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November 18, 2004
The Numbers Do (not) Matter
By QBlog in
Quixtar IBOs (and many other MLM recruiters) often say that 95% of all small businesses fail within the first five years of operation. There's some evidence (pdf) that seems to contradict that statistic while other evidence seems to support it. However, whether that statistic is true or not isn't the point of this post.
No, the point of this post is numbers. Quixtar recruiters often mention the "95% small business failure" rate to make their own business of Multi-Level Marketing more attractive. The message behind the stat is, "why waste your time trying to build a traditional small business when 95% of them fail in just five years? Those are horrible numbers and I've got a better opportunity for you right here." And the pitch continues.
The observant already know where this post is going. They can see the setup coming a mile away and they're either grinning or frowning because they realize the truth of what's coming next.
By Quixtar's own admission, less than 1% of its IBOs ever become Diamonds and approximately 90% of Quixtar IBOs quit the business after just four years. The typical IBO response to such claims is, "well if the dream is big enough, the numbers don't matter. Those IBOs who quit just aren't working the business. Those who are plugged into the right system and work it, they'll beat those odds."
Fine. Great. Super. But aren't we dealing with a classic case of "having your cake and eating it too?" It's the tale of the two statistics, both presenting gloomy outlooks for their related topics. However, one set of statistics is embraced with open arms by Quixtar IBOs (and their MLM brethren) while the other set of statistics is tossed away as "crazy negative talk." I wonder why that is? Do you have any guesses?
Comments
Spiler said:
If you work hard and expand the pie by 2-300 members, you're a Platinum. It's 100%, every time.
I ask:
so, why with so many IBOs, so few are successful?
Well I beg to differ with Spiler. A lot of the plan is a whole pile of fear mongering, with the impression being given that this is your one and only chance to be finacially successful.
The numbers DO matter. I'm sure there are a lot of traditional business owners who worked harder than some IBO's, yet in the end, the numbers got 'em. They needed a business that worked.
The Amway business plan kinda reminds me of the US election. If you vote for Kerry, the terrorists will get you. If you vote for Bush, you'll get sick and no health care to save you.
Basically, vote for me, OR DIE.
Do Amway, or be a broke, J-O-B owning fool, whose wife works for another man. Don't look at the numbers, you're above average.
Whatever
spiler said:
A traditional business is much harder to succeed at, at least to the higher income levels. Few will offer any residual income.
Please explain the "residual income" concept.
I did not see my diamonds ever "taking months off to go play on the beaches of the world". No, they boasted that they worked harder than anyone else in the group!
If 90% of the IBO's quit every four years, how does that make your income residual?
Roger- why are so few successful? Because they're in corrupt systems such as Yager's where the emphisis isn't on building a real business, but on tools and the system. Or they quit too soon, or they don't do the work. I read once where only 5% of those who sign up show the plan to three or more people. It's hard to be successful when you don't try. Is that the business's fault? Hardly- the business has no control over how much effort you put into it- but the IBO does.
Rocket- oh please! There isn't any fear-mongering in any of the plans I've seen. Nor has there been any pressure or threats. Why would anyone want to sponsor someone through intimidation or fear, knowing that they will eventually quit? We've only sponsored people who wanted to do more than they were with their lives, and brought their own motivation to the table. You can't push on a rope- why waste your time and theirs? Such actions don't show any respect for the dreams and goals of the downline, and just waste time and relationships.
My Diamond could have retired from the business completely many years ago, but continues to build the business to support and extend his beliefs, not for more money. There was enough of that many years ago. But not everybody builds it correctly, and many just end up with a well paid job. It's their fault, not the business's.
QBlog wrote: "the message behind the stat is, 'why waste your time trying to build a traditional small business when 95% of them fail in just five years? Those are horrible numbers and I've got a better opportunity for you right here."'
What? I have personally never heard that statistic used that way by an IBO. I think that if an IBO ever actually said that, that it would be the exception and not the rule. Did an IBO say this to you or are you just making this up as sarcasm?
The 95% failure rate is used as an example for how many businesses fail, so let's look at reasons why many fail. Then a pitch about how a business that has a "system" has a better chance for success than a "non-system" business.
For example, restaurants vs. franchise restaurants. Franchises have a much higher success rate. Why? Then you point out the many differences including the "proven system". So the pitch to the prospect would be, "doesn't it make sense to utilize a "system" to build your business?
Ok, I know that was not exact, but that is a much better illustration of how that statistic is used in network-marketing businesses.
For me personally, it does make sense to use a "system" to build my business, and so that example would work fine for me. So I am supportive of IBO's using it in that way.
--
Spiler wrote: "Bottom line, it's pretty hard to "fail" in an honest mlm if you listen, are willing to change, stick with it, and do the work. It is easy to quit though, and many do."
I agreed with this comment Spiler. I feel the same way. I have not yet had someone in my organization who "failed" by doing the things you suggested in that statement. In fact, the people who are following that advice are succeeding.
Your'e right. It's easy to quit. Because the investment is so low, their commitment does not need to be high. When starting up a traditional business, you often take out business/family loans. So you have a lot on the line, so you make it happen. And even with that attitude, chances for failure are still very high. And the losses are massive compared to someone starting and quitting a networking marketing biz.
But spiler, I would have to disagree with you about your comments of the Yager system. I am part of the Yager system and I wouldn't call it corrupt. The training system has helped me and my organization.
I don't know what you mean when you say: "the emphisis isn't on building a real business". The emphasis has always been on building a real business. I am not sure where you are getting your information about Yager's organization.
Chris- When I surf around the web and look at the lawsuits and number of complaints that involve the Yeager system it leads me think that at leat at the higher levels, that system has priorities other than the support of the newest distributor. The ratio of income from tools verses Quixtar is, or at a minimum has been, inverted. It certainly doesn't seem to fall into line with the Quixtar "guideline" as originally put forth by Rich DeVos that no more than 20% of a distributor's net income come from the tool/support side of the business.
But I recognise that the Yeager system is vary fragmented, with a great deal of variety in how it is applied. So it is unfair and incorrect for me to assume, and then state, that ALL Yeager inspired or related systems are corrupt. And I must apologise for incorrectly suggesting that such is the case. Sorry.
I agree the tools and system are vital to the success of these types of businesses, and endorse them to all downline serious about growing. But I also caution them to be realistic and responsible in how, and to what extent, they chose to participate.
The stat x% don't renew isn't pertinent to evaluating the profitability. What's meaningful is % of volume turnover and % of volume creation.
For example, it's meaningless to say that of the 500,000 IBO that signed up this year, after 4 years, only 50,000 IBO are left. Why? If those 450,000 IBO contribute 0 PV, who give a rip if they don't renew. If those 450,000 IBO doesn't put one minute into the business, why would it be pertinent they don't renew?
Now, if you were to say that 450,000 IBO lost $5k each year, that's a different story.
I'm curious as to why you provided a link to the 1979 FTC case, yet don't quote the court opinion.
For the allegation of misrepresentation on the ease of sponsoring, the complaint counsel used the stat that 3 out of 4 IBO don't sponsor anyone. The court opinion: this has little to do with ease of recruiting because there has been no showing that all distributors are interested in recruiting.
The other finding of facts from that proceeding: over a 16 years period, of all the direct distributors that failed to requalify as Direct Distributors, 75% were still Amway distributors. That's 25% non-renewal over 16 years. That translate to an annual non-renewal rate of less than 2%. Why is this significant--because it show that those who had generated volume are very unlikely to quit.
If one is to do like-kind comparison, then one must decide on a pertinent yardstick and then use that yardstick to measure.
For example, net income/hour put in is higher than some number.
As for the question: why are so few successful? That's poorly formed. The correctly formed question should be what are the percentage of those putting in the effort who had achieved their financial goal?
Thanks for the reply spiler. Well put.
--
Jen, I wish I was able to phrase my thoughts like you. I have been trying to say the same thing about using statistics in several posts. You summed it up in one quick comment :)
I'm seconding Chris comment with regard to how the stat 90% business failed within 5 years are used. After stating this stat, the presenter will then list the reason given by SBA as reasons for the failure. These are
1:Lack of experience
2:Insufficient capital (money)
3:Poor location
4:Poor inventory management
5:Over-investment in fixed assets
6:Poor credit arrangements
7:Personal use of business funds
8:Unexpected growth
Then the presenter will go on to explain why these reasons don't apply to Quixtar.
The #1 lack of experience is suppose to be addressed by the "system" and by the "mentoring system". The rest are addressed by the nature of MLM.
As for the critic claim Quixtar is POS due to that the stat 90% of IBO don't renew after 5 years, that only < 2% achieve Direct status, that less than 0.01% achieve Diamond status, the court opinion in the FTC case is that these stat are less a function of the poor business and more a function of the nature of the human involved in the business, namely most people are not interested in putting out the effort to achieving Direct/Diamond.
If the critic can show me the stat that 99% of those who put out the effort failed to achieve positive net income and/or Direct, let's talk.
So we are all agreed that a bad business opportunity with a system is far better than a bad business opportunity on its own.
I couldn't agree more. Either way, however, it's a bad business opportunity.
I think that all of your points are well articulated and thought out. I guess the problem arises when people presenting the plan throw out that number (failure rate) which, depending on how you translate that to yourself may or may not be accurate. Here's what I think the issue is:
When someone says this, and I decide to accept that at face value from the speaker, fine. Obviously, I'm a person who will believe the speaker, for whatever reason. I will decide to believe that social security is in trouble, a great deal of people will be dead or dead broke at 65, and I will also accept that here is something being offered for a solution to those problems for 10-15 hours per week.
Chris, I believe that you would agree that this takes more effort than 10-15 hours a week to be a financial success. Let's discount the life betterment aspect for now. Every plan I ever heard at every open, every seminar, every living room used the 10-15 hour a week model and either 6-4-2 or 9-4-3 plan. 10-15 hours a week, in my opinion is misleading. Once you're in, it changes to, "Well, treat it like a business, not a hobby" I NEVER ONCE heard a presenter (pearl,emerald,direct, under 1000's and even a diamond) say this would be more than 10-15 hours a week.
There has to be an element of deception here, and this is where we get back to the 95% of businesses fail thing. If the presenter was not completely forthcoming with what it takes to make a lot of $$$$, then what about the other stuff he said?
If this will work with effort, why the long spiel about business failures, and people being old and broke? Wouldn't people do this on the merits of the business itself?
Somewhere, the newbie was mislead, and it is to be expected that these numbers in this presentation become questioned, once the realization of the effort required to achieve a high pin level hits home.
I am having a tough time making my point here, and I apologize for the lengthy post. I would not dispute anything that any of you say in regards to the 95% failure stat. You all have good points.
Just a non-statistical perspective on the 95% business failure point. Hope I made at least a bit of sense ;0)
Spiler said: Rocket- oh please! There isn't any fear-mongering in any of the plans I've seen.
> I don't know which type of plan you have seen my friend, that’s how the dream building session works: (soft wording in open, hardcore when you move up)
Job:
Open: Trade time for money, depending on employer, no security, limit on income, some one else deciding ur income, no control.
Seminars + counseling: Job = Bad, Bad, Bad, employees are losers, they are broke, they are not man enough as their wives work for some one else. Education is stupid as grade A student teach grade B student how to work for grade C student. Social insecurity etc. etc.
Other Business + self employed: Yup, failure rate + your job own you.
Investment: U need money to make money.
So now, every thing else is kinda gone and the only thing left is Quixtar.
So that’s what I'll call mongering.
- Ignite a dream, cars, freedom, money, palaces,
- Prove every thing else won't help it, instead a person will hardly make his living off other things e.g. JOB
- Give a vehicle to get those dreams and security, i.e. Quixtar.
And speaker works most of his time in 'dream building' than showing the business.
Chris,
again with the franchise ....
And Chris, you've said you tell prospects that there is 100% success "on the system".... c'mon, I've heard "95% failure in small business" line used right before "100% success using the system" is discussion. thats why it is there.
Yes, the system is corrupt if the plan is shown that you make money from moving Quixtar products "just like the Diamonds did" but the Diamonds make their majority of money from the tools. I was in Amway before people admitted there ws "some" profit from tools, not like they admit they get alot of money from tools.
Take the websites for example with TEAM... $24 a month(!!) to access schedules, pictures, and writing from the Orrin Woodward Axis of Evil and his Minions. If he's truly got 50K people, and say only 10% sign up to the website (a low number I am sure).... then 5000 people paying $24 a month(!!) to access information about the team that should be freely available. I know what it costs to setup a website, and even if he is paying someone to maintain the site.... he sure is getting alot of extra income from that approx $120K (or more) a month(!!)
C'mon, $24 a month, maybe a year, but even that would be excessive. It's things like that that put doubt in the validity of the whole "you need these tools...buy if from me" training.
Our upline in Amway told us to buy "plan tools"(whiteboard, easels, markers, etc) from the upline and not from Amway. Why? wouldn't I benefit more from buying it rom my own store and it being a genuine "business expense" and they get the PV/BV as well? or did they just want the profit?
Sorry to ramble, you know how we get going.
Sorry spiler, but AmQuix salesmen do not have residual income. It's a lie. And we can use the numbers to prove it.
We know that 50% of all IBO's quit in their first year, and that overall, Quixtar has a 67% turnover rate. This alone wouldn't mean there is no residual Quixtar income for diamonds, but let's dig deeper. Ask yourself, spiler, who is purchasing Quixtar products? IBO's? Members? Clients? Well, since the average IBO only has .2 member/client, that means there are 5 IBO's purchasing products for every member/client. This means that if both members/clients and IBO's order the same things every month, 83% of all Quixtar purchases are made by IBO's! And if 67% of these IBO's are quitting every year, how residual is a diamond's income again? Answer is not very, and he needs to keep working his group to maintain members and his tool income.
In addition, what are the major differences between the Yager system and the WWDB system? Are the major differences? What about TEAM/TOD? I am willing to bet that if people actually talked to one another and compared notes, they would see the systems were very similar. There have been IBO's from all systems here claiming theirs was the best and the fastest growing and all others were scams. Well, they all can't be right, but they all can be wrong, and I'm willing to bet they were all wrong.
Last, a big problem I have with Quixtar is the lack of numbers. Jen would like to know just how successful those who put in the work do? Well, don't we all? But we don't have those numbers, so the best we can do is work with the numbers we do have, extrapolate, and come to our own conclusions. And I've come to the conclusion that Quixtar, on whatever system, is a bad opportunity, and has a worse "failure rate" then the average 95% for all small businesses.
Dear apologists:
With all due respect to the detail and verbosity of your attempts to obfuscate the meanings of the numbers - the widely published IBO turnover, income averages, and "Pin" statistics are very easy to interperate. That you elect not to has no bearing on reality.
The fact that there are only about 4K Platinums in the US is very telling. 4K businesses averaging $25K in AmQuix compensation (not counting retail markup), some of which will have to be shared with downline. 4K out of 224K-500K "Active" distibutors (depending on whom you ask).
Apologist can claim that XX% of the above-referenced IBOs should never have been sponsored and have never "tried to build the business". How many? No-one knows for sure, but even if we throw out 75% percent of them we are still left with truly appalling statistics.
The only conclusion that someone can come to if they are honest with themselves is that, if even only one out of four people that become IBOs came in to "build the business", the new IBO still has a less-than 10% chance of becoming a "Platinum" distributor (which doesn't seem to be a worthwhile accomplishment anyway).
The posting by one apologist supports this conclusion when mentioning the effort needed to build the "business". Haven't any of you noticed that the numbers of people that you say that you need under you to be Platinum MATCHES THE RATIO OF PLATINUMS TO NON-PLATINUMS? Is that a coincidence? Of course not! That is the harsh reality of the math behind this so-called "business".
The reality of this massive, on-going fraud is that intellegent, hard-working, well-meaning, decent people are going to enter in to an endeavour that has LESS of a chance of providing them with the means to meet their economic goals than a conventional business. The near-static IBO growth numbers re-inforce that this is simply a "people churn" that rewards those who are willing to accept that the vast majority of the the IBOs beneath them will accomplish almost nothing.
And, by the way - every, and I mean every, Open that I attended mentioned the "95% failure" hoax.
dmm,
You may have missed this before, but 75% quit in their first year. 50% of the whole distributor force quits _each_ year.
Sorry I got the numbers wrong. Been working with a lot of numbers at my JOB, and it's been quite confusing.
Rocket wrote: "Every plan I ever heard at every open, every seminar, every living room used the 10-15 hour a week model and either 6-4-2 or 9-4-3 plan. 10-15 hours a week, in my opinion is misleading"
I will agree with you to a certain extent. I do not quote how many hours one would need to invest to achieve that result because how would I know how many hours it would take that person? So in a way it is misleading.
I believe that it is possible to achieve that goal with that amount of weekly time, but the only way to back up that claim would be to use someone as an example who invested that time and achieved that goal. Or to use a statistic from polling a group of IBO's or something of that matter.
For the record, I don't invest more than 15 "activity" hours per week average into my business, and it is working just fine for me. But to be fair, if you include "educational" hours then I am over 15 each week. I take pride in my education and spend a couple hours each day reading and listening to tapes, and I attend events every chance I get.
The pro-argument for 15 hours per week, is that if you are working the biz nights, after a day job, then you can be effective in just a couple of hours each night. I think the 15 hours statement is to illustrate activity hours involved. In this case, it is pretty realistic in my view.
If you add educational hours to the picture, or significant out of town groups, then the hours go up. So maybe if they clarified themselves and said "activity" hours then it would not be misleading to you.
--
Roger wrote: "And Chris, you've said you tell prospects that there is 100% success 'on the system'"
Do I tell my prospects this? If I wrote that somewhere in these comments that I tell my prospects this, then I apologize and will admit that I was incorrect. I do not believe that. If you can provide me with a place where I wrote that, it would be great. I am assuming that something I wrote is being taken out of context, but I will admit to it being wrong if you can truly point to me where I said that.
Otherwise, please take that back and quote me correctly in context. One of us is wrong with this quote.
--
DMM wrote: "Sorry spiler, but AmQuix salesmen do not have residual income."
Well I am not an AmQuix salesman, but I AM a Quixtar-Affiliated IBO and I make residual income. So doesn't that prove you wrong?
Ok, for debating purposes we would need to clarify a couple of things.
1) What is the definition of "residual" income we are using. Because if I don't work in December, I still get paid. Isn't that residual?
2) Are you suggesting that since not ALL Quixtar-IBO's earn residual income, that some don't? Or are you just generalizing and saying that the "average" Quixtar-IBO doesn't. In that case, what guidelines are you using to consider the average IBO?
I would hope that you were only including IBO's that actually present the opportunity consistently and do sales consistently. Otherwise there is no expected residual income in the first place.
DMM wrote: "And if 67% of these IBO's are quitting every year, how residual is a diamond's income again? Answer is not very, and he needs to keep working his group to maintain members and his tool income"
So if a Diamond has Platinum+ legs where the IBOs are generating 5 figures from their businesses, you don't think these IBOs has enough vested interest to optimize growth and stability and manage their turnover rates?
If a Diamond is not a Founders Diamond, then they did not have a stable business to begin with, but if they are founders, then they likely have strong growing legs that can be managed at the Platinum level.
Let's even just look at my business as an example. My Diamond does not do, or have to do anything in my business, and it grows every month. I am responsible for the growth of my business, and if it starts declining, then I am going to pick up the pace and focus more on securing it. This is not my Diamonds responsibility.
So if you are seeing a Diamond work, it is usually moving on to the next achievement level, mentoring leaders, and working on the vision, leadership and direction of the team. All things the Diamond would do whether the business was growing or declining, unless the Diamond was ready to retire from the leadership position they have.
DMM wrote: "the best we can do is work with the numbers we do have, extrapolate, and come to our own conclusions."
I have looked at many of the same numbers you have, and I have come to opposite conclusions. I think that the conclusions that many of the critics come to are unrealistic. They purposely spin the numbers to have a negative view. I would venture to say that many IBO's just spin them to have positive view as well.
But realistically, there are some simple figures that critics take way out of hand. They make statements like "the average IBO is losing money", but then they back it up by saying, avg IBO=$115/mo, avg system costs=$200/mo. = Losing Money!
You can't be serious! To believe this, you would have to assume that EVERY "active" IBO is plugged into the system and investing that much. When pro/anti views alike would all agree that this is not happening. I have heard "high" statistics that say 40% of active IBO's are plugged into the system, but a reasonable estimate would be more like 15%.
So why wouldn't critics figure that into their statistic? Because it wouldn't make the opportunity look as bad. There are many statistics like this that are taken way out of context. I would say it is just as reasonable to estimate that the avg. IBO is actually making money after expenses!
--
Mike,
Does every IBO start up their business with intention to go Platinum? Of course not. Many have intentions to just make a few hundred dollars extra per month, or to support a family member, or to join a community of positive people, and many other reasons.
There are also many that join to reach levels far beyond Platinum. Every community has turnover rates each year, some larger than others. As an IBO it is very easy to quit because of the minimal investment needed. $45 is equivalent to a cheap dinner out for a married couple. No significant loss.
In a traditional business the investment is much higher, so the work ethic and effort is much higher and so people are much less likely to quit. But there is still a great chance for failure in traditional business even after amazing work effort put in.
I would say that if you compared work effort and a traditional business owner and IBO both had the same effort, that the chances for failure would be much, much higher as a traditional business owner. This is a very reasonable assumption.
So what it comes down to is those who put in the effort and those who don't. Do all IBO's who put the necessary effort into Quixtar succeed? Of course not. But their chances for success in my opinion are much higher than traditional biz, and the opportunity as an IBO is much, much easier than starting traditional biz. That is obvious. So of the 2 choices, I choose IBO any day.
You may had missed this before, but the 50% non-renewal _each_ year include the 75% non-renewal within the first year. That imply only a 25% non-renewal after the first year.
Dear Mike:
Learn math. That you elect not to has no bearing on the extrapolation.
Heck, learn reading comprehension. The platinum earning $25k from AmQuix already included sharing out the bonuses downline.
What conclusion can you draw with 1 out of 4 IBO care about sponsoring, that only 1 out of 50 achieved Platinum??? Nothing. Because none of the stat contains any data to correlate income to effort.
Only a simpleton would think that the mere fact of being in business would equate to income level without acknowledging the effort required.
If the business is truly appalling, the churning will occur at all level. One should expect to see the same churning at the Platinum level. Do you see 50% of platinum quitting each year? Do you see 50% of 4,000 PV quitting each year? Do you see 50% of 1,000 PV quitting each year?
Go learn math.
"You may had missed this before, but the 50% non-renewal _each_ year include the 75% non-renewal within the first year. That imply only a 25% non-renewal after the first year."
Who is this addressed to Jen?
I didn't miss it. I discuss it on my site. According to the FTC 75% of new distributors quit in thier first year and 25% each year thereafter. Quite apart from that statistic (although largely comprised of those included in it) 50% of all the distributors quit each year.
See, it's a different population for each stat. The 75% refers to first year distriubutors. The 50% refers to _all_ distributors.
"The idea that only 1/3,000 make Diamond, or 1/500 reach Platinum has nothing to do with the chances for success, but rather the structure of the business. Yes, it takes a couple hundred distributors to support a Platinum- but this isn't a finite "pie" we're cutting up. If you work hard and expand the pie by 2-300 members, you're a Platinum. It's 100%, every time."
And that's why these schemes are illegal unless the majority of the money is coming from non-participants in the scheme. Because of the structure of the business, 100% of the time, if the only way to make a net profit is to recruit then the vast majority of participants will always lose money - guaranteed.
Residual income as a whole is a myth, in my opinion. Even performers and writers who earn residual checks don't have true residual income. Why? Because someone has to do the work for them. If nobody is watching, listening or reading their material, will they receive their residual checks? Nope. Same way with AmQuix, if nobody in the downline is selling/buying, will the upline receive a check? Nope. Therefore, someone still has to do the work.
And with AmQuix, we know that people's downlines are continually crumbling and being rebuilt all the time. We can look at the percentage of quitters and the fact that in 30 years, the number of overall active IBO's per year has remained relatively equal. And we also know that each diamond is out there hawking the tools and keeping his downline motivated to do the work. So, the question is, what would happen if the diamond truly stopped and retired?
My guess is someone else would pick up the slack and the lucrative tool business, but would the diamond still be getting the big Quix bucks? First, he wouldn't be getting the tool money, and second, I believe the diamonds organization would eventually crumble to the point of not being able to be rebuilt, because the diamond himself isn't there rebuilding all the time. Therefore, his income level would eventually shrink, and maybe end altogether. And there are real world examples of this, as there are former diamonds out there no longer with the company. Now, ask yourself, if they truly had residual potential, why would they quit?
DMM wrote: "if they truly had residual potential, why would they quit?"
Why have some of them just gone and started up similar companies with residual income opportunity if they do not believe in residual income.
I don't mind your view on residual income, I just disagree with it. I do believe it exists. Nothing is guaranteed in life, not even life itself. But there are people earning residual income, and for the sake of argument, either it exists or not. If you think it doesn't exist, then let's call it whatever you want.
What is it called when I don't have to do any work in my business, but I still get paid that month? Or that Year? Or for 5 years? We can call that on-going income or whatever. You tell me.
--
I was doing some thinking about this 95% stat, and I realized that I think that I have heard this statistic brought up several times from IBO's defending their business when critics try to say that most IBO's will fail. Then the IBO points out how most businesses fail, so should they just not start up a business?
This bothers me when critics have this view, because first of all they never differentiate quitting and failing. They just lump it all into failing. So if an IBO registers and then quits, it is assumed that he fails. Even if he never tried in the first place. I just don't think that is a reasonable analysis.
Like FitzPatrick in his recent myth of MLM income report, there are so many flaws in what he says, but I bet we don't hear one critic pick his article apart and point out where things just don't make sense. Why won't critics do this? Because it defeats their cause of presenting flaws to Quixtar. Even if the flaws aren't accurate at least they make the opportunity look worse.
All that I know is that after reading that report, there are plenty of places for a logical person to disagree with FitzPatricks findings, but the critics won't do it. But then the critics can't understand why I don't see eye to eye with them on several issues. But the truth is that many are just close minded to the positive views towards Quixtar. This goes both ways of course.
Like FitzPatrick gives these companies a hard time for using "active" standards for average incomes, but I give these same companies a hard time for being too light in their "active" standards.
He also tries to point out a 99% failure rate, which is not true, and he does not back himself up with proof. He claims the companies are misleading when his report is misleading as well.
Anyways, there are too many things in that report that were just spun with a negative perspective, and so I am surprised I even bothered to read it. But being that I am open minded, I find myself doing things like that.
Chris:
Your mind isn't open, it is washed in SA8 detergent and rinsed in XS!
The only thing open on you is your wallet and Small Business loans--both of which are sending one way payments to the good folks at AmScam, QuickRich, or whatever!
"The idea that the structure of the business is such that one can realize significant income without the need to even recruit, that one can reach Platinum without recruiting, is that the business is not a gamble, keyed on chance, but rather an endeavor, keyed on effort."
And that's why these schemes are legal. Money will be made. Guaranteed.
What a treat- we have some severely math-challenged people here, that's for sure! And even more who fail to really understand the business. It's amazing to me that Quixtar/Amway can even continue to exist as a growing multi-billion dollar company. given the analysis we see here!
An average Platinum has about 150 people signed up at any given time in his organization, but only about 25 could really be called "active." These people tend to stay in for years, even decades while the other 125 do cycle through, some staying for a couple weeks, some for a couple years. How fast do employees at a McDonalds or Burger King last? Turn over rates in many industries are as high or higher than Quixtar. That doesn't keep them from growing, or reflect badly on them. The same is true of Quixtar. In my experience most people simply don't understand what success requires, in any medium, and will continue to take the path of least resistance and average reward. So what? Some want, and get, much more. Which category do you fit in?
Residual or ongoing income is more easily found in this industry than any other, but requires you to set your business up with that in mind. Do you train your people to take initiative, be responsible, and think long term? Or do you control them from the top down, desire to keep yourself the center of attention, etc. Do you work with those who want it, of push those that don't? It makes a huge difference down the road in terms of the stability of your business, and the possibility of true residual income.
My biggest surprise in checking the web after some time away is the number of people who are truly ignorant about the business, or were misled, etc. Or maybe the same old group is still complaining about not getting something for nothing?
Spiler
McDonalds and Burger King make money, even if the people doing the work don't. They have money coming in from a consumer.
Not unlike the tool kingpins, who make more off those than product.
At least the employees at McDonalds and Burger King do make a profit by trading time for dollars.
Unlike the overwhelming majority of IBO's
Fast Food employees who put in the same amount of time into their business as IBO's do will make a heck of a lot more than $115.00 a month.
That's not even new math. Those are just facts.
Rocket, where did you get this gem from:
"Fast Food employees who put in the same amount of time into their business as IBO's do will make a heck of a lot more than $115.00 a month."
Same amount of time. Hmmm. And you know what the average amount of time an IBO put into his business??
I would like to see a Fast Food employees put in 0.2 hours and get paid $115.
Jen, I'll take that comment seriously when you can even come close to verifying that little "gem" of yours.
0.2 hrs? Jeez, even 1 tape is an hour. Who says that is the average?
Who indeed
PS, at lest they wouldm't lose money doing your little 0.2 hrs.
Unlike an Amway dude or dudette who's fully plugged in.
Rocket,
If I buy a $6 CD did I "lose" money?
If I decide to go back to school to get education to become a chiropractor and open my own firm, do I put the educational costs in the loss category of my P&L?
If halfway through my education I decide to become a Dentist instead, did I just "lose" money?
Rocket, do you really think that the average IBO even goes as far as listening to a one hour tape? If you do, how far do you think the average IBO goes with his/her business?
Even if they listened to that tape, it is much more likely that an IBO gave them that tape, and that they didn't purchase it.
I would say that the average IBO doesn't get to a point where they invest in their business beyond the initial registration.
I would say that the average "active" IBO is not "plugged into the system" and is not investing anything in their business beyond registration.
Based on what I have seen, those are my guesses.
Chris said on Nov 1st:
So for instance, I can say that 100% of the people in my organization who are plugged into the system, showing 15 plans per month consistently, and are plugged into a successful mentor for guidance as they build their business are having success. This is based on my own personal experience. This is factually true in my organization.
I can also say that I have not personally met anyone who has ever succeeded without the system. And that could be true for me, so that claim would be accurate.
Here is the problem I have. It is a people business, which means that sometimes people get it wrong. So just like the game of telephone, when things get repeated, vital information will often be left out.
So a new IBO could hear my statement above and when they repeat it, they might leave out the "personally met" portion of my statement and say "100% of the people who didn't plug into they system didn't succeed. And they would think they were repeating what their upline told them and that they were right. But that statement would not be factual.
and I say: okay Chris, I mis-quoted you, you said effectively that 100% of the people in your organization who have been on the system have succeeded and 100% of the people not on the system fail. So, you did not say 100% of ALL IBOs succeed on the system, just yours?
Roger, thanks for taking the time to dig up the quote you were referring to. Unfortunately it is still misunderstood. Let me clarify. After re-reading my comments you wrote:
"...you said effectively that 100% of the people in your organization who have been on the system have succeeded and 100% of the people not on the system fail."
No I did not say that. Being on the "system" will not guarantee success. Many who are plugged into the system are doing nothing. I was speaking from personal experience only and I mentioned many other qualification for those succeeding than just being plugged into the system. Re-read it again to see what I mean.
The second portion of your analysis was also incorrect. In fact, in my quote I explained how people might misunderstand that just like you did. I even gave an example of it.
I never said that 100% of people not on the system fail. I simply said that I have never personally met someone who has had significant success without the system.
I think it is possible, and I will always let a new IBO try if they want to do it that way. I just haven't seen one make it. Of course we all have different definitions of success, but that is another story.
Okay, Jen
Where's the data on the percentage of Quixtar products and tools that are sold to non-IBOs?
I know where you can find some.
"I would like to see a Fast Food employees put in 0.2 hours and get paid $115."
Oh boy. More math problems.
Here is the burn: in all of the 'training' provided to IBOs, no one has come forward and said that they are taught how to keep their books. That is: sign up costs + meetings costs + 'training' materials costs + voicemail/email/webpage etc. costs + gas = 'investment' in the business. Check at the end of the month = 'income' or 'return.'
'Investment' vs. 'Income or return'.
BTW, this is a TOTAL number, not a month by month number.
People invest in their businesses. But, regular businesses have tangible assets to show for them above and beyond an easel, samples and a box full of 'training' materials...such as inventory (which IBOs are not supposed to have - 'stocking'), equipment and commercial locations.
Add into that the 'time' it takes to run the business. 'Showing the Plan' + 'Meetings and seminars' + 'travel' + 'training' + 'time spent creeping around bookstores' = 'time invested.'
'Time invested' vs. 'Income or Return'.
Again, TOTAL. Not .2 hrs for $115.
Learn math, indeed.
It's junk like that which makes me, and a lot of others, roll our eyes. It's the same kind of junk that makes 'other' people's eyes glaze over - and that's why the 'business' is still around.
Oh,
But I CAN show you fast food employees that work 23 hours and make $115.
That would be ALL OF THEM.
How many IBOs can say the same?
Okay, lawDawg
Where's the data on the percentage of dentist products and tools that are sold to non-dentist?
Oh Porkchopjim,
How many IBO put in 23 hours and make $115?
A lot of them.
Now riddle me this: how many burger flipper made $115 when they don't show up to work?
Oh boy, more math.
Again, AVERAGE 0 .2 hrs for $115 AVERAGE monthly revenue.
Learn math, indeed.
It's junk like that which makes me, and a lot of others, roll our eyes. It's the same kind of junk that makes 'other' people's eyes glaze over.
"How many IBO put in 23 hours and make $115? A lot of them."
Well, you can't argue with figures like that!
"Now riddle me this: how many burger flipper made $115 when they don't show up to work?"
ZOOOM! Missed my point, completely.
"Again, AVERAGE 0 .2 hrs for $115 AVERAGE monthly revenue."
So, is it 2-5 hrs a week, or only .2 hrs per month?
"...one can reach Platinum without recruiting..."
Do they have a special weekend get-together for those folks? I bet that's a pretty empty room. Does buying a downline count as 'not recruiting'? If part of the 'system' is showing the plan, how do these miracle workers get to Platinum without being on the system? Is the system wrong?
Not just math, but LOGIC, too!! Oh, my!
"And that's why these schemes are legal."
Schemes, yes! Legal???
Sure Pork,
With that keen logic of your, talking to a blind dog would be more intectually rewarding.
Only because a blind dog will listen, and not question.
I think Porkchop understands the basic concept of effort being rewarded in a monetary sense, not emotional. A business is there to make you money, not to make you feel good, although that would be a nice side benefit.
In any event, pretty tough to be happy with your own business if its not doing what it's intended to do............create an income.
Jen,
you either can't or won't see the point he's making. They may very well be making $115- per month. Subtract from that $6 per week for weekly tape ($24 per month). Subtract from that the monthly seminar ($32 per month). Subtract from that 1 open meeting per week ($20 per mont or $40 per couple). Subtract from that 3 yearly seminars (360/12=$30 per month for one or $720 per couple or $60 per month). That's not including other costs like travel, hotels, baby sitters, meals, Ad Packs, voice mail, phone, additional leadership meetings/tapes/functions and reach orders.
It's easy to see that the average IBO doesn't make money, they lose it.
Love your logic there, Kendall.
Wow, you means to tell me that 800,000 IBO paid $6 per week for weekly tape???
That 800,000 IBO attended monthly seminar???
That 800,000 IBO paid for open meeting???
That 800,000 IBO paid for 3 yearly seminars???
Is that what an "average" IBO do????
It's easy to see the average critic haven't a clue what logic is.
I don't think it's the critics who fail to grasp the concept of logic.
Jen, I'm sure that you're aware that it takes effort to build your business. I'm sure you're also aware that at least for the first while, you pay out a lot more than you bring in towards the system, if you are "plugged in." I think there may have been one dude that went diamond with phone plans at one point, but I could be mistaken.
The problem is after the first while, people are usually dead or dead broke at 1000 PV instead of at the ripe old age of 65, due to the very system that was to set them free.
It is difficult to retail, because everyone except Chris agrees that the prices are too high, so I don't even want to hear again that someone can sucessfully retail, and I'll tell you why:
In my definition of sucessful retailing, you move a number of products in an efficient manner, with the end result being you making money which is adequete compensation for your efforts. Spending 20 minutes in driving to deliver a bottle of shampoo and making 80 cents is NOT a successful venture.
I think IBO's confuse that with believing that they are successful by having a few products bought through them a month, likely by sympathetic or "easy touch" relatives. Again, because the prices stink in comparison to most stores.
Moving product is the name of the game, no? Or is it moving tools? Because if its moving product, you lose before you even start. If it's moving tools, there are even bigger problems.
If there are no outside customers, then mlm becomes illegal pyramid.
Rule 70% is there.
See Rule # 4.22, especially 4.22.2, where an IBO MUST retail or get no bonus. If IBO fails to retail month after month, IBO ship gone.
There are some other good rules, 8.3.7 like NOT telling prospects that Quixtar can be done as a wholesale club. (Which was said in EVERY open I saw in Toronto, and I have recording of plan, soon to be streamed online and ah yes, and sent to Quixtar as a further proof)
I saw these two rules were violated big time. I complained Quixtar. NOTHING happened. Guy names 'Johnson' called from Q Canada business relation department and that’s that.
I'm also studying, reviewing and preparing a detailed report sent to Q the corp, rep in assembly and some authorities about the Quixtar rules violated. Quixtar OWN rules.
Man, more I read them, it’s not that bad. But what the hell was that pyramid I was in? Oh yeah that's right, same company, Beacon of ethics, leader of free enterprise, example of integrity and principles, Quixtar!
And yes, before some one say that I just had a unique, isolated experience which no body had, these rules were violated at many many places in EDC Shivaram Kumar’s group. In tapes Kumar’s often says, "This business is NOT a product's business". That’s right! He said that, its on BWW tapes. An instance OTOMH was “sure our products are great, but this business is not about products" EDC saying that....
Now I am quoting an EDC, any one out there who says you just had a bad experience, name a group where these rules are obeyed. Go upto EDC. Not just some platinum etc.
You're clueless rocket.
If you're going to discuss "plugged in IBO" expenses, then discuss "plugged in IBO" income. You got that data???
If you're going to discuss "average income of ALL IBO", then discuss average expense of ALL IBO. You got that data????
What's clueless--trying to mix non-related data. It's asinine to use "estimated plug-in IBO" and "average income of all IBO".
Everyone agree the price is too high??? That gem came from where? Ahhhh, from all the critics. The critics is "everybody"???? Have you even bother talking to the general public?
Jen, the average income of an IBO is $115.00/month. How many are plugged in? I don't know. Enough for people in higher levels to make the majority of their income through the tapes, books, and seminars. No? Read the lawsuit involving Randy Haugen. It's all there.
As far as the data you think I should have, you're the one defending it, you should know what the average IBO spends per month, plugged in. It's been listed numersous times in these discussions. Check out the archieves or Scott Larsen's site.
BUT....the average income is $115.00/month. Name a "real" business that can lay that particular claim to fame. Even the average McDonald's employee does better than that. AND the only expenses they incur are possibly uniform fees (I've heard,can't confirm) and travel to and from work. When they walk away from working at McDonald's, they are not in the hole as many, many Amway folks are.
Don't believe that? You sound too intelligent to be that stupid, but all you have to do is read MOD, or any feedback on Scott Larsen's website.
I'm sorry Jen. About 6 weeks ago I had 3 people send me price lists. They are too high to be competitive. Tell you what. I'll send you a list of things I'll be picking up for the next month, and you send me a cost quote, along with the cost of shipping. If you are truly cheaper, you have got yourself a customer. I'm serious. But I know that you will be unable to do that. But you still buy these products at an inflated price do you? And you say I'm the one who's clueless?
System expenses aside, the products are non-competitive. I don't think you'll be successful. I know of ZERO Quixtar only diamonds who were never in Amway. Perhaps you could point one out?
And that, is precisely my point.
Mo, can you elaborate a little on the following:
"An instance OTOMH was “sure our products are great, but this business is not about products" EDC saying that...."
> What was the full context of that quote? What does he say the business is about?
"See Rule # 4.22, especially 4.22.2, where an IBO MUST retail or get no bonus. If IBO fails to retail month after month, IBO ship gone."
> Where does it say that they take away the IBO ship for not following this rule? The way I read it, it says that in order to get paid a bonus on downline volume they need to meet the member/client requirement.
Quixtar automatically won't send you your bonus if you don't meet this. They can still get paid every month though whether or not they retail. This is simply the standard to get paid on downline volume.
I am not trying to back up these other IBO's, but I am trying to understand what they did that was wrong, so that I don't make similar mistakes.
We should also take into account that the rules have been updated to reflect changes, and so sometimes you may have heard something that was before the exact rule on it existed. Just something to consider.
Also, if you have experienced problems in not having the rules properly told to you or you were not shown them, then that problem is with your sponsor and upline qualified Platinum. It was their responsibility, and if it did not happen, then they fell short.
As far as someone speaking in general to an audience, there is a lot that can be taken out of context. Plus we all make mistakes. If they made a mistake, and it was presented to them, they might apologize and correct it.
I know that my upline Diamond used the phrase "wholesale buying club", but corrected himself recently and made sure people understtod the member/client volume requirement and sales minimums.
If they are unwilling to correct something, then it might be best to bring it to Q's attention so that they can resolve the matter.
What do you think proper punishment should be for someone who used a term that they were not supposed to use? Should they be told not to use it again from this point on? What do you think is realistic?
Do you think that IBO's should be severely punished when making verbal mistakes at hotel opens and seminars? What if they correct themselves and don't make that mistake again?
--
Rocket, please clarify this for Jen:
"...you should know what the average IBO spends per month, plugged in."
Do you mean:
!) Out of all IBO's, what is the average they each spend on tools, or...
2) Out of all the IBO's who spend money on tools, what is the average they each spend?
I think that you guys are just misunderstanding eachother. But either way, Scott's site or not, there is no current statistics that would give us these figures.
You wrote: "Jen, the average income of an IBO is $115.00/month. How many are plugged in? I don't know."
What is your guess? I hear many critics say exactly what Jen is talking about. They try to say the average IBO is losing money because avg active IBO makes $1400/yr, but avg tool cost = $2000+/yr, so avg IBO is losing money.
But this comparison compares to totally different statistics, and only one is an approved stat, the other is speculation.
So for you Rocket, and all the other critics, my question is this:
"What is a reasonable estimate of the total percentage of "active" IBO's that are plugged into the system an average of $150/mo?"
10%? 20%, 30% or what? Then you can do some speculation and number crunching and you will realize that the average "active" IBO is probably MAKING money after expenses!
Rocket wrote: "....the average income is $115.00/month. Name a "real" business that can lay that particular claim to fame. Even the average McDonald's employee does better than that."
Are you suggesting that McDonald's employees are even in the same comparison as business owners? What is the income potential for a McDonalds Employee? How about tax benefits? etc...
Wrong comparison. How about comparing IBO plan with other businesses, not employee opportunities.
What other "real" business do you know that the average person can start for $40 and make $1400/yr?
Rocket, I have no problem retailing products. Neither does anyone that I know of in my group. I have plenty of happy customers. The only people I have ever heard say the prices are too high are critics on here, and once a lady said something at a meeting as a question to a Diamond. He answered her question and she is now currently a member.
It is fine for you to think the prices are too high. Nobody has a problem with that. It is also fine for me to think the prices are fair. Why do you have a problem with me on this. Why do people shop at Nordstroms when J.C. Penny is so much less? Why are grocery stores packed all day long when a Costco is right down the street? Why doesn't everybody shop there!
Because people pay the price that they think is fair for the products. I think it would be good to get perspective from your buddy QBlog on this issue. He wrote an entire post about it. You can read the whole post here:
http://tinyurl.com/4hb8u
TO the best I can find, my wife has not met the 'retail sales" rules every month. She has not sold to 10 customers (doesn't even have that many), has not sold at least 50PV or $100 to any number of retail customers (clients, members) each month, and yet has gotten a "bonus" each month. She has not satisfied the 70% rule every month. her biggest months and bonus %ages have been on months that she bought $1400 of her own stuff and had no downline retail sales and maybe $100 or so of downline IBO purchases.
C'mon, according to the plan presented at opens, you buy your 100PV (or $200) for yourself from your own store and you get a 3% bonus. WRONG. you should get nothing according to the rules, or am I readign them tht wrong?
>"'What is a reasonable estimate of the total percentage of "active" IBO's that are plugged into the system an average of $150/mo?'
10%? 20%, 30% or what? Then you can do some speculation and number crunching and you will realize that the average "active" IBO is probably MAKING money after expenses!"
Chris, this kind of proves the point we have been trying to make, and doesn't do much for the system advocates. What I read above is that only if you count the active IBOs who are ON THE SYSTEM as a small percentage do ALL average IBOs make money! But I thougt the 'system' was necessary for success? Apparently not by your thinking. The business as a whole is only a success if you minimalize the costs of the 'system.'
Chris: "I simply said that I have never personally met someone who has had significant success without the system."
Which is it? Since you refuse to back any of your statements with facts and figures, you find yourself twisting things until you contradict yourself. This has been a consistant criticism of IBO advocates from the start, and perfectly in line with this post.
>"Rocket wrote: '....the average income is $115.00/month. Name a "real" business that can lay that particular claim to fame. Even the average McDonald's employee does better than that.'
Are you suggesting that McDonald's employees are even in the same comparison as business owners? What is the income potential for a McDonalds Employee? How about tax benefits? etc..."
Well, Chris, you previously implied that IBOs have lesser business ethics than 'real' business owners.
"I would say that if you compared work effort and a traditional business owner and IBO both had the same effort, that the chances for failure would be much, much higher as a traditional business owner."
So, you own your 'business', but it's not as hard as a 'real' business. Could it be because it's not a 'real' business?
Chris, you are really starting to come apart at the seams - and I can't say I'm not kinda enjoying it.
You guys convinced. I'm totally wrong.
You have mastered the principles of wealth creation and know exactly what you're talking about.
You have applied the principle and enjoyed the fruit.
Tell, what's your net worth???????
Jen:
A 30/70 mix of bonds to stocks at a 10% annual return will beat the tar out of your "system". It is safe to say that my net worth, via this investment strategy, is far exceeding the performance of your so-called business.
But, if you want to get into numbers, let's do it -- you first. I am yet to see a Quixbot provide any real documentation of net worth or net income.
So, if you could do that, then I'll gladly play along.
Me too Jen
I will scan a copy of one of my pay stubs showing what I have made this year. Obviously I will cross out my evil employer's name, and any info which deviates from the actual issue, ie. how much $ I make.
I noticed that you aren't too interested in having me purchase products from you. Not that confident with your "business"? Or is it because I'm negative about an aspect of the "business"? In any event, why would you care how I feel about the "business" if the name of the game is moving products? Just charge my credit card every month and you never have to look at my ugly mug! You get PV and $$ and I get products delivered to my door for a comparable price, no?
Chris, my point about IBO's and McDonald's folks was precisely what was pointed out. The bottom line is McDonald's employees don't quit feeling scammed and pissed off about how they were seduced by the dark side so to speak. They pretty much knew what they were doing when they signed up. Nobody all of a sudden said, "Well to be successful at serving people you need to............which does cost $$, but consider it an investment into your future".
Go ahead there Jen. Show us all how successful you are, and then I'll put up.
PS Jen and Chris, I ask again:
I know of ZERO Quixtar only diamonds who were never in Amway. Perhaps you could point one out?
It's been 5 years now. What's up with the 2 to 5 year plan? I think a few zeros were forgotten there.
And a lot of zeros are still buying into it.
Send me scans and I'll post them for all to see.
Mo, can you elaborate a little on the following:
"An instance OTOMH was “sure our products are great, but this business is not about products" EDC saying that...."
Chris> What was the full context of that quote? What does he say the business is about?
Imran> Kumar was saying (in a BWW CD) that people are loyal to brand names like TIDE and CREST. I like brands that are not too popular like SA8 (Laughter). Our products are great. Besides, it’s not a product business. Sure, products are great, but this business is not about products.
He always preach to be excited about BWW, not about Quixtar.
Chris> Where does it say that they take away the IBO ship for not following this rule? The way I read it, it says that in order to get paid a bonus on downline volume they need to meet the member/client requirement.
Imran> http://tinyurl.com/48kpd
Chris> Also, if you have experienced problems in not having the rules properly told to you or you were not shown them, then that problem is with your sponsor and upline qualified Platinum. It was their responsibility, and if it did not happen, then they fell short.
Imran> Chris, What is the name of your diamond? Does you diamond teach his group all these rules?
You keep on insisting that my experience was a very rare and isolated one. I quoted an EDC. Give me a name of a pin, where these problems does not exist. Any pin, ok not EDC, just a diamond, any diamond. Problem that I saw was just not limited to upline platinum. No! It was in whole Gala LOS. MANY other groups IBOs WWDB, Internet, BWW reported the same problems. Similarities are unbelievable.
Point is, these problems are not limited to my upline platinum.
Chris> As far as someone speaking in general to an audience, there is a lot that can be taken out of context. Plus we all make mistakes. If they made a mistake, and it was presented to them, they might apologize and correct it.
Imran> How cute. Chris, you are very kind, don’t you? If some one lies repeatedly, (Heard directly speaking 2 tapes? Yeah corp knew decade ago) making ppl lose time and money in a closed pyramid scheme where retail sales are very rare and sell them expensive tools (some groups are lowering their prices coz of ‘negativity’) and run an illegal pyramid, all they have to do now is apologize and correct it? I had high hopes for you, just like u had high hopes for lawdawg. So according to you, Theft by Deception or misrepresenting business numbers is not a crime, just apologize and all is good?
Mistake is one thing, crime is another.
An IBO forgetting to put one less circle in STP is a mistake.
An EDC giving statements in tapes after tapes, seminar after seminars which violates Quixtar rules is NOT a mistake. Jody Vector said, “Who sells? If you know some one who does, let me know”. They are saying it from years, correction? Besides, these statements are implemented, not just a statements, and Quixtar is run like an Illegal pyramid. And in this illegal pyramid, ppl are harmed.
The least ethical way would be returning ppl their money and compensate for their time. But when dream is big enough, ethics don’t matter eh?
Chris> What do you think proper punishment should be for someone who used a term that they were not supposed to use? Should they be told not to use it again from this point on? What do you think is realistic?
Imran> No, its not realistic, you are making it sound too innocent, it’s not. Its not using a term. They misrepresent the whole opportunity, convincing ppl its no selling, Q is a very new company and it’s not amway, And so many lies. Besides, there is a responsibility of every business owner to be honest, yes or no? If they’re not, there are laws, yes or no?
Chris> Do you think that IBO's should be severely punished when making verbal mistakes at hotel opens and seminars? What if they correct themselves and don't make that mistake again?
Imran> Verbal mistake???? Is that the best you can do? Putting words in my mouth? When did I say it was a verbal mistake? It’s a term in Gala LOS, favourite of Shivaram Kumar and many of my uplines used it, “This business is not about products”. Many questions of mine were answered by it that it doesn’t matter if XYZ, This business is not about products.
This misrepresentation make a legal MLM an illegal pyramid. Severely punished? Who is ‘severely punishing’ any body?? All I am doing is collecting facts and giving it to authorities. I saw some illegal activity, which causes many ppl harm, and I’m reporting it to authority. I am not punishing any body, I can’t. I think you should be proud of me for being such a responsible citizen looking out for fellow humans. Think about it, I’m helping IBOs. Ok not the top kingpins, but the majority, the backbone of Quixtar.
And Chris, also, I am just reporting some facts to authorities. I did report to Quixtar/ Alticor, NOTHING happened. Many ppl advised me that nothing will happen, they were right! Quixtar and Kingpins are all one in this illegal pyramid covered by products.
Authorities will themselves decide whether these complains carry a weight or not, they just won't obey me blindly.
This is the message I want to give, if any one think they are scammed by Quixtar, put up a phone, or email.
Call / Mail Quixtar
Report BBB / Competition Bureau in Canada
Report Media to run documentaries on it
Write in newspaper.
Many ppl have not done it, maybe that’s why this scam is continuing? Its our responsibility as citizens to do something. Jut like we’ll report a robbery or mugging.
By the way Chris, thank you, you always awake the anger I have for Quixtar :-)
Jen,
Unless I missed something, no one was trying to sell one ‘wealth creation’ system over another. All I was pointing out was that yours doesn’t add up.
“Oh, yeah? Well, what about you?” - gifted rhetoric.
But, AGAIN, I’m not the one creeping around malls telling people that this is a ‘proven system’ that will get you ‘financial independence’...unless you aren’t, either. Probably you are one of those Platinums who didn’t recruit. How many of those are there again?
Now, MY proven financial system: lifetime guidance in the form of ‘rah-rah’ tapes and mandatory functions where I keep you up all night telling you what a good choice you made. All at a premium price. I'm pretty sure I'll be set!
How come it sounds goofy when I say it?
I'll show both my Quixtar income AND my J.O.B. income for our biggest year in Quixtar if Jen & Chris put up their 'proof'. Fact is, I NEEDED my J.O.B. to finance my 'business'.
I'll also produce tapes, letters, communications, etc. where 1) our upline Diamond (WWDB) actually said 1st year Diamond income was more in the $400,000 - $500,000 range than $250,000 (and since we weren't told about the income from tools, this leaves the listener with the assumption that this is QUIXTAR INCOME!! - you don't think this is fraud?); 2) if you don't want to sell, you don't have to; 3) a FOUNDER's EDC Diamond's schedule is NOT FREEDOM; 5) Was not asked, nor required to prove 70% or 10 Customer rule for a bonus check - and in fact told to 'not worry about that aspect' 4) Quixtar AND LOS were contacted about misrepresentation AND NO RESPONSE was received..
I could go on and on. And we were only fully active for about 2 years...I have personally APOLOGIZED to each and every person I could find that I prospected, whether or not they became IBOs, Prosumers, Clients or simply said no.
One other question I would like answered - since the Quixtar opportunity is presented as owning your very own 'small business' - I wonder if the SBA would grant the average Joe a small business loan to set themselves up to be a Quixtar IBO. After all, you need 1) a computer 2) Artistry Beauty supplies (kit or just samples) 3) Consumable samples for giveaways to entice sales 4) ICook cookware for demonstrations 5) eSpring & water tester for demos 6) Air Cleaner for demos....not to mention the educational 'system'. I think someone should try this, and see if they can get a loan for this 'business' start up.
Jen said:"Where's the data on the percentage of dentist products and tools that are sold to non-dentist?"
Don't be such a twit, Jen. You know Dentists aren't covered by MLM laws. That you would even ask this question tells me you don't understand what you are talking about.
Chris? Jen?...????
Waiting for your response guys.....
Its time for the numbers to talk; and for the
bullsh*t to walk....
Too many comments to respond to all at once. Here is a summary.
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Mo - The tiny url you sent me was to an old version of the rule. It has been updated and clarified.
4.22.2. If such an IBO fails in any month to make said Member/Client sales and/or to produce proof of making such sales, then he or she may not retain or will be denied his or her Performance Bonus that Month on downline volume. It is the obligation of the IBO to self-report as appropriate with their method of reporting, by the official deadlines published by the Corporation, in order to qualify for his or her Performance Bonus on downline volume. This Rule shall apply to an IBO until he or she attains the status of Platinum unless the IBO is a currently qualified Platinum or above.
The rules get updated frequently, and if a change is made, but a tape or cd released by a diamond is in violation of the new update, then what happens is the tape gets pulled and is no longer available.
So in situations like this, I think that is the best thing to do, even though that tape will still circulate, the diamond did the right thing and shouldn't be held for what the old tape says.
When I said "verbal statement" that was my choice of words, I was not putting words in your mouth. The speaker made a mistake and it was verbal. The speaker obviously did not do a good enough job reading the rules and regulations from Q.
I personally stay updated on the rules and present my plans and training accordingly but I will admit that most people don't. So we all try to get as close as we can, but it is difficult to be 100% all the time.
Mo, my statement about Platinums was simply letting you know that Quixtar holds the sponsor and Platinum accountable in teaching these things. At least that is what it says in the rules. This does not mean that it makes it right for a bigger pin to say this from a stage to an audience.
If I said that "the business is not about products, it's about people." Then am I lying? Should I be asked to clarify myself? Should I lose my business? Should I be suspended? Or was I simply trying to educate my organization on a perspective that they could have when building the business? Could it have been misinterpreted?
You want an LOS that has taught these rules? How about the Yager LOS? I have been to major functions where they have explained the 70% rule and the member/client volume rule. This was where I first heard about it. Since then it has been taught to me at many smaller monthly seminars and from my upline.
Mo, many of the things that you mentioned at the beginning of this discussion were things that probably were said incorrectly and should be corrected. I am glad that you are taking measures to get them corrected. But what should the punishment be? What would be fair? I mean, if I heard the same things you heard, I would have heard them a different way.
2 people can listen to the same tape and for one it could be life changing, and for the other it could be garbage. When a speaker says something like "it's not about products, it's about people", for some they could take it one way and for others another way.
I would have thought that meant to focus on the people side of the business. Which would never mean "do not sell". I would be selling to "people". It would just mean to reset my perspective from products to people. I think that is good advice.
As far as a diamond or anybody making false income claims, I do have a problem with that. If the average new diamond really makes $400k/yr from a total of all sources of income, then are they lying if they tell me that as a diamond I can really expect to make about $400k/yr? Of course not, but I do agree that without clarifying that not all of it would come from Quixtar, then it could be misleading and wrong.
My diamond has always taught me to underpromise and overdeliver. So the lower the income representations I give, the better. Our organization just uses the corporate approved statistics that Quixtar releases. Those are high enough to excite anybody without having to exxagerate income claims or anything of that matter.
When you hear an IBO say that Q is a new company, and is not A, why do you think they are lying. Q themselves uses this terminology and to say something other than what Q says would be against their rules.
Mo, I have no problem with you and your cause. In fact, I support it. I have told you that before. So go for it. I am just interested to hear why you believe what you do and where it came from. So I was asking for clarification. After getting clarification I still don't agree completely with you, but I can definitely understand why you are doing what you are doing :)
--
Roger - Your wife can receive checks on her own personal volume plus members and clients, but in order to receive checks on downline volume she would need to follow the member/client rule or else not get a check from Q.
--
PJ - Your points don't make much sense to me at all. I don't get how you came to those conclusions about me. If you are saying that $115 is success for an IBO, then I have seen success attained without the use of the system.
I have never personally met someone who has attained Platinum or above without the system. But I will agree that people generally have different definitions of the term "success".
PJ wrote: "Apparently not by your thinking. The business as a whole is only a success if you minimalize the costs of the 'system.'"
I didn't say that nor do I think that. I don't know how you came up with these remarks. You somehow are confused by what I wrote.
Why couldn't you answer the question about what percentage of active IBO's you think are plugged into the system. I would love for the critics reading this to give me an idea for what they think that percentage is.
PJ, why are you saying that I am contradicting myself here. I don't see how I contradicted myself at all. After reading my posts and your posts there is still no contradiction.
PJ wrote: "Well, Chris, you previously implied that IBOs have lesser business ethics than 'real' business owners."
When did I ever say this? I don't know how you interpret what I say, but I obviously never would have said that. That is something that a critic on here would say, not an advocate.
PJ wrote: "So, you own your 'business', but it's not as hard as a 'real' business. Could it be because it's not a 'real' business?"
I said that it was not as difficult as a traditional business. Both are "real". I also think that blogging for dollars is not as hard as a traditional business. But is that not "real"?
--
Disenchanted - what would your job and Q statements stand to prove? Why would we want to see them?
You wrote: "Fact is, I NEEDED my J.O.B. to finance my 'business'."
Is that a bad thing? If I could fund a business with personal income and not have to take family loans and bank loans, it would be a dream business. I don't get what you are trying to illustrate. Would you have rather taken out a loan from family or a bank to start your business? That is what most people do.
Disenchanted, it sounds like you have some great ammo for your anti-quixtar view. Why don't you share that with Qblog, and let him post it. I don't mind if you don't share it, but why haven't you shared it already?
About your last question, the answer is yes. When I first got started, I considered taking a loan and was almost ready to, but then I decided that it would be unduplicatable for most people and I wanted to show that you didn't need a loan to get started. I would only recommend a loan to someone I knew would take the business activity/mentorship seriously.
-BUMP-
Chris? Jen?...????
Waiting for your response guys.....
Its time for the numbers to talk; and for the
bullsh*t to walk....
DF, are you intentionally spamming the comment section? You have two identical posts here and three on the next one. I am guessing that you are just having errors when submitting.
Did you overlook the lengty response that I gave below your comment here?
Chris said:
Roger - Your wife can receive checks on her own personal volume plus members and clients, but in order to receive checks on downline volume she would need to follow the member/client rule or else not get a check from Q.
I ask:
So, does that mean her upline can't get any bonus from her "self consumption" and the money goes to the next upline if all of her sponsors downline only self consume? Isn't that then defeating the "buy from yoourself" she's being taught?
If everyone in her Team only buys from themselves, then each would only get their own bonus on their purchase, and the "platinum" upline would get all the "unclaimed" bonus from no one below meeting the requirements for group bonus.
But in THE PLAN, they are told you get the bonus from your downline and all they have to do is buy from themsleves as well.
Peace, Good luck, and don't forget family.
Roger, you raise an interesting point. It is true that the bonus money would roll up to the closest upline who has attained the necessary member/client volume to receive it. By no means would this automatically mean the Platinum though.
The interesting point you raise is how to decide what the newest IBO needs to understand before making a decision to start up their business, and show the plan, and train people, and make sales, etc.
I don't think it is totally necessary to explain all the details about the rules/regulations during the plan. This could potentially take hours and you don't even know if they are interested in the concept or not.
So the plan should be the plan, and should follow the Quixtar business rules when it is shown.
Then depending on the interest of the prospect, you begin to lead them to more and more information about the business. But obviously they cannot learn it all day one, or even week one. And it also depends on their personality type. Some are analytical, but most are not. So too much information at once will blow them away.
So a new IBO starts receiving information based on all these factors, and it is different for each IBO.
I was analytical, so the first night I read the business compendium and got most of my questions answered and learned all about the rules. So I could never say that I was never taught them. I thought that everyone would obviously read that like I did.
What I found is that most people didn't read it no matter how much I referred for them to do so. So was it my fault that they didn't learn every little detail? Or was I supposed to force them to sit down and read it?
So when you say your wife is taught to just shop from herself, are you suggesting that she has never been told about the member/client volume requirement?
I mean, I have received email, snail mail, and voicemail from the company about it. It has been featured in the what's new section and discussed from stage at major functions. There is a little "M" by your name in the LOS online if you have not met that requirment.
There is an entire section on the website about member/client volume requirement in the virtual office. And it is very very clear in the business rules and conduct.
But to further my point even more, your wife is part of TEAM and right on their website they have an article that clearly explains the member/client rule and the 70% rule. I also know a TEAM IBO and he says that it has been taught from stage at seminars several times. Is he lying?
Or is it that she knows about this rule, but just hasn't does any sales yet? See, it is her choice how to run her business, and if she doesn't have a downline yet, then maybe she doesn't see the need to create that volume. Maybe she is just excited about the community aspect and the education she is getting. I am not sure.
In case you don't have access to their site, you can always view it here.
http://tinyurl.com/68ljg
From what I have heard, Orrin Woodward has done a very good job in making sure that his team understands those rules. I am not in that organization, but this is what I have heard from a friend that is. So it might not be true. But there is much evidence leaning towards what my friend says.
Many LOS are very clear about this rule, and if they are not clear enough, it is in plain view for anybody who is analytical and wants to understand things about their business.
Chris, I think you are choosing to avoid the issue. I think its clear what the meaning to DF's posts are.
If you aren't daft, you'll understand, I mean it's not like its in Morse Code or anything.
You and I have had discussions similar to this as well, and you don't seem to answer the tough questions directed to you in a frank and simple manner.
Why wouldn't you and Jen show? You can block out your names, not a big whoop.
I've also noticed neither of you seem very comfortable with taking me up on my offer to show how "competitive" your prices are.
For goodness sakes, you'd have a retail customer if only you were able to show it is a better deal to buy this way, the way that your very business exists for.
I have publicly stated on this forum that I will buy my stuff from you two if it's reasonable after the cost of shipping. Tell you what, if it even MATCHES what I would pay anyways for stuff, that's good enough.
Would either of you be willing to take me up on that? If not, why not?
Chris said:
"I don't think it is totally necessary to explain all the details about the rules/regulations during the plan. This could potentially take hours and you don't even know if they are interested in the concept or not."
Chris, how long do you think it takes to explain to a new prospect that atleast 70% of your sales must be made to people outside of the Quixtar payplan (ie. non IBO's)? That might take maybe 10 seconds. Seeing it is the number one rule separating this from being an illegal pyramid scheme, you would think the 10 seconds it takes to explain it, would be tops on the list for IBO's when prospecting new recruits! Agree?
Chris said:
"From what I have heard, Orrin Woodward has done a very good job in making sure that his team understands those rules. I am not in that organization, but this is what I have heard from a friend that is. So it might not be true. But there is much evidence leaning towards what my friend says."
Ha Ha Ha! Do you know how many TOD/TEAM plans I have sat through, since I have many freinds and family sucked into this scheme? Well, let's just say a lot! And at every one they said you only had to buy from yourself and teach others to do the same. Selling was not required, just changing your shopping habbits. And because I am concerned for my family & friends, I always ask to make sure they are aware of the 70% rule, and I have yet to have one say they knew what it was. I know many TOD/TEAM members, and none of them have any member client volume!! It simply is not taught!
Chris:
The only I want to see are your numbers.
That's what I am asking for.
Rocket understands this, why can't you?
Let's see em!
(BUMP)
(BUMP)
-BUMP-
Chris? Jen?...????
Waiting for your response guys.....
Its time for the numbers to talk; and for the
bullsh*t to walk....
Rocket, the problem is that I am not willing to sell you anything. Sorry. I will not use this site as a means to do business at all. Period.
I have just set up another member on a monthly ditto delivery of double x, xs energy drinks, and meal replacement bars. He also mentioned that he is interested in learning more about my water treatment system, so that is next week.
The product that I do the most volume from however is coffee. Everyone has their favorite product that they are able to sell well, and for me it has always been coffee.
It is a great price for great coffee and businesses order every month. They tend to be pretty loyal from what I have found.
Here is the link:
http://tinyurl.com/5o9xx
I am sure you might be able to get this cheaper somewhere, but most businesses I have come across get their coffee from farmer brothers, and they cost over twice as much! So I could charge double my IBO cost and still save them money. When it comes to taste, Nine To Five wins hands down.
There is a Costco in my town, but more people shop from Safeway or Albertsons or Longs drug store, even though it is more expensive. Cost comparisons to these stores show that Quixtar beats them on several products. When Quixtar doesn't beat them, they are still very competitive.
Did you get a chance to read QBlog's thoughts on this? What do you think about them?
--
DF, why do you want to see my numbers? What have you shown us about you? Let's see.... Nothing! I have given my view on this several times and you still persist. I have seen other IBO's share good solid profitable numbers and the critics still didn't agree with the business model so it didn't solve anything.
Plus DF, you have been the rudest to me of most all of the critics besides Hartman, and would be the last person I would give information too. Rocket on the other hand I would be willing to engage in debate with, but I am not sharing my financial statements with anyone on this blog.
I have thought about this and whether I wanted to do it, but I decided not to for various reasons, which I have thouroughly explained in multiple posts.
DF, let's say I showed you a statement of over $100k from the biz. Tell me, what difference would this make? Or what if I showed you a statement of only $40k? Or what if I blew you away with $300k? What difference would it make?
If someone is only making $5k per year after expenses, would there opinion not be recognized? Yet I have not seen ONE single critic provide any proof of their financial earnings, yet you recognize their opinions as valid. So what is it?
The person who makes the most money is the most credible? Or if an IBO is just at 1000pv that they shouldn't be listened to? Bringing income statements in to the debate does not help one way or another from what I have seen. Nor does income claims.
I was asked consistently from critics to tell them how well I was doing with my business, and then finally I did, and then they didn't believe me! Then they demanded proof! What! Like I have to provide you guys anything. Believe me or not, I don't care.
I never hammered you guys to show me your credibility. I was respectful and believed critics that they weren't lying. When they could easily be lying about their situation.
Bottom line is that a request from you, DF, is not honored because you have been flat-out disrespectful towards me and not shown me respect in these debates. Sorry.
Ok Mr. Chris, you know what you said, it’s all down there. So I won’t quote it. There are near 70 comments to his post already. I’ll be brief (read that, BRIEF) before Qblog draws his stupid stick (Yep, he has one! So far he hasn’t used it for long posts by the eyes above are getting creepier) Seriously, comments are open but that doesn't mean we HAVE to abuse them.
It’s just not about making one wrong statement, its running whole LOS as a closed buying club. That CD was just one example. I know by my own experience that it was not what you are perceiving, it was what it was, sponsor ppl, personal use and tools. That statement btw violates 8.3.7. All focus was on tools. Only if 1/10th of that focus was on retail ….
http://tinyurl.com/5v3m9
How about these rules? 8.3.7, 8.3.9, 8.3.13, and ah yes, 8.5. These are ALL Latest. That link is Quixtar own business compendium which is public. How about 5.2.1 and 5.2.3? BWW starter back and intro kit is not Corp produced? Is it? And why I was asked to keep inventory of them if I were not to buy them at the first place? Ok old rules. New rules, still not implemented. Uh oh.
Diamond and kingpins should be held for running an illegal pyramid, misleading and manipulating ppl who trusted them and should return the amount people wasted on crap.
Retail sale rule: My sponsor told to transfer personal 50 PV as retail and Violla! I never heard 70% rule mentioned, EVER. There was some retail “Tips” But they were followed by “But its not residual”.
Diamond income and lifestyle: Diamonds mean every one who walks on stage wearing pin? Are they all REALLY Diamonds? Why they pretend to be then?
Punishment: They all should be forced to read each and every post of yours in the same font. Yup that’ll do.
Ok seriously, I’m not punishing any body. I’m just reporting some bad business practices to some authorities. Authorities will decide according to law what to do. I’m not making plans to get the money back, but I do believe in justice and I want it. Enron dudes could just say sorry and walk away? Well ppl lost money so they were charged. Why different for kingpins who run scams?
Yeager LOS! Yeah that’s good one. Come to forum? It’s about time. Eyes getting mad…..
Chris, thanks for the link, unfortunately it didn't work
"This page has encountered an error.
Page Processing Error"
"Sorry, there is a problem with the page you are trying to reach and it cannot be displayed.
An error has occurred and this page can not be display as intended. We apologize for the inconvenience."
"No Product Component Data For SKU"
Chris, can I ask WHY you are not interested in selling me any products? Whether its through this site or not, what's the difference? I highly doubt that QBlog would care. If you met a guy on a plane and he wanted to buy from you, if the prices were competitive, why would you care where you met the guy? It's money and PV in your pocket? Y? Y? Y?
Your take on the coffee, "When it comes to taste, Nine To Five wins hands down." Fine and Dandy, but when I say the prices are too high, you say that's subjective. It is a BIT pricier, looking at my handy dandy price lists. They MUST be brand loyal to pay that for it.
You don't seem to be all that interested in retail, which surprises me, based on all your previous posts. That's what it's all about, isn't it? Moving product?
Or is it?
Jen, what say you? Interested in competing against my current vendors for retail sales? All you have to do is match the price, including shipping. That's what you guys do, isn't it?
Rocket, this link?
http://tinyurl.com/5o9xx
Works here
Here's how Quixtar's coffee prices compare:
For 42 oz. of # Z2774 "A Cup Above" ground coffee, it retails for $16.99 US, which converts to $20.27 Canadian, not including shipping.
For a 39 oz. tin of Tim Horton's coffee, which is, arguably the most popular and preferred coffee in Canada, I just paid Canadian $9.99 yesterday.
THAT'S PRETTY MUCH TWICE AS MUCH, NOT INCLUDING SHIPPING COSTS!!!
I don't want to hear about better quality because Tim Horton's is a household name in Canada, and its quality is no worse than any other coffee on the market. No web site to support that, but millions upon millions of Canadians agree.
The topic of this post was "The Numbers Do (not) Matter"
I think that this little comparison speaks volumes about this "business" and how numbers likely really do matter.
Sheesh, what a gyp. Good luck selling that.
Chris,
You did contradict yourself. I know at this point, you can't see it, but everyone else can.
Here is my assumption of how many active Quixtar IBOs are on a 'system' - i.e. buying tapes/cds, going to meetings that cost $, going to rallies, paying premium for 'voicemail' etc. services: above 70%. Conservative.
Now, you tell me: what percentage of your downline, estimate, are on 'the system' - define that anyway you like, just as long as it costs your downline $. Plus, how much, per month, does your 'system' cost you?
That's not too personal, is it? I wouldn't think so.
Once again, put up and correct my erroneous ways, or be silent and confirm them. Changing the subject and obfuscating count as a negative response, too.
P.S.- I am not 'PJ' - he apparently is so successful that he spends all of his time now in Orlando at escapes.
I second to rocket, Tim Horton’s Coffee is the best coffee, and Quixtar Coffee is crap in front of it. I have used both. Like many Canadian IBOs out there.
Here is my opinion why there is so less retail:
1) Products are priced higher than they should be. Yeah I know quality, concentration and stuff but they're still priced higher. In Quixtianity MLM one can do a lot eh!
2) If these high priced items are retailed, customers might say a lot of 'negative' things about
a) Products, affecting the IBO faith on products
b) Opportunity, making Ibo negative altogether
Retail is possible, but so is the above two possibilities. Best is to keep the sheep on tapes buying those products, have an army of lawyers to shut down critics, few plants to post on internet, ties with GOP and there it is, 'the opportunity'
(BUMP)
(BUMP)
-BUMP-
df,
You're right. You found me out. I'm just a broke brainwashed apologist.
You obviously know the principle of business and wealth generation.
Let's see your number.
Its time for the numbers to talk; and for the
bullsh*t to walk....
lawdawg,
Which MLM laws is that? The one you made up??? The one the "incompetent" FTC haven't enforced???
Imran,
So, did the CIA assassinated JFK???
Rocket,
See this sign: "We have the right to refuse services to idiot".
Why in the world would I want you as a customer??
Now, to answer QBlog blog.
The stat of 90% business failure was not presented to show traditional business are POS and one should run non-traditional biz.
That stat is used as a lead into the reasons why biz failed: 1) lack of knowledge 2) lack of capital.
Franchise solved the lack of knowledge portion, but not the lack of capital.
"Private Franchise", as WWDB called the Quixtar-WWG opportunity, solved both the lack of knowledge & lack of capital problems.
The stat (
These stats themselves are meaningless without knowledge of the "why". Do you have the top 5 reasons why 90% don't renew after 4 years?
If not, why would asking for the underlying reasons for 90% "failure" be "crazy negative talks"???
Rocket,
Just thought I would let you know that I got an answer from business relations about the total of IBO's. The reason it took so long is that I sent my first email to the wrong address, and so I resent it and got a resonse 3 business days later. Pretty fast.
Anyhow, the number quoted in the article by the reporter from Michigan was just "active" IBO's. It wasn't the total but was an estimate given by Ken McDonald to give an accurate picture of the IBO's responsible for the success of Quixtar.
I also got confirmation that even after non-renewals, the number of IBOs has gone up in correspondence to sales increases from 1999 to the present.
This was from Robin Luymes, Manager-PR Quixtar.
--
QBlog, I will also let you know that I got a response from my email about the homepage blank white space, and they said that they will work on it and see what they can do in their next update. So we will see if that changes at all. I am not really concerned one way or another.
--
Porkchop,
Thanks for the estimates. If you were able to get 70% of active IBO's plugged into the system then you should be the guest speaker at our next conference! I have never heard of numbers that high.
I would love to hear what the other critics say about this, and let's be real please. No fluff on the numbers. I mean, I personally have heard many with less than 10% system rates of all IBO's so I know that anything over 50% is not realistic. We are talking about all IBO's here remember.
--
Mo,
You raise many good points. I really think you should put out your information to authorities and see what happens. I don't know your situation and I didn't experience it, so it is hard for me to relate.
If your sponsor told you to just self report 50pv of your personal volume as member/client volume, then that would be lying and would be wrong. Your sponsor should be corrected on that technique.
I am not in your organization so I cannot verify that they do not teach sales in any way. This blows my mind because this is the first time I have ever heard that. I know that the organizations that plug into Yager teach sales because I see the Yager sons put on sales training events and everything.
The arguments you raise are valid, so go for it. I don't know if I would feel the same way about your negativity towards the Diamonds because I don't think they are running an illegal pyramid. I don't see how you would justify that. But with Q as big as it is, I am sure that there are many that are doing things wrong. So it is good for you to bring that to the attention of authorities.
--
Rocket,
As far as the coffee prices, I was quoting nine to five vs. farmer brothers and you switched to 2 other brands for your comparison. What was that about? I don't mind your comparison but you didn't even acknowledge mine.
Our Kahve coffee won a blind taste test vs Starbucks coffee and so even though it is a more expensive coffee, I have found that customers love it and will pay a few cents more per cup.
Ultimately when we are talking pennies per cup difference, I don't think people consider that such a big deal. 4cents per cup vs. 6cents per cup. I would consider that competitiv
The numbers aren't the real issue, and don't offer much usable information since traditional and mlm businesses are so different. Apples aren't oranges.
I've worked for, and owned, traditional buinesses, along with spending some time in a couple mlms. Mlm's like Quixtar are closer to a franchise than a traditional one-off business. The concepts are proven. For Quixtar at least the financial backing is solid, and there's a well trod path to follow. If the support system is honest and truly oriented towards the distributor's success, say along the WWDB model, then success is really up to the individual distributor and the effort they are willing to put forth. It's very hard to fail if one sticks with it and incorporates whatever changes are needed into their life and presentation.
A traditional business is much harder to succeed at, at least to the higher income levels. Few will offer any residual income. All will face competition and changing markets that don't impact businesses such as Quixtar which are essentially only distribution systems, and not so product dependent.
Bottom line, it's pretty hard to "fail" in an honest mlm if you listen, are willing to change, stick with it, and do the work. It is easy to quit though, and many do.
The idea that only 1/3,000 make Diamond, or 1/500 reach Platinum has nothing to do with the chances for success, but rather the structure of the business. Yes, it takes a couple hundred distributors to support a Platinum- but this isn't a finite "pie" we're cutting up. If you work hard and expand the pie by 2-300 members, you're a Platinum. It's 100%, every time.
Posted by: spiler | November 18, 2004 9:54 PM