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May 23, 2005
Monday Reader Mail: 44
By QBlog in Reader Mail
Today's Reader Mail demonstrates that people do not appreciate being deceived.
name: Robert C.
date: May 16, 2005
message: First, I have no idea what "bloggin" is. All I know is a few things. First, I believe in the efficacy of network marketing. Secondly, I've been involved in the "old" Amway - tired of the order pick-up, prepay, and attempting delivery and gettin paid by my customers.
I bought in to Amway because of an incredible presentation which captivated me until I thought (then confirmed) I heard the word Amway.
Now, (May, 2005) I am contacted by a friend about this "new" e-commerce business. Quixtar being the marketing "agency" behind it. The more I listen and learn, the more I suspect as well as communicate to the "mentor" "coach" who chastises me for trying a multitude of network marketing companines, I say to him "this sounds remarkably like Amway." Only today *(May 16) do I discover that this so called new company is in fact the "New" Amway. Disgust and dissappointment.
If there is nothing to hide nor be ashamed of re Amway, why the dammed (sorry) secrecy and deception of calling and naming it what and as it is?
I just want to get straight answers to legitmate questions before I give it all up to pursue my own dreams (sound familiar?).
I just want a legitimate e-commerce business that I can be proud of and not be ashamed of mentioning its real name.
Any help and or advise would be most appreciated.
Sinderely,
Robert C.
Unfortunately, I have no advice except to say that Robert should fully educate himself in all aspects of e-commerce and multilevel marketing. I imagine the MLM crowd will advise that Robert join their MLM because it's different, unique and immune to the problems and deception that Robert seems to detest. With that said, what advice would you give to Robert?
Comments
Follow the advice from Pink Floyd delivered in one of their hit songs from the early 1980's.
RUN.....RUN.....RUN......RUN......RUN....RUN......RUN
You better run all day, and run all night.......
If you didn't like Amway before, what makes you think you'll like it now? Go with your gut instincts. That's what they're there for.
The solution is obvious - join MY MLM ;-)
Seriously, though- I never did appreciate the curiosity approach, as it was used on me. I was one of those prospects that, if you made a good case for the business, you could call it horse manure and I would do it- if it made sense.
I learned a somewhat more subtle curiosity approach when I was actively building "the business." The difference was that if someone asked me "is this Amway?", I responded "Yes it is- what do you know about it"
If they were turned off, I didn't take it personally - I left 'em alone.
My advice as regards Am/Quix - in the infamous words of Monty Python:
Run away!
Or at least take the advice of the IBO's who are doing it right and running retail, tool free businesses, and follow their lead- stay away from the bloodsucking tool pushers, and go with an independent LOS that doesn't rape and pillage. Or create your own.
Or, if you really like MLM, find several reputable (?) retail oriented MLM's and build 'em all - Of my knowledge, Am/Quix was about the only MLM that forbade (or strongly discouraged) multiple businesses.
You are always welcome to email me (my email link actually works).
Remember, if you don't follow Pink Floyd's advice, and get yourself suckered into this crackpot of a business opportunity, then you will find yourself following the same exact advice that the kingpins follow, which is contained in the lyrics from one of Van Halen's big hits - "Runnin' with the Devil".
Rob, you have to be very leary of anyone that says "Quixtar sucks, but join MY mlm!" go ahead an compare his mlm to quixtar and see how it rates up. See what top analysts say. Get over the fact that Quixtar and Amway are both owned by Alticor. Quixtar doesn't have product pick-up, it's shipped directly to you. You don't have to be paid by clients, they order online or over the phone, you don't handle stocking, returns, etc. Quixtar handles it all! You need to check out www.quixtar.com and look at some of the partner stores and name brand products they carry now. Comparing Quixtar to Amway is like comparing a Mustang to a Model-T. Both made by Ford, but juuust slightly different! If you really want to do an e-commerce / network marketing business, Quixtar is undeniably the market leader!!
Hello one more pro-quixscam... welcome... what about average income $118/month. what would top analysts say about that?
what about families and marriage ruined by AM/AUIX-SCUM?
Quixtar us nothing but a clevery designed scam for cult-addicts.. Rob!!! pls pls stay away from this...
Goodluck
Well p'SAD I guess if you want to be average, you just keep being average. Maybe Rob doesn't consider himself to be average.
How about the marriages/families SAVED by this business, or really by this team of people! Cause thats what I've seen, not ONE broken family or relationship.
Rob, you can listen to random skeptical people like prasad, or you can look into it yourself. See what Deloitte & Touche, Dun & Bradstreet, Business 2.0 and Internet Retailer say about Quixtar. Check out www.quixtarfacts.com.
Hi Tonyhole,
I am average and making MORE THAN $118/month :-)).... and your cult is so great, its members are making $118/month.
I guess its nice being average!! huh?
Does anyone with a brain see the fallacy in p'SAD's argument? I make alot more than $118 a month in MY job too. And also in the business. There are a lot of people who get in and never really DO anything. There are others that just like the products as i stated in another post. Those 2 types of people bring the average down. If you want to make the business work, you can. Dispite what the "average" is or your friend's 2nd cousin's neighbor who didn't make any money!!
"Tonyhole" wow, you really got me. Thats SO clever pissSAD! Just don't call me poopiehead, cuz then I'll tell the teacher on you!
On the other hand, don't join my MLM.
Jeez, guys, just kidding - hence the little winking smiley-face.
As the folks below said, do your research. It's pretty obvious that Am/Quix has burnt through a lot of distributors in its years of existance -it would be best to research the why behind that.
And I'm not saying that other MLM's haven't, so don't go getting all defensive on me!
It's just that they probably didn't all die, or were losers.
Sure Tonyhole, I won't call you poopiehead. As long as you are happy with your $118/month income business, go ahead and promote it..... and while you are at it, just listen to one more tape, attend that one more function that will change your life :-)). then may be your income will become $119/month. :-))
Wow, I'm reading the comments, mostly negative and hurtfull, and realize that that some how some way the lot of you have been burned some how. Now I've been in Quixtar for about a yr now and I'm below the avarage for monthly income. You know this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life, but it's also the most rewarding. You know my parents were in the old bussiness,Amway, and they came home with books read them and passed them on to me. Books like "the power of Desire", "How to win freinds and influence poeple" As a child they took me and my cousins to youth devalopement seminars. Now my mother and father didn't make big money while in Amway and in fact they devorced a few years after leaving the bussiness. Now why am I telling you this, because My mother and my father read those books and it help them in many ways but you see those books made it down to us. There four children and our outlook on life doesn't include tearing down others due to our own short coming, it's about helping others, It,s about building communities in and out of the bussiness. It's about saying you can do it instead of you can't. It's about Working together as a a team to accomplish more than we would have been able on our own. It's about geting out of our confurt zone growing and becoming acountable to our actions. You know it saddens me to have read the level of negativity about Quixtar or any bussiness. I've been involved with teams my whole life and the one thing that held me back when times were touph and my belief was down is the fact that the people I surrounded my self with were nay sayers, they pointed their fingers at the coaches, the players on the team, the reffs, the politics,But not once did these people ever respond by saying "coach what more can I do?" "Wife-what do you need from me?" Bussiness part-Is there anything I can do?"Self-where do I need to grow to become, to be so that I can do,so that I can have:A good life, a good marrage, a good financialy successfull bussiness, a good team player, a builder of people and communities, Not a denire of dreams, Not a nay sayer. Let me look at myself and grow. And let there be waves of good that come from it.Next time you go to write down something negative about anyone ask your self, Am I doning anyone any good by doing this. We both know the awnser to that one, don't we?
Dlopez... welcome to the forum. Obviously you made a wonderful post about being positive in life. But that doesn't mean, anyne can scam innocent people by talking positive.
In quixtar.. the upline turns wives against husband or vice versa... there are documented proofs to this practice... is that building somone up?
Upline asks the downline to use credit card for tools, functions if the downlines do not have money... is that being positive?
I myself have heard many tapes that you have to stay away from family and friends if they are not in business and only stay around your upline.. are you saying promoing a cult is good?
We all agree that reading books you mentioned will build self esteem, have a good marriage and strong ethics etc.. .but these kingpins are using these good things to rob people of their hard earned money. As long as these scammers con people, people like us tear them down.....
there is nothing wrong in tearing a scam down.. someone has to do it... why not us?
Here's what I would advise Robert to do, if he even is wading through all these comments.
Robert, you now know that Quixtar is connected to Amway.
Decide if Amway is a viable business, decide if you can successfully market those products and then if your answer is yes, you could use the Amway model and the Quixtar name, then give it a shot.
Only remember that which dissapoints you, also dissappoints others, so choose to start the business in a business like manner with no deception. Concentrate on teaching the members of your downline honesty, ethics, and proper business practices.
You really CAN re-invent the wheel, if you see value in "the plan". Those that sign you up are not your boss, and they can't tell you what to do, outside of the Rules of Conduct.
As for the average monthly income of $118.00, yeah its a small average, but very few other MLMs bother even publishing a figure like that...or if they do, it's buried somewhere.
DLopez said: "it's about helping others, It,s about building communities in and out of the bussiness. It's about saying you can do it instead of you can't. It's about Working together as a a team to accomplish more than we would have been able on our own. It's about geting out of our confurt zone growing and becoming acountable to our actions."
No it isn't, D. It's about making money, or it AIN'T a business. If you think you have to be in Quixtar to learn/do all those things, you are more brainwashed than you realize!
You're making LESS than 118. a month.
So, how are YOU being accountable? Profitability is the FIRST responsibility of the upline to the downline - and that I heard from Rich DeVos, in person!
Why don't you come back and brag on your business when you've been accountable in the profitability department.
Until then, you're just spouting "tape-speak" that is so much fluff in the wind. Really.
Hear Hear, Dave Robinson!
Great answer. Not pro. Not anti. Just the call for due dilligence and a call for Rob to assess his own goals. That's the most level headed thing on here.
First of all, to anyone sitting here endlessly arguing about who has a better E-commerse business....get a life. Secondly, its obvious that anyone in the lower income bracket of Quixtar (say averaging 118. a month) Its because YOUR SITTING ON YOUR BUTT READING THIS. All of you, stop acting like children. Who cares who is in what business. Your all unprofessional for bickering like a bunch of girls.
Everyone here is an adult and has the right to pick and choose who they do business with. And to be honest, acting the way you guys are. I wouldnt do business with any of you. Your all unprofessional.
Get off your butts, and go build your business...wichever one that may be.
I was involved with Quixtar last year. At first, I was so enthusiastic about "earning" big, that I did whatever my upline told me. He also said there are lots of negative but I needed to remain positive and read books. Now I had to BUY those bo0oks from my UPLINE. That sucked. When I said, They are too expensive, I will buy them from Barnes and Noble, he said, they are not available there. (LIAR LIAR)
Then I started having my doubts. All I saw and heard was people talking about QUIXTAR, DREAM, UPLINE, some stupid PETER ISLAND...I was like...DONT PEOPLE INVOLVED WITH QUIXTAR TALK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE? (like movies or foreign places for example). I gave up about after 5 months.
Their marketing model is basically flawed and the prices are VERY expensive. Why should I pay more to QUIXTAR when I can get the same deal with WalMart or BestBuy? They say that we get 3% back but...its ONLY after you have done a business worth 250 BV (100 PV).
I have realised the eternal truth.
QUIXTAR = Stupid marketing scheme where only your upline become mega rich and you go deeper in debt.
SOLUTION: Marry your Upline Kin. :))
First off, the regular IBO on the street is actually making less then $118/month. There are the platinums, emerald and diamonds skewing the average and creating a huge standard deviation. The average income is $118/month, but the "average" IBO is making less, because the average IBO doesn't wear a big pin.
Second, if you are in Amway/Quixtar for motivation but you are losing money hand over fist, you are not a real business owner. Sorry to be so blunt, the businesses exist to make money, not create teams, friendships or provide motivation. And if your business isn't making money, you should quit. And it should be no shame if you do quit, especially if you have been in for a while. It's more shameful to keep a money losing business alive out of fear of quitting then to cut your losses and learn your lesson.
Third, all the talk about AmQuix building teams or saving marriages is nothing but rhetoric. Where's the data to back any of this stuff up? There's data that says the average IBO is losing money if he spends $100/month on tools and another $20 on travel every month. But all this other propaganda doesn't make AmQuix a good business proposition.
Fourth, on the "why be average" tapespeak, Tony, look at the odds of making it to diamond. Less then 1 in 14,000 IBO's. Do you tell your downline "why be average," too? If you do, and you and your downline both become diamond, are you going to be able to find 28,000 IBO's who won't? Yes people can beat the numbers and the odds, but look at them as guides. 350,000 active North American Amway IBO's 30 years ago, and just over 300,000 Quixtar IBO's today. Did the millions who quit all just sit on their butts and do nothing? Or is there something wrong with the products? The system? Did not at least 1/10 of these "quitters" ask themselves "why be average," too, yet they still succumbed to the odds? Why is that?
Last, can we all please try and keep the discussion on a more mature level. I'm all for taking a pot shot here and there in jest, but being a bottom line guy myself, it's a little distracting reading all the childish comments from both sites of the debate. Let's try to stick to the topic at hand, which ultimately is how good a business opportunity AmQuix is.
THANK YOU Mayur for setting the best example that i could have ever needed to show the simple fact that the failure falls apon YOU not the business. So what if you didnt make 2346136 best friends when you were an IBO. Its business man not day care. But if you prefer to sit around and talk about all these forien countries that you will never see except in the movie that you had to watch on your only off day from your ball busting 45hr + job, then be my guest.
To be honest, I got in the business last year. Hear a few things I didnt like..sat on my butt ALOT and did nothing with the business and dropped out shortly after. And it wasnt Quixtar's fault that i was a lazy slacker, it was mine. I've recently decided that im tired of blaming others for my unexcuseable behavior and have reinstated my IBO memebership with Quixtar. I see the goal, and its my goal, not yours, not theirs, not anyones but my own. And Im going to do what it takes and make that small sacrafice so 2-5 years from now I can be free. And I will, dispite what you or anyone else says. Because i controll my own life. And if you or anyone else here wants to blame Quixtar for your failures, then i hope one day you realize that you are responicble for yourself and your lack of actions. Your confusing you anger twards the sucessful IBO's with jealousy. They did there work, made there sacrifices, and now there reaping the rewards.
Honest information about Quixtar from an outside sorce for anyone wanting awnsers for their questions can go to: http://www.ibofacts.com/Home.htm
Simple question, Bluefox. Are each and every one of the million IBO's who over the years went before you, tried, failed and quit all lazy, or can there be other explanations?
Sorry to burst your bubble, Bluefox, but all of my IBO friends sounded just like you sometime in the last 5 1/2 years. All are intelligent, hard working people who have succeeded in many other endeavors in life. All of them are nowhere near diamond or financial freedom. They all could be lazy, but I doubt it. I suspect there are other factors invovled.
Good luck, and maybe you will be the 1 in 14,000+ that makes it.
Bluefox:
There are a lot of people here that have shared their experiences of pain (either directly or through family/friends) because of this bad business model.
It may help some people, but it has HURT many MORE people.
You should check these stories out before you start painting with the broad 'jealously' brush.
Bluefox: as a newly reinstated IBO-bot, you should invest into a word processing program with a decent spell-check feature. Not that it would add any intelligence to your moronic rant, but at least it would not be as much of an eyesore.
I agree with DMM, let it be a logical discussion based on facts and business POV.
So here are some things that I saw other wise:
TC> Quixtar doesn't have product pick-up, it's shipped directly to you.
Imran> Not entirely true. Many teams still have that.
TC> You don't have to be paid by clients, they order online or over the phone, you don't handle stocking, returns, etc. Quixtar handles it all!
Imran> Not entirely true. If you do some retailing like SAM or XS, you better have some products at hand and have some samples ready. It is a responsibility of platinums to have some products in stock. Read Quixtar own rules.
Many retail my upline / crossline did was taking cash from client and giving them the product. Nothing wrong with it. Why make client wait for 3 days? Not every client wait that long. And also, many client returns to you and you handle returning. Any retailer out there?
TC> You need to check out www.quixtar.com and look at some of the partner stores and name brand products they carry now.
Imran> Same brand names that Diamonds used to make fun in their tapes? They scorn the poeple who like brand products. Btw can u go direct by using brand products only? They carry VERY less PV. Your statement is misleading. It’s like saying “We carry brand names but you really can’t make much PV buying or retailing them� So what’s the point?
Tony> Comparing Quixtar to Amway is like comparing a Mustang to a Model-T. Both made by Ford, but juuust slightly different!
Imran> Both have same boss, same products, same compensation plan. And almost same reputation. Btw Tony, what do you think about Amway? Was it bad, good?
Tony> If you really want to do an e-commerce / network marketing business, Quixtar is undeniably the market leader!!
Imran> How so? Avon has same number of reps world wide, same revenue as Alticor, yet quite less 'negativity' and lawsuits.
i sure as heck did not read all of these comments, just a few. anyway, i have been involved in the business for two years. iam in the Campbell Enterprise business, not the quixtar business, and not the amway business, which by the way is far beyond my time and means nothing to my generation. you mention amway to a kid in thier twenties and their like, ahhhh.. what??? so why dont all you old complain' fogies step aside and let us dominate this market, (or go out and start sponsoring some youngin's) because thats what is happening. the avg. age of a new ibo is 23. we dont know about amway and we don't care about it. as for quixtar, it's new, it's fun, and it's profitable, when you build it right. like i have said, my wife and i have been in for two years, it has strengthened us emotionlly,spiritually, and in all of our relationships with people. including our marriage. ever since month #2 in our business Campbell Enterprises(not quixtar or amway OUR BUSINESS) we have recieved a monthly PV check anywhere between $50-$250. plus my wife and i do a good $200-$300/mo. on retail clients(these are people who said NO to building a business, we do not go around finding customers or retailing items.)
All of you that have failed(quit) in this business are not neccessarly slackers, i dont doubt you have put work into your business, but was it the right type of work? do you think business builders are better that clients? or better than prosumming IBO's? if you do, that may be one of your reasons for failing. And if your getting into debt because of this business, your doing it wrong!
my wife and i use to be 99 cent store shoppers. we made, and still make very little in our day time jobs. (my wife no longer works because of the mentorship and teaching though the WORLD WIDE GROUP, not quixtar) but we still afford the product, why can't you? or are you just complaining? the reason we can afford these products is because we no longer buy products from any place else(other than parishables) we no longer IMPULSE BUY. we just get what we need and thats that. if your clients are just as important to you, as you business buliders, thats when you become profitable, when you have a serveing mantality, not a selfish one.
another thing is, if you are building this business you have teriffic tax breaks/write offs. in our first year in this business we received a little over $1000 more in our tax return because of our business. in our second year we received just over $2,100. (so get a good tax guy who knows what they are doing)
if this is all we every accoplished in our business, an extra $250-$550/mo. plus at the end of the year recive $1000 or more in our tax retun because of this business. Is that worth it? a measly 1-2 night/ week effort, going to your local functions?
but what happenes when we keep on keeping on? Platinum? emerald? diamond? crown? is it worth the effort to find out? what else are you doing? mr & mrs couch patato.
who cares about spell check , i will waste no more time with this pitty this form
What makes me think that poor Danielbot is on a collision course to disaster? Was it is his blind ambition or his obvious lack of education, or both?
Daniel, I think you better get used to shopping in the clearance aisle of the 99cent store. After you get soaked for huge loss, you won't even able to swing full price there either!
Can someone verify that the average IBO is 23? If so, that really speaks to a "sucker is born every minute" theory.
At 23, most kids are greedy enough to go for the fast-buck (or Quick Star if you will) and naive enough to not do their research.
The IRS says:
No profit intent = no business. PERIOD.
That's a hobby, guys!
Check out some of the tax court findings regarding Amway distributorships - not even the really abusive old ones, like the distributor who wrote off his dog food because his dog was "protecting" his Amway inventory.
Dog food, for God's sake.
I'm talking about the more current ones, like the disallowed tape and travel expenses.
They're easy to find - give yourself an intellectual challenge and see if you can find 'em. Start with Google - try "Amway Quixtar tax court disallowed jail" just for fun.
If you care.
And no particular insult meant, Bluefox, but I'm not in business to build friendships, or community, or feelings of mutual good.
THAT'S WHAT HOBBIES (and 12 step programs) ARE FOR!
Hobby = not business, remember?
Bluefox, you have been a great absorber and spouter of the same old tired Ammababble we have been fighting here. I spouted it too, when I was a plugged in, fired up Ambot.
Whyn'cha try thinking for yourself now, Bluefox? It hurts at first, but you will find that it gets easier with practise. And do like J suggested and for gosh sakes either buy a spellchecker, or at least edit your comments before posting them. People take your point of view more seriously when it looks at least as though you tried to be thoughtful.
Daniel, I realize that you said you aren't going to read any further here, but for the benefit of others who may be reading, I'll mentions the following:
If you are getting tax refunds of an extra $1,000 and $2,100 based on this business, that's because you have a NET OPERATING LOSS. Which means that although you are receiving bonus checks, your costs of doing business far outweigh your earnings. In fact, even at the 15% tax bracket, in order to get back an 'extra $2100', as you claim, you had to have LOST $14,000 (15% of 14,000 = 2,100).
So are you saying you had a net operating loss of $14,000, and had sufficient income to be offset by this amount?
Either you are losing stunning quantities of money, or your numbers are off.
Also, you have one more year of my tax dollars subsidizing your hobby. Because, you see, a HOBBY is how the IRS defines your 'business' after it fails to show a profit for any three of the previous 5 years, including the year in question. You apparently have never had a profit, so unless you start making one, this is your last year to ride the gravy train.
After that, you need to claim your losses on a Sch A, as hobby incme, only to the extent of your earnings, and subject to the 2% floor.
I realize that this is probably NOT what your upline told you. Please do NOT hire a tax adviser based on your upline's advice.
My husband has been fed the same line about tax write-offs since the beginning. After three years of losses, I had to refuse to sign the return before he would even look at the IRC (Internal Revenue Code) for himself, and realize that he could no longer write off his losses, in spite of what his upline was spouting.
Daniel,
Since I left Quixtar I have devoted my idle time to educating myself about personal finance. I now spend money funding my 401(k), my Roth IRA, and my Employee Stock Purchase Plan account. So far, the return on that money has beat the pants off the return I got from my Quixtar business. Your Mileage May Vary.
Here ehre Waymee, now I do freelancing instead of quixtar. Beats the pants out of profit I made in Quixtar. Much easier and real income that benefits me big time.
Someone asked for verification about the average age, I'm not too sure it was actually measured, but I know the Winters team at least teaches this (It was on Danny Snipes tape on the 2001 or 2002 Go Diamond double tape). I made an interesting parallel to this today as I was reading Steven Hassan’s book “Combating Cult Mind Control� and there was a statement that cults tend to recruit younger people because they can work harder, sleep and eat less, and as someone already mentioned here, are more grasped by the lust of greed and less likely to do their homework.
I was in my last year of college when I saw Quixtar. I was attracted to the prospect of having all my debts paid off by the time I completed graduate school. Since I wanted to make it, I did EVERYTHING MY UPLINE SUGGESTED. Result: after showing many plans, having groups and clients in three different states, qualifying for leadership meetings, etc, etc, etc, I had a NET LOSS of over $11,000 from business expenses over 4 years. After leaving the business, I am in MUCH BETTER FINANCIAL SHAPE!
Daniel, Amway / Quixtar name, take my advise in this (or if not my advise, someone else offering the same), problems occur when we fail to learn from history. Quixtar is essentially the same thing as Amway (though there are a few differences). If you don’t know about Amway and you move on with Quixtar which is ‘the same’, we are BOUND TO THE SAME FATE! Perhaps you will have heard this one: If you keep doing what you are doing, you will continue to have what you always have had! The NAME is irrelevant, the concept is what matters. Quixtar and Amway are the same concept.
Further, Daniel, I am a Christian. As a Christian, I am to be a good steward of the resources God has given me. I, therefore, need to treat my life as though it is not mine. If I am given money (no matter the amount, be it $20 or $2,000,000) I need to choose the best way to use it. I go to the store to buy my perishables. I saw Aquafresh toothpaste on sale for 12 oz (2-6oz tubes) for $1.73. I could also choose to buy Glister for $4.10 (wholesale) for a 6.75 oz tube. I also do not need to worry about shipping if I buy from the store that I am currently at. What about impulse buying? As a steward of the money, I make few, if any, impulse buys. Those that I do are because I get something that I KNOW I will need and I got a better deal today as opposed to tomorrow. As such, there is nothing ignoble about purchasing items from the Dollar Stores. Please be sure that you have not been told that these products are ‘lower’ and for ‘broke losers’ so that you would be encouraged to buy the Quixtar brands.
While on the topic of money, here is a wonderful list that originated from my pastor:
Don’t let money: 1. Be the measure of the man; 2. Be your life’s pursuit; 3. Destroy your walk with God; 4. Hinder your fruitfulness; 5. Be a divider
Do use your money: 1. As a faithful servent; 2. With restraint; 3. According to a plan; 4. As a tool for helping others; 5. As a means to serve God.
Helping others is NOT to suggest people to buy a book to learn, it is to lend the book. Let them buy a few if it is a core book that really helps them. Otherwise, they read it one time (if that) and it gets placed on the shelf. Helping others is certainly not asking them to go into debt to buy a bunch of tapes with the same message on them. If the business is that profitable, why do all these tapes need to be bought in such a way?
As for anyone who thinks that this business is the means to help others, I have pictures of over 20 kids that I spend the day praying for (when I am not with them) and giving my LIFE to them whenever I can. I could not do that if I were running all over the country STPing. I gave up the STP for these children and I have NONE of those regrets your upline said you would if you quit as well.
To the gung-ho IBOs:
Do yourselves a big favor and try to push your kingpin uplines to produce a tape on proper grammar usage and spelling.
Itz tuff two folloe yur poestings when you tipe lyke this.
xanadustc,
I agree with you whole-heartedly. 'Couldn't have said it better, and I had to let you know that!
Here's some good advice:
Join the newest and fastest growth potential MLM. It is called MFM [see further below for the meaning].
For a limited time only - for the low, low, low price of only three easy $199.95 payments, I can show you all the secrets of the truly obscenely wealthy.
And if you really contact me - unlikely as it is if you read this entire post - I'll be glad to take your money and enroll you into this awesome program.
The program initials stand for 'Morons Fleecing Morons', hope you'll join in with the flock mentality.
On that ending note, this is your trustworthy shepherd, saying let's get the flock out of here!!
That's all for now. [tongue-firmly-planted-in-cheek]
:-)
Simple facts:
- If you sign a distributor agreement with Amway/Quixtar, you're an AmQuix distributor. Period. Whatever else you tell yourself about what you are doing, and how the rules apply to you, is pretty much irrelevant. Every day that you go out and promote "network building" you are in violation of that contract.
- AmQuix data indicates that approx. 1 out 14,000 "active" IBOs achieve "Diamond" status. Compare to SBA statistics that show an 85% + success rate for franchises. Precisely how non-"average" does one have to be to achieve "Diamond" status?
The data is obvious, as are the results. People building a self consumption-based "netwrorking" business are, in the clear light of objectivity, promoting an enterprise built on (at a minuimum) breaking a contractual covenant to achieve something of questionalble long-term benefit, the odds of which actually occuring comparable to casino gambling and horse track betting.
The vast majority of you promoting this fraud are losing money. Whatever reason that you do this for, it isn't actually for business reasons - it can't possibly be.
I believe that 1 in 8 people are millionaires in the US. I think that was in Businessweek or US News -- I can't remember where I read that.
And 1 in 14,000 are becoming millionaires (i.e. Diamonds) thu AmQuix.
So, only a microscopic subset of American millionaires come from the AmQuix business model.
That J-O-B isn't stinking so much after all...
...in fact, that smell of honest, hard-earned revenue is pretty refreshing!
What does stink is the Google-bombing, the alienation of friends and family and the seemingly cult-like atmosphere.
Now, I have even heard rumors that the TEAM is out to run an academy for home schooled kids.
This "business" is trying to corrupt the US
education system. Talk about brainwashing!
df, are you serious?? 1 in 8 people are millionaires? That's like 15%! If you make $250,000 or more you're in the wealthiest 1% that Al Gore was so hung up on. Your #'s are so far off its not even funny!! You just lost ALL creditability!! This is why I don't listen to negative morons like you.
This business has created more millionaires than Any other business besides Microsoft, and they did it with publicly traded stock.
All it takes is 1 person to prove that something can be done. And there are currently over a thousand Diamonds! not to mention the Emeralds, Saphires, Rubies, Q-12's, Platinum, etc. Rubies make about $5k a month. I think most would be OK with that! Not to mention the $10K Q12 bonus and free trip every year.
Just because YOU didn't do it, doesn't mean it doesn't work. Just because someone doesn't go Diamond doesn't mean it didn't work. A lifetime at Emerald is better than a lifetime at some JOB!
Tony:
Before you continue with your derisive tirade of that 15% statistic, you should know that Bank of America said in 2000 that there were approximately 11,000,000 millionares in the US.
Divide that by 150 million poeple, and you get 4.4%.
BUT the average US household consists of 3.4 poeple (if I recall correctly), so that means that approximately 37 million Americans live in a 'millionare household'.
37 million divided by 250 million equals 14.8%. How about that.
So, we have re-established quite firmly the credibility of the original poster, at least with regard to that statisitic. Which leads us to call into question your own veracity, or at least your either inability or unwillingness to perform your own 'due diligence' if the facts don't line up with your dream.
But even if we go back to the simple 4.4% statistic, that's still 1 out of 25. Now, I could be wrong I suppose, but isn't 1 out of 25 much better than 1 out of 14,000?
Thanks CK, I appreciate the backup.
I was going to use the BoA stat, but I was still looking for the original argument.
I should have stated that 1 in 8
HOUSEHOLDS are over $1mm/year.
With that out of the way, TONYBOT -- how about speaking on your company's latest actions in Google bombing, homeschooling as a means of brainwashing and the loss of relations with friends and family???
Where do you value that in your life???
CK, your stupidity is astounding. Where did you get your # of 150 million people in the US, that later in your post became 250 million?? Let's try 280 million people in the US.
df, you said 1 in 8 people are millionaires plain and simple. Don't try to go back and say you meant something else. You said 1 in 8 and then used That as a basis to play down Quixtar #'s. Your tactic was shady & so far from the truth its not funny, sit down and shut up for being stupid.
ck, then you try to defend him with using isane logic that if you divide 11M millionaires by 150M people that gives you 4.4%. Well hell let's just divide it by 11,000,000 and make it 100%. I mean you can just pick Any # right? Isn't that what you did. I mean 150 million people, that sounds good doesn't it? But then suddenly we're at 250 million people?? Try doing your funny math with the # 280 million if we're talking about people in the US. Or just keep telling outright lies to make Quixtar look bad.
Oh, I guess more than 1 in 14,000 are Diamonds, when you count wifes too. So should that number be 1 in 7,000 now? What about kids? Most Diamonds I know have 3-4 kids. Now it's 1 in 2000!! Heck with this logic 1 in 14 are Platinum, and EVERYONE graduates college!!
>This business has created more >millionaires than Any other business >besides Microsoft, and they did it with >publicly traded stock.
That is absurd. Just because you heard it on a tape doesn't make it so. Please do a little rudimentary research before posting this kind gratuitous nonsense.
By the way: most "Diamonds" are not "millionares", in that they do not generate one million or more in net operating profit.
Tony, I make more than your Emerald and I work fewer hours. I am willing to back that up through a third party if you have the guts to face that your perspective on this may not be totally objective.
>All it takes is 1 person to prove that >something can be done. And there are >currently over a thousand Diamonds! not >to mention the Emeralds, Saphires, >Rubies, Q-12's, Platinum, etc. Rubies >make about $5k a month. I think most >would be OK with that! Not to mention the >$10K Q12 bonus and free trip every year.
What seems to "take" is about 3-5 million people (in North America) to have passed through AmQuix over the years for to create those "Diamonds". Doesn't that tell you anything? Do you really think that every person that didn't reach "Diamond" was a mouth-breathing lazy slob?
Come know - I have personally met dozens of people with charisma and drive not even make "Direct" in "netorking", mainly because they weren't willing to engage in the morally and ethically reprehensible pratices promoted be your beloved "Diamonds".
"I should have stated that 1 in 8
HOUSEHOLDS are over $1mm/year."
I appreciate what you are trying to say, CK and df, and you know that I am firmly on your side regarding Am/Quix - but I think that it is important to note that the concept of "millionaire" is based on net worth, not annual income.
Unfortunately, Tonybot is correct - $250K/ year income puts a person solidly in the top 1% of income earners.
I have also seen, and have no reason to dispute, that based on assets, approximately 1 in 8 persons in the US have a net (paper) worth of over 1 million dollars.
The almost obscene appreciation of real estate in the US in general, based on an incredibly low interest rate, speculative buying driving demand for property, and lax lending policies driven by the government through Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac makes this possible.
My biggest fear is that as a country, if this bubble of "wealth" bursts, people will be desperate enough to go into abusive MLM's like this one, looking for solutions, and finding only problems.
Every time you see the US go through an economic hard time, you see the recruiting numbers go up in Am/Quix.
Ask anyone who has lived or spent any amount of time in Japan recently - unemployment is high, cost of living is astronomical, and MLM's in general, including Amway, are rampant.
We saw it here in the early 80's, again in the early 90's.
I don't know about 2001-2002, I was out of Amway by then.
Comments?
oh, I almost forgot - I could give a rats ass about google bombing. These sites are BS anyway, all Quixtar tried to do was beat you guys at your own game. Why can't we put up blogs too?
Home schooling? You'll have to clarify, not sure what this new scandalis about. Are you saying home schooling is bad, cause I know a lot of people who were or are home schooled and they turned out quite fine, both in and out of the business.
And finally, stop presuming to know my life!! You people are F'ing pathetic! I still have ALL my friends from before the business. No one has cut me off, and I haven't cut them off. Just because YOU knew a guy who knew a guy that had a friend that stopped hanging out with him doesn't mean that ALL IBO's stop having the same friends! who are you to imply I don't value my friends & family!
Don't hold it against me that I have the guts to step out and do something different to improve the life of me and my family.
If all you want is a job for the next 40 years of your life, fine! If you want to retire and then have to struggle to get by, or worse go back to work, which I'm watchin my own family do, then thats YOUR decision, and you're entitled to it. But stop hating on people who want more and have the guts to do it!
Some will fail. LIFE IS A RISK!! Others will make it! As many already have! Do something with your life other than making assumptions and tearing down good people because of Your misconceptions or the actions of few bad people. You'll find bad apples Everywhere, in every group, every company!! That's a fact of life. Deal with it. If this isn't for you, I understand, but I have not pity for ignorant fools who lie and bash for the sake of bashing!
Do you have a source for your millionaire tapespeak line, Tony? Bet you got it from a tape or your upline and their source was a tape, and nobody has any hard data supporting the claim. Remember, you made the claim that Amway/Quixtar has made more millionaires then anyone except MicroSoft, it is now up to you to prove it.
I can give you a good analysis that questions the claim. http://www.amquix.info/Amway_rebuttal.html#millionaires besides the BofA numbers from CK. Even if there are 4 people in every AmQuix family, the amount of people living in millionaire AmQuix households doesn't come close to that of the general public.
Also, remember, MicroSoft is a relatively young company. Who made millionaires before MicroSoft? I bet companies like IBM, American Express and a large list of other Fortune 500 companies have made more millionaires then AmQuix. And lets not forget Wal-Mart, which is as old as AmQuix. Bet besides the Walton family, a lot of high executives as well as stock holders have become Wally-World millionaires.
I'd also be careful about your income claims, Tony. $5k/month is average emerald income. http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_income.html In 2003, the average emerald income, including bonuses, was $67,420, which would translate to about $5,600/month.
Remember, Tony, trust but validate. You seem to have the trust down part, but you never seem to validate what your upline tells you. It's a dangerous thing to trust without validation. I know you have confidence in your upline, but remember the "con" in con-man comes from the word CONfidence. Con-men gain your confidence and then take you for a ride. And it starts when you trust without validation!
Last, Daniel, listen to the tax advice CK is giving. People who get large tax refunds either have a large number of dependents, are very low income, or run a money losing business. Now I have no idea how many children you have, Daniel, but a good business owner usually complains about his tax burden because he's made so much money he owes a large chunk. He never smiles when he talks about his tax refund, because that means his business isn't making money.
Well there are 4 % House holds in US that are millionaires (according to what I found)
http://www.coeinc.org/financialstatistics.htm
Most Americans (70%) earn less than $50,000 per year. However, taking into consideration dual income families, the average household income is much higher than $50,000. The $50,000 to $100,000 income range consist of 25% of American households while 5% earn more than $100,000 per year. Of the 105 million households in America, only 4 million households (approx. 4%) have accumulated a net worth of $1 million or more even though 30% of all Americans earn more than $50,000 per year.
What is the makeup of the 4 million households that call themselves "millionaires". The average taxable income is $131,000. Of course, income is only taxed when it is realized. Tax deferred investments are a high priority for those who desire to increase their wealth. Surprisingly, 80% of those in the millionaire status are first generation and in 70% of the households, the male contributes 80% of the income. Almost all millionaires are married (95%) and 1/2 of the wives do not work outside of the home. The number one job of wives in millionaire households is a teacher. Half of all millionaires (50%) have lived in the same home for more than 20 years. Less than 25% drive current year model cars and only a small minority ever lease autos.
According to the CIA, there are approximately 300 million in population:
295,734,134 (July 2005 est.)
And according to Census Department numbers, about 120M housing units.
For what it's worth.
(my apologies for the harsh language, I apprecaite the logical disputes people have, but my tolerance is wearing thin of the people falsifying #'s, prices, stats, etc. for the simple purpose of making Quixtar look bad.)
I've NEVER said that people who don't make it are lazy slackers. Some probably were. But just because someone doesn't become a doctor doesn't mean he was stupid. not everything can be for everyone. so maybe you tried it and it didn't work. Maybe eveyone you showed it to got on here and read some rant about it being a scam and never even called you back, maybe THAT's why it didn't work for you. And the cycle just keeps going. well I'm here to break it!
Thanks for the numbers, Imran.
See, Tony - trust, but verify. My mantra.
It didn't work for these folks 'cause it doesn't work for the majority of folks. Bottom line.
Tony,
How long ago have you signed your 'declaration of independence?' (i.e., your Quixtar application). If you started your business after they no longer used the paper application, how long has it been since you started? I mean when you got your IBO number, not when you got serious about your business.
Thanks,
xanadustc
Thats cool Keith, just be consistent and tell your 12 yr old that he'll never be a Major League Baseball player. Or heck, that he'll probably never even start on varsity in highschool. That he probably won't get his Eagle Scout, or blackbelt, cause the overwhelming majority don't!
I understand your issues Keith, but we don't promise anyone anything. EVERY Open Meeting I hear the speaker say, "is that guaranteed? No." or "I can't promise you anything". Its not a scam, plain and simple. People do make money at this. Some make LOTS of it. Others make an extra $500 a month, cause thats what they set out to do.
X, I got in at the very end of 2003. Been in about a year and a half. Still am not doing everything I could be, nowhere near it. Still have #'s on my B-list to call. Had 2 friends get in on someone else's team, cause I never got around to making the phone calls, or bringing it up. A mistake I can share with guys on my team. I'm taking it more serious everyday.
No-one has to falsify anything about AmQuix to make it "look bad". The numbers speak for themselves, at least the numbers that they publish.
There is are no statistics published by AmQuix that suggests that the business "opportunity" is any better than buying a lottery ticket.
Have evidence to the contrary? By all means post it. No-one else has to-date, including the Company and the "Diamonds".
Go get your Emerald, Tony. Tell him there is a loud-mouth on an Internet blog that wants to do a one-to-one comparison on income and lifestyle.
Go ahead. I'm dying to speak to him/her/it.
Mike,
I tried that approach long ago for verifiable facts. I even put my money on the line asking them to prove their claims. As usual Ambots divert the topic. Instead of fixing the Motivational cults, they send trolls like Tony onto these boards. And I have to say it is very entertanining to read this idiot's moronic rant. Sit back, relax and watch this guy self-destruct. This tony imbecile will lose a lot of money in $118/month GROSS income business.
For his sake, I hope he realizes this is a bad association before it is too late.
I'll take the Emerald challenge too!
I'll be back with my sources on my claim. I am not backing down. I did mis-state person / household metric and I came clean with it - BY MYSELF.
I hold myself accountable in everyway Tony; so don't try to make that into something that it wasn't.
Tony:
Wow. Such vitriole. Sorry - I misTYPED. Do you own a calculator? Use it. The number is 11,000,000 divided by 250,000,000 = 4.4%. Did you evev bother doing the math before you responded? See, the math is correct, but I mistyped the numbers. See how that works? Do you check ANYTHING before you respond?
I'd be more careful calling people stupid if I were you.
I realize that you are involved in some heated conversations where name-calling has become the norm (and I am not pinning the blame for this solely on your shoulders, by the way), but if you look, you will see that I am not one of the combatants in this ridiculous verbal assault game.
There's a big difference between cynicism and a skeptical tone, to which I readily confess, and calling people stupid. Among these differences is that it takes considerably more intelligence to argue the merits of one's case than it does to resort to character assasination or name-calling. You may decide for yourself where that leaves you (and so can anybody else, lest Tony think I am 'picking on him' because I disagree vehemently with his 'points').
Your argument that I should not have included households is silly, because I did NOT compare non-Amway millionare households to Amway diamonds. It's two separate points, which you apparently failed to differentiate, so I will do it here for you:
Point ONE: df was not as far off base as you alleged in his stating that 1 out of 8 Americans is a millionare. I reached that conclusion by multiplying the number of people in each household by the number of millionares in the country. The net worth of a millionare's child is certainly subject to debate, but the reality is that many of these millionares are probably multi-millionares, so as an AVERAGE, df's assertion was pretty close.
Point TWO: I went back to that flat 4.4% figure in comparing Amway and non-Amway INDIVIDUAL millionares, and the numbers are the same as I already stated: 1 in 25 nonAmway millionares, 1 in 14,000 Amway millionares.
OK, the 2000 US census shows 281,000 people in the US. Divide that by the 11,000,000 millionares in 2000, and you get 3.9 percent. Still just about one out of 25, AS I STATED.
Amway wives and kids and nonAmway wives and kids have nothing to do with the statistical comparison I was making, which is that approximately one out of every 25 Americans is a millionare, and approximately one out of every 14,000 Am/quiz IBO's is a millionare.
Compare apples to apples.
ATTENTION: I am restating my claim.
It is 8% of US households are over $1mm in net worth. I knew there was an 8 in there somewhere... :)
Bottom line -- 8% over 1mm is far greater than the 1 in 14,000 'success rate' in AmQuix.
Here is the link, so you can see for yourself.
http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/16/pf/millionaire_households/
Also, in the article, they make an important note about these millionaires:
The reason for the record growth in millionaires next door? A steady hand in investing throughout the bear market.
"They were still investing in the market. They weren't running," said Jeanette Luhr, manager of the Affluent Market Research Program for TNS who compared this year's data with data as far back as 2000, when the stock market began its precipitous fall.
What's more, Luhr noted, while she saw some increase in bond holdings and a decline in the value of wealthier households' investments during the bear market, there were no wild shifts or swings.
When asked, 48 percent of those surveyed reported little change in their investing approach since the market's collapse, while 46 percent took a "wait-and-see" approach, making few changes to their holdings.
So, it looks like these folks aren't claiming soap, vitamins or energy drink (or TOOLS) for their success. Not a lot of AmQuix activity in that 8%.....
I am still up for the Emerald challenge, the Pepsi challenge and any other kind of challenge!
Yes, Keith, I understand that we are talking about millionares in terms of net assets.
In fact, I believe I am being somewhat generous in assuming that all Amway diamonds are millionares based on this definition, after reading the repeated stories of the necessity of 'looking the part'.
We know that most US millionares got there simply by spending less than they earn and investing the rest. I see an awful lot of spending going on to keep the downline dream alive, and the several divorce cases that have made their way to the public domain (Stricler and Kosage spring to mind) reveal very LITTLE net worth as it compares ot income for these 'upper level' IBOs.
Tony,
I figured you had not been an IBO for very long. I am surprised you are actually on this site. My upline always told me to stay away from any site talking about Quixtar or Amway that was not given to me from them. This, in cult theory, is called Information Control (take a look at http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm) for a good detail of cult theory. The author here is not against MLM’s or motivational organizations associated with them. A cult is not necessarily (though it can be) intentional, it is defined by the characteristics that make it up.
You are very young in the business and probably have not seen much or heard much. I don’t speak from the perspective of a negative person who didn’t make it; I speak from a person who saw what the system was doing. You can not logically justify spending money you do not have to purchase SOT. There are only about 4-8 tapes that you need to teach you the WHOLE BUSINESS! They say that this is such an easy business; if that is the case, why are there so many tapes? The other type of tape is the stories. These, however, do not make up much of SOT. I have a box of tapes that would make you jealous as an IBO. I used to listen to 6-8 tapes PER DAY! I know this business inside and out. I read over 300 books in my days in the business. There is some value with these, I do not deny that; however, buying all the books is NOT justified. I have about 5-10 books that I read enough to have a copy of, this is about $120 worth at best. The other books, I could have borrowed from the library. The reason they have a SOT and a BOM is to KEEP YOU PLUGGED IN so that YOU DON’T ESCAPE! Meanwhile, you pay the money that they highly suggest you pay. You talk to your upline about how your business is not growing and they tell you that ‘of course, you are not plugged into the system that much’. If you are truly plugged in (This is BWW), you will have a One Domain Site ($35/month); be on SOT ($8.25 / week); BOM ($5-$15/month); attend Open meetings ($6-$12 / month SINGLE IBO); attend the Rally/Seminar ($10 / quarter SINGLE IBO), attend the Weekend conferences ($150 / quarter SINGLE IBO); be on Communikate ($22/month light or $35 / Month Unlimited). I may be forgetting something, but I don’t think I am. That all boils down to $101 / month for the LIGHT END (single tapes, not doubles, a cheap BOM, Kate light, and only 2 opens. For the seminars and conferences, adjust accordingly. Are you doing the minimums or more? For every bit more, that costs more. Are your bonus checks large enough to cover it all? If they are, congratulations, you are in a minority. If they are not, you are losing money.
As for the products, they are more expensive to pay all the levels in between. Some products are a little cheaper, most are not. Factor in shipping costs. I paid on average, $250 per month on shipping, I have ALL THE PAPERWORK TO PROOVE IT. Prior to your being in the business, we had what was called a ‘consolidated report’ which DETAILED ALL COSTS INCLUDING SHIPPING!! I have all of these for the duration I was in the business (except when they quit sending them.). If you would like a copy, I can get them to you. My email address is xanadustc@hotmail.com. I have tons more to say, that should do it for now. I pray for you because I have seen things that you don’t yet know. I also know that many other people here are speaking of the same experiences. I spent $11,000 on the tool system. The PSD and up all make money on all that.
I must also say that I am sorry that some people are passing insults on you. I was exactly like you are now. I can honestly say that you sound like a BWW tape. This is an aspect of mind control. Proceed with caution.
Xanadustc
Typo:
"I paid on average, $250 per month on shipping"
That should say:
"I paid on average, $250 per year on shipping"
Tony,
I think I’ll just chime in with my 2 cents as well. I hope that you understand that many of us here are not speaking as “negative� people who were never in “the business� and just have second hand knowledge of it. Most of us were in for a number of years, like xanadustc, in many different AMO organizations. I was in for 11 years, with reputable people, personally plugged in to a large Emerald in WWDB. The experiences that we share here are the same, essentially. I have seen so many testimonies that I could have written personally. I made a comment a while back about how our Emerald cut us off his Kate distribution when we decided we couldn’t afford standing order for a while. We never told him we quit, but his actions showed us he didn’t care about us, only our (albeit meager) tool money. He sent no message to us with any questions. We nearly went bankrupt because we believed what they told us and we kept spending money on the system while working as hard as we could to build it. We trusted them to help us, because they said they wanted to. Now we know they only wanted what we could give them, money. When we were no longer useful, we were “flushed�, without so much as a “good-bye�. There’s much more to our story, but this is the “Cliff Notes� version.
I know exactly where you are coming from, Tony, I really do. I’ve said everything you’re saying, felt the way that you feel, just as passionately as you. I felt this way for 11 years. But now that I’ve seen the truth, I’m now passionate about helping others avoid the pain (financially and emotionally) that we’re still struggling to recover from.
TD
Ck, I never called you stupid, correct me if I'm wrong. DF was just plain stupid to say 1 in 8 people are millionaires. I can't apologize for that. Maybe if he had just said it and made a mistake, but he said it to then put quixtar in a negative light. And yes I may have got a little heated, especially at the p'sad's of the world, but i apologized for any harsh language.
Let's not forget that part of that 8% millionare households is Including people in Quixtar!! I love how people manipulate numbers to make there argument.
Like the article df posted about stock investing where it said "When asked, 48 percent of those surveyed reported little change in their investing approach since the market's collapse..." that means 52% did!
My upline Emerald makes $180,000 a year, and Mike Waechter made $300,000 as an Emerald, as did Steve Fratarcangeli. Matt Grotewald made $350,000 as an Emerald last year. I'll ask any of them for their financial statements when you show me the statements of the person sitting in the cube next to you! Get my point?
This business teaches you to live Below your means, even at Emerald sometimes, but then once your a solid Emerald or Diamond enjoy the fruits of your labor. There's no "looking the part".
I just don't understand the anamosity. It didn't work for you , or you just chose this wasn't for you, that's cool, move on.
It's working for a ton of people at my Open.
Odds are odds, Tony, and you are correct, just because the odds are against you, doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't go for it. Still, when the odds are stacked very high against you, I would offer a bit of advice. First, don't put all your eggs in one basket, and two, weigh the risks/rewards against the odds.
For example, if I knew someone with the dream to play Major League Baseball, I wouldn't tell them not to try, but to hedge their bets a bit by also focussing on education. Professional atheltic careers can be very short, but education lasts a lifetime. That's not to say someone drafted in the first round out of high school shouldn't take the money and go back to school, just before you get drafted, keep the options open by being a good enough student to get into college if you are drafted in the 49th round instead. To put it another way, have a plan B.
Also, one must weigh the risks/rewards. What are the risks of striving to play in the major leagues? Not that many, unless of course, the player doesn't have a plan B and things don't work out right. But if the player is a good student, college is always an option, and the player could potentially continue to play, and might even get a scholarship. And if he isn't drafted out of college (usually after their junior year due to MLB draft rules), then at least he should have his education to fall back on. The player also gets the benefits of playing team sports, hopefully keeping him out of trouble, etc.
With AmQuix, what's your plan B, Tony? If Quixtar doesn't work for you, what are you going to do? I know my JOB isn't secure, but that's why I have money saved away in a diversified portfolio for a rainy day. I also trust my ability to get another job, even if it is part time at a retail store to make ends meet. I don't plan on using my plan B, but it's there if I ever need it.
Now, what are the risks/benefits of AmQuix? The benefits are working with a team with a common goal and some potentially good motivation. People may personally grow from AmQuix too, but others shun their friends and end up ruining their family. Depends on the situation. The big risk, of course, is losing thousands of dollars chasing a near impossible dream, while never having a plan B. People have gone thousands in debt, lost houses and filed for bankruptcy because of AmQuix, for the 1 in 14,000 chance of making it diamond. Is the risk/benefit worth it? Your answer may still be yes, Tony, but when you look at all the facts, figures and odds, in my opinion, AmQuix is not only a very bad opportunity, it's a scam.
What year was this?
Steve Fratarcangeli made Emerald in 2002, I think it was May. I was at the first Seminar where he was first recognized. His check in November 2002 (when the bonuses come in) was $35,000 dollars. That included many one time bonuses and special qualifier bonuses including (but not limited to) the annual growth bonus (which I think only 10 people a year get), a product selling bonus, and the Emrald bonus, which the amount escapes me at the moment. Yes, the Frat man (as Paul Miller calls him) is a glowing example of success. How many people, however, are feeding his income with the system? Statically, over 3/4 of his income comes from the TAPES THAT YOU ARE BUYING!! Also, I know a little about this team: Their business ethics are amoral, I will not give examples here, but they are in direct violation of several codes in the Quixtar code of conduct. I stand by my post from last week: You CAN make money at this thing, but first, it is very rare, and second, you must rob several people blind to do it.
As for 'the business teaches to live below your means', I am sorry to report that in my experience, it does not. I was talking to my upline Platinum about not being able to afford something. He told me that I should go ahead and use my credit card because the Platinum bonus is $5000 and that I can pay off the card then. Is that living below your means? I'm sorry, but the business may say that on one hand, but it does not teach that as a rule. We were always taught to buy things at the end of the month to qualify if we were close because the prestige that comes with the pin is more important than the money.
TD and X, your posts were not there when i typed my last messae, only saw them when I went to look at mine.
I appreciate your guys concern I really do. And I am sorry to here about how some on the business treated you. Being cut off Kate from your Emerald is unacceptable. But not sure how that happened. My emerald sends down Kate's to his frontline, they go to my Sapphire, then my Platinum, then to my sponsor (Silver) then to me. My Emerald can't cut my off Kate, only my personal sponsor could choose not to send any messages down, which mine never has.
I wasn't on SOT for the first 7 months, I still got Kate's, he still sat down and game planned with me. You cannot say that all upline are greedy and after money, you have to be intelligent enough to admit that there ARE good people looking to help others in theis business Despite the fact someone in Your team was unethical.
Also my IBO site is $14.95/month and Kate is only $31, not a big deal just wanted to give you the facts.
Yes, you may have been able to take out some of those books in the library, but then could you pass them around your team? You mentioned spending $11,000 on the education system, well what about college? What about That education system? Say whatever you want about tapespeak its true guys, what did you spend on college?? But wasn't it worth investing in yourself. I dropped $39,000 in college tuition alone not counting grants, books, etc. College today can easily cost you $100,000! Yet people complain about a $6 book or tape. I had to keep buying books in college, quarter after quarter, year after year, more and more books! That now I'm stuck with!
You admit these books are valueble/helpful, that now i can give to downline or even friends/family.
I do not deceide people, I still pass on Kate messages to downline who aren't on SOT or evening coming to weekly meetings. I still talk with friends who never got in, or got in and then quit.
Any group with 300,000 - 1M people involved is gonna have unethical people. I can't help it that someone in your upline was shady. I have NEVER seen it in mine, or even crossline. Thats the truth.
"Let's not forget that part of that 8% millionare households is Including people in Quixtar!! I love how people manipulate numbers to make there argument."
Where is the manipulation??? I never said anything to the contrary....
I am sayinging that only a small portion of(you said a thousand) millionaires comes from the AmQuix business model.
If so many other people are being successful doing it another way, why not examine those other ways?
Maybe something that won't compromise your financial security or moral integrity?
Look, you have seen the stories of what can happen to you. If you choose to ignore these facts, that is up to you.
Just don't say you weren't warned!
"Thats cool Keith, just be consistent and tell your 12 yr old that he'll never be a Major League Baseball player. Or heck, that he'll probably never even start on varsity in highschool. That he probably won't get his Eagle Scout, or blackbelt, cause the overwhelming majority don't!"
That's B.S., Tony. Here's what I wouldn't tell my kids:
Don't join Quixtar. There are lots of better ways to invest your time and money to make more money.
Like going to school, getting an education, and working your way up in my company so that you can take it over some day.
Tony, goal achievement IS possible. I believe that everything good is possible in God's world, if you put time, effort, and energy into it.
I just think that the goal should be worthwhile, helps people, and is wothy of God's praise.
I, personally (and remember, this is MY opinion), do not believe in the Am/Quix goal.
No Tony, I will NEVER tell my children that their worthwhile goals are unachievable.
That's just stupid, Tony, as well as being a very poor logical argument.
I expect better from you.
Tony> Yes, you may have been able to take out some of those books in the library, but then could you pass them around your team?
Imran> Not easily, yes. But they can, and should go to library too.
Tony> You mentioned spending $11,000 on the education system, well what about college? What about That education system?
Imran> College education pays many times over Tony, in your life time.
http://tinyurl.com/cbcto
Do you work? Would you have gotten this job without education?
X, my upline has never told me to buy more to hit a higher level to get prestige. They've told us the opposite. Not to rack up credit card debt just to do points. I don't know what to tell you except you had a sh!tty upline. True the Platinum bonus is $5k, and the yearly platinum bonus (Q12) is $10,000. But I wouldn't get in the hole with major CC debt, but you might compare that to "it's ok to take $50,000 in students loans for the next 4/5 years cause when you graduate you might make that your first or second year."
And whats my plan B? - well I guess my job? I haven't quit that to build this. I haven't risked to much to do this really. I haven't lost any friends. Heck, I've Gained friends from the business! Some of my old friends are in the business. Whats you plan B, your job? your 401K? The stock market? You're braver than i am. I've been layed off once, and I'm under 30. I payed $40k for college and i'm not even in my field of study. I make over 50K since your all so curious on income. and I don't live in Cali so I can get by on that (live in the midwest- my $139,000 house is nice enough prasad) sorry inside joke.
2004 was the year that "Frat boy" made $300,000. Why do you ask? That growth bonus that was 35,000 in 2002 was $100,000 in 2004. I'd like to know what the Fratarcangeli team is dong immoral, besides of course making money selling knowledge like your evil college does.
Sorry your experiences were different than mine, & sorry gotta go...
Actually, Tony, your exact words were "CK, your stupidity is astounding" (you asked me to correct you if you were wrong).
However, I understand that there was a heated exchange taking place. And for ALL who are reading this, even if the other guy DOES call you stupid, a moron, and ambot, a critbot, whatever, responding in kind certainly does not elevate your own argument. ;)
Yes, the number of millionares in the US does include AmQuix millionares. But even if we're very generous and guess that there are 200 (or even 2000!) of them, that still means that the overwhelming majority of millionares in the US got that way without AmQuix. Even if the number were 2000, that's 2000 out of 11,000,000, or roughly .018% - one out of every 5,500.
It doesn't alter the fact that you're more likely to become a millionare without AmQuix than with it.
Also, I find the income claims of your upline suspect, to say the least. The numbers certainly are not in line with Amway's own published data, or with that of BWW.
Also, perhaps you have not heard 'fake it til you make it' yet, but DH is in BWW, and has been repeating this for a very long time. The idea is that you must look successful (even if you aren't) in order to convince others to get in. After all, why would someone else believe in your fantastic income-opportunity of a lifetime if you wear clothes form Goodwill and drive a Yugo?
Well, the dude has been warned. Tony may or may not heed the advice, but if he isn't breaking 50k by age 30, then I suspect the boy isn't too bright.
One more clarification to you, Tony, in response to your comment about being sorry it didn't work for me...
I am not, nor have I ever been, an Amway distributor or a Quixtar IBO.
Sadly, DH has been heavily involved for years, running us to financial ruin and nearly destroying our family. Some of my own family and friends don't want us around anymore after listening to him deride education and work while trying to interest them in the 'opportunity'. (After several years, the IBO seems unable to talk about anything but 'the business'. Since you're not allowed to watch TV or read the newspaper, pretty soon you can't discuss politics, current events, or even the latest movie. IBOs do not make good party guests except at IBO functions.)
I was an IBO for 9 years. We were Gold Directs with 240 people in our group running 50 S/O per week. We took a break do to some family issues we were working out. We decided that would be the best course of action for us.
Later finding out that our loving/supporting up line started spreading all these nasty rumors about us in an attempt to gain control of our group.
We were expecting them to act in some questionable ways but never expected that they would sink that low.
Now our group won't return any of our calls or respond to any of our emails.
9 years of my life is what I put into this so called business. We weren't Amway/Quixtar groupies. We worked this thing. Sweat, blood and tears would be an understatement to describe what we gave this business.
I have grown closer to my wife, developed new friends, got rid of truck load of stress and have discovered an additional $1600/mth in our budget that was going into the system and products.
It's funny, I got into Amway/Quixtar to try and find myself a future. I had to Amway/Quixtar to realize that I already had one.
After experiencing everything that we did; if thing doesn't spell cult, I don't know what does.
If someone contacts you about making additional run. I little advice from someone that has been there done that "RUN"
df> Well, the dude has been warned. Tony may or may not heed the advice, but if he isn't breaking 50k by age 30, then I suspect the boy isn't too bright.
Imran> :) Have you served in army by chance, sir?
I'm under 30, and I have been breaking 50K since I was 22. I got laid off for 3 months and was suckered into Quixtar.
Imran>
df> Well, the dude has been warned. Tony may or may not heed the advice, but if he isn't breaking 50k by age 30, then I suspect the boy isn't too bright.
Imran> :) Have you served in army by chance, sir?
No, why do you ask? I've been doing it for most of my 20s too -- except my money is American, not that funny Canadian stuff!
“Also my IBO site is $14.95/month� – Yes, I stand corrected, this is the correct cost of One Domain. (I must have confused something in my head). The annual cost for the domain name is somewhere like $30 I think (please correct me, I forget what it is)
As for your tape costs (I remember my upline emerald in a team training talk about ‘dirt-mart bleeding people to death with inexpensive products’), you are being bled to death: My college was a finite time, 4 years in fact. I paid $35,000 for tuition which set me up for a graduate degree. Do you want to guess what is the baseline pay for a doctorate in the molecular sciences is? It is far more in one year than $35,000. Now on to the tapes and books: yes, I paid $60-$80 for some of my college books (which I still have and refer to). I only had about 4 courses per semester, about 8 courses per year: Let us assume that the average book costs $80 (which this is high for an average because of your classes that do not have a book or the one that studies the current $15 best seller). At 8 books for 4 years times $80, you have $2560 for books (I came NO WHERE CLOSE TO THAT NUMBER, but we will run with it. Now, let us look at your SOT: $8.25 (this is what I paid) times 72 weeks in a year for 4 years: $1716 and your books (assuming an $8 average which is a low average): $384. Add those together: $2100. Alas, just under the same amount (remember, though, I gave you the benefit of the doubt with a lower cost than the average for your materials and the upper of my average for mine.) I did not factor in your ‘no big deal’ expenses of $14.95 / month ($179.40/yr) website and $32 / month Kate ($384/yr). If I do, (four year numbers now) Tapes: $1716; Books: $384; Website: $717.60; and Kate: $1536 adds to a 4 year total of $4353.60. (This, BTW, is what Kanti Gala refers to as ‘minimum wage’ in the business. I bought a lot of extra tapes and books. Do you see how I spent $11,000 in this business without ever noticing it?) What were you saying about my college books again? I did not include all your meetings and your travel expenses. You see, it is much easier to justify a series of small spending than a few large ones even if those large ones come to a less cost overall.
“You admit these books are valueble/helpful, that now i can give to downline or even friends/family.� – You don’t need to be part of the business to buy these books, every one that is worth it’s weight in paper is available at the local bookstore.
“Any group with 300,000 - 1M people involved is gonna have unethical people. I can't help it that someone in your upline was shady. I have NEVER seen it in mine, or even crossline. Thats the truth.� – you can verify unequivocally that no one in your upline has any shady qualities? Not even us Am/Quix veterans could do that until we washed their messages out of our heads.
Tony said: "I appreciate your guys concern I really do. And I am sorry to here about how some on the business treated you. Being cut off Kate from your Emerald is unacceptable. But not sure how that happened. My emerald sends down Kate's to his frontline, they go to my Sapphire, then my Platinum, then to my sponsor (Silver) then to me. My Emerald can't cut my off Kate, only my personal sponsor could choose not to send any messages down, which mine never has."
My Emerald WAS my personal sponsor.
Tony said: "I wasn't on SOT for the first 7 months, I still got Kate's, he still sat down and game planned with me. You cannot say that all upline are greedy and after money, you have to be intelligent enough to admit that there ARE good people looking to help others in theis business Despite the fact someone in Your team was unethical."
Was part of the game plan to get you onto SOT? Was this something that was recommended by your upline? I'm sure that it was, as this is what we were taught. Get them on the SOT, ASAP. We were in WWDB, but much of our teaching comes straight from BWW.
Tony said: "Yes, you may have been able to take out some of those books in the library, but then could you pass them around your team? You mentioned spending $11,000 on the education system, well what about college? What about That education system? Say whatever you want about tapespeak its true guys, what did you spend on college?? But wasn't it worth investing in yourself. I dropped $39,000 in college tuition alone not counting grants, books, etc. College today can easily cost you $100,000! Yet people complain about a $6 book or tape. I had to keep buying books in college, quarter after quarter, year after year, more and more books! That now I'm stuck with!"
The difference is that after college, generally you have something financial to show for it, like better career prospects. Like many others, we were advised not to spend money on college and "build the biz". Well, 11 years and $75,000 later, we have nothing to show for it.
Tony said "Any group with 300,000 - 1M people involved is gonna have unethical people. I can't help it that someone in your upline was shady. I have NEVER seen it in mine, or even crossline. Thats the truth."
No, the truth is that they all know how to hide it very well. Since you're not in WWDB you won't recognize the name of our former sponsor, but anyone else in WWDB would, and they are generally thought of as ethical and straightforward people, believe me. I thought everyone in my LOS were ethical, upstanding people, too. I have come to find out that none of them really are what they claimed to be. It is not that "someone" in our upline was shady, it's that they all are.
TD
Tony -
Legitimate businesses are legally and/or contractually obligated to back up income claims with actual data. Claiming your "Emerald" made $XXXXXX is completely meaningless without the same proof that I would require from someone if I was buying their party store or carpet installation business.
You may be happy to expend effort on the word of someone that probably commits fraud every day in the prosecution of his business, but I and most other rational people are not.
Without proof, you are simply another MLM promoter chasing a dream as whimsical as the lottery.
And I am dead serious about my Emerald Challenge. I think that I can stand my own against any of them in net worth, income, and life-style.
What would he have to be afraid of from a working slob like me?
Keith sorry if I hit a nerve - I'm sure you're a great dad (or will be). But honestly those were good examples. Very few people get their Eagle Scout, I was a boy scout, didn't get Eagle, only 1st class. Most people who join a martial art don't get their Blackbelt, but I did. Fewer get their 2nd degree, but I did. Your point was Quixtar is ligit because the overwhelming majority don't go Diamond. Well the overwhelming majority of kida that want to be in the MLB don't either. Same as the overwhelming majority don't get their 2nd degree blackbelt or Eagle Scout. Thats all I was saying.
Just so you know. Microsoft has produced a lot of millionaires. But there are more people who became millionaires without microsoft than with it? True isn't it. Doesn't make it an invalid way to do it though. I guess there's Lots of ways to make a million bucks! Well thats how stupid the argument "more people became millionaires without quixtar than with it" Well no sh!t. Any one of the ways is gonna be less than ALL the others!
BTW, I said I make Over 50k a year, so a couple of you "bright" guys need to go back to 3rd grade and learn how to read. I graduated college with a 3.3 gpa and 4-yr degree. I'm glad I went but it sure was expensive!
And if you're gonna compare prices. First of all 8 books a year is a little low!! If your carrying 15 credits thats 5 classes right there, even at just 1 book per class (some of mine had 3-4) thats five books a semester, 10 a year, 15/yr if your on quarters. $80 a book in college is not high, thats average. And $8 for a book like the ones on the BWW list is average also. When you're adding all those prices, don't forget to add in your $20,000 year tuition x 4-5 years.
Larry Winters in his 1st month at Diamond made back every dollar he had ever spent on tools, meetings, etc! 1 month at Diamond.
If your Emerald was your sponsor you should have reported it to your diamond or to Quixtar or to communiKate. I don't have those problems with my sponsor, that really sucks that you did.
To mlm king, I'm sorry to hear of your experiences too, I've never heard of any being bashed for taking break, I seen people do it, and there not bashed, there barely talked about at all. If you were Gold with 240 people, did those people just disappear? Didn't you renew? Even if your upline said bad things about you, they're still in YOUR downline. Heck, if he wants to work with all those people, that frees you up to work with new people and still get paid on the legs you have. He wouldn't have said anything to make them quit cause then he'd be hurting HIS business. If that happened, I'm sorry he talked bad about you, but he couldn't just take your people. And he wouldn't want them to quit. The story just doesn't make sense. You really should have taken it upline. Someone could have done something, you shouldn't have just thrown away all that hard work. Why would you do that? I'm glad you and your wife have a stronger relationship now, but whether or not they return your calls those 240 people are (were) still in your downline.
Who was your upline and upline Diamond, Emerald etc? Did you say anything to Quixtar, BWW,etc? Sorry again you didn't have the team I've got. I'd never do that to anyone, and I've never seen it done at all!
They'd have nothing to fear Mike since my upline retired from GE in 1993! HE DOESN'T WORK! He's free from a job! You calling yourself a "working slob" by definition means you don't have his lifestyle! HA! I don't care what you make. And it better be more than $150,000 if you're even gonna talk smack to most Britt Emeralds. Not to mention you have to show up at a desk everyday! He's FREE! I'd rather make $40,000 a year and never have to work a job, than make $150,000 but have to work 50 hours a week, 50 weeks a year for the rest of my life!! Sorry Mike, you lose!
Tony said: "Sorry again you didn't have the team I've got. I'd never do that to anyone, and I've never seen it done at all!"
This is exactly what I said when I was still in the business. Almost word for word. "Our team is better", etc. People are NOT what they seem in this biz.
It would have been pointless to go upline to my Diamond or to get Quixtar involved (re: the Kate fiasco), they have every reason to back the Emerald. Shortly after, we discovered lies upon lies that we had been told regarding how much money is made from the system, so it didn't matter to us anymore. We decided that, even if we could finally build it, that we didn't want to make our money in this way.
You may have not seen anything like this, yet. But, odds are, you will. It took us 11 years to see these people for what and who they really are. We counsled closely with this Emerald couple for years, I had NO clue that this would ever happen to us and that they didn't really care about us.
TD
Tony: my upline is an Emerald qualification and works like 60 hours just on this business. Not retired yet, hearing like 2 years he is about to. Have you seen your upline emerald's calendar? Just curious.
Tony> If that happened, I'm sorry he talked bad about you, but he couldn't just take your people. And he wouldn't want them to quit. The story just doesn't make sense. You really should have taken it upline. Someone could have done something, you shouldn't have just thrown away all that hard work. Why would you do that? I'm glad you and your wife have a stronger relationship now, but whether or not they return your calls those 240 people are (were) still in your downline.
Imran> Yeah why didn't he? He didn't even try? Hmmm. Anyway, I'm curious too, how does that happen?
Some documentation is on www.merchantsofdeception.com that how downline is stolen. If Quixtar cancels ur IBO ship, all of ur downline goes to upline automatically right? But i really want to hear it from the person who is claiming that it did happen.
Tony,
Your 15 credits = 5 classes is not entirely accurate. My degree is in biological sciences which carries somewhere between 50-70% of the classes as 4 credit courses. Yes, some classes have more than one book and also some have no books. I did not factor in tuition, you are correct there. I did not because you attacked the concept of purchasing books for education. My illustration was to show that MY books cost less then YOUR system over the four year period of time. If you look over your records (assuming you kept them), you will note that to be the truth. I think I actually paid on average $60 per book. There were some classes per semester that cost me about $200 with everything, but those were rare. Further, my degree, like most others, used the same book for two classes (i.e. Organic Chem, Phyisical Chem, Prin Chem, Bio Chem, etc). The classes that did not fit in here were most of the core classes that had a $15 dollar poetry book or something else of that kind.
As for your emeralds lifestyle, he STILL has a JOB, he just doesn't call it that. He gets up when he wants to; so do I when I work second shift. Your Emerald is trying to set the example is he not? If that is so, he STILL works several hours a day. He goes to houseplans, coffeeshops, etc, etc, etc. He has an office where he sends out Kate messages and responds to email. Sometimes those are times in the car during travel or out with friends. He makes his own schedule, I can do that! I will repeat again, he CAN make a lot of money, but he has to get most of that from selling tapes that serve no other purpose by to keep people in one more day.
One more thing Tony, You spent 40K in college education, you make around, or more than 50K EVERY year. So what's the point? College Education good or bad? Was it a scam?
Then prove it, Tony. I can back up my challenge with incontrovertible proof. Can you?
TD,
Could you tell me who your Emerald sponsor was, if you don't mind me asking. Am curious since you were in WWDB. Doesn't sound like what happened was very ethical on their part. But I wouldn't be surprised, depending on who it was.
Hi emminemm,
Our Emeralds (now Diamonds) were Bob and Shelly Kummer, who counsels with Dave Duncan/Brad Duncan/Greg Duncan. I'm not sure you could get much more supposedly "ethical" than that LOS, if you're in WWDB. Like I said, we're not talking some rogue Emerald somewhere. There is way more to this story that I don't want to get into right now, things that were equally distressing to my Husband and I. Terrible financial advice for one thing.
My problem is not just with the way we were treated, but also with the lies they told us to our face about the profits of the tool system. I just want to make this point very clear so that there is no misunderstanding about why we quit.
TD
Hi Tony,
Actually, you didn't hit a nerve. Pretty much nothing a plugged-in Quixtar distributor says can hit any of my nerves- you spend your time justifying why it's a good thing to work with upline big pins who want you to succeed for only two reasons:
Your tools money
Your volume
You need credibility to hit a nerve with me.
If it were just the volume, I could live with that. But the tools money? It has corrupted both Amway, and it's evil spawn Quixtar. Corrupted it because the corporation tolerates it. End of story.
If you can personally tolerate this bad behaviour, that's on you. You have to live with yourself- but I'll tell you, life is a lot more fun when you don't have to wear blinders!
I'm an arrogant pr*ck and a son-of a-b*tch. I do not suffer fools gladly. Anybody who follows this blog knows that, especially the arrogant part. Anyone who works for me knows it... But I'm loyal, and fair, and my friends are, too.
I'm probably ignored by many because I still believe that MLM's can exist without being totally corrupt, just like any other well-run business can.
I'm a college dropout who makes a large six-figure income. I've got two college-bound daughters who understand the effort involved in real achievement. We travel the world together, along with my wife (my first, and only).
All of that, and I can still look at myself in the mirror, and like what I see. And I've done it all without selling a 50-cent tape for $7.50.
I have a 2nd degree blackbelt... in real life.
Too many, Tony. Too many who have invested time, money, sweat and tears into this business. Plugged in. Gung ho. And it's screwed 'em, Tony. Screwed 'em bad.
No matter how you try, the story is too compelling. The failures. It's not the people, Tony. It's the vehicle.
from tony:
"CK, your stupidity is astounding."
and then:
"Ck, I never called you stupid, correct me if I'm wrong."
Not only are you grossly misinformed with regards to the quixscam business Tony, you are also what you accused me to be:
A liar
thanks TD.
I am not totally surprised. That line's a little hard-core for sure... You really can't be treat people that way if you're a big pin. That really drives a lot of good people away. There gets to be a lot of ego and arrogance. It's not necessary.
Amen to all that, Keith Sr. That is exactly correct. Anyone who knows me says that I am an excellent workhorse. I applied that to my education (I finished a 4 year B.S. in Industrial Biochem) in 4 years, picked up 2 minors and Magna cum Lauda, skipped a masters and went straight for a Ph.D. (I have the gift of acedemics, I realize that many do not). I am also well versed in about any topic I choose to be so in, some of those topics are MLM theory and Cult theory. To this day, I give my life tirelessly to helping others. The people I work with are kids as little as 4 yrs old up to 40-50 year olds. I teach people with high education and with low education. I have not 'lost my dream', I built a bigger one upon leaving because I tell you this, there is NO HELPING PEOPLE ON THE BEACHES OF THE WORLD, ONLY IN THE TRENCHES! You don't need a beach to recharge your battery, you need the Word of God!
I went full force to this business and despite doing "well" volume wise, it still left me destitute in mind, soul, and body. You see, the business system is a genuine mind control device. The hard, driving work leaves you often to exhausted to excercise your body (Yes, there are exceptions to this), and it is DEADLY to the soul. You think that your upline is a great spiritual person? I ask you to compare their teachings to the Word-Faith movement. You will find that is where they lie. Such a movement is a mask of Christ over Satan because the emphasis is on me, Me, ME!
Perhaps if somebody could teach Tony the concept of the "negative sum game", he would better understand why the quixtar business is such a big scam, and not confuse failing in quixtar with failing in other ventures where the proper lack of time, effort and committment wasn't put in.
Any volunteers, or do I have to undertake this task myself?
Yep, TD, my upline Emerald (now Diamond) too.
I'm not sure who's a bigger pr*ck, him or me. But I'm free!
M&M
You've touched on a point...the ego and arrogance of the kingpins (emeralds and above).
This question goes out to all IBOs...where are your leaders, defending the greatest "business" opporrtunity, since apple pie?
I know they know that QBlog is the single most popular place to come to for discussion on quixtar, see the Google results. This is it, this is the front line of the battle we're bringing to Quixtar's front door.
So, where are they? Don't they know quixtar's reputation is getting worse by the day? Are they scared to come on and have a discussion with us? Why do they send in the messenger boys, like tony and m&m, and not come on here like proud IBO leaders should? Are they afraid?
I for one am tired of tapespeak from the little guys. I'm tired of hearing "I'm not rich yet, but someday....blah, blah, blah. And, I know this one guy who makes...blah, blah, blah."
I want to hear from an emerald or above. I want to debate somebody who makes as much money as I do at my J-O-B, and compare lifestyles and how we got there. That is a challenge that has been made before, and never met. So, bring them on. Or do they have no pride, is just a bunch of hot air to be made into some tape?
Keith Sr said,"I'm an arrogant pr*ck and a son-of a-b*tch. I do not suffer fools gladly. Anybody who follows this blog knows that, especially the arrogant part. Anyone who works for me knows it... But I'm loyal, and fair, and my friends are, too.
I'm probably ignored by many because I still believe that MLM's can exist without being totally corrupt, just like any other well-run business can."
I just wanted to say, I have never noticed an arrogance about you Keith. You state valid points, valid concerns, and are often quick to offer advice and agreement.
If you were the "worst" enemy of a IBO, you'd be a godsend to most.
I've never understood why IBOs feel they need to make such radical and harsh statements towards the critics, when, in most cases, the new IBO may have less knowledge than the critic in regards to the Amway/Quixtar business.
My "delta-raised" momma always told me God gave you two ears and one mouth and there was a reason for that.
Surely Tony does not feel he is going to convert the critics here, so why not take advantage of the situation, don't defend, don't go off half cocked in anger, use this site for what it offers...good info from a cross section of dissatisfied consumers.
Take that knowledge and make changes to your business. Don't deride the wealth of knowledge at your disposal....many companies would pay thousands of dollars for just such a "focus group".
Hell, if you call it a business, then at at least act like a professional, when you discuss it.
And in the words of my good IBO friend Mikey at his blog, "Thats all my time, thank you for yours'
:D
On the other hand, there are also big pins possessing a sense of humility and the ego's not so out of whack, Theron Nelson for example.
BTW I have not been sent in here by anyone.
Well this thread seems to be winding down.
But while you are all here, let me ask you about this:
There is a new MLM 'opportunity' making the rounds -- ProAlliance. Anyone have any info on it? Is it just another leg of AmQuix (like TEAM), or is it another MLM beast altogether?
QBlog
No response to my challenge, see below, and I don't expect one.
Wouldn't it be cool if you added a "QBlog extra" or some kind of "forum" or area on your blog where emeralds and above, the Quixtar leadership, could come and openly discuss their business they're so proud of.
You could send an open challenge.
I would be pleasently surprised if anyone showed up, not that they don't visit or wouldn't be aware of the forum, just scared to talk to non-brainwashed people that don't have visions of "tapespeak" floatinng in their head.
What do you think?
At least it would show visitors the irony, that all these guys who claim to be free and retired with nothing to do but fish on the coast, don't have the time to defend their internet "business" for a few minutes on the single most popular, non-biased blog on the internet.
But, have plenty of time to make and sell tapes. We can't ask questions to a tape.
The only way to get rid of cancer is to cut it out. We were under constant by our loving upline for control of our group. At the opens our group filled 95% of the room.
For my upline it was all about ego. We didn't bend over and kiss there ass. I worked this thing like a dog. The more results I produced the more upset it made them. I am sure they would have had no problem with me if I had bent over for them.
I didn't sign up for that crap and niether did my people. I got in to make money. I turned away from from all the lime light (our group was the only group in the province obtaining any real results). This made them made. I taught my
Flee!
Posted by: Christy | May 23, 2005 2:23 PM