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June 30, 2005
Happy Forum-versary
By QBlog in Blog News
On June 30, 2003 the Quixtar BLOG Forum went live. The original blog post announcing the launch of the Forum reads thusly:
The Forum is live and ready for action. Anyone can participate. It's free and easy to get set up. If you have questions about Quixtar, ask them here. If you have a success story to share, tell it here. If you have a complaint about the business, complain here. If you want to talk about other MLMs, BSMs or whatever, talk about it here.
You get the idea. This is your forum. It will only be as good as you want it to be. I realize that there are many MLM forums on the Web and I don't expect this one to be some enormous success. I expect it to start very slowly and hopefully build over time. Developing online communities is no easy task and I hope nobody views this community as competition to any of the other, established communities. I just want this to be yet another forum for people to express their thoughts and feelings about Quixtar and MLMs.
So, get set up on the new forum and start talking.
Two years later the Quixtar BLOG Forum has nearly 600 registered members, almost 32,000 posts and a wealth of information and commentary. Thanks to everyone for making the Forum such a cool place for Quixtar and MLM discussions. I can't wait to see what it will look like two years from now.
Comments
Wow Tony, you believe in pre-emptive strikes... I am surprised your IBO# isn’t posted for anyone reading to sign up under. The funny part is, as in your own words people shouldn't believe just anybody and there words and experiences. Great thing your here to tell them the truth!?
An analogy that I use concerning Quixtar, is that its equivalent to "Fleecing your own sheep." You are encouraged to get more and more people under you... So they can buy tools and tapes and get more folks under them doing the same. The money from those tools and seminars are funneled up to the higher echelon of leadership, who really don't care about downline IBO’s success as long as they continue to purchase these items and follow the system. But don't take my word for it, look around the site, check the forums. Information and eye-opening testimonials are all over this valuable website.
In my opinion when someone greets you by saying "one thing you have to keep in mind is that Anyone can post Anything on this Blogsite" I feel they are patronizing my intelligence and attempting to sway my thinking by “warning� me from believing any one besides them. It’s a ploy that’s used often in the Quixtar business plan. However I personally believe in the innate ability of people in smelling BS and figuring out there own path in life given suitable chance.
If you can keep your head about you, learn what others have already found and follow your heart you should be able to figure out the correct path without being told what to do and how to think by “helpful folks� like Tony.
I had to check something else Tony, earlier in "True Lies" you posted "Tell that to my sponsor who after 2.5 years had 100+ people in his biz and 9,000pv and made $3200 this month. He's 22, still in college."
And above you state
"Well the guy who personally helped me get started is only 22 years old, still in college and is making about $2500 a month!!"
I am just wondering why your figures tango all over the place when your so dedicated to accuracy?
Tony,
Consider this a friendly warning.
This is not the place to post your off-topic manifestos regarding Quixtar. If you want to blog, get your own blog. If you want to comment as it relates to this blog, be my guest.
Such comments will be removed in the future.
Good day.
This forum rawks!! Quixtar must LOVE this forum!
Thanks QBlog, u beat me to the punch! I was gonna ask what's that post has to do with forum-versary? Blog comments are becomming hard to follow. May be a limit on letters? 50 or so?
Tony: you want a blog? Need my help? I have helped some IBOs and offer every one for it.
Regarding u comment to forum,
"If you’re on here to research the Quixtar business, one thing you have to keep in mind is that Anyone can post Anything on this Blogsite."
Any one can sign under Quixtar as well. Like that guy in dateline show who was wanted by police in two states! So yeah, good advice Tony. Research, with an open mind. Don't trust blindly the person sponsoring u, like I did, and don't listen to every on on the internet either. Think ;)
Just by saying that anyone can post in internet and implying internet research is a bad idea is not a good advice. Just like trusting any one without any business research is.
Dawson,
Figures all over the place? Which ones? He's 22, he's been in for about 2.5 years, he makes about $2500 a month, but THIS month made over $3200. Does that make sense? See he's averaging about $2500 a month. This month he made $3200 (got a bonus) next month will probably just be $2500, but in 2 months he'll have a $5000 month! (Platinum bonus) Get it yet?
*And Qblog, now you're going to edit or DELETE comments you don't like??
YOU said in this topic "I just want this to be yet another forum for people to express their thoughts and feelings about Quixtar and MLMs."
(I thought thats what I did!)
and before that it said, "If you have questions about Quixtar, ask them here. If you have a success story to share, tell it here. If you have a complaint about the business, complain here. If you want to talk about other MLMs, BSMs or whatever, talk about it here."
But now I can't share my thoughts and success stories, or whatever?? I can't answer questions that most people have - or address what critbots have been saying?? Is it because YOU are not nearly as FAIR or Unbiased as you pretend to be?? Sorry Eric J, you just lost A LOT of credibilty with me! I hope this stays in the archives so people can see if you make points Eric "Qblog" don't like, he's gonna delete your post and tell you to play somewhere else.
Hey Eric, where's that post you screened? In an archive? (The one with all the links showing several Qx prices same or lower than competition.) How bout you post it here?
Qblob didn't say his issue with your 1200+ word essay was about liking your post or not, it was based on the fact it had nothing to do with the topic!
Your over reaction instead of a simple "sorry man I will keep on topic next time" is a fine showing of your mentality though. I think this is great, anyone reading your first post will follow up with your fanatical responses and get a much better idea of your personality and lack of common courtesy for others (this is his blog after all).
Sorry the first line above was supposed to start "Qblog" Who switched my B and G keys??
Uh Tony, who has any credibility here with you to begin with :) We keep losing it pretty fast eh!
Tony> *And Qblog, now you're going to edit or DELETE comments you don't like??
Imran> read Tony, please read!! He said that about Forum!!!
Join the forum. Start ur own thread. Kick our critic bu_tt. Wage a holy crusade. In forum there is advocates section, and it's recommended to post in appropriate category. That’s exactly what he said here. We can't start a thread which is Quixtar Critical in Advocate section.
He has give opportunity to critics for 2 whole years and there have been great debates. Many pros posted there.
There come you, start to post your own agenda in every blog entry, allowed for a much longer than fair time, and when asked to post it appropriately QBlog don't like your comments.
So Tony, u just lost all credibility, mojo and virginity here!
I meant to say he has given opportunity to pro Quixtar IBOs for whole 2 years and they have made many posts. Some are pretty good!
And this is the blog section. Where comments are supposed to be about the current blog post. Forum is at webraw.com/quixtar/forum
Tony,
How about reading the 1979 Final order in FTC v. Amway. It says nothing about "the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) stated that Multi-Level, or Network Marketing (Private Franchising) is a legal and legitimate form of business."
To set the record straight on the 1979 FTC case:
http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/mlm/ftc/amway.htm
See bottom for the order section:
1) Amway is ordered to stop price fixing with many sub orders.
2) Amway is ordered to stop misrepresenting in any manner the past, present, or future profits, earnings, or sales from such participation, with many sub orders.
The only reason it was found not to be an illegal pyramid was that the FTC thought people were actually retailing a majority of products to non-IBOs.
MLM is only legal when 50%+ of the sales come from people outside of the group (aka retail custoemrs).
Here is a little page to help you with the proper characteristics of an illegal pyramid.
http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_pyramid_rebuttal.html
I don't think I was rude - I think rude was Dawson in another topic calling me a "puzzy". Now that was rude. That was you wasn't it Dawson?
I think I made many valid points, sorry that it was perceived as "off topic". I guess I should've said:
"Yea, congrats qblog - you managed to give people a place to complain about not succeeding in something, and to tear apart every person who comes on here with a "success story". Because obviosuly anyone who succeeds is a deceptive, lying, money-hungry cult leader??"
Would that have been more appropriate. Cause since April when I started reading this thats all I've seen.
Get your facts straight Tony before accusing! I have yet to call you any crude name, anywhere and at any time. Once again you seem to have mistaken something rather crucial. Check again. I feel I have approached your topics in a cool level headed manner and with logic.
Your talk about credability and losing it is humorous at best, I am new to these posts and KNOW I have no "built in" credibility, its up to others to read my posts and form in their mind whether I am worth listening to or not, but I would GREATLY appreciate it if you were not to slander me with misrepresentation.
You Tony have not gained any credibility with me so far, so you have none to lose.
No, Tony that was me that called you a puzzy. Get it right.
I think Dawson holds you in higher regard to call you names. But give him time, I am sure he'll understand why I call you a puzzy.
Happy Anniversary -- a special day for you and me.....
Switching gears, let's discuss the historisis that lawdawg so graciously provided in a previous post:
Lawdawg:
"Well, since 1970, according the FTC, the number of distributors has stayed at about 300K-360K and 50% of the whole distributor force quits every year. That's 150,000 former distributors every year since 1970.
Multiply that by 35 years and you get 5,250,000 former IBOs (just going back to 1970). Yet there's only 31 that are at "diamond" level and above today.
That's a whopping "diamond" success rate of . . .
.00061%
. . . or roughly one diamond success story for every 164,000 IBOs"
What a great success rate after 35 years of paddlin the canoe!
Congrats Q-Blog. The forum is top-notch. You started it with a good format and have added extra sections to accomodate many different discussions, not just Quixtar. It really is an Internet community.
Good neighbors, crack-pot neighbors, the occasional transient, and of course that weird guy that always waters his lawn in his underwear.
Oh sorry, that's just me in real life.
Congratulations Qblog! This site really serves a worthwhile purpose. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.
to Tony:
How much was it that YOU were making, NET, every month in Quixtar???
Thanks, Qblog, for creating a forum that is about as even handed as any I've seen out "on the bathroom walls :-)"
I think that you show admirable restraint in not removing Tony's pro-Quix blather... I've heard and said that stuff so, so many times... It's what we're taught to do... I'm so glad to be away from that crap.
A warning to Tony - don't hang your hat on the legitimacy of the tools system just because (you say) it's being disclosed in passing. There is still the question of the tools flow being an unregulated part of the marketing plan, or outside and uncovered by the marketing plan. Believe it or not, there is more to diclosure than just telling people there is money to be made - it's also a legal issue.
IMO, this is what is eventually going to cause Am/Quix the big headaches in the future. And don't even try to dispute this fact, Tony - between LawDawg and myself, we have forgotten more about these issues than you have EVER known.
Tony -
Instead of questioning the credibility of the people and the information posted on this blog, why don't you provide some concrete evidence to support your claims? I dunno, something with the weight of the SA-4400 or similar. Something a real business would do, instead a recruiting scheme.
Remember people, if they can't back up their wild-ass and unlikely claims - it's B.S.. Use some common sense, folks...
Mike
"If you’re on here to research the Quixtar business, one thing you have to keep in mind is that Anyone can post Anything on this Blogsite. You don’t even know if there’s any truth to it. Even if someone says, “I tried it and it didn’t work� you have no idea what kind of work that person actually put forth."
That includes remarks you make, Tony, all things being equal.
The purpose of this blog and its accompanying forum is to stimulate thought and conversation about Quixtar. If you're going to criticize this site for doing what it was intended to do, then you're not going to lend yourself much credibility. It's frequently much easier to blast the messenger than to address the message.
Happy Forum-versary, QBlog, and congratulations for the continued success of a site that does what it was designed to do and is true to its purpose.
PW
I posted this under The True Lies Entry, but the subject and number of Diamonds keeps popping up.
Here are the published numbers for 2004 according to the Achievers Issue.
According to the most recent Achiever's Issue for 2004 here is the breakdown on NEW Diamonds and above.
Founders Crown 1
Double Diamond 1
Founders Exec Diamond 1
Executive Diamond 5
Founders Diamond 8
Diamond 34
David:
How many dropped out of qualification? You are only telling half the story.
"New" diamonds isn't the issue. Current diamonds is the issue.
Quixtar's data shows that less than 40 IBOs hold a pin level of Diamond or higher. So while you may find new diamonds and above, you have to subtract for the ones who have fallen. What you'll find is that the numbers stay the same. Which isn't surprising since the number of IBOs is the same as it was in 1970.
Why would there be more diamonds? The business hasn't grown in North America in 35 years. How do we know? By looking at Quixtar's own data about its business today and comparing it to FTC data from the seventies.
Since there are references here to a discussion of historical data with no context, here is the full post thhis is in reference to about what Quixtar's own numbers show about the state of its business in North America.
What, with the unlimited income potential and the ability to make residual income there should be thousands who followed Amway/Quixtar's "proven system of success" as a path to "early retirement" just like Michael and Tony are doing, right?
Let's Take A Look At Quixtar's Own Numbers
According to Quixtar, there are 340,000 current IBOs. 66% of these are "active." That makes 224,400 "active" IBOs.
According to the numbers that Amway/Quixtar are required to provide by the FTC (which found Amway guilty of making false income claims in 1979), the following are the percentages of those "active" distributors that have reached the level of "diamond" and above:
Diamonds 0.0076%
Founders Diamonds 0.0018%
EDC & up 0.0042%
Thus, by multiplying these Quixtar numbers by the official number of "active" IBOs we can determine the total number that have accumulated at each of these highly successful pin levels over the last fifty years (rounding up):
Diamonds 17
Founders Diamonds 4
EDC & up 10
Thus, according to the company's own numbers, despite fifty years of IBOs working to build a residual income, the total number that have accomplished the feat appears to be . . . . 31!
How many have tried? Well, since 1970, according the FTC, the number of distributors has stayed at about 300K-360K and 50% of the whole distributor force quits every year. That's 150,000 former distributors every year since 1970.
Multiply that by 35 years and you get 5,250,000 former IBOs (just going back to 1970). Yet there's only 31 that are at "diamond" level and above today.
I've been reading for while and I see some funny numbers happening here. You anti-quixtar people are really manipulating the numbers.
Founders Crown 1
Double Diamond 1
Founders Exec Diamond 1
Executive Diamond 5
Founders Diamond 8
Diamond 34
That's 50 that have hit these levels in 2004 alone, and some of you are trying to say that its 31 or 32, or 34 in ALL of time???
How silly do you all look? 50 did it last year. Perhaps you're misinterpreting quixtar's numbers. Making your own assumptions.
Also trying to say half quit every year, where's that # substantiated? Even if so, you can't take 150,000 x 50 to get the number of total IBO's ever, because i know people who've been in with amway, quit, rejoined, with quixtar, quit and now are back for a 3rd time. You can't count 1 person 3 times!! so your .00061 success rate is so far twisted it borders slander!!
Not to mention to be active all you have to do is renew and buy something every once in a while. I'd like to know what % are really trying to build this thing! how many are "core" actually showing plans, or really focusing on retailing, etc. It ain't no 2/3 thats fo sho!
Keep your Real Estate books you can pick up in your neighborhoods and you will watch realtors change every year! I know they say "million dollar producer" but many are gone soon after. Just like A/Q Diamonds they come and go.
I wasn't providing half the story. Just the hard data on NEW and only NEW diamonds.
Someone else, (maybe Larsen, maybe you Lawdawg) have the list of those that dropped out or did not requalify. But of all the kingpins that are on the radar, I'm sure not ALL have dropped outta of qualification.
Anyone know the qualification data on the members of the IBOIA board? It seems logical they would still be in Diamond qualification but who knows?
But the NEW diamonds listed are MORE than 31 or 32, no matter how you slice the current IBO numbers.
Is anyone taking into account the other 2.5 million other IBOs not in Quixtar but counted in Diamond qualification?
I guess I'll ask the question that NEVER gets answered again.
How many Quixtar only diamonds?
Who is now a diamond that has never been in Amway
Anyone yet?
PS nice novel Tony.
Sigh . . .
Let's stop and think about what a "diamond" pin recognition means . . . it means somebody hit the pin FOR ONE MONTH.
GOT THAT?
FOR ONE MONTH.
It doesn't mean they are still a diamond. It doesn't mean they will ever be a diamond again. So if you have 34 new diamonds in a year that's about 3 diamonds a month.
And Dave, you don't need the numbers that fall out of qualification.
You can use Quixtar's own numbers to determine how many diamonds there are.
You are trying to use the numbers of "new" diamonds to tell half the story. My point was, and is, you aren't telling it all.
Happy Forum-versary to you QBlog and to the quixtar Blog.
Glad I stumbled across this site in 2003, man what a help it has been.
Rock on.
Clifford
I thought Diamond Qualification is for 6 months? As platinum is the one who maintain volume of 7500 PV for six months. Silver for 1 month. You can't go Diamond for 6 silvers.
A Diamond is an IBO who registers 6 or more qualified groups(3 North American) each of which qualifies at the maximum Performance Bonus Level for 6(that's SIX) months of the fiscal year.
It used to be one month, I read some where in BO's blog. Then it was changed to 6 months to avoid pin buying. This is porbably the reason of no Quixtar only diamond.
Also, as Jennifer Lee pointed out, Founder pins are the pins that reflect solid structture. Dave, what is the founder pin now?
A founder's pin is awarded for 12 months of pin qualification
Oh! so Q12 is founder platinum....
I thought founders are those who find other same pins, e.g. founder diamond is the one having a diamond downline......
I was just a 1500 PVer.....
I am also reposting my comment as seen in another thread:
Currently there are 21 members of Management Team in Worldwide. A STRICT qualification of diamond is required. Nearly all on the current board DO NOT fall in and out of qualification every year. This is a straight-up fact. According to your definition then lawDaug, WWG holds 2/3 of the diamonds in North America.
I guess that leaves about 3 diamonds for BWW, 3 for Dexter's business and 4 for the assorted LOS.
Tony >> YOU said in this topic "I just want this to be yet another forum for people to express their thoughts and feelings about Quixtar and MLMs."
This is a blog not a Forum. There is a difference.
Congratulations on the long run of your Blog, Qblog! Some folks love it, others love to hate it, but the staying power cannot be denied!
Ima
So who's got it wrong: Quixtar in the data it is legally required to publish, or its motivational systems? Somebody is way off. Quixtar says that there were only 31 people in 2002 with a "diamond" pin or above (even using 2004 data on the total number of IBOs). In late 2004, Quixtar's own data shows about the same number of IBOs in 2004 in north america as there was in 1970.
Why would there be more diamonds if there aren't any more IBOs? Why would there be a sudden, dramatic rise in the total number of qualifying diamonds and above when - in fifty years - according to Quixtar's own stats - there were only 31 as of 2002?
There isn't substantially any more diamonds and above then there was 35 years ago. Anyone suggesting that this is inconsistent with what the systems are saying and we should trust the systems instead of _the data the corporation is legally required to publish_ needs to have their head examined.
All the people who keep saying "this isn't a "forum", post in the "forum" - he was talking about the "forum", this is a blog - theres a difference" -- you people are morons!!
When qblog said "I just want this to be yet another forum for people to express their thoughts..." he was talking about THIS SITE!! This forum, this "arena" - he wasn't refering to "the forum" as in "threads". Qblog, would you like to explain that to some of these critbots here just couldn't find any other thing to b1tch about!!
How many Quixtar only Diamonds?? I don't know. I don't care. People have gone Diamond in a bout a year, some took 22!! The reason you ask the question is because Qx has been around for 5 years now, right? And if its a 2-5 year plan why aren't there more Diamonds, right? Cause its a PLAN not a guarantee!! Its not 5 years from when you start! It could be 5 years once you put in consistent effort. Most people take a while before they stop treating it like a hobby. And even then it might take a little longer.
I was told it takes 3 years to get a black belt, and people Have done it in 3 years, but it took me over twice that long, cause I didn't stick to the plan - I had other things I was involved with that slowed that process - and thats OK, I still did it, cause I set a goal and constantly strived to that end!
Oh, and its not the QMO's that put out Achieve magazine with all the new pins!- its QUIXTAR!! Achieve doesn't just have BWW or WWDB, its ALL new pins, and its part of the Quixtar publication fee when you sign up or renew - nice try though!! Stop misrepresenting the #'s!!
Oh, and the checks have been sent to qb, ask him if you want to see them. I didn't give him permission to post them publicly, for possible legal issues, but I said he could send them to anyone solely as proof that there is more than just money from tools at the Diamond level.
The number of Diamonds I published here came from Quixtar as of January 2005 based on fiscal year 2003-2004.
And the number of IBOs is still sufficient to support other Diamonds. More IBOs are not necessary to break more Diamonds.
Just increased volume among current IBOs.
Happy Anniversary!
Tony, listen up -- I am only going to say this once. QBlog does not have time for this crap and others have tried to tell you but you just won't learn.
Scroll up and READ QBlog's post. It is commemorating the anniversary of the launch in 2003 of the QBlog Forum.
See the indented type? The small stuff? That is a QUOTE from the June 30, 2003 post in which he announced that launch.
Still with me? Now, look at that smaller, indented, QUOTED type and read: "If you have questions about Quixtar, ask them here. If you have a success story to share, tell it here. If you have a complaint about the business, complain here. If you want to talk about other MLMs, BSMs or whatever, talk about it here."
THAT is about the Forum. And the Forum is where you were told yesterday that you could go and start your own thread if you want to rave on about Quixtar, rather than ramble on and on, off topic, in the comment section of this blog.
Please do us all a favor and READ before you speak. Don't give us any more reason than we already have to laugh at you.
solonge, what does it matter where I post my thoughts & arguments? How many of you jump on the "forum" and post/read threads, I know I never do. Most people get on here and just read the Main site, and Make Comments on the MAIN site! I'm not gonna waste my time starting a thread that will just be ransacked by critbots, and ignored by most people doing research anyways!
Now if it was off topic, granted, but don't tell me to bury my comments on some little read thread. Funny thing is, in 2 days when people started blasting IBOs again, my post would have been on target then.
I'm still waiting to hear from all you critbots about the checks I sent qblog. Still gonna say Diamonds only make their money from tools. The checks I sent were 2 from Nov of '02 for a total of almost $95,000 (1 month, NO tools) and 2 from last Dec. for a total of over $124,000 (1 month, no tools) How's you 401k looking??
Besides Keith (and qblog) no one's emailed me about them. Has anyone asked qblog to see them?? I thought everyone was so interested in the proof?? I think its me laughing at you guys! You pound your chest when an IBO makes a spelling error or misreads something, but thats all you have to stand on. You twist #'s around to make us look bad, and can't even see where your logic went wrong. Critics I can live with - critbots are getting old!
Tony talk about people quitting martial arts and some boy scouts do not become eagle scouts. True, but you don't recruit people into martial arts or boy scouts by telling them that they can be financially free, walk away from their jobs, be out of debt, etc. And then show them a 2-5 year plan where over 99% of the participants end up with less money than they started with. Then after 5 years, teach them that the business is not about money. Give me a milllion breaks here.
Also, quixtar may not be an illegal pyramid, but the motvational groups have not been cleared and propven innocent by the FTC. Why not have the FTC investigate and clear the motivational groups, then we may have something to discuss here.
Oh and while Tony and Ray are talking about diamonds coming and going, similar to real estate agents producing a million one year and disappearing the next.....
Can you tell us why there's a list of diamonds and pins who quit the business? Why would they quit when they can walk away with a "residual" income. Please someone answer this question!!!
Tony, I am still waiting for an acknowledgement /apology for your misrepresentation of me... I doubt I will see it though you have a tendency not to look back when you make a mistake.
Also you may actually want to look at the forum before you talk about it, there are thousands of viewers and hundreds of responses, once again you seem to type before you think or research.
Tony, I don't need to see the cheques. I believe you.
I'd be interested to see the breakdown of where the cash came from, though. Would it be from retailing of goods or is it purely bonuses from downline sales?
I imagine that it's quite possible to make money at this by selling goods. It's the 'buy from yourself and teach others to do the same' model that I think is - if not impossible - then certainly extremely difficult.
I think that anyone who has what it takes to make it to Diamond level in Quixtar must be a very good salesman - in which case I think that he should get a job in sales, and make more money without having to spend anything on tapes and seminars that tell you how awful the non-Quixtar world is.
Saw the apology in the True lies section, I accept and strike my previous post.
Tony and others speak a good game, because the system they listen to is very good at convincing people they are doing the right thing. Problem is, when one truly explores the world of AmQuix and looks at real facts and figures, the picture painted is completely different then the one told to by the diamonds on their tapes.
First and foremost, there is money to be made from Quixtar, and not just the tools. In fact, from the SA440, we know what the average big pin makes, and I'll admit a diamond makes more money from Quixtar then I do at my job. But checks and average income only tells a tiny part of the story.
In the big picture, there is also a lot of money to be made from tools. And up to a few years ago, talking about the tool money was taboo. But since the internet, t.v. exposes and books have been published about tool money, the big pins have now admitted to making up to $100,000/year on tools. These are the same big pins that one vehimenintly denied any tool money.
Now, to me, this begs two questions. One, is the tool money capped at just about $100,000, and two, how could these big pins lie through their teeth and have people accept it. I'll answer the second question first. The truth is, with the huge turnover rate in Quixtar, every few years the big pins could say completely different things and there won't be many IBO's left to challenge the statement. From Quixtar's own numbers, 50% of IBO's don't renew after their first year, and 67% quit a year. In five years, that leaves about 1,300 IBO's who remain active over the course of five years!
The answer to the first question leads to even more and bigger questions, and this can be simply put by saying, "Show me the money." Big pins say they make $100,000/year on tools, but where is the proof? We have only their word, and we have already establishd the big pins are out and out liars. Remember, they, not long ago, denied any tool money. So why should we believe the tool money is only $100,000/year?
And when you investigate further, you find out that the $100,000 number seems very low. CD's are sold to IBO's for $7. Yet they cost probably less then $.50 a piece to copy. I can buy, at Wal-Mart, 30 blank CD's for about $16, and can copy then on two of my home computers. Imagine at the levels big pins copy, the cost is even less. To make the math easy, say with shipping, a CD cost $1 to copy and send to an IBO, meaning each CD has a $6 profit. Even if 10% of 300,000 IBO's are buying just 1 CD a week, that is 120,000 CD's a month, or a profit of $720,000 a month, or $8,640,000/year.
But CD's aren't the only tool profit center big pins have. They also make money from seminars. Every hotel room booked for IBO conferences go through the big pins, and even if the big pin is charging an extra $10/room, if a diamond books 100 hotel rooms, he's making an easy $1000/night.
Unfortunately, we may never know just what the big pins make from tools. They are confirmed liars. The best information we do have is from the Ruth Carter book, "Beyond the Smoke and Mirrors." I suggest for anyone to read it to see what she says about tool profits.
Of course, if the tool profit was the only problem, it would be insidious enough. But, there is also the pyramid portion of Quixtar. Tony says a pyramid is a system where those at the top always make more then those below. And while this fits the mathematical definition, it doesn't fit the financial definition.
In financial terms, a pyramid scheme is one where the profits solely come from the participants in the scheme. It says nothing about someone below making more then his upline. In fact, even in traditional Ponzi schemes, someone below can make more then his upline. Still doesn't mean the system isn't a Ponzi scheme.
What this means for Quixtar is if the money comes from IBO's only, i.e. the particpants in the scheme, it is, by definition, a pyramid scheme. If the money (purchases) come from non-participants, i.e. members/clients, Quixtar is legal, per the 1979 FTC decision.
But again, those liars that are the big pins have been having IBO's on a system that is buy from yourself and teach others to do so, with giving only lip service to member/client purchases. The average IBO has only .23 member/client, and most studies have found 80% of all Quixtar purchases are made by IBO's themselves. Hmm, money coming from the participants means we are looking at a pyramid scheme, regardless if someone can make more then his upline or not.
In the end, for the majority of IBO's, Quixtar is a money loser. There are a few that actually do retail and make money, but it's usually not what the big pins make. And for the few that do make money, they've had to lie their way for profits for years.
Dawson, I'm glad you saw the other post, but I have to disagree with your claim that I have a Tendacy not to look back when I make a mistake. I apologized to JD for filling in too many blanks. I've apologized for getting a little heated. A Tendacy has to be more than once. But since you striked the comment, I'll let it slide. I'd still like to know how things are with your friend. Did you try my advise?
joe18> Tony talk about people quitting martial arts and some boy scouts do not become eagle scouts. True, but you don't recruit people into martial arts or boy scouts by telling them that they can be financially free, walk away from their jobs.."
T> well no sh!t, cause you Can't in TKD or the scouts!! Thats not part of the program!
You people now seem to have a problem with recruiting or "duplicating"!! Well then you need to be Consistant and have a bone to pick with ALL franchise businesses!!!
My TKD instructor taught enough people that reached blackbelt to have 10 branch schools thru out the area!! He makes a % off EACH branch! And when those branches train blackbelts and one of them opens a branch (like me), its still his branch and he makes a % off that branch!!
He's duplicated himself to compound his time and be more profitable!! Is that a scam? Should that be illegal?? If so than we need to shut down McDonalds, BK and Taco Bell too!! Wake the F* up!!
Buzzard, I don't even know where to start with you! First you want to know if the $ came "from retailing of goods or is it purely bonuses from downline sales?" Implying what? that its probably purely bonuses of downline sales, right?
But then in the next paragraph you say:
"It's the 'buy from yourself and teach others to do the same' model that I think is - if not impossible - then certainly extremely difficult."
Does ANYONE find that comical?? You're contradicting yourself!! If you're implying the check was "purely from downline volume" then thats what the system shows! Buy thru yourself and teach others to do the same!!
And thats what he's done! He's helped 6 people go Platinum. That's 6 people at 7500+pv! Those 6 aren't retailing 7500pv to clients. They've developed teams! 6-4-2... have you seen the plan! Yes you have to retail to get paid on downline volume (50pv), but you go Diamond by breaking 6 Platinums!
buz> I think that anyone who has what it takes to make it to Diamond level in Quixtar must be a very good salesman
T> not necessarily, they just got good at developing teams! (6-4-2)!
buz> - in which case I think that he should get a job in sales, and make more money without having to spend anything on tapes and seminars
T> a job in sales?? why, so if he don't show up he don't get paid? These guys are free! No jobs, residual income! And how would they make more money? How many salesmen make $100,000 in 1 month! And its still a JOB!
And what Diamond is paying for seminars? You're a moron! They're the ones talking from stage! And being paid for it! We show it in the plan. Have you seen one yet? You're possibly the worst critbot of them all!
Tony:> well no sh!t, cause you Can't in TKD or the scouts!! Thats not part of the program!
You people now seem to have a problem with recruiting or "duplicating"!! Well then you need to be Consistant and have a bone to pick with ALL franchise businesses!!!
My TKD instructor taught enough people that reached blackbelt to have 10 branch schools thru out the area!! He makes a % off EACH branch! And when those branches train blackbelts and one of them opens a branch (like me), its still his branch and he makes a % off that branch!!
He's duplicated himself to compound his time and be more profitable!! Is that a scam? Should that be illegal?? If so than we need to shut down McDonalds, BK and Taco Bell too!! Wake the F* up!! ,
But Tony, it pretty well documented that opening a McDonald's or Taco Bell, it's over a 90% probability that you will succeed and reach the income claims that are made by the franchisers. They do research into demographics to determine whether the area can support and make a business successful.
In quixtar, it'e pretty clear that well over 90% of people fail, and what's worse than not making money, these people get into debt at the advice of the diamonds. It's pretty clear that the amquix teaching system does not work or there would be a lot more people reaching the diamond level.
Also, Tony does not anwer my concern that the motivational groups are an illegal pyramid. The big money is being made by a handful of kingpins, and then lesser diamonds, get a cut, and so on down to the platinum directs who may get a .25 kickback on tapes. Because the tapes and other tools do not have retail sales, all the income is from the participant, making it an illegal pyramid like DMM says. It doesn't even have anything to do with whether you make more for being higher on the pyramid. It's illegal because the downline who get the tapes can't sell the to anyone. The tapes are useless to people who are not in the business. Now the diamonds may dispute this but if the tapes had value outside of quixtar, I gurantee you that they would be sold outside of quixtar.
Tony, your turn.
Hey Qlbog,
I think the Forum is great!I stopped posting in there for awhile, but I think I might return to the pro Q side of the ring. Congrats on a long running forum dude.
Also, David, I thought you were talking about ME again- the dude mowing the lawn in his undies. Actually I DO like to clear snow in my undies.Uh oh, did I say that out loud? ;-)
As far as your numbers go lawdawg, you CAN'T take Amways numbers and mix them with quixtars numbers, it's simply unacceptable. You also can't take 2004 data and intermix it with 1970's data. Just because something happend in 1970's, doesn't mean it's the same scenario today.
Also to df, "how many quixtar only diamonds are there?" Lawdawg answered that one for you. 31 of them.
Michael,
Be honest about those numbers. When we asked how many "Quixtar Only" Diamonds there are, you know perfectly well we mean how many Diamonds signed up in Quixtar without an existing body of IBO's from the previous Amway Corp. and have risen to the ranks of Diamond.
I look forward to that answer.
My question is, why be so secretive if this is such a great business opportunity. The success numbers should speak for themselves and should be the number one thing promoted. The problem is that those successes don't exist on any large scale. The numbers, in reality, reflect huge and consistent losses by the IBO's.
You think we are critics here because we want failure for all of you existing IBO's. That's absolutely not the case. The biggest problem that most of us have revolves around the huge disconnect between what we were shown in the plan, and what actually transpires in this business. Overwhelmingly, the experience of the critics on this site contradicts everything that you, Tony, and every other current IBO say.
The numbers are numbers. They do not have any bias or prejudices. They are just numbers. And numbers are very important to legitimate businesses.
Numbers tell a large part of the story of any business. Profitability can be expressed in number form, and so can loss. Numbers can show trends and numbers can give us things like averages. They are a tool to be used.
And when you look at the numbers in Amway North America from 1970 to 1999 and then Quixtar from 1999 to the present, they do not shed a good light on AmQuix. They show only 31 current diamonds. If the two to five year plan truly worked, don't the pro AmQuix people think there would be more then 31 current diamonds, especially dealing in a time span that covers between 7 and 18 cycles (36 years between 1970 and now, and a 2 to 5 year plan)?
Then there also are the numbers of people who have claimed to have lost signifcant portions of money. Also, there are claims of tool money that dwarfs what these big pins make in AmQuix. Again, the numbers don't lie, and again, they tell a story that is very negative.
Last, Tony, nobody is saying duplication is bad. Franchising works, and when a franchise is successful, it is usually because of duplication. The problem with Amway/Quixtar is the business simply does not work. What you get is duplication of a bad system! Again, look at the numbers. They tell a very interesting story.
DMM,
All I asked was for the number of AMWAY only diamonds were there for 2004-2005, and NOBODY seems to have an answer. There were 31 quixtar only Diamonds last year- who cares if they came from Amway?
I truly am trying to understand the critics point of view, but you keep skewing the numbers only to make it LOOK like quixtar is a losing opportunity.
If your trying to lead us to believe amway/quixtar is one in the same, show me the Amway numbers from the rest of the world last year- including Korea. NOT including North America.
The quixtar- only Diamonds issue shouldn't even be a debate since you guys are trying to convince us it's one in the same.
Again, Forget about Quixtar's numbers for a second, lets focus on the Amway numbers. Again I ask, what was Amway's numbers for 2004, 2005? How many Amway only diamonds were there last year? thats all I ask. It's a simple enough task.
I think I understand the question of how many Quixtar-only diamonds have ever broken... I'll explain it my way, and if I'm wrong, someone please straighten me out.
The question seems to be: how many people who were sponsored into Quixtar (sponsored after 9-1-99 and only into Quixtar) have become diamonds?
I know that diamonds have broken during the last 5 years, but conversly: of those diamonds that broke, how many had pre-existing downline as Amway distributors?
I believe that this question has merit (the "2-5 year plan"), although I acknowledge the sentiment (though for many reasons don't agree) that even if it took 20 years, instead of two to five years to go diamond, it would still be worth it.
"who cares if they came from Amway?" - obviously an number of us critics. Why argue the validity of the question - just answer it!
keith,
It seems the critics don't want to answer my questions either. Which is nothing unusual.
As far as your question, how many quixtar only diamonds were there? Lawdawg and David answered it. There were anywhere between 31 and 34 that qualified last year.
I've answered your questions- Now answer mine.
Don't you think Amway, Quixtar, or any other company under Alticor would openly and proudly publish to the general public their numbers of recruits, turnover rates, number of Diamonds, emeralds, etc., if they didn't have anything to hide? So, both the critics and their own people, wouldn't be questioning and having the discussions we are currently having.
Honestly, I have never heard of or seen a company that brags so much about their success and how the are the answer to everyones problems, period. Yet, ironically, they don't "open the books" for us to see. Makes you wonder, doesn't? I mean just get down to a basic, common since level of logical thinking, and you clearly see there is something wrong with this picture. There is no denying it!
Aww, Michael, you're never going to make it as a kingpin conman as long as your misdirections and bad logic are so transparent. You're only asking those questions to dodge answering the first one, and to set up a straw man to say we're at best no better than you. What question did you answer, anyway?
The thing is, we already know what the answer is, we just want one of you guys to admit to it. Someone thought it ironic that after more than five years just under the new name, what is so widely and stridently touted as a "2-5 year plan for financial freedom" hadn't generated a single diamond in such a time frame. We know it because the numbers don't lie, and you should be intensely interested having staked at least part of your future financial well-being on this "business", but you just show yourselves to be in denial.
We talk about Quixtar, and lump it in with Amway North America, because they're the same thing. It's a mature phenomenon in that its statistics are stable, and we have 40+ years of data and experience from which to draw conclusions. Despite "adjustments" in the ordering and delivery methods, and a name change, there's continuity of the product lines, compensation scheme, lines of sponsorship, and particularly the parasitic MO's.
We don't really compare to Amway "the rest of the world" because those haven't become mature and stable YET. It saddens me that all those people who grew up being taught that capitalism was evil, and America the "Great Satan" or whatever, have their first real taste of American capitalism by being ripped off in a pyramid scam.
So you dodge the issue by putting it off to 2-5 years from "making the commitment". Aren't these guys committed that are sincerely convinced that they themselves will be "free" in those 2-5 years, and close their screeds with "GO DIAMOND"? Oh, if (on the off chance) they don't make it, they just weren't really committed yet, right? And it's still worth it if it takes 20? How much do you lose in those 20 years, only to come out with what could best be described as a decent living with NO benefits?
And is it really worth it, knowing that the only way you've done it is to have thousands beneath you losing money to you? Now, really living in denial, your refusal to understand that your pyramid is operating illegally will carry no weight if the regulatory agencies ever get around to examining it and apply the laws. You could well put in years of your life only to have the whole thing collapse or be shut down. Oops.
Tony - "How many Quixtar only Diamonds?? I don't know. I don't care"
I would care, if I were in that
(ha ha) "business"
There is a difference in attaining a certain belt level in martial arts and becoming a successful Quixtar guy.
In martial arts YOU develop the skill set and discipline to attain certain levels.
In Quixtar, its up to other people to accept the fact that prices are piss poor value, and its more inefficient to buy this way.
AND its up to other people to accept the system and begin the laughable quest to financial freedom that you are attempting.
You must understand, people will see this for what it is, if they have common sense and are not so desparate about their position in life. You can't control what people think, thus, you can't control (ahem)"your" business.
Although AMO's do a good job of controlling a number of people, you, M&M and Michael, for instance.
Hey Tony. Nice to hear from you. Please allow me to respond.
Your first point:
I still stand by my comments. I was not contradicting myself.
I was merely curious to know if the cash made by your friend was through retail sales OR from the 'networking only' model.
Then, I went on to express the viewpoint that it is very difficult to make large amounts of cash with the 'networking only' model. Granted, it's not impossible, but nonetheless very difficult and takes a great deal of work.
Your second point:
Yes, point noted, the diamonds don't pay for the seminars - so I could have expressed myself a little better. They do, however, laugh all the way to the bank with all the cash from the IBOs' pockets!
The point that I was trying to make is that the level of Diamond is promoted as being something that is very easy to achieve. It was promoted as such when the plan was shown to me. So yes, I have seen a plan.
The reality of it is that reaching the level of Diamond takes rather a lot of hard work - and in my experience, the Diamonds are very charismatic people - not your average Joe. So I was making the point that their talents could easily be used elsewhere - perhaps more profitably and more ethically.
I do not believe that standing on a stage, telling people that they are broke and charging them for the privilege is an ethical way to make money.
One final request if I may: Please do not call me a moron or a critbot. I have a differing point of view to your good self as regards multilevel marketing - but there's no need to be rude. I have never called you (or anyone else on here) a rude name. I should be grateful if you would show me the same courtesy.
The point about "Quixtar only diamonds" is how Keith puts it. There hasn't been a single diamond that started in the last 2 to 5 years, yet everyone showing the plan still says it is a 2 to 5 year plan. When you look at the numbers, the plan, as shown, is either an out and out lie, or at best, a gross misprepresentation.
But it shouldn't surprise anyone. The big pins are confirmed liars. When Quixtar started, the big pins vehiminently denied big tool profits. Now these same big pins admit up to $100,000 in tool profits exist. So when the leaders are confirmed liars, it makes sense it trickles down in the organization.
...And the admission on the diamonds' part, that there IS tools income (albeit ONLY $100K per year), when less than 5 years ago they vehemently denied its' existence, is not being addressed by the pro-Quix contingent.
After all, when is a liar not a liar?
Even funnier that we know that the tools income can FAR EXCEED $100K - is that their next "confession"? I think that this is an issue far more serious than has been torn apart and examined here.
BTW, can anyone explain what is magical about "only" 100K? Does an imaginary "cap" lend the previously denied tools income any additional legitimacy?
Just wondering.
Michael,
Our question to you was simple and straight forward:
How many people who were sponsored into Quixtar (sponsored after 9-1-99, and only into Quixtar)with no previous Amway downline have become diamonds?
Answer: ZERO
Even if it were one or two or three, would that beg the question as to why so few? How many people have signed up as IBO's since 9-1-1999?
How many people have to lose money before Quixtar and its IBO's will admit there is a problem?
The kingpins will only admit what it forced upon them.
For anyone reading this. There are ample franchising opportunities that don't involve network marketing that can yield a tremendous lifestyle. Do your research and find a proven system that gives you a high probablity of succes. Quixtar is not one of those opportunities.
The Buzzard:
tell me how charismatic Ron Puryear, Theron Nelson, Terry Felber, Jim Harstad and Toshi Taba are, please.
Kendall,
look at the Achieve magazine every month. How many got to diamond without Quixtar? Plus look how many achieve Platinum every month.
I really don't care when someone got in. If they got in 15 years ago and slogged around in Amway and Quixtar provided the opportunity to go Diamond then what's the issue?
"2-5 years" is the amount of time needed by working it intelligently and to maximum potential. It is not just a plain timeline, like let's start the stopwatch and see what happens. Most people take "breathers" in between the effort. But its been done many times in 2 years. That's a fact and it doesn't mean it can't be done again.
It's 2-5 years of effort, not 2-5 years.
By the way, tell me, Kendall, about that marvelous opportunity out there about franchising. I'd sure like to know. Let's discuss it.
Emminemm:
I'm going to disappoint you and not answer your question because I have not come across the people whom you speak of.
I was prospected back in 1999 but never signed up. I did listen to a few of those mindbending tapes though. The names of the Diamonds (as I recall them) were Craig Deane, Bert Gulick and Brian Hayes. There are a few more whose names I do not recall. Those high pins who I heard speak, did have a certain skill or charisma when they spoke on stage - which I think is what's needed to make it to a high level.
However, I think that these days - now that the 'cat is out of the bag' - it is much more difficult to make it to diamond than it was in the days before the internet. This is why I suggested that someone who has the talent for speaking and getting people to listen to them - as the diamonds certainly do - would be well suited to being a professional salesman.
So once again, Emm, I apologise for disappointing you by not answering the question that you posed - but I think that is better than my simply making something up. Maybe you (or someone else) can answer the question for me? I get the impression that you were leading us somewhere with it.
emminemm,
If you're truely interested, you can contact me: slugpoo@hotmail.com
Tools are intended to educate the business owners, and help them build their business. Of course they're not intended for resale to clients!! When you buy a book in college isn't it to help educate yourself?? Does the fact that you then don't turn it around and sale it to someone else make college a scam?? NO! It was intended for YOU, to learn somehting! Same with the books and CDs in this business - they're designed for education, not for resale! That makes it as legal as college!
dmm, life is a risk! Business is a risk! 95% of small businesses fail within their 1st 5 years - and I learned That in College!! I know a guy who went $90,000 in debt to start a paintball business and 2 years later he was Out of business!! But there are Other paintball businesses that are successful in the area.
You say the business doesn't work. Thats hilarious. Tell that to Joe Markwiecz, Doug Weir, Alan Leininger, Larry Winters, Phil Davies, RW Weaver, Danny Snipes, Mike Bundy, Mike Waechter, Matt Grotewald, Jarrod Maleno, Steve Fratarcangeli, Bob Barto, Lonny Purkizer, Vince Rush, Dave Fallet, Lance Redfield, Dave Dusalt, Paul Kopecky, the Duncans, etc. Theres a few off the top of my head who would disagree that this works, not to mention my 22 yr old sponsor!!
kendall, you say you're not trying to cause "failure for all of you existing IBO's" but isn't that what you're doing? How many people in just the past few months have gotten started as IBO's and then found this site and quit! there was another one just recently! How pathetic! You see the plan and decide to give it a try and 2 weeks later you stumble across this site, and just quit! Because of someone Else's failure? If I had that attitude, I would have never made it thru college or gotten my blackbelt!
rocket> There is a difference in attaining a certain belt level in martial arts and becoming a successful Quixtar guy.
In martial arts YOU develop the skill set and discipline to attain certain levels.
T> well Same with quixtar: you have to develop certain skills and discipline to be able to develop teams and hold them together, and deal with all the different types of personality.
And also, you don't have to be charismatic to be successful at this. If you've read Personality Plus and understand the 4 basic temperments and if you knew all the people in this business, you'd see that cholerics can be successful, just as Phlegmatics, or sanguines. There are people who hit high levels that are Not extroverted personalities. Especially when they started! But people can develop In to more dynamic speakers also. (not to mention, if you believe rocket, it doesn't matter if you're charismatic, it doesn't depend on you, just sponsor 6 who are and you're still a Diamond! right rocket?)
buzzard, sorry if I insulted you, I don't have time to check the archives to see if you were "mean" to anyone, but in case you didn't notice there just a little bit of name calling going on here, especially by critbots. So sorry that I called you a moron, but I will not apologize for calling you a critbot - because you ARE! There are critics, and then there's critbots, you fall close to the border, but some of your views (imho) make you a critbot.
To answer you question, I don't know of Anyone who makes $124,000 from retailing products! Diamonds making $124,000 in 1 month have done it by developing teams and "breaking Platinums". So yes, that check was mainly from teaching people to do whats he's done.
buzz> I went on to express the viewpoint that it is very difficult to make large amounts of cash with the 'networking only' model. Granted, it's not impossible, but nonetheless very difficult and takes a great deal of work.
1st of all, ANYTHING worth having takes a great deal of work! 2nd, you say "its hard to make large amounts of money with the 'networking only' model" - as opposed to what?? Retailing?? I think it would be A LOT harder making $124,000 in 1 month by retailing!! "Networking" is how Diamonds make their money! You get paid for creating volume and breaking 7500pv legs. You go Platinum, and then you help 6 people go platinum and then you make 4% training bonuses for each 7500pv group you have, along with growth bonuses, etc.
buzz> I do not believe that standing on a stage, telling people that they are broke and charging them for the privilege is an ethical way to make money.
T> and This is one example of what makes you a Critbot!! You just said you were prospected in '99 but never got started, so how would YOU know what Emeralds and Diamonds say from stage?? I've never EVER heard Anyone from stage call the audience "broke"!! YOU ARE A STINKING CRITBOT!!
And I'm waiting for a little more input on those checks!! Hahahaha! I knew you stinking critbots were pathetic! You say the only way the Diamonds make any big $ is thru the tools (based on what?) and then when I provide Evidence that there's good $$ from just Quixtar (eg. a Diamonds checks for $124,000 in 1 MONTH) you got Nothing!! Anything to say?? (Get ready for the "Critbot tapespeak") :P
Sure life is a risk, and many businesses do fail, Tony, but we aren't talking about paintball, we are talking about Quixtar. Over 99% of all IBO's quit. In fact, Quixtar itself says nearly 2 out of every 3 IBO's don't renew every year! 95% failure rate is a high number, and Quixtar is even worse.
And speaking of the 2 - 5 year plan, em, here's two pertinent questions. First, how many people in the last 2 - 5 year cycle signed up for Quixtar, and two, out of these signees, how many people made it to diamond/financial freedom.
Does anyone know the answer to these questions? We know the answer to the second question is zero, and from extrapolation, we know the total IBO number usually hovers around 300,000, and that 67% quit a year. That means 200,000 IBO's sign up a year, so that in the past five years, 1,000,000 Quixtar IBO's have signed up. And again, out of these 1,000,000, a grand total of ZERO have made it to diamond.
What does this say about the 2 - 5 year plan? The answer is, either it is a gross misrepresentation, or it is an out and out lie. Em might say the 2 - 5 years may not represent "real time", but "work time", but do circle drawers make this distinction when showing the plan?
In the end, the numbers tell the story. Quixtar is a bad investment.
Emm-
You didn't learn in college that 95% of all businesses fail in the first 5 years - that is Amaspeak!
The statement is not true, the SBA numbers bear that out. This lie has been addressed in many previous posts.
I think perhaps, my friend, that your memory is slipping.
And the business does not work for the great bulk of participants, depending on how you define "work". I define it as making more money than you spend, regardless of "tax benefits". Oh, and generating enough revenue versus time and efoort invested to justify participation.
I'm sorry, but at $115 per month gross revenue average, including retail profit, it just doesn't make sense. Bigger success is based on the "if-come", and on the ongoing participation of a lot of people content with the above average. A doubtful scenario.
Does that make sense?
Sorry, Emm.
It was Tony; I know that you know better already :-)
Hey Tony
Nice to hear from you again. I merely speak from experience when I mention the methods used by the higher pins to get prospects on board.
I attended three open meetings and listened to up to about twenty of the tapes. The overriding technique used was to explain that the normal world of work is futile, and that Amway offers the key to the magic door of money for nothing. You will get all of the time in the world and as much money as you need within two to five years. I have found that this can be the case in the tiniest minority of IBOs.
I base my opinions on the evidence that is before me. The evidence shows that a small minority of people can make money at this - by working extremely hard - as in the case of the gentleman who has these cheques to show you.
I see that many visitors to this site (and others) have worked extremely hard and gained very little. In many cases lost very much financially.
Again, Tony, I take exception to you calling me a critbot. It adds nothing to the substance of your argument and is, quite frankly, offensive.
If your mission is to offend someone who takes an alternative view point to your own, then congratulations, you have just offended me again.
If I call you a silly name, will that make my statements more correct than if I do not? Will it make my argument more persuasive or less persuasive?
Keith> Emm-
You didn't learn in college that 95% of all businesses fail in the first 5 years - that is Amaspeak...
I think perhaps, my friend, that your memory is slipping.
T> I know you caught the mistake Keith, but you have to admit, thats just funny. But I know you're the type that can laugh at yourself. ;) Oh, and btw, no I 1st heard that 95% figure in college about 7-8 years ago.
Buz, 1st of all i'd like to know what tapes you listened to that promised this business was "the magic door to money for nothing" or "You will get all of the time in the world and as much money as you need within two to five years". I never heard those!! We say this isn't get rich quick and we say, it takes work!!
Buzz> I see that many visitors to this site (and others) have worked extremely hard and gained very little.
T> who?? who has worked VERY hard, and HOW DO YOU KNOW!! Did you watch them make 20 calls a day or show 5 plans a week for 12 months?? How do YOU know what anyones work ethic was. Because they said so on a blogsite?? That's what I talking about when I say "legitiment research". People think looking online is "due diligence". HA!
And Buz, when you guys stop calling us ambots and quixbots, then I'll stop refering to critics (who do little to no real reseach and are simply skeptical and closed-minded, repeating rumors and lies) as critbots. Until people like who who do the above mentioned things are critbots. Not trying to hurt your feelings or make my argument more or less persuasive. you simply have a miscewed view of the business, or you are straight out lieing.
Because I have never heard anyone stand on stage and call the audience broke, and YOU said that they did! (a LIE!!) Then when I called you out on it, you changed your tune and said that you heard tapes where they said the normal world of work was futile and they said this was easy money for nothing!! ANOTHER LIE!!
You hold no water in my book. Because You are a critbot. You speak in half truths, twisting things around, and take things out of context to make Quixtar look bad.
Keith is not a critbot, sometimes close though. ;) He views MLM and network marketing as a legit form of business, he just has a problem with some of the tool money. I can live and discuss with that.
What I can't live with is critbots twisiting #'s, repeating outright lies, saying Diamonds laugh all the way to the bank, they tell you how rotten and broke you are, they're materialistic, the steal from the collections, etc!
Hey Tony
There are plenty of people who post regularly on here, who worked hard and made little or no profit. You've read the comments haven't you?
I can assure you that I have heard non-Amwayers referred to as broke from the stage, so I am not telling a lie. The tapes are made from recordings of people who speak at functions are they not? I heard it said on tape.
Like I said, I speak from my own experiences. I am not making anything up.
I have never called you (or anyone else) an ambot or a quixbot (or any other kind of bot for that matter). If you feel the need to give out insults - I guess that's your choice.
The 95% of all businesses failing in the first 5 years is entirely an MLM/ financial scam/ biz opp construction - so if you heard it in college, it was prom a professor or TA involved in one of those. It's just ignorant, but like a lot of urban legends, has taken on mythical proportions. Don't repeat it. Let it die a well deserved death.
Don't make ME accuse YOU of repeating outright lies :-)
Ton, The Buzzard is spot on. In 41/2 years of the Puryear org, down through the Duncans, I've heard plenty of non-edifying stuff talked about "broke people", only very indirectly aimed away from the audience. For crying out loud, you don't have to be a psychologist to figure out the process.
Hey Buz, now you're changing your story!! you said:
"I do not believe that standing on a stage, telling people that they are broke and charging them for the privilege is an ethical way to make money."
THATS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!! Like I said, I've never heard Anyone from stage tell the audience that they're a bunch of broke losers!
Now you switch it to 'well I meant people outside the business'. To be honest, I don't hear too many people from stage talk about non-Qx people unless they're talking about negative people they've encountered, which in that case that person may have been broke.
Point is, your original statement was an outright lie to make us look bad - which is one reason why your're a critbot. Now Keith is speaking about his expereince in Ron's group, not twisting things out of context. All I can say is I'm in BWW under Joe M, and I don't hear many people talk about non-Qx people, at all!
Good afternoon, Tony.
On many tapes that I listened to, there was an overriding theme that those not in Amway were broke losers. They were broke because they had not made it in Amway and losers because they did not see the light and accept the "key to the magic door"*.
There was also the implication that people who are in Amway (although not losers) are still broke. The reason that they are broke is because they have not made it to direct and above yet.
So once again, I still stand by my original comment, that I have heard people on stage, telling members of the audience that they are broke.
And I reiterate that I have not told a lie about any of my personal experiences in the group for which I was prospected.
I think that Keith Sr. put it much more eloquently that I ever could - to paraphrase: "...the statements about broke people are only indirectly aimed away from the audience..."
*Note to readers:
"key to the magic door" is a phrase that I made up. I never heard it on tape or on stage. If I said that I did, it certainly would be an outright lie. Mind you, I think it's a pretty neat little phrase. Maybe the big pins should start using it.
Quixtar is the key to the magic door that leads you out of the futile world of employment to the wonderful land of independent business ownership, where for the price of a few tapes and a few seminars, you sit on the beach as the cash rolls in. Marvellous!
Any unbiased critics following this? Now Buz is changing his story back to they were talking about the audience, but NOW its just "the implication that the audience was broke". Sounds good Buzz! Down with Quixtar, Qx baaaad!
Sorry your experience wasn't the same as mine bro. I don't have Emeralds and Diamonds telling me I'm a broke loser, and I really don't here too many of them blasting the average person outside the business, again, unless they're talking abouta person that was negative and gave them a hard time!
I love that Phil Davies CD where he talks about his brother (who was negative and laughed at him) over heard his mom ask Phil "what times your party" and his brother asked "what party", and Phil said "my retirement party".
And then on the same CD Phil says he finally got some revenge when his brother's family was looking at his new car and his sister-in-law asked "how much does a car like this cost?", and he replied, "well, it retails for $175,000", then his brother asked "how much is it a month?" and he looked at him and said "it doesn't cost anything a month, I paid cash". And his brother never said a word the rest of the night.
Hello Tony
I think you are splitting hairs here. I never changed my story, I merely added to it each time you nitpicked.
Here are the situations:
1. High pins calling people in the audience and /or non-amwayers broke (losers).
2. High pins implying that the audience members and / or non-amwayers are broke (losers).
The above situations are not mutually exclusive. I have witnessed all of the above. At no point did I say I changed my comments. I merely stood by them and added to them.
Do I think Quixtar is bad? Yes, Sir, I do. People told me lies and bent the truth. From what I can see, people still tell lies and bend the truth today - I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.
I am eternally glad that I did not sign up. The only reason that I still post here all these years later is that it still makes my blood run cold to see how I much I could have ruined myself by getting involved.
Buz, I really don't care you're a critbot, you didn't "add" to the story, you changed what you said - your original statement made us look bad by making it look like the people talking from stage insult the audience and make $ doing it!
And then each time it changed, from insulting the IBOs in the audience, then insulting non-IBOs, then implying insults to IBOs and so on...
Buz> I do not believe that standing on a stage, telling people that they are broke and charging them for the privilege is an ethical way to make money.
then...
B> I can assure you that I have heard non-Amwayers referred to as broke from the stage,
B> On many tapes that I listened to, there was an overriding theme that those not in Amway were broke losers.
then...
B> There was also the implication that people who are in Amway (although not losers) are still broke.
Say whatever you want Buz, I'm sure you heard whatever you heard, the problem is, you twisted it around to make us look bad, then when I called you out on it, you "clarified" your statements... "well what I really meant was.."
So who's bending the truth now - the critbots!
So, Tony, from what I understand you saying... Some insults are OK, some aren't, but because multiple insults were cited by Buzzard he is somehow changing his story?
Man, your logic, while always confusing, is REALLY OTW now.
Note to the general audience: listen to a couple of seminar tapes, or even better, CORE tapes. Analyze what YOU hear, and make your own decision. If you can, make sure that they're the tapes that would make a direct look at his newbie Godzilla Fired-UP! gung ho rippin' his chest-hair out distributor and say "I don't know if your new guy should listen to HIM just yet" with a worried look on his face... Ex-IBO's, I know that you know what I mean (right, Dorothy?)... Oh, "those" tapes.
Yeah, THOSE ones :-)
Should give you a flavor, at least.
Hey Tony
Nice to hear from you again as always.
I don't think that Quixtar needs me to make it look bad!
I can assure you that I wasn't twisting anything. I haven't twisted since last summer!
Anyway, this thread will be going off the main page pretty soon. So this is going to be my last word on the subject. Do feel free to have yours!
That said, I certainly look forward to going a few more rounds with you when something else interesting comes up on the blog - as it often does.
Cheers.
Keith what are you talking about?? Buz straight up frickin lied! When I called him out, he changed his story around, and continued to each time - read my last post! Your logic is off.
The important thing with this kind of business model is to understand it for what it is worth. Much the same as money itself is not good or evil, but it is how it is used as a tool by different people to achieve different things. This business model is no different. It is a tool. Some people abuse it. As a result these people are generally not very successful becuase in abusing the business model they in turn abuse the very people that are helping their business work. (and in any business if you do this, to your staff or your customers you will get the same thing)
Which brings me to another point which is this; this business model is nothing more that organised buying. Large number s of people = buying power, which allows the business to leverage decent prices, and decent payouts. Referals into this buying community see that proit shares are distributed evenly amoungst those who did the work to refer people to buy.
Now with a model like this, unfortunatley, people get lazy. They refer several people and then expect to get rich. They don't. So they start to sit harder on these people telling them that they should buy more etc...
Remember, the issue here is not the business model, but the people using it. Individual people are very unpredictable, however large groups of people are generally very predictable. Hence, a small group of 6 or seven people is not going to return large consistent results. People who press foward with continued referals will find other people who also see opportunity. These people in turn will also find referals, growing the overall number of people in the buying community. which effectivley increases your buying power (or in this case, your profit share). The larger group of people will produce more consistent results.
Much the same as any other business, this one will require a lot of work before any substantial rewards are retuned. However, the barriers to entry are substantially smaller, and the risk significantly less.
This model is about redirecting where people spend their money. If people are buying stuff already, they could be buying it through a buying community that ensures they see some profit share back from the money that they were spending anyway.
quixtar is for people who have low self esteem and feeble minds. they tell you you have no boss but your told what to do all the time. quixtar is a destructive cult and it will only be a matter of time before everyone knows it.
If you’re on here to research the Quixtar business, one thing you have to keep in mind is that Anyone can post Anything on this Blogsite. You don’t even know if there’s any truth to it. Even if someone says, “I tried it and it didn’t work� you have no idea what kind of work that person actually put forth.
People can say whatever they want, the truth of the matter is: in 1979 the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) stated that Multi-Level, or Network Marketing (Private Franchising) is a legal and legitimate form of business. Quixtar is also a Member of the Better Business Bureau (BBB) and has the highest possible rating. Not to mention we have Partner Stores affiliated with us such as Circuit City, Barnes&Noble, BassPro Shops, Office Max, Disney, and many more. Quixtar is simply like an online mall, where you get paid for creating volume. Just like any other business.
People like to bring up that Quixtar has had lawsuits filed against them, but the truth is ALL big businesses have lawsuits. Walmart is sued once every 2 hours!! Over 4,000 times last year alone, currently involved in over 9,000 lawsuits!! One involves a class action lawsuit filed by employees that were sometimes locked in and forced to finish their duties off the clock, or forced to work during lunch breaks with no compensation. Are you gonna stop shopping there? Probably not.
Why? Cause you don’t blame an entire company for the bad decisions of a few. There are many different WM stores with many different managers; you don’t blame a whole company for a few bad ones. Quixtar is the same. There are MANY different teams in Quixtar. Each uses Quixtar as their supplier of goods & services, but may operate a little differently. Just like the NFL, there are many different teams, some are good, some are bad. Some people on here have had bad experiences with the team they were on. I have not! So just make sure the team were involved with is a good group. I’ve traveled and met many different people on many different teams. I’ve never seen any incidents or abuses like some people claim on here.
Some of the critics have problems with the prices. Some of the products you’ll find are more expensive then other places, some are cheaper, and some are about the same. The important thing is to compare “apples to apples�. Many of our products are more concentrated, which you have to factor in when considering the cost/value. Many of our products are simply higher quality! You don’t say “a $40,000 Lexus is a rip-off when you can get a Cavalier for $10,000!� That’s “apples to oranges�. And many of our popular Exclusive products like the Nutrilite protein bars, and XS Energy Drink, are equal to or cheaper than the competition in price. I personally saved $59 on a lawnmower I bought thru myself, as opposed to Sears, it was even cheaper than Walmart. I saved $48 on my digital camera, I bought thru Circuit City because I bought it online, thru our site!
Some people say it’s a pyramid. 1st of all pyramids are illegal, so I almost laugh at this claim. But lets discuss what a “pyramid� is: that’s where you’ve got a guy at the top that makes most the money, and he’s got a few people under him, and they’ve got a few people under them, and so on and so on. And the guy at the top makes more than the guy under him, who makes more than the guy under him, etc. Well think about what I just described. Isn’t that ANY typical corporation? With 1 CEO at the top, and then a few VP’s, and then a few General Managers under them, and then some district managers or area supervisors, and then the everyday employees at the bottom! Doesn’t your boss make more than you, and his boss makes more than him!
Only in OUR business model, just because someone refers you to the business doesn’t mean they’ll make more than you! If you out work them, you’ll out earn them!! You CAN make more than the person who helps you get started. Not to mention you don’t get paid for signing people up! You get paid for creating volume and helping people hit certain levels of success.
People get hung up on “making money off people�. At my job if I refer someone to the company, the corporation pays me a $1000 referal bonus. Buts it’s a 1 time bonus. With Quixtar, every month that you help someone succeed, you get a benefit too! That’s awesome! Not to mention isn’t your company making $$ off you? Yes, they are – that’s why they pay you!
Some people have a problem with the tools that are available. First and foremost, these tools are Optional!! You never have to buy a book, or CD, or go to a meeting that you don’t want to. It’s not like college where you’re forced to buy overpriced books that you sometimes never even use, or were written by the guy teaching the class! Our tools are optional.
Some people complain that people make money off these tools and say that they try to hide it! First of all, we come right out in our weekly seminar and say that there is money available not only thru Quixtar, but also from our training & support system. So there’s no secret. And of course people are going to make money selling books and CD’s, etc. Knowledge has value!! Don’t you think your college makes money off selling books, CD’s (aka knowledge)? Of course they do, that’s the Only way they make $$. If you wanted to go to other types of business seminars, or get financial counseling you might pay 1000’s of dollars! Our seminars and trainings are sometimes $8 for a 4 hour session! Or $90 for a 3-day conference. I paid $120 for one of my college texts; we have books in this business for 6, 8, and $10! And it’s all optional and has a refund policy!
People also complain about the success rate. Unfortunately, with the low start-up cost, almost anyone can register. But of course, not just Anyone can own a successful business. Just like not everyone can be a professional athlete, but many people are! Not everyone can be a doctor or lawyer, but many people are! Think about the things you’ve succeeded at that other people didn’t. Maybe you got your black-belt? How many people quit a Martial Art every year? Maybe you made it to Eagle Scout? How many Scouts fall short? Maybe you played college sports, how many don’t? People quit stuff all the time, this is no different. Some people try it, and find out it wasn’t for them. That’s fine! Other people just like the products and like to get the rebates, so they renew every year but aren’t trying to hit the higher levels, and that’s OK. But then you’ll have some of these negative, skeptical critics that say it’s a scam! Well the guy who personally helped me get started is only 22 years old, still in college and is making about $2500 a month!!
So I’ve seen with my own eyes that it works! I suggest doing some real research and not just reading some guy on a blogsite that says his upline stole his dog! Check out some of the facts at quixtarfacts.com or ibofacts.com. See what Internet Retailer or Business 2.0 has to say. Quixtar was rated the #1 site in both Beauty, and Health & Wellness. This is a top notch corporation with top notch training!!
Posted by: Tony | June 30, 2005 7:19 PM