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June 8, 2005
Quixtar and Nic Ivy
By QBlog in Quixtar
Last week I received an email from a fellow named Nic Ivy who thought I might like to read about his experience with Quixtar over Memorial Day weekend.
» Quixtar: the truth can afford to be fair
In four sections I will describe my experience with Quixtar over Memorial Day weekend, my concerns with the business, how I identify a Quixtar representative, and links for further reading. I explain why I declined to be recruited and why you should also be careful.
After reading Ivy's tale I concluded that he's one shrewd dude. It's amazing that he's not an active participant in the ongoing Quixtar debate but has skillfully described some of the key issues facing Quixtar. Here are a few selected excerpts:
When you tell the truth, you don't care if someone investigates your claims because further research will only strengthen your position...
The salesman invited me to do my own "research", but he warned me against "bad research" like keyword searches on the Internet...
The marketing material largely ignores the retail aspect of the organization...
The social circle of a Quixtar or Amway representative quickly dwindles to include only other representatives...
Success is attributed to the organization, but failure is attributed to personal weakness...
That last excerpt is simply profound. Why haven't I thought of it like that before? It's neat how a fresh take on something can reveal things that were previously difficult to see.
Comments
Qblog,
I know you run an intelligent, informative blog and this was a fantastic post, don't get me wrong, but a few days ago you recieved an email that had the sentence, "Be thousands of curses be showered on YOU!!!" in it. I don't see why you're writing about anything else when that single sentence deserves an entire blog all to itself.
Wow! What a great site! Thanks for the info!
Heres something I dont understand: Some people seem noteably upset at the "curiosity" approach -- that is, not directly representing it (aka forcefeeding). Yet when they ask for information about it, they seem to be somehow offended that someone actually showed them the plan (20 minutes, tops)
An okay writeup I suppose, at least he outlines his reasoning instead of just saying "it sukcs"
Where do you get that accurate representation is forcefeeding?
Forcefeeding is not giving the other person the option of saying "no." How does the accurate representation of the company or the opportunity deny the prospect of that choice?
PW
How can these people be allowed to operate this way for so long? How can people not consder this a cult? It takes over lives. Convinces people to cast aside all people who are not like-minded? It illicits angry, irrational behavior when it is challenged. And best of all, the products are not a bargain! I checked! $100 at a mainline Los Angeles grocery store comes back $137 (for me) with Quickstar. And that's BEFORE any shipping costs.
What I have seen AmQuix promoters label the "curiosity approach" ceases to be the "curiosity approach" if deception is used to maintain curiosity.
For example: the person being solicited (or what IBOs euphemistically refer to as "shown the plan") asks the question "is this Amway/Quixtar?" The answer s often along the lines of "Oh, NO! We're part of the [insert name here] organiztion. AmQuix (if mentioned at all) is only one of our suppliers!".
That's deceptive. Hell, it's outright fraud. If someone thinks that acceptable, consider this: You ask a car salesperson how many miles are on a used car you see in the lot. "Oh, ultra-low!" How many miles is that? "It hardly has any miles on it at all!" EXACTLY HOW MANY MILES DOES IT HAVE?!?! "Uh. 113 thousand..." WHAT?!? I thought you said it had low miles? "Well, compared to a Mack truck, that's just broken in!"
Would you want the car salesperson do that to you? Of course not...
Mike
Another PERFECT example of someone not getting all the facts, and just making a decision based on PERCEPTION - and then blasting it with a biased & negative spin.
Like where he says "Amway and Quixtar are run by the same people. One of them ADMITTED this to me on the field." So he didn't just TELL you or INFORM you, he ADMITTED to you. Nice! Well let me tell you something else, I ADMIT that the owners of Quixtar also own the Orlando Magic, and a private island in the Virgin Islands. Its true I Admit it!
While I don't agree with them having a paintball outting that doubles as a meeting to "show the plan", I see no problem with them asking you if you're interested in making extra money and setting up an appointment to show the details in the correct environment. I don't know if they showed you the plan at the field, but that obviously wasn't a very experienced or successful IBO. You can exchange info, but you should be in the right setting to see the specifics of how it works.
Nic just because you had relatives in Amway, doesn't mean you know all you need to about Quixtar. There are some major differences, and if you're talking about the business of the 70's/80's - thats like comparing a '05 Mustang to a Model T!
Also, go ahead and read whatever you want, but consider the source! He's right! Anyone can write anything, and you don't know if theres any truth behind it. I could say I did research on Nic and it turns out he dropped out of HS and was convicted of armed robbery and spent 2 years in a mental institute. How dumb do you have to be to believe that just cause you saw it on some site??
If you're looking to buy a home are you gonna not choose a certain realtor because some message board was bashing it.
So maybe you might want to read some credible business reviews. No matter what Anyone says, it doesn't change the fact the Quixtar has the Highest Possible Rating with the Better Business Burea, and whether you like MLM, Network Marketing or not, the FTC deemed it legal and legitament back in 1979! Get over the hype, and learn something.
Nic> "In other words, Quixtar does not want you to believe anything bad said about them." Once again, more negative spin!!
Nic> " the marketing material largely ignores the retail aspect of the organization. Normally, a business must answer questions like "How is my product or service better than the competition's?"
Once again, presumptive and completely uninformed. Nic, Quixtar has PLENTY of materials for promoting the products. Brochures & catalogs with comparisons, product testimonies, quality guarantees, etc. but those are for presenting to customers!! They were offering you a change to own a business and were presenting from That pont of view. now if you said, no I'm not interested in building a business, but I may like some of the products", then would would talk to you as a Member/Client! Plenty of focus is put on retailing, but not when you're talking about being an IBO.
We do product of the week training, we have seminars on products. But if you want to build a residual business, you're going to also talk to people about the opportunity, not just get your grandma on some of the vitamins. People use products, the more people in your business, the more product is being moved, both personally and thru retail. Maybe you could go get 10 clients interested in using the vitamins or the protein bars. But your business is more profitable if you also find 10 people who are interested in building an extra income and now They also get 10 clients using those products! See the point in networking now? It doesn't mean neglect retail volume, but it means you'll be more profitable with a team developing also!
You know what, you critics really need to stop assuming that ALL IBO's have cut off there friends and family! It's plain stinking wrong!! "Don't hang around stinkin' thinkers" - thats good advice for Anyone in or Out of the business. No one should constantly hang out with negative people. What do you think will eventually happen to your perceptions.
When people attribute their success to the system, honestly its being humble, because it took hard work. But who's gonna get up there and say, "man, I am awesome, I started at zero and made it to Diamond in 4 years and I'm probably the best teacher in here cause I've got 2 guys that are Diamonds too!" Come on. The truth is people who make it DO just plug into the system. We'll introdcue the Platinums and above at our Open meeting and they range from people with GEDs to Masters & PhDs, 22 years old to 62 years old, etc. That tells me anyone can do this. Just learn from those who have done it.
Not everyone in this business Wants to build it to Diamond, do you understand that?? Some people just want an extra $500 bucks a month - Heck! some people just like the products and renew every year to get the IBO price and earn some $$ money back. Some have a few retail clients and make a little extra off that. So don't be critical of us of "what the average guy does". Less than 1% of people who ever take a Martial art get their 2nd degree blackbelt, but I did! It might not work for you, we don't make absolute promises!
Nic> "Representatives of Quixtar are adept at subterfuge and prefer not to be easily identified."
What is your problem? Seriously, can you even hear yourself. Dude get a grip. That is such BS! I think Quixtar is an awesome business. If someone asks me "is it Quixtar?", I'll say "yea, what do you know about Quixtar?" And if they say they've been to a meeting before, I simply inform them that there are MANY different teams affiliated with Quixtar, just like there are many different teams in the NFL. They may have heard something from a friend of a friend, but not all teams do the same thing! Network 21 is Completely differnet than BWW, even though they both use Quixtar as a supplier of goods and services. You don't say "I'm not interested in playing for the Patriots, cause I knew a guy who played for the Jets and they really sucked!" Well its the samething!
Also, Nic just because you know what PV/BV stands for doesn't mean you know ALL there is to know about this business. You might also have a little more credibility if you spelled XS Energy Drink like that, instead of Excess?? That's just a true statement.
You know... you said "I still played paint-ball with my friend and his 20 Quixtar business associates, and we had a great time. There are many great people in that group."
Do you think maybe there's more to it then just the hype you've heard? Do you think maybe they know something you don't. Maybe you should've hung around and gotten to know the rest of the group even better. Maybe you would see something different than subterfuge and deceipt. But I guess you'll never know.
Tony: ..."they (BWW and Network 21) both use Quixtar as a supplier of goods and services."
So, Tony, other than Quixtar, who are your other suppliers, and by this, I don't mean "Partner Stores," because they run thru the Quixtar end of things.
Tony: "No one should constantly hang out with negative people. What do you think will eventually happen to your perceptions."
Unfortunately, we can't all choose with whom we will work or interact. Some people will be "negative" (crabby, complainers, lazy, etc.) There are many ways to deal with them, but most people are, or need to learn to be, strong enough to take these people for what they are worth. I honestly don't give much attention to chronically negative people. Critically-thinking people, on the other hand, are a different story. They research things before making important decisions. They consider sources. They realize that the media is full of information, some good and trust worthy, and some not so good, but they still have skills at discerning the good from bad. That's what is being taught at the school where I am currently employed. We don't just want the kids to spit back information, we want them to analyze and apply what they've learned.
After a tough or stressful day at work, I might complain about life just 'cause I need to blow off some steam. Am I being negative? Heck, yeah. We all need to from time to time to keep our sanity. If I have to see the good in everything for fear of being labeled "negative," then I would go crazy. I'm saying this because I have IBO family members that really don't like "negative" people. I can't complain about ANYTHING in life without hearing some positive cliche or maxim. It's especially frustrating because I am considered a rather positive person by most people who know me.
Dear Tony,
Reading what you write here, I have to tell you, this all seems CRAZY. You say not ALL IBOs have cut off there[sic] friends"...so I guess that means some have. And I know one. That's what I am doing on this site. It's a FACT. It happens. I did nohing but be the person I've always been, and not a "stinkin thinkin" or whatever cliche these guys pound intoyour brain to keep you livin' the dream. Wake up man. Do you know how crazy your rant sounds???? I don't mean to be harsh, but this AmQuix crap is D-A-N-G-E-R-O-U-S! By the way, how much do you make a month? Nobody talks about it. I wonder why!!
TONY: "You know what, you critics really need to stop assuming that ALL IBO's have cut off there friends and family! It's plain stinking wrong!! "Don't hang around stinkin' thinkers" - thats good advice for Anyone in or Out of the business. No one should constantly hang out with negative people. What do you think will eventually happen to your perceptions."
Tony, I am not negative. I am just negative about this life-staeling, money-stealing cult/fraud.
Nick's sentiments get at the heart of why people who leave Quixtar have so much healing to do.
There's a double standard. Build people up and let the leaders tell you how terrible you are. You got to take it, too... because of the rule of passing negative upline only... the only person you can tell is the person telling you how awful you are.
Nic nic nic... we need more thoughtful people in the world like him.
Tony, I can't really believe what I just read. You're questioning the validity of the source of the poster's information and his accuracy. How incredibly ironic!
Many IBO's, and you specifically, make wild, unsubstantiated income claims, which you believe everyone should take at face value. That is absolutely the zenith of hypocrisy and irony.
And, to top it off, you emphasise my point by launching into the "Quixtar is my supplier" nonsense again. I releaize that you don't consider your distributot agreement to be worth the paper it is printed on, but it is a CONTRACT that YOU signed. Every day that you espouse this "supplier" nonsense is another day that you are perpetrating a fraud.
Mike
I found this ironic:
TONY>
Nic just because you had relatives in Amway, doesn't mean you know all you need to about Quixtar. There are some major differences, and if you're talking about the business of the 70's/80's - thats like comparing a '05 Mustang to a Model T!
...followed later by...
TONY>
So maybe you might want to read some credible business reviews. No matter what Anyone says, it doesn't change the fact the Quixtar has the Highest Possible Rating with the Better Business Burea, and whether you like MLM, Network Marketing or not, the FTC deemed it legal and legitament back in 1979!
Have you read the 1979 FTC decision and subsequent FTC decisions on MLM, Tony? In '79, Amway barely escaped because the line that was looked at was a very big retailing line. Otherwise, Amway would have been declared an illegal product pyramid scheme, much like several other MLM's have been declared since. The question is, how much are you retailing, Tony, and how much is your downline retailing?
Also, have you started to read Merchants of Deception yet, Tony? Again, it's free and in .htm form on Scott Larson's Amquix.info site. It's an excellent read, and even if you do not believe the author, I think you might see a lot of you in the book, Tony.
...and NO Tony, Selling to downline IBO's does not count as retail sales.
I'm a Quixtar IBO, Quixtar is not ONE of my suppliers, it is my ONLY supplier. If I buy LOC from Quixtar it comes from Quixtar, if I buy Omaha Steaks from Quixtar, it comes from Quixtar, if I buy a pair of Levi's jeans, they come from Quixtar...if it has PV and BV attached to it...It comes from Quixtar.
A Quixtar IBO's ONLY supplier is Quixtar, unless they are "in" something else.
I know an MLMer that has FIVE separate MLMs under one umbrella, if she is a Quixtar IBO too, then you could assume Quixtar is ONE of her suppliers.
I have heard that even Quixtar is getting tired of this statement.
Let me summarize. I am a Quixtar IBO, MY supplier is Quixtar, only Quixtar...luckily Quixtar has many vendors that supplies its IBOs with a variety of products, but in the end, they all come from Quixtar.
Tony,
I'll keep it short.
I justified my business way back when, just like you do. We all did.
The system gives you the ammunition to do this; you just use the ammunition.
Amway distributors said virtually the same things back in the 70's and 80's.
Some things never change.
Now I thought that Nic's post was quite eloquently put. There were no nasty names called. He also emphasised that the person who showed him the plan is still a friend.
I believe that all of the points made were valid ones. I particularly liked the point about further research. A company of noble standing would certainly have nothing to fear about you researching it - in fact quite the reverse.
If you go to a job interview with any company and you have not taken the time to research them, it's unlikely that you would get the job (notice no use of the acronym JOB - I'll have no passing of negative about the world of work, thank-you!)
Quixtar on the other hand seems to prefer that you do not research them.
The other point I liked was the final one about success being down to the system but failure being attributable to personal weakness.
I've heard this statement put in another way, and not just relating to Quixtar:
Success has many fathers. Failure is a bastard!
mike,
My business card says QUIXTAR at the top of it with the quixtar logo and is followed by Quixtar-affiliate Independent Business Owner. If the prospect wants to research the company on his own- so be it. I am a pro Q IBO and I do have qblog's site on my favorites list.
But as far as to say you know more about the business than I do because you read MOD and amquix.info- is a bit of a stretch.
I've checked out both sites myself thoroughly- and I find alot of it in these posts. It's just re hashed stuff that us IBO's heard too many times. Nobody has substantiated their claims at amquix.info or MOD, and btw a court case isn't substantial information.
If we are looking into the court cases, how many have been actually won in court against quixtar? No, settling out of court doesn't count and I already know what the excuses are going to be.
pure and simple, this business works for me, and the tapes books and functions are 100% optional in my opinion.
To set the record straight on the 1979 FTC case:
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/mlm/ftc/amway.htm
See bottom for the order section:
1) Amway is ordered to stop price fixing with many sub orders.
2) Amway is ordered to stop misrepresenting in any manner the past, present, or future profits, earnings, or sales from such participation, with many sub orders.
I thought this was interesting from the case:
FN15 In 1968, an Amway employee reported that retail prices on Amway products 'are in most instances appreciably higher than comparable items in conventional retail outlets.
It is still true today.
Hey guys, I'm new here. Been reading this site for a while. It was basically the final nail in the coffin to get some IBO off my back about joining "the business." LOL
In response to Tony:
Tony>Another PERFECT example of someone not getting all the facts, and just making a decision based on PERCEPTION - and then blasting it with a biased & negative spin.
Me>So how would you prefer this guy to make a decision on? RESEARCH perhaps?
Tony>Like where he says "Amway and Quixtar are run by the same people. One of them ADMITTED this to me on the field." So he didn't just TELL you or INFORM you, he ADMITTED to you. Nice! Well let me tell you something else, I ADMIT that the owners of Quixtar also own the Orlando Magic, and a private island in the Virgin Islands. Its true I Admit it!
Me>What's wrong with the word admit. Plus, since Quixtar has gone to great lengths to separate them from the name of Amway, admit would be a good word.
Tony>While I don't agree with them having a paintball outting that doubles as a meeting to "show the plan", I see no problem with them asking you if you're interested in making extra money and setting up an appointment to show the details in the correct environment. I don't know if they showed you the plan at the field, but that obviously wasn't a very experienced or successful IBO. You can exchange info, but you should be in the right setting to see the specifics of how it works.
Me>True statements here.
Tony>Nic just because you had relatives in Amway, doesn't mean you know all you need to about Quixtar. There are some major differences, and if you're talking about the business of the 70's/80's - thats like comparing a '05 Mustang to a Model T!
Me>Again Tony, would else would you like him to do? RESEARCH? Where should he research? Not the scary internet, just the bathroom walls of the web I guess.
Tony>Once again, presumptive and completely uninformed. Nic, Quixtar has PLENTY of materials for promoting the products. Brochures & catalogs with comparisons, product testimonies, quality guarantees, etc. but those are for presenting to customers!! They were offering you a change to own a business and were presenting from That pont of view. now if you said, no I'm not interested in building a business, but I may like some of the products", then would would talk to you as a Member/Client! Plenty of focus is put on retailing, but not when you're talking about being an IBO.
Me>Tony, If I'm going to be a salesman, I would want to know what I'm going to be selling. I don't want to sell something that could be a piece of junk. I don't want to sell something that people may be able to get somewhere else at a cheaper price. I would want to know how the products I am asked to sell compare to other products. I'd also like to do some RESEARCH outside of the company I work for.
Tony>We do product of the week training, we have seminars on products. But if you want to build a residual business, you're going to also talk to people about the opportunity, not just get your grandma on some of the vitamins. People use products, the more people in your business, the more product is being moved, both personally and thru retail. Maybe you could go get 10 clients interested in using the vitamins or the protein bars. But your business is more profitable if you also find 10 people who are interested in building an extra income and now They also get 10 clients using those products! See the point in networking now? It doesn't mean neglect retail volume, but it means you'll be more profitable with a team developing also!
Me>There's the problem with MLM's. To much attention on recruiting, not enough on retail.
Tony>You know what, you critics really need to stop assuming that ALL IBO's have cut off there friends and family! It's plain stinking wrong!! "Don't hang around stinkin' thinkers" - thats good advice for Anyone in or Out of the business. No one should constantly hang out with negative people. What do you think will eventually happen to your perceptions.
Me>No one is ever constantly positive. Plus, negativity also makes you question things, which is important to seeking the truth. You're more brainwashed than I thought Tony. I'm currently thinking about switching jobs. I've discussed this with my boss, but I'm not gonna take his word for it as the only reason to stay.
Tony>Not everyone in this business Wants to build it to Diamond, do you understand that?? Some people just want an extra $500 bucks a month - Heck! some people just like the products and renew every year to get the IBO price and earn some $$ money back. Some have a few retail clients and make a little extra off that. So don't be critical of us of "what the average guy does". Less than 1% of people who ever take a Martial art get their 2nd degree blackbelt, but I did! It might not work for you, we don't make absolute promises!
Me>No absolute promises? How often is the whole 2-5 year plan thrown around? All the time. Plus, why should I have to put 20 hours a week to make an extra $500 a month?
Tony>When people attribute their success to the system, honestly its being humble, because it took hard work. But who's gonna get up there and say, "man, I am awesome, I started at zero and made it to Diamond in 4 years and I'm probably the best teacher in here cause I've got 2 guys that are Diamonds too!" Come on.
Me>Hasn't it been firmly established that there's been no new Diamonds in Quixtar who weren't already in Amway?
Tony>And if they say they've been to a meeting before, I simply inform them that there are MANY different teams affiliated with Quixtar, just like there are many different teams in the NFL. They may have heard something from a friend of a friend, but not all teams do the same thing! Network 21 is Completely differnet than BWW, even though they both use Quixtar as a supplier of goods and services. You don't say "I'm not interested in playing for the Patriots, cause I knew a guy who played for the Jets and they really sucked!" Well its the samething!
Me>What if there's something wrong with the whole league? Or sports (MLM's) in general? Then what?
Tony>Also, Nic just because you know what PV/BV stands for doesn't mean you know ALL there is to know about this business. You might also have a little more credibility if you spelled XS Energy Drink like that, instead of Excess?? That's just a true statement.
Me>Oh man, Tony, you so got him there. OWNAGE!!!!!
Tony>Do you think maybe there's more to it then just the hype you've heard? Do you think maybe they know something you don't. Maybe you should've hung around and gotten to know the rest of the group even better. Maybe you would see something different than subterfuge and deceipt. But I guess you'll never know.
Me>Um, Tony, he just said that he still hangs with them.
Well, that's all I have. Great site you have here Qblog. I check it quite often, as it's very fun to read. Keep up the good work.
Fitz
Tony said: "If you're looking to buy a home are you gonna not choose a certain realtor because some message board was bashing it. "
Actually, yes. I'd read the message board to see exactly why they have a problem with that realtor. Then search some more and see if other people's opinion back this up.
The problem with opinion on the net is that people shout about something a) if they're upset by it or b) if they're selling it. It's hard to dig out a *genuine* c) they're actually pleased with it.
Tony > "There are some major differences, and if you're talking about the business of the 70's/80's - thats like comparing a '05 Mustang to a Model T!"
vm > I have heard this statement repeated a couple of times now. Could you please elaborate on this, Tony? Please explain the differences.
Tony > "There are some major differences, and if you're talking about the business of the 70's/80's - thats like comparing a '05 Mustang to a Model T!"
I've seen that a couple times now too, and I've always chuckled a little bit when I've seen it. I, being an automotive enthusiast, think a more realistic comparison would call Amway a 1957 Ford Edsel, and the new and improved Quixtar would be likened to the 1971 Ford Pinto. Both of these automobiles suck. But interestingly enough, both have a small "cult" following.
Tony:
I find it extremely intersesting that you speak in similies and anicdotes (Ford, NFL, etc.) about your business rather than speaking DIRECTLY about the way your business is truely structured.
Interesting in the fact that said comparisons don't match up with anything that AmQuix is doing.
In fact, I think it is a stretch for you to align your company with these brands in order to 'legitimize' what you are doing.
Pretty underhanded tactics, all in all....
Michael:
Michael>"pure and simple, this business works for me, and the tapes books and functions are 100% optional in my opinion."
1) I want to ask you. If the tapes and functions are optiongal, do you use the tapes, and/or attend the functions?
2) If this business workds for you...how much do you make and how many hours do you put in a week to make it?
Thanks!
Tony,
I'll do what I can to address your points, but my time is limited. So here goes:
My friend and his sales-helper "showed the plan" in a private meeting before the paintball outing by a Quixtar salesperson with a Masters in engineering. The guy was bright and persistent, and he used persuasive techniques.
While I admit that I was curious beforehand about the nature of my friend's business, I expected a normal conversation -- not a full-blown sales pitch. I was lured into a sales trap, a situation designed to exert pressure on the prospective client to cooperate. I admit that the techniques used were powerful, and if I had not already done some research I may have been persuaded. But when people are not expecting a sales pitch, they will probably resent the sudden pressure to cooperate.
I did not express to my friend an interest in joining Quixtar, so I assume that the default sales pitch is for recruitment, not retail. After all, as you mentioned, the most potential for profit comes from building a network of downlines. And with limited time and money, an IBO needs to pursue the most profitable opportunities -- i.e. recruitment.
So I think you and I are in agreement, Tony. The retail element is there, but most of the effort goes into recruitment.
From my experience and research, IBOs do not normally voluntarily tell prospective clients that the IBO works in a multi-level marketing business called Quixtar, a close relative of Amway. If you do, I applaud you. We need more forthright IBOs.
Thanks for pointing out the XS Energy Drink misspelling. I fixed it in the original article.
The second paragraph in my last post is confusing. It should say:
'My friend and his sales-helper "showed the plan" to me in a private meeting before the paintball outing. The Quixtar salesperson held a Masters in engineering. He was bright and persistent, and his sales techniques were strong.'
That doesn't change the intended meaning, but it should be easier to read!
Tony > "Quixtar has the Highest Possible Rating with the Better Business Burea"
vm > I have heard this statement a couple of times as well. Could you please elaborate on the rating system of the BBB?
I think you broke a golden rule there, Mark.
It's against protocol to ask how much people are making in Quixatr. It's just not done!
Quoting "Michael"
-------------------------
But as far as to say you know more about the business than I do because you read MOD and amquix.info- is a bit of a stretch.
--------------------------
I'm "Mike". Was that directed at me? Where did I write that? It isn't true - I know more than you for other reasons - but that couldn't have been directed at me...
Mike
mark,
I've told my story here in the message boards and forum before. I am at approximately 5000pv monthly and I run my business about 15-20 hrs a week if my full time job doesnt interfere.
As to your questions about the tapes and functions, no I don't attend functions at the present time and very seldom do I listen to a CD anymore. Unless its one of my favorite mentors like brad duncan or dean kosage. Very seldom do I "recommend" a function unless I am going to attend. The last function I attended was FED 2003.
The only 'tool' I use on a daily business is communikate to keep in touch with my upline Diamond and for personal and business emails and to hold conference calls to STP.
Michael, which group are you in? If you were in BWW, you are NOT CORE.
Mikebot>"I am at approximately 5000pv monthly and I run my business about 15-20 hrs a week.."
Mikebot, do you care to translate that into US Dollars, for those of us not in the pyramid, er, I mean business.
What does that net you in PROFIT per month??? You have to back out your expenses (tapes, gas, babysitter, etc) to derive your profit from your revenue.
What exactly is the dollar value of 5,000 pv? It would help those of us who don't understand the $$vlue of pv.
BTW, Michael, from what I see, you seem to run your AQ truly as a business and not a self-help, pseudo-Christian ministry, support group. Correct me if I'm wrong but are the following statements true about you?
You rarely use the tools. (No SOT, BOM, etc)
You do not push tools on your downline.
You explain the tools aspect of the business and its profit potential.
You do not consider AQ to be your form of Christian ministry, nor do you feel that God is calling you to earn more money so that you can eventually give it all back to Him.
When people run their business according to these statements, I can almost say I have absolutely NO problem with AQ as a business.
I collected from Quixtar's "The Independent Business Ownership Plan" as of October 11, 2004, the following bits of information. This worksheet was given to me when I was "shown the plan". I see no disclaimers, so to my knowledge I may reproduce portions of the "plan" here.
We'll start with a formula for calculating monthly gross income, move to the performance bonus schedule, and then apply the formula (with some approximations) to the example kindly provided by Michael.
-----
monthly gross income =
retail markup * personal business volume
+ performance bonus * group business volume
- performance bonus * downlines' business volume
average retail markup = 0.32
average business volume = 2.8 * monthly point value
-----
Performance Bonus Schedule
Monthly PV ; Monthly BV ; Performance Bonus
7500+ ; $21000+ ; 25%
6000 ; $16800 ; 23%
4000 ; $11200 ; 21%
2500 ; $7000 ; 18%
1500 ; $4200 ; 15%
1000 ; $2800 ; 12%
600 ; $1680 ; 9%
300 ; $840 ; 6%
100 ; $280 ; 3%
-----
Michael mentioned that his monthly point value is 5000, which means his monthly business volume is near $14,000.
What we don't know, however, is how much Michael's downlines perform. So we'll approximate, using 6 downlines who average a monthly point value of 600 each, which implies $1680 monthly business volume each. All together, Michael's downlines produce a monthly p.v. of 3600 and a b.v. of $10080. Personally, Michael then produces a p.v. of 1400 per month, a b.v. of $3920.
Continuing with this approximation, Michael's monthly gross income is:
0.32 * $3920 + .21 * $14000 - 6 * .09 * $1680 = $3287.20
If Michael maintains this performance level for 12 months, his annual gross income is then $39,446.40 -- not including one-time bonuses for moving up the pyramid or the value of vacations offered.
We still don't know Michael's expenses, so we cannot estimate the net profit. If we guess that 25% of the gross income goes to cover expenses, Michael takes home $29,584.80. But that's only a guess.
It is worth looking at the disclaimer on the same worksheet. I'll paraphrase: 'Of all "active" IBOs, 0.45% earn a monthly performance volume of at least 7500 for 1 month out of a year. The average monthly income for an "active" IBO is $115, or $1320 per year.'
So Michael -- earning about $40,000 per year with a p.v. of roughly 5000 and 6 downlines with a p.v. of 600 each -- is in the upper echelons of the pyramid. Most IBOs can expect to earn $1320 per year.
Imran,
Yeah I ain't CORE. But do I care? NO. My LOS doesn't write my bonus checks-quixtar does. I am WWDB. While I do respect my upline and appreciate him to help me out- my business is my business. As I've said before- if the tools part isn't congruent with your current goals-and you feel your motivated enough. That's ok with me.
inquiring mind- THATs exactly what I've been trying to tell you people from day one about me. I am not like those you consider "brainwashed" by the masses. I run my business like a business. I break down the numbers of what it takes to become platinum. Also, I personally feel very uncomfortable when the kingpins start the religious crap everytime some event of mother nature happens. Well I tell them, hey sh*t happens- get over it. But its not a reason to quit the business. The only reason to quit the business is if my personal goals- not my uplines- isn't congruent with the compensation plan. Thats all it should be.
DF- I thought you knew everything there was to know about quixtar- however I'll explain it as simply as I can for you. PV is Performance Bonus. It's the same performance bonsu structure that was set up by the Amway corporation. In layman's terms you should be earning roughly $1000US per every 4000PV.
njivy,
You also haven't explained to people that people in my downline CAN pass my income level anytime they want. Therefore- not declaring it a pyramid.
njivy, Also I won't give out the specifics of my personal business because this topic isn't going to get personal.
Michael,
I'm not asking you to divulge personal information. The critical questions asked by other people cannot be answered without more data, and I was trying to make that clear.
Mikebot:
Thanks for you answer, or, well...your half answer. Still, it is better than what most of your counterparts will divulge.
But you'll have to make the conversions and carry the 1s for me.
At your "level", (pv, bv, bs, whatever) how many US dollars do you make a year on this thing?
There should be a Schedule C from 2004. Just give me that number if you don't want to do the long math.
Then subtract out your monthly expenses ( I think a lot of those are on your tax return forms as well).
Thanks,
df
Sorry guys, I've been too busy at work to reply to each argument, but I'll hit some now:
Who are my other suppliers? When did i say I had more than one? i said "Network 21 is Completely differnet than BWW, even though they both use Quixtar as a supplier of goods and services." Not "they both use Quixtar as ONE OF MANY suppliers"! So did you misread what I wrote, or are you trying to twist things Again?
But I'll play devils advocate. Let's say someone implies Quixtar is just one supplier. My business is more than sales. So in that sense one could say BWW is a supplier since thats where I get my business building materials.
And make valid arguments! "You can't control who you work with" Dude thats weak! I'm not talking about co-workers! I'm talking about people in general. Don't hang around negative people, unless you want to be more like them. Of course you can't control who's in the cubicle next to you!
Yea Mark, some IBOs might limit the time they hang around certain friends and family, if they're negative!! Most of my friends are generally positive people. And some aren't interested in the business, but we just don't talk much about it when were together. They might ask how its going and I'll say its going good. But if I had a friend saying "you still doing that illegal pyramid thing?"- i'm probably not gonna visit him too much. Cause I try not to hang around morons too often. Sorry you have the wrong perception of this business.
imanewe> There's a double standard. Build people up and let the leaders tell you how terrible you are.
What are you talking about??? No one told me "how terrible I am". How can you just spout out such BS. Give a name! The guy who told YOU that you were terrbile. Cause I've never heard anyone's upline do that! Stop making it sound like ALL upline are like that. Its gd deceptive!
Mike> Every day that you espouse this "supplier" nonsense is another day that you are perpetrating a fraud.
Hi, my name is Tony and I'm an Independant Business Owner - Quixtar is my supplier. If I want to sell someone a protein bar or an energy drink or a pair of Levi's - I get it thru Quixtar. that's all - I will not argue with stupidity.
dmm, I retail enough to get credit for my downlines volume, which is either 50pv, $100 to M/C, or 10 seperate M/C orders. When I get a few more bars carrying XS, I'll be retailing a lot more.
Buzzard> Quixtar on the other hand seems to prefer that you do not research them.
Wrong! Valid research is great! There's a difference. The guy who just gets on a blogsite and reads that someone's upline stole his dog, did not do valid research!
Fitz> What's wrong with the word admit. Plus, since Quixtar has gone to great lengths to separate them from the name of Amway, admit would be a good word.
Great lengths huh? How did you deduce that? Was it the link to Amway on the FRONTPAGE of Quixtar.com. Does that have to be there? Noooo. Some great length! Or maybe it was the fact they adress the question on IBOfacts.com. Get your facts straight buddy instead of just buying into all the negative hype!!
Fitz> I would want to know how the products I am asked to sell compare to other products. I'd also like to do some RESEARCH outside of the company I work for.
Go ahead and do that Fitz. Check out the quality of Nutrilite, eSpring, etc. But I don't see you actually doing any Real research. Its just so much easier to read what you find on a blogsite.
F>There's the problem with MLM's. To much attention on recruiting, not enough on retail.
And which one were you in again? How long were you involved? Or are you just repeating what you heard someone Else say, to sound intelligent. Thats why the word critbot is sooo appropriate.
F> Plus, negativity also makes you question things, which is important to seeking the truth.
Negativity is looking at a situation and only seeing the problems! Being positive, is looking at the situation and seeing a challenge or an opportunity to improve something! You need to read more, that will help you "seek the truth." - ??
F> No absolute promises? How often is the whole 2-5 year plan thrown around? All the time. Plus, why should I have to put 20 hours a week to make an extra $500 a month?
Dude you need help! The 2-5 year plan is just that - A PLAN!!! Not a guarantee! And it don't start when you register - it starts when you start actually doing consistent work! 20 hours?? The people looking to just make an extra few hundred and probably doing less than 5 a week! 20 hours a week means you're looking to be serious with this and make more than $500/month.
F> Um, Tony, he just said that he still hangs with them.
Nooo, he said he's still friends with his 1 friend! Not: he still hangs with all of them! There you go again. Spinning sh!t to make your point look better! You are WRONG!
Chris> Actually, yes. I'd read the message board to see exactly why they have a problem with that realtor. Then search some more and see if other people's opinion back this up.
But people don' t do that Chris. Some people just look on the net and get nothing but opinion. If you were looking for info on the realtor you should talk to a realtors association or the BBB, not some frickin blogsite! Come on!
vm, Amway didn't have partner stores, when it started it was just soap. It cracksme up when critbots say "have fun selling soap online" Uh thanks,it's a little bit more than that now. Also, you had to pick your products from an uplines house, now its shipped right to your door. Checks had to be passed down from your upline, then you had to cut checks to downline, etc. - you had to fill out forms. Now its all online, checks come directly from Quixtar.
df> I find it extremely intersesting that you speak in similies and anicdotes (Ford, NFL, etc.) about your business rather than speaking DIRECTLY about the way your business is truely structured. [what are you talking about?? its called ANALOGY]
Interesting in the fact that said comparisons don't match up with anything that AmQuix is doing. [you mean we don't sell cars or play fotball??]
In fact, I think it is a stretch for you to align your company with these brands in order to 'legitimize' what you are doing.
Pretty underhanded tactics, all in all... [you got to be kidding me! I don't have to legitamize anything! We're have Partner Stores like Circuit City, IBM, B&N and DISNEY! That, and the BBB/FTC legitamizes us more than enough!
Yea, vm, Quixtar has a "Satisfactoy" rating with the BBB - the highest possible rating. Like if a restaurant has a rating of 4, and that's out of a possible 4, they'd say they have the highest possible rating.
Hey keep up the good work Mike! I don't care if you're on SOT either, if you can go Platinum without any tools thats great. I wasn't listening to any CD's for a long time, but I personally found a few that I liked and I listen to those the most. And personally I like the fuctions! I think you can learn alot! Especially After the functions, when you get around some of the "up and comers" and just ask them questions.
Considering what some people pay for seminars, conferences and workshops, I think $90 - 100 bucks is well worth it, but only if you're getting something out of it.
The problem with this type of business that with such a low startup cost, basically Anyone can sign-up, and as we see here, just not Anyone has the mentality to be a business owner! Thats why most people are employees. And thats OK!, but when a bunch of "employees" try a shot at being an "owner" and it doesn't work out, you're bound to have a bunch of them b!tching and blaming the business instead of just saying it didn't work for me, which is what the mature ones do. I've had people drop out of my team. None of them are bitter or angry. I'm still friends with all of them, at least the ones I knew before the business.
Tony
If a spouse did not support their partner in Quixtar, therefore being "negative", should the spouse choose the "dream" or choose their spouse?
Before you answer, recall what your idol Bill Britt has said on the issue.
DF,
Like I said- I ain't going to devulge any personal information in this message board.
Michael > Like I said- I ain't going to devulge any personal information in this message board.
Translation: I am afraid to look into my schedule C and look at all the loses the I incurred in this Cult!!! But I can run my mouth about how wonderful this business is!!!
Mike>The problem with this type of business that with such a low startup cost, basically Anyone can sign-up, and as we see here, just not Anyone has the mentality to be a business owner! Thats why most people are employees. And thats OK!, but when a bunch of "employees" try a shot at being an "owner" and it doesn't work out, you're bound to have a bunch of them b!tching and blaming the business instead of just saying it didn't work for me, which is what the mature ones do.
Mike, up until the last paragraph, I was pretty much with you. In fact, were I to get back into the business (highly doubtful), I think that I would run it very much like you do. You seem to at least understand that there is the potential for the abuses we have described, albeit in other LOS's.
On a whole, that is MY complaint with the company - the fact that the abuse is tacitly allowed (albeit in other LOS's)
Here's the thing - I'm not an employee, I'm a business owner. Several businesses. I'm probably the least likely of poeple out there to be accused of having an "employee mentality", at least by those who know me.
Yet I still quit. And I will continue to bash the business for the abuses. They're not imagined, they are substantiated (albeit they don't exist in your LOS).
Possibly, even though you haven't experienced the abuses, they actually do exist. And their continued promulgation at the hands of the big pins makes the corporation itself at very least guilty of poor corporate judgement.
Hence the continued bashing.
Do you understand the logic? I'm not saying that you have to agree with it, but do you at least understand?
Crap.
...of poeple out there to be accused...
The correct spelling is "people"
I HATE that :-)
Hey Tony. Thanks for your response. People rarely respond to my posts!
I was prospected by good old Amway back in 1999. I had never even heard of them at the time. I got shown the plan and was initially quite impressed - I even went to three open meetings, and listened to a few tapes.
It was after going on the internet, that I found out the true source of the diamonds' income - namely the 'tools'. This also meant that my would-be sponsor had withheld information from me.
Was this research of mine valid research or invalid? My submission is that it was valid.
After showing me the plan, my would-be sponsor told me "Not to believe what was on the internet". Therefore I still stand by my comment that Quixtar (or Amway) prefer you not to research them independently.
After finding out the truth, I contacted my would-be sponsor and told him I was not going to take part in Amway. I didn't even give a reason. I wanted to say that I felt terribly deceived, but decided that there wasn't much point.
Mikebot isn't going to divulge 'personal' information, but he is going to show his 5000 in monthly pv.
Isn't that considered 'personal information'?
I think that Mikebot only wants to show one side of the story -- the revenue side. But he is not willing to show all of the story -- the net profit (or loss) side.
Interesting....
Well, not really interesting as it is predictable.....
Keith,
Thanks for your honest response. I completely understand your point of view. I am not disagreeing with you that there have been and are abuses of the system. I ain't niave. All I am saying is that I focus on my goals- not anybody elses goals. Like David has stated and so has my mentor that the things you think about the most will manifest in your life. I think about and work at having a strong, positive, honest, ethical business model that everyone in my group should strive for. I never read anywhere on quixtar.com itself about abusing the business to get ahead.Trust me, if I felt this wasn't a doable business model I would have quit long time before I ever started. I've been in several businesses myself before I looked to quixtar(amway). Honestly, I've been in several other MLM companys before I found quixtar.
I sponsored quixtar- Nobody ever approached me about this opportunity.
I did the "research" about the business. I looked at amquix.info, qblog, and others and I told myself that my business will not be run in that fashion. It's a thing of the past and I am making it change.
That's why I believe the quixtar bashing is both helpful and futile. It holds the company to a higher standard to make the changes. It's also futle because the quixtar critics will end up shooting themselves in the foot. They will blog about the company so much that quixtar will be forced to make changes only making it a better opportunity, not get people to quit and join passport.
Michael wrote:
"All I am saying is that I focus on my goals- not anybody elses goals."
This sounds like it contradicts the message that the Q business leaders always like to preach about - that if you help your downline achieve their goals, then you automatically achieve yours.
"I did the "research" about the business. I looked at amquix.info, qblog, and others and I told myself that my business will not be run in that fashion. It's a thing of the past and I am making it change."
I applaud your efforts here, Michael. But answer me one question. If Bo Short and Eric Scheibeler, who were a former diamond and emerald respectively in the amway/quixtar business, couldn't make any lasting changes for the better, what makes you think that you can?
"That's why I believe the quixtar bashing is both helpful and futile. It holds the company to a higher standard to make the changes. It's also futle because the quixtar critics will end up shooting themselves in the foot. They will blog about the company so much that quixtar will be forced to make changes only making it a better opportunity, not get people to quit and join passport."
And that's exactly what our aim is, Michael; to make sure that the people who join quixtar are getting a fair deal, not to tear quixtar apart just for the fun of it.
If what we're doing here motivates quixtar to make changes for the better, which in turn attracts more people to join that business opportunity, then it's all for the best.
df,
I think the information you want is already available. As I quoted earlier from the Independent Business Owners Plan, the average monthly income for an "active" IBO during 2001 was $115 -- that's a yearly income of $1320.
In the whole scheme of things, $115 per month is very close to zero. Since the average is so close to zero, it basically says that about half the "active" IBOs lose money. Some IBOs claim to make lots of money, so someone must on the other end pulling the average down.
In other words, the odds are decent that an IBO will not make any money. And the odds of an IBO making a high wage are downright low -- 99.5% chance of taking home less than $37,200 per year.
Tony wrote:
"Who are my other suppliers? When did i say I had more than one? i said "Network 21 is Completely differnet than BWW, even though they both use Quixtar as a supplier of goods and services." Not "they both use Quixtar as ONE OF MANY suppliers"! So did you misread what I wrote, or are you trying to twist things Again?
But I'll play devils advocate. Let's say someone implies Quixtar is just one supplier. My business is more than sales. So in that sense one could say BWW is a supplier since thats where I get my business building materials.
And make valid arguments! "You can't control who you work with" Dude thats weak! I'm not talking about co-workers! I'm talking about people in general. Don't hang around negative people, unless you want to be more like them. Of course you can't control who's in the cubicle next to you!"
Two excellent points that you make here, Tony:
1) Quixtar is the sole supplier in that business opportunity; where the other companies that they deal with are vendors whom they purchase from, where Q turns around to sell those other companies' products to the IBOs.
2) In the quixtar business opportunity, an IBO can definitely get to choose who they work with, despite the limitations that corporation places upon them as to how they can go about meeting & sponsoring new recruits.
"imanewe> There's a double standard. Build people up and let the leaders tell you how terrible you are.
What are you talking about??? No one told me "how terrible I am". How can you just spout out such BS. Give a name! The guy who told YOU that you were terrbile. Cause I've never heard anyone's upline do that! Stop making it sound like ALL upline are like that. Its gd deceptive!"
As long as you the IBO are blindly investing into the MO system and lining the kingpins' pockets, then yes, you are correct Tony. These so called "leaders" will always build you up and tell you how wonderful you are.
However, as soon as you quit the quixtar business, or no longer "come around" and pay homage to the system by constantly pouring money into it, then the big pins will call you a broke loser behind your back who will never go anywhere in life.
"dmm, I retail enough to get credit for my downlines volume, which is either 50pv, $100 to M/C, or 10 seperate M/C orders. When I get a few more bars carrying XS, I'll be retailing a lot more."
The question isn't how much you are retailing, it's whether or not you are focusing on the retailing effort itself as opposed to sponsoring, and not making the quixtar business a wholesale "buy from yourself" pyramid scheme.
"Buzzard> Quixtar on the other hand seems to prefer that you do not research them.
Wrong! Valid research is great! There's a difference. The guy who just gets on a blogsite and reads that someone's upline stole his dog, did not do valid research!"
Then what do you propose as valid, independent research sources, Tony? The Better Business Bureau? The attorneys general from various states? The Department of Consumer Affairs? Each has many complaints lodged against them regarding the quixtar business.
Are you now going to claim that these sources are now just as irreputable as the internet, which quixtar is also a major player in?
"Fitz> What's wrong with the word admit. Plus, since Quixtar has gone to great lengths to separate them from the name of Amway, admit would be a good word.
Great lengths huh? How did you deduce that? Was it the link to Amway on the FRONTPAGE of Quixtar.com." Does that have to be there? Noooo. Some great length!"
STOP RIGHT THERE, TONY. Just because a website has a link to another website does not mean that the former is in any way trying to imply that they are connected with that company, or are not trying to be dissassociated with that organization. They are just trying to directly connect to another source of information in the same area or subject that they themselves are involved in.
For example: Last year there was an active website called qrush.com that totally attacked everybody and everything that criticized the quixtar business. Despite the fact that the creator of that website even went so far as to criticize the administrator of this site, QBlog, by calling him names and constantly ridiculing him, QBlog still linked to his site because it dealt with the same topic area that QBlog himself was and is still involved with - the quixtar business opportunity.
"Or maybe it was the fact they adress the question on IBOfacts.com. Get your facts straight buddy instead of just buying into all the negative hype!!"
Okay Tony, lets indeed take a look at what ibofacts.com had to say regarding this matter:
Question #20
Aren't Amway and Quixtar really the same?
No. Quixtar and Amway are sister companies and subsidiaries of their parent company, Alticor Inc., a global enterprise doing business in manufacturing, marketing, logistics, and product and business development. Quixtar is a North American Web-based business, and Amway is a traditional direct sales opportunity that is global in scope.
See that Tony, even ibofacts.com is lying through their teeth in order to try to convey the false notion that amway and quixtar are not the same company, when in fact they really are.
Amway Corporation is the direct sales parent company to Amway North America, Amway Acia-Pacific, Amway Greece, Amway Austria, Amway Ireland, Amway Italy, Amway France etc.
Every division of Amway across the globe has remained the same with the exception of Amway North America, which became Amway's only online division where it was renamed Quixtar Inc.
"F>There's the problem with MLM's. To much attention on recruiting, not enough on retail.
And which one were you in again? How long were you involved? Or are you just repeating what you heard someone Else say, to sound intelligent. Thats why the word critbot is sooo appropriate."
No Tony, that's a pure fact. MLMs today rely primarily on recruiting others into the business opportunity, where everybody is trying to make money off of everybody else in a false pyramidal money making scheme, which is illegal and a scamful business for the simple common sense reason that the consumers in the business model are all trying to partake in the profit making of the distribution system.
"F> Plus, negativity also makes you question things, which is important to seeking the truth.
Negativity is looking at a situation and only seeing the problems! Being positive, is looking at the situation and seeing a challenge or an opportunity to improve something! You need to read more, that will help you "seek the truth." - ??"
You are correct with your assertions here Tony, but you are mistaking the two terms "being negative" and "being critical".
One has to first be critical when examining a particular business opportunity or endeavor that they want to get themselves involved with, in order to form a basis in making the ultimate decision as to whether or not they want to go ahead and proceed with their involvement. Once they have ascertained all of the facts in order to make that decision, they then have the appropriate amount of information where they can form a positive or negative judgment on that which they fully examined.
"F> No absolute promises? How often is the whole 2-5 year plan thrown around? All the time. Plus, why should I have to put 20 hours a week to make an extra $500 a month?
Dude you need help! The 2-5 year plan is just that - A PLAN!!! Not a guarantee! And it don't start when you register - it starts when you start actually doing consistent work! 20 hours?? The people looking to just make an extra few hundred and probably doing less than 5 a week! 20 hours a week means you're looking to be serious with this and make more than $500/month."
WRONG TONY. The 2 to 5 year plan is promoted as being an ironclad guarantee for those IBOs that are fully committed to the system and are putting in 15 - 20 hours per week, while showing a minimum of 20 plans per month.
I have heard this mentioned hundreds of times during my attendance at open meetings during my 6 year stint in the amquix business. So don't even try to dispute this one with me.
"The problem with this type of business that with such a low startup cost, basically Anyone can sign-up, and as we see here, just not Anyone has the mentality to be a business owner! Thats why most people are employees. And thats OK!,"
Tony, you're right on with your analysis on this particular set of remarks of yours. However, this has nothing to do with why people are failing at quixtar, because the quixtar opportunity is, in and of itself, not a legitimate business opportunity, but a money making pyramid game of chance.
The people are bitching not because they "don't have what it takes", but because they've been misled, lied to and scammed by the greedy few at the top of the amquix empire.
Really stupid question perhaps, but I am new here so forgive me. What if "PV"? Thanks for the response to my questions, Tony. They were sincere.
OK Sorry guys, my previous post was answered. Lame, I know.
Anyway, why is it so hard to just be straight about the numbers? Why do we have to convert PV etc? And why do you say "should be" below. I mean is it, or isn't it? I am asking you. You seem to have a good outlook which makes me wonder why you remain in this business at all. Surely you could achieve your personal goals by putting those extra hours into a job or a personal business that you run by your own rules.
MICHAEL >"In layman's terms you should be earning roughly $1000US per every 4000PV."
And as for being a pyramid....who cares? What I care about is that every single person that I personally know in this thing gets their minds bent and their wallets emptied. And when I read your comments, Tony and Michael, I feeli as though I am reading the words of any number of loved ones that I know that have fallen into this "business."
Mark,
Did you not read my responses? I DO run my business independently. Also, this business is far more cheaper than any traditional business to run.
As far as JOBs go- they SUCK. I should know I have one and its running most of my life right now. I barely have enough time to sleep and show the plan a few times a week.
If you knew anything about the business you'd know what PV is and how to convert it. Isn't it explained over at amquix.info or MOD? Also quixtar does have an income calculator on their website.
MLMscam,
As far as your answers to 'If Bo Short and Eric Scheibeler, who were a former diamond and emerald respectively in the amway/quixtar business, couldn't make any lasting changes for the better, what makes you think that you can?'
I have made lasting changes in the business and with the new technologies on the internet its really not that difficult to do. The problems with Bo short and Eric S, is that they micro managed. Micro managing is a thing of the past, so is the tools business. This day and age people don't have the time to sit and listen to tapes, go to functions or even read books. MP3's and communities online are changing that.
My main focus is to get people to 7500PV within 12 months or less. I have a plan to do that and I will acheive that. If somebody wants information about the business they go to our website and can download the information if they want to.
Honestly if you passport guys can think you can change my mind about the business- your efforts are futile.
Mikebot:
If your J-O-B is so terrible, why don't you just quit?? You could show the plan ALL the time! Awesome!!!
What's that? Oh, that job is what is keeping you afloat while you are hemorraging cash for tapes and seminars.
That's right, shut up before the hand that feeds you slaps you in the face.
DF,
I never said my job was terrible. I also don't want to show the plans 5 days a week. Quit putting words in my mouth.
what I said was-As far as JOBs go- they SUCK. I should know I have one and its running most of my life right now. That doesnt mean my employment is terrible, or people should quit their line of work in order to make it in this business. Its just that I've been putting in alot of OT lately thats all. I never recommend people quit their jobs or anything else. Most people don't want to do this business full time and they don't. This business can work around anyones schedule.
Df, if you feel empowered at your job- I am happy for you. Truth is apporximately 75% of people out there don't like what they do for a living.
Besides, if you said you were done posting in here because the quixtar guys were gone, they must still be employed there. As always your posts are entertaining.
Interesting comment of Michael's to say that jobs "suck". That's one thing I noticed about some of the tapes that I listened to when being prospected about this. Many of them inferred that the employment is futile because you're always broke. If you earn more money, you're broke at a higher level. I think that this 'doom and gloom' strategy is simply a subterfuge to suck you in.
And as for 75% of people not enjoying what they do for a living. I don't know where that statistic came from. What I do know is that 75% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Michael,
I'm not going to put any words in your mouth, but I'd like to know just one thing.
Can you tell me the source of the statistic you just threw out to us? You know, the one about 75% of the people out there not liking what they're doing for a living?
Did you get it from Quixtar? Your upline? Maybe a seminar or tape? Or perhaps the internet even? Just curious. I mean you must have gotten this stat from a pretty reputable source since you state it as truth right?
BTW, I have the best job in the world as far as I'm concerned. I've never felt more empowered. I guess I'm in the minority.
Thanks.
So what is your personal goal? When do you think you might achieve it?
FYI, I am happy to share this info about myself, and my income etc, if anyone cares. I am a true entrpreneur.
Jason:
I am with you, I love what I am doing.
I am also with you in the fact that I too want to know where Mikebot got his 75% statistic. It is amazing how tapetalk becomes fact once it gets filtered by the brainwashed masses..........
Jason & df:
I don't think that the issue here is whether or not that 75% statistic is legitimate or not - chances are it is. Instead, one has to decipher the fact that this is just another case of the smoke & mirrors tactics that the IBO Bots love to use against their unsuspecting audiences.
So let's assume that 75% figure is true. So what does that really prove? That this percentage of the population is forever stuck in the respective jobs that they currently have? Of course not! Hey, many people currently don't like what they're doing for a living, but what they then do is......you guessed it! THEY LOOK FOR ANOTHER JOB!!! - one that's in a field that is more suitable to their interests and experiences versus what they currently have.
Either that, or they obtain additional education in order to obtain higher statused jobs with better pay - when they reach a position where those individuals are now in the totally satisified 25% category who currently like what they do for a living.
mlmscam:
I think you have a vailid point in the fact that a lot of people are not satisfied with their jobs (or themselves, as a job is a function of self).
This is why monster.com and so many recruiting sites are so popular.
Which is the same reason why those makeover shows (house, face, wardrobe) are so popular.
This is an interesting topic for another time...
But, I am still calling Mikebot out on his stat. For all I can tell, this is another unsubstantiated ambot claim.
All too often these bots are spewing incorrect data in order to sway others into the ambot way of thinking.
I respect Micheal for his business strategy. I will say that he is in the VAST MINORITY of the people in A/Q. If everyone ran the business as he did, it would be just another thing not worthy of all our time in talking about, but as such, it is not. Micheal, you are speaking what you do and it is how this thing should be run. No 'ministry', no pushing tapes or functions, I'm sure you are even honest! The fact is that most of the system is not. As a whole, the system teaches to be core, you are doing the right thing by NOT being core (hence, you don't seem to rant the annoying tapespeak as many pro-A/Q people here), but for the 'average' person who wants to make this thing work, they are instructed to go CORE. I was in BWW, not WWDB, The nine core steps were:
1. Listen to 1 or more tape per day, be on SOT (Standing order tape)
2. Read at least one book per month, be on BOM (Book of the month, offered through upline)
3. Attend ALL functions, meetings, etc that you are qualified to attend
4. Be accountable to your mentor (i.e. do what he says and accept his teaching without question)
5. Be Teachable (Which is defined in BWW as don't question anyone upline)
6. Use the products
7. Show the plan (STP) at least five nights per week
8. Develope Members and clients (though this one is a caution, Dave Severn in the tape Width, Depth, Momentum' teaches to not have too many or they will keep you from building the network where profit is; there are tapes on the other end, however, teaching to build a lot. Which one is truth? I don't know)
9. Be on Communikate.
You can see why we have a problem with this system.
X
X:
Maybe you haven't been here long enough, but Mikebot is far from reputable. Dude has made unsubstanciated income claims and unsubstanciated statistics in order to bolster his business.
I wouldn't "laud" him just yet....
X:
Maybe you haven't been here long enough, but Mikebot is far from reputable. Dude has made unsubstanciated income claims and unsubstanciated statistics in order to promote his business.
Promoting his business model under false and/or unsubstanciated pretense is not exactly ethical in my book.
I wouldn't "laud" Mikebot. David Robinson is the closest thing yet....
I am refering to the one who posts as 'Micheal', I believe I read some material from a 'Mike' that I did not agree with. I have been on these boards about a month, maybe longer, I just respond to what I read, I don't try to go a whole lot deeper. This person claimed to not have attended a function in a while, only listens to tapes rarely if at all, but is at 5000PV and going well. Perhaps there is something I DON'T know about him? In that case, I am wrong. He seems to not have disclosed 'Income' as it were, but PV at 5000. I know that he could be making anywhere from $50 a month to $2000 a month on that, so if I don't see a net dollar amount, I don't care. Your PV claims don't impress me unless you give me your structure as well. I know the PBS inside and out, I'll be able to tell your income.
I there something else I should know about Micheal? And I still don't give him praise, I am against the fundamental ideal if MLM's, but ridding of the systems would be a step in the right direction since it minimizes losses.
X
Thanks for taking the time for responding, Tony.
You Said > "Quixtar has a 'Satisfactoy' rating with the BBB - the highest possible rating. Like if a restaurant has a rating of 4, and that's out of a possible 4, they'd say they have the highest possible rating."
Actually you are not quite correct. The BBB that is local to the Alticor headquarters does not appear to rate companies (although some BBB's do provide a rating scale). The actually quote from www.grandrapids.bbb.org is : "Based on BBB files, this company has a satisfactory record with the Bureau." There is nothing about a rating for Quixtar in the report.
oops..
The actually quote
Should obviously read "The actual quote"
1st, Jonas Dad - which do you choose? You choose both! Whoever said it was 1 or the other? If I had a wife that was unsupportive, thats fine, I just build it without her, and if she's really unsupportive, then I tell her, "and when the money starts coming in, you're not gonna get any of it." But with the people I'm hooked up with (my LOS) I don't see anyone I'd ever marry being negative or unsupportive.
mlm> As long as you the IBO are blindly investing into the MO system and lining the kingpins' pockets, then yes, you are correct Tony.
Wrong! As I’ve said before, I was NOT on Standing order for my first 7-8 months and no one was insulting me or putting me down. My upline still worked with and helped me! Once again making assumptions from what Your upline may have done.
mlm> The question isn't how much you are retailing, it's whether or not you are focusing on the retailing effort itself as opposed to sponsoring, and not making the quixtar business a wholesale "buy from yourself" pyramid scheme.
You’re suggesting I should Just focus on retail and not sponsor anyone? So sharing the opportunity makes it a pyramid? Do you have a problem with pyramids? You really ought to quit your job then. Cause if you don’t think your boss is making money off what you do then you really have no concept of what happens at a job. Doesn’t your boss make more than you? Doesn’t his boss make more than him? Isn’t there 1 CEO at the top, with a few VPs under him, then the MLMs (mid-level managers ;) then the everyday employees at the bottom. Why doesn’t anyone ever see That as a pyramid? Guess what? IT IS!!
Mlm> Then what do you propose as valid, independent research sources, Tony? The Better Business Bureau? The attorneys general from various states? The Department of Consumer Affairs? Each has many complaints lodged against them regarding the quixtar business.
Really, where are YOUR sources? Are you implying these organizations have complaints against Quixtar? Your wording was a little shady. The BBB shows that Quixtar has had like 30 complaints in the last 3 years!! Mostly dealing with shipping, product damage or guarantees, NOT about the legitimacy of the business!! All of which have been resolved! Look into how many lawsuits are filed against Walmart daily! Its like 8 every DAY!!
Mlm> STOP RIGHT THERE, TONY. Just because a website has a link to another website does not mean that the former is in any way trying to imply that they are connected with that company, or are not trying to be dissassociated with that organization. They are just trying to directly connect to another source of information in the same area or subject that they themselves are involved in.
Mlm> I can’t believe you even commented on this?? No offense dude, but you’re a moron!! Fitz was trying to say Quixtar has gone to “Great Lengths� to disassociate themselves from Quixtar, but as I pointed out, on the Frontpage is a link to Amway! It says Alticor: Parent company of Access Business Group, Amway Corp and Quixtar!! How are you gonna say that Quixtar isn’t necessarily implying any connection?? They’re not hiding it! It’s on the frickin FRONTPAGE!!
Mlm>Okay Tony, lets indeed take a look at what ibofacts.com had to say regarding this matter:
Question #20
Aren't Amway and Quixtar really the same?
No. Quixtar and Amway are sister companies and subsidiaries of their parent company, Alticor Inc., a global enterprise doing business in manufacturing, marketing, logistics, and product and business development. Quixtar is a North American Web-based business, and Amway is a traditional direct sales opportunity that is global in scope.
See that Tony, even ibofacts.com is lying through their teeth in order to try to convey the false notion that amway and quixtar are not the same company, when in fact they really are.
Dude, can you read, it says they are sister companies owned by Alticor? Which they are. As is Access Business Group. Where’s the lie?
mlm>No Tony, that's a pure fact. MLMs today rely primarily on recruiting others into the business opportunity, where everybody is trying to make money off of everybody else in a false pyramidal money making scheme, which is illegal and a scamful business for the simple common sense reason that the consumers in the business model are all trying to partake in the profit making of the distribution system.
NEVER TRUST ANYTHING MLMSCAM SAYS!! HE IS A LIAR!! “illegal and scamful business�. Sorry, you lose!! Once again Quixtar has the highest possible rating (record, whatever) with the BBB, and the FTC, ruled in 1979 that MLM is a legit and legal form of business model. Just cause you don’t agree, doesn’t make it illegal!! You are a pathetic liar!
“Negativity is looking at a situation and only seeing the problems! Being positive, is looking at the situation and seeing a challenge or an opportunity to improve something! You need to read more, that will help you "seek the truth." - ??"
You are correct with your assertions here Tony, but you are mistaking the two terms "being negative" and "being critical".
Nice try ‘scam artist, but Fitz never said anything about “being critical�, he spoke only of “negativity�! So I didn’t mistake sh!t!!
Mlm> One has to first be critical when examining a particular business opportunity or endeavor that they want to get themselves involved with, in order to form a basis in making the ultimate decision as to whether or not they want to go ahead and proceed with their involvement. Once they have ascertained all of the facts in order to make that decision, they then have the appropriate amount of information where they can form a positive or negative judgment on that which they fully examined.
Hey, I totally agree, but unfortunately you don’t get “all the facts� by looking on some negative blog site!! But some people read this and run!
Mlm> WRONG TONY. The 2 to 5 year plan is promoted as being an ironclad guarantee for those IBOs that are fully committed to the system and are putting in 15 - 20 hours per week, while showing a minimum of 20 plans per month.
BS, once again – assumptions and generalizations. We tell guests Every week, there are no guarantees! Plain and simple!!
�The problem with this type of business that with such a low startup cost, basically Anyone can sign-up, and as we see here, just not Anyone has the mentality to be a business owner! Thats why most people are employees. And thats OK!,"
Tony, you're right on with your analysis on this particular set of remarks of yours. However, this has nothing to do with why people are failing at quixtar, because the quixtar opportunity is, in and of itself, not a legitimate business opportunity, but a money making pyramid game of chance.
Once again ‘scam artist is A LIAR!!! “not a legitment business� LIAR, LIAR, LIAR!!! FTC and BBB would disagree!! (‘scam artist’s bubble)…. :POP!!:
And X!! How can use be so damn holier than thou and deceptive at the same time??? Your interpretations of the 9 core steps are shady to say the least. Your definition of accountable and teachable are just plain twisted and deceitful! And your #7 : “Show the plan (STP) at least five nights per week� is a straight out lie or at least misquote. It’s # 1 first of all, and it says “show the plan 3 or more times a week!� Not 5 nights a week! But if you can, go for it! You go to work 5 days a week, why not show it 5 nights a week!
I’m really getting tired of making the same arguments here, I about reading to just start posting a standard reply.
Take care!
Do please correct me if I am wrong...
As I understand, the FTC ruled that Amway was not an illegal pyramid, because of:
1. its 'ten-customer rule' - an IBO must prove retail sales to ten customers in order to receive a performance bonus.
2. the 75% rule - 75% of goods must be retailed outside the group to non-distributors.
However, given that these rules are not enforced, would Amway be a legal or illegal pyramid - based on the 1979 ruling?
Tony> And X!! How can use be so XXXX holier than thou and deceptive at the same time??? Your interpretations of the 9 core steps are shady to say the least. Your definition of accountable and teachable are just plain twisted and deceitful! And your #7 : “Show the plan (STP) at least five nights per week� is a straight out lie or at least misquote. It’s # 1 first of all, and it says “show the plan 3 or more times a week!� Not 5 nights a week! But if you can, go for it! You go to work 5 days a week, why not show it 5 nights a week!
X> I copied the 9 core steps EXACTLY as they were written (minus the parenthesis which were the ACTION behind the step) and in the EXACT ORDER as they were taught in my particular LOS, my upline EDC was David Taylor.
You want to talk 'holier than thou art', (sorry to everyone else). I don't use the KJV, so we should rephrase this to 'holier than you are'. and, no, I am not holier than you. The BOTH OF US are wretched sinners and in need of a messiah. I am saying that when your foolish excuse for a 'Christian' ministry says it is Christian (and the BWW system often uses this as an appeal to the Christian audience), you need to go and check the facts, the form of 'Faith' promoted is Word-Faith material, the person is the center, not God, and THAT, sir, is the basis of our own death.
tony wrote:
You’re suggesting I should Just focus on retail and not sponsor anyone? So sharing the opportunity makes it a pyramid? Do you have a problem with pyramids? You really ought to quit your job then. Cause if you don’t think your boss is making money off what you do then you really have no concept of what happens at a job. Doesn’t your boss make more than you? Doesn’t his boss make more than him? Isn’t there 1 CEO at the top, with a few VPs under him, then the MLMs (mid-level managers ;) then the everyday employees at the bottom. Why doesn’t anyone ever see That as a pyramid? Guess what? IT IS!!
Tony my good man:
What makes quixtar an illegal pyramid is not the fact that people make money off of each other, like you said - that's how every for-profit business operates! However, with the quixtar opportunity, a negative sum game exists where the consumers of the quixtar products themselves are also looking to partake in the profit making of the distribution system that they're involved in, where a high percentage of the people involved with the distribution of quixtar products have to be losing money, or at best breaking even, in order for only a small minority of individuals to be making it.
With that said, I never claimed that individual IBOs not be allowed to share the mlm business opportunity, only that they FOCUS primarily on retailing, and not on wholesale distribution sponsoring.
"Mlm> I can’t believe you even commented on this?? No offense dude, but you’re a moron!! [/quote]
Yes, but I'm an intelligent moron :-)
Tony:
I only pray that you're not going to your TKD practices after you finish posting on this blog. Dude, you get so heated up over here that I pity the guy that has to face your feet and fists of fury after your being riled up by us crazy critbots.
I've heard critics quote this "70% rule" and now a "75% rule" whichs begs the question : which is it? first of all the regulation put on Quixtar by the FTC is plain and simple. In order to get paid on your downline's volume, you must do 10 seperate Member/Client orders, or do $100 in M/C volume, or 50pv or M/C volume. That's it. The idea of an IBO retailing 70% of what they buy is silly! I only buy what I need for my own personal use. I have members and clients, but they buy through their own numbers. I don't have to deal with stocking or returns, etc.
And X, yes we are all sinners, but you come on here presenting yourself as a bible scholar and a man of God, but your post about the 9 core steps definitely fell short of His grace. You were deceptive and manipulative and put a negative spin on a few of them. And you know it. I hope you prayed for forgiveness afterward.
You keep mentioning this "Word-Faith" type of Christianity. Yes, many people in BWW are of the Christian faith, and on Sundays at major BWW weekend conferences they hold an Optional, non-denominational Christian service. Never have I seen any teaching that says man is the center of anyone's beliefs. God is the center of these people's faith, not man, not money. I'm sorry you've misinterpreted. Are you not fallable? I think you're mistaken in this instance. To say that BWW teaches a faith where "the person is the center, not God" is simply false. I wonder, to how many BWW w/e conferences you've been to? And how you came to this conclusion?
An "intelligent moron" would not call Quixtar an illegal pyramid, only a foolish one. Your statement is simply false. Please quit lying. :)
You get paid for whatever level you're at. A person at 100pv will make roughly $7-8 on their check. Someone at 1000PV will make around $250 depending on their structure. Someone at Platinum will probably make between $2-3K again depending on structure.
People don't have to lose in order for some to gain. You get paid for where you're at. Little business = little bonus, bigger business = bigger bonus. You get paid on volume, not for recruiting people!! That's why we're not a pyramid.
Plus you can make more than the person who got you started! You get paid on volume, but you have to have good structure too. Just because you sponsor 1 guy who goes 7500pv, doesn't mean You're gonna make $2-3k if he's your only guy! Because its NOT a pyramid. If it were, you'd make more than him for being "above" him. But that only works in a JOB - aka corporate pyramid.
I know a woman who made $40,000 in one year with hardly anyone sponsored because she was retailing the gift albums. She was paid on volume, not recruiting!
And don't worry, once I leave you critbots, I rarely even think of ya. :P
Just thought I'd post some fun facts about Walmart - they get sued once every 2 hours!! Almost 5,000 times last year alone!! There are over 9,000 open lawsuits where Walmart is the defendent! And you guys talk about complaints against Quixtar?? Which are all resolved!
One lawsuit against Walmart is a class action lawsuit filed by former employees that are suing over being forced to work off the clock. Sometimes locked in until their duties were finished, and they weren't compensated for the time! Ha! I think they fall in that 75% who don't like their jobs! Suddenly Quixtar seems less news worthy. Maybe they should handcuff Ken McDonald to his chair and not let him retire, if they want to stay in step with Walmart!
http://www.nfsi.org/walmart/Lawsuits%20a%20volume%20business%20at%20Wal-Mart.htm
http://www.atsnn.com/story/142566.html
Careful Tony,
You may want to talk to Randy Haugen, P&G and Richard Griffin before you continue on this "anti-Wal-Mart" tirade.
;o)
hey Q - did I say anything false? All I did was post some stuff I found on the wonderful internet from sources like USAToday. So if I called Rich or Randy, what would they tell me? If I called John Pepper, what would he have to say. Just curious. Did the big yellow smiley face roll back over them??
Do a search on "i hate walmart" and you see all kind of interesting stuff!
Tony>And X, yes we are all sinners, but you come on here presenting yourself as a bible scholar and a man of God, but your post about the 9 core steps definitely fell short of His grace. You were deceptive and manipulative and put a negative spin on a few of them. And you know it. I hope you prayed for forgiveness afterward.
X> The 9 core steps I reported are EXACTLY as they were taught. The Parenthesis is the attutude you were presented. I guess Larry Winters and David Taylor are not on the same page if the 9 core steps are different between the two, but what I reported is what we were taught, it was not a misrepresentation at all.
Tony>You keep mentioning this "Word-Faith" type of Christianity. Yes, many people in BWW are of the Christian faith, and on Sundays at major BWW weekend conferences they hold an Optional, non-denominational Christian service. Never have I seen any teaching that says man is the center of anyone's beliefs. God is the center of these people's faith, not man, not money. I'm sorry you've misinterpreted. Are you not fallable? I think you're mistaken in this instance. To say that BWW teaches a faith where "the person is the center, not God" is simply false. I wonder, to how many BWW w/e conferences you've been to? And how you came to this conclusion?
X> It is clear to me that despite my earlier posts about the defintion of the WFM (Word-Faith Movement) you still fail to understand WHAT that actually is. Therefore, I shall not repeat it, I shall simply say that you are very deluded and I pray the best for you.
Tony wrote,
"Just thought I'd post some fun facts about Walmart - they get sued once every 2 hours! Almost 5,000 times last year alone!! "
How many times has Wal-Mart been taken to court for being an illegal pyramid scheme? Or for being guilty of fraud? How many of Wal-Marts lawsuits were frivolous attempts at getting a little bit of money from the worlds biggest retailer? All in all, this was a VERY weak shot at a company that Quixtar will never come close to competing with.
It was a joke Tony. Hence the winky face.
tony wrote:
"An "intelligent moron" would not call Quixtar an illegal pyramid, only a foolish one. Your statement is simply false. Please quit lying. :)"
I will once again respond with:
Tony my good man:
What makes quixtar an illegal pyramid is not the fact that people make money off of each other, like you said - that's how every for-profit business operates! However, with the quixtar opportunity, a negative sum game exists where the consumers of the quixtar products themselves are also looking to partake in the profit making of the distribution system that they're involved in, where a high percentage of the people involved with the distribution of quixtar products have to be losing money, or at best be breaking even, in order for only a small minority of individuals to be making it.
To the audience:
Watch now how Tony will call me a foolish moron, or a liar, or maybe even a jackass for putting forth a perfectly good analysis as to why the quixtar game is nothing more than an illegal pyramid.
Of course this is typical of the IBO Bots - if you can't effectively attack the message, then just attack the messenger.
I do like Tony's use of course language on this thread, though. I like to call it "tapespeak with zest", or maybe "colorful tapespeak" or "tapespeak with extra full bodied flavor".
Tony
Wal-Mart is the largest corporation on the world. Quixtar is tiny business that resembles a cult more than a company. Wal-Mart has more sales in one day than Quixtar has in an entire year.
The sites you qouted prove that the majority of WM suits are slip fall accidents, trip accidents, etc.. Not fraudulent scam suits like Quixtar's.
WM has 1.8 million employees. Each store is like a unique company run by managers that may not follow corporate policy. With that many employees, I'm sure you will find many disgruntled employees, every company has them.
Don't compare the two organizations when their not even in the same league.
By the way, WM's CEO has launched numerous actions to address criticisim and make the company better. One thing they began doing was sending daily emails to all employees of every single negative and positive article written nation wide about WM, so everyone can be aware of the good and bad and make WM better as a company. That is the exact opposite of Quixtar trying to hide all the negative from prospects and IBOs.
"By the way, WM's CEO has launched numerous actions to address criticisim and make the company better."
What? Hire a slick PR campaign??
"One thing they began doing was sending daily emails to all employees of every single negative and positive article written nation wide about WM, so everyone can be aware of the good and bad and make WM better as a company."
But are they ever going to quit destroying American manufacturing when they force suppliers to provide goods at a greatly reduced cost?
Are they ever going to address all their other sins, other than with PR?
No, Quixtar doesn't hold a candle to Wal-Mart when it comes to sales. Nor apparently to morality either.
Since you seem to be the expert in morality around here, you got anything to say about that, xanadustic?
"Careful Tony, You may want to talk to Randy Haugen, P&G and Richard Griffin before you continue on this "anti-Wal-Mart" tirade."
Well you had better inform Fast Company Magazine as well.
www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html
By the way, if any of you here believe that buying non-Quixtar products is a much more moral option, then I suggest you read "Soap Opera" by Alecia Swasy, a reporter for the Wall St. Journal.
I dare any of you to. Then come back and tell me if the Quixtar holds a candle to this investigated corporation as well when it comes to lack of morality.
M&M
This is America. Nobody is forced to do anything. If suppliers don't like it, don't do business with them. It's very simple. WM cuts cost everywhere it can to pass on to the consumer who wants the lowest prices. If a consumer wants overpriced products go somewhere that has to pay unions, has in-efficient operations, has behind the times thinking, etc. OR go somwhere where they inflate the prices to pay some pompous jerks that call themselves "Diamonds". Wal-Mart is capitalism at it's greatest.
Or if you'd like, maybe Wal-Mart should just close their doors and not do business, 1.8 million jobs lost and $300 billion to the US economy a year and all the other companies who depend on WM for business really don't matter. My department in construction provide $14 billion a year in construction jobs alone. Yeah that's a great idea.
Wal-Mart is a retail WHORE.
We maybe should talk about the tens of thousands of small businesses ruined by Wal-Mart. Or the tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs ELIMINATED in America due to Wal-Mart's forcing jobs overseas in the name of promoting the saving a few cents to the unenlightened masses. You know what you get then, bud? A DOWNWARD spiral in our society, with a incomes DROPPING more than the purported savings in consumer purchasing. This is indisputable.
Besides, those construction jobs have only given us more big ugly boxes on our landscape, often paving over some of our most productive farmland.
People are starting to get the message, as Wal-Mart's sales have slowed markedly.
Wal-Mart is not a moral alternative to shopping Quixtar.
M&M
We already know your an idiot when comes to business and retail, you believe anything your told, and your brainwashed by the fact you're in Quixtar.
Sales have not slowed you dufus. They have gone up every month. Check your facts before you slander and defame...Oh, I forgot you're an Ambot, that what you do best.
By the way I'll post an article on my blog if you'd like talkinf about how WM web site is growing faster than ever thought and is third to only Amazon and EBay, without even really trying. Now I thought Quixtar was the online retail "wave of the future". Hahaha.
I love the complaint we send jobs over sees. So, does practically every other corporation in America. It's the modern economy. Did you know that WM products produced in China equal the amount of products and jobs we provide in just one state in the US, say for example Illinois? Now multiply that times 50. Still want us to go?
Did you know WM sponsors one acre of land for conservation for every acre it develops. No other company does that.
M&M
When I'm out of milk or need to buy anything for that matter, I think, "I wonder what would be the most 'moral' place for me to shop".
Nope.
I want a product, I want it cheep, and I want convenience.
The way your talking, you need to move to France.
"When I'm out of milk...."
Quixtar doesn't even sell milk to compare, silly.
""I wonder what would be the most 'moral' place for me to shop".
Nope."
Quixtar seems to be judged this way, hypocrites.
"Did you know WM sponsors one acre of land for conservation for every acre it develops. No other company does that."
Which means, eventually this menace and plague called Wal-Mart will have to come to an end. These are still big UGLY boxes ruining the landscape, eyesores and insults to our culture and society. Wal-Mart would not have done this had there been no pressure.
Wal-Mart is also music CENSORS!! Before you know it, this retail TALIBAN will tell each and every one of us what we can read, who we can listen to, what we will wear, etc. THEY DON'T EVEN SELL MY MUSIC!!!!!! Read Rolling Stone Oct 18, 2004. Their threatening and strong-arm tactics are used not only on the music industry but virtually every other supplying industry as well.
Wal-Mart is also responsible for less variety in the marketplace overall. Let's say, for example, Schwinn manufactures 12 models of bikes. WM decides to carry Schwinn. But WM says, "Hey, we will only carry 6 models." Schwinn, at that point, will only manufacture 6 models as it is not cost effective to continue with the others as the production numbers will be significantly lower compared to production of the large numbers sold to WM, coupled with low profit on each bike sent to WM. It's true for many other industries also. Yes, the consumer gains a few pennies (or a few dollars maybe, on a bike), but loses in marketplace variety as WM is SO big, the manufacturing sector must focus mainly on what WM wants. It's not that WM needs to go away, it's just that it's too big for our own good. That's where it steps over the boundaries of morality, its misuse of power and the implications of that misuse, such as censorship, as I mentioned above.
"Did you know that WM products produced in China equal the amount of products and jobs we provide in just one state in the US, say for example Illinois?"
You mean those cheap, lousy, overworked, underpaid jobs WM provides?
"The way your talking, you need to move to France."
Yeah, maybe there are fewer Wal-Marts.
M&M>Quixtar doesn't even sell milk to compare, silly.
X>https://www.quixtar.com/products/product.aspx?itemno=601560
Seems a bit more expensive to me...LOL
As for the morality in Wal-mart, I'm sure some exists. If I can can find immorality in the Roman Catholic Church, Methodist Church, and in my own Church where a youth pstor was caught (and removed for) having an adulturous affair, I can find it in any institution.
The difference is the deception used in A/Q is very high, very visible, and very damaging to everyone involved. Is is at WM? I simply don't know. I haven't researched WM, mostly because I don't care. I don't shop Walmart much, it drives me crazy to go in there and hear that loudspeaker every few seconds.
I do, however, have great respect for WM and what it has
Thanks, Qblog - a good, informative post.
I've added Nic to my favorites.
Thanks for doing all that you do. I hope that I'm not too annoying!
Posted by: Keith Sr. | June 8, 2005 7:34 AM