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January 20, 2005
Tools Optional?
By QBlog in
Much of the criticism directed at Quixtar focuses on the "tool business." Critics maintain that IBOs are pressured into buying unneeded (or unwanted) books, tapes and seminar tickets (tools) which finance the lavish lifestyles of Quixtar's coveted Diamonds. A large part of the Dateline NBC investigation was devoted to the controversy surrounding the Quixtar tool business. And Quixtar's response to each and every criticism of the tool business is that "tools are optional."
And indeed Quixtar's BSMAA clearly states that tools are "strictly voluntary" (pdf). Why don't we take a look at the very beginning of the BSMAA:
This agreement should be signed by each IBO who chooses to purchase independently produced Business Support Materials from, or sell such materials to, another IBO...
So, clearly the tools are optional and signing the BSMAA is optional. Right? Right? Well apparently someone forgot to tell Ron Puryear.
According to the Dream Builders Platinum Premier Membership FAQs (pdf) the BSMAA should be signed by all IBOs, not just those who choose to purchase or sell tools.
1. Will new BSMAAs need to be signed?
a. No. BSMAAs are signed by the IBO and they are an agreement between Quixtar and the IBO. All IBOs should have signed BSMAAs when they registered their Quixtar business.
Ok, maybe I'm misreading this whole thing. Help me out here. Is signing the BSMAA really optional? Are there any IBOs in good standing who have not signed the BSMAA? Or am I not understanding the FAQ? Or does the FAQ give us a glimpse into a mentality that permeates throughout the BSM organizations? You tell me.
Comments
Your comment is not true, Michael. The pdf document clearly states that the Premier Membership entitles you to DISCOUNTS on tools - the enhanced membership will allow you to have your own website. Additionally, purchasing BSM may be theoretically 'optional', but the BSMAA is NOT optional. It is an agreement to abide by the decision of an arbitrator for conflicts of the system. Signing it is part of the registration process. That is what is taught - whether they choose to get on standing order or not. Read 'Getting Started Right'. You're told to explain to them that altho they may not wish to purchase anything now, it should be on file for any 'future' decisions. The issue is, when you're being registered, you have absolutely no idea what the heck the 'system' is and all that it entails, so you just sign, because you're excited and they tell you to.
You sound like you are involved in WWG - and if so, you know darn well this is true, regardless of what your Diamond or anyone else tells you.
Disenchanted,
I AM involved 100% in WWG. I am 100% in favor of the tools business. Tools are apart of ANY business. You can't build a house without hammers, etc. How can you build a business without tools? Let me ask it this way. How can you learn to build an MLM business without investing in knowledge?
How do you teach someone brand spanking new in the business on how to retail, how to sponsor people, how to order, how to lead, etc? Yeah it may sound like "tapespeak" as you call it, but I agree 100% with it.
Let me correct one statement, Yes, BSMAA's are required, but Tools are not. I should have proof read that statement- oops my bad. I made a mistake.
Michael, I am in favour of tools as well. What I am not in favour of however is the stupidly high profits made out of such a system.
There is no reason why a tape or cd should cost as much as it does, ditto for seminars...
Why not have a tools system where the costs are completely transparent? So everyone involved in the system can see first hand where their money goes? and as more people enter the group and there is more buying power, participants would be able to see the costs coming down.... my 2c anyway :)
Mike,
I'm a technical so I know how important tools are.
However I pick tools myself, I shop around and go for the best value.
Do IBOs?
If these tools are so important and necessary to succeed in MLMs, y not other MLMs buy them from Quixtar?
Why Diamonds make more money on telling us how to make a legit i.e. product based business while they never tell they make majority of their incoem from tapes?
Bottom line is: This whole tool business is a scam. There are lawsuit underway in California, carolina and UK. Soon it will be gone.
I believe it is a criminal activity to make ppl fool by selling them seminar and tapes. .
Yep, tools are important, but last time I checked, you don't need a truck full of hammers to build a house.
All the tapes of the week I ever got in True North were almost indistinguishable because they were so similar, and were not educational, but meant to be inspirational.
If the tapes contained data on how to move (overpriced) product, they would be useful and this might be considered a real business.
As it is, they are not, and it is not.
Tools are where the money is made, not on the movement of products my friend.
Don't believe, just think.
Mike:
What percentage of your net profut is generated by tools?
100% ???????
Oh, so THAAAT'S why you are "100% in favor" of tools. Hmm..
Mike:
What percentage of your net profit is generated by tools?
100% ???????
Oh, so THAAAT'S why you are "100% in favor" of tools. Hmm..
Ok,
Note to self- More articles on how to move more Quixtar products legitimately without selling tools. This will be easy. Stay tuned to my blog- Pluck news.
I do agree with you guys that the tools business is a little high priced. Generally legitimate mlm tapes and CD's should only be around $3 to $5 retail.
Sure I've been known to shop around for my tools as well, but usually I've spent MORE money elsewhere to get any quality information from generic mlm training tapes.
Michael,
Tools is a very generous term when speaking about books, tapes, seminars and other such items and services. They are not "tools" like a surgeon's scalpel or carpenter's hammer. They are "tools" in the same way that any motivational or inspirational material is a "tool."
Maybe we should just call it what it is, motivational material. Not tools. And I'm sure YOUR group only produces highly instructional, educational and informative material but many of the groups I've seen and read about produce mostly motivational stuff with very little substance.
Lastly, true motivational material in any business should be bought and sold on the open market. This is not the case in most Quixtar organizations. An open market produces competition, lowers prices, increases quality and ensures that you get the best "tools" for your dollar. This does not happen in most Quixtar groups.
The other thing that separates the motivation and training materials that are commonplace in Quixtar versus the motivation and training in the real world is that many corporations provide motivation and training to their teams free of charge.
In fact most corporations provide PAID training to their new recruits.
I guess this is another way that Quixtar separates itself from the real world business (or should I say the real business world).
Good luck moving your overpriced product. I have a price list, as well as access to Quixtar prices on line. They are not a good alternative, nor are they competitive, and that's without even factoring in the shipping costs.
Anyone who has all the facts (ie.the prices of the products) would not see this as an excellent alternative to shopping.
Read Merchants of Deception. An Emerald not making money is not what the diamonds would have you believe. I don't get what is so complicated about understanding the obvious.
Michael -
I'm not going to pretend that any of this will change your mind, but for the sake of other readers, let's briefly (?) examine the tools.
Let's look at tapes (or CDs) first:
Quite honestly, I had no issue with the tapes that actually taught you something about how to run, manage, or promote your business. The problems, in my experience
1) WWG taught a 5:1 ratio - ONE instructional tape to FIVE motivational tapes (i.e. Rallys)
2) If you were not on 'standing order' SOT (6 tapes per month), you were not viewed as 'serious' about your business, and you were not allowed to get on & off SOT - you were either on SOT & in the 'Business Builder Group" or not on SOT and labeled a 'Prosumer'
3) You didn't get to pick which tapes you wanted to listen to - as you got what you got when your SOT came in. It didn't matter whether they were relevant to you or not.
4) The info contained within couldn't possibly be as relevant to the brand new person as it was to the veteran IBO, yet everyone received the same thing. Of course this didn't matter much with Rally, which most of them were, but it would matter with instructional tapes
5) WWG's basic premise for promoting tapes was that "Everyone gets to hear the same information at the same time, thereby duplicating the efforts of the diamonds and Ron Puryear - this one I found particularly fascinating, because no less than SIX MONTHS after a major function (leadership, FED) SOT would come out and you would have 12 consecutive tapes of something that happened SIX MONTHS AGO!! I'm sorry, this was the biggest scam, and what ultimately opened my eyes - especially after I questioned it!
I could go on, but let's keep the post within reason.
Functions:
These were promoted as the be all and end all to the business, and if you weren't in attendance, you would lose 6 months of progress with your business. What a crock. What were functions?
1) A motivational rally disguised as a learning seminar. Yeah, I'll admit that at FED & Leadership they would tell you about the new products and give you tips on how to market them. However, this part of the function took up less than 25% of the time you were there. The rest was 'how I made it big & how I'm living now' speeches, which I've since learned are full of half truths, outright lies, and misleading statements, because the profits they were living on had very little to do with their Quixtar business.
2) Another fascinating one: Functions were a place to hear from 10-12 Diamonds, and your leader, all in one place - where else could you get such valuable information in the JOB world for so little $$? In the day to day world in WWG, you were NOT allowed to crossline (discuss business with anyone outside of your immediate LOS), as they do not have a vested interest in you, so they may advise you to do something not applicable to your particular business. However - at a function (or a CD) you needed to LISTEN to these people, because they had what you should want! It didn't matter if they weren't in your immediate LOS. Does this even make sense? You can listen to them when they're receiving a profit from you doing so, but not if you just want to talk!!! Go figure.
3) If you had friends in the area of the summer "Family Reunion", you were encouraged to stay at the hotel rather than with your friends/family. In fact, to make sure you did, YOU HAD TO PAY FOR THE HOTEL WHETHER OR NOT YOU USED IT AS PART OF YOUR TICKET!!!! YOU COULD NOT PURCHASE A TICKET TO JUST THE FUNCTION, IT CAME AS A PACKAGE WITH THE HOTEL OR NOT AT ALL.
4) Mini functions - the ones each month, or additional ones during the weekdays - you paid to hear the same thing again and again and again and again. Often, there may have only been 3 or 4, maybe 5 "new" people there that have never heard the plan, or weren't yet "in", but for the most part, the same IBOs were paying WWG to hear the same thing every single time.
Again, I could go on.
CommuniKate:
Here's an interesting one - but I'll be brief. "Get the latest info at the touch of your fingertips just by dialing your phone!" I actually liked CommuniKate, except when you would get these messages from "leaders" that build them up and make them sound like they are God's gift to the business (edify?). Or especially the ones that they FORWARD of compliments they received from another IBO. And let's not forget about the political and religious messages. Again, this one opened my eyes.
Anyway Michael, therein lies my problem with the 'tools' or 'system', and why I believe the whole Quixtar thing is just a ploy to promote the LOS and make the upper enchelons rich at the expense of everyone else. I liked QBlog's explanation of tools in his post. And I could go on, but I don't want to bore the rest of the folks.
Disenchanted,
I agree with pretty much everything you are saying, except on the part about the functions. I go to all the functions including family reunion. Since nearly all of the functions are held in my area near Minneapolis, we have never had to get a hotel room or been required to get a hotel room. As to your response about Communikate- you can be requested to be taken off your upline's distribution list- or get an entirely different kate number that you can use for your personal stuff.
Qblog,
Not all of our groups produce high quality motivational stuff. Some sound like they have been read from cue cards or others notes, lol. The Korean Diamonds were extremely hard to understand, but I liked their enthusiasm.
I just want people to know that not all IBO's are brainwashed. I agree with most of you that the tools are a little pricy. But in the end, ultimately your success comes down to how much PV you accumulate. Why not focus on the PV instead of tools? If your upline is pushy about you being on tools, etc. Tell him its not in line with your goals. If I were to get off sot today, I will still get a PV check from Quixtar. Instead of focusing on what you can't do, focus on what you can do.
And that's why I like you Michael, you're a real person who can think and say real things. Yes, there's value in some motivational things, but what works for one guy may not work for the next guy. And most of the motivationals in Quixtar are worthless duplications of something IBOs have heard over and over and over and over again. The best thing to do, is what I suggested. Open the tools up to competition. Allow variety. Stop pressuring folks.
Oh, and get rid of the BSMAA.
Michael -
Didn't have to ask to be taken off anyone's distribution list. When I started asked nicely worded, intelligent questions about things I didn't understand, we were CUT OFF off CommuniKate, and we haven't heard from our upline (who loved us very much, btw) since. Not a word. No call, no Kate, no explanation. If we have a bonus, of course, we still get that via mail. But, that just reveals the true colors.
Denver - Family Reunion. Cannot get a ticket without the hotel. We even wrote our "Family head" to request a refund on that portion. No response from him. Our immediate upline was 'sent' to take care of it. The answer was 'NO REFUND'. The reason? WWG wants you to focus ONLY on your business that weekend, and the FAMILY you have through the business. The weekend is meant to get you away from any outside distractions, and just be with your spouse!!"
Curious if you will reveal who your upline diamond is?
Michael,
Education in a business is good. Alot of MLM's provide that information for free on their websites. I have been out for 3 years, but I do not think any of the kingpins have any tools posted for free.
Remember a pyramid is illegal. The Tool system is a pyramid since the downline cannot retail them to non-distributors and make profit.
It is a known fact that 75% of diamond income is derived from tools not AmQuix products...this is unbalanced and the founders tried to unsuccessfully stop it.
Of course business people need tools, but you need to evaluate just how good the tools are working/how valuable they are to you. If your business isn't growing or even shrinking, maybe the tools aren't that good?
Unfortunately AmQuix doesn't release a lot of numbers, but we do know that only 1 in 14,000 ever reach diamond. If it is even the goal of half of the people on tools to reach diamond, ask yourself, how effective are the tools? Also, the average active distributor makes less then $150/month, which would barely cover monthly tool expenses. Again, ask yourself how effective are these tools? Certainly some of the blame can be placed on individuals that do nothing, but numbers don't lie, and anyway you slice AmQuix, the IBO on the street isn't doing well. A lot of the blame has to fall on the fact that tools just aren't effective.
Last, it is a scam how much money the big pins are making on tools. The whole purpose of singing up with AmQuix is to make money with AmQuix, yet even the big pins make significantly more money off of tools then they do AmQuix. So, what is their motivation of growing their downline's businesses? The answer is, it really isn't there, because as more pins break downline, the more tool money gets distributed over the group, and the less overall income the big pins make! Do the math. Figure at worst, the big pins make 75% of their total income from tools (some estimates from lawsuits but the number closer to 85% or 90%). Spread the tool money around over more pin winners and you will see that while AmQuix profit goes up, tool profit will go down even more. It's why the tools stink. It is purposeful, because the more people who churn and burn through tools, the more money the big pins make. And the less successful the IBO's are, the more tools the big pins can push, and again, make more money. It's the proverbial carrot on a string, and it is pure and simple, a scam.
dmm wrote "Unfortunately AmQuix doesn't release a lot of numbers, but we do know that only 1 in 14,000 ever reach diamond."
Actuyally it is worse than that because it does not include people who quit. It only means 1 in 14,000 IBOs qualify at any one time for diamond. The number of IBOs run through the machine before they get to diamond is then much higher.
Disenchanted,
Who was your upline in WWG may I ask? You can email me your answer if you wish to. The reason I ask is because when I sign people up for Communikate, I have to actually call my upline Diamond to be put on his distribution list. Sometimes I have to put in a few calls to him. Like I said before, I never had to pay for a hotel room locally, unless I wanted to if the function was out of town like in chicago or milwauke. So maybe if your upline Diamond is mis-informed, we could have that corrected for you.
Scott and DMM, isn't it also true that only 90% of most businesses ever make it? If you have other figures on that I'd like to see it.
Actually, the 90% "don't make it" statistic is misleading. Take a look here, http://www.sba.gov/advo/stats/bh_sbe03.pdf (it's a pdf file so you will need Acrobat). Here's a quote from the article, "The Business Information Tracking Series (BITS) showed that about half of new employer firms survive beyond four years and the Characteristics of Business Owners (CBO) showed that about a third of closed businesses were successful at closure."
What does this mean? Well, if you own a business with at least one employee (an employer firm), then you stand at least a 50% chance of staying open more then 4 years. Also, 1/3 of all closures (16%) had profitable businesses at time of closure. There may be a lot of reasons why a profitable business closes, such as death in the family, or being bought out by a larger firm. Regardless, this means that after four years, 3/5 of all businesses were either profitable, or making enough money to stay open.
So, Michael, I suggest you do your own research on any other tapespeak claims. You may find that they are either half-truths, or in some cases, aren't true at all. Like the tapespeak factoid of how many elderly people in America are broke. You will be amazed where that statistic comes from, and just how far off it really is!
Ok,
So whats the solution? Lets say I agree with you fine people. What's my next step? Do I quit and just walk away from Quixtar with what income I have made? Sit here and blog about how "disenchanted" I am? What do I do next? I see people showing the negatives, but not offering better alternatives. I'm not saying Quixtar's the best out there. I'm just looking for positive solutions.
Here's a question, Michael. If someone is a critic pointing out the obvious negative, is there some rule that he/she is supposed to point out the positive also? For example, if you tell me you want to experience free fall and intend to jump out of a tall building and I tell you that you will kill yourself, should I sugarcoat it by telling you that for the brief moment of free fall, it might be fun?
In addition, I am an anonymous poster on a message board. You don't know me, and I don't know you. What place is it for me to tell you what the better alternatives there are? The best I can do is give you my opinion and support them with facts, such as I did in my last post. Otherwise, you should take whatever I say with a big grain of salt.
With that said, if you want to stick with Quixtar, first and foremost, drop the tapes. They are a waste. Second, if you want to read the suggested books, go to the library. Third, stop wasting money for conferences unless you really feel they are helping your bottom line. Speaking of your bottom line, put 95% of your focus on retail sales, and inform your downline to do the same. Same goes for any new downline you recruit. Last, don't spend money on "growing your business" without looking at your bottom line. Businesses exist to make money, and if your business isn't making money, you should either quit or change your activity so you make money (retail, retail and retail)! If you are interested, there are other people on this QBlog message board whom have followed this path.
Last, if Quixtar isn't the answer for you, do the research until you find something that is. Remember, there is nothing wrong with working a 40 year plan, securing money away every month for retirement. The fact is, you will probably be working less the those "retired" diamonds who spend their time re-building their business and speaking endlessly at seminars.
Michael, we go from you thinking the BSMAA is taken out of context, and your defence of it.
THEN you go to telling everyone that you are 100% in favour of the tools business.....which leads to points you can't defend.
THEN you decide you maybe aren't 100% in support of tools, because they're a little pricey.
THEN you decide to tell us that maybe retailing is the way to go. Good luck achieving financial freedom selling overpriced products by yourself. Maybe a couple bucks a month can be made, but you didn't sign up for that, now did you.
THEN we go to not thinking tools are best for everyone, and nobody should be pressured into it. But you're supposed to sign the BSMAA upon beginning "your" business, if you're serious about it.
THEN we go to you wanting a solution. "Do I quit and just walk away from Quixtar with what income I have made?" I guess my answer is how much can it be, if an emerald makes about $30,000 a year, not including system expenses.
"I see people showing the negatives, but not offering better alternatives." There's a reason for that. Almost anything is a better alternative. At least at a minimum wage job you don't lose money, and have people lying to you about how much you can make if you just do this....blah....blah.
This is not the greatest opportunity on the planet, period, period, period.
You would do yourself a lot of good by checking out anti Amway/Quixtar sites, since your prospects most certainly will. There hasn't been an increase in sales for a while with the Amway Co. in the US.
That is, if you want to sort through all the garbage that your fantastic company has been littering search engines with. Why do you suppose they'd do that?
I think some of you are cry babies!!! No one MAKES you buy the tools. The tools are used for education. As far as I see it, when I was in college, I was not forced to but the books, but I would not have done very well without them! To me it just sounds like you all do not have the top three qualities for success...#1 a good attitude, #2 A dream, #3 GOOD WORK ETHIC!!!!
For those of you who are trying to justify working 40 hours for 40 years...it is more like 50-60 hours for life. Have you been to the local grocery store? Do you see how many seniors are coming out of retirement and going back to work. It is obvious that "the government system" is not working for them.
I try to warn people like you. You guys are just creating garbage on the internet. I like to call it the bathroom walls of the internet!
About the cost of seminars...The cost of our seminars is pocket change compared to some professional seminars... Try going to a Veterinary, pharmaceutical, or medical confrence...we are talking thousands of dollars.
Thank you Michael for trying to help some of these people.
A good attitude, a positive work ethic--I believe I have those. As for a dream, well, I guess I feel that I'm living right now, since the vocation I have right now is one that I love. I feel sorry for all those folks out there who are waiting years to begin living their lives because they have a "dream" they have to follow that is purely driven by financial freedom. THe sad part is that most of those people will not earn anything even near what their "dream" requires.
Michael,
I've heard the 'gimme some better alternatives' response so many times, I did a post on it here:
http://sinkinginquixand.blogspot.com/2004/09/alternatives.html#comments
Hope this helps. And hey, 'A fellow IBO', if you ever work up to the courage to read some more of the bathroom walls, take a 'virtual dump' here:
http://sinkinginquixand.blogspot.com/2004/09/can-you-make-it-without-tools.html
"I like to call it the bathroom walls of the internet!"
Did Fellow IBO come up with this term. Yeah right, like Al Gore and the internet.
Dude is so full of tapespeak, he can't distinguish his commutes from his communication.
Michael, see who you are dealing with?!? These are your TEAMmates! If this doesn't give you a clue to get away from the brainwashed masses, I don't know what will.
What to do instead? Hmmm..how about a career in something that doesn't entail selling out yourself, your family and your family. That's a good start.
What to do, you still say? Hmmm..Michael Jordan, Bill Gates and that guy who founded Ikea all seem to have found very different, distinct ways. I suggest you find your own unique gift and pursue it.
And no...being a tapespeak zombie is not your unique gift.
Use your braincells, you have 18billion of them, surely one of them has an original idea! I know if you really sit down and think (independently) about it, you'll come up with something.
Do something you love. Follow your bliss. The money is simply a biproduct of your success. Remember, you can't take it with you--if you could, there would be a UHaul attached to every hearse you see!
Yo Mikey,
Alternatives, very good question. Yes, let’s keep the options open.
Read the biography of any entrepreneur. It all goes like this: He start business A, did ok, but faced some dead ends. Started business B, lost every thing. Started business C, apply lessons learned from Business A and B and did very good.
I learned some thing from Quixtar. My English improved and I learned public speaking. I get to read some good books. "Power of Focus", "Suck it up and step out" and "The ultimate gift" are my favorites. I also learned the truth about MLM via hard way and I can warn friends and family with facts :D Now I can apply these lessons in other business endeavors.
E.g. Now I know how to find a better MLM, if I decide to pursue this way. I know what to do and what not to do in MLM.
The best lesson I learned is to research every thing before joining it. Also I learned how important it is to do something I like in the first place.
I'm sure these will help me finding my next business. I have found one actually, but kinda stuck with time limit. Working to make it even better.
So alternative: why do you like Quixtar?
- Work from home: telecommuting jobs / projects if that's your thing. Many sites
- MLM: Find a good MLM company. Heck, learn a way to retail Quixtar products. Some products are good and have good cost / use value. Capitalize on it!
- Teaching: Find a subject you like and teach it. Tuition pays good.
- Residual income: Financial industry is quite awesome actually. Find a good Investment mentor.
Whatever you do, I wish you best of the luck. Enjoy the "Ultimate gift" and never stop learning. Think Big, Sky's the limit ;-)
Fellow IBO, please.........
You've never met most of us, therefore you are not able to judge whether or not we're cry babies.
No one MAKES you buy the tools? Name one LOS that doesn't come up with something similar to, "Tools are optional but so is success."
The tools are used for education. Fine. But once taken outside this business, those "tools" are worthless.
A good attitude should not be confused with a realistic attitude
I am living my dream in my chosen profession, and I have a very good work ethic, which helped me achieve my profession of MY choice.
It is obvious that "the government system" is not working for them because they didn't set money aside like many many people do. My pension allows me to retire at 50 with no penalty. I won't need government assistance. But I still invest and wil be just fine, like many others.
I try to warn people like you. Don't blow your hard earned money on a silly rinky dink business which is destined to fail by its design alone.
About the cost of seminars...I've been to at least 8 True North major functions...they do not focus on the movement of product. If it's motivation or a self help seminar, perhaps it should be marketed as such, and not a business "tool".
And you are right about one thing, we are talking thousands of dollars.
Good luck with that.
"bathroom walls of society"
Greg Duncan likes that phrase, too, Fellow IBO. Did you know that Duncan offered some excellent alternatives to get reliable information about the business?
You can read all about it here:
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2005/01/what-do-forbes-and-fortune-have-to-say.html
Rocket,
You can't call us brainwashed if we can't call you cry babies. If your going to resort to that behavior, then I won't be making posts here anymore. I am NOT brainwashed, I don't tapespeak as you say. I know what I know. I CHOSE Quixtar as my profession. It's not rinky dink if you do the work you are supposed to, set some reasonable goals for yourself and move forward. If you can't hack it, find something you love. Follow YOUR dreams. Quixtar never sponsored me, I sponsored Quixtar. I'm tired of this issue. I have read all of the anti-quixtar sites, all I hear is alot of people whining.I am no longer going to post here. Qblog, keep doing what you do best, I wish you all the success. I do love the blogging 101 articles and I will follow those. Peace.
Mikey:
Rocket didn't use the pharase, 'brainwashed', that was ME. Get it right! And I really don't care if you consider the anti-Q folks 'crybabies'.
I know I am right in my assesments and statements (see below); more importantly, YOU know that I am right too!
You can run from these truths (again, see below), but it will all catch up with you in the end. If you quit posting here, no one is going to call you a 'quitter' or a 'broke loser'. We'll probably all sigh that another lamb is off to the slaughter...
I hope that, eventually, you come out of this ordeal with a true vision of what your purpose in life is. Find you bliss and follow it.
DF,
Now I'm "running" from the "truth"? Thats the usual response I get from anti Q people. Look who's talking about being 'brainwashed' now. Your truth is far different than my truth. You know what my true vision is? My true vision is to help people make money- pure and simple, in whatever path they choose, not just quixtar. I don't know if you read my blog pluck news, but I do help people try and understand other vehicles as well. Look DF, you may be right for some people, I may be right fo rother people, why not let THEM decide? DF I am not running like you say I am, this discussion could go on and on. Let's just agree to disagree. NOW, this is my last and final post.
Imran,
I enjoy reading your opinions here and on other Quixtar blogs I've come across. I appreciate the fact that you use logic to educate, rather than strike down people in the business.
Because you've given the business a fighting chance, and can come out of it with a positive attitude, feeling that you learned something rather than lost everything, I can respect your opinion more than others. I am finding that the business seems to have more personal/social benefits than financial ones, but those are still important.
I am currently working with an emphasis on selling the products, and keeping that emphasis when I show the plan. There are opportunities to make money in Quixtar, if you look ahead with clear vision.
The fact that you are still inspiring people to be successful and follow what they feel is right speaks loads about your character. Your input is appreciated, and I wish you all the best in reaching for that sky. ;)
If anyone is interested in reading my full scope analysis, go here: http://tim.2wgroup.com/blog/archives/000792.html
"We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give."
~Winston Churchill
Rocket,
When you say the tools are useless outside of this business....are you implying that tools used in other business is still usefull? How about college tools? I don't know about you, but I have not opened any of my college "tools." I also have a lot of "tools" from my old prefession....they are useless too.
I would like to wish you luck with your pension and your other investments. I am sure Enron employees had the same investments too before they lost everything.
About your "rinky dink" comment, do you really think all the the companies like Disney, Circut City, MCI, Shucks, and many more would risk their reputation and be a part of something that is "rinky dink?" I DON'T THINK SO!
I don't remember anyone ever marketing a function as learning how to move product. Dream Night, Spring Leadership, Family Reunion, and Free Enterprise Day don't exactly sound like seminars that are going to teach you how to "Move producct." They are in place to give motivation and leadership.
And for all of you who say we all speak the same, This is a private franchise. Yes it is your own business, but it follows a model so you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Do you think a McDonald's owner decides to make a new cheesburger? No, he too is envolved in a franchise. Are you going to tell McDonald's owners that they are "brainwashed" too?
A fellow IBO says:
do you really think all the the companies like Disney, Circut City, MCI, Shucks, and many more would risk their reputation and be a part of something that is "rinky dink?" I DON'T THINK SO!
Do you really think that these companies care who moves product for them? Quixtar is just another online vehicle for getting their products to the end user. I could sell their stuff online if I wanted. So could you, and you wouldn't have to be in Quixtar to do it.
Your McDonalds analogy is a bit flawed too by the way. The McDonalds owner is in the business to sell hamburgers, not duplicate another franchise. If McDonalds followed the Quixtar model, there'd be one on every corner. How many of the McDonalds owners would be happy about that? Let alone succesful?
Feeling Disenfranchised?
Fellow IBO...again.....
I do use the materials I bought in school in my job today. And a carpenter can still use a hammer after he decides to do something else for a living.
I appreciate your concern for my pension, but I'm quite certain my employer will remain solvent, since it's the Canadian government. My investments too, natch, will be there long after your latest CD by Dexter telling people he's Jesus is scratched too badly to listen to anymore. As a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of people who save and invest in pensions and other financial products are really OK, despite what your upline says. Who in your upline is a financial planner, by the way. Oh, if they're rich (even by deception) they qualify, right? So you'd take financial advice from a wealthy athlete too, like Tiger Woods? He's likely wealthier than your upline. At least Tiget Woods would be up front about where he got his money from, your upline wouldn't.
Enron, incidentally would be a lot less laughable of an investment, even at this stage of the game. Better than a bunch of motivational jibberish that you get coerced into buying. Well thought out though...
If your seminars are geared towards motivation and leadership, then perhaps they should be marketed as such, and not as business functions.
Looks like I was a little slow to rebut your little "McDonald's is a franchise the same way as Amway" argument. I bet Ray Kroc wants to roll over in his grave every time his business is compared to Amway/Quixtar. Not too many McDonald's employee's hiding behind plants in the mall looking for franchisors. Dream on Fellow IBO......
Michael, sorry that you got verbally trounced so soundly that you don't want to post here anymore, I wish you were able to look at reality when its presented, because you sound like a decent guy. Good luck to you.
By the way,
If Coke puts a drink machine beside a Greyhound terminal, does that make them partners with Greyhound? Doubtful at best, my friend.
Don't just accept at face value what people tell you, just because they're upline.Think for yourself.
Rocket,
You obviously have had a bad experience with Quixtar and your upline. Not all people are created equally. World Wide does not teach to hide in the bushes at the mall. As a matter of fact, they teach to listen for a need want or a desire for a change.
It is unfortunate that you feel the way you do. It is quite obvious that nothing I say can change your views of World Wide. If you feel the way you do, why do you waste your time here? It sounds like you think you have everyting figured out...
If it matters to you, I have had nothing but positive experiences with World Wide and I think many others would agree. They just don't waste their time at this web site. I was directed here by a person who was looking at the business. This web site created many questions for them. Needless to say, we answered all of their misdirected information.
Ah my friend, I noticed you did not attempt to refute the irrefuttable. Good for you.
I had a bad experience with True North, but I heard tapes from all other organizations. I'm sure your World Wide is the best.
Why do you consider it wasting time? I'm the loser that's going to be laying on my death bed wishing I'd tried to sponsor people into Amway, you on the other hand are at the healm of a huge multinational conglomerate of which you are at the helm. I would suggest that you should be out at the mall jumping out from behind the plastic palm trees saving people from the paradigm we're all trapped in.
I'm just having a good time here. It's fun. It's like a function for quitters that's twice as fun, and not nearly as expensive. Plus QBlog doesn't go around wanting us to worship him and junk like that.
What concerns did your prospect bring up because of this site, and what information was wrong that he/she saw?
I'm sure you were able to cleanse that person's mind.
Well thats true :) Criticizing Quixtar IS fun, there are so many things IBOs say, broke loser, 95% business failure, slave for the rest of our life. Where would I get to have so much fun :)
So welcome to the blogging era. Where ppl like me criticize Quixtar just for the kicks :D And we love it.
Don't get me wrong, I show respect to every IBO who don't call me a broke loser and I try my best ot help them. But if some one says "Stay broke for the rest of your life and go kiss your boss" what does that show us?
Imran,
I never think Anti Quixtar people as broke losers. Name calling is a cop out. I think anti quixtar people are also brilliant business owners who chose not to do quixtar. Thats ok. I just wish anti quixtar people would STOP using the term 'brainwashed'. Thats just being hypocritical. If you have a TV in your house that you watch on a daily basis, you are being brainwashed.
I'll respect other people's views if they are valid, but i'll never resort to name calling.
Michael, thats exactly y I like you and your blog :) Unfortunately, as you can see the comments below, you are quite rare IBO.....
If you have read a post on this blog
http://tinyurl.com/6vdat
That says it all :)
Regarding my TV brainwashing: I seriously like news caster chicks.....
Michael -
WWG upline who would not allow us to purchase JUST a ticket for 2003 Family Reunion (and would not refund the money for the hotel portion of it) was Felber. Our request went to him (as did our $$ for the ticket & hotel package) - but the response was sent downline thru the Diamond, then ulitimately thru the Emerald who contacted us, and told us that we would not be refunded.
Michael, I hope you keep commenting here. You are not the brainwashed IBO us cons refer to when mentioning the term brainwahsed. A Fellow IBO, however, does typify a brainwashed IBO. Why? Because there is nothing AFIBO has written that hasn't been written one hundred times before. His comments are exactly what we expect from an IBO, and his arguments are weak, tired, and at best, half baked. You, Michael, on the other hand, have shown a willingness to think openinly, and come up with cogent arguments and support for your positions.
With that said, I hope both you and AFIBO remember why a business exists. It is not to make friends or help you with certain skills, but the bottom line is making money. So, is your business making money? If yes, how can you grow your business? If not, why isn't it, and is there a way to get yourself out of the red?
With Quixtar, the best way to make money is move product. And contrary to what a lot of systems say, the best way isn't growing a downline, but to sell to members/clients. Besides, you MUST sell to members/clients in order to remain legal. Otherwise, you are running an illegal product pyramid scheme where guaranteed that either you are losing money, or you are making money only because you have a much larger downline collectively losing money.
Last but not least, AFIBO, have you ever asked seniors working at the local grocery store why they work? Some may need the extra cash, but many do so because they have been working their entire adult lives and simply do not feel productive if they live the typical retired lifestyle. They feel they still have something to add, and would rather spend time bagging your groceries then sitting playing bingo or on the golf course. Again, not every senior falls into this category, but many do.
I think if we IBO's did half as much selling as we did talking or defending the business, it would solve many of the problems we find we have to explain away.
I don't understand why there isn't more emphasis put on moving products in the business. As soon as people understand that they need to sell, they will be just as motivated to form downlines, because they will understand how they can benefit from them. Of course, I would also worry that uplines would put unfair pressure on their downlines to be successful.
I am really lucky to have an amazing, supportive upline. This person alone has made this a worthwile experience for me. Other than that aspect, I am currently doing a lot of searching to find the truth. I feel like I'm in the middle of a war of words.
I do not appreciate the idea of being preached to about how you're saving someone when you sponsor them. I think it makes this business much easier for some to swallow. They can't mentally bring themselves to potentially put another person in financial risk, but as long as they believe, and truly make themself believe that they are doing this person a favor, there is no moral doubt. Call it ethical sugar coating. Much easier to swallow what you're doing when you justifying it in such a way. Much easier to fail at it when you tell yourself that it's their loss they're not getting in, not yours. These are good mental tricks, but not honest ones.
Hello, why don't we let the person decide for themself whether or not this is the answer to their prayers. Wouldn't that do them more good than potentially convincing them to do something they might not benefit from?
Or maybe enough people just can't think for themselves.
Don't let "The Dream" get in the way of the dream.
I'm looking for a balance in making this business work (making profit, sponsoring people honestly, and making your upline happy). If I find it, I'll let you all know. Until then, feedback is welcome!
In the Middle:
I appreciate your honesty here.
I too, was in your spot. I wanted to present the opportunity, and let folks decide for themselves. The problems I encountered were numerous. With regards to uplines - I was embarrassed by many of the things my upline (Platinum & Diamond alike) said in meetings, on Kate, and in 'counsel' to either new IBOs or prospects. This was especially true when they didn't practice what they preached. Maybe your upline is different. I hope so.
But it wasn't just the upline. I couldn't justify much of the pricing of the products. I HAD the $$ to spend $750 per month to hit 300PV as WWG taught. But many ppl don't. Many don't even have the $250 for 100PV. And that's if they LIKE the products. Some were better, some were comparable, and some were substandard. I had a hard time asking ppl to spend 2-3x as much for a measly 3% bonus check. I didn't agree with the product police that would check out your house during an upline visit to see if you were using your own products. I didn't agree with the pressure to buy tools and attend functions, regardless of other events in your life or your $$ situation. I didn't agree with the 'positive only' attitude - I believe it is unhealthy & can even be psychologically destructive to always suppress doubts, questions, and anger, and 'pretend you're happy, even if you're not'. And I didn't agree with the political and religious rhetoric that too often went along with the business.
I didn't mind presenting the option to shop for needs/wants on line through Quixtar, but I didn't want to promote WWG. And in our group, you couldn't just shop online, you HAD to go through your upline for orders. It was very inconvenient. If the AMOs weren't a part of the business, it may have been different. But the AMOs ARE the business, and Quixtar is incidental.
This isn't simply an opinion. Many ppl have experienced the same situations. Which is why the turnover is so great.
However, I sincerely wish you well in your endeavor!
Good Luck In The Middle.
And I do mean that sincerely, it sounds like you think for yourself.
Have you always felt this way, or did you decide this would be your approach after the hyped sign up? If so, what changed your outlook from wanting to be rich to just trying to get what you could out of this?
Again, I do hope you accomplish your goals, because your approach will not hurt others.
Rocket and Disenchanted IBO,
I appreciate your comments! As far as my upline goes, they are some of most supportive, understanding people I've met. My upline sponsor has never encouraged me to suppress doubts or fears, but rather encouraged me to express whatever I need to for the best success. I've been reassured that, If I choose to drop out, it will in no way change our friendship, which was also encouraging to hear. This is someone that would not just say that.
Luckily we're switching so all purchases will be done online, and none through uplines. Our group is doing some really cool activities to get our retail volume up, and again I've never been pressured into buying more for personal use than I needed. All in all, the only money I spend on the business is in tools (which I'm still undecided whether or not I want to continue) and functions. I buy some products for personal use, but that is because I am satisfied with them and can't find their quality anywhere else.
As far as retailing, it is difficult to justify many prices, but luckily I am a bargain hunter who grew up in a rich neighborhood, so it's easy to appeal to both sides.
I've always just wanted an opportunity to grow to what I felt my potential was, but I could never do so in a corrupt way. I jumped on the opportunity without a second thought, but it's my nature to constantly rethink things, and I can't put all of myself into something until I fully understand it. I believe it is possible to make this business profitable. I am unsure of how much corruption that involves, and how it can be done in everyone's best interests. I am determined to find an answer, or at least enough of one to justify the original excitement I felt.
I am searching for something that must find me, I guess. That and trying to take life a lot less seriously. Maybe we all just need to drop our arguments and laugh at ourselves.
I appreciate all the encouragement! It's good to know that actions can still be judged by intentions.
please help me since i cannot do the business carefully.please give me some tips by whcih i can do the business very enthusiacstically.
please help me out.
Hey there
I'm a fairly new IBO in NS, Canada - part of true north - we've actually been in the business for about a year now but haven't done much with it, it's been on the back burner because of other problems and such. However, to us, quixtar was the best opportunity in all the MLM and home businesses that we've seen over the years. The only thing was that we didn't enjoy the seminars nor the tapes - however we bought some that we liked on ebay..:P - anyways....to us...building the business was getting people to think like us - to buy their 100pv...then sell some stuff if they wanted - but most imp. build their business - get all those people buying their own 100pv and getting them to buy it. Isn't THAT what the business is all about? All these people keep making abig fuss over the people who make u buy tapes - make u go to the seminars - and who are making money off the system - but nevermind them - that's what i say - Just build your business - it works - the numbers don't lie - u just gotta build it with teachable people. no?
Someone let me know what they think please!
Qblog,
Yes Bsmaa's ARE signed automatically when you become an Ibo. If you read the application, it states that BSMAA's are NOT required to participate in Quixtar. I think you are taking it out of context there a little bit. The question is focused upon the platinum premeir membership. Of course you don't have to sign up for the premier membership site unless you want your own website to retail products. I myself don't understand why that particular question is in the FAQ's, but I can tell you that I will send a voicemail to my upline Diamond about this question.
Posted by: Michael | January 20, 2005 12:22 PM