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March 17, 2005
Wakeup Factor #4 - Platinum Slaves
By Dorothy Still In Oz in March of Perceptions
TOO MUCH WORK, TOO LITTLE PROFIT — After years of volunteering our efforts, I've finally figured it out. Platinums are the slaves of the system. We do all the grunt work of the business. We service the IBOs, make the retail sales, do the Artistry Clinics, show the board plans, teach the "nuts & bolts", answer a hundred questions a week over voicemail/phone, "counsel" those who ask, and encourage the brokenhearted ones who are trying their best, but just not making it.
We work the functions, come early, stay late, borrow cars to host Diamonds, make fruitbaskets and signs for their hotel rooms, grovel with a smile, and stay up all night, for days on end while telling the Diamonds how grateful we are that they are helping us. Helping us? You mean by coming to our city to speak for a few hours and receiving thousands of our dollars for it? And then they tease us in front of others that we must really love our jobs or we would be Diamonds by now! Gotta love it.
Shouldn't there be decent pay for your efforts at every level? At Platinum, there are so many more costs because the buck stops here as far as Quixtar is concerned. We swallow all the discontinued inventory (I realize this is WWDB only now, but it's still a large expense for me). We refund returned tools (unless we're unethical, which I am not). We go to extra Platinum-only functions at resorts that we can't yet afford. We stay at nicer hotels at the major functions. We drive more miles, are gone more weekends, hand out free CDs and books right and left at the meetings we do. Most of the bonus money we receive goes back into travel, tools, functions and inventory, which means that most of the money we earn from Quixtar is funneled directly or indirectly back into our uplines' pockets (So in a sense, the Diamonds earn ALL the bonus money from Quixtar).
This is A LOT OF WORK on both of our parts for LITTLE profit. To make a respectable RETAIL profit would mean a lot MORE work. 8-10 Hours per Week? Right!
I used to think, "How cool that we will only have to do this for five or so years for riches and freedom!" I didn't like the work. I didn't like the plans, the callin and pickup, sitting for days at functions, doing the Artistry clinics, but I thought it would be worth it. Now I think, "Where could we be right now if we had put this effort into a traditional business for the last 10 years instead?
The "March of Perceptions" is a special Quixtar BLOG project featuring the perceptions of four guest bloggers during the month of March.
Comments
So you've been at this business for many years and dont think its worth all the hard work??? my question for you is why havnt you gotten out then?
ive been working this business for little over a year and i can say i havnt done as much with it as i should i belive this business does work if one works hard enough at it.
after 6 months in the business i gave up almost completely i felt i was lied too my upline said you'll be free in 6 months. but now i relize this is just like any other business if you want the big bucks you gotta bust your hump to get it and as soon as you slow down or take a break your gonna be losing money big time. after regrouping clearing my head and allot of wondering if this was the right thing for me im finally starting to see some profits.
Dorothy,
Excellent post. Randy has not seen the bigger hidden picture yet, but he will. Truly talk to most diamonds about the business and you will find that they are in it for the tool money and the edification that goes with it.
Helping people would really mean being honest and telling people who have been in for years without results to get off the system or borrow tools until they start moving again , with activity.
Helping people would be to get off your ass and help out at the functions like all of the platinums do.
Helping people would be to encourage people to lead more balanced lives instead of investing your whole life in a business.
Helping people would mean having diamonds helping people make phone calls.
Or do most diamonds just not care.
How about this one? - Arrange for limo service to the airport for the upline Q12 trips and then have to "beg" for downline to pitch in to cover the cost.
Or better yet, finally, a year after qualifying as a new Platinum, you get to go on your Platinum trip to Ada. But by then, you're out-of-qualification, not even at 4000 PV anymore. That happened to my upline Platinum.
When we were silvers, we were given a teensy profit from tapes and books cause our upline "Platinum" didn't want to deal with distributing our group's tools (since we were essentially their only leg). When one of my downline returned a tape to me that was broken, my upline lady said to me "there is no such thing as returning tools, you pick up the expense from your tool money - that's what it's for" - Hah!
And speaking of Diamonds and their "help", how about having a qualifier that says whoever does 300 personal PV for the months of April-June, is on standing order and BOM, is on CommuniKate, and has their function ticket gets to "spend quality time at a local amusement park having fun and hanging around your upline Diamonds for those nuggets that just drip from their tongues that could change your business and your life in the blink of an eye". Any takers??
Again, Dorothy, wonderful post!!
I guess Randy failed to read the essay. You know, the essay which is composed entirely of example of "busting one's hump" to make it work.
im free
You must have been in the same WWDB line I was!!!! We used to get offered the 'chance' to associate with the Diamonds if-if-if-if-if-if-if too!!!! I fell for it a few times, unfortunately, then woke up. Our upline Diamond came to our house one time and you'd have thought the president and his entourage were arriving the way our Emerald upline wanted us to do things. Well, live and learn I guess.
Dorothy - reading your posts just reminds me so much of our experiences, although we were not Platinums. I can relate to so much of your story, and I empathize with you. I don't envy your current position...I'm very happy to finally be past that point now, and you'll get there too. Take heart in the fact that by posting here, you truly ARE helping people through this business....just not the way you thought you'd be.
Dorothy ( and all others who have seen the light)
How can I convince my in-law's who are retirement age already that Quixtar will not lead them down a path of freedom? Their income is not so great at it is, and my mother-in-law is expecting AmQ to take care of everything for their future. My Sis-in-law is the driving force for them. (She is their upline) It hurts me to see them give their all to this. They have been in it for 3years. One is an eagle, the other just celebrated making made 1000pv. Is there hope for them?
I just can't understand when people don't read before they react!
Thanks, Dorothy, for the clear message. I don't know anyone who has stated the reality of the situation more accurately, or more tragically.
The A/Qbot mentality of folks like Randy still surprises me, especially after his being involved for less than a couple of years. Two thoughts come to my mind:
1. Randy is representative of those people who are so desperate for any opportunity that reaches beyond their "McJob" that they are willing to suspend their (hopefully) rational judgement. This suspension of judgement and common sense allows them to get sucked into a system that will, in 99+% of the cases, enrich their upline at the expense of their own bank accounts - and will never meet their expectations of long term success
-OR-
2. He's functionally retarded and didn't even read Dorothy's message. He just reacted to the first few words, couldn't continue to sound them out and gave up in frustration. "Some profits", huh? Tell me, how do you calculate ROI on "some profits"?
Given the numerous grammatical errors, lack of substance, and my overall impression of his message, I vote for thought #2
Randy hit the proverbial nail on the head-
ANY business takes hard work and dedication!
If you don't like being a platinum then shoot for the stars and go Diamond!
Can't blame Quixtar for your quitting the business. Blame your attitude.
Keith, in my experience it takes very little time for the bot mentality to materialize, particularly when the subject is young and therefore impressionable. I was prospected at 22 and was quickly sold on the high percentage of professionals involved. Standing order and one or two functions later, I believed that I could make it big. Soon after, I was on three tapes a week and defending BWW with every breath.
The only way a bot can get deprogrammed is to divorce from the system, which for me was easy to do once I discovered the magnitude of the secret tools profits. I could no longer in good conscience buy tapes at $6.50 each when I knew that $6.00 of it was going straight into the upline's pockets. Once off the tapes, my mind cleared.
Sites like Jeff Probandt's did the trick:
http://amquix.info/probst/index.html
all i was trying to say is if your not happy with your position then quit buying into the tools and going to the functions. im not in this to make someone else rich. im in this to make a little extra coin for my self. as far as the books they tell you to buy, you can find most of them in a good book store.
I dont care if your a ibo or own a bookstore if you want to make a good living at it (and you can) then go other there and work for it. if your going the quixtar route then thats going to mean go show as many plans as you can and if you dont get them into the "system" then you switch to your salesmen hat. you try and get them as customers if you follow the plan it does and will work. You have to know what you want and what your will to give up to get it.
Randy, read her past few posts. This is # 4. Read #1 and 2. And you'll know the reason why she can't quit.
Dot
You have got it right.The rewards of the "business" are in the tools.When you look at the profiles those (cribs) were bought with Platinum and below lives.There is no guilt from the kingpins,only more greed! They are slick and always turn it around to why your failing.Nothing wrong with busting your hump to make it if the reward is there.
Randy, what other "legitimate" business tries to make money by first recruiting members for the "opportunity" to make money and if they turn you down ask THEN to be customers?
Still kinda backwards to me.
The products don't "sell themselves"
Roger
Michael, how is it their attitude? They do everything the upline tells them too for ten years, the same upline who says this is a "proven system", they see the system not working, they see the same people doing everything they are told to do and there is no new success.... and it's their attitude?
C'mon man, I had you pegged for better than that.
Roger
Randy, what other "legitimate" business tries to make money by first recruiting members for the "opportunity" to make money and if they turn you down ask THEN to be customers?
Still kinda backwards to me.
The products don't "sell themselves"
Roger
Roger,
because this is how ive gotten 90 percent of my customer base because when i show the plan i leave them a sample pack of the different products quixtar offers and i leave them some materials to look over. i never just sign someone up i want them to make a informed decision. my reason for that is i just signed up i didnt ask, i didnt look into it. and by the time i knew what i relly got into i already spent the money.
and because of the way i run my business i have people in my downline that know what the biz is about so there not droping out the next month in most case's
Randy (sigh)
....."if you follow the plan it does and will work"
Sez who? You? What are you doing right now for profit? Not as much as you're spending, if you're plugged in. You honestly can't believe all that crap you're spewing do you?
I mean seriously, do you? You believe that you can travel the beaches of the world in 2-5 years by trying to recruit people to buy a bunch of overpriced product, then having them spend even more money on useless motivation?
Again, can ANYBODY (Michael?) show me a diamond who was not involved in Amway at all? Just Quixtar. Just one? Anyone?
If not then why not Randy?
Because there aren't any. Not very good stats for a company that can make you free. Not one diamond who was never in Amway.
So if we use diamond as the yardstick of financial freedom, what conclusion can we develop on this information? How many US diamonds, in the past 5 years, have achieved that level in 5 years or less?
ZERO.
Paddle that canoe.
rocket and others:
what is with you people's obsession about a Quixtar only diamond?? First you say it's gotta ONLY be Quixtar and not ever touched Amway, THEN all you people claim there is NO BLOODY DIFFERENCE between Amway and Quixtar!
Your ignorance shines through like the fresh morning son.
It's used as a timeline my learned friend. Yes, Quixtar and Amway are the same.
The point is, Quixtar has been around for 5 years. Nobody has gone diamond from startup to now.
Get it? Nobody who started 5 years ago or sooner is a diamond yet.
It's not an obsession. Your tapes are the obsession.
It's a very revealing statistic, which would lead a logical person to believe that maybe this isn't what it was presented to be.
Reality sucks, don't it?
Good luck with your business.
First, it's been done before, more than once. People have gone diamond in two years. And that's the basis for why they make that statement.
We can get into the reasons why it's not occured in the very recent timeframe. Should we get into that? What difference does it make to you? If someone did go diamond in 5 years solely in Quixtar it's not going to change YOUR mind about anything at all, will it?
>>We can get into the reasons why it's not occured in the very recent timeframe. Should we get into that?
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YES please!!!
>>What difference does it make to you?
---------------
What difference does it make to YOU that what difference it makes to rocket? I mean every one is voicing their opinions. So??
>>If someone did go diamond in 5 years solely in Quixtar it's not going to change YOUR mind about anything at all, will it?
------------------------------
Maybe it won't. BUT the point is that Quixtar is a joke. They promise 2-5 years freedom and NO one has done it yet.
Amway, I wasn't in it. I was in Quixtar. Amway / quixtar is used as a rediculous logic by IBOs. It is rediculous logic. And deceptive.
- Quixtar is not Amway
- There are many daimonds. (all started in amway)
I mean what is it? Yet you say
>>First you say it's gotta ONLY be Quixtar and not ever touched Amway, THEN all you people claim there is NO BLOODY DIFFERENCE between Amway and Quixtar!
----------------
Difference is that it is
- exposing Quixtar lie # 5654789217 that it takes 2-5 year to go diamond
- Flawed logic of Quixtar of hiding amway name yet taking credit for awmay success all the while claiming it's not amway?
One word. Quixtar sucks, amawy sucks. And IBOs who lie, sucks and are the scum of society. There are some doing it honestly, God bless them. An overwhelming majority is not.
There are probably 101 reasons why it's not happened in the last five years. I won't be listing them all here tonight, but a few, but a start anyway:
1. "It's the economy, stupid!" Remember 9-11 and how MOST ALL business tanked after that? And how the enonomy was headed for the dumper prior to that, even before the 2000 election? Most of the country was demoralized for awhile. Plan showing I am sure fell off as well.
2. The changeover to Quixtar. Yeah everybody was excited for the new "internet" biz alright. But as I saw it mentioned in another commentary, the tech savvy types who got sponsored in all the excitement were generally not a good fit for MLM. Lots of dropout as a result. Remember that IMC, Client, Member sheet in Worlwide or whatever they called it, for Quixtar, Amway 2000 and every combination thereof? Made my head hurt just looking at it. It wasn't just a transition from Amway to Q, it was both businesses people had for a while, in WWG anyway. People were trying to figure this thing out for a while, what it was even going to be.
3. Going to direct fulfillment in other lines. I think BWW and other lines took a huge hit in attrition. WWG kept the old way and actually lost fewer distributors than anyone else.
4. And we can get into a huge discussion on culture, how it's changed in the last five years, since Bush was elected anyway. Seems like the "soldiers" feel a lesser need to go out and try to change America, living room by living room, since there is an administration more in tune with the Amway/Quixtar culture.
5. Focus on one type of demographic when bringing people into this business. Once you saturate all the evangelical churches and preach one type of politics and religion at functions, you're really limiting the numbers you can conceivably sponsor in and retain.
6. People hang around for all the social benefits rather than focus on what it actually is: a business. Just like having a hobby, belonging to a church, being a huge fan of a particular sports team, etc. it's all the same. Having a group to identify with. Building a business really doesn't matter for some.
7. You have to sponsor EVERYONE if they want to get in, believe it or not, it's required to do that. We've gotten our share of crazies, basket cases, thieves, you name it. Plus all the people who need to be baby-sat constantly.
Well there's a few, anyone care to add any?
Rocket
i guess you didnt relly read everything i wrote.
i clearly said im not in this to make someone else rich wich means i dont go to functions because im not in a group like wwdm im only a member of quixtar. i dont but into the bs like wwdb spews out . i mean come on they try and tell you "with out us you will fale" who the hell are they, they have no clue who i am or how hard i work.
Randy, if you are a hard worker, then you won't be needing Quixtar. That, in my opinion, has got to be the worst way to try and make a couple extra bucks in the world. Product has a very limited market outside Quixtar.
Emminemm, if you think the economy is the #1 reason for Quixtar's numbers sucking badly, you are the one who is stupid. Have you followed stocks? I do, because I have some. The stocks in the company I am currently investing in have gone up $12.00 a share. Most stocks in the past 4 years have been on the up.
So a lot of people weren't a good fit for MLM? What happened to recruitment tactics like sponsoring anyone who can fog up a mirror?
YOU obviously have no understanding of the ways real businesses work. Even if I only had 1 share that particular stock I referred to, I have still made $12.00.
And THAT is more than the vast majority of most system using IBO's will make in their entire Quixtar endeavor.
The reason that there have been no 2-5 year diamonds in recent history is because the marketing plan sucks rocks, and because people are more and more in the know about the deception involved in Quixtar. All someone has to do is type in Quixtar (especially in Google) to find out the REAL story.
Your lack of business knowledge is very amusing. I look forward to another response from you. I enjoy cleaning out my closet, Emminemm.
Hate to interrupt here guys, but this is to
Disenchanted IBO:
No, I'm not in WWDB, I was in BWW from 2001-June 2004. We still have our IBO license, but are inactive. So this kind of stuff happens all over - in every line of sponsorship.
Oh, and Emminemm, when you plesent the sales and marketing plan, do you use the 2-5 year plan?
I'll bet you do. That should really interest you then, if nobody has actually done it in the US in the past 5 years.
How would you respond if somebody asked you during a presentation, "How many people have achieved this goal since Quixtar started?"
I would be interested in any IBO's response. The correct answer is zero.
What would all you keener plan showers say?
Couldn't resist this one Rocket:
Any well-trained IBO will say "I'm not there yet, but I'm right on track." Course it does get embarrassing when they are asked point blank how many years they've been in, but here in the South, most people don't ask. I didn't.
>>There are probably 101 reasons why it's not happened in the last five years. I won't be listing them all here tonight, but a few, but a start anyway:
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This post has given this blog new vigor...I haven't read something so asinine in a long time...well I probably have but this nearly takes the cake...not that we amount to much in the quixtar world, but remember a fella by the name of Casey Combden...in case you aren't aware he's Canadian and the Canadian market place returned over %18 in the last two years, yet surprise surprise no diamonds...LOL...thanks for the laugh...
rocket:
"all your keener plan showers?? haha
Then your comment most stocks in the last 4 years have been on the up.... I am STILL LAUGHING MY SIDE HURTS!
What a totally ignoramus comment. Maybe a select few... the market didn't make any significant recovery until early 2004.
So your a big time market player, eh? FYI I lost more money in the stock market 2000-2004 then you'll ever see.
First off, I did not list these things in order of importance.
If you want to know what the more important factors are they include the fact the A/Q business runs in cycles, periods of little or no growth and other times when growth is good. Otherwise WWG would never have taken off and experienced the growth spurts that did occur-- you know that. Especially what was seen in the Duncans' businesses in the 90's. The question asked currently is why it's not seen growth in the last five years.
I was in quixtar for 2 years part of DIBG under BWW in Canada. What a joke, these guys push the tools more then Quixtar it self. Wonder why? In the time I was involved I never seen any of the platiums move on..I actually think that Diamond Phil Davies actually went back cause the Platiums never requalified. We spent over 200 bucks for a bus trip to a function an then 1 month prior we found out we could not attend due family reasons but could not get our money back. Why not? there were still peple that signed up after us, but we got a sob story that the BUSes were paid for up front by the diamond and he needed to be reimbused. What a joke because they announced that the they needed all money 2 weeks prior to arrange the buses, I guess our mistake was paying up front in good faith. In Hindsight it was actually a blessing, opened our eyes up to the money pit this really is. Think about a major function for a moment. They charge $100 a person and have nearly 15000 people attend that's 1.5 million. You can't tell me that the building rents for anymore then say 250K that's 1.25M in the pocket for the diamonds... real motivational. My suggestion get out before you get stuck in a go nowhere situation. They say GO DIAMOND it's actually GO BROKE TRYING....
Good points emminemm. Big question is will it ever see that growth? Give every other person has internet access all the time and they are in habit of checking out online for ANY thing? There is a blog load of info, well, negativity about Quixtar. This wasn't in amway. Also, qualification period was very less as compared to now so many ppl bought pins as well.
eminemm,
There hasn't been any growth in 30+ years! The number of distributors/IBOs has hovererd right at around 350,000 since the 70's. NO business, even in the last five years has a turnover rate that bad. Quixtar can't keep people. They loose them just as fast as they recruit them.
Anyone out there care to tell me if they'd ever work for a company with a 50% turnover rate? Or go to a college with a 50% graduation rate?
The only thing that may seem appealing where the chances of success can carry a 50% rate of success is gambling.
Oh... I guess we're getting close to the mark here. :o)
Hi Dorothy,
Another excellent post - thank you - absolutely right on the money (or lack thereof).
Randy and Michael,
I know how you both feel...I felt exactly the same way - Let me tell you what I found, however, that you may be interested in - If you are honest enough with yourself about your business, ask yourself these 2 questions:
(1) How much money did you make last month. (Not how big was your PV check, how much did you get to keep after paying your downline and for all your system expenses.)
I would be willing to bet 2 things:
a. It was not positive
b. If you claim that it was positive, you would be unwilling to share documented proof of that fact.
and (2)
Is anyone in your upline really growing - moving on, building volume and keeping it.
Like I said, I understand how you feel because I was there, but when you stop to asnwer those 2 questions honestly, without just parroting what you have been spoon fed by your upline or by a tape, you will be amazed at what you see.
In the meantime, best wishes and email me if you want a good deal on some boxes of tools.
Joe
How many people, when showing the plan, advise prospects that the bulk of the diamonds' cash comes from the tools and functions - not from the Amway products?
Nobody mentioned this to me when they showed me the plan. Which means one of two things:
1. I was lied to by the person who tried to sponsor me.
2. Someone upline from my potential sponsor lied to him.
All I can say is "God bless the internet". I certainly saved myself a lot of cash and a lot of embarrassment by not involving myself in this. Thank goodness I didn't alienate my friends by telling the same lies that were told to me.
Another reason Q won't grow is because of the internet! All the negativity on it from AUS onward, however much of it legit and some not creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thus all the complainers and critics just reinforces to someone new looking here, will think it won't grow and thus, won't work it!!!
I'm not saying the systems don't need to clean up, that's another topic.
Emminemm,
First question- are you really Dean Kosage?
Only a Diamond or above in WWDB could make enough money in the business to lose it in the stock market :-)
BTW - nice shot, Jason
Oh, and Dean - do you still beat your wife? Or should I say, ex-wife?
The Quixtar business is frustrating, to be sure. Trying to develop people as leaders who don't come from a business background. Motivate job-mentality people to do things outside their comfort zones. Try and create an environment of success in an otherwise negative and jaded world - yes, Quixtar is frustrating, just like almost every other businees opportunity out there.
Save for this:
Quixtar, and it's predecessor Amway, absolutely suck as a business opportunity. Their MLM compensation plan, especially at the lower pin levels, sucks.
The compensation plan at the middle level sucks.
And their compensation plan at the middle top level is mediocre.
So the comp plan sucks - now if you really still want to do MLM, look around. Oh, I know that there are people on this board that hate all "pyramid sales" structures- but for the average Joe who wants to make a few bucks, hell, if you're going to do it, the opportunity should at least be worthwhile. It certainly should not put you into debt buying the "system".
A/Q is, and always was, sold on the basis of free enterprise. Quit if you want to, "return to your fur-lined rut", "stay broke", man oh man I've heard (and shamefully) said it all. But if a truly business minded person (even if they are already A/Qbots) will step away and look at the financial returns from Quixtar, versus time invested - they may wind up getting the same sinking feeling in the gut that so many of us at this blog experienced. What was sold to us as free enterprise was a program of smoke and mirrors.
Admitting that there is a problem is the first step in doing something to solve the problem.
One last thing: a request and an observation. Maybe I'm just pissing into the wind asking this, but is it too much to ask (especially of the pro-Q contributors) that you even once run through what you write and edit it BEFORE you click on the post button? I understand that someone who identifies as "Imran Aziz" probably has English as a second language. At least his thoughts are corgent and his arguments well thought out. But when I read a message from Mr. Bubba A/Qbot who couldn't form a sentence to save his life nor spell any word correctly that had more than three letters, I tend to get caught up in their stupidity and prejudge their (usually) meaningless drivel.
Emminemm, you are truly Amway material.
Check oyt the TSX (Toronto Stock Exchange since you probably didn't know what that was). Pick a stock, I don't care which one, any one that's over 5 years in business (real business, not like your little rinky dink outfit,) and run the numbers for the past 5 years.
I'll clue you in, unless you pick the absolute worst (let's face it, you believe in Quixtar so it's possible) the trend will be an upswing.
Use your brain before you spout off and just blab. Has there been a mutual fund crisis? No. This is because the markets stay strong, for the most part.
I'm really sure that you are as affluent as you say you are as well. Oh, you're naming it before you're claiming it.
That'll take you far.
FYI, intelligernt successful people generally know how to construct sentences and spell.
If they were not listed in order, then I'd recommend you don't number them.
A real business person would already know that........
Guess you're not one.
Make it a great day!!! Hooked on phonics worked for me!!!!
TTFN
Sweet Christmas! Did that guy Joe B. just break out the "feel, felt, found?!"
Your Boy-
I think it was intentional *wide grin*
I sure like what he had to say, though I had to laugh at this one:
"FYI, intelligernt successful people generally know how to construct sentences and spell." Intelligernt, huh? Didn't come up at dictionary.com
So I'm picky.*even wider grin*
Jason>Anyone out there care to tell me if they'd ever work for a company with a 50% turnover rate? Or go to a college with a 50% graduation rate?
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No offense jason but 50% turnover aint much problemo, given remaining 50% make some reasonable $$$ for their effort. I have worked for dot coms in the dot bomb era ya know ;)
50% ppl quit Quixtar first year. Even more if u read Amquix.info and some platinum indices.
I don't appreciate anyone impugning the character of anyone in these posts. Seems to be your method here folks. A lot of you are coarse, rude and arrogant. Yeah, you talk about how the System is "abusive" to people. You guys are not much better.
I really don't care what any of you think of my grammar. Talk about not staying on topic. Rocket you never answered my charge in Factor #3 comments.
"So your a big time market player, eh? FYI I lost more money in the stock market 2000-2004 then you'll ever see. "
Not at all arrogant there, my friend.
You are truly a clASS act.
Can't deal with the facts, so start talking about how rude we all are.
A great business would not be so indefensible, doncha think?
Later
Sorry, M&M, your anger might have been directed at me.
I'll admit that I do get fired up about the subject, though.
My feeling is that almost anyone who continues to fleece the sheep with a corrupt system HAS a character that is infinitely impugnable.
I think that our point here is to bring the truth out, and not entirely to call names and poke fun at the abusers. For years, we couldn't do it- get the truth out- because we had no vehicle.
I know a lot of really nice people in "The Business."
I know a lot of really bad ones, too.
Seems like you let your arrogance show before anyone else here did- and if you are who I think you are, I'd be happy to put my balance sheet up against yours. Now THAT would be fun! Always remember, the best defense against libel is the truth.
Oh the irony! The stock crash was due to a "mob mentality" that internet companies were going to be the "wave of the future" and everybody was going to get rich quick, if they just invested everything they had in the stock market or companies themselves. Well, it was all a bunch of hype. Few looked at the "nuts and bolts". The fundamentals were not there and if you really looked at their balance sheets (income and expenses), and if you looked at how they really proposed to make money, that is a profit, most of these companies were just a bunch of hot air.
Sound familiar Quixtar? You have nothing to offer! Your product is not worth the price! Your reputation is horrible and getting worse by the day. Though you do it to yourselves, thanks to us, your being exposed. Ha, ha! The collateral damage you cause to peoples lives is unbelievable, until you experience it for yourself. That's why we're here. We want people to avoid the nightmare we have experienced in one way or another, that is our benevolant motive.
So, if you want to make some scum bag even richer, while he toys with your mind and laughs all the way to the bank, if you want to lose family and friends, all the while being mocked and made fun of, if you want to lose your life to this and be a part of their little social group of IBOs who really need therapy in a different place than their "motivational" functions, then go for it! Defend it! You'll lose in the end, just like the mob who lost everything they had in the stock market.
I recall in 2000, my accounting professor told us that he had not invested a single dime in the market, because the fundementals were not there. He worried, because all his fellow professors were getting rich and he worried he was missing out. But, he felt that there was something wrong with the all the hype. He warned us then, and he was right in the end. This guy was smart. He got rich in real estate, sold his company, and taught accounting without pay (his choice, he was wealthy enough) at a top university. Voted best profeesor year in and year out.
We are like that professor, echoing a warning. The fundemantals aren't there! Quixtar is a scam and they're liars! Get out, while you can!
I really did lose a lot :(
oh well.
Rocket, I live in the U.S. not Canada, ever hear of the NASDAQ you moron?
Well if people here would be a little more respectful like Imran you might actually get some discussion. Ooops sorry about point #2, he had it coming though.
Boy oh boy! I said Quixtar sucks and I'm respectfull ;)
Maybe thats it! I have a problem with opportunity and questions about it BUT i know there are MANY ibos who are trying to work this business honestly and with integrity. Yes some frequent here as well I'm sure. Vast majority are doing what they think is right to do. Like I was. My major beef is the ppl who KNOW that
- How to fetch as much tool $$ as they can KNOWING tool won't do any good to a very dominant majority. I have this problem with ANY business that does that. Well Quixtar is the only one that I know who is getting away with it, give its secretness.
- Tricking ppl into plan. PLEASE, don't hide the word Quixtar. Just stop it.
- Not giving enough info to prospects. Tell them what BSMAA is. Tell them how much time and expenses are required. Tell them BEFORE they sign up.
- Don't lie. Ppl are methodologically lied to. Like my upline said, "How can some one lose money in this business", "It's exploding", It's not Amway� etc. Can we agree many ppl are lied to by Quixtar IBOs? Can we agree many ppl have lost time and money mounting to millions of hours and Billions of dollars? Can we agree Quixtar is getting away with all this? That IS the problem.
- Don't call names. BOTH sides. No one is moron, or bot, or broke loser. I believe majority are good, intelligent, honest ppl. Well, I take my comment back about morons :) Point is, what good name calling would do? It just looks bad on person who uses it.
Randy,
You said:
"and because of the way i run my business i have people in my downline that know what the biz is about so there not droping out the next month in most case's"
So, am I mistaken and you are not a "tools" person? You are interested in building abusiness where people buy from you with intent of you getting profit? and not just signing up people to buy from themselves and you get a "rebate" based on their purchases? I may have misunderstood you.
Roger
im free said:
Any well-trained IBO will say "I'm not there yet, but I'm right on track." Course it does get embarrassing when they are asked point blank how many years they've been in, but here in the South, most people don't ask. I didn't.
and I replied:
Well, when I was in Amway, the standard answer to how long you've been in was "I've been in awhile, but I wasn't active...now that I'm pushing it I'll be Diamond in 2-5 years"
... funny, no one I knew went Diamond while we were in... and my upline has all but disapeered from existance...including our Diamond.
Roger
eminemm said:
"Another reason Q won't grow is because of the internet! All the negativity on it from AUS onward, however much of it legit and some not creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thus all the complainers and critics just reinforces to someone new looking here, will think it won't grow and thus, won't work it!!!
I'm not saying the systems don't need to clean up, that's another topic."
and I said:
PLEASE!!! The internet killed Quixtar's growth? I wish. Look around, I'll bet you can find a wealth of sites complaining about Wal-Mart, and other big name retailers.... The average person complaining about Wally-world coming in and killing off the smaller stores, or having rotten benefits sure hasn't hurt them... course they aren't trying to HIDE from the world in the business they do. They don't require you to buy stuff you don't need in order to save money.
And yes, If I have a job paying $35K a year, and I do all my shopping only at Wal-mart... I'll bet I have more "spending" money leftover for myself than an IBO making $50K from his J.O.B. who only buys from Q (and the "necessary" tools).
Yep, Wal-mart sure doesn't pay me to shop there though... no 3 or 6% "refund check at the end of the month.... just 30-60% CHEAPER AT THE REGISTER.
Silly me. You can insert other store names, and would still be ahead of IBO. I know, I am watching my wife buy $800 worth of stuff EACH F'ING MONTH that she could buy locally cheaper by a few hundred dollars, so she can get $50 in "rebate"
Roger
Emminemm.
By your own admission, you lost money in the stock market. I have not. And I'm the moron?
Typical Amspeak. I succeed where you have failed, and I'm the moron.
Yes, I know what NASDAQ is. Funny though, lots of Americans have invested in the same stocks I have. Obviously we are better informed than you.
But I'm the moron?
Go Diamond!!
Good luck getting people to buy your overpriced product. Have fun prospecting, and trying to explain how it's a real business.
To stay on subject; I watched as my Platinums repeatedly get the "honor" (as they would say ) to be unpaid gophers at functions (ticket takers/hand stampers, work at the tables selling books/tapes, driving the big pins around, getting them refreshments, etc.) They generally missed about 1/3 to 1/2 of the major speakers while edifying. But yet they would brag about sitting in the closest 1/3 of the floor seats(when they were allowed to sit).
Sorry, I didn't get into the biz to be unpaid "help".
For M&M:
** 1. "It's the economy, stupid!" Remember 9-11 and how MOST ALL business tanked after that? And how the enonomy was headed for the dumper prior to that, even before the 2000 election? Most of the country was demoralized for awhile. Plan showing I am sure fell off as well.**
It is 2005 now, 9/11 excuses don't cut it - and usually AmQuix benefits from a bad economy - i.e. more people are "looking". And no, most business did not "tank" after 9/11. Slow down, yes, but people still bought food, toilet paper, detergent, etc. People cut way back on the disposable income side - travelling, new cars, etc. Those industries have recovered well, what's Q's excuse?
2. **The changeover to Quixtar. **
Again, it is 2005 - should be all worked out now.
3. Going to direct fulfillment in other lines. I think BWW and other lines took a huge hit in attrition. WWG kept the old way and actually lost fewer distributors than anyone else.
Direct fulfillment started in 1998, before the change to Q. It's 2005 now!!
**4. And we can get into a huge discussion on culture, how it's changed in the last five years, since Bush was elected anyway. Seems like the "soldiers" feel a lesser need to go out and try to change America, living room by living room, since there is an administration more in tune with the Amway/Quixtar culture.**
I thought Q was a business - why the need to "change America"? Which administration is in power really has not much effect on "culture" Policy is a different story. Despite the "culture" people need soap.
**5. Focus on one type of demographic when bringing people into this business. Once you saturate all the evangelical churches and preach one type of politics and religion at functions, you're really limiting the numbers you can conceivably sponsor in and retain. **
So do you "profile" people before STP? I thought anyone who was breathing was eligible.
You are right on the mark with functions - that is where I would lose people I had sponsored as they didn't want to be talked down to/preached to. Until that changes, the attrition rate will be horrible (and for some reason, no pro Q person wants to address this very real fact)
**6. People hang around for all the social benefits rather than focus on what it actually is: a business. Just like having a hobby, belonging to a church, being a huge fan of a particular sports team, etc. it's all the same. Having a group to identify with. Building a business really doesn't matter for some.**
True
**7. You have to sponsor EVERYONE if they want to get in, believe it or not, it's required to do that. We've gotten our share of crazies, basket cases, thieves, you name it. Plus all the people who need to be baby-sat constantly. **
Sponsor better - qualify people better.
If you show this to everyone, why do you expect everyone is a go-getter/builder?
Remember - YOU contacted them - YOU showed them the plan - YOU sponsored them. So if they are duds in the biz - it's YOUR fault, not theirs. You should have weeded them out in the first place.
Now this blog isn't allowing Quixtar to grow because of all the negative. IF ONLY we were so powerful!(I wish)
If there is no hope - why stay in??
Oh yes - I've made money in stocks the past 12 years ( I'm a super-moron!!). Even in a bear market there are those things called dividends. I didn't invest in the dot.coms as I couldn't see the logic of paying $250/share for a company that hadn't made a penny.
Investment rule #1 - understand what you're investing in.
...and yes, a lot of people I sponsored had no business being "in business". That was MY fault.
Even though I was following the "proven" system of show everyone - it was still my fault for putting my discernment aside.
from eminem:
"3. Going to direct fulfillment in other lines. I think BWW and other lines took a huge hit in attrition. WWG kept the old way and actually lost fewer distributors than anyone else."
Direct fulfillment was started by the amway corporation in order to free up more of a distributor's time to build their businesses via prospecting.
How in the world does that translate into a higher distributor attrition rate?
Oh, and Emminemm, when you plesent the sales and marketing plan, do you use the 2-5 year plan?
I'll bet you do. That should really interest you then, if nobody has actually done it in the US in the past 5 years.
For somebody who demands answers, you sure don't provide many.
Probably because you don't have one.
Go diamond, Big Guy. I can't wait until you see me from the top, looking down on me.
But wait I probably will (sigh)
To paraphrase emminemm:
Quixtar won't grow because of the internet and all the negativity on it.
Some people call it "negativity". I call it "useful information".
When I was shown the plan, my would-be sponsor did not tell me that the bulk of the diamonds' income comes from the books, tapes and seminars.
How many IBOs tell their prospects at the plan showing where the high pins get their money from?
The point is this: my would-be sponsor was, at best, hiding the truth and, at worst, telling me an outright lie.
The information on the internet was not "negativity". It was simply the full picture of how the business works. Based on this information, I made the very studious and informed decision not to part-take in the business.
The fact that I came so close to signing up still makes my blood run cold to this day. Heaven knows what it must be like for those who didn't find out about the tool money until after they signed up.
Now to answer your question rocket, no, there has been no Q only diamond so far. It's been done before though. Folks have gone diamond in two years, you knew that I hope. What is significantly different about the S&M plan that causes you to think differently?????
I can give you an example:
Let's say I present a diet plan that, if you follow it rigorously for 2-5 years you will lose 50 pounds, you overweight slug (not you Rocket, unless you really are fat). To do this you will have to follow a special diet with foods you need to buy from another source than you had before. You will need to do special exercises. You will need to associate with like minded people once a month. You will need to read to increase your self-image, and listen to tapes to follow the example and teachings of those of did lose the weight, etc, etc. (by the way, is the PROGRAM FLAWED if some people make some money off the program?) Not asking if it's always ethical in all circumstances, I am asking if the program still works.
So let's say it did work for a significant number of people in the program's past. And a lot of others maybe lost 40 lbs, 30, 20, etc. Some not at all, maybe because they didn't perform all key aspects of the program. Maybe we don't know why for everyone.
So we know the program does work for some people. (the issue is not that is worked for a lot of people, maybe only a handful--but that's what you're asking rocket--name only one) But no one joining up in last 5 years has lost the 50 pounds. (though some have who have been at it a little longer have!) Why?
It doesn't mean the diet doesn't work because it worked before.
Using your diet anology, people who go on this diet not only do not lose weight, they get fatter for the most part.
So nobody has lost the 50 lbs. yet in 2-5 years? But that is what the Sales & marketing plan claims?
Who goes and hears a plan that does not involve freedom in 2-5 years?
The masses in this business lose money.
The fat ones are the deceptive tools kingpins.
Thing I like about M&M is he is willing to beat, no, to flog a dead horse.
Q is a non-starter, no matter how you look at it. Yeah, maybe if you did it for a little side income- but there's the conundrum: if it weren't put out as a way to make really big money, few would do it. But if it's advertised as giving the possibility of big money, many more will be attracted. Attracted, even if the promises are smoke and mirrors, the "success" mostly unachievable.
A true paradox.
rocket,
dude it's been done before. Like the analogy, it just takes one to lose 50 lbs. under your standard. You said name just one. There are people qualifying today. But difference does it make if they got in 7 years ago or whenever. People have done it in 2 years man. It has happened. There is really nothing wrong with presenting that as a possibility. NO program can guarantee anyone's success, diet or otherwise.
If I get up in front of 1000 people and present a way to lose 1 lb. (ONE POUND) and NO ONE DOES IT, does it mean the program is phoney???
emminemm said:
"So let's say it did work for a significant number of people in the program's past" & "So we know the program does work for some people. (the issue is not that is worked for a lot of people, maybe only a handful--"
and I say:
how can a "significant number of people" be less than 1% overall? Or a "handful"?
Point is, again, the claim is it's an "easy to follow" (not easy to do) PROVEN system.
Not too mention every diet/excercise plan I've seen usually has a disclaimer of their biggest weight losses are "not typical" and "results may vary".
Quixtar tools pushers never claim results vary, you either succeed on the tools or you fail cause you are not on them. They state you will go Diamond if you do "all this". Their proof? Orrin went Diamond in 10 years under Yager.... and he is not currently even teaching the system he did it with. He is teaching HIS version of the Yager system using the stacking method (from Yager in the 80s) which Orrin did not do himself...but interjected into his group AFTER he went Diamond.
Weight loss analogy? ... flawed.
I also think the weight loss analogy is flawed, because how many IBO's truly make it big using the system only, and not using the tool income or some other shady dealings like buying legs or stealing legs? The answer is not many. To use the weight loss analogy, it would be like a good percentage of those who do lose 50 pounds get lyposuction to knock of the last 10 or 15 pounds just so they can claim the system worked for them!
At the end of the day, nobody has gone diamond in less than 5 years in a 5 year span.
It is presented as a 2-5 year plan.
However many people have signed up in the past 5 years have not achieved the purpose of the plan they signed up for.
Yeah, it sucks pretty much any way you slice it.
But you hang in there M&M. You might be the catalyst that everyone's been looking for.
rocket,
I'll make it simple:
It has been done before, many times.
Folks have gone diamond in as little as two years, you know that.
The business is built the same as in Amway. It's essentially the same business. The lines of sponsorship are retained as they were in Amway. Sales and Marketing Plan is the same as in Amway. Your point is moot.
Oh it's simple all right.
The plan doesn't deliver what it proclaims it does.....
Later Big M
Hey M&M, when is the last time a person went diamond in less then five years? Has anything changed between then and now? And if yes, will these changes effect the future chances of an IBO attaining a diamond pin within two to five years?
You have already answered some of these questions. The fact is things have changed, making it much more difficult for an IBO to get to diamond in less then five years. The biggest difference is what we are doing right now. Ten years ago, there was no Quixtar or Amway Blog, and no possible open discussion. Ten years ago, the tool income was a guarded secret. But thanks to Ruth Carter, Scott Larsen, QBlog and everyone else contributing to the discussion about AmQuix, the AmQuix society isn't as closed and secret as it used to be, and people can do their own research and come up with their own conclusions.
And while it's too early to call any trends, the quick result for AmQuix is a bit of stagnation. Sure Quixtar sales went up about 6% last year, but how much did their core prices go up? The number of IBO's has been stagnant for 30 years, but now that people can find this information and can ask themselves if millions have quit over the last 30 years/it did not work for them, will it work for me?
It's a different game, M&M, and just like any investor will tell you past performance is no indicator of future results, the same holds true for AmQuix. And in my opinion, it is the proliferation of "negative" sites that will ultimately lead to big changes for AmQuix. Not today, and probably not tomorrow, but sometime in the future.
dmm:
Roger doesn't agree with you. (read his post below).
So you are saying if we didn't have these sites, there would be a LOT more success in the business, a LOT more people going diamond in two to five years. A LOT more people moving up faster and more profitable. And a LOT LESS attrition. I won't argue with that!
Well,
I guess all that's left for you to do is find some sort of inaccuracy or libelous slander and you can get these sites shut down.
Good luck with that.
Not exactly, M&M. It's not that cut and dry of a situation. Without the internet and blogs like this, there would be more success, but it would still all be an illusion. The buy from yourself and teach others to do so model acts very similarly to a Ponzi scam, and the more participants in a Ponzi scam, the more people who make money. However, the ratio to people making money and people losing money remains the same, meaning that proportionally, the more people making money, the proportionally more people losing money!
With blogs like this on and other websites, there are less people joining up to be part of the scam, and people aren't staying in as long. The result is proportionally, there are the same huge amount of people losing money to the people profitting, but with less people on the bottom, the people at the top of the pyramid aren't doing as well.
dmm do you want to back up that statement legally?
Which statement? That with a buy from yourself and teach others to do so system, the money works in a way similar to a Ponzi scheme? Sure.
Why don't we start here, from the QBlog forum. http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?t=381
Or how about here from the lawblawg (written by lawdawg, who also participates on this blog.
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2004/08/single-most-important-word-in-mlm.html
Here's a quote, "'Prohibited marketing scheme' means a pyramid sales scheme, Ponzi scheme, chain marketing scheme, or other marketing plan or program in which a person participates under a condition that he or she make a payment, directly or indirectly, to receive the right, license or opportunity to derive income as a participant primarily from: (1) the recruitment of additional recruits by the participant, program promoter or others; or (2) non-retail sales made to or by such recruits."
Notice the inclusion of Ponzi schemes and pyramid sales schemes come not from me, but from the FTC.
We can also look here, as the PSA is a very good, well written site that contains a lot more information then I can present. http://www.pyramidschemealert.org/PSAMain/resources/ppsabstract.html
I hope that is a good start for you, M&M, and I hope I'm responding to the correct questioned statement. If there is another statement you wish me to back up, please quote it.
By the way, do you know what would happen to a Ponzi scheme if it were uncovered and more people quit it and/or never signed up? Hint: Look at what is happening to Quixtar and how many diamonds have broke in the last five years!
dmm, I have heard much of this before.
Since you were on the subject of Wal-Mart, here's one for ya:
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html
By the way, how much is your time worth to you? $100/hr? $300/hr? $500/hr? Mine is, certainly. Please come back and tell me how much it's worth to you to schlepp through Wal-Mart or Sam's and buy your paper towels for 32 cents cheaper.
can you back up that 32 cents with URLS to online prices?
Roger
Yes, I think out noble friend has taken a few editorial liberties with his pricing. Here's what I found with my handy dandy price list:
I compared a case of Meadowbrook 10 rolls of 90 sheets (Z5820) to Scott Towels I bought yesterday at Wal-Mart.
Amway - 25.76 for 10 rolls of 90 sheets
Add 4% shipping = 26.79 for 10 rolls = 2.68/roll
Wal Mart - 2 rolls of Scott towels 112 sheets/roll was 1.69 = .85/roll
The difference comes to 1.83 PER ROLL. That's over 5 times the 32 cents you claim, my learned friend.
And I didn't even have to buy in bulk from Wal-Mart.
Weird, huh?
tell me how much your time is worth to you!
Time is relative, M&M. I pass right by a Target on my way to and from work. If I fell out of my car on my way, chances are, I'd fall in the Target lot. I also have flexable work hours, meaning I can come in anywhere between 6:00 a.m. and leave anytime before 10:00 p.m., as long as I work an eight hour day. Most of my tp trips, I take either right at 8:00 when Target opens, or on my way home from work, usually on a Tuesday or Wednesday (not busy shopping days). I can get in and out in a matter of minutes, and be home in less then an hour.
In contrast, no matter how fast I can surf the net, I still have to wait for the delivery man. And unless I'm willing to pay significantly more for overnight delivery, I'm probably going to have to wait two to three business days before my order arrives! And if we are talking toilet paper, if I have to really go and I'm out of tp, either I go to Target and wait only a matter of minutes to use my tp, or I order online and wait a matter of days. How much is your time worth to you when nature calls, M&M?
As for critisizing Wal-Mart, it is a red herring. If you wish to argue the benefits and negatives of Wally-World, start a Wal-Mart blog and invite me over. But this is QUIXTARBlog, and unless we are talking about comparing/contrasting Quixtar with Wal-Mart, critisizing Wal-Mart is just an attempt at you changing the discussion by pointing the blame elsewhere. It doesn't make Quixtar any better, and your tactic won't work either.
And for the record, I'm no fan of Wal-Mart or Target either, as they do plenty of things that can be critisized. Just as an informed consumer on a budget, these two offer the best possible prices on goods and it makes economic sense for me to shop there. I find Target better then Wal-Mart for a variety of reasons, but again, this isn't the place to discuss it.
Well YOU refer to Wal-Mart a lot. Don't accuse me of changing the subject when I bring it up. Maybe you need to know a thing or two about them if that's where you're going to take your dollars.
Look my time is such all these things can be ordered weekly by my sec'y. I really don't care the cost, haven't researched that. My time is worth more than doing that. For someone like you on shoestring budget, maybe it might make sense. Don't worry, I have an ample suppy of tp on hand.
There is a PRICE to pay for shopping at Wal-Mart. A price much GREATER than your supposed savings.
A price in terms of loss of jobs in North America, among other things. A lot of good manufacturing jobs being replaced by service jobs paying a lot less.
You are saving a few dollars but lots of folks are getting poorer by your shopping habits!
Consider THAT when comtemplating your shopping decisions!
Thanks for assuming I'm on a shoestring budget, M&M. Another AmQuix Bot falsity, and very unbecomming of a business person. I said I was on a budget, not a shoestring one.
I bring up Wal-Mart and Target to make a point about shopping online versus shopping at traditional brick and mortar stores (like hmmm, let's see, Wal-Mart and Target!). I do so to compare and contrast with Quixtar, which is the topic of conversation around here. To point out Wal-Mart's problems without reference to Quixtar is to attempt to bring a red herring to the conversation. Wal-Mart taking jobs from people is a topic worthy of dicussion, and there may be valid points of conversation to talk about here if you wish to attempt to show why Quixtar is better. But you didn't in your initial post.
Last, I use the tp point about being able to shop and use right away because it there is a funny mental image that goes with being without toilet paper. I could any consumable product, be it paper towels, soaps, or even non-consumables like hardware tools. The point is most people will prefer the "convienance" of being able to use an item they purchased right away versus waiting for the delivery man. It's why Sears and Roebuck, once the industry leader in catalog (buy at home and wait for a delivery man) sales now does only about 3% of their total business by catalog.
Last, if you want to talk about Wal-Mart and job loss, I feel for the people who lose their jobs. But I believe in the market economy and this is the next step in economic evolution. Just like sustenance farmers are a thing of a past, a lot of small mom and pop stores will not be able to compete in the marketplace. And in our ever global world, if American workers can't compete, either they need to find a way to, or find another line of work. If it sounds cold, it is. But I'm a fiscal conservative who also has faith in the American people to come up with new jobs and new technologies to keep the people gainfully employed. I just hope our education system can meet the necessary obligations.
" I really don't care the cost, haven't researched that."
You are truly a business savy guy. Give me a break. Everyone who is involved in moving product cares about what the final cost is, in a real business that is.
"You are saving a few dollars but lots of folks are getting poorer by your shopping habits!"
Yeah, but at least they are getting something for their money, which is more than what 99% of people in Amway achieve. Pretty tough for you to take the moral high road on this issue when the almost everyone who gets involved in Amway walks away poorer. And yes, the whole "Wal-Mart is destroying America" thing is just a red herring. I can dig up a lot of dirt on Unicef too, or show a site that says dinosaurs don't exist. Ultimately it's up to the person reading to make a decision.
Wal-Mart is the way business has gone. No one person can change that. Obviously its what the people wanted, lower prices. I don't necessarily think its good in all ways, but it is what it is.
As far as ethics, I think it's safe to say that both businesses could do a whole lot better.
But for you to say the prices don't matter to you tells me that you are not as business minded as you would like people to think.
My time is worth a lot to me, and that's why I would NEVER AGAIN waste my time trying to get people in on this little rinky dink business. That itself is a colossal waste of time.
Nice Try.
I am sure Em-bot has a lot of tp on hand...he is so full of sh*t he needs it constantly!
Come on, let's give Em a big Ambot welcom
(sung to the tune of the big Hanson hit...)
"Em-bot, Em-bot, dooby-dop, do bot..ye-ah ye-ah..Em-bot, Em-bot dooby dop...."
Dude has no clue to how business works. He is gonna go reeeeel far!
does df stand for dumb-f***?
rocket and dmm:
what kind of businesses do you guys run?
I think someone asked that over on that forum. You guys sure got defensive on that question.
As far as how I can see Q works better in product procurement, I will simply state I can obtain most non-food consumables through one source, have it delivered and not worry about further. Otherwise, as I explained, my time is between $100 to $500 an hour and not worth it to make trips to Sams, Costco, Wal-Mart and stand in line, etc. Neither is it for a lot of business people or professionals in real estate, insurance, medical, etc. BTW rocket, the price of Meadowbrook paper towels in U.S. is 30/36.99 retail without delivery or bonus refund. That's about 1.23/roll and I think the average normal grocery store price is about .89 so I am not that far off the mark on my original estimate (which was a wild guess actually). Am I concerned about THAT compared to what I may be producing hourly? (and I am not talking about being in Q). I reiterate: I don't care, when it comes to things like that.
Bringing up Wal-Mart is not a red herring. It is being brought up on this site numerous times as a preferable alternative to shopping through Q. So it should be addressed as well. No, it is not a good alternative, unless the only thing you are concerned about is your own little issue about saving your cents. Think beyond that. I hope you have some sort of conscience when you spend your money, where it goes and what it does to the economy as a whole. Otherwise I really don't care where you shop, I am not trying to convince you to shop Q, but anywhere but Wal-Mart.
Actually I wish Q would get rid of all the crap in their Store for More that's made in China. Admittedly, that would be hard to do. But think how popular a catalog could be if it was selling merchandise primarily made in North America. Certainly it would be unique in this day and age.
Do I need to run a business to know a crap factory of a business when I see one? Sheesh, another deflection.
Your prices suck. Bottom line. Therefore, nobody has interest in your products except for the people trying to get rich off of it.
FYI, I ran an oilfield business before I left that to attain other goals. I could still be there, I did well at it. I just moved on and worked towards my career that I am now in. So there. What kind of business do you run? I don't mean your little Amway business either. I mean what REAL business do you run, where you have employees and call all the shots etc....?
That's too bad you don't care about what your products cost, because most consumers and true millionaires do consider cost in virtually all of their purchases. Read the Millionaire next door. You will find a marked difference between those people depicted and the leaders in Amway.
Your argument is flawed about not caring what things cost. Some people would call that poor financial management.
You said:
"No, it is not a good alternative, unless the only thing you are concerned about is your own little issue about saving your cents."
You may want to do a little bit of reading on how the economy works, because that is just a warped view, and forgive me, but it sounds a lot like you listen a lot, and think very little. Lower prices are where people shop. It's reality, so face it, and lose the Wal-Mart is the true enemy of the people. We all know Wal-Mart isn't pure, it doesn't change anything about Quixtar. It is so a red herring you are using to avoid the real issue, which is your prices suck.
I am curious though as to how you arrive at the value of your time to be $100 and $500 per hour. Which is it? $250? $100 on Thursdays and $500 on Mondays? Do you have an actual formula you could share so we could see how you arrived at that particular figure? It is quite vague, but again, you Ambots aren't too slick at quantifying any of your data.
If you do not provide a formula to validate your hourly worth claims, then it will simply be considered another load of crap from your upline.
Better call them quick to find out what they meant when they told you that.
I think many people would be anxious to do their numbers in that formula to figure out how one would arrive at your conclusion.
So let's see it.
You say you spend minutes at one place to do all your shopping, then wait for the shipping. I do the majority of my shopping at one place too. Like I said earlier, I do most of my shopping at Target. And it doesn't take me hours, but I stop in on my way to/from work, and usually in/out in less then 30 minutes. Then I take the 10 minute drive home, and use my products whenever I want.
And while this may not guarantee the absolute lowest price like driving store to store and looking for bargains in each, I do agree that most people do levy their time for money. What it does do, however, is pretty much guarantee I'll be within 5% of the lowest possible price, as Target is very competitive, price-wise. And it is always cheaper then AmQuix.
As for what business I run, I've been an employee with the same company for almost six years. I used to help run a family business for about 10 years, much of which was just part time as it coincided with my college years. I've been considering going out on my own, but haven't found the right opportunity to do so yet, but it will probably happen sometime in the next couple of years, and possibly sooner.
Is this the end of Emminemm? Has the closet been cleaned out? Are there no more answers? Has the well dried up already?
Funny how that happens when the facts sneak up from behind and kick you a$$ while wearing cowboy boots
ouch
C'ya big M. Unless you were just tied up at a major function.
I hope not for your sake.
rocket,
I am out skiing. Do you guys EVER take a break from this?? I think you need to get off your A$$ and find something to do, anything, do something fun for a change. Or you'll end up a bitter old man like you are starting to act like now, one with an A$$ as wide as a couch.
Did you check your brains in at the door when you signed up for A?? Surprising that you did, considering you had some experience in business.
Do you buy all your clothes at Wal-Mart too? Must be a sharp-looking guy there!
Emm
p.s. hey just giving you a bad time, no real hard feelings ever. I decided to post here again, looked like you were starting to miss me.
dmm,
while it's true you may be able to take care of your consumable expenditures at Target in the time you do, it's a little different for me. For business, I need to have supplies purchased by the case pretty much, entailing trips to Costco or Sams. Try get in and outta there in 10 minutes on a busy evening or weekend.
As for you rocket, call any dentist, physician, insurance agent, real estate agent or any high producing service professional and ask them what their time generally averages out per hour. And it varies a lot in each profession, depending what type of procedure or practice is being done. Then you'll understand why I'd rather not take time to shop for consumables if necessary. And it takes away from my free time as well. It is such a small part of my business expenses as a total, the savings per roll of paper towells doesn't amount to anything on my business bottom line really. Remember, the saying, "penny-wise, pound foolish."
To emminemm:
If your time is so valuable that you can't price compare, why are you on this site arguing about it? That seems like a even greater waste of time.
Hey there big guy!! Thought you'd gone the way of all the others!
I loved your little defensive reply, but you never really did give an answer. Refresher:
I am curious though as to how you arrive at the value of your time to be $100 and $500 per hour. Which is it? $250? $100 on Thursdays and $500 on Mondays? Do you have an actual formula you could share so we could see how you arrived at that particular figure? It is quite vague, but again, you Ambots aren't too slick at quantifying any of your data.
If you do not provide a formula to validate your hourly worth claims, then it will simply be considered another load of crap from your upline.
I didn't ask about others, they're not sitting there saying their time is such and such an hour...you are. And a VERY vague number at that.
Do tell, how did you arrive at that?
my upline told me to say this? hahahaha..... uh noooooo. Dave it's not my Q income I'm talking about.
Irregardless of what income you are talking about, how did you arrive at the dollar value of your time?
Yet again, another non-response.
Surprise Surprise.
PS, my name's not Dave.
Why did it take you 16 minutes to figure out your name wasn't Dave?
It's not my Q income so what difference does it make to you? It's variations of the types of services I would be providing, just like the examples I gave you.
Well crafted, but yet, no answer.
What part do you have a hard time comprehending? It's a fairly straightforward question to your claim.
Your lack of answer is precisely what I would expect from you, after all, you are just told to say these things, it doesn't matter if they have merit!!
I can only surmise that you don't really have an answer, therefore, I now know how seriously to take you.
Before you say you don't have to explain anything to me, remember, you brought it up with your little fable about what you're time is worth. A very vague fable at that.
I suspected as much. Have fun with your non prosperous business. Obviously you think you'll do well.
Until the facts are brought out.
Later
Then I would have to tell you what my exact occupation is, and what I make per various services. Is this what you are asking for? And I would have to prove that by giving out my name, address and phone number, so it could be verified, right? Post it her for the whole world to see? Right? Otherwise you won't accept anything less? Do you want my Sch. C posted here too? For all my businesses?
I see.
So what if I did? In my eyes I don't think it will change anything about you or anything you believe. Maybe for you to take me a little more seriously. But I don't crave that kind of thing really. You say the upline's words come out of my mouth, so you believe. I take that as a compliment. I know you've told yourself I really don't speak exactly like the rest of the ambots and I hope I don't. You do have to admit though, this is sort of an enigma for you in a way. Why? I can tell you this, what you've thought so far about who I am is most likely wrong, or maybe not. I don't know. Heck I've even been accused of being Dean Kosage. What a hoot!
Hate to burst your bubble, but this little rocket is really not on my radar. Whether or not I feel the need to HAVE to prove anything to you generally is not one of the worries I wake up with every day.
Looks like it's just you and me left in this comment thread; no one else really seemed much interested in how our little discussion is ending up.
Before you get all red-faced and fire off another one of your gems, try to remember to let go of your anger, just a little, every day. I do acknowledge what you have gone through. It's not good. Don't think I don't know that, for even a moment.
Emminemm
Ahhhhh, you pretend to be so profound and thoughtful, a warrior poet of speech.
I am NOT asking for you to prove your income in any way, shape or form. At all.
You said:
"Otherwise, as I explained, my time is between $100 to $500 an hour"
All I asked was what the formula was that you base that figure on. I don't care if you make $1500 or a billion dollars a year.
That's it. Is there a formula? Is that a guess? What is the math you do to decide that this is what your time is worth?
I was just hoping that you would be able to provide a template of sorts and fill in the blanks to get a rough idea of what my time is worth. Obviously you have this, no?
Looks like there's room for one more comment here, as QBlog usually pulls the pin at 99 comments.
I'm not red in the face, you make me laugh. You just seem so typical of an Amway guy, making claims that you cannot support.
Like I said, I don't care how much you earn in or outside of Quixtar, nor do I care what you do for a living outside Quixtar or what you make at that occupation.
All I wanted to know was how does one figure out what their own time is worth in dollar values?
I'm sure you can provide that, can you not? Obviously you know how it's done, otherwise you wouldn't just write that without thinking about it right? You weren't just shooting off at the mouth were you?
Were you?
I have little comments here. The business really works. But there are changes need to be made. It is the time for the new generations like us the one in 18-30 years old. I have examine left and right of the business plan. Computed the numbers. It works all the time. Here is my little ideas. If the platinum will share the 25% bonus check with each every downlines. Everybody wins. It does not matter if you are 50PV or 1000PV, everyone shares the bonus (after taken out the tools expenses). The key word call consolidations. There are many BIG CORPORATIONS outhere are doing the same thing. FORD, LINCOLN, MERCURY, MAZDA, JAGUAR some how are sharing some parts in the vehicles they manufacturing. This is what we call cost effectives. Actually college degree can put into work in this business. We need more honest people in the business who willing to help and share. Not to take advantages off the new people and downlines. Look at this. If everything you purchase earn you 20% bonus back, will you still going to the store? If consolidating orders will mininize the "Delivery cost" would people actually buy online? If the Standing Order Tapes were given to those who work the business for free because they earn it, will people take it more seriously to work the business? If the upline sending the people who seriously working the business to the major functions, then why would it be big expense. Bottom line is, how much the upline willing to share his/her bonus with everyone else. Crown Ambassadors are making tenth of millions of dollars, how many people those money can bless? If this make sense, please write me comments. Thanks.
AMEN, Dorothy. Your post is right on. Especially the observation about where we'd be if we'd put the same efforts into our careers for the last X years. Thank you for your participation in this project of Oblog. :)
Posted by: ladytw | March 17, 2005 4:26 PM