« Burning Ears | Main | Quixtar Leader Series - Getting A's In Business »
June 29, 2005
True Lies
By QBlog in Miscellaneous
Yesterday a site visitor sent me an email that he received from some IBOs in Orrin Woodward's TEAM organization. The site visitor, whom we'll call Ludwig, is good friends with the TEAM IBOs and explained that they are contemplating an exit from Quixtar and TEAM. Ludwig also said that his IBO friends had expressed some concerns to their upline after recently discovering Quixtar's direct connection to Amway.
In response to those concerns, the IBO's sponsor sent them an email to convince them to stay in the business. After receiving the email, the IBOs forwarded it to Ludwig and he then, with their permission, forwarded it to me.
I was given permission to publish portions of the email under the condition that it remains anonymous and doesn't directly identify the IBOs, their upline or Ludwig. What I did is excerpt the most interesting portions of the email and edited them a bit to maintain anonymity. I'm also adding my own comments after each excerpt.
...We know about all the websites that bash TEAM and Quixtar. As with all businesses, there are always a few people that are negative and like to make it known.
Often on these sites, the people do not reveal their identities and if they do, they represent someone else that is not necessarily honest.
For example, there is a man that bought lots of stuff from Quixtar to inflate his PV to go Diamond. He wrote a book which was sold as the most expensive book by the system.
After his diamondship fell apart, because he just did not have the organization to back it up because he basically bought his diamondship, he decided to head up a movement against Quixtar and anyone and anything affiliated with it. He has a website and signs it under a different name where he only tells half of the story to make it look bad - but the picture is incomplete - which is quite unfair in my opinion. So a question to ask ourselves is "How reliable is the source? Who do we listen to?"
Who is this man? Bo Short? He's admitted to buying most of one leg in Honduras but I haven't seen or heard anything accusing him of buying products to reach Diamond.
Or maybe the email isn't referring to Bo Short? Maybe it's some other former Diamond. I don't know. It doesn't provide a name.
And ironically the vast majority of websites that criticize Quixtar are run by people who are very upfront about their identities. There's Scott Larsen, Robert Todd Carroll, Dave Touretzky and Robert FitzPatrick to name a few.
Contrast that with the Quixtar and Diamond run blogs. There's Kia, Bobble, ahb and TheNedster to name a few.
...So what does this all mean?
Well Quixtar has a team of lawyers looking after all the legal issues for their affiliated IBOs.
TEAM is standing strong by the following principle: "People who have integrity expect to be believed and if they are not, they let time prove them right."
Also check out Orrin's site where you will find an attorney's perspective.
It's also convenient that the attorney perspective linked from Orrin's site is an IBO in the TEAM organization. That couldn't possibly be a conflict of interest.
...TEAM's founders did start out in the old business model so they obviously kept all that they thought would be beneficial to the growth of the TEAM including books and CD's.
Why? Because our business is not shopping on line but developping leaders. So, they had to keep and improve on the system to help people develop the necessary skills.
That is why the TEAM is known today to have the best leadership development program — the growth of the TEAM proves it. In 2003 the entire TEAM membership was 30,000, now we are near 100,000. So does this work, yes.
TEAM has 100,000 members! Someone better tell WWG. Also, that would mean that roughly half of all active IBOs are in the TEAM organization. Interesting.
...The TEAM is also the only organisation that profit shares below diamond. Usually all the money from the system would go to the diamonds and they decide what to do with it. The TEAM is run differently, it is based on franchising principles not multi-level. The money goes into the TEAM pot and is profit shared back down to a little lower than Platinum level.
...So the benefits of participating in a concept like Quixtar remains the convenience of e-commerce, the great customer service they have, and the profit sharing program on our purchases. No other store gives us up to 25% of purchases back.
Notice that there's no mention of actually retailing products to customers.
Where to begin? I really don't know what to say. Such emails are consistent with my limited experience with Quixtar and consistent with what IBOs have shared with me over the last couple of years. There's a mountain of misinformation that's repeatedly fed to IBOs and nobody seems to be doing a damn thing about it. Not one damn thing.
And you know what? Ludwig's friends are leaving the business partly because they feel like they were misled. How many others leave for similar reasons? How many more IBOs would there be if Quixtar acted more aggressively to stop the flow of such misinformation.
Why won't they do it? Why won't Quixtar draft a comprehensive strategy to end the lies and swiftly punish those who spread such rubbish? I don't know. Maybe it's money. Maybe it's ego? It's the big mystery.
What I really want to know is if YOU have been told similar things by your upline. If you want to keep your anonymity, post a comment with a pseudonym using a fake email address. Just let us know what group you're affiliated with and what misinformation you were told by your upline.
Thanks.
Comments
This details my exit from Quixtar, there are heavy religious tones in here!! Rather than rewriting this, this is a letter I sent to two of my best friends who have NEVER BEEN IN QUIXTAR
the email links seem to not work, so my email is:
xanadustc@hotmail.com
God’s grace is the greatest. Humility is the key. As James says, God is opposed to the proud and gives grace to the humble. God, in His grace, has showed me an issue that I am sure you knew about, but you let it go since I was growing in the Lord. The problem was this: The business system I was involved in is a cult; one of the more dangerous ones as far as impact. I will explain why it is a cult and how I was removed.
The cult aspect
I will draw on Steven Hassan’s BITE model. First, many Christians have lost the concept of a cult since they only tend to focus on the religious aspects of a cult. All of them are dangerous to the person because they draw you away from the Truth. I will speak in the phenomenological about cults which are modeled in psychology.
There are four types of cults:
1.) Religious. A religious cult is a cult system which emphasizes a way of “Spiritual Salvation� apart from Scripture. JWs, LDS, Moonies, The Way, etc. These claim to be the restored church and often use the Bible, however, they twist interpretations or add additional writings or their own special translations.
2.) Political. These are cults that focus on using Politics to attend their means (Most cults actually do this). They tend to operate using threat tactics designed to keep the people in line. Like ALL other cults, they often have “phobia indoctrination� to scare someone from leaving the system. Political cults tend to be the most physically threatening. A good example of this is the “Operation Mayhem� depicted in the popular movie “Fight Club.�
3.) Social / Therapeutic. These are often disguised as self-help groups or other non-affiliated groups of simply ‘friendships’. These and commercial are the least physically threatening to the body, but often the most psychologically damaging due to the fact that you simply can’t see the abuse. This could be compared to a dysfunctional home (which is often classed as a social cult) where physical abuse is not present.
4.) Commercial. These are cults that focus primarily around business matters, making money, etc. This type of cult is often attached to Network Marketing businesses. Some cults infiltrate corporations though giving motivational lectures and can actually end up using the corporation to fill their ends without the company ever knowing it.
You can see why we have a problem on our hands. The church, being broken into upper story / lower story is only focusing on the religious cults while the rest of them are free to graze the landscape. Although the religious cults promote a “Spiritual Salvation�, all the cults promote a form of salvation.
Here is a very brief outline of Steven Hassan’s BITE model:
B- Behavior Control
I – Information Control
T – Thought Control
E – Environment Control
More information is available from his website www.freedomofmind.com
Here is a brief outline on how the Britt World Wide (BWW) system is a cult. It is paragraphed from the bullets of the BITE model, so it may appear to be graining; certainly not my usual style of writing.
Behavior Control:
Since this is a ‘business’, there is a subset of ways to act and conduct yourself. Since this is a commercial cult, it is not forced, but if you want to succeed, you will do what the leaders tell you to since they are successful and you are not. These activities include how to dress, hairstyles, etc. These things are not intrinsically wrong, it is a healthy thing to conduct yourself in a kind and neat manner.
Next, there is a major time commitment for indoctrination. The teachers in BWW literally say no music, it will not help you succeed, TV and news is bad. They also said at one point that the people on the front line serious about the business don’t need to worry themselves with anything in the world, if there is something you need to know, the leaders will pass it down the voice mail system (therefore, be on the system).
‘Counseling upline’ is critical. You never make a decision without first talking to people upline. If there are any bad feelings, thoughts, or anything else that you have, you never take those to the anyone except your upline.
Rewards and recognition is critical in the system. You get recognized for the littlest of good behavior and then you get paraded around on it as an example. I remember when I received my 1000 pin (a hard to reach level in the business), the leader of the region sought me out to talk. I thought it was odd that he never talked to me before or after (since I did not requalify).
You ever do anything without checking upline first. This is of course since the system has been tried and proven, anything new may have been tried and therefore does not work. This also is the works based salvation system: The system works if you work it, therefore, if you do not work it, YOU are the failure. The group is always right, the individual is discouraged.
You need to be dependant on the upline. It is drilled into people that the upline is the only source that is good for you. The downline does not help you, only the upline. This is particularly interesting since all the money one gets is from the downline. Thus, they are trying to keep you from recognizing the true dependency.
Information Control:
The leaders hold back information that would be useful to know. In my particular case, I found out two years into the system that I was charged sales tax on retail price, not wholesale. I asked about this and he said that it only amounts to a ‘few dollars’, so it is not worth the time. I thought about this and realized that if he is holding back this info, what else is he holding back? There are a lot of things they are holding back, check the internet for these things.
It is discouraged to read news, listen to music, and especially read any critical information about the group. Such information is written by people who are not ‘enlightened’ to the truth of the business model. It is discouraged to spend any amount of time with people who have left the business, though in this commercial system, it is not an often talked about one. You should still see if they are interested in buying the products.
Everything is compartmentalized into insiders and outsiders. The members are told what is good and what is not. There is a booklist (interestingly, Word-Faith leaders Normal Vincent Peale, Robert Shuller, and Charles Capps are among the book list). There is also information that is restricted to the leaders. You get this information by doing all the performing you can and then being invited. The leaders are the ones who decide who needs to know what.
The system has a ton of information that the ‘successful’ ones will plug into. In the BWW system, this includes mostly tapes and some literature. There are a few books written by the insiders, but mostly they are taken from the outside and called ‘good’.
The use of goals and dreams are extensive. From the presentation of the plan to the core of every meeting is the dream. You talk about your dream all the time. This keeps you plugged into the system and moving along, often to your own demise. If you ever entertain the notion of quitting, your very own dreams are paraded in front of you. You are made to feel bad for wanting to give up all that good stuff.
Thought Control
The major component of success is to internalize the truth, that is, what they claim reality to be. The thoughts are made to be very black and white so that you are either on the good side (in the system) or the bad side (out of the system).
Implicit in thought control is the use of loaded language, a sort of sub vocabulary that people inside the system know. As such, I can listen to a person talk for a while and determine if they are involved in a network marketing business because they all tend to speak the same way, though there are different ‘dialects’ intrinsic to each system. There are such phrases as “Stinkin’ Thinkin’�, which was adapted from the outside, but is mostly a phrase used in these systems. There are tons of words, I don’t have a list of them at the moment.
A critical part of the thought control is to minimize thoughts that don’t promote being perfect, great, happy, or super. I can remember Roy Wilt constantly saying “It doesn’t matter HOW you feel; if you are in here, you are SUPER�. What if some one just passed away? What if you are in serious health challenge? This is simply denial. When you encounter such thoughts, you use thought stopping techniques to minimize them.
Finally, there is no questioning the system or the leaders, since it is proven and the leaders are successful. If there is a disagreement, it means that you do not understand that issue yet and that is why you are not successful, too. When you come to the knowledge of that truth, this is when you will start to take off and grow.
Emotional Control
As mentioned above, the best way to emotionally control a person is to limit their range of feelings. Any feeling outside this range is bad and must be stopped with the thought stopping techniques.
Since the system is proven, anyone who is not succeeding is the one at fault. This keeps people emotionally down and dependant on the leaders to teach them how to have the good things in life. Guilt is used here. Wayne Callender said on a teaching tape that if a person comes to counsel and says that he is serious, Wayne will pull up the persons Ditto delivery (an automatic delivery system) profile and ‘see how serious that person is’ (After all, if you are truly serious, you will have 100-300 PV automatically shipped to you every month). He will use guilt to whip someone into line. He is not the only leader that does this, most of them do. If you don’t, you don’t understand that point yet, you get the idea.
Identity guilt is very commonly used. As a person in my own downline told me once “I got top my house and looked and I thought, my father has worked hard all his life and this is all he has�. Identity guilt has the aspects of first, you are not living up to your potential (since you are not wealthy or you have a J.O.B. (a phrase used for work which means Just Over Broke; this is one of those loaded language phrases); Your family can’t help you since they don’t have anything either; Your past life is full of mistakes, so you need us to keep you in line; Your friends can’t help your bank account so you can’t trust them for good counsel; your thoughts, feelings, and actions will betray you. It all boils down to follow our system and all things will go well for you.
I already mentioned ‘phobia indoctrination’ which is instilling a fear about ever leaving the system. There are many, many forms of this in BWW, mostly how broke and sad you will be if you ever leave. The greatest example of this is the statement that I heard from Rex Renfrow at every single conference I attended: “Why would God NOT want you to do this; you have time, money, and are helping people.� The point of this is to make you feel shunned by God if you ever leave the system.
How I was removed from the system
God certainly used a portion of this system for His will. I have said it before; God is so sovereign that He can even make use of our stupid choices. I guess I first started to break away from the system last August. I was starting to work children’s ministry at church as well as other places. There was another ‘attitude meeting’ from the Executive Diamond in my upline a three hour drive away. I left work on August 27, 2004 to go up there, but the car had other plans, as it lost all power on the way. I believe that this is the will of God at work. I was able to get back home, so fortunately I missed the indoctrination meeting, whoops, I mean the attitude meeting. I was a little mad that I was ‘missing all that good stuff’. I took the car to the mechanic and he told me it was the transmission among other things, that for a 10 year old car, it would be better to get a new one. This is when I started to look for a car. I couldn’t buy a car with cash, so I had to finance one; there went all that money for the BWW system. The short end of it is that God broke me financially to get me out of the system. I was be this time listening to several different sermons by RC Sproul, Chip Ingram, Ravi Zacharias, and Adventures in Odyssey, so I was able to replace the tapes I used to listen to (the sermons were full of so much that I desired them other the system tapes). I was not able to make it to the next conference, and I was working in children’s ministry so much that I did not desire to build the business system anymore.
The next step came when I was sitting in the church lobby after a ministry (It was February or March). I was talking to two kids and then they both left. I simply did not get up yet when a person who is new to the church came over and introduced himself. I can’t remember the whole of the conversation, but I told him of some of the work I do and how many more plans I have for the work I do with dysfunctional kids, etc. He said “I have a business that can help you get those resources�. I was immediately turned off, and then I realized that he did the same thing that I used to do. This conversation started me into looking into all this in more detail.
Consequences of the BWW System
Looking back, I think about all the things that I did in the name of ‘business’ and it is very sad. The BWW is one of the worst because the System costs money to participate. Though it is ‘optional’, you certainly participate because you want to succeed. It is a classic catch 22. I got out my records and I found that I spent over $11,000 in four years on system expenses. BWW is what is referred to as a “Shadow Pyramid� by those studying these systems. The money is made by moving motivational materials through the network. I have found that many people have been hurt by this thing. There is money to be made by Quixtar as well, but even that, I do not agree with how it occurs because of the number of people that have to lose out for one person to succeed. Further, looking again at my product usage (Quixtar is promoted as ‘simply change your buying habits), it costs significantly more money for common renewable products than does the local store, and you have to add on shipping as well. I paid over $15,000 for products and over $1500 in shipping in my four years in the business.
keith,
Thanks for your story. I quite honestly don't have a response to that. I am in WWG as well. Your story is very compelling. But its still not going to make me quit.
Here's the thing. Someone reads your stories online and thinks, your right, it's a scam. How are you going to replace their income for them? Are you going to teach them something different, or are you going to let them stand there holding the bag like you did? That is my biggest beef with the anti quixtar people. Trying to convince people they are getting ripped off and lied to, then not teaching them something else.
Are you going to be responsible for these people's incomes that you convince to quit? NO! because you "got ripped off" They should get ripped off too. Misery loves company.
I am not here to convince you to do this business or stay in this business. If you evaluated it for what you think its worth, then thats fine, so what? The damage comes when you do finally convince people this business is wrong. They are left with nothing.
Should the anti quixtar people be responsible for replacing these people's incomes that decide to quit cause of your story? YES!
(side note:hint to passport people: please don't spam me anymore, I ain't joining!)
Michael, your response makes the assumption that the people who are "in" and convinced to quit are making a net income. This is a HUGE assumption, as the VAST majority of participants who are "on system" are running at a loss, so doing nothing IS better than continuing. There is no income to replace, and if they follow our advice they will be better off. The vast majority of the tiny minority who ARE making money are doing so only by virtue of the losses of those who should be quitting.
After that, there's plenty of advice out there about what you CAN do, but there is nothing in the world that can deliver what many people are promised with Quixtar. Nothing in the world, including Quixtar.
Michael,
Let me just say it directly- your premise is wrong, and your logic is twisted, for the following reasons:
If somebody reads my message and is dissuaded from joining "the system", then in the majority of cases I am saving them money, and not costing them income. You will notice that I continue, albeit grudgingly, to accept the decision of a person to do the Quixtar business outside of the QMO's. My one caveat is that the underlying company, Quixtar, continues to condone the actions of the abusive QMO's, which gives me stong misgivings about the whole program.
I am an entrepreneur. I do not, nor have I ever put the onus on another person to take responsibility for my financial success. It is inherently unfair that you tell me that I must replace a generally inferior income generating program with something else because I point out the flaws in that program. I am sharing my personal experiences in relatively low resolution; I would need to write a book to accurately describe the nuances of manipulation, the cultic control of this finely honed system of abuse. Even so, if a potential or current IBO reads about my experiences and finds a common thread, and for a moment questions their true desire to continue down the IBO path- they themselves must still make a personal, rational, possibly difficult decision. I am unwilling to shoulder the responsibility for their adult decision.
I'll say it again: I am not miserable! And I still like company- even the company of some of the more realistic and well balanced current IBO's I know. David Robison, for example - now there's a man that I'm certain I could enjoy an iced tea with over a conversation/debate/bull session!
The logic of your argument that if I gore some IBO's ox that I have to buy him a new one is just plain silly and immature - and Michael, it's also the dreaded "tapespeak". I've heard it from stage innumerable times, and buddy, it's just another tool that your upline has in his/her arsenal to keep you locked in.
For example, if we replace the concept of the business with say, crack cocaine- if I take away an addicts' crack, do I have to replace it with something else? After all, I've left him with nothing- is that fair? I feel that I have done enough of a service in helping him to "see the light", to understand the futility of injuring himself, his family, and his bank account.
Maybe we should start a twelve step program for recovering IBO's?
Qblog should take a stab at the 12 steps, I think.
Keith so you were lied to about tool $$ - i was not. I heard a crossline Ruby sayin front of my and my upline Ruby "I tell my guys, there's money in the tools too". We even show it in the plan every week! $100,000 from BWW at Diamond. you know the CD cost $7.50, and it can't cost more than $1 or 2 to make, obviously someone is making money! Just as someone makes money when you buy a $15-20 music CD. Just as your college makes $$ selling and reselling you textbooks & CD's! What is the issue with tool $??
And Xana, thats got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard! You seriously lost all credibility. You quit the business because your 10 old car's transimition went out. Well I got a flat last Sunday going to my local church, so that was a sign not to go to church anymore right? I mean I shouldn't go anymore right? Wasn't that your logic? What if your son one day gets a flat going to college and he says its a sign to drop out? You're gonna agree with that?? GIVE ME A BREAK!! Maybe, just maybe - that was the "advisary" keeping you from going there to hear something that would've helped you changed thousands of people's lives. Or maybe your car just needed a new transmition.
Your descripton of cults was interesting. Say what you will, Qx isn't a cult - even qBlog says that! If this wasn't your calling I wish you the best in whichever ministry you support. But you trying to destroy this is doing more harm to other than you realize. And thats the truth whether you see it or not.
Michael> Should the anti quixtar people be responsible for replacing these people's incomes that decide to quit cause of your story? YES!
TD> Uh, no. Bystander and Keith said it very well, but I'm going to add my thoughts. The system warps your thinking to believe that you are responsible for another persons decisions; that you HAVE to give someone an alternative to the "40 year" plan. This is what the "counsel upline" directive leads you to believe. According to the system, if you don't listen to upline, you will get into trouble. Therefore, you are responsible to others if your story convinces them to quit. This is co-dependant thinking and very dangerous to get into. I am only responsible for my actions, my decisions and myself. It is not my responsibility to figure out for others what they should do with their lives or financially. I was in WWG too, and if I had followed my uplines' direction, we would have a bankruptcy and a foreclosure on our record right now. Instead, we chose not to listen to them and avoided having to go through those things.
Michael, your line of reasoning is not logical.
The first Amendment of the Constitution of the United States entitles us to print or say anything our little heart desires. How people react is their own business.
Let's say a drug dealer goes to church one Sunday. After hearing the sermon, he decides to stop dealing drugs. Is the pastor who preached that sermon responsible for re-training that ex-drug dealer so he can do something besides deal drugs?? Should the pastor share his income with the ex-drug dealer? Of course not, that would be ludicrous.
Folks share their testimonies regarding "the business" in order for other people to learn from their mistakes - not to take their income away. The truth sometimes is not easy to hear. It can hurt in many ways - emotionally and financially - but it's still the truth. Don't you agree that it is better to know the truth than to go around blindly ignorant. Or is ignorance really blissful?
If I'm being ripped off, I most definitely want to know. I'm not going to shoot the messenger. Or ask him to reimburse me.
If I do shoot the messenger is it the gun's fault?? Or the bullet's? Or maybe the gun manufacturer's? NOPE, just mine.
No one is forcing people to quit quixtar. When people do quit, they need to take responsibility for their own actions.
Michael, I simply can't let your comments go without a response. For example:
"How are you going to replace their income for them? Are you going to teach them something different, or are you going to let them stand there holding the bag like you did?"
According to Quixtar's own statistics (see Qblogs very fine look at the numbers in his post "Who's Making Money in Quixtar"), the odds are so stacked against an IBO making any money that it's almost laughable. Especially when you figure in expenses, including the system. So to address your question about replacing lost income, I would suggest to every single IBO out there (and I was one...), reconsider the job you have. Consider re-educating yourself for another field, if you seek something else. At the very least, sink the money you're currently spending on the system and overpriced products into career counseling. That would be a good start.
I am dumbfounded by the power that system has over people, including me when I was involved. How I could be confronted with truth and still defend the lie is now incomprehensible to me. I am sorry for those people still deeply steeped in the system, and I don't blame them for their "tapespeak." They are victims of a cult. And this site offers a much-needed peek behind the curtain that may, eventually, help others get to the other side of that curtain -- the real-world side.
Tony: "We even show it in the plan every week! "
Does Quixtar/Amway know and approve of that particular plan showing?
Michael: How about the person who decides to quit Quixtar because of me go out and get a job like everybody else is supposed to? If someone was about to jump off a cliff, I'd try and talk him out of it, but it's not up to me to look after him for the rest of his life.
Where the heck do you get off saying that you are responsible for other people's financial future, just because they are in "business" with you?
That's simply a control technique used to keep people with groups in the system, and it's a ridiculous mindset.
It also borders on a God complex, thinking you are sooooo important to everyone's future.
You guys are coming unglued here. Look what people are saying here to justify and defend their association with Amway!
It's really quite pitiful.
I think Michael was just trying to make the point - if you don't like this, show me somehting better." Obviously, no one is going to have to pay IBOs who quit. He was making a point "what do You have that's better."
I like how nobody address my arguments though.
And I also like how TD says "I am only responsible for my actions, my decisions and myself." YET, when some IBO makes a big claim or says someting mean to a downline... then ALL IBOs are bad and deceptive!! And the WHOLE company is a scam!! WAKE UP and see the hypocrisy!! Don't blame ME cause YOUR upline called you a loser - I'VE NEVER DONE THAT. Don't blame ME cause YOUR sponsor downplayed the $$ in tools!! Hold each person accountable for their own actions, and not the group as a whole!
Tony,
You are funny. That transmission was not what got me out of the business, it simply kept me from one more indoctrination session. Old IBO habits die very very hard. Getting a flat tire is a $100 job at worst, a transmission is several thousand. It was not the particular issue of the faulty machinery, it was the fact that I no longer had spare money to pump into the system because it went to a car payment instead because this 'business' is NOT PROFITABLE for the typical IBO. FYI, I NEVER failed to meet the client rule (though 70% was NOT fulfilled, or even talked about in our group except in a negative light). So, no, you failed to pick up on my logic, I don't use things like a faulty car as an excuse to quit a business, college, or any other thing, it simply kept me from that one more session. As far as your 'adversary' remark, you are far more deluded than I originally concluded you are.
Moving on to cults. Qblog is not a cult expert (that I know of). Funny that every major person studying cults (outside of strictly religious systems like CARM) lists AQMOs on thier sites!! It is a cult. I have provided my viewpoint above in several paragraphs. If you think that it is NOT a cult, list your arguement. And don't say 'because Bill Britt says it is not', tha won't hold water. Jim Jones didn't think he was in a cult either!
Moving on to help. Statistics are VERY CLEAR that FAR MORE people are HURT by this system than are helped; therefore, I am doing a great service fighting it. I think many people would agree.
A few things about the "business" always struck me as interesting...
First:
I fail to understand why so many pro-Quixtar folks visit this website. Listen if this business is truely so wonderful why keep trying to convince others? If you guys are really making all this money, turn off your computer, hop in your BMW and laugh all the way to the bank! Seriously, why are you wasting time writing pages and pages of crap to convince those of us who choose a respectable career?
Second:
Why is so much of this secret? Listen if I was trying to convince people that this was the way to go I would be showing them numbers and figures and PROOF of the true profitability of my indeavour.
But then of course if people could figure out what was actually going on behind the scenes then I have a feeling a lot of these "businesses" wouldn't exist at all.
Third:
Lets suppose hypothetically that you are earning one of these "job optional" livings from Quixtar. I mean SOMEONE must be raking in all these start-up fees, books, and audio tapes. But just supposing you do, are you happy with yourself?
When someone asks you what you do for a living what do you tell them? It just seems sort of embarassing to me. I really feel bad for a lot of people getting sucked into it because hardly any of them will get any positive benefit.
I went to one of these "meetings" just out of curiosity and it was really, really sad. Maybe 1000 people came and they were probably lower-middle, lower class folks. The speaker just kept telling them how all there worries were about to be washed away and how financial freedom was just around the corner. For 2 hours he attempted to get the crowd excited and kept throwing in little facts about this business.
What I'm trying to say is you shouldn't have to recruit people by getting them in a good mood and then asking for $235. Why not just show people all the money that's to be made and have a sign up sheet? Why am I watching this guy doing his stand-up comedy routine for 2 hours??
Legitimate business this is not.
Yea, rocket - its how every plan at all 5 opens in 3 differnet states I've been to have gone, you show the 6-4-2, and how 6 Platinums yields $150,000 (from Qx) and how with BWW you can make an extra $100,000. Whats your problem - first we're hiding it, then we Can't show it! I'm really getting tired of purely negative idiots on here!
Add my voice to the many that were outright lied to about the tool profits. The first question my husband asked when he saw a roomful of people paying to attend a meeting was about the profit from the door charge. We were told without hestitation that there was absolutely no profit from meetings and/or tools-- and this message stayed consistent for 3 years at all levels. We stayed in for several years and worked ourselves to a frazzle and finally woke up when we showed a $12,000 loss on our taxes (and no the tax return we got did NOT make up for the $12,000 loss that year).
Our group was encouraged to sell anything of value we owned to buy tools, take out a personal loan (which we did) to buy tools and never to be without a trunk full of tools.
We were in the Florence organization. We also saw the most pins cross the stage after the big "everyone buy a vacuum cleaner" meeting and the "please you must buy a water filter system I need to qualify" push.
Needless to say, we are no longer involved in the business and neither are any of the silver or profit-sharing directs(as they were called at that time) that we were involved with.
" Don't blame ME cause YOUR upline called you a loser - I'VE NEVER DONE THAT. "
followed by:
" I'm really getting tired of purely negative idiots on here!"
There's no way you would be overbearing or impolite to anyone who didn't agree with your viewpoint, is there?
I notice that you are having a tough go at defending the actual (ha ha) "business", so you're resorting to attacks on the not so pre Quixtar folks.
What would you say to Ludwig's friends about the crap they've been fed?
Because there's more of them out there than you're prepared to admit to.
Still waiting to see that big diamond check by the way......................
Tony>And I also like how TD says "I am only responsible for my actions, my decisions and myself." YET, when some IBO makes a big claim or says someting mean to a downline... then ALL IBOs are bad and deceptive!! And the WHOLE company is a scam!! WAKE UP and see the hypocrisy!! Don't blame ME cause YOUR upline called you a loser - I'VE NEVER DONE THAT. Don't blame ME cause YOUR sponsor downplayed the $$ in tools!! Hold each person accountable for their own actions, and not the group as a whole!
TD> I don't blame you for how my upline acted, and for the record, he never called me a loser(this is a tapespeak phrase). However, they (by this I mean Diamonds in particular) are taught how to manipulate people. My story is not unique, THAT is the point. I have not yet seen one LOS that is any better, save Dave Robinson's personal organization (or any others being run this way). I don't think that I am going out on a limb here to say that MOST LOS's and AMO's lie about the depth of the tools income to people below Emerald. If your organization doesn't, that's great but I still feel that it is wrong to make a significant portion of your money from the tools. I also wonder how it sits with Quixtar that you are showing people what they can make from moving tools. They have expressed, in several different lawsuits, that the average IBO (and prospects) should not be aware of the income potential from tools.
What a waste of time - I've gotta stop! Rocket, I can't help that you and some of these people are idiots! And that doesn't contradict my statement of :" Don't blame ME cause YOUR upline called you a loser - I'VE NEVER DONE THAT. " Meaning: I've never called my downline losers!! If someone doesn't want to come to the meetings thats cool. If someone doesn't want to renew, thats fine - I'm still cool with them - I don't ignore them or put them down! Don't blame ME if your sponsor did!
I've never been instructed to take out loans or go into major debt to buy tools. That's ridiculous! And i'm sorry that there are some teams teaching that! You need to find a good team of mentors to work with. I have, maybe I'm just lucky!
Oh, and the IBOs waste no more time the the critbots do on here and there's more of those - probably cause most IBOs tried making argument on her and then realized it was useless like I'm starting to now. I've looked in the archives, there used to be lots of IBOs making good points.
Oh, and just because me and another IBO say something that agrees with each other, doesn't make it unoriginal and tapespeak! Someone said, how can 2 people that have never even met have the same view points on something?? Are you kidding me?? How many of these critbots have met each other and you all agree!! I think abortion is wrong, i'm sure there's some guy in California or Florida, who I've never met, that has the same viewpoint. How is that possible?!? Thats the logic some of you critbots argue with - its a waste of my time.
You know how I'm gonna stick it to you guys. I'm gonna go home and make a bunch of calls and show a bunch of plans, and I'm gonna sponsor a guy, who sponsors a guy, who sponsors a couple, thats gonna sponsor your brother or sister!! And then they're gonna sponsor half your family, 5 are gonna go Platinum or above, and you'll get to be the broke negative -in law, that was too skeptical to take a look at this!!
Ever seen Caddyshack - "the world needs ditch diggers too!"
rocket,
I am not coming unglued dude, I am just making a point thats all.
TD- your comment-"I am only responsible for my actions, my decisions and myself."
Hit the nail on the head. It is what I was trying to get you guys to understand!
You DO have a choice. You have a choice to run your business how you want to.
Show me in the business Compendium that says you can't. This "cult" mentality is hogwash!
Yeah, I'll admit I have been lied to,but so what? So I admit I've been lied to, does that mean I pack up and pull out, or finish the job? You tell me.
Keith, I'll agree with you on "I am an entrepreneur. I do not, nor have I ever put the onus on another person to take responsibility for my financial success." Again, that is not a cult mentality.
Michael’s Response to Keith Sr.: Thanks for your story. I quite honestly don't have a response to that. I am in WWG as well. Your story is very compelling. But its still not going to make me quit.
Imanewme: I see nothing in Keith Sr’s testimony that leads me to believe he wants you to quit. No conflict there.
Michael.: Here's the thing. Someone reads your stories online and thinks, your right, it's a scam.
Imanewme: Keith Sr. is sharing his experience. What others think of his testimony is the sole responsibility of the person accepting or rejecting it. No one forced anyone to read anything.
Michael’s: How are you going to replace their income for them? Are you going to teach them something different, or are you going to let them stand there holding the bag like you did?
Imanewme: Again, you’re assuming that Keith Sr. wants the reader to act. Responsibility for responding to his testimony lies solely on the reader because Keith has nothing to gain or lose from telling his story.
Michael: That is my biggest beef with the anti quixtar people. Trying to convince people they are getting ripped off and lied to, then not teaching them something else.
Imanewme: Keith Sr. *is* teaching the masses who listen to him something else… he’s teaching them that if they are experiencing deception, they would not be the first. Your assertion that he’s not teaching them anything at all is quite false.
Michael: Are you going to be responsible for these people's incomes that you convince to quit? NO! because you "got ripped off" They should get ripped off too. Misery loves company.
Imanewme: Keith Sr. is not ripping anyone off. Where exactly is the freedom of choice to the audience in your train of thought? He’s not begging acceptance. Again, he has nothing to gain or lose.
Michael: I am not here to convince you to do this business or stay in this business. If you evaluated it for what you think its worth, then thats fine, so what?
Imanewme: Now Keith has the right to his own opinion? Hum. There’s fault lines in the logic beginning to show…
Michael: The damage comes when you do finally convince people this business is wrong. They are left with nothing.
Imanewme: How do you figure that? I hear many IBOs say “this is not for everyone.� Perhaps Keith is helping you weed out those candidates who don’t have what it takes. Can you go into the homes of these phantom audience members you keep referring to who take Keith’s story to heart and see how they are harmed? I think you feel threatened that YOUR downline will start to question YOU but you don’t quite have the bullocks to say so. That is how your post strikes me.
Michael: Should the anti quixtar people be responsible for replacing these people's incomes that decide to quit cause of your story? YES!
Imanewme: I’m surprised at you, Michael. Do you think so poorly of your downline that you’re afraid that they will be swayed by some little testimony someone’s offered online? Are you not teaching them to think critically and are you not showing them how wonderful you’re running your business that they can’t be motivated from your example as it should be? If you’re seriously worried by some online testimony, my suggestion to you is to be a strong leader and show your group success. If they’re not intelligent enough to have the critical thinking skills to wade through all the information and make their own decisions, do you want them in your downline leadership anyway? Do you not trust your downline or do you have something to hide? I can think of no other motivation to blame critics for decisions of faceless IBO’s supposed decisions. You’re giving critics far too much power for me to accept that there’s nothing in Keith’s testimony that you personally find threatening. The big question is… why is it threatening to you? I’m genuinely curious.
Bear with me guys...I have two sorta related issues I'm trying to address here.
If a critic persuades an IBO to quit Quixtar, then the critic exercised his right to express an opinion and the IBO accepted the personal responsibilty to take the advice and quit for whatever reason.
I don't have a problem with that. I don't think.
I think my problem lies in the circumstances of the ex-IBO-now-turned critic that then makes the statement that he had NO "personal responsibility" while being an IBO and was "forced" or "brainwashed" or under "cultic control" and refuses to accept any personal responsibility after he's out of "the business".
Is my logic "twisted" if I question an ex-IBO who accepted personal responsibilty and made a valid decision to quit, who then complains he lost money because he was unable to make a valid decision before he decided to quit?
I'm not sure where I am going with this, but IBOs seem to take a "hit" for spouting "tapespeak" and not looking at Quixtar from a business standpoint, and yet the critics are looked at as great "business thinkers" and/or "victims" after they leave Quixtar.
Could the critics have been just lousy business people as well as lousy cult prospects? Has anyone that has become a critic ever declared that they were just not business-minded enough to make Quixtar work?
I know that if I quit Quixtar, it would be for one of two reasons.
1) Dave Letterman decided he wanted to retire and gave me a call to take over the Late Show.
2) I just started to suck at sales and marketing, couldn't pull my a$$ out of the house to make calls, and generally destroyed my business with my own hands.
Either way, I would leave the business knowing I treated it in business manner for a time, and then decided it wasn't the way to go.
Like I said, I'm not sure of my point here, except that "blame" for me has always been directed at me BY me, for whatever I do.
Tonybot & Mikeybot:
You boys are so far gone, it isn't even funny anymore.
If you can't take personal responsibility for your own actions (i.e. how to make a living and afford retirement), then you deserve to be fleeced by others (i.e. your upline).
Drink that koolaid, paddle that canoe, flush what little savings you have down the toilet!
Just don't come crying to me.
BTW, Keith?
I'd loved an iced tea with you...maybe even one of the "long island" variety, if you are an imbider.
Tony: You know how I'm gonna stick it to you guys. I'm gonna go home and make a bunch of calls and show a bunch of plans, and I'm gonna sponsor a guy, who sponsors a guy, who sponsors a couple, thats gonna sponsor your brother or sister!! And then they're gonna sponsor half your family, 5 are gonna go Platinum or above, and you'll get to be the broke negative -in law, that was too skeptical to take a look at this!!
I wish you and your family the very best, Tony. I don't wish anyone ill. I don't veiw any IBO as an enemy. I'm sorry you seem to view critics that way, but again, in reading just the arguments here I don't blame you for getting that impression, either.
My goal as a critic is that by sharing experiences that we can separate the honest Joe from the freudsters... maybe Quixtar will get a better reputation out of all this hubub... there's always that possibility.
You'd think there would be a gradual accumulation of diamonds over the fifty years of Amway/Quixtar.
What, with the unlimited income potential and the ability to make residual income there should be thousands who followed Amway/Quixtar's "proven system of success" as a path to "early retirement" just like Michael and Tony are doing, right?
Let's Take A Look At Quixtar's Own Numbers
According to Quixtar, there are 340,000 current IBOs. 66% of these are "active." That makes 224,400 "active" IBOs.
According to the numbers that Amway/Quixtar are required to provide by the FTC (which found Amway guilty of making false income claims in 1979), the following are the percentages of those "active" distributors that have reached the level of "diamond" and above:
Diamonds 0.00771%
Founders Diamonds 0.00107%
EDC & up 0.00449%
Thus, by multiplying these Quixtar numbers by the official number of "active" IBOs we can determine the total number that have accumulated at each of these highly successful pin levels over the last fifty years (rounding up):
Diamonds 18
Founders Diamonds 3
EDC & up 11
Thus, according to the company's own numbers, despite fifty years of IBOs working to build a residual income, the total number that have accomplished the feat appears to be . . . . 32!
How many have tried? Well, since 1970, according the FTC, the number of distributors has stayed at about 300K-360K and 50% of the whole distributor force quits every year. That's 150,000 former distributors every year since 1970.
Multiply that by 35 years and you get 5,250,000 former IBOs (just going back to 1970). Yet there's only 32 that are at "diamond" level and above today.
That's a whopping "diamond" success rate of . . .
.00061%
. . . or roughly one diamond success story for every 164,000 IBOs.
Keep churning along on that Quixtar treadmill Michael and Tony.
Maybe you guys will be #33 and #34, respectively.
And if you don't make it . . . don't worry . . . the world needs ditchdiggers, too.
:)
Every violation of truth is not only a sort of suicide in the liar, but is a stab at the health of human society.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson
A lie is a lie, is a lie. No matter the intention, no matter the good that might be inadvertently accomplished. People are centering their lives on this business model, and it’s a lie. You can become rich in Quixtar, but it’s not going to happen from selling soap, its going to happen from selling the tools and system to your friends, family and those you sponsor. Can you live with that?
BTW Tony,
Don't threaten to bring my family into this mess of a business, I just might take it personaly.
I'm surprised that was you lawDawg - your numbers are way off. In the 50 year histroy of this business only 3 Founders Diamonds?? Give me a break!
I remeber seeing a list of alltime Diamonds and above and it was like 792 people, not counting spouses! I just found on Amquix.info a list of over 100 Diamonds and above, so that right there shows your #'s are LIES. Just more funny math to mislead the masses.
And Imanewme- when did I wish anyone ill will? Are you saying I did? Me showing a bunch a plans and sponsoring someone critics brother and "cooking his goose" so to speak is not ill will. I wish the best for your family too. Thats why I hope they're in my business oneday. Seriously. No offense, I just have something better to offer them.
ima> My goal as a critic is that by sharing experiences that we can separate the honest Joe from the freudsters...
maybe You ima, but that's not the goal of the average critic. I rarely hear a name of an upline or location of an Open meeting. It's almost always generalizations! It not trying to seperate honest from not - its throwing all IBOs in the same pot! THAT'S WRONG!
Those "diamonds" on that list are all qualified today Tony?
And they aren't my numbers. If you had bothered to pay attention, those are SA-4400 numbers on the percentages (from a BWW advertisement), the total number of current IBOs is from a Quixtar press release and the quit rate and historical IBO numbers are from the FTC.
You're reading comprehension skills have reached an all time low, Tony.
THOSE AREN'T MY NUMBERS. Most of them come from the Corporation itself and the rest are from the Federl Trade Commission.
Nice try though.
Do the math. Don't be a sucker.
Hey Dawson,
Don't you know better? you can't take anything personal with Tony Moron. He has some kind of color belt in Karate, kung fu etc.. he will fight you :-)).. This idiot can't sponsor a single guy. My guess is Tony moron is not even building business. Some LOS or Quixtar is paying him to post here.
Keep dreaming Tony moron... Soon you will get out of that Trailer park into a homeless shelter if you. S
Paddle the canoe!!! :-)))
Tony > Yea, rocket - its how every plan at all 5 opens in 3 differnet states I've been to have gone, you show the 6-4-2, and how 6 Platinums yields $150,000 (from Qx) and how with BWW you can make an extra $100,000. Whats your problem - first we're hiding it, then we Can't show it! I'm really getting tired of purely negative idiots on here! ...
Me > you still haven't answered the question, much like you haven't before, you seem to be pretty worked up today, just take a breather and try to answer the question..."Does Quixtar/Amway know and approve of that particular plan showing?" The question is not asking " hey do you guys really show that" please pay close attention and do your best, I'd like to ask another question but I'm afraid you may miss it but here goes, when you show this magical tool money of "$100,000" do you provide some type of percentage or numbers to back this up (how many on system or the number of tools that need to flow)...heck if I want to get there, I'd sure would like to know what to do to get the proverbial 100K...now remember take your time and try to answer the actual question...
For those who don't know much about cult design: People get into cults often times unknowingly, mind control (not brainwashing) influences you to be deluded that the system is not a cult. I took personal responsibility for myself when I realized what I was in and quit. Quixtar itself is a business; BWW, WWDB, and the other QMOs are the cult aspect. If you are not plugged into those, good.
In all honesty, if all IBOs ran their business like I think you said you do, I would simply say that it is not for me, however, all the major QMOs today do not endorse, teach, promote, or otherwise acknowledge Quixtar without a system; on the contrary, they tell you it is impossible without the system.
I was plugged into the system as a system, and I did run this thing like a business and I did have members and clients in multiple states. The problem is that the product wholesale prices are so high on the common consumables that they have priced themselves out of the market for people. Every single item that I buy month in and month out is at least 10% on the low end and 50% on the high end cheaper at the local grocery store for items of comparible quality. This being said, it does not make good business sense to try to sell over priced items to people on a personal level. There is no room for profit without recruiting. That is where the Quixtar money is made. The problem there is the high turnover of the people in the business; you have to take the time to replace those that got out. The old 'revolving door' policy they used to talk about in the Amway days.
For those who don't know much about cult design: People get into cults often times unknowingly, mind control (not brainwashing) influences you to be deluded that the system is not a cult. I took personal responsibility for myself when I realized what I was in and quit. Quixtar itself is a business; BWW, WWDB, and the other QMOs are the cult aspect. If you are not plugged into those, good.
In all honesty, if all IBOs ran their business like I think Dave R said he does, I would simply say that it is not for me, however, all the major QMOs today do not endorse, teach, promote, or otherwise acknowledge Quixtar without a system; on the contrary, they tell you it is impossible without the system.
I was plugged into the system as a system, and I did run this thing like a business and I did have members and clients in multiple states. The problem is that the product wholesale prices are so high on the common consumables that they have priced themselves out of the market for people. Every single item that I buy month in and month out is at least 10% on the low end and 50% on the high end cheaper at the local grocery store for items of comparible quality. This being said, it does not make good business sense to try to sell over priced items to people on a personal level. There is no room for profit without recruiting. That is where the Quixtar money is made. The problem there is the high turnover of the people in the business; you have to take the time to replace those that got out. The old 'revolving door' policy they used to talk about in the Amway days.
Dave,
As usual, you ask some very valid and thought provoking questions. I'll attempt to show you my point of view on these, the best that I can.
DR>"I think my problem lies in the circumstances of the ex-IBO-now-turned critic that then makes the statement that he had NO "personal responsibility" while being an IBO and was "forced" or "brainwashed" or under "cultic control" and refuses to accept any personal responsibility after he's out of "the business".
Is my logic "twisted" if I question an ex-IBO who accepted personal responsibilty and made a valid decision to quit, who then complains he lost money because he was unable to make a valid decision before he decided to quit?"
TD>I have every right to complain. I TRUSTED my upline; I had every reason to believe them. It is the uplines' responsibility to not lie to their downline, though. How can you make responsible decisions based on lies? However, now that I am out, I'm not looking for the $75,000 I spent on biz expenses that we spent over our 11 years trying to build this thing. THAT is my personal responsibility. We took responsibility for our finances and ourselves when we quit. I am here, criticizing Quixtar in the hope that my story may someday help someone else take control of his or her own life and not defer all of their decisions upline.
DR>"I'm not sure where I am going with this, but IBOs seem to take a "hit" for spouting "tapespeak" and not looking at Quixtar from a business standpoint, and yet the critics are looked at as great "business thinkers" and/or "victims" after they leave Quixtar."
TD>I think its because many of us quit for other reasons (upline deception, high cost, the futility of it all) and then discover the business information later. I know this is the case with me. I'm not entirely decided if MLM is bad in general or if it can be done a certain way "the jury's" still out for me on that one. IBO's take a hit on tapespeak, because it is something that us ex-IBO's recognize, usually something that came from our own mouths while we were still deceived.
DR>"Either way, I would leave the business knowing I treated it in business manner for a time, and then decided it wasn't the way to go.
Like I said, I'm not sure of my point here, except that "blame" for me has always been directed at me BY me, for whatever I do."
TD>Again, one can't make valid decisions based on lies. I think many of us critics did treat this business as a business for many a year.
If you can make a go of it, the way you are (non-system and honestly) then, go for it. I wish you the best, I really do.
Sure, I'll take the "blame" for quitting, it was the best thing I ever did for myself! :)
Tony: "I think Michael was just trying to make the point - if you don't like this, show me somehting (sic) better." Obviously, no one is going to have to pay IBOs who quit. He was making a point "what do You have that's better."
I like how nobody address my arguments though."
a) I'd show you:
#1 - a job, with a savings plan.
#2 - a great idea, with a burning desire to succeed
#3 - a Quixtar business without the tools (again, grudgingly - refer to my previous posts)
#4 - almost any legitimate side business where you can leverage your job skills.
#5 - Gold dredging (possibly not profitable, but one helluva lot of fun- and you get out of the house)
Point I'm trying to make is that there are a lot of options to the QMO based Quixtar business - which is ALL I've been trying to say here.
As far as the tools income disclosure now, where it wasn't readily disclosed when I started... Well, it's all about DISCLOSURE. Wasn't then, maybe is now. Secondly, disclosure doesn't make it either legitimate or ethical. 'Nuff said on that?
From your comments I'm not sure if you see me as a failure in the business 'cause I quit and became a critbot, David. Yes, I was lied to (so get over it, Keith). I was "brainwashed", if you will, in the fact that I bought the big pins' "truths", which were built upon a foundation of lies. The "system for success" is very seductive, and does create an "us vs. them" mentality. But I cannot blame others for the actions that I willingly took, and I don't. What I'm trying to do is simply point out the flaws that I see in the A/QMO process. What others think of my musings is really none of MY business. They are, after all, just my opinions.
I take my iced tea straight up, no sugar. Alcohol, unfortunately, has the effect of making me wake up in strange places :-)
To make it more clear Tony,
# of IBOs is same like 30 years. (FTC / federal court case)
so must be the # of Diamonds
For every new diamond, an old diamond fell off the qualification
Many old diamonds keep getting tool money, travel all accross the world and get speaking fees. And are always recognized as a Diamond.
Data: Quixtar, FTC, Court
32 QUALIFIED Diamonds at any given time.
Need exact links?
Keith and TD,
By no means was I saying either of you were a failure because you quit. I was merely making some observations and posing some thoughts.
All these comments(some heated) back and forth make for interesting discussions sometimes; I suppose I was stiring the coals.
When I was shown the plan, I was never told about the tool money, just that I should buy "these tapes" go to "this meeting" and "get on" "this standing order".
I was also told that reading my Business manual was futile, and I should just pay attention to my upline.
I admit I listened to the tapes, and I got "fired up" on numerous occasions, (for me it was that someday, those people would be cheering for me)
And my wife will be the first one to tell you that I'm easily influenced and persuaded. I had her convinced we should move to Vermont after watching the movie, Baby Boom.) and I was actually considering becoming a preacher at one time, due to my fundamentalist upbringing.
But despite the "rah-rah" of the meetings, and the half-truths I was originally fed, I guess I was never truly indoctrinated into the system. I flew to Ada, I met some Amway corporate folks, I read my Business Manual, and in '98 or '99; I was reading Sydney's site, and Probandt's site, even a pro Amway site that address those sites..The Facts or something like that.
I decided to stay in and make changes in my own business despite the systems.
So, in any discussion about "cults" and getting brainwashed, it simply goes over my head, I suppose.
I can recognize the behaviour in other people(IBOs)..and I can empathize with those that came out of it...but truthfully, I can't "see" how it happens, cause I fought against it, resisted it, or just wasn't phased by it.
Keith, I have two rockers on the front porch and jug of tea made, anytime you wanna drop by, feel free.
Nearly spit my water on the screen when I read that comment, Dave...one of two reasons to quit would be if Dave Letterman were retiring and they wanted you to take his place - very good, a genuine LOL to you!
Tony said: maybe You ima, but that's not the goal of the average critic. I rarely hear a name of an upline or location of an Open meeting. It's almost always generalizations! It not trying to seperate honest from not - its throwing all IBOs in the same pot! THAT'S WRONG!
On this we agree. To throw IBOs in the same pot is wrong, just as it is to throw all critics in the same pot as it is to throw all girls in the same pot.. etc... It's part of what discourages me from participating most of the time here. . . my own personal lack of backbone to stand up for myself against an attack that I might accidently view as personal because I'm still sorting out how to not take it that way. I have many failings I'm not afraid to admit.
I feel a great deal of shame for allowing myself to want the acceptance of Scott and Desha McClusky, Kevin Roberts, and will even go as far to inlclude Danny Snipes in that list.
As far as harboring bitterness? No. I don't. I do not care if the above mentioned people live or die. Their existance no longer matters to me in the least. It may be harsh sounding, but it's the complete truth.
It's not my place to judge them, but I do have the choice to either move forward or stay in the holding pattern of self-pity. Moving forward will not seal my lips forever to the topic. . . because people will continuously be asking questions of the public at large so long as the secrecy of the organizations continue. I would no more withold my opinion from someone who asked than if they'd asked me if I thought Jiffy Lube on University had good service.
What I find facinating and what keeps me coming back to this site for more is that over and over again I hear stories that are so similar that it's eerie... stories from all over the country, not just in my corner of the world... and to some degree I find it comforting that I wasn't the only one that let my gaurd down to the wrong bunch of people. Knowing I'm not the only person who fell prey to some nifty sales pitch kept me from beating myself up long enough to heal from some really trying circumstances.
I'm just glad it's all out here... both sides, duking it out, leveling the information playing field.
That's all.. more than anyone wanted to read, I'm sure.
Sorry I misread your statement of "Ill show you.. I'll prove you wrong..." as a patronizing statement showing ill will to the critics. My bad. Miscommunication just happens... and I will not withold my apolgy.
Ima
Gentlemen,
With any business structure, be it corporate or MLM there are going to be negatives and positives. The corporate world in which I reside is a doggy dog world. There are lies beyond belief, scandals that devastate thousands of retirement plans, and a board of directors that could care less about who you are as an individual as long as they are putting money in their pockets...The bottom line is the bottom line. Resumes, Interviews be prepared because when you think your job is rock solid, think again. I've seen more people who have devoted their lives to corporate companies only to be blind sided by corporate scandals and deceit. Leaving them with nothing more than a thank you and good luck. And for the Brick and Mortar Entrepreneurs, Capital Funding is no easy task... and even if you get it, good luck with the 80+ work week that comes with it. MLM's & Quixstar, first off I'm not in it, but I have considered and I have seen the plan. 2nd get some realistic expectations, 2-5 yrs maybe, but be realistic maybe it takes you 5-10 yrs, would it be worth it? Not having to worry about making it to work on time, meeting weekly & monthly quotas, keeping your resume updated for the day that potential downsizing happens, or the merger that wipes out your department. Be realistic in the fact that your going to be spending some money, but also be realistic in the fact that if you can get something from Wal-Mart that is not a core product, go get it. And one question, how much volume would you need running through your business to make up for the difference in over spending on your monthly core products? Anyone? So why not sponsor enough to cover those cost....and while doing so explain that to the person you sponsor? And tool expenses that you have all been bickering about, write them off, be smart and use of them on an as need basis. I can understand that you would be upset if you were misinformed but have you ever been misinformed at your job. do you quit your job when your misinformed? maybe but get your resume ready. And I'm not saying all corporations are bad but the corporate world as a whole is doggy dog. Its sink or swim, and most of middle class America is sinking. How's your retirement plan? 401K ..do you understand it? Most Americans don't have a clue about investing. Tools, even though they may be over priced, the average person needs them...and if any thing they've spent some money to gain some skills. My Jury is still out on becoming an IBO? I have business ventures in place but I need the cash cow to push me through, could Quixtar be the answer???? Any responses????
I'm glad so many critics are cool with David R, but why is it I am somehow a crook because I listen to a CD or go to a conference?? What makes conferences so bad. My brother goes to Builder conventions all the time. I have an uncle that goes to a Pharmacy conference 4 times a year! Why is it different when we go to a conference to get around other Business owners, and learn from the best in our industry? And its optional! If my bro don't go, he gets fired!!
Mark, I don't work at Quixtar so how would I know if they "know about it or approve it"? Its not a guarantee, its simply mentioned that there is available $ from BWW too, if you choose to. We don't go into details of tool $ in an overview, just as when I went to college they didn't tell me what % of the school's revenue comes from the sale of books, and what cut teachers get.
Stop trying to make that out to be something its not! When we don't talk about tools, we're bad, when we do we're bad. Quixtar or the FTC should say something if we can't say there's money in the training system too! Its not like its a secret - its in every plan every week, and I've been to 5 Opens in 3 states!!
And Dawson you said> You can become rich in Quixtar, but it’s not going to happen from selling soap, its going to happen from selling the tools and system to your friends..." you are so blind by anger its not even funny. Dawson, do you have ANY idea what you're doing?? You're simply repeating what you've heard others said to sound smart! Talk about tapespeak!?!
Dude, you weren't even an IBO - I don't even think you went to more than 1 open with your friend, and now you're an expert on Diamond income and bonuses. Hey, tell me how the Emerald bonus works, or tell me how the QGI works. You have no clue!!
Do you not get it!! Yes, there is money in tools! People make $$ selling knowledge! Knowledge & experience has value!! [COLLEGE!] But tools is not the only $$ in Quixtar! I've seen single month checks for $90,000 and $124,000!! I've seen my Platinums actual Platinum bonus for $2500! Just an extra bonus for hitting Platinum. I've seen the $10,000 Q-12 bonus that anyone can get for just holding 7500pv for 12 months, and you get it every year!
And Imran?? >For every new diamond, an old diamond fell off the qualification"
You have lost your mind and ALL credibility!! You DO NOT undersand how this business works! The business is residual and able to be passed down 2 generations! If a person goes Diamond, like Bill Britt, just because another person goes Diamond doesn't mean an earlier Diamond has to fall off! Its not static at 32! Where did you Get that?? Eventually when Britt is dead and his business has passed down to his grandkids, then his number will dissolve and no more bonuses to that # will be paid. Only then will a Diamond drop off. But only 32 Diamonds & above is nuts! Robinson, any input here?
And even if the number of Emeralds and Diamonds etc. stayed the same: Do the work to BE one of them!! Is your company adding CEOs and VPs? noooo, but do the work and maybe you'll be one!
DB,
Most of us 'critics' speak from experience. Look at it from a business perspective. Look at the number of successes; look at the number of failures. What makes the difference between a success and a failure in this system? Is it a system that can reliably be done? Do the expenses fit the plan? In our many, many collective years in the business (Mind you that Tony has been in this system for only about 1.5 years, I don't know about the others), does what we say make sense? I would recommend you read through Scott Larsons site if you haven't already, look at www.pyramidschemealert.org, look at mlm-survivor. The facts are out. These stories arn't just doggy dog business doing its thing, this is about total rock solid deception on many levels about many things in a business model that has never shown long term success for the masses as they claim it does. Do the math and you will find that it is theoretically impossible for masses to succeed in MLM
Hope this helps,
X
DB
You talk as if you are a smart business man. So, tell us what you think of lawdawg's stats? They are real. Would you hang your hat on that much "risk"?
I'm a business man myself with the world's largest corporation. Your perception of corporate America is a little "extreme". Irregardless, I was smart enough to see Quixtar for what it is...a scam at best and once I learned more, I'm now convinced the motivational groups are cults. These groups aren't just liars, they tear apart families and friends (see my story), they try and tie religion to business, they consume your money, time, etc...basically your whole life.
x> ...in a business model that has never shown long term success for the masses as they claim it does.
BOLD FACED LIE!!! Never have we said it guarantees success for the masses! How did you deduce that. In Quixtar's literature that talks about what the average IBO makes and what percentage hit each level?? Is that what you read as the promise of great wealth to all the masses!!
X, you quit the business for no good reason at all. You said your car broke down on your way to a meeting and you took it as a sign from God!!
And JD - the mouse that made his wife build the business BY HERSELF and then divorced her, took her SON, and doesn't even pretend to feel sorry for her, thats she's now financially wrecked!! Maybe the 2 of you together could have built this business. Maybe the association could have helped your marriage. Cause with my own 2 eyes thats what I'm seen - not on stage, but upline and crossline, right in front of me every week!
I don't know why your marriage went south. If i remember I think she cheated, and thats inexcusable in a marriage - but that doesn't make Quixtar bad cause your wife made a mistake. It could've worked for you guys. I hope it still works for her. Do you JD? Do you hope she goes Platinum, and helps a few hit Platinum. Do you hope she gets her life back together, or did you like seeing her crawl??
Tony -
You criticize LawDawg's analysis (which is based on data published by AmQuix), but offer no real data to refute it.
Why should anyone believe you more than the SA-4400?
In fact, why haven't you ever answered this question? A question posted by dozens of people on occasions too numerous to count? How about backing up your claims with some kind of data, instead of speaking in vague generalities and making out-of-context comparisons?
Almost everything that your organization states is either an out-right lie, a half-truth, or something taken so far out of context that it is useless. This is the hallmark of a high-quality business? If your "opportunity" made money for most of the people involved - YOU COULD DISCLOSE AND PROMOTE PERFORMANCE METRICS.
But you can't, because a guy selling candles in a mall kiosk has a better chance of turning a profit than "networking" IBOs. That's a fact - per the SA-4400.
Mike
xanadustc -
Tony and his ilk don't give a damn that the vast majority of IBOs cannot and will not make a dime. The only reason that I bother posting anything in here is to remind others of that simple fact.
Mike
Tony said "you are so blind by anger its not even funny. Dawson, do you have ANY idea what you're doing?? You're simply repeating what you've heard others said to sound smart! Talk about tapespeak!?!"
Thanks Tony, for explaining to me once again what I am and am not. I have not once presumed to tell you what your thinking in that "!" head of yours, I have not spoken in any absolutes but those seem to be your favorite. So let me tell you a few things in analogical form as you seem to prefer.
I don't have to devour a rotten hamburger to find out that it was rotten. I can smell the decay and not eat of it or I can learn from another that DID eat the hamburger and see how ill it made them. It’s called logical process and it keeps a person from suffering the same foibles over and over again.
Your college analogy is extremely flawed. You end up with no degree or accreditation from your system tools. After you have washed out of your "business" no company will hire you just because you read and listened to Quixtar propaganda material. With a degree you at least have a chance of entering the degreed field...I could go on but why? I think most reasonable people see this.
Also, Tony with you around, I never have had to try and "sound smart" When you compare the two of us I think it just comes naturally.
DB>The corporate world in which I reside is a doggy dog world.
That is so funny! Doggy dog. Do you really not know the idiom?
Tony: fyi Bill Britt has no children or grandchildren. Only cats. So much for that example.
David R: Let me know if Keith Sr. bags out on you. Those two rockers and the tea (unsweetened) sound pretty good.
Keep at it guys; it's good conversation. But please keep the name calling to a minimum?
Re: LawDawg's numbers.
2 points to add to the facts. Not to dispute them.
The 340,000 IBOs now listed and compared to the 70s does not take into account the remaining 2.5 Million other distributors in Amway. Many Diamonds qualify based on international distributors and #2 Businesses located internationally.
Most IBOs can't refute the 32 Diamond figure, because they also refuse to acknowledge they are also involved with Amway.
Yes DB, just FYI, it's "Dog Eat Dog" like the game show. You'd think someone with so much on the ball about business would know that much anyway.
Tony, you fountain of wisdom, you never did answer a question I had:
What would you say to Ludwig's friends about the crap they've been fed?
BTW, I'm pretty sure the Corp. does NOT authorize the tools income as part of the sales and marketing plan.
Just stick to trying to (ha ha) "sell" a bunch of overpriced products.
Do tell:
What would you say to Ludwig's friends about the crap they've been fed?
Wouldn't you agree they've been lied to on a bunch of different levels?
And that's by one of the great exalted leaders groups!
More humor on the funny pages of life!
DB says that he's not yet an IBO, but he sure talks in the absolutes that I've heard from stage and on tapes regarding the "futility" of "business as usual".
Funny, I'm an entrepreneur, and Capital Funding (sic) is not that big a deal. And why does it have to be "Brick and Mortar Entrepreneurs"? Is capitalization any different for them than for intellectual property or service profession entrepreneurs? Or did you just hear that somewhere? I believe that, at least for credibilities' sake, one should talk about what one knows (uh-oh, I feel the a-hole in me coming out...)
I believe that the phrase is "dog eat dog"; doggy dog sounds like something that happens at kennels :-)
"BOLD FACED LIE!!! Never have we said it guarantees success for the masses! How did you deduce that. In Quixtar's literature that talks about what the average IBO makes and what percentage hit each level?? Is that what you read as the promise of great wealth to all the masses!!"
I guarantee that the average income information supplied is in the absolute smallest typeface permitted by law - heck, if it were my corporation, I wouldn't consider that to be a selling feature! It's there to satisfy the legalities - why would any IBO want to present this reality? If it's me, I'm going to look in the prospects eyes and say "you can do a lot better than the average! After all, are you an average person? Of course not!"
After all, would you join for $115 per month?
I thought that the college thing got debunked a LONG time ago, for just the reasons Dawson so aptly restated. "Graduating" from the QMO school carries less weight in my circles as "Hamburger U" - at least you learn a valuable food service trade in the latter!
Sorry, Tony, but it only sounds nuts because the truth is soooo far off from what you want to believe.
But those numbers come from reliable sources. The FTC, the Corporation's own press releases and the SA-4400.
There are as many Quixtar IBOs today as there were Amway distributors in 1970. The business hasn't grown at all IN 35 YEARS! That's why Imran is right. There's no new diamonds because every new diamond takes up a space left by a diamond who falls out of qualification. Remember, the number of IBOs is relatively constant and has been for more than three decades.
And the numbers from the FTC and AmQuix itself, prove that that is exactly what is happening.
It's irrefutable math based on Amway/Quixtar's own publicly released data.
Sorry, Tony.
You're the one that's nuts.
Tony>
I'm glad so many critics are cool with David R, but why is it I am somehow a crook because I listen to a CD or go to a conference?? What makes conferences so bad. My brother goes to Builder conventions all the time. I have an uncle that goes to a Pharmacy conference 4 times a year! Why is it different when we go to a conference to get around other Business owners, and learn from the best in our industry? And its optional! If my bro don't go, he gets fired!!
Jason>
So are we to assume from your comparison that at the builder conventions and pharmacy confrences your brother and uncle are learning how to recruit people into being builders and pharmacists? Is that why they got into these professions, to make more builders and pharmacists? My sister is a pharmacist but I don't ever remember her talking to me about the awesome pharmasist opportunity.
Nice try though.
Tony> And Imran?? >For every new diamond, an old diamond fell off the qualification"
You have lost your mind and ALL credibility!!
just because another person goes Diamond doesn't mean an earlier Diamond has to fall off! Its not static at 32! Where did you Get that??
Imran> Here is the source
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2004/09/zero-population-growth.html
1977 FTC Case:
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/mlm/ftc/amway.htm
360,000 IBOs in America
Quixtar own press release in 2004 said 340,000. Ken McDonald.
OR
2004 pay out = $373,000,000 payout
http://tinyurl.com/a42zz (PDF)
divided by the "average IBO payout" = $1380/year ($115/month x 12)
$115 is on SA440, right?
270,290 active IBOs. Well, Quixtar press release was better :)
So, active number of IBOs are decreasing. How on earth number of diamonds can increase?
I know i know, u are thinking its all BS. Well, I know many many diamonds. More than 32. But they are not qualified! You qualify for diamond once than u r always called diamond. Like a person is always known as their highest pin.
For more than 32 Diamonds, get more active IBOS ;)
Keith,
I never said for anyone to get over the tools pyramid thing, have I?
I have a little different twist on the types of things you relate. I always knew the big pin got "the door" for speaking, from my one of my first functions. My direct just told me, it was no big deal. Honestly that never fazed me negatively. Now, if you think getting the function proceeds is bad you should have seen it in the "old days," the early 80's. I wasn't in then, but heard some pretty outrageous stories of stuff that went on. Compared to that, what was transpiring seemed a lot cleaner by comparison.
As far as tape monies, I figured it was going somewhere. Seemed to be a big unknown. I never asked and never really cared. I cared more if the tools were working for me. If they were lousy speakers, then I cared.
I liken the whole thing to a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Yeah, I'd prefer they're more upfront about it. However, the blatant lying about it is not tolerable. Consider the upline organization also, Keith. I know where you were at. (not good). But there are other organizations within Worldwide, in which the culture is different--Head or Nelson, for example. The "program" yes, pretty much the same, but the sense of how to treat people, a different story.
And also consider, not all the system money is divvied out as profit to big pins. Worldwide productions has large expenses, for example.
I have seen what some of the venues cost, especially the smaller ones. With the lower attendance, they generally lose money on those, after the bldg. rental. That's really why they eliminated the Emerald mini functions.
Ideally all business would be on the up and up, it would provide a more honest and trusting environment for trade and commerce.
I am not so naive as to believe that is the case in all individuals and there businesses. However, what I can question on this convenient and informative board is the morals of the Quixtar business and its plan, members and leadership.
Tony and a few others that frequent this site do not like these questions, but I do commend them for at least sticking it out and trading punches (no matter how low at times.)
To me it seems that they at least have a curiosity towards what others are saying, thinking and believing. Many of these quasi-unfortunates that have sworn there lives and loyalty to the upline would not "stretch" (to use a term I have heard in AM/Quix) and instead ignore popular judgment entirely.
We can look at this as either an annoyance or as a blessing. In truth, If we had no Tony, then we would have no insight into the nefarious aspects of Am/Quix and the lessons in analogies that it can teach... "See an IBO is like a lemming, if you’re not out of the cliff's edge and willing to jump, you can't grab the Diamond!"
I can not fully comprehend what it would take to question ones life and motivations after being in this business for a few years and realizing that it might all be a lie. It must be pretty hard to swallow, the biggest peanut butter sandwich to choke down and no glass of milk...that hard.
So here is to the Q-bot and the crit-bot, who form a beautiful symbiotic relationship. Just like a peanut butter sandwich and a big ol' glass of frosty milk. We will get through all of this together.
Dave:
Yes, there's lots of growth in other countries - especially Asia and Russia. Pyramid schemes can show amazing growth initially (as Amway did in the U.S. so very many years ago). But unless you are already in those countries with a big group you are too late. And if you are recruiting for Amway/Quixtar in the U.S. - where the total number of distributors is about the same now as it was 35 years ago - then you are waaaaaaaaaay too late.
Imran,lawdawg,
With your numbers, have you factored in the new Amway Diamonds yet? Since your logic leads us to believe Amquix is one in the same. Forget quixtar- only Diamonds, how many new Amway only Diamonds were there last year? Better yet, how much revenue did Amway take in last year?
it seems your numbers are going back to the 70's (which was Amways era), then your taking quixtar's profitability and getting them blended together to make it look like a losing business. You also have to factor in Amway's revenue as well.
Also, to answer xanadustics questions,
"Is it a system that can reliably be done?"
Yes it is IF you are coachable and teachable and willing to work hard.
It sounds like tapespeak I know, but it's common basic business knowledge.
"Do the expenses fit the plan?"
If you are creating Volume in your business the expenses should be congruent with your level of activity. About 10% of you volume should be invested in your expenses. For myself, I am currently OFF Standing order, yet I will be re qualifying as platinum this fall. Still think it can't be done without tools? think again.
Also, I am noticing the critics aren't readily willing to admit right up front that they want the IBO's to quit. Why is that? It's because the critics want the IBO's to "form their own opinions" based upon the "lies" told by the "system". Instead, you want us to form an opinion based on YOUR experience, not our uplines experience, shouldn't you critics be held accountable for the IBO that decided to quit based on what he read here?Just pointing out an observation made by the critics.
Michael> Imran,lawdawg,
With your numbers
Imran> For the last time, NOT OUR NUMBERS. Quixtar / Amway press releases, FTC, SA-4400.
And we stayed in North America only! Nice try.
Micheal,
You stated my point more clearly than I could myself:
"Yes it is IF you are coachable and teachable and willing to work hard"
In Cult theory, this is called 'system over person'. The PERSON is the one at fault, not the SYSTEM. Your system does NOT produce long term wealth, knowledge about business, product info (except for a few random tapes); All your system provides is hype to fire you up to go out and talk to more people about the system again. Many of us were very coachable, very teachable people, yet nothing happened. What about the tens of thousdands of IBOs who are still holding that 'tight grip on an empty sack' as Nardone likes to say. They are still not making a profit, it is still not working, they are still throwing away money and it will be all for nothing for somewhere around 13999/14000 people (is that correct lawdawg, I don't have the number at the tip of my tongue)
You say you are going to requalify platinum. Don't give me that trash talk, I have heard hundreds of people (including myself) spout out how they will be reaching this level and that level. In all my years, I saw non-qualified silver after non-qualified silver jump in go platinum, fall back out, I saw 'emeralds' who were 'on the fast track to diamond' that never made it and are still emeralds, etc, etc, etc. Smoke and wind is what is pouring out of the average IBOs mouth. There are a few exceptions to this, so don't give me your shining example that is paraded before your team of the example to follow. These people are used to ends of the system promoters.
Micheal>If you are creating Volume in your business the expenses should be congruent with your level of activity. About 10% of you volume should be invested in your expenses.
X>This is a good practice, but, sorry, it is NOT taught in ANY LEVEL in BWW. In fact, the phrase used on dozens of tapes is "If your car is out of gas, do you take gas out? No! You put more in". The context that this is used is that IF YOU ARE NOT GROWING, PUT MORE MONEY INTO TOOLS!!! It is taught over and over and over in BWW. This is a REALITY and if you really care for references, just keep that in mind when listening to you SOT. I know I heard Kumar say that, but there are many who have said that.
Can someone make it without the system...YES, but you won't be allowed on stage to say that and you will be missing out on 50+% of your income.
And I DO suggest that IBOs quit; I know that is as pipedreamy as suggesting you will all be diamonds, but what can I say. I am fundamentally opposed to MLM as a whole (and that opinion is NOT shared by all the critics). This opinion has NOTHING to do with whether I or my friends third distant removed cousins fouth wife's first roommate's friend says or does or is an Amway diamond. I base this on the principles of true analysis of the Holy Bible and the contrasts to what MLM teaches, does, and suggests.
"shouldn't you critics be held accountable for the IBO that decided to quit based on what he read here?"
! Sure! I'll be held accountable for someone finding out the truth. Not a problem.
As far as punishment - HA! What's going to happen? I mean, seriously. What would happen to me if I was held accountable in a legal sense? I'll tell you what - NOTHING!
Just like if your (ha ha) "leaders" were held accountable for their actions.
In order to be held accountable civilly (there is no criminal offence here in being a crtic) what I say would have to be proven as slanderous and untrue.
Won't happen.
As far as being accountable for other people quitting this fabulous opportunity, sure, if they quit because of the oservations I have lived and pointed out.
I'll take the blame,
Or credit, as it were.
It's not a question of "factoring in new diamonds." You aren't following this at all. The number is the same. IT HAS BEEN FOR 35 YEARS. If there are new people qualifying as diamond today in N.A., it's because someone else is no longer qualifying.
That's the clear implication of having the same total number of IBOs in North America for the last 35 years. And those aren't _my_ numbers. They come from the corporation itself and the Federal Trade Commission.
And guess what? That fact - absolute evidence that there has been no net growth in North America in the last three decades - is corroborated by another set of numbers, the extremely small number of IBOs (again, based on Amway/Quixtar's own numbers) that qualify at Diamond level or above at any one time.
All the data shows the EXACT SAME THING. There has been no net growth in Amway/Quixtar since the early seventies.
xanadustic,
"Can someone make it without the system...YES, but you won't be allowed on stage to say that and you will be missing out on 50+% of your income."
Who cares?If all your concerned with is profit, then don't worry about crossing the stage or going after the next pin level, or ordering books tapes, or going to functions.
Isn't THAT what you guys criticize everyday?
Also, fyi xanadustic, I am NOT in BWW. I am in WWDB.
My suggestion is to go after making it profitable FIRST. Then teach others to do the same. Common, logical, business sense.
Imran, as far as your numbers go, show me where on the SA-4400 it has those numbers? I have one right here in front of me. If you were staying in north america's figures, then you should have stated that Pre-1999 these were Amway's numbers, not quixtar's numbers. If you want to talk facts and figures, please tell us the difference between Amway's numbers and quixtars numbers. Isn't Amway currently in the 5+ billion dollar mark? So if we were to listen to you guys tell us Amway/Quixtar is one in the same, then we can say quixtar is a 7+ billion dollar corporation?
Get your facts and figures right.
Keith Sr. wrote:
"It's funny, M&M and Tony want me - all of us - to get over the tools pyramid thing."
I'm still waiting for one of those bots to address the negative sum game issue. I brought it up - how many times is it already?, 15, 20? I lost count.
Micheal,
Half or more of your profit goes away without the system; BWW teaches unity to the system, hence my standpoint against BWW as a cult system.
I state again, I am against the entire idea of MLM. There are many aspects to my arguement, one is that BWW is a dangerous cult, second, the tool system flowing through BWW is a shadow pyramid which by current law is illegal because those tools are used for profit AND they never reach a non-involved end user THOSE MUST BE MET SIMULTENOUSLY, SO DON'T PULL THEM APART SEPERATELY!! When I was involved, they slowly (and causually) disclosed that 'some money' is made in the tool system. I embraced this as acceptable, but see that indeed, it is different from buying a CD from a music store in that I am not encouraged to buy every single week in and out.
The next aspect I am against is that vast number of people that must be cycled through the system before any long term profit can be recognized. The profits made in the medium are those of the people who jumped in, bought a bunch of things, and got out.
I can find more against the system if I think longer about it, but I don't hold that Quixtar is an appropriate way one should use their savings for an investment idea.
Everybody please disregard my last posting. I forgot that Tony already gave me an answer to that issue - that IBOs are following quixtar and the FTC's rules to the letter by retailing most of the products that they purchase.
I doubted Tonybot at first, but he then asked me to read his lips, so now I believe him.
Tonybot:
Did you scan that check into QBlog yet?
But Michael, don't you get it that most of these critbots just like thrwoing out insults, and like twisting numbers and half truths to make us look bad.
About Ludwigs friends?? How were they lied to?? Because no one said the word Amway. No one told me Amway in the overview, but when I did research I learned that Quixtar was owned by the Co. that also owned Amway, started by Devos and Van Andel, who also owns the Orlando Magic!
I saw the plan for what it was - I didn't listen to hype. Think about it - these guys saw the plan and like it! They got started, were building it - and then decided to quit because of the word AMWAY?? These guys are morons!!
lawdawg> And if you are recruiting for Amway/Quixtar in the U.S. - where the total number of distributors is about the same now as it was 35 years ago - then you are waaaaaaaaaay too late.
Tell that to my sponsor who after 2.5 years had 100+ people in his biz and 9,000pv and made $3200 this month. He's 22, still in college.
Just cause someone tells me how they wasted $24,000 going to college and never ended up getting a degree, got a job, worked for 7 years and then got laid off, that isn't going to deter me from going to college and getting a job, if I deem it worth doing. I'm sorry it didn't work for you, its working for me! And I'll make sure it works a lot better, for me and others around me.
df, maybe you didn't read my post - I said "post your email here or email me at tonyqibo@yaho.com and I'll send you the .pdf" I'm not sending it to qBLOG to post here. I'm not sure if that's cool with Qx or the FTC. And I don't think he wants to be my secretary forwarding it to all of you.
But as I thought - I received NOT ONE email asking to see the checks. Because as I said before - you guys really don't care. You just like to b!tch, and no matter the amount of proof - you guys WILL NOT EVER BELIEVE!!
Ok, now that I've got a minute.
> Rocket, I can tell you are an educated person and you are correct, it is a "Dog Eat Dog" world, but since I happen to be a Snoop Dog fan :) and a generation X adult "Doggy Dog" is what it is.
And LawDawgs #'s add up, no doubt, but just like the corp. world, Only one person can be the CEO in a corporation, generally making most o
I'm not anonymous, nor am I afraid of anyone who is willing to do a little digging to find out who I am. The email link works.
I was in WWG, Amway, from 1995 to 1999. I closed my "private franchise" and surrendered my downline unconditionally to my upline shortly before the launch of Quixtar.
I quit for one clear reason: I was lied to. By my sponsor, my upline direct, pearl, emerald, and diamond - in fact, the whole system! And the lie was about tools.
System Income
Virtually unknown below the gold direct level at that time (but often starting at silver in distance legs) was that there was a "tool break" for standing order tapes and CORE tape and books. This break was explained away at the time as "just a little something" given to directs to help stock and maintain the flow of "system building tools". After all, they were working so hard in their push for ruby-to-diamond!
When I found out about this was when I started to do the research... And I didn't like what I found
See, when I started my business, and plugged myself in for the next 4 1/2 years, I specifically asked "are the tapes, books and functions a profit item?" In other words I, even being new to the program, realized that there was the potential to tap into an income stream potentially even more profitable than selling soap, and knew that I didn't want to sell motivation - I wanted to move volume (like SOME of the present day Quixtar IBO's seem to want to do).
I was told that the "tools" were moved through the distribution network virtually at cost; that the leaders of WWDB developed them at their own expense to train and motivate their "private franchisees" to move volume. Their explanation sounded legit, and I believed them.
In hindsight, what an idiot I was.
I swallowed their lies hook, line, and sinker. See, I loved the idea of the model and wanted it to be true. The idea that these Christian businessmen and women of such high moral standing understood the concept of sowing and reaping, and were willing to give of their own time, effort, and money to help ME build a business both amazed and humbled me. Especially since I knew that they wouldn't truly profit from me until I profited from my business... right?
Do I hear an "Amen?"
So cut forward to 1999. My business is chuggin' away. I've sponsored 19 in personal width, have had legs go to 1000, was plugged in... I'm goin' ruby, no doubt... Consistant eagle... Blinders on, no negative downline, counselling upline, don't even read the PAPER for gosh sakes... And the bomb is dropped.
I'm running a business in technology, electronic hardware sales, selling stuff that's going up in the Space Shuttle, or deployed in missile defense - and the ONLY thing I use the internet for is email.
Friends outside the business would ask me "how's that Amway business going - you rich yet?" Sometimes nasty or needling, but more often than not just really wanted to know. I'd tell 'em tha party line... "Great/fired up/gonna retire in 2-5 years/best business opportunity on the planet..."
And I meant it.
Then I, for a brief moment, let my guard down, and that's when the foundation started to crumble. After all, a foundation built on Quixsand has no chance :-)
One of my downline, a man that I came to love (in a manly way) and trust, came to me at one product pickup very agitated:
"Did you know that the emeralds and diamonds make A LOT of money to move tapes and speak at functions?"
Well, I said, I know that there is a small tape break for directs, but just 'cause their stocking them and working to pass them out at pickup...
"No - no, they're making big money! Sometimes more than they make on their emerald and diamond bonuses"
I calmed him down, said I'd check into it. Got on the internet that very night, and didn't sleep for the next two weeks...
The next pickup I went with my wife, to talk with my upline direct (we were picking up directly from the ruby 'cause of our volume). I asked hime about the "tape break", and whether the emeralds and diamonds got one, too. He said, in a rare moment of candor, that he had heard about the profits from the tools going to the big pins, but after all, they deserved it for giving so much of their time and effort to build our businesses "virtually underneath us"
I replied that yeah, that was great- but how 'bout when I asked our diamond (in his presence) whether there was profit in the tools, and if so, who got it... And the diamond said, "no, any profits from the tools get poured right back into the building of the network"
Didn't that bother him at all? Heck, he lied to me!
So my upline ruby gets all mad, says do your silver a favor and just quit if you don't like it... I said sounds like a great idea, by the way I've got some tapes I'd like to return.
He says, I'll check upline.
Anybody need about 247 tapes?
It's funny, M&M and Tony want me - all of us - to get over the tools pyramid thing. My question to the new or potential IBO is this:
When is a liar not a liar?
Do you want to be in a business, a system, that will not only tolerate, but endorse lying? Are scruples, ethics, worth anything any more, or is it just that the concept of wealth through a program that "isn't illegal - yet" is too alluring. I'm not saying that all IBO's are guilty of the same deception that I (and so many others) experienced, but what do you make of the corporation over it all that would tolerate, even endorse such behaviour?
How do you get over that, pro-Quix people?
Posted by: Keith Sr. | June 29, 2005 8:26 AM