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January 23, 2005
Monday Reader Mail: 29
By QBlog in Reader Mail
I could probably title this week's Reader Mail "LOSER" because it poses a very good question. The real question behind Brian's question is why do so many IBOs feel the need to denigrate those who aren't in "the business" or making millions of dollars? Does an IBO feel better about his business if he puts down others? Quixtar may be a great business opportunity but it's not for everyone and people who choose not to participate certainly aren't losers. Oh well, here's the email.
name: Brian
date: January 19, 2005
message: Thought I would pass along a question I have asked that I have never recieved a valid answer from Amway/Quixtar/other MLM when they espouse the belief that JOBs are for losers. I always ask them if they believe that police officers, prison guards, EMTs and firefighters are losers as well? And if so, then why would they ask for their help since association with them is damaging to their business.
Never have gotten a answer that made any kind of sense.
Thanks, and great blog.
What is a loser? Is a loser someone who doesn't earn a particular income? Is a loser someone who doesn't wear certain clothes or drive a fancy car? Or is a loser someone who feels so insecure in himself that he resorts to belittling others, especially those who don't agree with him, so that he can feel superior and thus artificially bolster his self-esteem?
Comments
I think losers are those individuals who resort to name calling. I cannot argue with Michael at all regarding this.
However, I will say this: If you call me a broke loser, I'm going to think you're brainwashed. After all, you opened the door. :P (Aw comeon, smile or something!)
Peace.
After two attempts at Amway, my wife decided to join Quixtar... (after we had known what they were and were against it) when convinced by (then Team of Destiny) "the Team" of Orrin Woodward that their "stacking" would make all the difference.
Yeah, so what, there are 20 people "stacked below" my wife, and she still doesn't do as much PV/BV from them all combined as she buys herself... so she can spend $300-800 a month to make her upline happy. Meanwhile she does ALL the meetings, reads the books about self-improvement (which may make you a "better motivated person" but don't do anything to make you a better retailer, seller, or mover of overpriced unwanted product), stacks lots of vitamins and supplements that she never took before (not replacing previous purchases) and creating some way to make her PV in addition to the cases of stuff stacked in the living room that a year from now will still not be used.
Brainwashed indeed.
I think its a very simple "us vs. them" persuasion technique.
"We" (IBOs) are the "elite", "we" are going to save Democracy through free enterprise, "we" will eventually win.
"They" (the non-IBOs) are trapped, "they" will not experience "our" ultimate freedom, "they" are thus failures.
"As long as you keep coming to meetings and buying tapes, John and Jane Doe, you're one of us. Isn't that Great?"
Nothing more, and nothing less...
Mike
"Brainwashed" is not a derogatory name. It is a conclusion, based on a set of observed symptoms.
"Loser" is name used to denigrate someone.
If I was going to berate someone, I might say "Hey, loser." I can't see that I would say "Hey, brainwashed."
It doesn't sound right, and no one uses it in that sort of context.
Another way I can tell the difference is that I will readily admit that I was brainwashed while I was in the business. I am not and never was a loser.
PW
Guys, I just wish you'd get over this victim mentality here. The only people who have control over you or your savings account is YOU. Every business owner knows that the only way to become wealthy is not how much you invest in your business, but how much is in your savings account at the end of it. I have been studying a term that multi millionaires and financial planners use on a daily basis- it's called "compound interest" I'll be writing more articles in the following weeks on this. I don't care if you do Quixtar or you have a minimum wage job. Either way works. I had a long talk with a financial planner about this today so I know what I'm talking about. You can't blame other people or other companies for your financial insecurity anymore. If you think this is all "sheepspeak" or "tapespeak" thats your problem. My goal in life is to help people make more money, in whatever they do. Peace.
Rich DeVos spoke about the "losers" on his directly speaking II tape. It is too bad IBOs don't listen to this tape. It is good.
http://www.amquix.info/sounds/rd_losers.mp3
Here is the complete tape in .mp3. It is about 6.4 megs.
http://www.amquix.info/sounds/Rich_DeVos-Directly_speaking_II.mp3
It's not a victim mentality, it's just a point of view known from experience.
Do you ever tell people when you STP that they should try to make it to a certain level so they can partake in the tools profits? No? Why not? That's where the money is.
You have no idea how this works when you get started. So you do as you are told, because these diamonds have $$ by being involved in the system. Question nothing. If you want what they have, do as they have done.
It's all a lie. The money is not in moving product.
For someone who is all for helping people, you should be trying to tell them not to buy useless motivation, unless it demonstrates how to move product profitably. A tall order, I know.
I don't consider myself a victim, I consider myself wiser. And if it helps one person, good. If it doesn't, it's still fun to hang out here.
I'm glad you think though, Michael, and don't just sit there quoting tapes. That is in fact where the sheep, tapespeak...etc.. come from.
The Quixtar business is a lie. The lifestyles are NOT created by products. It really is that simple.
I hope you tell people this when you show them the Profiles of Success, even if you shouldn't be using that as a sponsoring tool.
Come to think of it, why would you buy a Profiles of Success if you can't use it to sponsor? Who the hell would want that as a coffee table book?
I can understand Brian's anger or resentment, if someone were to call him a loser for not wanting to become an IBO. However, I have never heard any IBO's call anyone a loser for not wanting to become an IBO. I understand there might be such people, but it is never an acceptable term for anyone, just because they don't see the need to become an IBO.
As far as what I consider the definition of a loser to be, I would say someone who has lost his/her dream or goals in life and simply settles for whatever happens to them. When they are no longer able to do anything about it, they tend to blame others for their lack of ambition and courage. This is truly a loser. No, you don't have to be an IBO to be successful in life, but there are many benefits to being an IBO, that go beyond money. Many lasting friendships have been created among IBO's, that probably never would have happened if they had not become IBO's. IBO's aren't perfect, because they are people, just like anyone, but they do try to focus on the postive, instead of the negative, which I find a much better way to live in this world. Most of the world around us bombards us with so much negative, that it is such a breath of fresh air to be around people who prefer to look at life in more positive terms. I think many people, on here and other places, would do well to try to see life in more positive terms, rather than focussing on how to be critical of others and complain about their circumstances. Rather than criticize and complain, why not go out and do something positive and uplifting for others?
Greg, good comments, and the part about being happy without being in Amway, perfect.
If there are benefits to being an IBO that go beyond money, then is that talked about when the plan is being shown? Not any that I've been to. The focus is on a way to create an income, and never would they say that this will become a way of life, because that would turn people off.
IBO's do in fact focus on the positive, but I believe that's because they're not allowed to be negative. Negative can be healthy too, in any business, that's part of growing, not pretending everything is great to everyone. A positive part of negativity is that often, people can help you overcome whatever the problem is. Unless its your upline, it is forbidden to seek advice. Not Good.
I think as well, a lot of people would consider this blog positive and uplifting for others?
you are right in one regard, I have never heard anyone called a loser directly except by the "pro-q" people on the internet.... but I was very much told by our upline in reference to anyone not in or unwilling to get in were losers.... among other derogatory terms. They didn't tell the losers they were thought of as losers, they told us they thought the losers were losers.
Roger
rocket,
Negative can be good??
That's a bunch of B as in B and S as in S.
True, negativity happens. But I don't think you like being negative, unless you happen to be osama bin laden or Saddam Hussein.
I actually do bring a profiles of success with me to a second look meeting so I can give prospects a backround on the speaker.
Mike,
Negative experiences make you stronger, and help you grow. Rinky Dink Amway/Quixtar teaches you to walk around with a plastic smile, even if your world is coming apart.
Did I say I like being negative? Nope. I sure didn't. I said negative is healthy, and it is, because it deveops character, just as your diamonds say that it's good when someone saysd "No" because it's part of doing what it takes.
Check your rules of conduct. I'm quite certain you are not to be using the Profiles to demonstrate income representations. Do you know why that is? Because the money is not made from moving Amway products.
I'll ask again, do you tell people when you are showing the Profiles of Success that the lifestyle in that book is created from the tapes, CD's, books, and seminars?
If you don't, you are no better than the people who are at the root of this perpetual fraud.
Mike, go here:
http://www.amquix.info/probst/systemii.htm
You're not to be using it when STP'n.
I guess you might want to research some things your upline says, instead of going on faith.
I'm not a threat to your family's future, my friend. But your business associates just may be.
PW said it best below. Kudos to P-dub.
And I'll keep calling the Amsheep "brainwashed" . I think its true. I am just calling a spade, a spade.
Keep on baaahing Michael, I only think you are a "loser" only in a NET REVENUE sort of manner.
I hope that makes you feel better. Smooches.
Greg:
Good comment, but gotta tell ya, this positive and negative debate about IBO is real funny!
Are IBOs positive? I beg to differ. They are positive about THEIR business, and they are obviously that way to attract other ppl and keep the team motivated. That’s ALL! They are, as you said just ppl. Like I'm positive about my career. they are positive about their business. There isn't any thing heavenly about that.
Negative: Some ppl criticize Quixtar. In every open JOB, Traditional Businesses, investment etc. are put down. And private franchising is presented as the only way possible. Aren't these all opens being negative?
Further you go: An IBO is ‘counseled’ to disassociate from negative friends and family.
Now some body please tell me, what is positive and Negative? Positive about a particular business and negative about every thing else is NOT positive.
Also,
Gerg>> Rather than criticize and complain, why not go out and do something positive and uplifting for others?
Imran>> Are we complaining? How do you know we are not doing something positive with our life? Just because we happen to point some issues with Quixtar, we are 'complaining' and 'not uplifting others'
Dude, that’s negative. And that's tape speak.
Why do we 'complain' about Quixtar? Let me tell you a secret: Quixtar is just another topic for discussion and we discuss it. That’s all. What is wrong about discussing anything? We express our opinions. We can right? Free enterprise, Freedom of speech, sounds familiar?
Think about it. We are just discussing. You and other IBOs come here by yourself or Qblog prospected you in the mall and wasted your 2 hours by showing you this site? We are just commenting on our favourite blog. That's all! What if we were discussing football? Would you hold any opinion, if at all about us?
"My goal in life is to help people make more money, in whatever they do."
-Michael
WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!
Then can I have your profits? That will help me make more mooolah. You don't need more money, because more money is not your goal in life.
Yet you hang around boat shows?? What?
Mike, I bet your wool would make for one hell of a sweater!
Michael? Yoo Hoo?
Geez, I think we've sewered 3 people in a 3 or 4 day span.
Micheal, A Fellow IBO, Mary Carlson, and car 54.........
Where are you?
Imran,
I agreen that Quixtar is just another subject (and it may be for you) but for some of us critics it goes beyond that. After watching the conversations over the last few days I did a post about it. I could be off base, but it's what I've concluded about the concept that the critics are out to belittle and bully the IBOs. Check it out.
http://sinkinginquixand.blogspot.com/2005/01/quixtarits-amazing.html#comments
I almost agree to that post, BUT ppl do speak about it! Ever tried prospecting? That ‘speech’ is not organized though. Why?
- Ppl do not speak about it many of them never know. And I'd venture to say, many like their sponsors. I still like mine! So how can one blame the friendly ppl they like unless they do some research? And what's the point of research when a person quits? Ones who do hardly join!
- There can be many theories why not as many ppl speak up, but thanks to bloging phenomenon, ppl are.
- How do we know people are not speaking? Ever tried to sponsor? You'll get an ear full by just mentioning the "A" word.
It's just getting a media. And along came internet :D One of the topics that generate most dialogue is Quixtar on the internet!!! If that tells you some thing. Some IBOs and Kingpins are quite frustrated about it, but welcome to the information age :D
PS: I'm not out there to bully any one. I am just voicing my opinion and sharing my experiences. Open info / discussion on Quixtar can only help people, I believe. For that matter on any topic. Relegion to politics.
If any one who don't like it: Hide in the bushes and watch. We are spreading information. That's it, period (ala Bill Britt style)
I agree. I'm not out to bully anyone either. I think that it becomes a misconception on the part of the IBO that they are being bullied due to the fact that we, as critics can be quick to jump on the easily recognizable rhetoric we've come to know and love.
Great insight though, Imran.
I don't think it can really be considered "bullying" I'm not really out to force someone to quit. I think that more psychological bullying goes on from certain uplines to IBO's, with the intent to keep them in, avoid finding out the truth etc...
In fact, I would go so far to say that by telling someone you won't help them in the business unless they are plugged in, is bullying to a degree.
Imran, you are very astute when you speak of why some people speak of this topic. I too, am still friends with my sponsor, and if you think I have an attitude about Amway/Quixtar, geez, they won't even look on the internet because they were so pissed when they found out the truth.
Jason's post was a great read, and I encourage everyone to check it out. Maybe someday I'll be smart enough to Blog.>
DF,
Why do you think whatever I say is a load of crap? Do you have that low of self esteem? You have the mentality of- Well, this business doesn't work for me so I know it's not going to work for you. Thats hogwash. Why don't you get to know someone first before you make assumptions about them? You may know about "the business" but you don't know anything about the individual. Do you know why I like to hang out at the boat show? TO LEARN. I met 5 professional musky fisherman just from walking around the boatshow. I gained more knowledge on fishing. One of those Pro guys was actually a 17 year old girl that alot of guys fear on the water- by the time she was 14 she had over 150 muskys under her belt. Thats more than alot of 40 somethings get. Her name was Lucky Libby. Oh, and she holds 15 world record fish too. Don't be judging people DF.
For a variety of complicated reasons, some people don't see the obvious until it's too late. And the funny thing about seeing the obvious when it's too late is that it is very embarrasing. Of course, this is a well-developed, professional con game, and encouraging people to blame themselves is a big part of the con. So add in the "loser" mentality drilled into the skulls of IBOs who were unlucky enough to get pulled into "the system" and you have a pretty good explanation why it takes a bit of time before people start coming forward with their experiences.
I literally know hundreds of former IBOs. With few exceptions, they are embarrassed about what happened to them . In fact, I regularly run in to the castoffs from my father in law's downline (he's a sapphire - after 12 years of being _very_ CORE). They are often still friends to me and my wife (as they were before they got into "the business"), but they are usually very uncomfortable talking about "the business."
Just lask at the grocery store week we ran into the parents of one of my wife's best friends from childhood. Through that relationship, my father in law recruited my wife's friend's parents into "the business" for about a year or so. After some small talk, they asked if my wife's father is still working his "business." We told them he is. They then asked how we manage to stay out, being around his level of "excitement" all these years. Based on the tone of the question, this is meant sarcastically as a comment on his socially unacceptable treatment of family and friends as possible marks. I answered that we "regularly have to remind him that the business isn't for us." They caught my joke and replied that it wasn't for them either. We exchanged a knowing look. There was a moment of silence and then we moved on to other topics.
Such is life with a "fired up" IBO in the family.
Ain't it great!?
DF knows what we all know, this business won't work for anybody, the way its marketed. Just an opinion.
Yep, I'm sure you went to the boat show with the intent to meet a fisherman, or fisherwoman, as the case may be.
You went there to prospect.
But whatever helps you sleep at night, my friend.
Want to know a funny thing about the term "positive?" It wouldn't exist if there wasn't a negative!
Yin and yang, good and evil, and positive and negative are all part of the world's balance. Without one, there simply cannot be the other. So, for all of you who think we should all just be positive, remember, you need us negative people.
Of course, I think I'm not being negative when I talk badly about Quixtar. I believe I'm just stating my opinion after evaluating the entire situation. In fact, there is some good in Quixtar, such as some excellent quality products. Of course, I don't feel they are worth the cost when compared to other products on the market, but that's not being negative. It's just being honest.
Last, Quixtar should be first and foremost a business. And businesses exist to make money, and make money only. If you are getting a lot of positives like friendship and motivation from Quixtar, but are losing money, you should quit the business. If your Quixtar friends still aren't friends after you quit, then they never were really friends in the first place. And if you still need taped motivation, there are plenty of other motivational speakers out there that are not affiliated with Quixtar, such as Tony Robbins.
Michael:
I hate to have to point this out to you, but you are contradicting yourself. Today you write:
"Do you know why I like to hang out at the boat show? TO LEARN. I met 5 professional musky fisherman just from walking around the boatshow. I gained more knowledge on fishing."
But before you went to the boat show, you wrote:
"Meanwhile, I am off to the Minneapolis Boat show today to go dream and prospect peeps!"
You went there to prospect people trying to enjoy a boatshow. After everyone turned you down, I know it must be comforting to tell yourself that you learned a little bit about fishing. But you ALREADY told us the reason you went.
Let me suggest that sometimes it's easier to fool yourself then it is to fool others.
But that doesn't make for much of a discourse. Does it?
Darn, LawDawg beat me to the point.
Michael, your credibility is sinking faster than your savings account!
Mikey, your estemm so low that you have to lie to yourself and everyone here???
hey.... where's Chris at during all this debate with pro-Q Michael????
Prospecting at a boat show.... I'm next to Detroit.... and I think I would laugh and publicly humiliate anyone prospecting me at the auto-show or any event at Cobo Hall.
Do you prospect just anyone there? Or just the people who look like they can already buy a boat? Or those that can't but dream of owning one so you use that as bait in a mini dream session to get them to come to a meeting where you'll explain how their dreams can be made true?
Wait guys. It gets better.
The Minneapolis Boat Show charges admission.
http://www.minneapolisboatshow.com/details/
Nine bucks for adults. So what is Michael doing? He buys a ticket so he can harrass people who PAID to get into the show to see the boats. How would you feel, Michael, if you took your kids to a movie at the theatre and I sat behind you telling you about the virtues Kirby vacuum cleaners or $cientology?
If you prospected people at a boat show, you were rude, behaved inappropriately, and, as someone else pointed out, your action were pathetic.
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2004/10/desperation-and-socially-acceptable.html
Guys,
I guess whatever I have to say DOESN'T really matter in here.
Sure it matters. You prospected people at a boat show who paid to go see boats and instead paid nine bucks to hear about Amway.
How do we know that? Because you "said it in here."
See.
It matters. We're paying attention.
Mikey:
That's the most sense you've made so far.
When your thoughts are full of misleading stats and/or downright lies, then your comments don't matter here.
The truth matters here. Speak the truth or seek the truth -- or just geeeet ouuuut.
Lawdawg,
Talk about putting someone else down to make themselves feel better. I think you and rocket wrote the book on low self esteem.
Sorry, Michael, but I call a spade a "spade." Prospecting people at a boat show they paid to get in to is extremely rude and inconsiderate. If you don't like being called on this kind of socially unacceptable behavior, don't do it anymore.
The choice is yours.
lawdawg
I don't have to answer to you when it comes to running my business. If you think its rude and inconsiderate, thats your problem, not mine. Telling someone they are rude and inconsiderate without knowing a person says ALOT about your character and low self esteem. They only person you are hurting with comments like those is yourself. It doesn't bother me any.
I don't care whether it bothers you or not, Michael.
And the facts speak for themselves. You went to a boat show where people paid nine dollars to go enjoy looking and new boats and fishing supplies and whatnot and prospected them to join Amway.
Of course you don't think that's rude. Anyone who isn't used to Amway distributors would find it abhorent. I took a straw poll of 7 people who have never been involved in MLM. 100% thought that was a disgusting thing to do.
Trying to deflect criticism by accusing your opponents of having "low self-esteem" is extremely lame, by the way. It just shows that you can't answer the criticism. If you can't take a little straight talk from me, I absolutely guarantee that you aren't cut out for any sales business in the long run.
Toughen up, Michael. Your insecurity is showing.
lawDawg
Yeah Michael, toughen up.
You want to talk insecure? Tell your upline you're going off tapes. See if they're still your best friends in the world.
For someone preaching about the virtues of judging people you don't know, you sure are quick to say that I'm judgemental. I've only formed an opinion based on what you wrote, to wit:
"Meanwhile, I am off to the Minneapolis Boat show today to go dream and prospect peeps!"
"Do you know why I like to hang out at the boat show? TO LEARN."
Nice business that teaches you to lie to yourself.
Real nice.
Michael:
Seriously, look at yourself and the comments you've made. The insecurity in play here is within the one who lies to justify his actions. That, my friend, is you.
You know it to be true. Come clean, cut your losses, and enjoy future boat shows for what they are...a freekin showcase of boats (and apparently Musky champions).
Do you notice it takes 5 guys to go after one individual? Talk about pathetic....
Do you think we're all wrong Michael? Is that the problem? Or is it you know we're all right?
It's no different than you teaming up with your upline to sponsor that next poor sap, bombarding the poor prospect from all sides, and not giving him a chance to think straight. Or from having opens where people are made to feel stupid for disagreeing with any speaker or this business in general.
I predict it won't be too long before you go paddling off into the sunset, as does everyone else who thinks that they can come in here and try to blow the Amway sunshine into people's lives that know better. Most people fade off when the tapespeak gets slammed to the canvas faster than you can say "Paddle the canoe".
I hope I'm wrong, but doubt I am.
Michael, I hope you had fun there. Want me as your tag team partner here ;)
Can you answer my questions?
- Why ppl don't like to be prospected? I don't. I don't like telemarketers either. Why is that? True, 1 in 50 might be interested, but 99% would be annoyed. Is this a good approach?
- do you happen to know the difference between prospecting vs. networking?
- If I say you are advertising for your business, would you agree? If you do: What is the major flaw in advertisement?
I was involved in Amway/Quixtar for 6 years. Worked my butt off, listened to my upline, was honest, hard working and loyal. My upline bailed after costing me a house and, through his "counseling" put my debt and credit in the trash. I learned alot however and now, after real hard work and better decisions based on experiance, I have a great "loser" job, a new house and good credit. Watch yourself Mike, don't get taken. Your upline will like you only if you conform.
Sorry Michael, but ad hominen attacks are usually the last resort of the IBO who has been completely trounced by the facts and truth. "Do you notice it takes 5 guys to go after one individual? Talk about pathetic...." Do you really think calling the five people talking to you "pathetic" is going to do anything to advance your argument? Nope. It only a deflection tactic used to attack the messengers, instead of the message. Similar to calling us "broke losers."
Mikey:
You gotta un-spin your last comment too...
We aren't ganging up, we are all proving our respective points...the fact is, you don't have a defense against the truth.
Even if you don't accept our points, you have to understand what Niske is telling you.
You can keep running, but eventually ALL of these truths are going to catch up with you....sorry...that's the way it is.
Let me ask you this,
Would you like me more or less if I said "quixtar sucks" at the beginning? I fully understand the Quixtar business and it means something totally different to me than it does to you. If you are at someplace that you want to be in life, my hats off to you. Thats Great! I'm right where I want to be at in life and I am enjoying it through my opportunity. Go ahead and prejudge people all you want to. I have a healthy attitude about this business, and my upline and my mentors. I am going to stick to my guns 100%. I suggest you get to know ME before you judge my business. I am not brainwashed in this business. I am not a guy who wears suits and ties(yuck). The more you can prejudge me the more I can tell you are insecure. I am not naive about this thing, but I figured out how to make it work. I understand people got stupid before they got wiser. Hell I've done stupid things in the past too! Quixtar isn't one of those stupid things I've done. So before you label me, why don't you learn from me? I think with an open mind, I suggest you do the same.
How many times does this have to be explained to you Michael?
I'm not labeling you. ALL of my comments have been directed at your actions. You went to a boat show where people paid admission to see boats for the purpose of prospecting them about Amway. You said so yourself. What "label" am I using?
And you never answered my question:
How would you feel if you paid admission to take your kids to the theatre for a movie and I sat behind you during the movie trying to convince you of the virtues of $cientology?
It's a simple question. How would you feel?
Michael:
What BSMs do you recommend for your new IBOs if they are "serious" about the business?
Come on Mikey! ANSWER the questions, for once!
And don't leave the standard "Why should I?" answer; it is lame and tired like the re-hashed Amscam scripts already presented by your numerous cohorts.
Mike, you also didn't answered my question. It may help you understand why people don't like Quixtar / Amway, and you may work around it.
Imran,
In answer to your questions,
'Why ppl don't like to be prospected? I don't. I don't like telemarketers either. Why is that? True, 1 in 50 might be interested, but 99% would be annoyed. Is this a good approach?'
I agree with you, I don't like telemarketers much either and NO it's not a good approach for a network marketing business.
'do you happen to know the difference between prospecting vs. networking?'
Yes I do know the difference between prospecting VS networking. So I could honestly change my statement that 'I was prospecting at the boatshow' to that 'I was networking at the boatshow' Does that answer your question?
'If I say you are advertising for your business, would you agree?'
Yes I am advertising for my business- it's called word of mouth advertising.
'If you do: What is the major flaw in advertisement?'
One major flaw in advertising is targeting the wrong people.
My question to you is, how can 'I target the right people without asking someone if they are interested in taking a look or not?'
OK,
Here's a little DR.Philism for you this after noon. Can Y'all answer my questions honestly?
How can you have an objectional point of view if y'all are thinkin the same way?
All I hear from anti quixtar people is 1,001 ways NOT to do the business, which defeats your purpose of trying to convince people NOT to do the business at all.
another question,
How do you expect me to listen to your points of view and respect your decisions if you won't respect my point of view and my decision to do the business?
>"How can you have an objectional point of >view if y'all are thinkin the same way?"
This question doesn't make any sense. What does "objectional" mean? What does it have to do with people "thinkin [sic] the same way"?
>All I hear from anti quixtar people is 1,001 >ways NOT to do the business, which defeats >your purpose of trying to convince people >NOT to do the business at all.
This also doesn't make any sense. First, I've only seen one WAY not to do the business in this thread, though plenty of reasons not to do the business at all. What relationship are you imagining exists between the two?
>another question,
>How do you expect me to listen to your >points of view and respect your decisions if >you won't respect my point of view and my >decision to do the business?
We haven't even gotten that far. My lack of respect at this point is not for your "decision to do the business." My lack of respect has everything to do with you lying and contradicting yourself and for engaging in rude behavior by prospecting people at a boat show who paid to see boats, not to be harrassed by Amway distributors.
I begin with the presumption that a person is worthy of respect, Michael. But once they have shown that they are not, EARNING respect is their problem.
And whining about being criticized, rather than being forthcoming and facing legitimate criticism, is a sure trip in the opposite direction from Respectville. Moreover, the more you call people names for pointing out your misdeeds, the more defensive and childish you appear.
I bet even Dr. Phil would agree with me about that.
And BTW, Michael:
You still haven't answered my two fairly simple questions:
(1) How would you feel if you paid admission to take your kids to the theatre for a movie and I sat behind you during the movie trying to convince you of the virtues of $cientology?
and
(2) What BSMs do you recommend for your new IBOs if they are "serious" about the business?
Maybe we all think the same because most of us here have had similar experiences, have looked up the same research over time with AmQuix. It's little wonder that we have all come to similar conclusions. Still doesn't mean we all believe the same thing in lockstep. For example, I believe it is possible to carve out a small niche for yourself and make a true profit in AmQuix if (and only if) you focus on retailing, and only have a downline that too is focussed on retail. Others here probably disagree.
As far as advertising goes, there is a major flaw in your business "plan" of going to a boat show to find potential prospects. People going to a boat show do not go to find out about AmQuix, but to find out about boats and things related to boats only. It is totally hit or miss when you spend your money to go to the same boat show and attempt to pitch your business, which is pretty much totally unrelated to boats! Not to mention, you run the high risk of running into people totally apalled about being approached by a non-boat related MLM business while paying money to spend time at a boat show. These people could be potential customers, but you could completely turn them off from your business, just because you approached them at the wrong time, and at the wrong place.
Which brings me to a point that is negative about AmQuix and other MLM's in general. Little research, if any, is done to find the target audience. If you look at traditional advertising, a lot of money is spend on demographics so that advertisers run the best chance of advertising their produce to the proper audience. Take the Super Bowl, for example. Do you expect to see feminine products advertise or beer ads? Now, compare with a daily soap operas. What do you expect to find? Why is this? Because advertisers and advertising firms spend millions on finding their target, so their advertising budgets don't get wasted trying to sell beer to babies.
In contrast, Michael ends up going to a boat show in Minneapolis to pitch his business. How does he know a single person at the boat show wants to learn about AmQuix? Truth is, he doesn't. All we can assume is everyone at the show is most likey interested in boats. From that, we can gather a good majority is intersted in fishing. But a business that sells soap and energy drinks? Totally unrelated.
Mike, the business is sound. If put together honestly. Truth is, most of your uplines income is derived by tapes and other "business" tools. Less then a quarter is earned from actual product sales. I learned this hard truth by becoming close to my upline diamond and in a moment of weakness he let the cat out of the bag. I felt hurt, deceived, and angry. I had given my life to the principles preached by the upline diamonds and other pins. most of which are devorced because of infidelity (Paul Miller, Dave Taylor, Bobby Britt, John Merris) or under investigation for fraud. My advice to you is make sure you stay clean and be truthful to your values. And shop for an upline that is truley building the business for the right reasons. Here is a litmus test; If your upline asked you to give up something like a house or an extra car and after you say no does he continue to brow beat you and make you feel like your not willing to "pay the price"? Or does he respect your opinion and continue to be a steadfast friend and couselor? Don't learn the answer to that question the hard way like I did.
I would imagine that Michael chose to "prospect" at a boat show for a few reasons.
1) He may find people there who would love to own some recreational equipment, but can't afford it. (What a great opportunity to get people in "dream mode"!!! Let the greed begin!)
OR
2) He knows that those people who are interested in buying a boat have a relatively good amount of money. There may be people there who don't mind spending more for stuff--maybe not the most economically-minded type of people.
They may not notice that the cereal they buy from Quixtar costs 2x as much than if they would buy it on sale at the local grocery store, but hey, it sure is convenient isn't it, to have it come to your front door?
Also, I've heard that it is really impressive to have professionals (doctors, laywers,)in your downline. This gives the business validity and the appearance of integrity for those prospects who come to the open meeting, who truly can't afford the business, but think that "the Biz" is the answer to all their prayers.
Aaahhh Michael, way to hang in there.
Will you still show profiles when recruiting? Not very honorable if it's against the rules.tsk.tsk.
You whine about people judging you, it hasn't happened, just your actions (which were pretty pathetic) have been judged. Yet you say myself and Lawdawg suffer from low self esteem(!) BTW, how did I put you down? By disparaging "your" business?
You fully understand the Quixtar business do you? So you know those people in the profiles make most of their income from the very functions and "tools" that are there to help you succeed? Do you tell your prospects this?
"I am not naive about this thing, but I figured out how to make it work"
And how is it to work exactly? What did you "figure" that nobody else did up until now?
That's good you have an open mind. Understand this, if your mind is too open, it's just an extra hole in the head.
I don't have a problem with you, nor do I think anyone else here does. But do you not find it strange that the questions here are so hard to answer?
Maybe your mind isn't open to the right things.
Niske,
I am very sorry you were hurt in this business.
You guys win! Is that what you want?
I'm not sure what you mean by win.
I know you haven't been able to answer any of the other questions, but what do you mean by that?
I wasn't trying to "win" anything. I just wanted to get some answers to my questions. Which you still haven't answered. To wit:
(1) How would you feel if you paid admission to take your kids to the theatre for a movie and I sat behind you during the movie trying to convince you of the virtues of $cientology?
and
(2) What BSMs do you recommend for your new IBOs if they are "serious" about the business?
Michael,
I'll step in here and say something. I respect you tremendously for participating in the online experience. I also appreciate your candor about the business. And I've expressed elsewhere that those who use their real names instantly earn a great amount of credibility in my mind. It means you're willing to put your integrity behind what you write and that means something.
In my experience online I've butted heads with lots of folks that think I'm an idiot and who really don't like me. But I'm fine with that. Those who get along best on the Web have thick skins.
Is it irritating when others pick at me? Of course. But that's part of the experience. Not my favorite part but I take it in stride. I recognize that even my detractors have made some excellent points. Points that are admittedly buried under a mountain of charged rhetoric but points that I've taken to heart.
I also understand that these people don't really "know" me at all. They only know this Web persona and that's filtered through their own biases and agendas. I understand that it's not me that is being attacked but what they perceive me to be.
I often take it for granted that other Web folks have the same knowledge about this that I do but that's not always the case. If I've helped you get a better understanding of what's going on with some of these comments then that's all I'm hoping for.
Geez lawDawg, ask him an easy question, like how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?
Roger
Hi,
I have been visiting this blog for a while now. Never posted my comments. I used to be in old Amway back in 97. My roommate signed me up when I just finished my grad school. I was really excited during my first year. In th hindsight, its difficult to comprehend the things I did like lienating close friends. Eventually quit after spending money I borrowed and with my credit in the pits. Now doing Ok working in J-O-B. But since then I got hit 10 times by Amway/Quixtar people and got insulted when I politely declined.
Which makes me wonder, what makes well educated, well mannered, smart people like this. To be honest, my heart goes out for these people. Working in a business where there literally no chance of success and have to spend like crazy on so called 'Toos'.
Mike and other pro-amquixers, pls take time out from business. May be like a 15 days to a month and evaluate business and your soical life. If you see something different, think about it. If you still want to go back and do quixtar, then God Bless you. I sincerely wish you do make some money even though I know the result would be different.
Peace out
Prasad.
Mike still hasn't answered the majority of the questions asked to him...the questions posed in response is a pretty futile defense mechanism.
One would think that the self proclaimed "Cliff Clavin" of the internet would have the ANSWERS, not more questions!
BTW, that may be the corniest self-descript ever....
You know uh, contrary to populah belief, it was the ancient mesopotaimians there dat first stahted da Quixtah business we know t'day.
Ya see, most people tink it was DeVos n VanAndle there but it was an ancient king by da name of Pivibeevee dat first came up wit da idear uh sellin magic potions to da masses from the top o' da temples.
I red it somwheah, no kiddn. Hey Sammie, fill 'er up!
Oh, hey Nahrmie, your just in time. I's tellin the fellas about this exitin business opportunity.
Michael, first of all read QBlog's comment, I was going to say similar stuff but he put it much nicely.
Owner of this blog has said he respects you. And this blog happens to be favourite blog of many ppl, including me! If it says something.
I don't know if any one here don't respects you......I'll speak for myself, I don't, and I'm not going to pin you either. I'm just making one point: Common folks don't like Quixtar styled prospecting. There are MUCH better ways around. That's why I asked that questions. Lets find them ;)
Michael> Yes I do know the difference between prospecting VS networking. So I could honestly change my statement that 'I was prospecting at the boatshow' to that 'I was networking at the boatshow' Does that answer your question?
Imran> No Mike, It doesn't. I wasn't there. I don't know what you did, but my guess it you did prospecting, NOT networking. Just rephrasing it doesn't change it, what you did is what you did, whatever it was. Please read this and figure yourself:
http://tinyurl.com/5ke8m
Michael> One major flaw in advertising is targeting the wrong people.
My question to you is, how can 'I target the right people without asking someone if they are interested in taking a look or not?'
Imran> Now we are talking! How can you? How to 'find' right ppl without bugging and wasting time of many non-interested folks? Telemarketing is not the smartest way, right? Companies do advertise and sell by other methods, right? It’s being done.
Read this blog: http://mlmblog.typepad.com/
And
http://mlminsider.com/besttrainerresults2004.htm
That’s what the tools should be about. Just prospecting every one breathing gave Quixtar the fame it has, and that’s what make Amway a house hold joke in America. In computer language we call it a brute force algorithm, i.e. exhausting every possible option. And that is the worst form of algorithm!
I'm sure MLM folks have found better ways. If they have not, they are so dumb ;)
OK, I had to chime in. I was in "the biz" from 1994-1998. My diamond was Fred Harteis. I work as an Auditor in a hotel and we have many MLM's do "opens" here on a bi-weekly to monthly basis (Quixtar, Nikken, Market America, etc.). I get to listen and observe these people in action.
Mike's big complaint is about people prejudging him unfairly:
"Why don't you get to know someone first before you make assumptions about them?" "Don't be judging people DF."
"Go ahead and prejudge people all you want to. I have a healthy attitude about this business, and my upline and my mentors. I am going to stick to my guns 100%. I suggest you get to know ME before you judge my business."
YET - Mike, using prejudging and assumptions, goes to a boat show (I went to car shows, boat shows, home shows, etc., too - we called it "contacting" back then) and "prospects" people for his business. He doesn't know heads or tails about them - but in a few short seconds deems them business material. Can we say IRONIC?
Lawdawg - I would be royally PO'd if you started talking about Scientology to me at a movie - that's not what I spent my money for when I bought my ticket - just like I'm sure 99.9% of the people who paid 9 bucks for the boat show didn't go there to hear about an "opportunity" That method is called "throw it against the wall and see what sticks"
As I stated, I get to watch these people in action. In fact, I've been prospected many, many times, 3 times in one night by different people in the same group - all with the same rehearsed lines about me being "sharp", but they "can't promise me anything".
Our hotel now has a No Solicitation policy with these groups, as we employees are tired of being bombarded with their pitches. If I was interested, I'd come to work early and sit in on the meeting.
As for the whole positive/negative thing: One can't exist w/o the other (check a battery or pull out a picture of an atom from your old science textbook) Some of the most negative (at the time) events that have happened to me have turned out to be the most positive influences for my life. I'll take reality over the fake, forced "positive" that I see from the fired up IBO's.
It is true that you will probably never hear an IBO call someone a "loser" to their face after they turn down the biz - but I heard it from stage many times from Dexter, Fred, Brett Diemler,etc., and we would hear it/say it after the one on ones while screaming "next" or "SW SW SW"
I'll have to post more about my experiences as time permits - gotta go back to my "loser J.O.B." you know.
Bruce, I look forward to your future postings. I think there is a lot of value in hearing from those that lost their arse in the Amscam process. Fortunately, I was never naive to get sucked into the mess. Unfortunately, my lack of direct experience is fodder for my critics.
Michael, there was been a lot of talk about respect or lack thereof on this post. A lot of people are tap dancing around the issue.
I'll come out and say it -- I DON'T RESPECT YOU. I don't have respect for people that lie to other people. It is pretty cut and dry really. You lie, and I don't respect liars.
No apolgies here. Cry all you want....
Bruce, great to hear from you, I enjoyed your post.
I think we've likely heard the last of Michael, but I'm sure he'll read this. I would have to say that I agree with DF, in that I have a very hard time respecting people who disrespect others.
Intentional or not, it is dishonest and disrespectful to try and prospect people at movies, boat shows, etc. hiding the Amway name, because you KNOW if the name is dropped, the prospect is gone.
I remember at a True North function in Edmonton one of the speakers telling the crowd to pre-qualify the prospect. Hold a mirror up to their mouth, and if it fogs over, they qualify.
It is this type of mentality that gets Amway/Quixtar people the horrific name that they have.
It is a deceptive and dishonest method of recruitment, and that turns most people off, but I guess those that don't mind the deception and dishonesty likely won't have a tough time with the tools business income.
Michael, your "business" is in dire need of fixing, and it won't be done any time soon. Until it does change, it will be considered dishonest and disrespectful. Just my opinion.
lawdawg,
To answer your questions,
1) How would you feel if you paid admission to take your kids to the theatre for a movie and I sat behind you during the movie trying to convince you of the virtues of $cientology?
if you tried talking to me during a movie, I'd tell you to shut the hell up. if you wanted to talk to me about your 'religion' after the movie out in the parking lot, go right ahead. Not likely that I'll be interested in your religion, but you'll have the right to discuss it.
2) What BSMs do you recommend for your new IBOs if they are "serious" about the business?
First, I recommend Greg Duncan's maximizing your profitability tape. I also give new prospects a copy of John Sestina's tape on creating financial Independence. I'll also give new prospects a copy of John C Maxwell's tape 'ordinary to extraordinary'
I also recommend people getting on Communikate before getting on SOT.
I just want to thank Qblog for putting it so elegantly. I respect him and his blog for allowing others to post even when they have apposing views. I wish others on these posts would feel the same way. I will continue to share this blog with my new prospects to get respectable information. If there are any other blogs who show the same respect Qblog does, I'll be glad to recommend them as well. As far as posting here, I'll still post. I'll just make sure my emotions are in check before I post my responses.
Thanks.
See, that wasn't so hard. :)
Now, with regard to the first question, can you understand why a large number of people have a similar reaction to the names "Quixtar" and "Amway" as they do to "Scientology" and "Jehovah's Witnesses"?
And BTW, before you started building your business at the boat show, did you get the permission of the show's promoters?
So they should start out on Kate. How much per month does that cost?
When should they start on SOT? How much is that per month?
Should they sign up for website access? How much does that cost per month?
How about weekly opens? Should they attend weekly opens? How much does WWDB charge for those? How much time does it typically take to attend one?
What about monthly or quarterly functions or seminars? How many are there? Do you suggest that your recruits attend them? How much do they cost?
Annual functions, "free enterprise days", "family reunions"? Do you take your downline to these? Who do you suggest should go? How much do these things cost?
What about suggested reading? Is there a suggested booklist? How many books per month? What is the average cost for the monthly reccommended books?
For each of these categories, at which point do you suggest that an IBO who is serious about the business get involved in buying them?
lawdawg,
Since when do I need permission to talk about what I do for a living? As long as a person asks me, 'what do you do for a living?' I do tell people 100% what I do for a living. I am in quixtar.Thats what I tell them.
DO I have to call every event that I go to that an Amway guy is coming down to prospect- better check him at the gate or make him pay a booth fee? Thats rediculus lawdawg. Someone asks me what do I do for a living, I will tell them up front. Or do I tell them, OH I can't tell you, I don't have permission from the shows promotors yet. Better yet, are you going to tell the boat show people that an Amway guy was prospecting at their event? That would be too funny.
Out of 10 people who I cold contact, usually 2 will say they have never heard of amway or quixtar. SO how do I know what perceptions of quixtar they have until I ask them? What does prospecting at a boat show have anything to do with prospecting religion at a movie theatre? A boat show was there to sell boats.
The second part of your question. I ask the IBO what his needs are for studying the business. What level does he want to get involved at? If he don't want something he doesn't get it, period. I can cancel my SOT at anytime and my upline will still contact me.
You didn't read the question Michael. I didn't ask whether you told them what you do for a living. I asked whether you asked them for permission before you started operating your business in the middle of their boat show.
Did you pay for the advertisements for the boat show that brought those people there in the first place?
Did coordinate the show and its vendors to provide a good show that people would want to see?
Might people leave the boat show with a bad experience because they were harrassed by an Amway distributor?
Do the vendor's who lease kiosk space at the boat show to sell their wares pay more than a $9 admission fee?
See, Michael, in addition to irritating people, you were basically stealing from the people who put on the show.
As to the second question, it is what do you recommend to your new downline IBOs? What do you tell them they should do?
What does WWDB tell them they should do if they are serious?
If they go to a function, what will they hear are necessary parts of building a successful WWDB Amway/Quixtar business?
Ever heard of CORE?
lawdawg - I am not Michael, but I can help answer your questions about WWDB's teachings...since ALL of WW is supposed to be teaching the same thing, this should be pretty standard..
So they should start out on Kate. How much per month does that cost?
Kate is $31.95 per month. Faxes are an addtional charge. This charge is for the recommended Kate. There is a lite Kate, which I think is around $25 mo.
When should they start on SOT? How much is that per month?
If you are interested in building a 'Quixtar' business, you should get on SOT asap. The typical amount is $42 month (6 tapes per month), and 4 times a year, there will be a 'special SOT' for a charity of some sort, or a video, or the Profiles of Success, which runs $18. This is in PLACE of a weekly SOT, but it's usually in place of a SINGLE SOT at $7. Please see clarifier below regarding these pricings...
Should they sign up for website access? How much does that cost per month?
ISP access for WWG starts at $29 per month. I haven't heard that this is pushed too much. Most people already have their own service when they sign up.
How about weekly opens? Should they attend weekly opens? How much does WWDB charge for those? How much time does it typically take to attend one?
There are no 'required' weekly meetings, but you ARE encouraged to attend ALL meetings when your Diamond is in town, even if you do not bring guests. Typical charge is $7 if they are renting space. If it is at someone's home, no charge. There are also Attitude Sessions, Second Look Meetings, probably every other month - again, space is always rented so $7 per person. Those not in the business (guests or prospects) are free. It is highly RECOMMENDED that you attend all of these, as you would not want to be disrespectful to a Diamond if they were coming to your area out of the goodness of their heart to want to help you. You should be there.
What about monthly or quarterly functions or seminars? How many are there? Do you suggest that your recruits attend them? How much do they cost?
Monthly opens at $7 per person, per session. A Saturday session with a 'Seminar' & 'Teaching' & then an 8pm 'Rally' will run each person $21. So a couple, $42. Yes, you are highly encouraged to be there, at the expense of all else in your life. Time involved depends on region and how close they are to you. We (Metro Detroit area) had to travel to Toledo Ohio - about 2 hrs from where we live. So Saturday sessions were an all day event. Plus food. We did not spend the night. However, others are closer, and still others, further and require an overnite stay. You must be an IBO to attend most of the Teaching & Seminar sessions, but non-IBOs & guests can attend the Rally sessions. Then there are 'specials' which are the Nutrilite seminar and the Artistry seminar. If you are a 'business builder' you are expected to be there - in fact - expected to WANT to be there to learn the latest information about the products for your business. $15 & $25 per person, respectively.
Annual functions, "free enterprise days", "family reunions"? Do you take your downline to these? Who do you suggest should go? How much do these things cost?
WWG recommends that if you have 10 people on SOT, then you should have 30 people in attendance at a major function. In other words, a ratio of 3:1 function attendance:SOT. 4 major functions per year. Dream Night is a cost of $65 per person. Again, depending on region - you may/may not need a hotel for the evening. This event is in January. Leadership Weekend is a 2 day (Sat/Sun) ALL DAY each day event, which is usually in 3 different areas of the country, so most people DO have to travel. In addition then, to the $100 ticket price per person, you have travel, lodging, and food expense. As you begin at 9 am on Sat, most people have to spend Fri nite & Sat nite. Usually ends around 5 on Sunday (church service is 9-12am), but the big cheese, Ron Puryear, is usually the last to speak on Sunday, and your upline will tell you that you absolutely, positively CANNOT miss your big Leader's presentation. At the two I bothered to stay for his speech at, he spoke until almost 6pm. We then had an 8 hr drive home. This event is in the Spring. Summer brings "Family Reunion", which is another weekend event, but is more scattered, depending on your "Family Upline" hometown. This one WWG requires you (Michael disputes this, but I have experienced it) to purchase the hotel and tickets to the function as a package. $465 ticket/hotel for one night, plus travel food, and additional lodging if necessary. FED is the fall event, at $100 per ticket. Friday nite, Sat all day, Sun till 5pm. Same as above - most need to travel so add hotel plus travel expenses plus food. These functions are HIGHLY recommended, and they start harping on you for the next one when the last one is finished. I just got notice for Spring Leadership, and Dream nite just happened (I don't attend).
What about suggested reading? Is there a suggested booklist? How many books per month? What is the average cost for the monthly reccommended books?
Our group recommended 1 book a month. Prices ranged from $8-$20.
For each of these categories, at which point do you suggest that an IBO who is serious about the business get involved in buying them?
I can't answer this question for Michael. He seems like he follows some of their requirements, but not all. So no, he would not be considered CORE. I will let him speak to his practices, however.
The new WWG membership ladder offers 'discounts' on tapes with a monthly fee of $37.95 per month - Premier Membership. This also entitles you to a website to help advertise your business. I haven't seen it, so I can't speak to it. Or you may have the Enhanced Membership at $16.95 month, or keep the Standard at $2.00 per month (used to be $12/year). I think QBlog had a link to the FAQ in a previous post if you want to view the whole selection process.
Hope that helped, and Michael, please let us know how you conduct YOUR business.
Disenchanted,
Geez, after running the numbers, I can see why you are so disenchanted. That's a lot of monthly expenses....I'd be disenchanted too.
So how much XS do you have to sell to breakeven each month? Did anyone use XS regularly BEFORE joining the business?
Michael, if you can provide a truthful answer, I'd love to hear about it...
Mikey,
What can you tell me about your business affiliates (if you consider Disney an affiliate, then you must include those dorky couples at the functions as affiliates!) putting on these weird blog bombs? [see: 'So Busted' as reference]
Surely, you have an explanation....
Lawdawg,
I am not understanding your question. If its a question at all. Do you realize how many MLMers(not just Quixtar) walked through that boatshow that day? Who's to say I was harassing- that's YOUR perception, not anyone elses.
Let me ask DF, lawdawg, and Disenchanted a question. Why don't you guys show your real names on this blog? What have you got to hide?
Michael,
In the immortal words of "Donkey" from the Shrek DVD... PICK ME! PICK ME! PICK ME!
I'm using my real name, and I have a real site as well. Even more info is available there, feel free to check it out, we'd love to have you there to answer (or give your opinion even) on some of the discussions there. Quixtar used to visit us pretty regular, but they only read and never posted.
Maybe you could get elevated into their "Web Initiative Task Force" since you are a real blogger and know a bit more about the 'Net than they appear too. You could report to them what you see on my site since they are banned from viewing, might help get your foot in the door. [grin]
"What does prospecting at a boat show have anything to do with prospecting religion at a movie theatre?" "A boat show was there to sell boats." - Actually, it has everything to do with it. It's called Solicitation, and it is against the law in many places.
I can assure you that the boat show didn't want solicitors there either (hence why you see "No Solicitors" signs). How many sales or leads did you and your fellow MLM'ers cost the vendors there by distracting people or causing them to leave early because you prospected people for your "opportunity"? Those vendors paid a lot of $$ to get those spots - how many people working that day did you tie up with "what you do for a living" instead of letting them service boat customers?
"What do you do for a living" is not standard small talk. I travelled a long way (from Maine) last fall to go see two Washington State University football games. Not once did any of the 38,000 plus people there ask me what I did for a living. We mostly talked about the game and shouted "Go Cougs!" I think it would be safe to say people went to boat show to talk about - dare I say it - boats!
You have to lead your "prospect" into that "what do you do for a living" question, whether it's the FORM method or a different one, so I highly doubt people were asking Michael left and right what he does for a living.
Not once during the 3 weeks we were in Wash. and Idaho did anyone causally ask our about our work - the only times were when my wife visited hospitals to see the Nurse Recruiters, as we are looking to relocate there. And at least we were honest when we visited the hospitals and didn't have an alterior motive - unlike some boat show attendees.
"XS _ It's the Sweet Shot of the New Millennium!!"
Me too....I'm using my real name as well :) Have recieved a call from Quixtar too but it was regarding my complaint to them.
Rocket is hiding as he is a weapon of mass destruction
LawDawg is hiding because he is scared of cats......
df is....df....;););)
Ok, prospecting: If I show up at an "open" to sell stuff? Or .... go to a Quixtar seminar and start telling IBOs about passport, would I be welcome there? Or some platinum will ask me not to do so? I don't know..you tell me what will happen.
Point is, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
PS: LawDawg's question couldn't me more clearer.
Irman - excellent point! I wonder how happy the Quixtar people would be if I interrupted their meeting/open to hawk room specials for the night.
Disenchanted - your breakdown of SOT/book/meeting "recommendations" is pretty much right on line on what a "winner" in the Harteis LOS was expected to do. Not much has changed over the years - except for ISP and the latter. At least you didn't get subjected to listening to Tonya Harteis "sing" at your functions - and heaven forbid if you criticized it.
I never really "lost my arse" in the business - but it took a while to financially and emotionally recover from it. But when I left the business in 1998 because "my dream was stolen" and those uplines who "loved me uncoditionally" were suddenly nowhere to be found, that very negative experience became one of the best positives that has ever happenend to me (that whole positive/negative thing again).
I have some literature left over from the last Quixtar meeting here that I will post about soon.
Oh for heaven's sake Michael - my name is Jeannie. I kind of think that Disenchanted IBO describes what I am with the business, where Jeannie doesn't say much, now does it? I'm not hiding anything. I am still an IBO (member, prosumer, whatever you call it now) and I purchase the products that I want. I shop at Kroger and Target & Walmart for most of my stuff, but some of Quixtar's products I actually like and wish they were available on the open market, like REAL free enterprise. And yeah, sometimes I criticize Kroger and Target and Walmart too. So what's your point? My upline AND Quixtar were fully aware of my issues, and NEITHER one ever bothered to respond to my questions or concerns, so I'm really not too worried about it.
My participation in this blog is for the benefit of anyone who gains anything from my experiences. If you don't, fine, but as they say in the biz - some will, some won't, so what? (SW, SW, SW)
BTW, since you think I'm hiding, I would love to see a debate here about the cult aspects of the business. Some call it brainwashing (like you), others call it 'mind control' (see the ton's of previous links) like me. You ARE being molded, regardless of your so called 'independent-ness'. Anyway, just a thought.
Bruce - hmm, singing eh? Sounds charming. We have the Goads, who actually are pretty good, but the mixture of religion into the business I found objectionable. But they do have talent!!
Actually, Michael, again they are really easy questions:
Did you pay for the advertisements for the boat show that brought those people there in the first place?
Did you pay part of the money to lease the real estate where the boat show was held?
Did you help coordinate the show and its vendors to provide a good show that people would want to see?
Might people leave the boat show with a bad experience because they were harrassed by an Amway distributor?
Do the vendor's who lease kiosk space at the boat show to sell their wares pay more than a $9 admission fee?
These seem like pretty simple questions. What don't you understand?
BTW, Disenchanted, thanks a lot for the information.
How much would you estimate an average CORE IBO in WWDB spends per month on tools?
Don't include travel expenses for now, just the tapes, books, website fees, Kate, functions/seminars, etc. For annual functions just divide the total cost per year by twelve. I'd like to get an idea of what Michael's downline is being told they should spend each month to be "serious" WWDB style Amway/Quixtar distributors.
I thank you in advance for whatever information you can provide.
Maybe the boat venders should show up to your next WW meeting and start asking everyone if they would like to by a boat in the middle of your meeting, Michael? Would that be appropriate? IBO's spend good money to attend these "business" meetings to talk about Quixtar, and while boats may be a topic of casual conversation, selling boats really has little to do with Quixtar. So, would a boat salesperson be welcome at your meeting, Michael? Of course not. Yet, IBO's always seem to think they are welcome to prospect at events that have nothing to do with Quixtar!
By the way, my name is Dan.
Mikey:
My use of an alias has nothing to do with anything--it is what it is. Take it or leave, I really don't care.
Instead of pushing more questions out there, why don't you just answer the questions posed to you? And try to answer them truthfully....
guys,
I'd like my questions answered before your questions are answered. Why don't you guys post your name? It's just telling me you want to be less accountable for your comments. You do lose all credibility when you post anonymously.
Question of the day: 'What have you got to hide when you don't want to post your real name?' Answer that one.
I don't use my name because I believe it is generally foolish to use one's real name on the Internet.
I understand that this affects my credibility. However, I believe that it does not have a sufficient effect on my credibility to outweight the beneficial effect on my credibility that flows from the CONTENT of what I write or the QUALITY of my research.
Now, the reason you are raising it is because you don't want to answer my questions because, once again, the CONTENT of my post and QUALITY of my research you haven't been able to question. So you make a red herring about the fact that I post anonymously.
So I have answered your question.
Now answer my questions.
Come on, LawDawg, everyone knows that IBOs are taught to answer a question with a question.
"He who asks the questions is in control of the conversation..." is something I recall hearing on a tape.
Michael said:
Question of the day: 'What have you got to hide when you don't want to post your real name?' Answer that one.
and I say:
Standard redirection technique, come in big and bad about your business, what you do and how great it is... then when asked to explain something you've said (in this case the going to a boat show intent to prospect people) and creating new questions to "qualify us" for the answer.
Michael, no offense, I think it's nice that you have a real blog, and you are gung-ho on Quixtar....but the problem is the tools and methods. When confronted on the rudeness of intentionally going to a boat show to prospect, and lawDawg compared it to you being approached at a movie theater by scientologists, you said it was okay for them to do it in the parking lot... but not in the movie. Did you only prospect in the parking lot?
Is it okay in open public but not in movie where attention is to the event (i.e. movie)? How is that different than at the boat show where the attention is to the event (i.e boats, displays, presentations)??
Is that why IBOs are now taught to prospect at bookstores and in mall hallways? They are like being on the street? Do you randomly approach people out on the street and inquire to their job, financial happiness, and dreams the way a beggar approaches for loose change?
I'm immune from your last deflection question, it is my real name. So I guess you'll have to come up with a new one.
BTW, I am not against Quixtar as a means to sell product to make money... I am against the various LOS' that exploit the IBO for their own business and the complacency that Quixtar has shown in allowing the abuse of their IBOs only because Quixtar benefits monetarily as a result of the financial rapoing the tools business does to the IBO.
I believe you could make money selling Quixtar products IF the price structure wasn't no bad because of having to pay so many middlemen, and the bonus stucture was focused on sales and not recruitment... and you didn't have to spend so much on tools to your upline Diamond's business.
Roger
lawdawg - you asked:
How much would you estimate an average CORE IBO in WWDB spends per month on tools?
CORE entails 9 steps, so I took those into account below in my addtion.
For a starting point I added up Kate, tapes, monthly seminar, one book, one extra meeting and some kind of internet service (which I priced at $20). This would cover a couple, since both would theoretically listen to the same tapes & read the same book. Mind you, this is the MINIMUM.
$160.00 per month - Monthly starting point
x12 months
$1920 year
For yearly items, I added 1 yr membership of $12 to WWDB website, approximately $995 flat fees (not including travel, food, lodging expenses) for the four major functions, and 3 additional seminars, like Attitude, Second Look totaling $42, then added Nutrilite & Artistry Seminars totaling $80. So we come up with additional YEARLY expense of about $1150 - give or take a few. Again, this is for a couple.
Add them together and a CORE couple can expect to spend, at a minimum:
$1920 + 1150 = $3070
For the BASIC CORE couple. Again, this does not include ANY of the expense items, and you have not spent ONE DIME on products yet.
But wait - there's more!!! You also are out showing the plan 2-3x week at a MINIMUM, so you need to have INFO kits to leave with the prospects!! To purchase the case and all the recommended contents, you are talking approximately $80 each. And a SERIOUS business builder can't have just one, because you ALWAYS want to leave a new prospect with additional information and products to try!!! It was recommended to us that we purchase 3, which was the standard in our group. Add $240 for the first year (I won't even add in the extra costs to REFILL or REPLACE the kits). And, if you're REALLY SERIOUS (and you act NOW!), you really need to buy the True North Tape (or CD) set when you're new to "Get Started Right!" This set consists of 17 tapes, at the low low cost of $120. Again, I won't add the taxes, and of course, the standard 4% handling fee for any order!!!
So if you're REALLY SERIOUS, in addition to the costs above, for the first year in business, you have costs totaling:
$3070 + 360 = $3430 /12 =
MONTHLY MINIMUM COST: Approx $285
I could go on. Because there were additional things that are recommended, and if you truly are 'CORE', as they say, you are spending additional money on additional tools on the "advice and counsel" of your valuable upline and mentor, under the guise of "If I was just starting and wanted to be successful - this is what I would do if I were you...." Another part of core is having a 300PV personal circle (personal use and retail), and if you don't have any customers, or you failed to reach that goal with customers, you should buy whatever you need to hit your 300PV. As mentioned in an earlier post, that's typically somewhere in the neighborhood of $750 on core products. But these aren't tools, mind you, but they are an influencing factor in the monthly spending that is recommended.
I am open to discussing this business. I will provide truthful answers based on my experiences, so you may ask whatever you want. If there is a question I do not want to answer, I will just tell you. Hope that helps.
Michael: Questions asked first are aswered first. Lawdawg asked you first. Yet he has answered your question. Some other posters have told you their real name as well, yet you are beating around the bush. Manay other posters use their real name as well. AND having a nickname on web is a very common practice. Saves a person from spam bots and whatnot.
Are you going to answer his Questions now?
Roger, Husband of a TEAM brainwashee wrote:
BTW, I am not against Quixtar as a means to sell product to make money... I am against the various LOS' that exploit the IBO for their own business and the complacency that Quixtar has shown in allowing the abuse of their IBOs only because Quixtar benefits monetarily as a result of the financial rapoing the tools business does to the IBO.
I believe you could make money selling Quixtar products IF the price structure wasn't no bad because of having to pay so many middlemen, and the bonus stucture was focused on sales and not recruitment... and you didn't have to spend so much on tools to your upline Diamond's business.
HEAR HEAR!!!! Very nicely stated, and I concur!
Geez,
It seems that some of the critics on here need to get a life! You've posted so many negative comments on here, that I wonder what your life consists of. Do you write on bathroom walls too? How about doing something constructive and positive with your life, rather than trying to discredit others? If these critics are so wise and just in their comments, why don't they start their own business and actually contribute to society, rather than acting like spoiled children? As the saying goes "the dogs bark, but the train moves on."
lawdawg,
I knew you were going to answer in that fashion. My point to you is, If you have nothing to hide it wouldn't be foolish. If you choose to hide behind an alias, then you have zero respect or creditbility from me. I appreciate the responses from Imran, Greg, and Roger. Just because you post your names, doesnt mean I still have to answer lawdawg's question. I'd like to see lawdawg post his name just once.
Disenchanted, I never disagreed with people about the tools biz. I thank you for pointing out the fact about wanting to market the biz without the tools. Thats ok! I know how to retail Quixtar products as well, but people want to complain about whats not working more than they want to be helped. Disenchanted, my inbox is always open if you want help making money in this thing!
** COMMENT EDITED BY SITE ADMIN **
Why won't you answer the questions Michael?
I answered yours.
Thank you all for making this one popular thread but I'm closing the comments here and directing everyone to the Forum (quixtarblog.com/forum/) to continue the discussion. This post has around 100 comments and that's a lot. Comments were really designed to sustain endless back and forth discussions.
Thanks for understanding.
Qblog,
I think some quixtar IBO's like to use that because they probably do have a low self esteem. Just like Anti Quixtar people calling IBO's 'brainwashed'. I for one NEVER call prospects broke losers or anything else for that matter, cause I was once a broke loser myself. So calling someone a broke loser for me is the exact same as anti q people calling IBO's 'brainwashed'. Its 100% low self esteem.
Posted by: Michael | January 24, 2005 8:49 AM