I didn't mention that $300 to $400 of it was paid downline.
It's just like building a business to direct (for example) then going diamond, getting divorced and advertising on the WWDB website that you built the diamondship as a single. It's a bit misleading isn't it.?
Tony> But what was your point? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just wondering what arguement you were trying to make. that some people have to make $0 in order for Diamonds to make money.
Joecool> Tony, in my scenario, I totaled the PVBV for a hypotthetical diamond group. Here it is:
To make a diamond business, you would need a diamond with at least 2500 side PV ($6,250 a month) plus six (6) direct legs @ $18,750 per month. Therefore, a diamond group minimally would need to spend about $118,750 per month to earn enough PV to maintain a diamondship. This would equate to $1,425,000 spent per year to maintain the directs and the diamond.
This would generate 47,500 PV and 95,000 BV per month which would equate to $23,750 in bonus money each month. (25% of 95,000 BV = $24750) In a year this would generate $285,000 in bonuses.
Ok Tony, so when I did the scenario where the directs earn a toal of $144K and the diamond making $141K (Total 285K), that did not take into account, the smaller downline bonuses. This was just a scenario of how much total income a diamond group could generate without regard to downline. So what I was saying is that a diamond group could possibly generate $285K with 6 Q12 directs and the diamond doing 2500 side volume. So when I made my summary statement, I said that the diamond could make that much if everyone else in his business made nothing.
You and I both know that there will always be downline bonuses, therefore the diamonds income would be $285K, less money paid to the directs and smaller downline IBO's.
from Tony:
"Oh and mlm- are you gonna give Joecool crap for misquoting MC? Joe, mc never said anything was taken out of context, Michael was the one who asked you that."
Sorry dude, but Joecool is a good friend of mine. We go way back on the main forum area together.
How can you be friends with someone you aren't in business with? ;0)
Joe, then I agree with you, the average Diamond makes about $150,000 a year from Qx. And a Founders Diamond makes about $250,000 from Qx.
Out of the total $285,000 a Diamond keeps $150,000, so thats almost half of his total to downline. The numbers make sense to me. Go Diamond and make $150,000 a year! I'm glad we agree.
Tony> Joe, then I agree with you, the average Diamond makes about $150,000 a year from Qx. And a Founders Diamond makes about $250,000 from Qx.
Out of the total $285,000 a Diamond keeps $150,000, so thats almost half of his total to downline. The numbers make sense to me. Go Diamond and make $150,000 a year! I'm glad we agree.
Joecool> I agree that this income is possible, but from what I understand, most diamonds do not have 6 Q12 legs, that's why some of them teeter totter between qualifying and not?
Some Diamonds teeter totter if they have 1 or more legs that are close to 7500. Negative can get in and wipe out a whole team. Somebody doesn't follow the 3 cardinals and cheats on a spouse, and that could cause a whole team to lose faith in their upline- a 4000pv group might fall back to 1500. That's gonna cause the upline Platinum to drop from 8,000 down to 5500, and the Diamond is now back to 5 legs over until that group recovers.
Thats not the norm, most legs built right, that follows the principles, don't encounter such problems. A team with momentum keeps growing. Joe M is a new Double Diamond!
Most Diamonds Don't have 6-Q12 legs because by definition if they Had 6 Q-12 legs they'd be a Founders Diamond. But I know what you meant. But most Diamonds move on to Founders, or EDC. But the averages are the averages. You can say "I agree the income is possible" - its not just possible Joe - its there! That's the average! For a Diamond- $150,000, for a Founders Diamond its $250,000. Those are the #'s.
Tony> Most Diamonds Don't have 6-Q12 legs because by definition if they Had 6 Q-12 legs they'd be a Founders Diamond. But I know what you meant. But most Diamonds move on to Founders, or EDC. But the averages are the averages. You can say "I agree the income is possible" - its not just possible Joe - its there! That's the average! For a Diamond- $150,000, for a Founders Diamond its $250,000. Those are the #'s.
Joecool> WWDB Brad Wolgamott was a diamond (now EDC?) back when I was in the biz. I think he went diamond in 1994 or something. Ok, so founder's diamond is 250K. Let just just say Brad made on average, 450,000 a year each year since
1994. That means he made about 5 million in that time. Taxes will have eaten up about 2 million for that tax bracket, leaving Brad with 3 million net dollars over 11 years, or about $273K per year next dollars. That's an awesome income!
Can you explain how he owns a million dollar home, a private jet, a pilot, a fleet of sports cars, a chauffeur, etc etc etc with that income, and how was he able to pay cash for those items?
Tony> Somebody doesn't follow the 3 cardinals and cheats on a spouse, and that could cause a whole team to lose faith in their upline
Joecool> Tony, I'm not sure what those three rules are now, but when I was in the biz, I think one of them was to never bounce a check. I think my upline taught us that right before my PV check bounced.
Joe, bouncing a check isn't one of them, but in a way it is - "Never mess with anyone's money" is one of them. Bouncing a check would fall into that category. We've already established your sponsor was an idiot, and if he bounced a check to you, he wasn't following the "3 nevers".
But of course that would never be an issue now. Upline don't pay PV checks anymore. Quixtar pays each IBO directly with check or Direct Deposit. Nice little improvement.
Tony,
That's not entirely true. WWDB still issues their own bonus checks and still does call in and pick up. I'm not sure why but some people on this board have confirmed it.
Tony> No thanks, bud - I'll believe what I see with my own eyes: my Diamond living in a $2mil house which he's got a 5 year loan for. And who makes at least $50,000 a month from just Quixtar alone, no tools!
Joe> Did your upline tell you this? I don't know of any bank that issues 5 year mortgages and it would be really poor money management to make a personal loan for a house.
I am 18 years old, and I will e in Platinum Qualfication in 3-4 months.
Got in business when i was 17. Not even 3 months in. What is so hard about it.
And that such mathematical equation of yours, who says that th individual it self has to spend that. Keep in mind, Quixtar is just a supplier, and all the do is use a pont system to track the products being moved. If giant, walmart, foodline... etc.. are places we all shop at, yet we dont get recongnized for it. Considering they dont use a point system for redemption of performance in developing a network of loyal customers to the #14th largest website online.
enjoy.
We are goin Diamond
It's still amazing to me that there are so many people out there that just don't get it. They use up all their energy to prove that there is something wrong with quixtar, when the truth of the matter is they just don't understand. But don't worry folks, there's a lot of misunderstanding people out there. It's funny how no matter how great something is, there's got to be a rotten apple in the bunch that will say something bad about it. For example, there are hate websites about Mother Theresa!! Sickening, isn't it? So whatever. I guess no one's perfect. There's all this talk about quixtar being a pyramid. Do you even know what a pyramid is?! Most people take part in a pyramid everyday! It's called a JOB. Go ahead and support someone else's family, buy a brand new Jaguar for your boss. It's what most of America is doing, right? America doesn't teach their people to own their own businesses and support your own family and all that good stuff. They teach us to spend a ridiculous amount of money on college, then hopefully get a good paying job working for SOMEONE ELSE. Doesn't make any sense. But whatever. If quixtar was so illegal, don't you think we would've been shut down by now? Or why would our fortune five hundred companies risk so much just to be one of quixtar's partner stores? People just don't think. But like I said before...whatever. You can go to your pyramid everyday and support your oh so loving boss and his entire family. Be sure to bring a pillow and make yourself comfortable because you'll be there for awhile. For those of you who try to look for some kind of itty bitty flaws of quixtar, just shut up. You're annoying and ignorant. MAYBE you should think twice about what your saying and look at the reality of it. How do you lose money buying commodities? You're going to spend that money anyway, might as well spend it on your own business and get a kick back for it. Might as well support yourself instead of someone else, right? Nah, don't mean to down on anyone, but it's just really beginning to bug me. If you don't understand something, don't say anything because you're irritating.
forget going diamond and making millions, is quixtar legit for pulling in 1-3,000$ each month, with a little work and know how?
I read this article and about half the comments. Never in all my life have I heard so much nonesense omg. Im sorry but I dont really think any of you really know what your talking about.
WTF??? None of this sh*t is true!!! Quixtar is a great business and will generate a lot of income for you. This freackin loser doesn't know what he's talking about. If I were one of you guys who are right now looking for bad stuff about Quixtar, then I suggest you stop looking. Go to the person who talked to you about this business. Go to functions and get introduced to real diamonds who earn real money and shut the fu*k up because this business is anything BUT FAKE!!!!
For the nay sayers, what exactly is the definition of a pyramid ? Answer...it's illegal, only cash flows through it and the person at the top makes all the money. The FTC and BBB are aware of Amway and Quixtar Inc...for many years I might add. The BSM'S, are all positive motivational ie. John Maxwell, Bill Quain etc...in sum I have found this to be a productive business. If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you're half way there !!!!!
You know this whole pyramid sh*t. The person at the top makes more $$ than the person at the bottom. BULL!!!! If you only have one qualified leg and your leg has a lot more legs and pv than you....He's going to be getting more than you!!!! So this puts an end to the whole "pyramid where the guy at the top makes more $$". Like I said BULL!!!! If you still only have that one qualified leg and he goes platinum, you will only get $800 dollars while he's making $2,700!! So think about this, who's making more MONEY???? THE GUY WHO WORKS HARDER!!! NOT THE GUY AT THE TOP!
People who are here to bash this company are just motherf**king sore losers!!! JUst because they didn't have the drive, the ambition, the endurance, THEY FAILED. So they feel like a failure and to make themselves feel better, they'll bash what they think got them to fail. What they don't understand is that IT WAS THEM, that caused themselves to fail, NOT QUIXTAR!!. These are the weak kinds. Beware of them. They'll try to bring you down along. LOSERS AND FAILURES IN LIFE, it's what they are. And they want to bring more people down with them, as if seeing someone else fail is going to make the feel better. And if you are one of these bashers, failure, reckless person and you're reading this right now, then SHUT THE F**K up!!! GET A LIFE AND GET ON WITH IT. DON'T TRY TO BRING PEOPLE DOWN WITH YOU JUST BECAUSE YOU FAILED!!!
I have recently joined quixtar and have already started making money. True I could grow faster by spending more money on my own stuff but i only buy what i need or would normally get. I don't buy any motivational materials because my upline lets me use theirs. I also have yet to pay for a meeting or event. I have gotten into all so far for free. I am not one to just go ahead and join a scam, but i do have dreams and i'll at least try something that might help me accomplish my dreams. And hey! there's a 6 month guarentee!!!
Also to those of you who ask about seeing peoples tax records and such, 3 members of my upline have showed me proof of what they make. My group leader who helps me out almost daily will be a certified diamond in 3 months and just became a millionaire.
As for all the people who fail, it's because not everyone is cut out for quixtar. They get excited at the ideas and dreams but when it comes to actually working on something they lose their drive. Unfortunatly there's a lot of big dreamers out there who are too lazy to work for their dreams.
i just came back from a "conference" in vegas for Q. I went to check it out since a friend asked, it was free, and it was vegas. i work in realestate, am a soldier in the us army, and am already an IBO in another buisness. What i found was discouraging from the begining to end. I was stunned when they started singing religious songs, and dancing and raising their arms up. no disrespect to anyones religion but that is done in church not at a buisness conference. i thought religion and buisness was two different things. and it focused so much on faith and god that i was disgusted with the lack of proffessionalism. also they had couples come up and talk about their success, but were are all the single individuals? do you have to be happily married to know how to make money? come on..i was at my wits end of hearing about the "MEN" getting out there and working hard and the "LADIES" being there to support their husbands. the message they are putting out is that in order for you to succeed in this buisness which obviously runs more as a job rather than your own buisness, is that you must be an angel and a half, traditional, housewife, who helps out by selling makeup. i realized that the only way to create these "relationships" within the ranks was to kiss ass big time, be quiet about what bothers you, and promote whjatever they tell you as if you are a puppet. i didnt like many things about Q and i told them all to the person who invited me. the response i received was lacking and elusive. i fealt like i was listening to a great politician trying to run circles around the truth. i had a bad feeling from the begining but i wanted to give it a chance. after 3 days of their brainwashing attempts i escaped unscaithed. i cant even imagine how people fall into a trap that is so obvious. i think that a lil less time spent praising your lord whoever that may be and a lil more time informing yourself, reading buisness magazines, newspaper, etc might do a lot of people a lot of good. sorry im not willing to buy products from my own buisness to make my money back, thats ridiculous no matter how they promote it. if my prducts are so easy to sell, then i should be cashing out on other people buying them, and use that money to buy whatever the heck i want, expensive or not name brand or not, from the grocery store or from specialty store. my money my decision. Rules? who has rules...a professional buisness? are we in third grade playing life? rubys emeralds, diamonds? is someone loving themselves a lil too much there? if we are all independant buisness owners, why all this applauding and loving and gratefulness to your sponsers? they are your gods now i see. you worship them like a dog worships its owner, and hope they pet you on the head today. distgusting that this group can even call itself a business. how much more money are you going to spend before you realize that you are being used. that your weakness for your faith is their weapon. wake up ~ smack yourselves around a bit, and realize what i realized in 3 days with a CLEAR mind, not boggled down with propriety, religion,and traditions, but instead with a spirit of free will, logistics, and survival instinct, because i am a survivor. but why be a survivor of a tragedy rather than avoiding it? if its working for you great, then your part of the inner circle, of favorites, if its not working for you , your not good enough for them by their standards, and so you will continue to fail for yourself, and produce by your will to learn and read and listen for improvement a nice profit for them. Hellooo mc'fly...
I couldn't agree more with shakedown. This is supposed to be a business? They got me to go to the "function" which cost $100. What did I get out of it you ask? Nothing but fake success stories of losers scamming off the little guys.
Sunday was the kicker, the team leader, Larry Winters, preached for over 3 hours. Needless to say I was asleep the whole time, but after that I said that anyone who doesn't cram up to the front is going to hell. WTF?
This is brainwashing at its highest level. I am ashamed to admit that I was involved for about a month before I realized what a scam this is.
At first I thought: "Hey, its kind of weird that all these people are couples that are obsessed with religion, but I can still do it as a single" Well, I have found out otherwise.
The business is a joke, people only do it because it tries to justify God and they do it because their upline makes them feel good.
How good are the going to be feeling a year from now, 4 functions later, countless open meetings, and thousands in "tool" money, all while spending $2000 on products all to get a measley $10 bonus check each month?
Joe isn't your ex-wife in the business? And did she not remarry and continues to have a successful diamond business without you? You are a former IBO who lost his diamondship in the divorce, right? It is funny how you keep leaving that out.
is there anyone here. my wife and i just met with a succesful dr in the area who markets quixstar, he wants us to sign up and i have to say we are very interested. now i see all these comments and i am looking for a little truth. please help
In response to david :
Quixtar is all about dreams and a "system" to help you reach them. You don't make any money on it until you get platinum and for the products, the prices are ridiculy expensive. Please, for your own good, even if you really want more in life, don't get into quixtar.
I have personnally met a former Emerald (pretty high status - three platinums under him) who QUIT the business because he was sick of the lies and people spending all their money on tapes, books and seminars. The truth is nobody buys the products (I have seen his monthly statement) cause they are overprices and you already put all your money in the "system".
Quixtar is all about losing money or make others (sometimes family and friends) lose money... and often a lot of it.
Melaleuca is another business opportunity and it makes much more sense. Try it instead and don't listen to your upline who's gonna ask you : "did that guy on the blog seemed to have a lot of success in life?"...I have tried quixtar and it is not worth it, learn from my mistake instead of following the steps of someone already losing money on the "system" I'm talking about.
Hey David
Look you want the truth here it is; like all businesses, Quixtar has its pro's and its Cons, and very often the difforence can be in who ever shows you the plan. I was contacted twice about the business, the first time and said the guy had to be crazy, the second time i got hoked! i had an exceent team that really explained what was going on, and what it really was all about.
This business is not easy, is not a over night million dollar bill. But it is not rocket science either, and you can make million if you really want to put the time into it.
Your upline shoudl explain that you can make quick money, but you will have to sell stuff on your own (esrping, vitamins and such)
to amek thereal money, take your time, and do it right, Books and CDs are just to keep you motivated, they work for some, and not for others, and yes it does get expencsive if your buyong everythign but not makign alot. Ask you upline and they shuold be more than willing to lend you tools and such until you have a established business.
If they are unable or un-willing to do this, i woudl still think abotu joining the business, but not with this person. talk to the upline platnum or the Emerald, adn they shoudl be able to guide you.
if you have any question, feel free to contact me David.
glad to see the quixstar documentary. I have been introduced to the business this week. I could put my hands on what wrong about it but had a sinking feeling inside
i'll keep this short and sweet. according to the quixtar plan as outlined in the BWW Fipchart's small print, 66 percent of independent business owners in quixtar are active. of the active ibo's .006 percent are diamonds. that's 6 out of one-hundred-thousand active ibo's (which you must remember is 66 percent of people who sign up). ask any ibo to explain how this is fair . . . or as they will say "a level playing field." the lottery is a level playing field too. but you don't have to dedicate your life or your family's time or your closest friendships to it.
I am very happy to say that I have never got into quixtar! I have done alot of research on this company and found out that they are a cult and most of the proQs who have commented on this site sound like they have been programmed very well. I guess their upline is doining a wonderful job and is probobly getting a nice bonus for it secretly ofcourse! I started doing research on companies like Quiktar and Melaleuca because I was doing a research paper on "Internet Business Scams!" being a criminal justice student I was very interested in the subject. I thought I would give you a little background on me because I wanted to tell you that I have nothing to gain by telling everyone that these so-called businesses
(Quiktar & Melaleuca) are scams! Stay away from them if you want to save your wallet!
I dont see what the fuss is all about. This scheme is no different to selling avon goods or kleeneze, or any other mail order goods. If you make effort, you will move units, downlines dont matter, but the truth is that human nature dictates that we get bored lazy demotivated, and thats why i guess that these seminars go on and these tapes are plugged, to keep peoples spirits up as when they first joined. Its not Amway that is to be questioned, its the individual, either you will strive and break your back for success, or you will judge your business on a month's effort.
I know i get lazy after a month or two, that is the only thing that stops me getting involved, and nothing else. Mis-selling? all jobs have lies embedded in them, doesnt matter what industry you are in, ive experienced this in every job ive done, from insurance, to retail, to education, and have many friends in medicince and dentistry, and they are no diffrrent. Capitalism is based on unethical grounds, full stop. Amway is a target because it has worked very well where other scheme creators have failed.
And how ethical is this site, and most sites these days? For those who dont know it, let me tell you. Majority of websites where the webmaster encourages you to post you views are basically a way to create free content for the website owner, so ultimateley creating more money making opportunities for the webmaster through all the adverts placed around, such as google adsense (see bottom of each page). The webmaster ultimatley doesnt care for your Amway losses, he has just found a brilliant topic for which he knows YOU will post views, thus creating more pages for him to plaster advertising on, advertising that makes HIM money. Open your eyes and see that nobody is your friend, everyone is in it to make money, and that includes foremost the host of this site, who is worse than Amway, because he pretends to be consoling you for your losses, when really he revels in your posts that give him more money making opportunities. Webmaster, what can you say to that? By the way, i dont work for Amway, or any other organisation, im learning about making money on the internet and trying to work out how to get traffic, your idea is nice, i may create a forum for people to discuss their losses, and then puts adverts on each page, nice one for the idea mate!
Quixtar is the most dishonest and unethical company I have ever seen. This company teaches it IBO's through cult tactics. I know this for a fact. My 20 year old son was on the deans list during his first year of college. Well rounded, very intelligent individual. When Quixtar first indoctrinated him they used sleep depervation tactics. They have him listen to tapes, read books and spend all extra time with the "group" He now goes to church with his "group" and does not feel comfortable around family or friends. DON'T LET YOUR COLLEGE CHILD GET INVOLVED IN THIS ORGANIZATION!!!!!!
well I was told that every thing we go to is a tax write off. The function for us is in nashville in june. I have a meeting with my upcore tonight. I have a feeling I am going to get registered tommrow night.
GET A LIFE
Guys. Go get a life. If it didn't work for you, and you already quit, why are you wasting your time trying to prove it doesn't work. Are you getting paid big bucks by someone to do this? If not logically I would think a person in his senses will rather put all this effort in something that will make him successful after all.
And you guy for whom it is working, why do you bother fighting people who have nothing better to do, or maybe someone who is getting paid to do this job so that he can distract more people who are succeeding so that the success average comes lower.Obviously it is because it is such a waste of time that your leaders dont bother about these mud slingers.
Haven't you heard that people sling mud and throw eggs only at people who stick thier head up doing something worthwhile.So stop wasting your time here. You will only be helping these guys make thier easy big bucks by slinging mud and achieving thier goals in thier job of distarcting people like you.
There could be some rebuttals that according to plan, it's just not possible, but many Diamonds are not currently qualified diamonds. So in that case, 35 K is not unlikely.
Posted by: Imran | August 10, 2005 4:47 AM