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March 15, 2005
Wakeup Factor #3 - No Success
By Dorothy Still In Oz in March of Perceptions
I think I really started to see that the system does not work when I realized that NOBODY IS MOVING ON. Ok, well, WWDB has had anywhere from one to twelve new Diamonds per year since I've been; so obviously somebody is moving on, but even many of those have gone backwards since first qualifying as Diamonds.
I was in for about two to three years before I started to notice this lack of success. It takes two years to get your bearings on who people are and who's growing. In the beginning, it seems like everybody is "moving on" because there are people crossing stage at every function.
I've watched most Platinums stay at Platinum, while a few go on to Emerald, and only a handful to Diamond. For ten years I blamed this on the work habit. "Obviously, most are not willing to do the work." We've blamed our own lack of growth on our weak work habit. In WWDB, work habit is defined as "show 10 or sponsor 2."
Then, as we approached Platinum and became "leaders," I looked at my own downline in a different way than ever before. I saw their frustration at giving this their all, but never moving ahead. I watched some prospect and prospect, but never show the plan. I watched some STP and STP, but never sponsor. I watched some sponsor and sponsor, but never go Eagle. And yes, I even watched some retail and retail, but never pass 300pv.
Why? Why weren't they moving on? After all AmQuix products are awesome and the system works, so they must need to listen to another tape or go to another function to get what they need — the magic ingredient that will cause them to do it, right? The Diamonds have such great wisdom and knowledge; if only we could be more like them?
These thoughts nagged at me for a long time, but after ten years, that way of thinking wasn't acceptable anymore. I KNEW these people. I don't really know the Diamonds and the Emeralds, but I DO know my downline; they are my friends. So I know that they are giving it their all. As PW mentioned in the comments of my story, "Can the amount of work you did be defined by the results you got?" and "How much work do you have to do with no results before it counts as work?" It took me over a decade to accept that many of us ARE giving everything we've got, and the truth is that THE SYSTEM DOESN'T WORK. Yes, a very small few will make it, but the majority won't. (We will NOT get into "The Pyramid Is Negative" here. This is how I saw it before I had a clue about TPIN, saturation, etc.)
The final straw for me was at an FED during my "wakeup" year, when I looked out at thousands of hopeful faces realizing that many were the same faces I'd been looking at for years. I include Platinums most of all in this, because Platinum is a painful place to sit for a long period of time. Platinums do ALL the work for no pay. Once you go Platinum, it's nearly impossible to disappear quietly because everyone is looking to you for hope. The other Platinums become your friends — peer pressure increases dramatically.
In one moment, I saw the scam.
So few Diamonds — so many people who want to be. Surely, more than fifty couples here have put in the "Fast Track" effort? Surely more than fifty in the 10+ years we've been in? And if not, then why not? And why don't they do something else?
Because the Diamonds tell them not to. In a hundred different ways with a hundred different stories, the Diamonds tell them they will be losers if they don't keep trying. That they will live in a "rut" forever, because nothing else will give them "freedom" except this. That they are winners just for being at FED. That they need to hold on and stay in until they make it.
ALL THEY NEED TO DO IS LISTEN TO ANOTHER TAPE AND ATTEND ANOTHER FUNCTION, and then go out and do it.
In one moment, the veil was lifted from my eyes, and I saw it.
The "March of Perceptions" is a special Quixtar BLOG project featuring the perceptions of four guest bloggers during the month of March.
Comments
Dorothy,
Your story really moved me because my awakening was very similar to yours. Even though I very much wanted to believe what I was seeing and being told, I always had that feeling that something just wasn't right. I stopped listening to the CDs for a couple of weeks, and all of a sudden, the things that I saw and heard in our open meetings and seminars just made me feel sick. I saw the same people trying to be fired up when you saw in their eyes that they were hurting. Our open got smaller week after week.
I reluctantly went to Spring Conference last year, and that was the final straw. The same people on stage, the same faces in the crowd, and despite all of their claims of how the business was growing, the crowd got smaller at each function. At that point, I could hear the lies for what they were, and left shortly thereafter.
I'm sorry to hear that you gave so much of your life to this "business". I still have old friends that are still involved after many years of no progress whatsoever, despite working their butts off. I hope that one day they wake up the same way that you did.
My awakening back in the Amway days, was mainly due in part to religion.... Being way down the line from Dexter, and in a group directly answerable to the InterNET business of his, religion got ballied about a bit too much.
As an Agnostic, it probably caused me to take a deeper look sooner than I would of had I just been looking at the business and not knowing what to look at.
It was at a Cleveland seminar with Dex and Birdie as the big speakers, and they were having the "Sunday Services"... and the Goldman's made such a big deal of "well it's Sunday", let's talk religion. The same Goldman's whom my upline bragged "used to be Jewish" until this business.
Roger
Our waking up was somewhat similar. Although we were in just for a year. We saw same ppl, at same level in every open ad seminar, and we started wondering where is the 'exploding growth'.
Lack of income with no matter what we do made us think and we quit. My sponsor is still in. Lets see how long he stays.
During my 5 year tenure in the amquix business, I came across a lot of IBOs who were in Dorothy's position - individuals who achieved the 7500 PV level, and who were all fired up about moving on bigtime in the business, and then just flat out falling on their faces.
These individuals would then be brainwashed to continue to "hang in there", but you could see their energy & enthusiasm slowly start to disappear - before they eventually wound up dropping out all together.
Equally as sad were all the garbage stories that then started to circulate around as to why these directs left the business, i.e. sick family members, working too many hours on their jobs, moving away to build another group in a different state etc. Of course, if you ever asked an organizational big pin (emerald & above) as to what happened with these IBOs, more often than not you would get different variations of the "none of your business - just focus on your own group" immature type of responses.
I used to feel sorry for these former directs, up until the time that my wife & I dropped out of the quixtar business by not renewing for the calendar year 2002. I then realized at that time that it was those former directs who, after dropping out, were the ones who were feeling sorry for people like us who remained in the amquix business as the result of being still too blinded to see the error of our ways by joining this ludicrous business in the first place.
That was one of the best commentaries on the experience of the business I have read.
I think a lot og people have had that experience in one way or another - we were preparing to go to FED in 2002 and that morning my wife was very sick and I decided that we should not go - it was the first function we missed sinced 1994.
Instead, we drove to the Finger Lakes region of NY, spent time with each other, had a great time, and found out that she was sick because we were expecting our first child!
Because of a very rough pregnancy, we never went back and slowly stopped listening to tapes because we were so busy trying to keep her healthy.
When I did listen to a tape after not having heard one for about 4 months, I just wanted to pulll my car over and cry.
I had watched our emerald's group wither and had seen numerous other emeralds either lose their group or just walk away. I suspect that a lot of that had to do with tools income but I hnave no way of actually knowing that.
At the same time I read through AmQuix.info's analysis again - I had come to the realization that without retail, you are destined to fail - and the whole thing made perfect sense.
The only people that are left in the leg of my upline emeralds business that I was in are the ones that were successful developing retail that could sustain the numerous expenses that are encountered. Everyone else just ran out of money.
The truly ironic thing is that my wife and I were building the business so that when we had children, she would not have to work and could stay at home with the children.
when we stopped going to functions, we found that we had enough money to get out of debt, and when we got out of the tools system all together, we found that we could live on just one income and she could stay at home without the business.
I know this is too long of a comment, but your post really hit home.
Thanks,
Joe
Thank you Dorothy......it's eerie, but we had a very similiar experience. In for nine years, reached Platinum, with 2-4000 groups, a 2500 group and 2-1000's...but absolutely no stability. We saw our downline struggle, with little lasting success. We finally said "Enough" shortly after 9/11 when all the Diamonds cared about was function attendance, not the fears of all about what was happening or how deeply it affected the country. This Blog and Forum has helped me greatly realize the propaganda and get over the sense of failure.
I echo all of these sentiments, and share a feeling of sadness too. Because we were eagles for awhile, and true silvers for 2 months and "fake" silvers for over a year, we were in a leadership position, and hung out with a lot of the platinums and above. Everybody knew the reality of where they were but had to put on a front, for the "big team". In an effort to remain "positive", and follow the rules of no crosslining, you couldn't just go to one of your buddies and say, you know, I thought it would be better at this level, or I'm starting to realize that this isn't going to work. You just had to be so fake. I got sick of it - seriously pyschologically sick, and was in therapy for a year for depression.
There are many couples in our area (Charlotte NC) who are Sapphires (probably "broker" than Platinums, especially if there isn't any side volume). Even Larry Winters calls them "Sap-phires" (Saps). I'm sure that they either feel like it's too late to turn back now, or they really believe they are going Diamond someday.
I'm just glad I woke up and smelled the coffee (kool-aid) before it was too late. Now if only my husband would.
Thanks Dorothy for an "awesome" post - I now hate that word. Thanks for a wonderful post - there that's better.
My wife and I had a names list of over 800 people. We went through it, showing plans, making phone calls and getting everything from about a hundred meetings to "not interested" to "NEVER call me about this AGAIN."
800 people. That's 800 people who will not get in with ANYONE. 800. And that's not counting the cold contacts!
Nobody can tell me that the people who were not successful simply didn't do the work. That is a big load of tapes.
Dorothy, your story was SO it. Thanks.
PW
I have a question,
Why does it work for some and not for others then as you say in your story?
You are right on one point, the system doesn't work-for you, but obviously it is working for some people right? Contradicting stories as usual...
My point is, if the system doesn't work for you, find a system that does work for you.
Michael,
Glad to see you are back.
I'll venture a (polite) response to that question of yours with a qualifier question or two.
Why are there so few that make it if the plan is so easy? Is it really because like JEnnifer7Lee says that people are not trying..... 99% of the people are not trying?
And how easy is it to find a new "system" when most of the systems taught insulate you from everyone else, not only those outside the business but those in other parts (LOA/LOS) as well?
Why does a three-card monty table setup in the street of (insert some major cuty) still get people to play? How come when you "see" a "winner" there it doesn't come to mind that they are in cahoots with the dealer?
Why do people still fall for the many variations of the Nigerian 4-1-9 scam?
No offense Michael, you know I like you and all, but asking "why didn't you find another system" is a pretty weak defense when you know the extent some of the systems go to control people. As for why do some make it? I had a theory on that with Orrin Woodward, after he had been following the 2-5 year plan for 10 years, he finally became Diamond... he had a 5-figure income to support his "tools" and function habit along the way until he lasted long enough to get good size group under him when Dex and the others brought him into the "business".
I'm still waiting for that list of Quixtar-only (never signed up in Amway) Diamonds who did it in 2-5 years?
Nice to have you back!
Roger
Michael -
Just stop it. You just read a dozen accounts of different people from different backgrounds, who were in different LOS in different areas of the country. In each case, they gave it their all, FOR YEARS, using the systems that were provided by the LOS. It didn't work.
Now, consider that "it" doesn't work, for virtually EVERYONE who tries it. "It" fails. Everywhere, in every LOS, in every area of the country, when used by every type of person.
Your comment made me think of someone dropping a ball on his foot at a bowling alley. A normal person witnessing it would offer help . . . . like telling the person to AVOID dropping the ball on his foot and LEAVING to get medical attention.
From your comment, I bet you'd insist that he STAY there and drop EVERY ball on his foot before you'd accept the FACT that dropping a ball on one's foot is a bad thing - every time.
OK, that analogy leaves out the fact that a few people must be able to drop the ball on their foot and be a better person for it (i.e. become successful/wealthy in Q) and would agree to stay in & keep doing it.
BUT . . . . as the stories have related, that group does NOT get bigger, and for the most part, it doesn't even change!! So, if you, in your OWN experience, see the SAME people in the SAME position month after month, WHY would you believe that YOU would break the cycle & zoom to the top? That's not a personal attack, or a rhetorical question. Why would you believe it? The ONLY answer I could fathom was that "they" told you that you could do it. Once you take away the vested interest "they" have for telling you that, all you're left with is an empty promise.
My experience was short & sweet (well, bittersweet) in Q. I signed up & told my sponsor that I'd evaluate it for 6 months w/o exeeding $100 per month expense. If it seemed to have potential after that, I'd treat it like a business - that I would expect a profit from. Within a month, he was pressuring me to jump in full force & break my business plan - to attend functions & get on the system. I heard a big pin say "If you don't get them to go to the 1st convention, they won't even be around for the next one."
He was right. By month 6, I saw no growth in my upline's team, had no success retailing in my area, and was told politely by EVERY person on my list that Q was Amway and it's ridiculous. They were right, too. Once I stopped spending & attending, all the warm-hearted junk my sponsors had fed me was gone. They contacted me twice in the last 6 months of my 1st year, and after that I never heard from them again. Now, it's not that I wanted to hear from them, but it goes to show that what we're fed to get in & stay in is disingenuous and has nothing to do with friendship or good business prectices. To Q, I say, "Goodbye, Good luck, and Good Riddence."
And to you, Michael, I say, "Show us the money" that your chosen system is showering you with. It's a business. A business that generates a net loss for virtually every one who tries it.
Chris,
Hey I see the business in a different light. Does that make me wrong? NO! It's my damn perception!
There is one phrase that every successful person lives by and you all know what that is-
Winners never quit and quitters never win!
Leaders don't quit. If your downline needs help- step up to the plate, be a man and HELP THEM! If your upline doesn't work or doesn't know what to do, FIND ONE THAT DOES!
Everyone has the exact same opportunity to get into this business and go places with it. It's no secret that 90% of people fail to become leaders. It's those 10% that step up to the plate, and do the work they are required to do! It doesn't mean they are better than we are, it means they did the work and perserveered!
If your 7500PV and your downline is struggling, your main job is to show those people how you got to 7500PV, not tuck your tail between your legs, quit, and run away! If they don't want to be 7500PV, then meet them at their needs!
Leaders step up to the challenge, quitters run and hide!
As far as my dialouge,
Quitters call it tapespeak, leaders call it knowledge!
Roger, it's great to be back, even though we have our differences, thanks for your PC help buddy!
Mikey-
I'll tell you why it works for SOME people:
SOME people are criminals.
SOME people have no conscience.
SOME people are deluded by the brainwashing into thinking that the standing ovations are genuine, when they are actually scripted by the system.
SOME people don't want to accept or believe that. Some of us do.
If criminality works, should we endorse it? If one form of criminality doesn't work for me, should I seek another?
I do not run, and I do not hide. I stand by my contentions.
PW
PW,
Criminals huh? That's misery at its finest!
Since we are in the mood of throwing links around to "support" our claims, here's one for ya:
http://www.mlmlegal.com/landmark.html
I quote your little article Mikey:
"Amway required its representatives to engage in retail selling, under the "ten retail customer policy" which appeared in the agreement that representatives signed upon enrollment. This rule required that representatives make 10 sales to retail customers as a qualification for eligibility to receive commissions and bonuses on sales/purchases made by other representatives in their personal sales organization."
Uh - huh. Obviously if you believe that this is happening in the majority LOS, then you would believe that this system will work for everyone.
Give me a break. So you show us a link, which proves that we're all wrong, huh? Pfft
click here:
http://internet.ocii.com/~dpwozney/dinosaur.htm
Oh, look everyone! See? They never existed! This guy has an article that says so!
So now today we have foundd out 2 things, thanks to Michael's incredible logic:
1. Dinosaurs never existed
2. Amway is the most legal business on the planet.
Those 2 statements deserve to be in the same post, because they both have about the same merit.
What are you doing here anyway Mikey? Thought you weren't going to spend your time on negativity anymore?
Or do you just say stuff?
Thought so.
Michael said:
There is one phrase that every successful person lives by and you all know what that is-
Winners never quit and quitters never win!
and I say... like Imran alwayus says, if you never quit and you never win...you are still a loser. Both statements are available in fortune cookies somewhere I'm sure.... both are cliche.
Michael said:
Leaders don't quit. If your downline needs help- step up to the plate, be a man and HELP THEM! If your upline doesn't work or doesn't know what to do, FIND ONE THAT DOES!
and I say:
what does "being a man" have to do with it?
And how are you supposed to find an upline that helps if no "crosslining" is allowed? How do you switch upline without going inactive for 2 years according to Quixtar rules? I mean, I know how they can dumo you, but changing your lines is not something easily done for the rank and file IBO. Oh, and lets not forget if you try to leave your upline and you have a decent group, they will surely go to Quixtar and get your group from under you... they have the power...not you. It's been done.
Michael said:
those 10% that step up to the plate
and I say:
man if it was 10% and not the less than 1% it is, it might not be such a bad scam the tools organizations are pulling over on everyone. At least there would be new blood on a regular basis!
as for the knowledge of "tapespeak"... I have yet to see much of any true "business knowledge" passed down from the tools business. Rah-rah may work at a basketball game where you got out and perform on adrenaline... it's not a good business strategy.
Hope the PC is behaving for you MIchael!
Roger
http://www.mlmlegal.com/landmark.html
I read it... what's that got to do with the scam the tools organizations perpetrate on the IBOs for their own profit" in the misleading of said IBOs in believing they became rich as Diamonds by Amway/Quixtar and not the "tools" they promote to the closed system of IBOs?
What has that got to do with Amway/Quixtar's complacency to allow said abuses in the name of profit, to which they are now complicit accomplices to the scam as a "legal" shell company?
What About Quixtar? is it not just the "money laundering" arm of the criminal organizations?
Roger
And yes Michael, it is tapespeak. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. I'm sure you realize this since you decided to point it out, in anticipation of somebody calling you on it.
Do you have any of your own ideas, or are you just going to repeat everything you're told?
Do you still remember how to think for yourself?
speaking of retailing....
can anyone tell me how much product is actually retailed in Melaleuca??? Anyone?
(I also heard they are growing pretty good also)
Emminemm
Why would it matter how much product Melaleuca is retailing? We're talking about Quixtar/Amway.
Unless you're trying to change the topic, since Michael isn't that great at debating facts. I wouldn't want him representing me either.
rocket:
It matters because you are SO concerned about how much retail is being done to make a MLM legitimate. So is Melaleuca legit???? If you say it is, then your argument is lost. If you say no, then that flies in the face of a MLM actually growing at a good clip without the aspect of retailing.
rocket:
It matters because you are SO concerned about how much retail is being done to make a MLM legitimate. So is Melaleuca legit???? If you say it is, then your argument is lost. If you say no, then that flies in the face of a MLM actually growing at a good clip without the aspect of retailing.
IMO Melu has some retailing. But how? MLM pushy styled!
http://tinyurl.com/6uth9
See how Meluluca rep ran after being exposed.
Looking for a comment eh bud?
OK, here it is.
I don't hear very many people pissed off for being tricked into a Melaleuca meeting.
I have virtually no knowledge of Melaleuca.
I haven't heard may people upset at it though.
I know Quixtar has a 70% retail rule. Perhaps instead of focussing on how that is ignored for the most part, you choose to deflect the topic.
Just like when some people get into trouble, they start pointing out the faults of others to take the heat off themselves.
Do you like avoiding the straight issue, or do you feel uncomfortable when people ask if this is Amway?
I bet you do.
rocket:
No... you are the one deflecting here. I just want you to ANSWER MY QUESTION YES OR NO. You need not know much about Melaleuca to answer to question below. Retail rules generally apply industry-wide as a part of anti-pyramid laws. Retailing seemed to be very important to you as a mark of legitimacy.
The charge: Retail selling is required to make a MLM legit and legal.
I AM STATING AS FACT: Very little product is actually sold in Melaleuca at full listed retail price to an outsider not affiliated (with a contractual agreement) with Melaleuca. (Anyone is invited to prove me wrong on this statement).
My question: Is Melaleuca legal and legit?
Yes or No
eminemm said:
"I AM STATING AS FACT: Very little product is actually sold in Melaleuca at full listed retail price to an outsider not affiliated (with a contractual agreement) with Melaleuca. (Anyone is invited to prove me wrong on this statement).
My question: Is Melaleuca legal and legit?"
I say who here cares?.... I don't. I got out of Amway and left them behind...until Orrin Woodward and his minions sank their claws into my wife.
Sounds like Mela-whatever isn't legit... I never heard of them before. When they affect me, I'll look into it on the mela-whatever-blog.
What is your basis that they are not retailing? Maybe you should report them to the FTC or State Attorney Generals.... maybe, you should find some meta-whatever reps and warn them of the potential harm they may be due.
We now retrurn you to your regularrly scheduled AmQuix discussion.
Roger
Roger, well I really didn't ask you, I am asking rocket. If you want to join the discussion, fine, but I wanted just a YES or NO. (You know, exactly the way you guys sometimes make pro-Q people answer questions.). I am not looking for any commentary and the point is not really Melaleuca, the point is retailing. You can even learn about them from the link Imran gave, right on this very site. Someone here is trying to make a big hoopla issue about Am/Q and retailing. I will give you a hint: yes they are legit.
Roger,
Oh by the way, it's "Attorneys General" not "Attorney Generals"
Don't feel bad, I've been getting some arrogant professor types beating up on me here whenever I misspell something.
Regarding spellings, I really don't care as far as I can understand the other person. That's it! C'mon, we are in America or England? We have the words like aint gimme no shit eh, right ;)
Answer to the Question: Retail sales are a determining factor in various FTC rulings on pyramid laws. An mlm can't get away if they don't have heavy retail going on. FTC defines it as 50% sales to ppl who are not the part of compensation plan. Amway own rules say 70%. That's how they got away in 1979. There were retails then, yes. Now? Not what I saw.
If in Melaluca, majority of purchases are from those ppl who are trying to make money, than IMO it's NOT legit.
2nd, buying is easy, selling is difficult. BUT market saturate very soon in buy for yourself model. Melaluca might be growing now. How long? Can't say.
http://tinyurl.com/6gds8
They might come under federal hammer soon.
My opinion is based on whatever limited knowledge I have. I don't know much about Melaluca. Neither their plan. But buy for yourself and teach others to do so model has some inherent flaws:
1) Bonus is little. Every one is taking share from same pie. Pump up the prices means harder to sell these things, so bonus goes more and more on top and less and less on bottom. In fact, it becomes a -ve sum game. This is considering if there is some 'redirection' going on. If ppl buy things they didn't before, it is an non-legit pyramid.
2) Product is just treated as a vehicle and focus is on 'opportunity' as real customer disappears. This opens a way to secret meeting, sharp and young ppl having big dream, etc.
Anyways. Lets see what happens to Melaluca. So far, they start their meetings showing dateline expose on Quixtar and says they’d be never like that. :)
I was never in Melaleuca.
I don't even know what products are involved.
I don't care.
Why do you?
I was in Amway. I was deceived by the tools business. I was encouraged to buy tools over product, and was advised to NOT attempt retail, as it was NOT required, and not a very efficient use of time.
I am speaking of my experiences, and how I KNOW that Amway was not run legally when I was in it, according to the FTC. Mind you, I was in Canada. Don't know if that still applied, I believe it did.
I will not speculate on Melaleuca. I will speak of what I know. So I cannot answer yes or no, simply because I don't know, and don't care.
If you think Melaleuca is perfectly legal, then fill your boots and go do it, because based on Amway practices I have seen, they don't really comply with what they're supposed to (70% rule)
Either way, I couldn't care less about Meleleuca. If I did, I'd go visit a blog about that.
Unlike some IBO's, I will not profess to be an expert on something I know nothing about.
eminemm sais:
"but I wanted just a YES or NO. (You know, exactly the way you guys sometimes make pro-Q people answer questions."
I said:
well, you apparantly missed my point but did at least get in the area. When a pro-Q person is asked for a yes or no question about Quixtar.... it is expected if they are defending them they have some Idea about them.
But asking for an opinion of mela-whatever without providing reference material or source for someone to compare it to Quixtar (when admittedly we are all here because of Quixtar (Amway) involvement) is a diversion tactic... or at the least irrelevent to the discussion.
Now, if you want to link to a source showing a court case where mela-whatever is deemed legal by the government because they follow a Quixtar plan....we'll compare it. Otherwise I'll put that discussion in the same catagory of people who asked me (when I worked at Gateway) about the reliability of Dell.... I NEVER WORKED ON A DELL AT GATEWAY! It's like going to a auto shop that only fixes Mustangs... then complaining MUstangs are crap cause all that guy does is fix them, but Camaros are great cause he's never fixed one.
BTW- thanks for the spelling update, I (personally) usually reserve correcting someone's typos for actual wrong words... maid/made for/four etc. Too easy to miss a letter in the eagered hurry of a response.
Cheers!
Roger
Dorothy, everything that you explain in your posting is 100% right on and totally accurate, everything except your remark of "I think I really started to see that the system does not work...."
I've seen many other ex-IBOs make this same exact claim, that they didn't make it in the amquix business because "the system did not work".
That is a false statement, the system DOES work, it just doesn't work for 99.99% of the people who sign up to follow it, but it does indeed WORK for those that are both extremely lucky and ruthless enough to lie and cheat other people to the extent that they are always getting the volume on the constant turnover of the IBO population.
The bottom line is, that is how the system was originally designed to operate, by always having the lower levels of the pyramid turning over in order for the potential pool of new available prospects to always remain large, hence keep the opportunity as a solid enticement for those that have "big dreams". If the percentage of that pool in relation to the entire world population ever started shrinking at a rapid rate, resulting from more and more of society signing up to be IBO distributors, then people would clearly see the "negative sum game" aspect of the business for the huge flaw that it really is, which would cause the entire mlm system of "buy from yourself, and teach others to do the same" to totally collapse - even for the diamonds & above - because the mirage of the huge available population to build your business from would have for the most part disappeared.
good grief! I am not going to beat a dead horse. I gave a premise and asked you to comment based only on the simple facts I provided. To make a point. You didn't need to know any more than that or care.
Yes rocket you were taught wrong, very wrong. If you joined some Christian sect and they told you it was required to wear a long beard and go to church every Tuesday and Sunday and you'd go to hell if you didn't, does that make Christianity as a whole, wrong? (Like you are saying Amway is illegal)
Yes or no then.
Has there been a Quixtar only diamond?
No.
Next question, why? If it's so great, there should be no problem. If the business doesn't have a great success record in the past 5 years, why?
Rocket,
You tell me then. Why in the last 5 years? I gave some possibilities earlier. Some good reasons, some not so great, some even critical of the systems. Then I asked people to add any. Nobody took the bait. Only to state the opposite, no matter what I said. Especially, LOL, the one I mentioned about negative web sites. The reaction was like, 'oh comon now, that's not valid.' But.... LOL.... there's that smug post from Jonas' dad pretty much claiming success for keeping people from joining! I have seen this claim come across on this site more than once.
Why in the last 5 years? Because it is allegedly a 2-5 year plan, that's why.
Not one single person who started in Quixtar has achieved the success level of diamond. Not one. Don't you see a problem with that? Did you get into this thinking you'd be able to achieve financial freedom? Because in the past 5 years, nobody else has gotten it done. Will you be different?
Actually, you can make negative web sites irrelevant. All you have to do is provide full disclosure, like the vast majority of the lifestyle portrayed by the diamonds is from the system that they charge you for.
Or you could tell people that this is not a job replacement, it's a job supplement by moving product.
Then everything is out in the open, and nobody is surprised or pissed off when they stumble across negative sites.
The Google bombing kinda backfired (why would such a wholesome company try to manipulate search engines?) so now you are at the mercy of whoever is showing the plan. If they're honest, no surprises, no hard feelings.
No sign ups either.
Go Diamond there big guy!
If I misread, I apologize. If you are asking me why there are no Quixtar diamonds, then I give you my opinions:
1. People know it's Amway
2. People can do their own research on the net, and figure out things that they couldn't just 10 years ago (tool money)
3. Prices are not very good value
4. The business plan is inefficient, expensive, and a hassle. It is not a better way to move product (don't forget shipping costs!)
5. It is too much hype that delivers too little results for the VAST majority of the participants
6. It is too "in your face" Nobody who is in any other kind of business has to literally live it. I would consider myself successful in my vocation, and I don't live it every day.
7. Too much pressure to conform with all others in the business. Follow the success model, if you want what I have, do what I do, blah blah blah......It's presented as your business, but once you're in, there's all these rules you have to follow in order to succeed.
8. Contacting. Most family members will not be receptive to doing this. Believe it or not, most people are not "looking" because if they were, they wouldn't need to be contacted, nor encouraged to go to the plan showing. They would show up on their own. Plus the mysterious meeting thing really annoys people.
9. Dissociation from non-business people. Segregation should tell you something is wrong. It should tell you that the leaders fear that you can be talked out of this. Why? If it is everything they say it is, then why would they be concerned about people freely exchanging ideas?
10. The leaders are leaders by title only. I would be considered a leader at my job. I WOULD NEVER EVER EVER act in the manner that these leaders do. It's borderline dictatorship, and to DEMAND to be edified, it's just sad. If the leaders were half as great as they thought they were, they would not have to coach people to cheer for them, nor idolize them.
I have several other ideas that I believe would help explain the no 5 year diamonds in the past 5 years, but I think I have answered your question.
rocket,
those reasons/excuses are as old as the hills! Most even date before 1959, and even were said during the Nutrilite era! Doesn't explain Quixtar only diamonds at all! Except for #2, which goes to prove my point, it's the negative commentary on the internet which creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's a bit like people get steered away from buying a certain car, just cause they read comments from 10 people somewhere on the net, slamming it for whatever reason, because that's what their experience happened to be!
So you don't like my ideas, that's cool. What about:
"Actually, you can make negative web sites irrelevant. All you have to do is provide full disclosure, like the vast majority of the lifestyle portrayed by the diamonds is from the system that they charge you for.
Or you could tell people that this is not a job replacement, it's a job supplement by moving product.
Then everything is out in the open, and nobody is surprised or pissed off when they stumble across negative sites."
What about that, hmmmm?
That's something in your control. The ridiculous prices and poor techniques are not, but YOU can control YOU.
Would you be willing to do that? Your upline wouldn't like it!
But everybody else would likely appreciate it.
But hey! I'm just an excuse maker, right! All the stuff that is negative is what your upline warned you about, right?
Never mind if it has merit or not. IT'S NEGATIVE!!!!
Now gimmee your money. Remember, it's an investment! You can't succeed without me!!!
Or with me, it would seem.
would be happy to work with you rocket.
For the third time, I will offer a challenge, if you do want to work with me.
I will give you a list of stuff I will be buying in the next month.
If it will ONLY cost what it would cost me anyway, I will buy from you.
Then everyone's a winner!! You get to rub it in that this IS a marketable opportunity, and collect PV at the same time!!!
Every shipment you send, you can even put on a nasty note saying, "See, I told you! We are right"
AND, I will listen to a tape a day for a month.
What do you say, big M? Ready to quote some prices?
I thought so.
Doesn't that make you think though? The fact that there is next to no market for your product unless it is to people who have signed up and are chasing the dream?
Doesn't it even make you think a little?
It should.
I'm so glad I stumbled onto this website.
I've been in Quixtar/Amway for 16 years ... along with the rest of my family (Dad, Mom, brother, sister). We were recruited under false pretenses by my mother's cousin ... who was sponsored by HER brother ... so there's a *family* connection in the upline.
NO ONE in my family has made money in this business. I was serious about it for about five years (age 20-25), until the journalist in me finally overcame the brainwashing and I saw this business for what it really is. Oh, and being GAY gave me quite a unique perspective on all the "pro-family" propaganda they force down our throats.
When I was still going to "major functions" with my family in other cities, in order to keep my sanity I used to slip away during the seminars an hour or so at a time (easy thing to do in a stadium or convention hall setting, where everyone is constantly getting up and stretching their legs) ... slip out of the convention hall, and visit the local gay bars! ;)
Anyway, my real concern is my parents. My father, an engineer, is quickly reaching retirement age (he's now 63). I understand that he has NO retirement savings whatsoever (NO penion, NO 401K ... NOTHING) ... because for the past 16 years (the most profitable earning years of his career), he's been funnelling all their discretionary income into the "system" ... because, as he's been saying for the past 16 years, "Amway is MY retirement". Unfortunately, despite his best efforts, my parents NEVER reached ANY pin level. Not for lack of trying, either. 16 years worth of opens ... monthly rallies, major functions ... house meetings ... driving for HOURS 3-4-5 times a week to "show the plan" ... yadda yadda yadda. Buying EVERY tape and book their upline recommended.
It's not the MONEY that Amway has cost them that concerns me the most (although it's considerable ... probably close to $50,000, all told, once you factor in the premium they've been paying for overpriced merchandise). It's the lost TIME, and FOCUS that Amway has cost them. My parents are smart, hardworking individuals. Dad is a nuclear engineer (he's designed nuclear power plants, bridges, and commercial buildings ... and of course, their house). Mom is a homemaker who doesn't give herself the credit for the WHIZ at bookkeeping that she really is, as well as a gifted seamstress, furniture refinisher, and crafter.
If my parents had NEVER seen Amway in the first place ... back when they were in their 40s ... Dad probably would have continued to focus on the career he's loved (but Amway has taught him to *hate*, because it's a "J-O-B"), and most likey by now he would have transitioned into a prosperous consulting business ... or even become a partner in his own firm. Mom probably would have opened her own consignment store, selling antiques and her own creations. They wouldn't have alienated their family and friends, who are now hesitant to have contact with them out of fear of being "prospected".
Anyway, you all get the idea. In addition to the stress Amway has placed on their lives and their marriage, other life events have intervened, including them moving my dad's mother in with them. And my baby brother is still in college. They put an addition onto the house to accommodate Grandma ... so they've had to refinance the house, taking out another mortgage (which my mother has told my sister is in excess of $200K).
So ... my worry is not purely financial for my parents (I'm in a financial position to intervene and help them ... even support them ... but they're too proud to ask. I'm still preparing for it, though, and as a son who loves them deeply, it would be my honor). My REAL worry is the STRESS they're under:
-- Stress on my Dad, 63 years old, to pay bills, support his mother and college-aged son, and pay off a $200K mortgage, while many of his friends are already enjoying retirement ... free from work ... living in their long-ago paid-off homes.
-- Stress on my mother, who's beginning to show signs of the strain of being a *caretaker* for 36 years and counting (four kids, her mother, her aunt, and now her mother-in-law).
-- Stress on their MARRIAGE, as their upline feeds on pitting husband against wife, when the couple fails to succeed in "the business".
-- Stress on BOTH of them, for being made to feel like "failures" by their upline for every day they're *not* Diamonds by now.
Any ideas out there how I can help remedy this situation?
I personally have had bad experiences with Quixtar and Amway meetings. My sponsor(s) for Melaleuca do not deny that it is MLM and I definitely am not a dummy to think not either... I guess there is a difference when you are NOT lied to. I hope that none of you were burned because the opportunity wasn't presented to you well. This is what me and hubby did....
First, we sat down at 1 presentation. Of course the reps at the first meeting attempted to pull us in up front, however, we took the exit route and told the reps that we had to have time to think about it. Yes, everything presented in the meeting was good, especially the points about skin condition and diseases caused by carcinogens and caustic solutions (my daughter developed Kawasaki's Disease at 2 years of age -- we had cleaned our carpets 4 times in that past year).
As in the first meeting, and the second we attended tonight, it was explained that the business is just that, a business, and that it would take work. We found some similarities with Melaleuca as with other MLM or Network Marketing programs, but I liked the fact that there was no inventory and you DON'T have to get people into it IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, so if you can find better with less risk, show it to me. We have a large family of 8, but even without that large family, I do not see us spending any LESS than $100 with just 2 people with the products that are supplied through the company.
I also look at the payoff ... the chance that my children could possibly ingest the bad stuff and something really bad could happen, GOD forbid,
OOORRRR
We can give Melaleuca a spin, say for about 35 product points a month and be safe (I think the presenter said that only 2 children reportedly experienced vomiting [and only vomiting] from ingesting the Melaleuca cleaning agents accidentally.
That is impressive. So not only am I getting a good deal, I'm getting life insurance with it as well. You feel me?
Just adding my 2 cents!
One question and only one question.
I'm not trying to find a million dollars in my bank account one morning in three years. I know scams and no matter what anyone says, i see this company as a pyramid scheme. I want to know if this business for those of you that invested so much time can indeed provide partial income.
I dont plan on throwing my every dollar away into this business. Just whatever i can take without harming myself. If there's success to this business its a lottery pick. All of the above statements prove the legitamacy of the cold hard facts.
So what im asking is in some point in 16 years, some kind of revenue appeared, or no person in their right mind would keep investing.
How hard ould it be to revenue yourself into the comma club. Low comma club.
1,000. a month. Can someone reply to me there.
To make a point clear about Melaleuca, over 80% are just customers. To join Melaleuca is not neccasary to become a business builder. In fact, most are basic customers . 32% are what are called reffering customers. Those that reffer freinds and family but don't care to do more. Only 8% try to build this as a business. So.... Melaleuca has thousands and thousands of people who purchase retail. Or rather online or through a rep. These are called direct customers. They can order what they want when they want. not monthly quota or anything. as a prefered there is only a quota of 35 points/mo. Why? Not business based, but product based. Unlike having an unlimited frontline, you only have 5 spots. 7 generations down. How do you do well in a business like this? You help others do well. And.... You sell retail. right around 80% retail.
this made me cry, dorothy. For TWENTY years, we gave it our all. and got no further than silver.
I personally STP'd and got 40 - count'em - no's in a row. And was told "just keep doing what you're doing". I saw my platinums lose their group to attrition, even while they were "giving their all". Even now, they still think it was something "they" did wrong. Their finances may never be right - they are much older than us, and don't have that many work years left.
We went to meetings week after week, and no one ever got anywhere. Oh, a new pin broke here and there, but a few months later, they were either gone, or sitting there with that "look" on their faces that everyone else had: "why am I losing if this is a winning system? what's wrong with me?"
ugh. Thank you for expressing things I haven't been able to.
Posted by: quixmire | March 16, 2005 1:17 AM