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July 26, 2005
Majority or Minority?
By QBlog in Miscellaneous
In most organizations, from multinational corporations to your local chess club, there are "good" and "bad" apples. A good apple might be someone you like and respect while a bad apple might be someone you despise and avoid. Most people can tolerate a few bad apples in an organization if it's primarily comprised of good apples.
However, when the good and bad apple ratio shifts, and the bad apples begin outnumbering the good ones, the entire organization suffers and often becomes intolerable. To better illustrate my point I'll provide an example.
Imagine that Mary volunteers at a homeless outreach. She enjoys working with others to help those less fortunate. Mary doesn't mind that out of the 15 staffers and 40 volunteers there are a couple of men who swear like sailors and tell crude jokes during break. She makes it clear that she doesn't appreciate such behavior and chooses not to fraternize with them during her breaks.
Now, imagine that same outreach filled with cursing sailors. Almost every staffer, including the director, is a crude son-of-a-gun who pokes fun at the homeless behind their backs. After volunteering for a couple of uncomfortable weeks Mary decides to find another outreach, one where she feels more comfortable. She later learns that the outreach she started with has a bad reputation within the community.
Professor Yeti
Yesterday I discovered an interesting post about Quixtar from Professor Yeti. Get Behind Me, Quixtar describes a first encounter with a Quixtar IBO who's pitch is legally challenged at best.
But now was the time for the method of this miracle machine to be unveiled. Quixtar, he explained, is like an online mall where you get paid to shop. The secret is that you can only sign up through word-of-mouth advertising - in this case the mouth being Jerry's. You buy things you'd buy anyway, like soap and toilet paper, but with key differences: the products are 30% cheaper, you get a percentage of your money back, and you have the chance to sign up others and receive percentages of profit from what they buy. And who of your friends and family wouldn't want to sign up, knowing they're getting things cheaper and that you, their friend or relative, are making money in the process?
You absolutely must read the entire post, it's quite revealing. There's not a single mention of retailing products to anyone.
What I'm wondering about is if Professor Yeti's experience is the exception or the rule? I've asked this question before but I think it deserves repeating.
Time and time again I find blog posts recounting a Quixtar IBO encounter where the IBO misrepresented the opportunity, misled or lied to the blogging prospect. Such experiences are consistent with the testimonies I find in my inbox, on Forums and in the comments of this blog.
I hear that there are some IBOs who correctly and ethically present the plan. I know a few who do this and I applaud them for obeying the law and Quixtar's own rules. Yet I can't help but think that those IBOs are a small minority, outnumbered by the types that Professor Yeti (and others) describe over and over again.
Does Quixtar have some heroes? You bet. Does it have some scoundrels? Of course. Are there many more heroes than scoundrels? I'm not sure if I can answer that question. Can you?
Comments
Rocket, you hit the nail right on the head. I really don't blame most of the IBO's in this "business"(cough cough). Especially the new ones. Like you said most of them are between the ages of 19-25 and really have no business sense what so ever. They're very impressional at that age and want to believe with all their heart they can have everything in life they've ever wanted and do it at their own pace. They only do what they are told to do by the scammers on top of the pyramid that flash fancy cars, big houses, yachts and millions of dollars.
Almost every new IBO was deceived when they were shown the plan and went to that first seminar where they got started. They are never told to sell to customers. They are taught from their uplines and tapes etc. "buy from yourself and teach others to do the same" even though it's in violation of Quixtar rules. Brand new IBO's signing up for Quixcam (Quick Scam) have no idea this rule even exists and therefore would have no clue they're being deceived. Nor do they realize when showing the plan they are deceiving others. This deception all starts at the top with the diamonds. If this was any kind of ethical business all the cards would be laid on the table.
I've never understood the comparisons between Quixcam and any other business. Businesses such as Walmart and Mcd's make all their money from end users. Customers outside of their respective businesses. Yet Quixcam IBO's make their money by people inside the "business" that produce volume?? I don't get that. Can you imagine a manager at your local McD's interviewing a potential employee and saying "Now to make money all you have to do is eat 2 Big Mac meals a day and teach others to do the same" LOL. How ridiculous does that sound.
Quixcam's business model is nothing more that a weak cover up of an obvious pyramid.
I feel sorry for all the people that honestly just want to make some extra money but don't know what they're getting into.
I can only speak from my personal experience. Yes, the overwhelming majority of them are scoundrels. However, the worst of the worst for me came from my brother's upline (I'll refer to him as dick). My brother and his wife are devout Christians and a little naive (I guess that made tham perfect targets.) Dick convinced my brother and his wife that Qx would be their ministry; first, they would help meet people's financial needs with Qx, then they could help meet people's spiritual needs. Dick even convinced them to nuy more Qx products with 15% of their income and give those products to their church as a tithe. I went to meetings because it was the only time I got to see my brother. At these meetings, I heard people tell IBO's to look for prospects in the self-help section of Barnes and Noble. Dick even told people that Meg Ryan was in the business, and she was part of his upline. I also heard him tell a rookie IBO that he should attend a large function even if he had to sell his wife (the rookie had said he did not have the money for travel expenses.) Dick even told my brother to look at all of my friends as potential prospects. As a result, I could not invite my brother and his wife to anything, and I never introduced them to any one. It's been seven years since they joined Qx and one year since they quit attending functions. They still buy products (actually, they stockpile them.) They have three kids; they are still renting their house; they have one car. The damge Qx did to their credit and their relationships with family and friends was severe. Every IBO I have encountered has never told me Qx has anything to do with amway, even when directly asked. Every IBO I have encountered has given me the internet mall pitch and has told me that their products were cheaper than the products I would ordinarily buy. I found the products to be overpriced as well as low quality. One thing I hate is being lied to and that is the only thing that the Qx people I encountered did.
When we were shown the plan in 1993, we were told the exact same thing (less the internet angle). It was all presented as a way to buy from yourself and find others and teach them to buy from themselves. This message persisted the 4 years we were in the business. Some things never change.
If you take a look at the people who were deceived, I don't think you can attribute the deception to a lack of intelligence or common sense. That, to me, is blaming the victim for the crime.
I believe that the overwhelming majority of IBOs are TRAINED scoundrels. By that, I mean that if they had not been exposed to the system and were not having their brains washed every day, they would be fine, honest and likable people. Sure, some might try to take advantage of others in some other way, but most would not. It's all in the training.
So I have a request:
Don't blame the lower-level IBOs for doing what they've been trained to do.
The deception under which they act is one of the most successful scams ever attempted. The perpetrators of the scam should be in jail, but they will probably die rich. And while most of them enjoy the good life, those IBOs who are desparately trying to get ahead in a system that tells them it will work eventually will lie and offend and break laws and rules because that's what they've been trained to do.
Perhaps some of us have forgotten what is was like to be involved. Perhaps some of us are trying to make a characterization of something they don't understand. I know what I did when I was involved, and I'm not proud of most of it. But I was TAUGHT that doing those things was acceptable and that there were good reasons for doing things that way.
Are you going to call ME less intelligent for acting the way I was taught to act while in the business? Are you going to accuse me of lacking in common sense? Are you going to accuse my wife (a doctor) and me of being incapable of communicating since, in someone's opinion, we probably should have been able to see through the scam by talking to each other about it?
In my opinion, we were deceiived by the best scammers in history. THEY are the ones to blame, not my wife and me.
If we never focus on the perpetrators, we'll never catch them. They may never be caught anyway, but let's not ensure that result by taking our eyes off the target.
PW
In my upline, the words "Buy 100PV and sell it" were used, but merely as a ploy to INCREASE the theoretical earnings at the lowest level. As far as business strategy, it was EXCLUSIVELY taught to "Buy from yourself" thus contradicting the very terms. The selling aspect was all but gone except a few times for about 1-2 minutes, they would say that we should sell some things to make it legal. That, however, happened at about 2-3 meetings I have attended out of several hundred. The promoted drive is to buy from yourself and recruit others to do the same.
Remember here that Q does not have any power, the kingpins of their organizations have all the power and Q is at their mercy. If Bill Britt so desired, he could take his whole team out and implant it into another MLM with about 50+% retention rate of transfers since all the people at the higher levels will follow the upline whereever they go. It has happened with Hal Newballs group; a rather large Platinum moved his whole organization out of BWW and into a phone card MLM. Britt could do the same thing.
"Remember here that Q does not have any power, the kingpins of their organizations have all the power and Q is at their mercy"
Who says they are even separate from one another?
Who owns Quixtar now?
Anyone know?
To the best of my knowledge, the co is OWNED by the DeVos & VanAndel families, but the governing board is EDC's and up, i.e. the kingpins,
So I might have to agree with you LD
I'm not sure if they're the owners as such, and they have signed up BSMAA as well. Of course, Almost all of Quixtar's revenue is driven by these few's downline. Blakey was right.
But they both signed up BSMAA and are tied to each other.
My name is Ryan and I just started in Quixtar and I think that you guys don't know what you are talking about. My upline told me about websites like this. They said that it was a breeding ground for cry babies and washed out IBO's that couldn't hack it.
Quixtar is the best business on the planet. I don't care what alll you people say about it. It makes me really mad that you would try to tear down other peoples dreams. Just because you wear pink underwear doesn't mean you have to go dumping your garbage on everybody else.
GO Diamond!
Ah, to be young again...and also a robot!
Ryan,
What are you doing here? If you don't like our garbage, then please stop playing in it. Shouldn't you be listening to a tape or asking your upline what to do.
Pink underwear? Is that like pink elephants?
Are you hallucinating as well?
Good God man, get another tape/cd in him stat!
"Pink underwear"... oh my goodness, what a great tapephrase... ROTFLMAO... is that a new one? They didn't have that one when I was in the biz.
Seriously, Ryan, you should reevaluate whether or not we "know what we're talking about." Many of us spent time in Amway/Quixtar and have a great deal of information you might want to consider. If you decide to build a Quixtar business anyway, well, go get 'em tiger. Go Diamond and all that. (You do know that only 1 in 13,000 IBOs are currently qualified Diamonds, right?) At least you'll know that "Quixtar is the best business on the planet" because you considered all of the information available. You're an Independent Business Owner, right? So be Independent. Do some research and some critical thinking and don't believe things just because your upline told you so.
Ryan Hicks, do you do retail / sales?
Ryan if your upline told you pigs could fly would you believe him? Before you become anymore incoherent and irrational save yourself from the brainwashing that has already begun. I'm sure your upline also told you that in the Quixtar rules you're supposed to sell 70% of your volume to retail customers right?
Also when you were shown this plan they made mention that the average IBO makes$1,400 a year or $2.69 and hour before taxes and expenses figuring you work at your business a minimum of 10 hrs per week. I'm sure they also mentioned less than 1% go platinum and like is stated above 1 in 13,000 or 0.000076% make it to diamond right? Did they also mention Emralds and above make around 70%-80% of their income off of those stupid CD's,Books tapes and functions you spend money on?
I mean you must know all about this and maybe this is why you think Quixtar is "the best business in the world"
To help Ryan, or anyone else interested in Quixtar, please read what the FTC has to say about MLM. I hope it would help change peoples minds about Quixtar.
One more thing. Thinking of poor, young, naive Ryan. It really amazes me how a lot of young men and women (but men especially) won't listen to their close friends and family but they'll do anything and believe anything their upline, someone they never met before the business, tells them.
Is it just me or is that fucked up? Pardon the language.
Ryan, read your rule book. You didn't sign up with quixtar. You started your own distributorship. Or IBO to make you think it is something better. According to the rules, you have no affiliation with quixtar. You sale their products and thats it. Everything else you buy, like tapes and cds and books comes from the system you signed up under. IE BWW
When I was in the business, I was taught to "fake it until you make it". In other words we were taught to lie or deceive people in order to sponsor. My upline also taught how you could hold off foreclosure on your mortgage so that people could free up income to attend functions. Upline taught us to skip a meal in order to buy a tape. My upline told me to dump my fiance' because she was holding up my business. My upline told me to avoid family and friends who weren't positive about amway. Does this sound like people anyone should take advice from?
Sweet, we have a new ambot to play with...
See, Ryan, we break ambots here. They get tired and confused and frustrated with the FACTS (as the facts don't point to a good outcome for you).
A couple of months ago it was Jennybot. Recently it has been (Poorhouse) Tonybot and Embot.
Heck, just last week we had an ambot flame-out after one week of facts and figures pushed into his face. Eaglebot hasn't shown his face since.
If you wanna stick around, I think its great.
It is a free country my man -- if you want to lose your shirt on a psued-pozi scheme -- go for it. Fire up young ambot!!!
Just be prepared for the other shoe to drop.
Ryan makes a creative statement (and dig) with the 'pink panties" comment, and immediately someone calls it tapespeak. Thats great! Had never even heard it!- but it must be tapespeak. Get used to that Ryan. If you ever make a good point, whether its been said be or not, they're easy way out is to call it tapespeak whether than refute it. They make claims about tool money they know nothing about.
So just because YOU made 80% of your income from tools when you were an Emerald doesn't mean-- what's that?... you were never an Emerald.... wel then How the HELL do YOU know what an Emerald makes on tools?? You keep talking about tool money, how bout we talk about my Diamond that made over $200,000 in just 2 months!! and we only show $150,000 a YEAR at Diamond! You all asked to see the proof, I showed it and no one said "no kidding, I didn't think you could make $124,000 in 1 month from just Qx, no tools - I can't believe it". You critics actually said "ah, yea, but whats his expenses?" as if ANYONE could have expenses of over $100,000 in 1 MONTH!! You people are dispicable!
Hey imran, thanks for posting that MI attorney general site. It said something I really like:
"It is understandable that consumers may have difficulty telling the difference between an illegal pyramid scheme and a Legitimate Multi-Level Marketing Opportunity. Multi-level marketing is a lawful and legitimate business method that uses a network of independent representatives to sell consumer products. Commissions should be based upon the sale of goods or services to end-user consumers who may include the sellers of the product.
Hahahaha!! HAAHAHAAAA!!! Oh God that hurts!! How salty do you all feel. I mean seriously - I don't know which part I love more, where it says "Multi-level marketing is a lawful and legitimate business method" or "end-user consumers who may include the sellers of the product."
Oh, thats good stuff! Oh thats the proverbial foot up the A$$.
You know what it really says: "Hey critbots -
THANKS FOR YOUR OPINIONS!!!"
I think I'll listen to the FTC, BBB, and Michiagan Attorney Generals Office.
Anything else: you said scam, not legal- I said BAM!
You said only big money comes from tools! I said BAM!
Lets hear some more talk about tapespeak and kool-aid, or better yet - I think we're do for another comment from df about being with someones mom, gf, or sister. I just can't believe that classy guy didn't go Diamond.
FTC found amway guilty on some accounts, e.g. income misrepresentations. Since then Amway is forced to reveal the embarissing number of $115 / month.
Also, FTC really want ppl to not join Quixtar
http://quixtarsucks.blogspot.com/2005/07/ftc-says-dont-join-quixtar.html
Tony I missed some thing. Did you quit Quixtar and joined passport?
Poorhouse Tony:
I was never stupid enough to get wrapped up in your little cult.
I am a "diamond" in the REAL world. You might have forgotten about the real world. That's where we deal in dollar and cents (not PV/BV/ bs) and profit and loss (whereas you are loss-only).
I drink Redbull and I wear pink boxers too.
You might not like it, but your girlfriend does.
I am glad you have new friend in Ryan-bot.
None of your other pals stuck around.
Hopefully some of them saw the light and dropped out of your pyramid.
Tony> So just because YOU made 80% of your income from tools when you were an Emerald doesn't mean-- what's that?... you were never an Emerald.... wel then How the HELL do YOU know what an Emerald makes on tools??
Joe: On the amquix info website, there's a copy of the WWDB tools payout obtained from a former emerald or diamond.
Haha - right as I post so does df, I knew he was coming - but df, where was the insult? Come on - what about Ryans sister and porn industry. Oh, I get it, you wanna play nice at 1st then stick it to him.
You know to answer the question way above. I think they're are more Heroes than Scoundrals. From my own personal experiences I have not encountered any bad apples. I've been to 5 different Opens in 4 different states! The IBOs I've met and deal with are good people!!
Ryan a couple critics here have some legitament gripes. But a LOT are just crybaby whiners looking to pass the buck and spread negative.
By the way, I've been here since April, and I never saw anyone named Jenny. You didn't break anything but wind asswipe! Eagle has probably decide to go work one of his 12 legs vs wase time with you idiots. You sure as HELL aren't gonna "break" me - if I ever stop posting here it'll be because I realize its just hurting me at work, and in my biz.
Everything you guys say, I have an answer for from tool $ to %'s to prices to legality! You guys ain't got SH!T!!
Ryan, just keep doing what you're doing, most of these guys still think you gotta pick up your products and cut checks to downline!
Could one IBO answer a question for me. If you own a business, where is your tax id #? Did you pay a lawyer to file your forms with the state in order for your business to be incorporated or an LLC? As a small business owner, these are the steps I went through. How can you claim to own a business without taking these steps?
I myself am in Q* and so far it has been a wonderful experience. I do have retail sales and members. Infact the majority of my monthly points is from customers. I do buy from myself, because I believe in promoting my own products. I teach other people how to do the same if they are interested. I don't push this on anyone. People will do what they want to do. For me, the products are wonderful, and the partner stores speak for themselves. Such as Bass Pro Shops, IBM, Circut City, Office Max just to name a few. I think their lawyers know more about the law than some of you. Not putting you down, but I'll continue to take my advise from people who are in life where I want to be, and who are willing to teach me how to get there.
Best of luck to all of you in your endevors. I know my future is bright and there are people helping me to get there.
I want to commend the people who stand behind their dreams and not trying to steal dreams from other people. Misery loves company, and you can have all that company you want. As for me and my team, we are GOING DIAMOND!!
Best of luck to you all...
LOL Tony you sound "Fired Up" LMAO! For someone who doesn't make a dime doing this you sure seem to defend it quite a bit.
My lord if we were all as passionate as you. You must be a winner dude. You make no money doing this, can't form your own independant thought and it seems to me you spend more time defending this "business" (Cough Cough) than actually building it.
Dude I can picture it. You're about 5'7 150lbs. Scrawny as hell. Got picked on in school, never had a girlfriend nor many friends for that matter and spent most of your weekends in your bedroom.
Enter Quixtar! A place where everyone treats you like you belong. Now you're out to proove everyone wrong. You want to proove you can be successful in an MLM pyrmaid scam. You want to throw it in everyone's faces that treated you so badly growing up.
The sad thing is (besides you) you'll never make the money you think you will and, alas, will never admit it simply because you're friggen ego won't allow it.
If that stupid "All businesses fail in the first 5 years" is what keeps you going so be it. What'll your excuse be 8 years from now when you haven't made jack shit, yet you've spent plenty of time, effort and money lining the pockets of the big pins that constantly feed you bullshit that you eat up with a spoon.
To me there's nothing more pathetic than an ass kisser. Too many IBO's, like yourself, kiss the asses of these people who you don't know from Adam because they have money and tell you, "You can have it too".
What do you call your business Tony? You've never answered that. I know you don't go up to people out of the blue and say "Hi I'm Tony. I have my own internet business and Quixtar is my supplier. Are you interested in MLM?" Instead you try to deceive people into believing maybe it's a legitimate business. Then once you've got them interested you try to do your best to avoid the Quixtar/Amway topic.
Like I said before majority rules pal. I'll believe every 1,000 people that say Quixtar/Amway is a crock compared to the one that defends it. Also 0.000076% go diamond, you have a great chance LMAO! Why don't you amuze me and go outside in the middle of a rainstorm with a lightning rod maybe you'll get struck. Your odds are better for that than going diamond LMAO.
Tony, I think the point is that even though some people may attain great welth through quixtar, the bottom line is that the vast majority do not and in fact a lot of them rack up debt in the business. Now you can say that they didn't work hard enough or put in enough effort. This may be true, but again the bottom line is that there are few millionaires and a lot of people who made no money or lost money.
It's pretty apparent that the 2-5 year business plan doesn't work the way it is advertised. I guess a good question would be how many people can even sponsor 6 people. The truth is that very few people are able to sponsor that many people.
I'm not saying that the business cannot work, but the fact is that it does not work for the vast majority who get involved. When I was in the business, I worked it hard and thought I was successful but the income didn't match what was shown in the plan. When I finally left the business, I put that extra effort into my job and I have been truly blessed since then.
BIG DOG -
I think that the appeal to today's youth is that this so-called opportunity is presented in terms that make it seem almost impossible to not work, and is very easy. The council provided by family members is typically more conservative and grounded in experience, so of course it doesn't have the "sex appeal" of what some shill in an expensive suit has to say.
The story is as old as time, just the names have changed...
Poorhouse Tony:
Her name was Jennifer7Lee. She actually posted threads on this blog as part of a series that QBlog put out.
She was a flake, just like the rest of you nutjobs. You all end up the same way.
Rusted gears, blown gaskets, zero balances in the bank, and too too much inventory of tapes/energy drink in the garage....like I said, you all end up the same way....
When you have a 1 in 14,000 chance of going 'Diamond' in your fake business world , the end result is fairly predictable here in the real world???
Now get along little pup. Southerndeb asked you boys an important questions. Or are you gonna duck that as well???
Tony -
Soooo, using your rationale, there are about 3-5 MILLION whiners (ex-IBOs) in North America. I guess they're all wrong except for you, Tony. No proof of profit, no finacials, just references to photocopied Quixtar checks.
Yup, we're all whiners. Everyone that thinks that a sub-one percent success rate (per AmQuix themselves) is a whiner...
You are, without a doubt, the most deluded person that ever posted here bar-none.
Please provide us a link to "what the FTC says about MLM". I'd like to read your sources for myself.
Of course, if it says anything other than something to the effect of "MLM is a fatally flawed business model designed only to enrich those who start one at the expense of everyone who joins and nobody in their right mind would join one" then their advice is of little value. But then, you can't expect politicians and bureaucrats to be very honest or forthright. They'll sugar-coat and weasel-word everything so people will read into it whatever they already believed anyway. Especially with the influence the DV's & VA's have bought.
I do have a tax id # actually. Just the same for any small business owner. It is my SSN#. I didn't register with the state, because of the way the reg. is done, it is automatic. But that is a very good question. And that is something that I myself am going to double check. But I stand firm in my belief in my business.
The sad thing is Tony, after many years of failing to make serious income in Quixtar but finding a way to blow money you don't have on those stupid tapes,CD's books,functions, yada, yada, yada, you'll be left with no house, no car, no friends,no life and most importantly NO MONEY! The real shot to your inflated ego will be when you're collecting a welfare check.
You know what that is right? You'll be collecting money from all of the hard working people (or Losers as they're termed in the Quixtar business) on this site and around the world because our government feels sorry for you. You should be thanking these people in advance instead of insulting them with your tapespeak drivel.
Waz> Best of luck to all of you in your endevors. I know my future is bright and there are people helping me to get there.
Me> Is it safe to assume that with this comment you are part of some tool group?
Thanks...
not at all. That is how I trully feel. This is not for anyone, and that doesn't make them better or worse than me. I hope everyone finds a way to acheive what the wish for most in this world.
Mark> Is it safe to assume that with this comment you are part of some tool group?
Me> Dude I bet the odds of that assumption being true are the reversed odds of one becoming a diamond.
Odds of becoming a diamond 0.000076%
Odds of that statement being tapespeak 99.999924% LOL
Hey Tony Tonytonytonytony
How ya doin' Tonytony?
You wanna respond to me in the "How was it for you" entry? How about in the "REader mail 52" entry? Come on Tonytony I wanna know what you think. Or do you just ignore the questions that put you against a wall? That's right Tony, just pull the wool over your own eyes...
Come on, Tony respond to my arguments. And how about we keep the insults to a minimum?
Waz>not at all. That is how I trully feel. This is not for anyone, and that doesn't make them better or worse than me. I hope everyone finds a way to acheive what the wish for most in this world.
Me> I'm a little slow...is that a yes you do belong to a tool group or no, your group does not use any tools?
Yes I use the tools, I read books and listen to the tapes. But they do not dictate what I say all the time. Maybe you should try listening to some before you start knocking what you may not understand. How can you describe a place you've never been?
http://www.ftc.gov/ftc/consumer.htm here is the ftc website. There are some very good articles on MLM's. One even talks about some rules of business opportunities that my upline never showed me. You can actually talk to 10 people who signed up with your upline, and see your uplines financial records. I was also informed at a meeting that young women are the new target because they seem to be able to talk to people.
Ya know one thing I don't get. According to Quixtar IBO's if people tell you Quixtar is a scam, right away you've failed in the business. Another thing I don't understand is, all these IBO's must think that Quixtar is the ONLY way to make a 6 figure income.
Many people all over the world make 6 figure incomes.
Then of course there's the one that goes "You can make a 6 figure income and never have to answer to a boss and you'll be free" Well if IBO's need to ask their upline about any financial move they may make and have to listen to what the upline says if they want to make money, what do you call him? Kinda sounds like a boss to me. As far as the job thing goes: How many hours do you spend listening to Cd's and tapes, reading books, driving, showing the plan and attending all seminars and functions? I'll guarantee it's more than the 10-15 hours a week they tell you you'll need to be successful. Sorry IBO's sounds like you have a J.O.B to me. Only thing is I know I'm getting paid every week, do you?
Tony, I think the point is that even though some people may attain great wealth through quixtar, the bottom line is that the vast majority do not and in fact a lot of them rack up debt in the business. Now you can say that they didn't work hard enough or put in enough effort. This may be true, but again the bottom line is that there are few millionaires and a lot of people who made no money or lost money.
It's pretty apparent that the 2-5 year business plan doesn't work the way it is advertised. I guess a good question would be how many people can even sponsor 6 people. The truth is that very few people are able to sponsor that many people.
I'm not saying that the business cannot work, but the fact is that it does not work for the vast majority who get involved. When I was in the business, I worked it hard and thought I was successful but the income didn't match what was shown in the plan. When I finally left the business, I put that extra effort into my job and I have been truly blessed since then.
www.ftc.gov/bizopps here is a better link
waz>Yes I use the tools, I read books and listen to the tapes. But they do not dictate what I say all the time. Maybe you should try listening to some before you start knocking what you may not understand. How can you describe a place you've never been?
me> well I'm not going into how much of a gross assumption this is, rather I'm looking for answers that no other IBO has answered before..are you prepared to (loud booming voice) go where no other IBO has gone before?
LOL...anyhow, do you tell your new er..prospect that the majority of all income claims are derived from the tool money?
If yes then proceed to question number two: do you provide some pie in the sky figure or do you have some documented proof?
If yes then proceed to question number three: can you share this with anyone ie. me ?
Thanks... and remember this is a blog, to try and judge who I am and what I have read and listened to from a few posts is a gross mistake..
another IBO> I was also informed at a meeting that young women are the new target because they seem to be able to talk to people.
Imran> That'll fire ppl up. Seriously, there will be much less complains now. To be bugged by a young women is better than some wierd accented guy (ha) bugging ppl.
OTH, young women are smarter than young men now a days. so good luck. u gonna need that.
Waz, your tax id # for your business is not your social security #. Here's how it works for real small business owners. You either go to lawyer (which I did) or file the paperwork yourself with your state government and the IRS. They assign YOUR BUSINESS a tax id#, not your personal social security #.
Waz, so you don't think it's for everybody? How are we going to define who it's for? By the 90% of people who don't have the talent or personality characteristics for "sales"? Because even if you're so deluded as to think you can have a "business" without selling STUFF to PEOPLE who aren't in it. Of course you say you have retail sales, how much and to whom? any repeat customers yet? You still have to SELL the "opportunity". Either way, you're selling, and if you don't have it, what you can LEARN is VERY limited.
How about the people that lose money at it? Should those people be in? That's something like 99+% of them. It's ALWAYS something like 99+%. the proportions don't change, since this is a mature scheme. should those people not be in it? Should they not have joined in the first place, since it's a losing proposition? should they quit now?
Now, since (contrary (?) to your operation) "buy from the corporation in your own name at inflated prices for a peasly rebate and sucker others into doing the same" is doctrine in most groups, and common practice, where is the money coming from? If the 99+% that are running a negative cashflow were to suddenly come to their senses and quit, where would that leave the infinitessimal few that are running at a profit?
I also hope for everyone to achieve what they hope for, but I consider it a mitzvah to tell people that quaxtar is no way to do it. It's statistically as good as a guarantee it won't give you what it promises, and in the highly unlikely event it does, you've had to become the kind of person that doesn't mind dooming others to the fate of the majority. Or had to sell a LOT of commodity products against a LOT of resistance (if you can sell that stuff at those prices with all the restrictions, you could probably do a LOT better for yourself almost ANYWYHERE else). In any case, you're better off without it than with it.
Southerndeb:
These ambots don't have real business tax ids-- they AREN'T real businesses.
Waz: Welcome to the fray. I hope you are wearing a cup, because Poorhouse Tony started with the low blows.....
...he started it, and I am ENDING it !!!
Poorhouse Tony, maybe you can help southerndeb out....or are you scared off??
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/alerts/lotionalrt.htm
this describes almost every aspect of Quixtar.
some IBOs actually register as business. Mostly because their day job requires it. All quixtar did was change the amway distributor to quitar's IBO. Everyone I have met so far are just young kids trying to get rich without having to work hard. Typical of the generation
Just as I thought, even if you read the FTC objectively, you might come away thinking there is such a thing as legitimate MLM, that products are relevant at all, or that there is any variation of compensation scheme that won't degenerate into a recruiting scam.
Deb, they can't have tax IDs because they're not real businesses and the owners aren't independent!
I've made a list to compare "Independent Business Owners" with Real Business Owners, i.e. entrepreneurs, based for the most part on my family's experience with our businesses (obviosuly not all my comparisons will apply to all small retail businesses). Everyone, feel free to add more!
IBOs: Supposed to sell product from one and only one supplier -- Quixtar -- at the prices that Qx dictates. Doesn't seem very "independent" if you ask me.
RBOs: Can pick from several suppliers of their product, negotiate prices with suppliers, switch suppliers, and use the suppliers which are most advantageous to the business.
IBOs: Cannot sell product for resale at another store. Cannot advertise product. Cannot display product logo. Cannot advertise business. And this is called free enterprise?
RBOs: Can advertise whereever they can afford to. Can sell products to virtually anyone who desires it.
IBOs: Cannot have an INDEPENDENT website set up by themselves. Can only have PASSWORD-PROTECTED website made by Qx, BWW, etc., where most of the website is dedicated to selling "the business" as opposed to the product. Doesn't the password impede online buyers from actually purchasing the product?
RBOs: Can have a website on any server they want. Can build their own website or hire a third party. Can sell product on the web without password impediments.
IBOs: Hang out in WalMarts and bookstores, preying on unsuspecting people. Search out people to peddle the plan or the product. Get rejected many times.
RBOs: The customers that desire the product come to the store! What a novel concept!
And this, my friends, is why IBOs are not independent, nor businesss owners, and certainly NOT entrepreneurs.
That's all I have for now. Feel free to add your own ideas!
Any "IBOs" care to rebut this? Nah, it's easier to ignore, right?
IBO> Ask upline if they can have kids
RBO> Have kids if you want to
IBO> Check upline if buying a new car is appropriate.
RBO> Buy a new car if you feel like it.
IBO> Check upline if you want to implement a great new business idea
RBO Implement a great new business idea
Thanks joecool and don for clearing things up. I just wish an IBO or maybe Tony, who has been strangely silent when real business comparisons are brought up against Qx, would telll me why they call themselves "business owners". I personally think that statement is a lie when comparing Qx to an actual samll business. What I am pretty much getting is that Qx is like Mary Kay or Avon or Cutco; So instead of saying "I am an Independant Business Owner" an IBO should take the honest approach and say, "I am a salesperson." Is that pretty much a correct assumption on my part?
I am an IBO, and only because my wife wanted to join to spend more time with her brother who joined first and then disappeared because of meetings. I said a few lines ago. All quixtar did was change amway distributors name to IBO, it sounds more appealing when reaching for financial freedom. I know better and try not to let her lose money. I do have to be supportive to a point.
Don Incognito,
I currently have my own tax ID#, I am a sole proprietor, NOT a corporation or an LLC.I also have an independently operated blog(look for Instantfranchise in the qblog favorites list). My personal website isn't geared toward getting people into the business, its geared toward getting clients. Yes it is password protected so that I know who accesses it and who doesn't.
I advertise my websites on my business card that says QUIXTAR at the top, and next to my name it says Quixtar powered-Independent Business Owner. It also has a shiny Quixtar logo on it.
I do have experience in small businesses, affiliate programs, marketing, direct mail, blogging, etc.
Quixtar has yet to tell me how to run my business- as a matter of fact,I have never been contacted by them personally to tell me how to run my downline.
I follow quixtar's own Compendium and the FTC final ruling from 1979 to dictate how my business is run honestly and ethically. First one to 7500PV wins!
I haven't been to a function since 2003, been off STO since 2002 and I STILL have a close working relationship with my upline diamond.
Oh and I NEVER wear pink boxers- those are for gay guys. Pink Ties are a Different story- Donald Trump wears one. Pink ties have a meaning, pink boxers are just plain queer.
A friendly correction: the proportion of currently qualified Diamonds to active IBOs is .0076% (about 1 in 13,000), not .000076% as I've seen stated above.
That seems picky, I know, but if we're going to accuse A/Q/AQMO of playing fast and loose with the facts, then we should be extra-careful about ours. Qx is bad enough as is -- no point is making it sound 100 times worse!
also,
I think young women are targeted for the business because of the artistry business.
Michael, I have to ask, it has been close to three years since you have joined. Where are you at in the business? Close to diamond yet? I am not being sarcastic, genuinely curious
You guys don't know what you are talking about. I just came back from Summer Conference and I saw soooo much proof that this business works.
I saw guys that make more $ taking a dump in the morning then must of you JOB'ers make in a year. One of you is stupid and it's not my upline!
My upline said that the whole function was a tax write off. So you know what that means. Duh? I get all the money for tapes, books and functions back on my tax return. The government pays for your education in this GREAT business! It doesn't work like that in college. So who is the stupid one now.
Have fun working your JOB's for the rest of your life!
Michael>I think young women are targeted for the business because of the artistry business.
Michael, if that's the only reason young women are being targeted, GOOD LUCK! As a young woman who has seen the Artistry line, I was UNimpressed. Why would I spend money on, let's be honest, low quality makeup products, when I can get top of the line products i.e. Clinique, Lancome, Elizabeth Arden, Prescriptives, Sephora. Artistry just doesn't match up; even Revlon is better quality. Also, young women being recruited for artistry sounds a lot like Mary Kay, instead of an independant business.
Ryan, before you go filing your income tax return you better double check your info. The only way something can be a write off is there is an honest attempt to earn profit. More than likely you didn't sell anything at the conference , you did not make an honest attempt. Remember in this business retailing is how you make profit, not recruiting new members. Your conference was not a write off, neither are the BSM's.
Conferences are generally all the people telling you how much money they make because they believe. It is also an opportunity to make yet another cd to sale to you.
HA HA HA Ryan, you fool!
It's not free money. You have to create a profit eventually to be able to justify your out of pocket function after function.
It's not free money, you have to lay it out first, then you get a PERCENTAGE back.
Hope you don't get audited.
Actually, I kinda do ;0)
Michael> I currently have my own tax ID#, I am a sole proprietor, NOT a corporation or an LLC.
DI> OK, this would probably answer deb's questions. No argument here from me.
Michael> I also have an independently operated blog(look for Instantfranchise in the qblog favorites list).
DI> I checked out your blog. I never said that Qx prevents people from having blogs; I said that it doesn't allow people to *advertise their business or products* on non-Qx/LOS websites. And, lo and behold, your blog has a neat little disclaimer that states, among other things, "This blog is not in anyway, shape or form, profiting from IBO's, nor is it a blog used for recruiting IBO's. It is also not a blog to showcase or sell quixtar products or services." I think that proves my original point.
Michael> My personal website isn't geared toward getting people into the business, its geared toward getting clients.
D> I'll take your word for it. Why? Because I can't SEE your website, because it's password protected! However, I went to the website of the IBO who tried to recruit me, and the site, (provided thru BWW) has more sections devoted to recruiting than it does to retailing. And it's so full of "cool" "energetic" and vague buzzwords that it makes me want to vomit. (I can post examples if anyone wants :P )
Michael> Yes it is password protected so that I know who accesses it and who doesn't.
D> I'm sorry, but from a retail business standpoint that is complete BS. Why? Because you're not letting curious people see what product you offer! Therefore, a random person browsing the web can't buy product from your site even if he is interested in XS or whatever it is that you sell. Consequently, it means that the only people who can access your site are those whom you've spoken to personally, which is an INCREDIBLY INEFFICIENT method of retail and makes sense only if you're trying to recruit downline.
"Knowing who visits your site" is a bad excuse for this. Why? First, because you can track IPs, providers, locations, and other pertinent information using available free software. Second, "knowing who visits your site" is irrelevant--it's important to know who BUYS form your site, which is why all normal retail websites allow people to create their own accounts when they want to purchase -- AFTER they've seen the merchandise.
M> I advertise my websites on my business card that says QUIXTAR at the top
DI> Sorry, but that is not *advertising* per se. You need to be present to give that card out, don't you? But you can't do real advertising, such as buying an ad in a magazine or newspaper. Sorry, but my original point still stands.
M> Quixtar has yet to tell me how to run my business...I have never been contacted by them personally to tell me how to run my downline...I haven't been to a function since 2003...I STILL have a close working relationship with my upline diamond.
DI> To be fair, I never talked about the tools or pyramid aspects of the business. I only talked about RETAIL, which is the only part that concerns me. And all of my points regarding retail still stand.
Ryan said:"Have fun working your JOB's for the rest of your life!"
Don't worry, I will. What I'm doing now is a great deal more fun than sitting in a stadium for 15 hours a day for a whole weekend, in the middle of summer; listening to the same stuff I've heard over and over the 11 years I was in the business.
Your contention that the people critical of Quixtar don't know what they are talking about is misinformed. Many of us have been in many years and quit when we discovered the lies about how much profit is made from the tool systems. Don't take my word for it, check out documentation on www.amquix.info.
All of you haters can eat a barrel. Gays
A question i leave for all to ponder.
Why is it wrong for the people that have been in the business for 10-20 years to be making the most money??!?!
No one said you cannot create a multi-million dollar team of your own and be the kingpin 10 years down the road.
Like Ryan said, Have fun with your 9-5! I know i won't . :P
I hope instantfrachise isn't refering to an IBO through quixtar. That would be a misrepresentation of an IBO and against the rules. 7.1.4 I believe or it is really close to that one
Paul, are you the diamond from Tony's upline. I am surprised by your post; Tony gave the impression that you had some class. Did you actually call the antiquixtar people on this blog gays. What does sexual preference have to do with people's opinion of quixtar. You know I have been around little men like you before, y'all are quite common in the quixtar circles. Oh, Paul, lets stick with the discussion of quixtar recruiting tactics; or does that make you paranoid to the point of bringing out your homophobic tendencies.
MMM, Barrels... I marinate mine in beer, then barbecue them on the grill. Wait, that's chicken. Are you really a diamond, or still in the "name it and claim it" or "fake it til you make it" mode? I don't think anybody IS sayong you CAN'T create a large enough group of people losing money to become wealthy yourself, just that even if you do you're necessarily a bad person for having done so. Good luck, knob.
Hey Ryan, IF something qualifies as a "writeoff" (say deduction) all you get is your marginal rate back. For example, if you waste $200 on a function to hear the same thing you've heard x times before (and which you'll buy on cd again next month), say you're in the 28% bracket, and IF it qualifies as a deduction, next year your tax liability will be reduced by $56. You've still forked out $144 you're NOT GETTING BACK. It's not free, dude.
Hey guys, how's liths for ethical behaviour|?
Looks like Alticor has been vandalizing Wikipedia yet again, deleting critical information. Check out changes by 167.23.0.90 to both the Amway and Quixtar pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Quixtar&action=history
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amway&action=history
The IP 167.23.0.90 traces back to Alticor, Inc:
http://ws.arin.net/cgi-bin/whois.pl?queryinput=167.23.0.90
Don> Consequently, it means that the only people who can access your site are those whom you've spoken to personally.
Like i said before Don thats the point - its not meant to be "pay big bucks for ads so any will come to your site, its meant to be word-of-mouth, person-to-person. That lets the "average joe" from any walk of life have a chance at having their own business. If a guy with big bucks can just put ads on TV, it hinders the small guys chance to build a business. Its a level playing field. You can do some local advertising, but their are guidlelines to it.
But having to have a password keeps it person to person, and protects smaller IBOs from one with big bucks buying up TV spots. Do the work, create the volume, get the reward. Not spend $100,000 and have people just come to your site. If thats the way Devos and Van Andel had envisioned it, they'd have just done it themselves!!
Sorry this had alot of posts had to skim some. Deb, don't wanna miss you, I say I'm a Business Owner cause thats what I am, I own a business. I have a website, you could go to and buy stuff, and I make $$. I could sell to you in person, too, and I make $$. You wanna buy some XS, or protein bars, a cell phone, a TV? I can hook you up. You own a traditional business and want to reward your employees for increased sales, good atendance, etc. I can get you some Gift & Incentive Albums. And I make $$ on it, cause I own a business. I know a guy named Tom, he owns a business too, and makes huge $$ at it. He owns a Penn Station, a few actually. He's not a salesmen for Penn Station, he's the Owner of his locations. I'm the owner of MY business, and I can help someone get started, kinda like a franchise. Make sense?
And BTW, I disagree with your opinion of Artistry, I think its pretty good since its ranked in the top 5 of prestige make-ups with some the ones you mentioned! And don't forget, Qx is the #1 Beauty site on the web!
Quick note, Ryan the tools are reimbursed on taxes. Lets say you made $100 bucks each month, but spent $40 on CDs books, etc. - you could write-off the tools as an expense which just means you wouldn't pay taxes on that amount. Let's say you made $2000 your first year, but had $1000 worth of expenses (CDs books, seminars, etc0 then you wouldn't have to pay tax on the $2000, just on $1000. And for the 1st 3 years, if you actually had a loss, you could have that amount deducted from your regular taxable income. But not after the 3rd year, you could only claim $0 profit, not a loss.
But YES, the CDs, books, conferences, etc are ALL tax deductable, don't let these idiots scare you. Anything used for you business. Just because you aren't selling stuff at a conference doesn't mean you can't write it off. You're there for education. Its a trainining, therefore a write-off.
See what I mean Ryan, with the whole tapespeak no free thought. Hate to tell ya all, but I'm the same person I was before the business with all the same friends, even some new ones.
Oh yea, not sure if it was on this post, but I was actually pretty well liked growing up, got along with many different groups in HS, and College, was involved in a lot of different stuff. 5'7' 150lb wimp? No, acutally I'm just shy of 6'0". About 212lbs, but thats coming down, I'd like to be back under 200, but I'm pretty well built. If you remember I did wrestle in college and teach Tae Kwon Do - so I'm in pretty good shape. Not the fragile little wimp someone made me out to be. And actually i'm pretty laid back, but ignorant ,negative, narowminded jerks s kind of a pet peeve. So sorry if I lay into some people on here :)
I'd like to make this point with Ryan, Tony, and a few other pro-quixtar folks.
First of all, no one is saying that there aren't a few people who made it big in amway/quixtar. It's evident that some people do make it big. However, the bottom line is that most people who get involved end up with less money than they started with. There are too many people who don't make money to justify the few who do.
Yes some people quit, some are lazy, but some work the business hard and don't see results either.
My point is that the system is inherently flawed. Whether it's 6-4-2 or whatever model is used, it's an ineffective system or there would be far more people succeeding.
Comparing it to a company with a CEO doesn't fly because in a company, the CEO makes the most bucks, but all the employees receive a paycheck, they are making money. They end up with more than they started with.
You can't compare the system to college either because in college, you are learning tangible subjects such as math, whereas in quixtar you are being motivated. Big difference. Also, when you graduate from college, you stop paying tuition. In quixtar you pay tuition for the rest of your time in the business.
You can't compare the quixtar business with medical and dental seminars either because those seminars are for specific purposes such as updating the professionals in the latest techniques and equipment, and they don't hold one of these seminars every month. More likely it's once per year.
And please don't compare this with Tony Robbins, because Tony Robbins is in the motivation business. Quixtar is supposed to be about moving products isn't it??
Your turn Ryan and Tony...
another IBO,
Could you please explain that one again? I am not understanding your comment "isn't refering to an IBO through quixtar"
I am not using my blog to recruit IBO's.
Also rule 7.1.4 applies to BSM's
Rule 7.2.3. IBOs may produce BSM dealing with general subjects of a "how-to" nature, including "how to sell products," "how to conduct training meetings," "how to manage inventory," "how to motivate people," and "motivational success stories," etc. However, BSM dealing with "how to show the IBO Plan" must be expressly authorized by the Corporation. In addition to the requirements set forth in 7.2.5 below, such BSM shall bear the legend "For Existing IBOs Only."
See I DO read and follow the rules of the compendium "another IBO"...
T> Like i said before Don thats the point - its not meant to be "pay big bucks for ads so any will come to your site, its meant to be word-of-mouth, person-to-person.
DI> Tony, I will give you that if it is a "person-to-person" business, then advertising is not that necessary. See, Tony, I'm not plain negative, I just use logic.
HOWEVER, Quixtar should then be promoted as a PERSON-TO-PERSON business. It should NOT be promoted as "e-commerce," or "wholesaling" because it is neither of those things. It's a "Direct Marketing" business. Unfortunately, MOST IBOs tend to be dishonest during their recruiting speeches in this aspect.
T> That lets the "average joe" from any walk of life have a chance at having their own business.
DI> Whether the "average joe" with no business sense should be having a business is a matter left for the reader to decide.
T> If a guy with big bucks can just put ads on TV, it hinders the small guys chance to build a business. Its a level playing field.
DI> Funny how in the real world, small businessess survive whether they're owned by rich people or poor people. They all seem to be able to compete via free enterprise, without communist "level playing fields." Just an observation.
Like I said, Tony, I'll grant you that for a person-to-person affair, advertising is not so important. HOWEVER, the rule about not selling to grocery stores or not displaying the logo is like placing sticks in an entrepreneur's wheels. PLease see the "Reader Mail 52" entry; I've provided two lengthy arguments as to why that is so bad.
T> You can do some local advertising, but their are guidlelines to it.
DI> I'm curious about the guidelines. Would you mind telling me what they are?
tony>I'm a Business Owner cause thats what I am, I own a business. I have a website, you could go to and buy stuff, and I make $$. I could sell to you in person, too, and I make $$. You wanna buy some XS, or protein bars, a cell phone, a TV? I can hook you up.
Tony, you are a sales man. That statement above just emphasizes it a little more. I am pretty sure that your friend who owns Penn Stations can advertise his stations, even on billboards if he wants to. Can you do that? Didn't think so; because you do not own anything. Actually, it's the other way around; Qx owns you.
Michael, any rebuttals to my response to you above? I still think that my points about why Qx is not a legitimate RETAIL business still stand.
Michael, I apologize for the wrong rule number, maybe it is in section four, but if you read the rules, it says you can't tell anyone this is a franchise. I guess by saying it is like a franchise is sort of misrepresnting it to people. You still didn't answer my question about being in business for at least three years. How close are you to becoming a diamond?
another IBO,
Actually I have been in the business since 1999, not 3 years ago as you presume. I am trying to re qualify for platinum direct. I am nowhere close to becoming a "diamond" nor do I want to become a diamond. I just want to lead a happy and profitable life with this business and teach others to do the same. I am happy with whatever I achieve in this business because I know that I created it. Not my upline, not my critics- I did. Regardless of the politics, it DOES take effort.
southerndeb. I really can't rebuttal your response about the makeup quality- since I am NOT a makeup kind of guy. I have yet to retail or wholesale any artistry products. Also about your comment that this is like Mary kay, Avon, etc. Yes it is alot like them. However it is not direct selling, its Multi level marketing. Big difference in terminology. Direct selling would be just like the techniques mary kay and avon uses- going door to door, having makeup sessions, etc. We do offer Artistry clinics, but how many guys have you seen give a facial??
Don, if quixtar isn't a legitimate retail business, how come any retail client can go directly to quixtar and order products without a supporting IBO?
First off, ofr southerndeb, most IBO's are independant contractors. They work for themselves and fill out a Schedule C (if they live in the USA). Technically, it makes them a business, and no, they did not have to incorporate, become a LLC or a S-Corp. It also makes their SS number their tax-ID number. It is perfectly legit to do so. There are some advantages/disadvantages to incorporating verus filing a Schedule C, and the overwhelming majority of IBO's would lose out if they incorporated or became LLC's, which is why they do not. I'm no accountant, but I suggest you contact your accountant and he will be better to answer your questions.
Second, to Ryan, PLEASE TALK TO AN ACCOUNTANT NOW! You cannot, I repeat CANNOT get a refund for all of you business expenditures. The US government is not in the business of helping you stay in business. Bystander has it right, and again, an accountant would help you see just what tax advantages you have. I will also warn you that the IRS generally gives any business, be it a LLC, S-Corp, or a Schedule C about 3 years to become profitable. After that, the IRS can and may dissallow deductions and make your business into a "hobby business." Simply put, the IRS isn't in business to keep failing businesses afloat. According to the IRS, a business exists to make a profit, and is not a vehicle for write-offs. I suggest you search the IRS.gov web-site for "hobby business" and read about some AmQuix IBO's who kept filing their losses for years only to have their business declared a hobby. They had to pay big bucks in back taxes and interest.
As for the business, it does work for a very select few. But in order to work for this tiny minority, the rest are suffering either not making any money, or losing money. Millions of people were IBO's and have quit over the last 35 years while the number of active North American IBO's remain about the same. Doesn't this tell you something? The business is at best stagnant, and possibly starting to lose ground. That means, if you become the one to succeed, chances are, it was at the expense of someone who was at the top, but is now falling. The list of former emeralds and diamonds is out there.
Last but not least, this business of positive and negative is one that always confused me. When I was asked the question about whom I would talk to about succeeding, the successful person or the failure, I responded, "Both." The poor IBO looked very confused, and I explained that I would talk to the success to see what he did to succeed to try and emulate that, but also talk to the failure to see what he did so I know what pitfalls to avoid. Failure is often the best teacher, and I would hope new IBO's would not discount information from former IBO's just because it is negative.
also,
another IBO, we have been approved by quixtar and the FTC that we can call it a Private Franchise and use the Private Franchise review in showing the plan. Also sa4400 MUST be given to the prospect when showing the plan..
Michael, thank you for your honest response. I am not trying to pick a fight, but is sounds like you have put more than 3-12 hours a week into the business. I know platinums start making money of BSM's. Are you going to try to earn your money through the sale of BSM's? I could only presume three years because the oldest date you mentioned was 2002
I have not seen anything saying it was approved to call it a franchise, the most recent rule book my upline gave me still said it was against the rules
another IBO,
Not a problem, I like to help where I can. 2002 is when I stopped STO. No, I am not going to be profiting from BSM's. I created my blog specifically to help train my IBO's. If I do receive any sort of "royalties" from BSM's, it will be dispursed among my IBO's. I have told people this in here before that I am offering new IBO's the tools they need provided they do the work that is required.
That is very responsible of you. Being an IBO only because of my wife. I usually have to sit through meetings and sometimes someone showing the plan. Everytime I feel it is an afront to the persons common sense after researching MLM and actually reading the rules. Rules I had to point out to my upline. I believe people can make money, but so far the ones I have seen are pretty shaky on following the rules.
There's Mikebot....where ya been pal ???
Oh that's right, you've been off hawking your overstocked NASCAR wares.
How's that going?
You can call your self a private franchise, you can call it an independent business, you can call it 'Bob' for all I care....
...it's nothing but a sham to anyone with at least 1/2 a brain.
Stay in school pal, I hope you learn something.......
dmm,
thank you for your respectful and intelligent commentary.
df,
I graduated from school awhile ago "pal"..
Actually the nascar biz is going great, I've got my blog set up and I am also compiling inventory articles for 150+ ebay sales. All while I work at my full time job and do quixtar on the side...
This week's featured Quixtar diamonds are:
Chuck and Colleen Goetschel
Chuck's dad was a Quixtar ibo and sponsored Chuck into the business. Chuck is a competitive triathlete and swimmer, focused and driven. They live in California. They're great people, outgoing and positive. Chuck and Colleen really do set a good example for the people in their business.
Yes, Colleen's music is quite interesting I hear.
What was the comparison? Oh yeah, sounds like someone is strangling a cat.
Chuck and Colleen set a good example for the people in the business by promoting the snot out of her horrible singing, and getting IBO's to buy her crappy sing alongs.
Who was her producer? Oh, yeah. Her and her husband paid for the production of that sad display of singing by themselves.
Yes, they are a good example of this business.
A pair of wannabes
Later Big M. Your heros are actually pathetic little monkeys.
Tony>And don't forget, Qx is the #1 Beauty site on the web!
This is a fact according to Quixtar, right. What other beauty sites are on the web? What exactly does this claim mean--that it does the most business as a beauty sitethan anyother brand of cosmetic? I would assume that it does because no other brand of cosmetics is purchased primarily on line other than Artistry.
I'm not trying to be accusative, I'm just trying to understand the importance of this claim.
I thought you wanted a Q diamond rocket. Glad to see it now upsets you so much.
So Chuck and Colleen Goetschel got in after 1999 and went diamond? They weren't transferred from some other leg, weren't in before and then joined back up, didn't get in pre 1999 and "made the decision..etc"?
Uh Mikebot, a degree in IT doesn't make you a business guru. Though it would make you useful in all of those online Dungeons and Dragons tournaments you like to play in.......
.......dork!!!!
Go sell some more worthless merchandise, flimflam man........
Embot:
You are asking a bunch of questions. Why don't you try answering this one, from like, a week ago........
"You never said how you made those big real estate returns and how they were linked to the big Q."
Ante up Embot....did you think I forgot????
emminemm,
you are liar, unless you can prove that you were lied to as well.
I just found this out and have lost any respect for you or your sources.
http://www.amquix.info/lawsuits/spanos.pdf
page 16, item 43
This proves that they were in before 1999.
You lied!!!
Oh come on now DanD.
Haven't we seen this before, someone quotes a figure "obtained from Quixtar," marries it with a figure found somewhere else from Quixtar and "ta-da" we have TRUTH. Isn't that right lawDaug?
Well now, let's see what Quixtar itself has to say:
"...Chuck's father was building a BUSINESS POWERED BY QUIXTAR, and he urged Chuck to become an IBO...." (emphasis mine)
(Achieve, May-June 05, p. 14, second paragraph). So it looks like some pretty crafty time travel going on or maybe he signed up...again!
By the way, I never lied.....read very carefully what I originally wrote.
Em,
Did you even go to the link DanD posted?
Haven't you ever noticed the revised history of long-time Diamonds featured in the Achieve Magazine? Having been in Amway myself, I sure have.
Usually they are a little more careful about their terminology and the subtleties they use. They would usually tend to say something along the lines of, "they became Independent Business Owners," or saw the "Independent Business Ownership plan," or "venture into Independent Busines Ownership."
M&M,
Scott Larsen has a list of pin winners going back to 1979. I see the Goetchels (Chuck and Colleen) as New Diamonds in June of 1998. Also, Chuck and Betty Goetschel were new Emeralds in the same month. Are you sure they are Quixtar only Diamonds?
http://www.amquix.info/amway_pins.html
Michael> Don, if quixtar isn't a legitimate retail business, how come any retail client can go directly to quixtar and order products without a supporting IBO?
DI> Michael! Really, now I thought more of you before you said this. Now let me ask you, did you really misunderstand me, or are you pretending to misundertand me uin order to avoid the hard questions?
Michael, it is OBVIOUS from all my posts that I when I am referring to "retail businesses," am not talking about Quixtar, Inc but rather the IBOs' INDIVIDUAL BUSINESSES. You know, those Worldwide International Enterprises, or whatever other retarded names you give them.
To repeat: Your "independent businesses" are NOT LEGITIMATE RETAIL BUSINESSES. I have provided countless examples above (and on the "Reader Mail 52 page" with my P+Q+X) model on why this is so.
So Michael, why don't you try to rebut my real points instead of going for this cheap-ass straw-man shit that everyone can see through?
"Haven't we seen this before, someone quotes a figure "obtained from Quixtar," marries it with a figure found somewhere else from Quixtar and "ta-da" we have TRUTH."
Depends on the sources, Em. In the case of Quixtar/Amway's complete lack of growth, the sources are Quixtar itself and the United States Federal Trade Commission.
It's only because you don't understand the concept of a "percentage" that you don't see what those FTC and Quixtar numbers mean.
But that's not my fault. I explained it to you dozens of times.
Embot:
Your Diamond list is a decpetive piece of garbage. Drop it, you aren't fooling anyone.
Why don't you try answering this, from like, a week ago........
"You never said how you made those big real estate returns and how they were linked to the big Q."
Ante up Embot....did you think I forgot????
Yes Embot. That was pretty sad. I thought you were going to give us diamonds that became diamonds in Quixtar only.
I got beaten to the punch by another critic, but the first thing I remembered about old Colleen G was that little tale about her terrible singing, AND that they couldn't find an insane enough person to be her producer, so they produced it themselves.
If the dream is big enough, the facts don't count. As long as you have a bunch of brainwashed fools to buy your crappy McCrap CD's.
Typical Amway story. Shuckin' and jivin' their way around reality.
You've once again, proven nothing. Well done M&M. WINNER!
Gordon > A friendly correction: the proportion of currently qualified Diamonds to active IBOs is .0076% (about 1 in 13,000), not .000076% as I've seen stated above.
Me> You're right I forgot to move the decimal over 2 spots to the right for the percentage lol. I'm looking at 1/13,000 whici is 0.000076 but forgot tomultiply by 100 which would make it .0076% Thanks for pointing that out to me it was my mistake.
None the less the odds are tremendously against the "average" person succeeding in this "busniess".
Yeah what an a$$hole. This whole trick is to make money from adsense? Such crap weasels ruin it for every one.
I have a tip for Dan holing: It's web. you can't hide your shady tactics. It's not u r developing BWW sites. It will notice and it will ruin ur reputation. You had blog entry in my blog, and now you have here. Your prospective clients will pull it as a reference every time.
How do u like that?
sorry comment at wrong post.....damn u tony
that's right lawdaug, are you going to believe everything Q says?
Remember, I never said they were Q-only diamonds!
Interesting how you folks always misinterpret information as you draw your conclusions!
Embot:
Your Diamond list is a decpetive piece of garbage. Drop it, you aren't fooling anyone.
Why don't you try answering this, from like, a week ago........
"You never said how you made those big real estate returns and how they were linked to the big Q."
Ante up Embot....did you think I forgot????
em>Remember, I never said they were Q-only diamonds!
TD>So what was the point of your posting, then? A lesson in semantics? Seemed like the emphasis was on that they were Quixtar Diamonds (meaning Q only, you know, the ones we are wanting to hear about).
Embot:
Yes, it was part of the original challenge.
The fact that you are hiding the facts leads us to believe that you are lying.
The fact that you won't put a general description of your real estate investment out here is a sign that you are lying.
Your lies and half-truths are starting to catch up with you. Go ahead, put an end to it, by putting the FACTS on the table!
Embot: "that's right lawdaug, are you going to believe everything Q says?"
Well, em. . . let's see . . . when Quixtar is REQUIRED BY LAW to provide it under a direct order from the Federal Trade Commission, I think it's safe to trust that kind of Quixtar information.
Do you know what happened to AmQuix last time it violated that FTC order?
Do you, Em?
Quixtar promoters and apologist -
Please review the following document, an Executive Diamond Income Statement filed in Placer County, California Superior Court:
http://www.amquix.info/amway_edc.html
Note the gross revenue and the breakdown of "Amway" and "system" income.
My challenge to you:
1) Provide some form of evidence that the income division isn't typical
2) Provide evidence to explain why, in light of the paltry $300K pre-tax income, we should believe that there are (for example) Emeralds making $250K.
3) There are, according to Quixtar, a mere handfull of Execs in North America after over fourty years of operation. Why so few?
Anyone thinking about this so-called "opportunity" is advised to read the responses (and non-responses) carefully. Legitimate business opportunities would (and are compelled by law) to respond in a forthright and usefull manner. Think about what it means when someone answers you with vague generalities instead of honest information.
Rocket, DF, Imran, Big Dog,
Or what ever else you losers want to call yourselves. Just admit that you didn't have the 'balls ' to build this business.
I going to be retiring in the next 6 mths making $5000 a mth. So eat that crybabies!
don,
Nice attitude don. The swearing, nice classy touch there.
it is a legitimate business proven by the FTC in 1979.
It is a retail and wholesale business. I do have clients that are non IBO's paying retail costs. I also have IBO's that purchase wholesale from me.
How do you want me to answer don? It's obvious that you want me to agree with you and say yes this is a not legitimate retail business...
Your whole complaint is because that its a password protected website that it isn't a legitimate retail business. Its not designed that way. However it is a legitimate business proven by the FTC in 1979.
I've been here long enough don, you don't think I haven't cought on to your baited questions yet?
Michael: "it is a legitimate business proven by the FTC in 1979."
Please provide a source from an FTC document for this claim.
Thanks.
Ryan>I going to be retiring in the next 6 mths making $5000 a mth. So eat that crybabies!
SD>That's funny you would say that. My brother (an IBO like yourself) told people the exact same thing...six years ago. Don't say things like that unless you want people to laugh at you. Ryan, I hope still have some of your pre-quixtar brain left; you will not be retiring in six months. In six months, you'll be stalking people in the self-help section of Barnes&Noble.
df, NO it wasn't part of the original challenge. I told you mine was better and it was. If you want proof please contact me. And I am not wasting space here because no one else cares.
TD: the purpose was to show you can't believe everything you read or obtain, even from Q. And people often draw erroneous conclusions, even from MY own statements, without reading carefully! And yes, non-legal information from Q was used on these posts and other sites to derive erroneous conclusions before. You obviously know that lawdaug.
Embot: "non-legal information from Q was used on these posts and other sites to derive erroneous conclusions before"
Other than yours, I don't know of any.
My sources were the corporation itself, under an order from the FTC, and the FTC itself.
Don't know WHAT you are talking about Embot.
Em,
Ah, so it was an exercise in semantics.
M> How do you want me to answer don? It's obvious that you want me to agree with you and say yes this is a not legitimate retail business...
DI> Well, Michael, you can rebut my claims one by one as I have yours. But all you seem to be able to do is say "it is a legitimate business proven by the FTC in 1979" like a broken record. But even here you are wrong! All the FTC said was that the *MLM aspect* of the business was *not illegal*! As far as the retail part of the business, the FTC has DENIED that it has "approved" or endorsed the business opportunity! (http://www.amquix.info/amway_ftc.html)
Furthermore, I still maintain that as a RETAIL business, a Quixtar IBO-ship is illegitimate and unsustainable because:
An IBO cannot advertise; real businesses can.
An IBO cannot sell to third parties for resale (i.e. grocery stores); real businesses can.
An IBO cannot sell products that compete with Qx's; real businesses can.
Random online buyers cannot access the IBOs website; this is not true of a real business's website.
See this link for other reasons why: http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2110
What I want you (or any other pro-Qx IBO) to do, Michael, is to attempt to PROVE ME WRONG. This is called "having a debate." So far, I have proved my point with factual evidence. You have failed to do so. The ball's in your court.
Ryan> "I going to be retiring in the next 6 mths making $5000 a mth. So eat that crybabies!"
LMMFAO HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Holy shit I almost laughed myself into a coronary conditon. You won't be making $5000 a year probably through your whole career in Qx. Maybe you'll be able to retire to the unemployment office where the government and the hard working people that have RESPECTIBLE jobs will pay you. You ought to thank everyhard working person in this blog since someday soon they'll be paying your salary.
Thanks for the laugh that was great!
Embot>NO it wasn't part of the original challenge. I told you mine was better and it was. If you want proof please contact me. And I am not wasting space here because no one else cares.
I am sure we are all interested.
Afterall, your shoddy discussions over semantics lends itself into this topic quite well. In layman's terms, you are full of bulldung and we all know it.
You can't prove it? Fine. You're a liar and a cheat and your unsubstantiated claim will go into the garbage heap with the other
-bots' comments. You're not fooling nor impressing anyone here.
Lawdawg has put out actual data & I have to (regarding the performance of the S&P500).
You're the only one who hasn't Embot. More and more is being found out about you with each fake claim....
Wow, with Ryan-bot here in the fray, the lying and false claims are skyrocketing.
Ryan, run along and make your money.
Make sure you check back in 6 months.
only PR info, etc. you pull, lawdaug, or are you getting alzheimers?
Along with all the other so-called facts/figures which getted quoted by others all too often.....
Em>NO it wasn't part of the original challenge. I told you mine was better and it was. If you want proof please contact me. And I am not wasting space here because no one else cares.
Em - everyone here does care. I have to agree with df; we are all interested. I wish you would re-read your old posts. surely you can see that you are burying yourself in bs, and the beauty of that is that we don't have argue with you; you contradict yourself quite well. The only thing you don't do well (like most IBO's) is answer questions that are asked to you. Tapespeak, vague references, and insulting the questioner do not count as answers.
Tony Bot, Ryan Bot, Em Bot LOL.
If this business is so great and everyone is so successful why would you give a rat's patoot of what everyone here thinks?
Maybe it's because you KNOW deep down inside we're right and you're inflated ego's won't let you admit you're wrong and unsuccessful in a business plan in which over 99% fail.
Therefore keep fighting your fight. Keep trying to convince yourself "I'm going diamond". Keep telling yourself you made a smart decision getting involved with such a great "business" opportunity and will be able to retire someday.
You people spend more time defending your "business" than building it. What's wrong with that picture? Maybe if you can find the answer to that question (and I don't mean some tapespeak junk about how every person with a J.O.B is negative) you'll figure out how much better off you are without this scam called Quixtar.
You guys don't know what you are talking about.
While all you broke losers are going to work I will be sleeping in. I will make sure that I hire you to clean my toliets. And don't worry I will make sure that you get good benefits .
There is no excuse for cowards. You are guys make me want to throw up.
I was originally asked what sort of investment I had that could do better than 8-12% return every year. And I answered it. What is so hard for you to understand?
Reread the original challenge, please.
While you are at it, please point out some tapespeak on my part.
Oh and I see, Deb, I have NEVER been the subject of insults.
Hi Ryan,
How long have you been in? Who is your upline Diamond? I'm not baiting you; I'm truly interested.
It would be nice, though, if you could keep your "broke loser" comments to a minimum. You will truly reap what you sow here. Just a suggestion. :)
Hey Td,
What's wrong does the truth hurt?
I have the nest upline on the planet. I am part of the rocken Greg Duncan team!
When I am on Peter Island DF I will make sure that you get a post card from me! ;)
Ryan, Just stop right now before you make an ass of yourself; well, maybe it is too late for that. I don't think any of us non-Qxers on this site are broke. Tell me, oh wise Ryan, how do you plan on making soo much money; all you've done so far is call everyone else broke losers or cry babies. What exactly are you going to do get that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? I've seen rookies like you, who get a hard-on at the catch phrase "I'm going diamond!" From reading all of your previous posts, I have to tell you that you should change that catchphrase to "I'm going cubic zirconium!" Because you are an imposter in the world of real money and real class.
Ryan, please tell me u r not serious and you are mimicking a typical IBO
Ryan>What's wrong does the truth hurt?
TD>Nope, just giving you fair warning, that's all. I could really care less what you think of me.
Ryan>I have the nest upline on the planet. I am part of the rocken Greg Duncan team!
TD>I was in WWDB, under Dave Duncan, so I was in Greg's group too.
Send us an update in six months, if you dare!
Em>I was originally asked what sort of investment I had that could do better than 8-12% return every year. And I answered it. What is so hard for you to understand?
Me> Sorry I missed this could you please point me to the answer or kindly post it again....
Thanks,
Embot: "only PR info, etc. you pull, lawdaug, or are you getting alzheimers?
Along with all the other so-called facts/figures which getted quoted by others all too often....."
I've never seen someone "mumble" as they type. You've officially become incoherent, em.
Ryan Hicks, I have a proposal for you. In 6 months from now (let's say February 1, 2006. ) I will pay you one dollar for every dollar over $5000 you are grossing (not even netting) from Quixtar. However, for every dollar under $5000 you are grossing from Quixtar, you pay me a dollar.
Deal?
Sorry Embot, you aren't gonna wriggle outta this one so easily.
southerndeb & mark (and others too I'm sure) ARE interested in your real estate ventures.
I don't have access to the old threads, but I am pretty darn sure that I asked you (it wasn't a 'challenge', Mr. Defensive) to describe what investment you had that *consistently* returned greater than 8-12%.
You replied that you had a real estate venture (tied to A/Q) that yeilded greater than 8%....
...so, NO, really didn't answer the question.
And even if you did...why not do it again, to show your intellect and savvy to the masses??? This sites gets thousands of hits per day....why not win some new friends and influence some more people?
You are missing a big opportunity here Em.
C'mon, FIRE UP, YOU CAN DO IT !!!!
>>You replied that you had a real estate venture (tied to A/Q) that yeilded greater than 8%....
I'm wondering, at one time there was some mortgage thing going on with the Interbiz group in north eastern US....is this possibly what he is referring to?
Embot,
Ok I see now. You just threw that diamonds name out there to be annoying. No problem. I'll just ignore your posts from now on.
Ryan,
lol, I can only imagine how you are going to feel 6months to a few years from now. You are going to be embarrased when remember all the extreme things you said.
So how deep are you in Greg Duncan's business?
wow df, you don't know how to access the archives?!?
Lawdaug, is that the best you can do? Tell me, did Q say Goetschels were sponsored by a Q IBO? Did I lie about it?
I am half way to eagle. I registered a couple of really good friends I went to highschool last year with. My upline said that I don't need to go to university, all that will get me is a useless piece of paper. The best case sceranco there is that I get a JOB.
I AM going to be retiring in the next 6 mths no matter what you guys say. Greg said in a night owl that the world is full of people trying to tear other people down and that's all you guys are doing. Well, I won't let you win.
I was having problems with my parents and they kicked me out because I chose not to go to university. My upline said that it was for the best and helped me find a place to live. These people really care about me and my future. Why would they want to hurt me.
And by the way I hit personaly 750pv last mth! So there!
Ryan > I don't think your the real deal buddy, it's all too much really, your probably a plant here t
I'll take a lash at it.
The majority are scoudrels. I don't think it's deliberate though. People do what people are trained to do. Yes, sometimes common sense should take over, but only if you have experiences to fall back on.
From what I've seen, most people involved in this have very little business knowledge, and that's why they joined. Sure there's Dr.'s and lawyers, but I think that it's fair to say that just because you are a Dr. or a lawyer, you aren't intelligent by default. To me, it means you know how to pass a test. Passing a test and being intelligent are not the same thing.
Back to the training. If people lack thinking skills or life experience, they'll fall back to doing what they are taught. In this, people are taught that they are smart just for being involved. This solidifies that they are doing the right thing in their own mind. When you have someone telling you that you're smart & special, it's only natural you want to please them. It's made easier by providing you one liners and canned resposes (tapespeak) to all the naysayers.
So I do think the majority are bad apples, albeit not intentionally. The majority have been trained by bad apples, and probably don't realize it. They lie without knowing they are lying, they bilk without knowing they are bilking, and they preach without realizing they are preaching.
The term Ambot pretty much hits the proverbial nail on the head.
Ther's a few Ambots that could use a real hit on the head to wake them up from their stupor.
Posted by: rocket | July 26, 2005 1:43 PM