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November 13, 2004
Jody Victor Caught On Tape
By QBlog in Arbitration
You remember the Quixtar BSMAA don't you? Sure you do. It's that document new recruits are encouraged to sign when they register as IBOs. My wife signed it when she became an IBO and I bet you signed it too (if you're an IBO).
It's really a nifty little agreement and the more I learn about it the more I agree with Missouri Judge J. Miles Sweeney who said that the BSMAA system is "fundamentally unfair."
Why is the BSMAA "fundamentally unfair?"
Well, the short answer is that if you ever have a problem with your upline (or Line of Affiliation) that can't be resolved amicably then you're basically bound to enter an arbitration process. That process is secret and you MUST abide by the ruling of the "neutral" arbitrators. What Judge Sweeney objected to (in part) is that the arbitrators are trained and essentially selected by the IBOAI. That seems a little unfair in my book. (The lawBlawg has more information about the BSMAA)
Jody Victor And The BSMAA
So what does Jody Victor have to do with the BSMAA? I'm getting to that. Last year some former tool distributors (Brig Hart, Ken Stewart and Charlie Schmitz) sued Alticor, Amway and Quixtar in Missouri. Judge Sweeney's sharp criticisms of the BSMAA resulted from that complaint. And because the BSMAA and it's confidentiality requirements are still being debated, most of the suit's details aren't available to the public.
However, one interesting document (pdf) is available to the public. A summary description of a "newly surfaced" videotape was recently obtained from PACER (a public records database). The document describes the videotape as showing an arbitrator training session and reveals some startling details.
Here are some highlights from the document:
- The Plaintiffs received belated discovery from Defendants in the form of a partial videotape from the May 2, 2003 Quixtar/JAMS session. (JAMS is the Arbitration service)
- The partial videotape contains a number of key admissions against Defendants (Quixtar, et al.) respecting the issues of arbitration and unconscionability.
- On the tape, a Quixtar executive can be heard telling the JAMS arbitrators that "the disputes that arise from there (BSMs) are not specifically covered by the (Quixtar) Rules." The executive continued saying that "the big difference is it doesn't come back to the company for us to make a decision, because it's not covered by our Rules." His statements contradicted his earlier deposition testimony where he said that "disputes relating to the sale of independently-produced BSMs are covered by Rule 11 in the Rules of Conduct." Oopsie.
- There's a moment when a Quixtar representative is telling some JAMS arbitrators that "some of the disputes may even question the arbitration process." That comment is followed by laughter from the entire room.
- The JAMS arbitrators are repeatedly told that Quixtar is "fair and equitable," has "integrity" and "character" and that it's "not a pyramid." That may not seem like such a big deal unless you understand that nobody is providing similarly positive comments about you. So much for neutrality.
- Jody Victor, not realizing the camera was on, is seen "woodshedding a JAMS facilitator" about a Plaintiff in a Florida arbitration case. Jody Victor then discusses another confidential arbitration case with the JAMS facilitator explaining that the Plaintiff "knew what they were doing was wrong." Gee, that's fair.
- Jody Victor then compares training JAMS arbitrators to "training cats, dogs, seals (and) elephants." Why did he omit monkeys from his list?
Sex, Lies and Videotape
Frankly, I must agree with Judge Sweeney when he says that the Quixtar arbitration process is "fundamentally unfair." The big question on my mind is how much similarly alarming information is still under a protective order? What would we think about the arbitration process if we knew ALL the facts. I shudder to think.
Comments
"So that when the unsuspecting IBO wakes up to discover he has wedded a monster, he is financially trapped, and at best can simply walk away broke but wiser."
Oh, it could be a lot worse than that, CK. He could find himself not only losing money because of his upline's lies and losing any right to recoup it because his "arbitrator" has been paid off, but he could end up paying for all the attorneys' fees incurred by his upline for the arbitration process.
How would you like to be lied to to induce you give someone money and when you sue to get it back you end up with an arbitrator's judgment that YOU should also pay $1 million in attorneys' fees for daring to complain about it? Think it hasn't happened?
Guess again.
Do you think lying is exclusive to any one company or any one mlm?
Guess again.
Bo Short, founder of Passport, scammed his way to the top of Amway by pretending to be someone he is not, and then turned on the company when his business dissolved. He admits to his deceptions about secretly buying his business volume, which was clearly against the rules (and he knew it).
Now he wants people to trust him, calling Passport “a different kind of biz.” Actually I would agree with him there. He has no training, only a few junk products, no public financials, a huge debt load, and no one netting $500/month, even after 3 years.
We need to do one of those football style lotteries where we all guess the date when we predict passport will finally file for bankruptcy. The closest person to the correct answer wins.
And there's no BSMAA and no Jody Victor. Yep, it's different alright.
Funny. When I read the title of this post and the contents of it, I don't recall any mention of Bo or Passport.
Qrush is that you? Now who's pretending to be someone he's not?
What's really funny is that "what?" isn't stepping forward to defend the actions or the BSMAA, he's just trying to redirect attention elsewhere.
That's an old tactic and one taught in Quixtar from day one.
Gee, Bo scammed his way to the top in Amway? And that would be different from the other kingpins, how?
I think I know the answer. Bo bought his own leg. Britt, Yeager, and the others were apparently better con-artisits, and had their legs bought by convincing OTHER PEOPLE that their 'own' businesses would not survive unless they bought all their consumables from their uplines.
Yeah, it's different all right.
Not that that makes Passport a good money-making venture, but at least you won't be losing it hand-over-fist.
Caveat emptor.
I've noticed that a lot of the supporters do tend to divert, subvert, redirect, and deflect. The only exception would be Chris, and he sometimes needs a kick start to stay on topic. ( Not an insult Chris! :)
This whole BSMAA is a pile of crap, and so is Jody Victor, in my opinion. They must not have too much confidence in their own business if they are making a safety to protect them from liability before they even start.
It is different from people buying malpractice insurance, or contractor liability insurance because those people are not handcuffing individuals into an agreement that states they will have to abide by a third party adjudicator that was selected by the contractor. In any event, you would never get a homeowner signing an agreement with a contractor of this nature when building their home.
Another shred of proof that this is not a "real" business.
Reminds me of, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
To clarify a point made by what? (or Qrush)
I own and operate "a different kind of biz.com" as well as "a different kind of biz blog".
My wife and I created the name. Bo Short has no role in the operation and development of our websites.
I will release my financials about my Passport business as soon as Qrush reveals his source of income.
Well said, Rocket. People just need to do their research before signing up. If one were acquiring a conventional business, one would most likely hire a lawyer to examine the agreement.
It seems that many IBO's do not do this. I cannot believe that any lawyer worth his salt would recommend that an IBO agree to the BSMAA.
Buzzard,
I agree that this should be the norm. One of the problems here is that many are signed up by a close friend or family member and this document is glossed over as a mere formality. This is what happened to me (I posted the details of my experience here: http://sinkinginquixand.blogspot.com/2004/11/moral-of-story.html#comments ).
Perhaps this is one of the first exercises in unquestioning trust in the upline.
If people reviewed most documents they signed in their lifetime, they wouldn't sign most of them. The truth is that people glaze over documents all the time. Especially online documents that just require a click in a box.
I agree that it would be wise for people to consult with a lawyer before signing anything, but the reality is that the nation is far away from doing this.
As an IBO, I signed the BSMAA after reviewing it carefully, and was told to do so by my upline. I was fine with signing it, and I still am today. I have confidence in a respectable relationship with my business support team and the IBOAI for the future.
This is just how I feel, although I am open for the document being updated and clarified to become more reasonable.
Wow, look at "What?" what posts. I bet "what?" is Qrush. The only one with such a hard-on for Bo Short is Qrush and of course Bo Short's wife.
Chris:
You aren't understanding the issue. This isn't a question of reading over a contract and noticing the small print. First, the real problem here isn't in the contract. It's buried in the business compendium, which allows the IBOAI and the corporation to have exclusive "training" and appointment authority over the supposedly "neutral" arbitrators. Second, it's the simple fact that any dispute you have will be decided by people who have been contacted outside of your presence and who are completely beholden to the corporation and certain IBOs.
That's what led the Missouri judge to describe it as "fundamentally unfair" and "offensive." And I would add "inherently corrupt" to the list.
You make yourself look very bad by trying to defend this. Quixtar and Jody should be embarassed for even having tried it.
Keep paddlin' Chris!
Keep paddlin.........
Your canoe is sinking, so you better
start bailing water -AND- paddling......
...and buying books
...and buying CDs
...and going to functions
WoW! You are one busy guy? Where do you find time to do all of that? Is crack an active ingridient in XS ???
hahahaha
Dude, you are a clown!
Wow DF, you are a great addition to the team of anti-quixtar critics. Where do you come up with the time to put together such intelligent posts?
Lawblawg, why the negative response towards me? I clearly am siding with you on this that I am for the issue being addressed and changed. I wrote that in the post you responded to. All that I added was that I myself signed the document.
Did you consider that some sort of serious defense for keeping the contract the way it is?
So what is your recommendation on how the IBOAI should change it? Obviously an arbitration process is a good thing, so how/who do you think should arbitrate in this matter?
Chris:
First, save the "being negative" talk for functions.
Second, re-read the post of yours that I was responding to. You were defending IBOAI for doing this. You can pretend now that you didn't but your words are there for everyone to see about five or six comments down from this one.
Chris:
Thank you for the lovely compliment. Hurry along now, I think you have to hit the showers before your next function starts.
Slam that XS! Chug, chug chug!
You guys need to leave Jody Victor alone. He has helped a lot of people get ahead, probably thousands. He gives to local charities and loves small animals.
You guys are jerks!
Chris:
It is true that people do not read everything that they sign. This is certainly the case with consumer contracts. But with a consumer contract the law provides safeguards against unfair terms, to protect the consumer, who has less bargaining power. [I am from the UK but I assume that the US law protects consumers in a similar way. Do correct me if I am wrong]
Purchasing one's own business - any business - is a major decision in which both parties (theoretically) have equal bargaining power. With this in mind, consulting with a lawyer would be wise. When both parties are on an equal footing, the rule of caveat emptor (buyer beware) generally applies.
Jason:
I read your post on your blog. I can certainly see how the situation may have been awkward for you. I imagine you're not the only person to have signed up in this way. The last thing anyone wants to do is upset the in-laws. I guess it's one of those things to put down to experience.
dawn said:
"You guys need to leave Jody Victor alone. He has helped a lot of people get ahead, probably thousands. He gives to local charities and loves small animals."
1. dawn, please tell us what you mean by "get ahead". You mean, make lots of money? Could you give us a list of people Jody has helped make a lot of money (NET after all system expenses). I don't mean give us a list of PINS in Jody's downline, I mean, people actually making lots of money. I bet it's a lot less than 100.
2. about the charities and small animals, you were kidding about this, right?
I have been ignoring the comments for the last several weeks, but when I read this I had to check out the comment.
Sure enough, Chris once again defends that which cannot be defended.
Chris, it doesn't matter whether "most people don't read everything that they sign". Aside from the fact that the entire arbitration process is entirely unethical on just about every level, the key player aren't even following their own execrable rules!
Tell me Chris: how low will these liars, cheats, and thieves have to stoop before you finally give up?
Chris said:
"If people reviewed most documents they signed in their lifetime, they wouldn't sign most of them. The truth is that people glaze over documents all the time. Especially online documents that just require a click in a box."
If you do not read and comprehend what you are signing, you are a fool.
Sorry, meant to follow that up. It's just another example of this "business" being run with emotion and not business sense.
Nobody in their right mind who understood what that document meant would sign it. It's just pathetic that these sheep are so gullible.
No offence Chris, but you don't have a lot of business smarts if you have no problem signing that.
And that's not negative, that's just plain logic. You suggest you are staking your future on this "opportunity" yet will allow them to ultimately have control over your future with that document. And you don't have a problem with that?
YOU are not in control of YOUR business. That's a fact, Jack.
Hey dummy, do you own a house, ever refinanced? Maybe not. You signed one there too.
"Hey dummy, do you own a house, ever refinanced? Maybe not. You signed one there too."
Mine had an arbitration agreement but it was governed by the Rules of the American Arbitration Association, which do not allow one side to talk to or train the arbitrator outside the presence of everyone else. Wake up, Mikey, it's not the presence of an arbitration agreement that's stinks, it's the WAY Quixtar handles the arbitration that is "offensive" and those rules aren't in the contract - they are buried in the business compendium.
Dawn said:
"You guys need to leave Jody Victor alone. He has helped a lot of people get ahead, probably thousands. He gives to local charities and loves small animals."
So because someone gives to charities, and loves small animals, and has made some motivational speeches that have allegedly helped people, it makes it okay that he endorses a system that relies on the failure of the majority as a means of success for the few?
Let's look at it another way. I give to local charities, tithe 10% of my income to the local church, adore animals, and help people make intelligent decisions about whether or not to join Quixtar. I'm sure this could be said for some of the other critics here as well. So does that mean that the pro-Quixtar constituency needs to leave US alone and that they are jerks?
I'm sorry Dawn but your arguement is just so typical of what I and many others have come to know about this 'opportunity'. When an intelligent argument can't be made, then lets resort to name calling and glorifying the upline.
Jason:
What is your problem? Why are you picking on Jody Victor? He is a good man and has helped thousands of people like you. Where do you live? Maybe we can get together and get you on the Markerman system. It would help you out a lot, not just in making money, but with some of your personal stuff.
And what are you talking about? Jody Victor loves all sizes of animals, not just small animals.
Wake up and smell the coffe IBO's.Yeah they ain't no pv in it but it sure smells better than the stuff they fill you with.
Dawn,
I'm not picking on Jody. I'm picking on you.
Just kidding.
As for my problem, it really isn't with Jody personally. It's with the system he and the rest of the Quixtar brass promote. The only thing he's helped me with is reinforcing my utter disdain for the system and it's leadership.
By the way, you were the one who used the word small about the animals so the ball is back in your court there.
Thanks for the offer but my personal development comes from the Lord Jesus Christ, not the lord Jody Victor.
Mikem, nice comment. Intelligent as well, and completely irrelevant.
Well Crafted. Keep on dreamin'
I don't think its me who's the dummy
Dawn said: Jody Victor loves all sizes of animals, not just small animals.
>Boy! This IS funny. Dawn, or any body, please tell me why I am laughing after reading this? :o)
Lawdawg,
I had you figured for an intelligent guy, and up until now we have had pretty reasonable discussions, but then you started reacting differently in the comments on this post.
You wrote: "re-read the post of yours that I was responding to. You were defending IBOAI for doing this. You can pretend now that you didn't but your words are there for everyone to see about five or six comments down from this one."
You were referring to where I wrote: "I have confidence in a respectable relationship with my business support team and the IBOAI for the future. This is just how I feel, although I am open for the document being updated and clarified to become more reasonable."
I do believe in what I wrote, and will stand by it. I do see the IBOAI as an asset to IBO's in the future and I think that when problems come up that we will get them fixed, which is why I am open to updating the BSMAA. If anything, the statement I made was more in favor of your side of the debate than theirs.
--
Buzzard,
Glad to see we agree.
--
Mike,
Same response goes to you that I gave Lawdawg. I commented saying that I signed the BSMAA like most others, that I am open for it being changed, and that I have confidence in a good relationship with the IBO for the future. Then I stated that this was just how I felt.
Why did you critics feel the need to dispute a statement from an IBO that agreed with you on an issue. This just goes to show that whether I agree or disagree, I still get disputed.
--
My opinion is simple. I am open-minded and supportive of a third-party like group of "watchdogs" over the networking marketing industry and Quixtar specifically. I think that blogs like this do help to serve IBO's in a way. Blogs like this and mainly a few others, also hurt IBO's in a major way as well. I have voiced my comments on that on other posts.
So, if a critics truly wants to see Quixtar become a better company and opportunity for IBO's, like many critics have said, then who am I to disrespect that cause?
I am glad that there are critics that discover details in small print that should be uncovered and changed. This will HELP IBO's and give them a better opportunity.
If it is the critics goal to get the company shut down and take this opportunity away from thousands of us IBO's then I am against that critics motives. I will not stop that critic in any way, but I wouldn't work too close with them.
Most of the critics on this blog are fair-minded and reasonable. Keep up the good work. If it weren't for things like lawsuits and criticism, many leaders of organizations would not have the wake up call they need to make effective changes that in the long run will serve the needs of the IBO's more and give them a better chance for success.
In this way, I owe many critics my thanks :)
I still disagree with much that I hear, but that is why debating is so much fun. I have learned a lot, and hopefully I have added value in some of my comments.
--
Ray,
Actually the pv is quite good on coffee :)
Chris,
You've really turned into a jackass lately. Everytime I disagree with you about something you start your post by insulting my intelligence. Sorry, you're the one that doesn't understand basic Economics. I've tried to be respectful with you and keep things civil but I'm rather sick of having my intelligence questioned simply because I disagree with you. When you want to grow up, let me know.
LawDawg:
Don't be mad at Chris--he is tired and grumpy from a weekend bender of late-nights, early-mornings, false-hopes, holy-rolling, long-commutes and XS....
....must be that "time of the month" again.
No--not that, get your mind out of the gutter. I am referrring to "Leadership Seminar" weekend! Yah!
If I had to sacrifice my sleep, family-time, income, and diginity for 72 straight hours, I'd be a little grumpy too.
Chris,
Get some sleep buddy. We'll still be here with more questions that you can't answer.
Chris I feel left out. You didn't provide any insight for my comments, maybe you don't have any thoughts on my train of thought?
Nobody in their right mind who understood what that document meant would sign it. It's just pathetic that these sheep are so gullible.
No offence Chris, but you don't have a lot of business smarts if you have no problem signing that.
And that's not negative, that's just plain logic. You suggest you are staking your future on this "opportunity" yet will allow them to ultimately have control over your future with that document. And you don't have a problem with that?
YOU are not in control of YOUR business. That's a fact, Jack.
Lawdawg,
I'm lost. I just had you figured for another type of person. I apologize. I had higher hopes for you. I read your blog weekly and have seen you as a very intelligent person with topics that you put great perspective on. I have never really had a problem with you even though we have disagreed.
I was simply stating that you were wrong in your understanding of my post in the comments. But rather than get into a lengthy discussion over such a small matter, we will just let any visitors that read this decide for themselves.
I have clearly stated where I stand, and have thanked you and others for the work you have done to uncover things that need to be uncovered so that they can be fixed so that the Quixtar opportunity can be even better for IBO's like myself.
I don't know why you want to come at me with "jackass" comments. I didn't insult your intelligence, you just read it that way. I simply said that I had you figured for an "intelligent" guy. That could be taken as a compliment. If you think the insult was the "had" word, then you are taking it out of context. I have complimented your intelligence several places on this blog.
You made a claim that I was defending the IBOAI in their actions on the BSMAA document, and then said that I can pretend now that I didn't defend them. This is why I said I "had" you figured for an intelligent guy. Because you started coming at me negatively in these comments, and saying things that weren't true.
I apologize if it came off that way when you read it. I can understand that writing can be a tough way to get points across, and most of us could use some improvement in this area. Maybe QBlog could write about it in Blogging 101.
No hard feelings Lawdawg, thanks for being a "watchdog" and helping to improve the Quixtar opportunity. Critics like yourself and others should be shown more respect for helping IBO's to have a more legally sound business. Thank You.
--
Rocket, by the way, were you ever an IBO powered by Quixtar?
Chris,
I had you figured for a guy that didn't have his head up his ass. Please, don't take that as an insult.
And, Yes, when in context of a post about Jody Victor having unethical ex parte contacts with arbitrators you post that you think the IBOAI is trustworthy, your purpose is to defend the board. Denying it now just makes you look bad.
As does backtracking and trying to explain how you haven't repeatedly insulted me. All it does is serve to underscore that, in fact, you HAVE repeatedly insulted me without provocation. Had you fessed up and apologized I would have listened. But you chose not to switch to the high road.
What exactly where your "High Hopes" for me anyway, Chris?
Did you expect me to solve the "mind-body" problem that has plagued philosophers all these centuries? Or perhaps you had "High Hopes" that I would discover a renewable alternative to oil and end the tensions in the Middle-East? I'm sorry to have disappointed your "High Hopes."
I think Chris had "High Hopes" that he could recruit on this sight.
Swingandamiss! Strike One!
I think Chris had "High Hopes" that the 'business' would one-day run itself.
'Nother big chop! Strike Two!
I think Chris had "High Hopes" that the 'business' would make him rich.
Caught looking. Strike three! Yeeer Out!
Chris,
Take a look in the archives. You'll find the answers to your questions about me.
And that, my friend, is more of an answer then you have EVER provided to me.
I must have an error on my page here, because I didn't see a response about you staking your future on the board of knobs, who, incidently, make more money off the tools you buy then Quixtar products.
Good thing you got them watching your back. Frankly, I'd rather cover my own butt, thanks.
If you think any decision from that group of liars will be anything but to benefit themselves, you are a fool.
Unless you are able to provide a reason as to why someone should think otherwise. Advance warning, it's a pretty tough room here.
Lawdawg,
I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, it is just that you keep twisting what I say and putting words in my mouth.
You wrote: "...you post that you think the IBOAI is trustworthy...You were defending IBOAI for doing this".
Look at what I wrote that you were reffering to:
"I have confidence in a respectable relationship with my business support team and the IBOAI for the FUTURE."
So you can see clearly how I did not say the things the way you wrote them. It couldn't be more clear that you are putting words in my mouth. This is why I questioned your intelligence, and I am sorry that I did. It is not my intention to come off rude in these comments. Just please don't twist my words and we can move past this topic.
About high hopes:
When I first started reading your writings, I had respect for you because of your writing style. I hadn't seen you verbally attack IBO's or use profanities, or anything of that nature. Just clean information presented in an intelligent and fair way. Which is why I bookmarked your site and read it often.
I just have a certain taste for conversation, and you and QBlog and others like Jason, all fit that style. You can be whoever you want to be, but that is where my hopes came from.
My hopes were simply that you weren't like many of the critics on here who just verbally abuse pro-quixtar IBO's like DF. There are many IBO's who do the same thing to critics and I think it is wrong too.
I thought that I had apologized earlier in my comments if they offended you. I even explained how I tried not to offend you. My goal is not to offend anybody, but just to contribute a positive-quixtar side of the debate. So if it wasn't clear earlier, I am sorry. In my comments below I wrote:
"thanks for being a "watchdog" and helping to improve the Quixtar opportunity. Critics like yourself and others should be shown more respect for helping IBO's to have a more legally sound business. Thank You."
I meant that. There are many critics out there who I can relate to, and I would like to see the business improved as well. I do not appreciate your comments saying that I have my "head up my @#$". You can say whatever you want, but I would request discussions without comments like those. Thank You.
--
DF, you are impossible to talk with. All that you do is say disrespectful things towards me.
FYI, I have clearly stated that I will not use this blog as a recruting tool. There is no contact information for someone to get in touch with me, and there is not one single person that I have contacted on here. QBlog has emailed me to ask me questions, and I have replied, but that is it.
As far as my hopes for Quixtar, they are right on track. I am making good money, I have more free time now, and I do plan on becoming "rich". Which is a different definition for everybody. These are goals for many who start their own business, traditional business included.
Chris, here's what you originally wrote:
"I had you figured for an intelligent guy, and up until now we have had pretty reasonable discussions, but then you started reacting differently in the comments on this post."
Here's what you said in your so-called apology:
"I didn't insult your intelligence, you just read it that way. I simply said that I had you figured for an "intelligent" guy."
Uh, yes, Chris, you did insult me. And uh, no, Chris, you didn't apologize. You tried to mislead about what you'd said. I'm sorry Chris, I cannot allow you to keep falsey recounting what you've posted without calling you out on it.
It's a habit you have. When you say something incorrect, or inappropriate, you should admit it, not lie about what you wrote. If you want to be taken seriously in a debate, a good place to start would be with some honesty and integrity and by taking responsibility for the things you do and say. That's all I ask.
Chris wrote:
"So if it wasn't clear earlier, I am sorry. "
Apology accepted.
I think Chris is ignoring me, or else it's just the questions that he can't answer that he's ignoring.
As far as verbal abuse from critics, Chris, the closest I've seen is Lawdawg saying you have your head up your ass, which he supported with reasons as to why you have your head up your ass.
If you consider being challenged verbal abuse, then you must get verbally abused everytime you show the plan.
Are you ignoring me because:
You can't answer my questions for supporting your claims a month ago? OR
You can't argue with the high prices that I keep harping about? OR
Don't like me trashing Jody Victor's ethics?
Be a man Chris. Just admit you don't have the answers that you suggest you have. Lawdawg's right, you are very subversive when defending yourself. You answer a question with answers that don't match the question, it's like you make up a question to answer when the original is too difficult.
I find it weird, because you seem to want us to think you're intelligent, and you come across very well, yet cannot answer the simplest of questions.
"Chris, the closest I've seen is Lawdawg saying you have your head up your ass"
I didn't say that, rocket. Remember? You must just be reading it that way.
;)
I stand corrected. It was an insinuation.
See Chris? Not so hard.
Rocket:
You aren't gonna get your ?s answered.
Chris hasn't given a straight answer (or a clear apology) in the past umteen weeks he's been here.
Just join in the fun and jibe him. Its more fun that running around in circles; even more fun than DRAWING circles...on a $60 dry-erase board! HA!
Chris, whenever you want to confront the FACTS, let me know. We can talk then.
But first, you got some 'splaining to do--to your friend the Rocket! Toodles!
Man you guys are something.
Lawdawg, thanks for accpeting the apology. I don't want anyone to feel insulted by something I wrote. Honestly, at the time I wrote it, it wasn't written as an insult, which is why i suggested that it was misunderstood. But I was insulted by you as well, and I don't appreciate that either.
--
Rocket, the only question that I can recall not answering was me forwarding you the information I receive from business relations once I get it. So far all I have received was information saying that the total numbers of IBO's change every month, so I responded to them requesting for them to give me a statistic that shows the total number of IBO's last year.
I told you that as soon as I got it, I would let you know what it was, and so far I have not received that email. I asked you what other questions I did not respond to, and you told me to look in the archives, and after reviewing several of our conversations, that was the only unanswered question I could find. Please let me know if I missed one.
On top of that, it is not my responsibility to answer every single question asked of me, nor is it any of your responsibilities. I am happy with how we all take the time to answer many of eachothers questions, even though many of mine do not get answered, but I don't repeatedly give critics a hard time when they don't answer them. Maybe I should though?
This is very very surreal. I don't know if you have 2 personalities, or just can't follow a conversation. Chris said:
"I asked you what other questions I did not respond to, and you told me to look in the archives, and after reviewing several of our conversations, that was the only unanswered question I could find. Please let me know if I missed one."
What Chris asked:
"Rocket, by the way, were you ever an IBO powered by Quixtar?"
I find it very hard to believe that a person who cannot handle a conversation or keep track of questions would be any good at all as a business owner. Amway or otherwise. You are not "free" my friend. You have well articulated answers, but it's obvious you are either a fraud, or someone who is used to having everything they say accepted at face value, and aren't used to backing up you claims or being accountable.
I have given my history in Amway in previous posts. That's my answer. Look it up in archieves. I guess you have a difficult time processing straight answers, as this would not be the norm for you.
I remain waiting for your responses to your outlandish claims.............
Ok Rocket, let's try this again.
I am guessing that the question you feel that I did not answer yet is this one:
"You suggest you are staking your future on this "opportunity" yet will allow them to ultimately have control over your future with that document. And you don't have a problem with that?"
I don't think I ever said I "don't have a problem with that". I thought that I answered this question through my responses to Lawdawg. But I will try to answer this again for you.
My friend runs a very successful affiliate program. He does not need any other source of income and now makes 6 figures. At any given time, his affiliate can pull out completely. On top of that, at any given time, Google or Yahoo can drop his sites completely. Does he "not have a problem with this"?
Of course he has a problem with it, but it is still a good opportunity for him. He is basing his entire income and occupation on it even though it can be swept out from underneath him. He signed contracts that allowed them to do this. Then there are unsigned contracts that still allow Google/Yahoo to drop him completely.
How is this similar to an IBO? In many ways. In network marketing, the entire industry could potentially be put to a pause by government if they felt the need to. Or a company could go under and you could lose everything.
Or an arbitration group could be paid off and have a decision go another way. Any of these things would suck! Would I like to see more advantages and fairness put into my side of the court? YES. Will I stop building my biz because of something like this? NO.
Am I an idiot for signing the BSMAA? Maybe, but I am living a better life because of what the system has provided me. I think of it this way. If I lost eveything I had and had to start over from scratch, I would be successful again in a very short time because of the personal and professional development I received from the BSM's.
So I hope that agreement gets updated to be more fair. I am thankful to people like Lawdawg and QBlog and others for exposing this. I have thanked them publicly in these comments.
--
So I think that answers just about every question that I have been asked so far. And if I missed some, I am sorry. QBlog has missed some of my questions, but he is a busy guy and I wouldn't want to give him a hard time about it. I think he does a great job in other areas.
OK, your friend who runs a successful affiliate program has signed these things that allow for it to be taken away, I won't touch that because I have never seen the agreements he signed. On the surface, from what you describe, it wouldn't appear that the process would involve a very biased third party, which the BSMAA would. As well, your friend is free to set up backup plans with other companies in the event that this does happen. Nothing is stopping him. Not so in Quixtar, when you are told to sell out to yourself. I can just imagine someone who decides to put their distributors in another MLM so in the event of a dispute with Amway, they will have a backup business with another MLM.
Now with the BSMAA. Here you have ultimate control of any disputes arising in "your" business taken away by an unethical (my opinion) group of people who decide whether or not your complaint is valid, and provide some recourse. These people are selected and trained by one half of the dispute parties, of which you would not be.
This is like a person building your house, but making you sign a contract that any disputes will be settled with a guy he has selected and is on his payroll. Think many potential homebuilders woud go with that guy? I doubt it. If you think anybody would, give your head a shake.
Sorry for paraphrasing that you don't have a problem with that, here's what you said:
"I was fine with signing it, and I still am today. "
I took that to mean that you didn't have a problem with it.
If you are as intelligent as you come across, there is no way that you would allow your future to be in the hands of these guys.
"I was fine with signing it, and I still am today...although I am open for the document being updated and clarified to become more reasonable."
This puts that quote in proper context. This shows that I was not defending the IBOAI, but instead I was simply saying where I stood on the matter.
Just like my good friend who is doing very well in a business where the companies he advertises for can pull out at any time, I too am in a position by signing this form where that is potentially possible in a similar way, although not likely.
I have confidence in a trustworthy relationship with the IBOAI board, who will likely be comprised of many different people at a point where a dispute in my business might happen. My upline diamond is a man of integrity, and I trust him enough to follow his lead with this business model.
You can call me an idiot for being able to trust somebody when it comes to business, and maybe a businessperson should "trust no man", but I have been a trusting person with people in the past and it has paid off greatly in my favor. As it has so far with my business. Trust needs to be earned, and my upline Diamond has earned it.
I happen to be very diversified in my income as well. I try to be very frugal, and invest when I can. Starting up new businesses, getting them to a point where they run without me, and then exiting out of them. Real Estate, Stock Market, etc. will be my investments for 2005, but my passion is my Quixtar-Powered Business.
I love the system of personal and professional development and that is one of the things that I love the most about what I do. I get to help people improve their lives both personally and professionally. It's awesome! I could make over a million a year from other sources, and I would still be passionate about Quixtar.
"I have confidence in a trustworthy relationship with the IBOAI board, who will likely be comprised of many different people at a point where a dispute in my business might happen. My upline diamond is a man of integrity, and I trust him enough to follow his lead with this business model."
I would hope so, Chris. With that arbitration agreement you have no choice but to trust your upline. And if they choose to betray that trust, you have no choice but to take your lumpls.
Here's a question I mean very seriously: If the business is built on "trust", why have an arbitration agreement that allows the IBOAI to control the arbitrators? Why have an arbitration agreement at all? Good trustworthy people don't get into disputes, right?
Understand, Chris, real businessmen don't even think about business the way you do. They get lawyers to review their busienss contracts. They understand their rights. The do NOT leave the success and integrity of their business up to the whims of those they trust. They put their deal in a fair and beneficial writing.
And no, you can't pull out of Quixtar at any time and walk away. There's a non-compete covenant.
I am aware of the non-compete agreement, and yes it is possible to pull out of quixtar at any time.
I do have trust in my upline and business support team, and I have taken mentorship from a few different successful people in my life, and they don't give me the same advice that you do.
So are they not "real" businessmen? Because they don't tell me I have my head up my @#$ like you do? I am aware of what I signed and I don't have a problem with it. I don't see a problem happening with it either.
I am for them changing it though because I want the rights for IBO's to be more protected. So yes, I would be for changing it, and on this issue, we agree. But to suggest that I am not a "real" businessman because I didn't have a lawyer review that contract is just a petty insult.
I make good money, I have tons of free time, and I like my life. I am excited about my business, but just as excited about several of my hobbies, and my faith, and my family. God could take all of this away from me tomorrow and I would still be happy, and I would start from scratch.
I feel that I am well positioned in my business, and I take my financial advice from a successful non-quixtar businessman who is my mentor. He seems to think that I am doing very well at the present time and on track to do even better. So your insults don't shake me up if that was your intention.
So let's quit the petty insulting and if you would really like to make a difference, why don't you get a game plan started to initiate change on the BSMAA? That way we could focus on the solution instead of the problem.
The issue isn't whether you let a lawyer look at the contract (that that's a part of it). The issue is that a real businessman doesn't just trust his business to "trust." They put it in writing. They read what they sign and sign fair agreements that are beneficial to their business. They refuse to sign agreements that would put the future of the their business at the whim of someone else because they think it's all about trust.
I'm not kidding. That's what they do.
Chris said:
I feel that I am well positioned in my business, and I take my financial advice from a successful non-quixtar businessman who is my mentor. He seems to think that I am doing very well at the present time and on track to do even better.
I said:
Recruited him yet?
Roger,
Nope, why would I "recruit" him? I have more business than I can get my hands around right now. On top of that, he already has a vehicle to achieve his goals. I am impressed by his financial goals. He is a very big thinker.
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Lawdawg,
So let me see if I understand what you are trying to say. You are basically saying that all Quixtar IBO's who have signed the BSMAA agreement are not "real" businessmen.
I agree with you that you don't "just" rely on trust alone. I also know that you can cover your butt in paperwork and still get screwed. So sometimes trusting the right people is the more important decision than the paperwork involved.
I understand that you do not trust the IBOAI, but I have nothing but respect for them, and I do trust them. More importantly, I trust the direction and leadership of my upline diamond.
So if that means that I am not a "real" businessman then so be it. I am already successful, and am very happy with my business decisions up to date, and other than you, I don't know of a single person who doesn't consider me a real businessman.
You don't even know me. How do I know your decisions with finances and life are any wiser than mine? Why should an IBO like me listen to you and follow your advice? I like your logical approach, but you claim to know so much about smart business moves yet I take advice from successful people I know, and they wouldn't agree with you on many issues.
For instance, I have a millionaire friend who has told me that trust is one of the most important factors to success. He had a business partner burn him once early on, and that lesson was priceless for him, because he learned to partner with people he could trust.
So what if my decision to sign the BSMAA turns out to be one of the smartest moves in my life? Where holding back on that contract may have held me back and not given me the same chances for success.
If I lost everything today, I would still have an advantage because of the skills and prinicples I have learned from the training system. I am very glad that I signed that agreement. I wouldn't take it back if I was given the chance. I have GAINED because of the business support materials.
There is risk involved, I admit that. And I also agree with you that the agreement should be changed. But we disagree on your definition of a real businessperson.
Chris,
Why wouldn't you? This guy sounds like a Diamond's wet dream in the making.
Your business is so good to turn down a great lead, someone who has looked at the business, seen your success, and not run away and yet you don;t offer hima piece of the pie?
Aren't IBOs delinquent in their duties if you don't show the plan to everyone possible as they deserve the priviledge of being set free as well?
Just asking, I mean you got IBOs out there prospecting strangers in Wal-Marts and book stores, obviously not "recruiting up", yet you have access to someone who could afford the tools and be in the business long enough to actually get a group under him before his money runs out and he can then join in the BSM business and make real money.
See, that's my theory, If I had a 6 figure income like Orrin Woodward had from GM, I could stay in long enough to get enough people under me to get invited to the BSM racket like he was.
Cause see Orrin claims 50K people, but there ain't been a huge increase in overall IBOs.... so they just shifted placement in lines with the new people joining every year to replace the 50% dropping out each year.
Anyway, I'm shifting topics again.
Roger,
Most everyone can afford the tools, and get profitable in their own business if they choose to. Some of the most successful IBO's were broke when they started their businesses, so that theory doesn't really stand up.
I do believe sponsoring up is a good thing, but that does not always mean money. The main thing would be ambition.
I don't prospect everyone I come across. My financial mentor already has his game plan for success, and he is taking time on the side of that to financially mentor me. I am thankful enough for that. There is no reason for him to partner with me in a business at this time.
Thanks for seeming so concerned [:)+
"I understand that you do not trust the IBOAI, but I have nothing but respect for them, and I do trust them. More importantly, I trust the direction and leadership of my upline diamond."
Chris, you're still missing the point, dude. THEY don't trust YOU or other IBOs. If they did, they'd be content to settle their disputes fairly. They don't want to chance that so they have an arbitration process that allows them complete control over any dispute that might arise. The fact that they would even do this, is a sign that they can't be trusted. But you don't care because you blindly trust them no matter what. Hey, that's your prerogative. But it's not prudent business.
"Most everyone can afford the tools, and get profitable in their own business if they choose to."
What do you consider the recommended amount of tools a new, serious business builder should purchase? How much will this cost per month on average?
Well, to be honest Chris...my concern is more of a look for consistency.
Didn't Dexter Yager say " If you really care about someone you will sponsor them" ??
Roger, thanks for the advice, I am already on a gameplan with my mentor. Honestly when it comes to sponsoring advice I would rather take it from my mentor than a critic who has a negative view of the business. But thanks anyhow :)
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Lawdawg,
The financial investment for a new IBO would depend on their current financial/time situation, the goals they have, and the time frame they want to achieve those goals in.
Obviously if they had a financial goal of achieving $100k in a one year time frame, then they are going to need to work their business very hard for that year, and that would include having a very good supply of tools on hand at all times to support the growth.
Someone with a goal to achieve that in 2 years would need less of an investment. 5 years, even less.
I would recommend for the average IBO who is willing to put forth the effort and work, to invest in the same amount of tools that is recommended to everyone else in the team. This makes it more duplicatable.
I would say that figure could run about $200 to launch the business, and average around $200 per month over the first year.
After the first year at the latest, they should be in a position where they are reinvesting their profits into their overhead, so they can increase their overhead with their business as needed, to build out of town groups and such. Often times they can be reinvesting profits after just a few months.
Thanks, Chris.
So: $200 initial investment and $200 month in recurring costs.
How much PV should the IBO be selling directly to retail customers if he is building the business the way you believe it should be built?
Let's make one thing clear. Those numbers will vary based on the IBO and their goals and they are completely optional. I would personally recommend these rough figures to an IBO if they had shared their goals with me that I felt could be better achieved with that type of investment in materials.
As far as your sales question, as much as possible of course. This is a business of sales, and so the IBO should sell as much as he/she can to make as much money as they can.
Are you asking for a minimum? I am not quite sure what you are asking. The IBO should obviously sell as much as they possibly can.
If you can speed this up by getting to a point you would like to make, that would be helpful. Thanks.
Sorry if that last sentence sounded rude. I just want to make sure you don't think I meant it in a disrespectful way, I am just unsure as to why you are asking me these questions. I am assuming you have some point you are going to make.
I don't have an exact answer for you. I would only try my best to ensure that the investment from the IBO is reasonably related to their sales volume and profits. So I try to keep their overhead low which gives them the best chance for profitability so that they can reinvest a portion of their profits towards their business overhead.
Okay, fair enough.
Let me revise the question, Chris.
How much would a new IBO have to personally sell to cover $200 a month in tools expenses?
Chris said:
Roger, thanks for the advice, I am already on a gameplan with my mentor. Honestly when it comes to sponsoring advice I would rather take it from my mentor than a critic who has a negative view of the business. But thanks anyhow :)
Ouch Chris!! Want your dagger back? I can almost reach it if I twist just right. I wasn't giving you advice... I was asking why you hadn't followed Dexter's teachings.
Sorry to have been so nice.
It's funny how words are read. I didn't mean that comment in any negative way towards you Roger. I actually like our conversations alot. I simply pointed out where I was getting my advice from and why. Nothing more.
I have a pretty good feeling about you from our debates. I didn't think that way at first when I went to your website and read your letter to TEAM. You sounded like a rude and negative guy who was very close minded. But now I see a different side. So I have become open minded to your ideas and perspective. Sorry if that offended you.
Dexter is not my mentor. So no, I do not follow his advice. He doesn't even know me by first name yet, and he doesn't have a clue about my business or personal life. So all that he can offer is general advice and principles, which are good, but I have a mentor giving me specific advice about my exact situation. Does that clear that up for you?
Okay, fair enough.
Let me revise the question, Chris.
How much would a new IBO have to personally sell to cover $200 a month in tools expenses?
Why would the new IBO have to "just" personally sell to cover those investments? Those investments are to support sales and sponsoring. So they would sell and sponsor to cover the investment.
There are many different ways that this can be done. It could be done by 300pv through personal shopping, members and clients, and 3 frontline IBO's at 300pv each. That would generate around $250.
That could be done in one month. Or a few, depending on the IBO's.
But there are many different strategies that should be considered when building a business. Like should you get profitable as fast as possible or secure one leg at a time. Does an IBO have little income but lots of time to invest, or is it the other way around. Are they at a distance or near a local group. So each situation is different.
That's not the question Chris. The question is "How much would an IBO have to personally sell (assume selling at IBO cost for the bonus) to cover the $200/month in tools expenses?"
In your proposed scenario, how many people would he need to sponsor to cover the $200/month in tools?
Lawdawg wrote: "In your proposed scenario, how many people would he need to sponsor to cover the $200/month in tools?"
> I answered this already. Re-read the post. I clearly gave an example of one way an IBO could register IBO's and sell products to cover those expenses. There are multiple ways to do this, which gives no one exact answer to your question.
Lawdawg wrote: "How much would an IBO have to personally sell (assume selling at IBO cost for the bonus) to cover the $200/month in tools expenses?"
> Well first of all, if the IBO was just intending to personally sell products, then they wouldn't have the same monthly tool costs. I was under the impression that you wanted estimated tool costs for an IBO who wanted to both sell products and register IBO's.
So their overhead would be much different if they only wanted to sell products. I would say anywhere from $50-$300/mo depending on what inventory they wanted to have on hand.
If they were just selling products, then we would also assume they were marking them up at retail cost to make income. Because otherwise they would only start making a small percentage on the volume of each sale. Without leverage, the IBO would need to sell all 7500 points themselves in order to get a 25% check back on the volume. So it would only make sense for them to retail products.
So to answer your question, it would depend on what they were selling and how much they were marking it up.
If they sold nine-to-five coffee to a carwash for example, then they could just make one sale and easily have their profit exceed their expenses. At my local carwash I was able to sell the coffee at a 100% markup and still beat the cost they were paying for farmer brothers.
On top of that, they just order the coffee online themselves so that one deal is a residual sale. I do close to nothing to service the account. And they threw in free carwashes for me. So I see them every couple of weeks and they say their customers are much happier with the better tasting coffee.
I didn't need any inventory to make that sale, so my overhead was zero. So there is no exact answer to your question.
Thanks for the non-answer Chris. Is this how you teach your downline to build the business?
Lawdawg, you need to learn a thing or 2 about respect. I gave you a detailed answer and have continued to provide answers for you and you call them "non-answers". This is just rude. Anybody reading can obviously see that I have clearly answered you and gone into great description.
I am a fair man, so please show me how I didn't answer your question and I will see if I can be more clear. I am not sure the motive behind your question in the first place, so why should I answer it? Why don't you come forward with your point instead of just continuing to ask questions and then say I have non-answers.
I mean seriously, is that the best you could come up with? That I give non-answers? Come on.
Let's see your questions:
"How much would a new IBO have to personally sell to cover $200 a month in tools expenses?"
I answered by explaining that the IBO would not have $200 in tool investments if they were just going to personally sell. So I gave a realistic example of selling/sponsoring instead. This was a more accurate answer to the question.
Then you asked "In your proposed scenario, how many people would he need to sponsor to cover the $200/month in tools?"
But I had already answered that question in the previous response by saying: "There are many different ways that this can be done. It could be done by 300pv through personal shopping, members and clients, and 3 frontline IBO's at 300pv each. That would generate around $250."
These are not non-answers. If you are looking for a certain answer to make a point, then why don't you just make it instead of running in circles with your questions here. You are re-asking me questions that I have already given answers to.
Saying "thanks for the non-answer" means that you are not reading my responses. So maybe you just don't care and are playing with me, and in that case let's just end the games.
Fine, that's the best I'll get from you I guess.
Let's assume for the time being (until you retract it in your next post) that you promote each person spending $200/month on tools to recoup that expense by recruiting three more people and realizing a net profit of $50. Each of those three are spending $200 on tools as well following your "system." That's $600 spent in order to make a profit of $50 or a net loss to the group of $550 with 75% of the participants losing money - assuming you get three people to do 300pv.
"But wait" Chris says . . . "each of those losing money can recruit their own downline." So each of the three recruits three more(9). Now they are in the black $50 each (total $150) while their downline is spending $1800 for tools for a net loss of $1,650 with 69% of your downline losing money.
"But wait" Chris says . . . "each of those losing money can recruit their own downline." So each of the nine recruits three more (27). Now they are in the black $50 each (total $450) while their downline is spending $5400 for tools for a net loss of $5,050 with 68% of your downline losing money.
"But wait" Chris says . . . "each of those losing money can recruit their own downline." So each of the three recruits three more (81). Now they are in the black $50 each (total $1350) while their downline is spending $16,200 for tools for a net loss of $14,850 with 67% of your downline losing money.
And it goes on and on with people only making money because they recruit others to lose money underneath them.
You are correct. I've lost respect for you. Everytime you evade answering a question, it's always somebody else's fault. Quit being a whining child.
Your answer was a non-answer because you do not indicate what you expect an IBO to do. I know you have expectations and that you teach a way of building the business to your downline. Here you give me a bullshi*t line about "there are many ways" and give an example. If I base my post on your example, you will say "oh that was just an example . . . what I really tell people is . . . " or some other crap, so you can try to evade being held responsible for what you say when you get called on it. In the meantime you'll just whine and whine about how you are being persecuted.
Grow up, Chris.
Lawdawg,
Look man, I took time to answer your questions in a polite and reasonable manner and have been a gentleman in our debate here.
I even understand the point you are trying to make. Why can't you just debate it without having to have the attitude towards me?
Just because you put things in writing the way you do does not mean it is the only logical perspective.
Case in point. I said that this was just an example of one way to do this. There are many ways. Then you respond by saying that was a BS answer and that you know I only have one way of teaching my team. What are you talking about?
I set people up differently based on their goals. Some people just want to make a few hundred extra per month. Some just want to do sales. Some don't want to plug into the system. Some have skills at working multiple legs. Others should just work one at a time. Some should go 9 wide, or 3 wide, or just 1 wide.
There are also different personality types to factor in and not everybody receives my analytical training well, so I have learned to have different approaches for different people.
I do not just have one way to teach. Why do you assume that of me? Why do you have to assume I am lying? And then you try to set it up by saying I will respond like this. But it is the truth, and I believe in the truth. I have been nothing but truthful with you and the rest of the critics.
You are right that some people lose money in this type of business model. Some people also make money. Some do it faster than others. But all have the same opportunity. Not everyone will do it. I am content with some losing money. They don't have to, and it is a choice for them.
Then there are many factors that you are not considering. It never works out just how you illustrated. For instance, I have a new person in depth who already has over 500pv this month and is not on the system. She sold gift and incentive brochures to relatives. There are many examples of stuff like this.
Then there are also examples of larger families who shop hundreds of points per month. So there is no consistent amount of volume per IBO.
I saw the plan. It looked good. I researched it for a while. Decided to get started. Got profitable quickly. And have been getting checks every month since. Simple.
I saw my odds for success at 100%, and they were.
I guess what you are trying to say is that each IBO should personally sell enough to cover their own overhead right? Not a bad plan. I will even consider implementing some training along those lines.
I am a very reasonable man lawdawg, although you and others might not think so.
We just had a training on how to contact and I used a few principles I learned through debating with you critics. I told them that many people critical of the business have seen things this way....and that we want to make sure we do things this way...
Sort of like the Rich Devos Directly Speaking tape.
I am also a big advocate of everybody reading and understanding the business rules and conduct. More so now after debating with critics than before. Although I was before as well.
So rather than just push me off as some hyped up IBO with non-answers, why can't you just realize that I am making an honest attempt to express how I see the business and work on implementing positive solutions.
Once critics understood this of me, they would see that I could implement ideas and solutions to help better the business. This is why debate is necessary and I am a supporter of this blog and post here frequently.
Because the critics don't have it totally right, and either do the IBO's. But a combination of views on each issue gives the ultimate perspective necessary to implement change when needed.
Lawdawg, quick question for you.
What percentage of people losing money in a model like this is acceptable to you?
The plan for an MLM (including recommended expenses, training, etc.) should be for 100% to be profitable at all times. Some won't sell a thing. But what you propose is that people initially should lose money spending more than they make and recruit more people to lose money to offset those losses. That guarantees that the majority of participants in your scheme are losing money, no matter how big your pyramid scheme gets.
So in the beginning it is not normal for a business to lose money? The cost is recouped through a process of sales/sponsoring. The strategy for how that is done can vary. I personally got profitable from a blend of the two and that is what I teach.
In our organization we teach to get as many members as possible. When an IBO shows the plan and the prospect is not interested in the business, then we offer the member plan. That has been a great way to add member/client volume and this strategy works great.
I agree with much that you have to say lawdawg, and also disagree with much of it.
In this case, the people in my organization are happy, and if they are not growing and getting profitable, it is not that they don't know what to do, or that they are not trained, it is because they aren't doing what they know they need to do. No matter how good of a teacher someone is, you can't force someone to sell/sponsor. So there will always be people losing money.
At least in our organization they aren't saying it's because of a lack of teaching or education. So I think that is a benefit and something to be proud of. The people that choose to do the work and move on are having success. Our system is great. And I am very excited for every single person on my team!
You just don't get it Chris. Other business aren't based on recruiting and they don't make their money recruiting new people into the scheme to lose money offsetting their losses.
So as a RECRUITING BUSINESS, it must show a profitable business model WITHOUT RECRUITING. Otherwise, you are duplicating the losses and only creating a profit for a few because of the large number of duplications of a non-proifitable business.
Congrats. Your pyramid is negative Chris.
You are duplicating an unprofitable business model. Will some eventually turn a profit by creating enough of these unprofitable businesses to offset their losses? Sure. But it doesn't change the fact that you are duplicating a money-losing venture. As a result, it is a mathematical certainty that the vast majority of participants will lose money.
It's a stone cold, dead lead pipe lock that most of your downline will lose money for a small handful of people to offset their losses and or profit. And those profits will be grossly disproportionate to the losses suffered by the masses that fuel them.
Nice business you have there, Chris.
"In this case, the people in my organization are happy, and if they are not growing and getting profitable, it is not that they don't know what to do, or that they are not trained, it is because they aren't doing what they know they need to do."
Wait a sec, Chris, every new recruit following your advice (spend $200 upfront on tools and $200/month on tools) will be losing money until they build a pretty sizable downline to offset those losses.
So even if everyone does exactly what you tell them to do, Chris, almost everybody in your group will be losing money.
It's simple math.
Did you know that a new law suit is filed against Walmart every 7 minutes? But you people still spend money there, don't you? Do you see where I'm going with this? All businesses, private & public, have one thing in common. They're ran by people. Is that news? People are not perfect. Blaming an entire corporation because of something a person said or did just isn't fair, in my opinion. If you weren't strong enough to build a business for yourself, enjoy settling for the rest of your life and just move on. Don't blame someone else for your short-comings. The fact that you don't get what you want out of life is no one's fault but your own. Take responsibility. I've never read one of these blogs before and it's amazing to me to see so many grown adults spreading so much negativity like you're in grade school again. Think about what you'd want your children to be doing as adults. I'm just glad you weren't my parents.
tossers all of you
Why am I not surprised by any of this?
We knew that Amway trains the JAMS "arbitrators", and that without their Amway contract, JAMS is probably fiscally insolvent. What was obvious through inference is now becoming a little more clear through observation.
Nothing new, but maybe the proof will finally be in the pudding, and some of these cases will finally be allowed to see the light of day and the inside of a courtroom!
Truthfully, I'm surprised it hasn't happened before this. We've all heard that 'contracts are written to be broken', and howm many pre-nups, for example, are ultimately overruled?
That's all this BSMAA is...a pre-nup. So that when the unsuspecting IBO wakes up to discover he has wedded a monster, he is financially trapped, and at best can simply walk away broke but wiser.
Posted by: CK | November 13, 2004 6:39 AM