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November 23, 2004
Advice From Shawn Derrick
By QBlog in
Disgruntled IBO Shawn Derrick sent a letter (pdf) to Dick DeVos and the IBOAI in January, 2001. Derrick complains that he was deceived by Fred Harteis about the Quixtar (and Amway) income opportunity and the truth about the tool business. The following excerpts provide a glimpse into Derrick's complaint:
...On numerous occasions, I remember Fred saying from the stages of major functions, something to the effect of, "We don't hold these events (functions) for us. We could be anywhere in the world tonight. We put these functions on for you (attending IBOs), so that you can see what you have in your hands (the potential of the business)...After reading such letters, I generally ask two questions: 1.) Is the author crazy? 2.) Is the author a lone voice?...I had no idea that the bulk of the income and lifestyle of many Diamonds comes not from building a profitable business powered by Amway/Quixtar, as most IBOs are led to believe, but through the profits generated by function attendance and the sale of BSMs...
...I have a huge problem with the fact that my upline's wonderful system teaches IBOs to disregard Amway/Quixtar policies that are designed to keeep the business from operating like a pyramid (we are taught to ignore the 10 customer rule, the 70% rule, etc.)...
...I offer only one piece of advice: "Be sure your sins will find you out."
I ask those questions because it's the most convenient rebuttal that Quixtar apologists offer when confronted with such complaints. "He's just angry he lost money. Where are all the other letters or complaints? A big business like Quixtar is bound to get lots of complaints, all businesses do. Maybe the guy just wants attention." I could go on because I've heard them all dozens of times.
I don't know Shawn Derrick and so I can't speak about his motives for complaining about Fred Harteis and his tool business but I know that Derrick's voice isn't alone. There are other IBOs who feel the same way about Quixtar, the tool business and Fred Harteis. Are you one of them?
Comments
As a former IBO that is not renewing for 2005, I can agree with Shawn that much of the teaching was directly opposite to the rules of conduct.
This is unfortunate becasue the very things that were discouraged (retailing products, developing clients and members) were the things that would have helped the people in my group be profitable, which none of them ever were.
Chris:
Ever heard of Quixtar's "legal fiction" argument?
lawDawg
Sorry Chris, the rose colored lenses don't work on us.
The issue is not that Fred or anyone else "can profit share in the success of the events" - the issue is and continues to be that these people are making the MAJORITY of their income from a 'training and motivation' system, while implying that their lifestlye can be had through building a Quixtar business.
When you combine that with the fact that - despite all this wonderful training and motivation only a tiny fraction of people are making a decent income (look at Quixtar's own income disclosures) and the answer is clear:
The functions and tools are benefitting the kingpins a whole hec of a lot more than they are benfitting the rank and file IBO's.
The functions ARE "the business". Period. There is a mountain of evidence, going back over twenty years, that the BSM business provides more revenue to the leadership than AmQuix itself. If Rich DeVos was willing to state this on tape and in depositions, then why should anyone accept the musings of an anonymous AmQuix apologist on this topic?
Full disclosure, detailing the entire scope of the BSM business, would simply be a starting point. Ideally, AmQuix would produce retail-oriented training material and distribute it for free - much the way that most legitimate companies do.
But hey, if you want to perpetuate this fraud for your personal benefit, go right ahead - don't let little things like honesty and ethics get in your way.
Quixmire wrote: "the issue is and continues to be that these people are making the MAJORITY of their income from a 'training and motivation' system, while implying that their lifestlye can be had through building a Quixtar business."
Ok, Quixmire, I don't think anyone is arguing that a Diamond makes more from the training system than from their pv checks. There might be rare cases where this does not happen, but let's assume that the majority of Diamonds and above all make more from the system than from pv.
So how exactly do they imply that their lifestyle can be had from Quixtar income, and if it is implied, then are they wrong for suggesting that?
I mean, I look at my Diamond as an example. He gets things corporate approved before he releases them. Recently he has put together a lifestlye video and got it approved.
So it sounds like your problem is with the company for approving a video that would show a lifestyle that was a combination of pv income, tool income and investment income. Right?
So what if a Diamond didn't participate in the tool profits. But that Diamond took their pv income and leveraged it in real estate and made most of their money from real estate. Would their lifestyle be misleading to a potential IBO income?
Where do you draw the line? What if the Diamond made twice as much from pv checks than from tool income? Would that be acceptable in your eyes? I am just trying to get an understanding of your point of view. Honestly. Because I can't see it the way you do. But I am trying.
How about this. Give me an example of what would be considered allright in your view, so we have a starting point. Then the same situation but instead of tool profits, the Diamond has leveraged their Quixtar income into real estate and so forth. What do you think?
Chris,
I think the real issue with all of it isn't whether or not your diamond makes more off of the system or the products but whether or not he'd be a diamond at all without the system.
This is the deception of guys like Harteis. They profess that the business made them what they are today when in fact they wouldn't be what they are today without the system. That is lying, Chris. Your asking us to tell you how that is wrong? Just because Quixtar looks the other way with it doesn't make it right.
Jason wrote: "They profess that the business made them what they are today when in fact they wouldn't be what they are today without the system. That is lying, Chris"
That is speculation Jason. I believe that my Diamond really started having success when we he implemented a training system into his organization. So this is true in my case from what I have seen. But without tool profits I believe he still would have become a Diamond, but the system was still crucial in that venture.
Chris,
Have you ever heard Quixtar's "legal fiction" argument?
lawDawg
Chris:
I think you miss the point because you want to.
The kingpins make the MAJORITY of their income from the IBO's purchases of tools and seminar tickets.
This is a closed system in that participating in the profit is ONLY available to those who the kingpins approve. The terms of participating in this system are secret. The fact that the kingpins make most of their income from the tools system is hidden from new IBO's. It is not presented in the plan for what it is.
In addition, the products have NO VALUE outside the business, and cannot be resold outside the business. They exist only to "train and motivate" the IBO's.
Do they? To a limited extent, yes. They help with self-images and attitude in the beginning. But do they help the IBO's achieve profitability?
The numbers say no. So who benefits?
As to the relative percentages of where people's income comes from once they have any profit to invest, that is a moot point. I want to know what income I can make from QUIXTAR. What I do with the money after that is my business. IF diamond X happened upon a great real estate deal, and made a couple of million, and now is living high on the hog off that, should we say that was due to building quixtar or due to his luck or skill at realestate?
We could debate that all day, as you are well aware. But it sidesteps the issues. Common sense dictates that MOST REASONABLE CONSUMERS (and BTW, that's the test the FTC uses for Ads) will believe, unless it is made very clear, that the income is coming from Quixtar.
Quixmire wrote: (speaking about the system)"...But do they help the IBO's achieve profitability?...The numbers say no. So who benefits?"
I have looked at the same numbers and they say yes. You are looking at them from a pessimistic point of view. I would say that the average "active" IBO plugged into the training system is profitable. The numbers lean that way more than the other.
So the IBO greatly benefits from the training system. From my personal experience I have seen IBO's benefit much more from the training system than those who build without it.
Quixmire wrote: "I want to know what income I can make from QUIXTAR."
Quixtar has corporate approved average annual incomes that do not include any extra sources of income. These are presented in every single plan. People get involved with the business based on these figures. And they are very, very large and sufficient to live a very nice lifestyle.
The tool business is a seperate business run by IBO's and can be an additional source of income once you achieve Platinum level and above. This can not be shown in the plan because it would be mixing business.
Likewise, a Diamond should not make reference to an income that includes both pv checks and bsm checks when presenting the Q plan because that would be mixing business. In our organization this is not done, but I have seen it done a few times.
And I have seen many other organization plans. It seems that everybody is using corporate approved figures. I can understand how some IBO's might think that the higher they state the potential incomes are, that the better chance they have of registering someone, but I have not found this to be true.
And this can then be in violation of the rules, and so it shouldn't be done. People should just follow the Q rules when presenting the opportunity. Our organization is working hard to make sure everyone does that, but I am sure there are many who don't follow the guidelines 100%.
--
Lawdawg,
I am not an expert on the "legal fiction" argument. I think it has something to do with the company believing that every IBO should not be included in the tool profit, but only the higher pins. And that the tool profits shouldn't be advertised to IBO's. I could be way off, but something like that right?
From what I can tell, Quixtar is very open to looking for a solution to issues that come up regarding BSM business. For many years they have searched for several solutions but have not implemented an effective one yet.
Of course there are flaws with the current system. Nobody could argue well against that. But at the same time, there are major benefits from the current system. My life has changed as a result of tools being created and offered. So stopping the tool production would be a bad thing, but reforming the process would be a good thing.
I have no problem with an IBO making the majority of their money from the BSM income. There is nothing wrong with this. I agree that if a new IBO is lead to believe that 100% of the Diamond's income came from pv checks and no additional sources, then there is a problem that needs to be solved.
Just because I used common sense when I first got started and thought, "what wealthy person has 100% of their income coming in from just one source?" doesn't mean that the average person might assume it's all from Quixtar.
I remember when I first met my upline I asked what types of investments he was into to leverage his money, and he told me of several investment opportunities he had done very well with. So for me this was never an issue.
But for others it seems that it is. In our organization I am not aware of somebody who does not know that the Diamonds make the majority of their income from BSM's.
Although I did not feel that the Dateline/Quixtar episode was put together with a respectable perspective to both sides, they did at least push this issue to the front, and now many more IBO's are aware of the tool income potential for Diamonds. So I would be surprised to meet an organization where the majority were not aware of this these days.
The solution I agree with: All groups that plug into Internet Services Corp. for their BSM's should agree on one compensation plan, get that plan approved, and then display that plan on their team websites for all IBO's to read and understand.
Diamonds could be a little more clear about how their lifestyle is a combination of incomes that became available because of the Quixtar opportunity as a foundation that we all have as an equal opportunity, or something along those lines.
Chris,
You are only partially right about the legal fiction argument. You should research it. Quixtar cannot do what you suggest without folding what they believe is their best defense to lawsuits over BSMs.
Read the TIF correspondence and listen to Andy Andrews' explanation of the issue.
Chris wrote:
"From what I can tell, Quixtar is very open to looking for a solution to issues that come up regarding BSM business. For many years they have searched for several solutions but have not implemented an effective one yet."
Seems to me it shouldn't be that hard to implement a solution.
If AmQuix/Alticor, whatever their name is this month, forced directs to prove retail sales before issuing checks, then the kingpins would have to begin promoting retailing over 'use 100, eat 100, sell 100', or whatever 'system' each individual LOS is preaching (assuming the corp. also enforces the FTC-approved guideline, which, of course, it doesn't).
That would resolve the issue in several ways:
1) people who get in thinking they 'don't have to sell' would be eliminated, which would elimante a vast number of BSM purchasers.
2) people who stay in and SELL (assuming they could find enough of a market for the over-priced products) could actually show a profit, even if they are still purchasing some BSMs.
3) add to the rules caveats such as no more preaching things like "tools are optional, and so is success", which is currently a semantical argument to get around the existing rules which say kingpins can't require tool purchases.
4) finally, AmQuix would have to actually enforce that rule, plus others that are currently on the books but ignored (including the aforementioned 70% rule). This enforcement would include kicking out anybody (and I don't care if it's gramma or Yager) who doesn't follow the rules.
AmQuix won't do this, because without IBOs with visions of diamonds dancing in their heads, they have virtually no consumer base.
It's a symbiotic, parasitic relationship.
Lawdawg, there is always a possibility to reform things where all parties involved can come to an agreement. Finding that medium is usually very difficult, but also very possible. I will look into this research at some point.
After all your research, do you have a good solution that would benefit all parties involved that they would consider?
Chris said: "I would say that the average "active" IBO plugged into the training system is profitable."
This is impossible according to Quixtar's own numbers and the costs of being "plugged into" the system.
On the SA4400, Q states that the average income for "active" IBO's is $115.00 per month. But let's say, (as I'm sure you will) that their idea of active is lame, and your people who are plugged in are doing much more. Let's say, your people are doing TWICE quixtar's figure, so they are making $230. per month.
4 tapes/cd's at $6.00 each =24.00 min.
4 training sessions per month at $6.00 per person for a couple = 48.00
4 open meetings per month at $6.00 per open for a couple = 48.00
1/3 of the very low cost of $400. for a weekend seminar once a quarter = 133.00
We're already up to $253.00, and that doesn't include babysitting, travel, other tapes/cd's, any books, literature, packs, etc.
Are the people in your group making four or five times the average??? or more?
We know from the former attorney general of the state of wisconsin that DD's were making a NET income of NEGATIVE $900. per year.
http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/ftcletter.htm
And what, the non-DD's in your group make more money that DD's???
CK, I love hearing actual solutions, so I thank you for taking the time to respond. However, there are many obvious flaws with these solutions.
The vast majority of LOS do not have Platinums paying out bonus checks. This is done from the company directly. The company currently has a guideline where you need to meet the member/client rule in order to get a check.
The flaw is that anyone can just claim that rule without needing to provide evidence. Do you have a better way around this?
Btw, what is wrong with "buy 100, eat 100, sell 100"? That sounds like good advice.
I agree that no IBO should ever say "you don't have to sell". I do not agree that kicking out IBO's who violate a rule should be the punishment. I would think something like the corp withholding a paycheck or something like that could be a better punishment.
But even then, it would have to be proven that the IBO violated a rule, and often times proof is hard to come by. Then on top of that, things are often said in sarcasm, fact, comedy, or taken out of perspective or misunderstood.
So while 99% of an audience might totally understand and have it make sense, there will always be some that won't understand it. So this is a tough issue to regulate. I am open to hearing ideas though.
--
Quixmire. You raise good points. I know that by saying the average "active" IBO is profitable that I will stir up all the critics who have for years been saying that the average IBO loses money. They won't admit that they were basing that assumption on false facts.
One thing you forgot in your analysis. What percentage of "active" IBO's are plugged into the system? You can't possibly do the math without that vital statistic or at least a reasonable estimate.
So here is the point. If 100% of "active" IBO's were plugged into the system, with average investments of $200/mo, then yes, the average "active" IBO would not yet be profitable. But we know for a fact that 100% of "active" IBO's are NOT plugged into the system. This percentage is probably closer to 20% and even then we have no hard evidence. At 20% it would mean that the average "active" IBO is making money.
If there is any math wizzes out there that want to prove me wrong on this, go ahead. Try doing math with 20% plugged in, and even 50% plugged in just for examples. See what figures you come up with.
The bottom line is that a critic cannot make the claim that the average "active" IBO is losing money. There is no evidence to support that claim.
I have heard so many claims like this from critics. How about this one. The total number of IBO's has not gone up since the 70's. Well, yes it has. And then they quote a press release which says 340k IBO's. But that press release was stating "active" IBO's and was just a rough estimate.
And this should have been obvious for critics because many of them are very savvy and intelligent. So why was I the only one that questioned that article? Why was I the only one did the math when Ken McDonald said on voicemail that over 25k were registering each month.
Any logical person would do the math and see that the critics numbers did not add up there. 340k was just too low of a number. But will they take back their statements? I hope so, but not likely.
Just like the 95% failure rate of small businesses. The critics have been attacking IBO's for that one for years. They try to claim that it is not true by showing survival statistics for new "employer" businesses instead of all total small businesses. So that statistic is a completely different one and doesn't prove the 95% failure rate wrong.
And then I come along and link right to the SBA's own site where they clearly have the 95% failure rate written. And this statistic was not started by Quixtar, but is used by the majority of Americans. In fact, if you went to your local college and asked business class students what were the statistics of business failure, they would recite the 95% statistic. Because it is taught in school!
So my point is this. Sometimes IBO's are wrong, and sometimes critics are wrong. So both sides need watchdogs because the information is not always accurate. So someone should not believe everything they hear on these websites because much of it is not true. But plenty of it is. But even if something is true, one should here both perspectives on the issue.
I would think the critics should encourage IBO's to bring these issues up to their upline and see what they have to say. I have seen some critics promote that and I agree with it. This way the IBO gets both perspectives and can make an educated decision about their business.
Chris -
Exactly what school quoted the "95%" failure rate? I have been in two programs in the last several years, and both of them referenced that number for the purposes of debunking it. Please provide the name of the institution, the class and the instructor.
Chris, you slay me. How in the world can you profess to be this gracious advocater for your downline and have no problems with what was said by Freddie boy?
Have you even read the Haugen lawsuit?
These diamonds and kingpin leaders are ripping people off. That's what I call selling things to people that they could either get cheaper somewhere else. Oh yes, not YOUR group, you use the library.
Man, are you ever going to be depressed when you decide to see the truth. You sound so intelligent, and yet come across so naive and accepting of what your system leaders tell you.
Hardly anyone makes any $ off of the products. You said yourself, its a business about people. You have downright refused to sell me anything. What other business in the world does that?
Even a bottom feeding drug dealer can buy something at a store, but I can't buy from yours?
I offer to buy stuff from you and Jen's business and get called an idiot. I'm not hurt or offended, this is proving my point, and I've been called worse by better.
This is my point: The money is not made with the products. It's made by the tools. If the products were worth moving, you would not care who would buy, just like a REAL business. If it was worth your while to move products, and you weren't sure that I'd laugh my ass off at what it was going to cost, you or Jen would sell me stuff.
Yes, I don't think you have a REAL business, at all. The money is made with the tools.
Not Product, Tools. Use your head. I know you're not Dumb.
Mike,
I already told Chris once to return to his 'business' school and get his money back, because he was a victim of fraud.
Chris,
"Why was I the only one did the math when Ken McDonald said on voicemail that over 25k were registering each month."
Yes. You were the only one who did the math, because I'm not signed up for the 'premium' voicemail service. Sorry I missed out.
"After all your research, do you have a good solution that would benefit all parties involved that they would consider?"
Yes. Review the transcripts of Rich DeVos's "Directly Speaking"
http://www.amquix.info/amway_directly_speaking.html
Rocket,
So what I hear you say is that if a business holds the right to refuse service to someone then they are not a "real" business. Give me a break.
It is not the business Rocket, it is you. I do no want to do business with you. If I met someone on a plane I would gladly consider doing business with them. I don't have a store where people come in all day and buy things. Nor do I want one.
Instead, I choose my customers wisely and service them. If I don't think it is a valuable use of my time, or that customer is too much of a hassle, I will tell them to shop somewhere else. And you my friend, would be too much of a hassle.
But beyond that, I would be violating Q's rules by soliciting my business online in this fashion. And since I am making a very honest effort to follow their outlined rules, it only makes sense to turn down your offer.
But even further beyond that is the issue that I don't believe you are really interested in being a customer no matter what you say. I think you are just trying to badger IBO's into admitting their prices are not competitive when they are.
I have given examples of competitive prices and you have not commented on them. Why not?
Rocket wrote: "That's what I call selling things to people that they could either get cheaper somewhere else."
What are you talking about? Books & Tapes? These are priced very fairly and I never hear anybody say these are too expensive. This is a ridiculous argument. What you say and what I experience are 2 totally different things.
This is the lowest overhead of almost any business. It can be funded on personal income without even the need for a loan. This is great!
The books/cds/functions have been very educational and impactful for me. They have helped me get more profitable and have grown me as a person to the point where I am more confident, have more posture, and am successful when it comes to business.
I would have gladly paid much more for the tools to help me in those areas.
--
Porkchop, thanks for illustrating how an IBO who is not plugged into the training system might miss out on valuable things. Even more of a reason for IBO's to plug into the tools system.
My voicemail from my previous business cost me more. I was able to get a 800 number but the monthly charges on that were much more. So my voicemail through this business has been the best voicemail investment I have ever made.
I am able to communicate with my team through voice communication on a time schedule that I create. I get the latest info from the company, as well as product testimonials, sales techniques, motivation, inspiration, meeting changes, tedious details, etc. But the best part of voicemail is the communication back and forth between my personal team and myself.
Voicemail has been vital and I have found it to be essential in success. Too bad the tools have to be optional :) Because so many people don't move on and they haven't even plugged into something as simple as voicemail that would help them greatly with their business.
--
Lawdawg, thanks for the link. I have heard the tape, but like I said earlier, I appreciate solutions. Would you paraphrase the portion that you felt outlined the solution that you agree with?
Lawdawg, do you specifically mean putting BV on tools?
Chris, I guess it would be considered a hassle to have a customer who didn't want to pay through the who-ha for your products.
The books and tapes have made you a better postured person you say? Well then, that's great, so is it a business about moving products or a self help program?
Very interesting that you say I'm "badgering" you about your prices. That says to me that you know the prices are too high, when its considered badgering.
I AM interested in buying stuff from you, and henceforth and herewithin, let the folowing be known:
Chris did NOT solicit me on this site. I have asked him if he would sell me products. That takes care of any rules violations, no? I WOULD LIKE TO BUY FROM HIM, AND HE DID NOT APPROACH ME TO DO SO, I WENT TO HIM.
But we all know that it is not that Chris doesn't want to sell stuff to me at a competitive price, its that he can't.
Twice as much for coffee, yep, quite the deal. Tell you what, if your prices are even 10% MORE than what I would spend after shipping, I'm in.
Otherwise it's obvious that this is not about moving product, its about the filthy disgusting tools that everyone who ever is upset about Amway remembers being had by.
I won't be a hassle Chris, I'm serious. What say you? 10% MORE than what I would spend anyway.
I believe your next post will clearly solidify my point. You won't do it, because you can't compete. It's not your fault, you just can't.
Actually, it was more in reference to enforcing a limit on the amount of tools that can be sold by AMOs - Rich's 20% guideline (so long as it's understood as 20% of the kingpins' income).
Truthfully, though, they should just be banned entirely. If this is an honest retail business where one can make money off the sales made by his or her downline, the upline should be content to make their money by motivating their distributors to sell more products. That way there is a cost-benefit system built into the tools system that currently doesn't exits.
That would also result in a retail sales business. Eliminate the profit motive in the tools, eliminate the conflict of interest, and you'll go a long way toward cleaning up Quixtar's image.
lawDawg
Chris said "The bottom line is that a critic cannot make the claim that the average "active" IBO is losing money. There is no evidence to support that claim."
NO, I said THE AVERAGE ACTIVE IBO WHO IS PLUGGED INTO A SYSTEM is losing money, even if he/she/they are making TWICE the stated income of the AVERAGE ACTIVE IBO.
I'm basing that on what I know to be average expenses from personal experience, and the numbers quixtar gives.
And this whole thing started because YOU made a claim you can't back up: YOU SAID:
"I would say that the average "active" IBO plugged into the training system is profitable. The numbers lean that way more than the other."
YOU explain how the numbers are leaning! I think they are leaning all right.
Oh here it comes. I can almost smell Chris's next post as to how the tools make the IBO's more motivated to go out and just get it done.
The tools are invaluable to getting to the next level, blah, blah, blah....so much better because of the tools, blah, blah, blah.........postured when dealing with people.......blah, blah, blah,............life's lessons.......blah,.....benefits cannot be measured.............AD NAUSEUM.
They are the business. How many times does this need to be said, Chris? I know that you know it man. You are simply being obtuse.
If you were trying to move products, you would. Jeez, I'm willing to spend MORE for stuff just to be amicable, and because some of the products are good. I'd really like to try XS, but how the heck can I when nobody will sell me anything?
Oh, right, its about people, not products
Lawdawg,
Good response. Definitely worthy of consideration. Well put.
As long as there are still BSM's created that are able to impact people's lives the way that mine has been impacted, then I am all for it. I have learned so much from the system and it has helped me greatly as well as my team.
If there is a way to do this where the profit is evenly divided between distributors and the plan is approved and fully legal and implemented successfully, I am all for it.
There are several flaws with that plan of course, but it is one of the best I have heard yet.
Would there still be speaking fees for Diamonds and above for traveling and speaking?
What things would we do to motivate the Diamonds and above to not retire so that we could still have access to their mentorship and experience? I know that the tool income has helped keep many big pins around and that has helped.
Who would manufacture the tapes and obviously that company would profit right? Are you suggesting that Q should be in complete charge of manufacturing and distributing tools? So basically Q just takes this opp away from the Diamonds and makes money on it themselves?
Although there are flaws, there is also good reasoning behind Rich's philosophy. Thanks for clarifying that response.
--
Rocket, this is turning into comedy. I gave a detailed explanation in response to your comments. Yet you still persist and won't accept what I say. Since you won't accept it, what good is it for me to just keep repeating myself?
If you are looking for the cheapest products, then go somewhere else. We don't have the cheapest products. Where are you going to buy XS energy drinks cheaper? How about Nutrilite Vitamins? How about eSpring Water Purification systems? Nowhere.
But you can find energy drinks, vitamins, and water treatment systems other places. Some less expensive, some more expensive. But they all sell don't they.
Rocket, did you appreciate that I took the time to contact the company to get proof of an answer to a question you had for me? Or was that just another non-answer from me?
How about you Lawdawg? Looks like the number of distributors is higher than you wrote about on your website. Are you going to rewrite another post with different calculations now that your old ones were incorrect?
Are you willing to admit now that the total number of distributors has actually increased over the years and every year since the launch of Quixtar. This sounds like a growing business and not one that is saturated.
All this in a time of recession, war, bad economy, internet bubble bursting, bad media/dateline reports and more. Q still grew in numbers of sales and distributors every year.
So Rocket, why do you continue to try to get me to show you how my products are cheaper when I have always said that they are competitive? Competitive does not mean cheaper. They are fairly priced.
What about my examples?
nine to five vs. farmer brothers
xs vs. red bull at the gym
But beyond the many examples we could put together, the bottom line is that I have customers and so do people on my team. I have had no problem retailing products and I have NEVER had the objection of prices being too high.
I expect to eventually get that one, but I haven't had it yet. More common questions would be:
How safe is my CC online?
What about shipping?
What if I need something the same day?
What if I need to return it?
And so on. Look Rocket, give it up. There are many people I wouldn't want to do business with, and you are one of them. You have already put down my business, so why would I do business with you. That would be insane. I'm over it. Move along.
--
Rocket, in case you missed the bottom of my last post I will repeat it for you:
"Look Rocket, give it up. There are many people I wouldn't want to do business with, and you are one of them. You have already put down my business, so why would I do business with you. That would be insane. I'm over it. Move along."
If you really want XS, all you need to do is visit the Q website and order it yourself. You don't need an IBO to facilitate that transaction. If you think it costs too much, then don't buy it. This is a no brainer.
Chris, I don't think this is funny, I think its sad. Never said I was looking for the cheapest products. Value and cheap are not synonymous to me. Your products do not compare to similar brands, not necessarily cheaper brands. I already told you I'd pay 10% more, so its really not a money issue is it? It's a competitive pricing issue, which you are unable to deal with. It's out of your hands.
I DO appreciate you providing the answer that you did. It was rude of me not to acknowledge it, and I sincerely hope you accept my apology. BTW, you could also have gotten it from here:
http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_pr102600.html
Good discussion you are having with Lawdawg. I noticed this comment:
"What things would we do to motivate the Diamonds and above to not retire ...."
Isn't the income from moving products enough? Based on the plan, you can create an effortless residual income with the movement of products, no?
Obviously with that comment, you are aware that the wealth comes from elsewhere, not product.
You don't wish to do business with me because I do not blindly buy items without looking at the bottom line, how much it costs.
I have nothing but Dewalt power tools in my workshop. Other tools are cheaper, but are not as high quality in my opinion. I do not buy Cheap, I buy value.
Tools in Amway are the worst value I've ever seen in my life. At least if I'm done using my Dewalt Tools, I can sell them to someone else and get money back. Products are great, but not COMPETITIVE.
Its about products, right? The business is based on them. People are supposed to make money by moving them, right? Right?
Rocket wrote: "Isn't the income from moving products enough? Based on the plan, you can create an effortless residual income with the movement of products, no?"
Yes, this is true in one sense. A diamond could make several hundred thousand dollars per year from this volume, but then they could retire and live completely free. But then we wouldn't get the wisdom and teaching from them.
I am thankful that the Diamonds continue to teach. I would venture to say that many would continue to speak and teach and lead their organizations if there was no system profit, but there are also many that would likely just retire.
They system profit is very lucrative, but in order to really make big bucks in that business, it requires more of a time commitment from the Diamond. So it is motivating enough to keep the bigger pins around instead of retiring.
This is speculation of course, and without taking that income opportunity away, we don't know what they would do.
About the products, I am not sure why you are being so persistant about this. I am not looking to service you as a member. What is your point? Do you need me to take the time to go compare products between Quixtar and other stores before you are willing to relax on this topic?
Ok, you buy quality right? Prove a better quality vitamin company than Nutrilite. Or a better water purifier than eSpring. Do you see what I mean? Then there are products that are new and overwhelming positive response to them like XS energy drinks.
These products you cannot get anywhere else and they are very competitive.
Do you want me to keep going?
When it comes to sales, you are obviously saying that the most important thing is profit at the end of the day right? So in that case, if XS energy drinks creates more of a buzz than Red Bull, and sells 3-5x more, and each is marked up $1, then XS would be the better purchase for the business, regardless of what the cost of each can was. This is sales 101.
So what else do you want? The local stereo shop sells this same car stereo for $157. I checked it out, I liked it, and went online and sure enough ours was cheaper.
http://tinyurl.com/54nyl
But that stereo shop seems to be doing fine with sales. They are very profitable.
Anyhow, this could go on forever. You think the products are overpriced and I don't. Some agree with you and some don't. OK?
By the way Rocket, you sent me a link to amquix showing numbers greater than the 340k statistic that all the critics were using. Why did you wait til now to bring that up. Not like it mattered because these critics also likely read that stat and knew there were more than 340k distributors currently.
So why wouldn't the critics admit that? Just curious. It's because they are trying their best to make the statistics look worse than they are. If it is a positive growth stat for Quixtar, many critics won't use it or will just twist it to sound negative.
Don;t you get it Rocket? You have guys like lawblawg who are very intelligent and good at twisting Q related issues to sound negative. This post here on his website
http://tinyurl.com/3rype
talks about how IBO's are lying when they say that 90% of small business fail in their first 5 years. But that stat is clearly right here on the sba site:
http://tinyurl.com/6g88x
The truth is that a search on the SBA took me about 30 seconds to get that statistic. And somebody like lawdawg who is well researched obviously thought to try to verify it himself right? And the rest of the critics too right? So how come nobody pointed that out? Because it is more fun to call IBO's a bunch of liars and add to the negative view of the opportunity.
Or how lawdawg says in the same post that there are currently 340k distributors. He quotes the article of a journalist interviewing Ken Mcdonald. But aren't critics smart enough to verify these stats? How come I am the only one who put effort into verifying them? Why don't the critics care to be accurate?
And if that number is just including active IBO's, then the total number is higher of course, and then add on top of that members/clients and you have a much, much higher number.
I mean, do you really think lawdawg would update his post here http://tinyurl.com/6b2qp that tries to prove market saturation using numbers we have found to be incorrect?
Or do you think he will create a new post to reflect those numbers? What do you think?
Chris said:
"Do you want me to keep going?"
Can you? I didn't give you that link right away because I got a good laugh out of you scrambling to back up a claim, and it was something to hold over your head. hee-hee. I think it was a good joke. If you think it was mean, that's how I feel when I have to read one of your posts that go on and on, but never answer the question.
I have a friend in the health industry who knows of Double X, and concedes it is a very good supplement, but ridiculously overpriced, compared to what else is on the market. I don't know what he was comparing it to, nor do I care. I've known him all my life, he wouldn't lie to me.
As far as the diamond wisdom they offer, why is that needed? It's a business about moving products, right? Do these products not move by their own volition?
You say they are fantastic, right? Why don't non-Amway people buy them? I have NEVER known ONE person not in the business buy from an Amway Distributor.
You are starting to sound snarky my friend. Why? Is it maybe because deep down inside, you know I'm right.
At the end of the day, it's about moving products. Not about tools, or speakers, or seminars. That is what it was intended for. Self help is good, but it's foolish to mix it with income creation. Emotion tends to cloud the mind of logic, and no other company builds itself on emotion.
DeVos says this too, in Directly Speaking. MOST diamond income is from the tools. Funny, it's a product distribution business. Not moving products means no $$$.
That's why I find it so vexing that you don't care to move product :0o
Rocket wrote: "You are starting to sound snarky my friend. Why? Is it maybe because deep down inside, you know I'm right."
Or maybe it's because deep down inside you are playing games on here instead of being serious and distracting what could be reasonable debate over key issues.
Look Rocket, I try to answer your questions but you are unwilling to move on from something I have already answered. So I go into great detail to explain myself and that doesn't work for you either. So maybe just avoiding you altogether is the better solution?
I do care to move product, just not to you. I do fine with sales and my business is doing great. Thanks for the offer, but NO.
You don't seem to handle rejection well. Maybe you should listen to a few tapes :)
OK Chris, thought I would get a rise out of you on that. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.
I DO have a desire for serious and sober study into a few things, which you never did answer:
Why do diamonds need to motivate people to move products, are they not moving by their own volition?
How come I have NEVER met a non Amway guy who bought products from there? I've been on the planet 30 years, you'd think I'd know of at least 1 time in 10,950 days.
This post is about someone who was mad about the tools scam, and how the lifestyle displayed with the diamonds was not consistant with income based on product movement.
I think that's great you are able to retail. If that is the case, you'd likely make more money selling something else. If you can move as many products as you say you can, then you should be able to move mountains.
But I didn't mean to upset you. Hope you accept my apology.
Rocket wrote: "How come I have NEVER met a non Amway guy who bought products from there? I've been on the planet 30 years, you'd think I'd know of at least 1 time in 10,950 days."
I know of over a dozen. And when it comes to Quixtar I know dozens.
Do you know how many houses I have been too where I ended up finding out the family uses SA8 or LOC. My friends dad built an Amway business and had about 30 customers personally. Even though he doesn't actively build today, and is retired, he still gets checks every month from those continual orders.
Rocket, not everybody on the planet has bought products from an Amway distributor or from a Quixtar IBO. And have you really asked that many people? Or gone looking in their cupboards and shelves? Probably not.
There are plenty of critics on here who have known somebody who buys products that was not a distributor. Just because you haven't met a non-distributor purchaser is no evidence that they don't exist.
Rocket wrote: "Why do diamonds need to motivate people to move products, are they not moving by their own volition?"
People need to be motivated. There is no question about that. Especially sales people. Even when someone has their hands on a great product, if they don't tell anybody about it, they won't sell it. So consistent motivation is a big part of the biz.
But another very big part of the biz is community building. And when building community you work with people. And when working with people, there is a lot that needs to be learned. Diamonds are very experienced when building community, and so they have a lot to bring to the table in teaching/education/motivation/inspiration.
Bottom line is this. You don't understand the fundamentals of building a successful community and so this doesn't make sense to you. I have studied building communities from some of the best out their in different fields. The principles are much the same, and many Diamonds have mastered these principles.
I have been applying these community building principles that my Diamond teaches and they absolutely work and so I am very thankful for the continual effort from my Diamond to be the example and staying active in the business, when he doesn't have to financially.
Why do you think it is likely that I would make more money selling something else? I have plenty of friends who are salesman in other fields and I am doing better financially.
To me, this business is more than money and it has always been. Orrin Woodward says "have fun, make money and make a difference." I think that quote is great because it describes my view of what I do very well.
I am having a blast and doing very well and I enjoy what I do. The best part is all the people who are constantly thanking me for helping them, and as my business grows, I know I will be able to positively affect more people and help positively influence some lives.
Chris says:
Bottom line is this. You don't understand the fundamentals of building a successful community and so this doesn't make sense to you. I have studied building communities from some of the best out their in different fields. The principles are much the same, and many Diamonds have mastered these principles.
I too, have studied community building, and have been making money at it for 5 years - more money than I ever made in Amquix.
Let me be very clear for those of you who haven't been involved in "they system" and who might think Chris is sounding very sane and intelligent:
the groups built by system pins are NOT communities. they do not thrive on the free interchange of ideas. they do exist to support the individual - they exist to support the businesses of the higher pins. social interaction outside of approved business venues is discouraged, especially with "crossline". the tapes encourage you to let the big pins do the thinking for you. "You don't need to figure this out - just listen to us, we've been there arleady."
No chris, these groups are not communities in any sane sense of the word. And that was not what this post was about.
And you never answered my point about most IBO's who are plugged into a system not being profitable.
Your posts are nothing more than sponsored spam. I believe you don't post on the forum because you'd have to give your email address, and you don't want people to know that you are a paid plant working for Quixtar corporate.
You've been on here almost all day. Gee, you spend an awful lot of time NOT building your business for someone so successful!
Orrin Woodward says "have fun, make money and make a difference."
Porkchopjim says: be a firefighter.
Orrin also says "Paddle your canoe!"
Porkchopjim doesn't know what to say to that.
"People need to be motivated...Even when someone has their hands on a great product, if they don't tell anybody about it, they won't sell it."
EVERYONE has heard of AVON and Tupperware. Some have heard of Pampered Chef. ALMOST NO ONE knows of XS, SA8 or LOC. Nutrilite gets confused with Herbalife. Amway, they DO know - yet THAT great product can't be told out in the open until someone is 'hooked.'
If there are great products, and the business is selling products, than have a more effective advertising program than word of mouth. Otherwise, it appears that the business is signing up more people, with the products as a 'cover.'
With the amount of 'training' that goes on in Quixtar, I can't understand why houses (other than Quixtar houses) aren't stacked to the roof with these miracles of modern creation, and there should be at least 1 or 2 Quixtar PhDs out there.
But, if the 'business' just uses the cover of products to hide a pyramid, then the way Quixtar operates makes a lot more sense.
I call BS on the percentage of people on the system being only 10%. I don't believe that the stadium full of people on Dateline represented only those IBOs on the plan.
Chris, you're the expert. What percentage of your downline is 'on the system.' ONCE AGAIN, the claim that you can't speak for every LOS or even represent the majority of IBOs will not wash with me...you seem to have no trouble representing Quixtar in every other aspect.
Until then, it's 70%, which means the vast majority of IBOs are loosing money in this 'proven system.'
Chris said:
"Bottom line is this. You don't understand the fundamentals of building a successful community and so this doesn't make sense to you"
Chris you make me laugh. If you had any clue whatsoever as to what I do for a living, you would be embarrassed for saying that. I'm curious as to how you define building a community, as it relates to running a business. I'm not saying it doesn't apply, I'd just like to hear the Amway version.
BTW, before you ask, forget it. I'm going to share as much about me as you share of yourself.
You speak of diamonds with such reverance. Good job listening to all those tapes!!!
People are likely constantly thanking you because that is what the tapes teach them to do. Not saying its not deserved, but it is simply part of being in Amway. upline edification. If they didn't, they would not be following the system.
You say people need to be motivated. Why? Does a grocery store keeper lurk around a mall to get people to buy from him? No, people need the stuff they are buying anyway. That's what the plan is right? Buying from yourself and teaching others to do so? Why the need for motivation? It's their business, not yours, right?
A grocery store guy doesn't need to listen to motivational tapes to keep stuff on the shelves, nor attend 4 conventions a year, being kept up until the wee hours of the morning listening to Mr. SAFEWAY tell them how they can all be rich if they just believe.
Again, it's about moving products. Not building a community, not "counselling" people on non-product moving mattters.
It's about moving product. And the prices make this difficult.
QBlog ROCKS for having this site. I love this!
porkchop wrote: "EVERYONE has heard of AVON...ALMOST NO ONE knows of XS, SA8 or LOC...Amway, they DO know".
So what you are saying is that everyone has heard of Avon and Amway. But not everyone has heard of the exact product names for the products in those companies right?
Your point was confusing because Quixtar doesn't name their products Quixtar energy drinks and Quixtar laundry detergent. So of course they know the company name but not as many know the product name.
Did you really think that comparing other company names to the names of Quixtar products was a good comparison?
"and there should be at least 1 or 2 Quixtar PhDs out there."
What are you talking about? Please explain.
"...Until then, it's 70%, which means the vast majority of IBOs are loosing money in this 'proven system."
There is no way that the average could be 70%. You are just making up that figure and who knows where you came up with it. And what math did you do to figure that with 70% of active IBO's plugging into the system that the vast majority are losing money? Did you even do the math or just guess again?
OK, if you wanted a realistic estimate, then maybe I would consider 40% as reasonable. None of us have any way to prove this number so we would all just speculate. I think that would be overestimating, but would give the critics a better chance at making the big Q look bad.
Rocket wrote: "Why? Does a grocery store keeper lurk around a mall to get people to buy from him? No"
This is a pure example of not understanding the fundamentals. A grocery store clerk is the worse example because they run a traditional brick and mortar business where they have a storefront where people come and they do traditional advertising to get them there along with word of mouth.
IBO's do not have a store where people come, so they need to go out and solicit business. They are self-employed with no boss, so to get out there and make business happen requires motivation. This is a no brainer, and I thought you would understand this.
Then I made my clear points below about building community and the obvious need to be educated in that process. Plus, the better one develops themselves personally, the more successful they will become in their life and in business.
"Again, it's about moving products. Not building a community, not "counselling" people on non-product moving mattters."
WRONG. It's about moving products AND building a community. Why do you think there is a compensation plan for registering other IBO's? Why do you think the average incomes for those who build a community are much higher than those who just do sales. It is more than just moving products, it is about people.
Chris, my point about the grocery store guy was the fact that he doesn't have to solicit business, the products sell themselves. Not so with Amway. Why?
I'll tell you why. If the products were a tenth as good as proclaimed, and even close to price competitive, then the products would sell themselves. Obviously they don't. Jeez, if people were all that happy with the stuff you peddle, then people would be banging down your door trying to access your products. They're obviously not (although I tried ;0) so then you have a group of people that will sell you success so to speak.
I don't really understand why everyone has to be such close friends to move product, if that's what you mean by community. No other business does this.
It's very weird. My father has a successful "brick and mortar" business, and they all don't have to have night owls, or weekend seminars, or listen to tapes to be happy. The idea is to make money and move product, not spend every waking moment living the business. Yet they are all successful and make money for themselves. They don't force the sub-contractors to listen to tapes, or attend motivational rallies.
The products don't sell themselves. There's a reason for it. If it was like you dream it is, the products would sell themselves, without motivation.
They don't. Get it? If its to make money, you need to move product, unless the tools are the idea, in which case its illegal.. If it's to be a self help group, then market it as such.
That's why the guy this post is about is mad, don't you see?
It was interesting to read the case studies of the 12 individuals listed on the 'other IBOs' link on this post.
I would encourage all to not only read these case studies but also the book 'Merchants of Deception'. I just finished it and was truly edified by what I read (notice I used the word edified properly?).
I can really begin to see some striking similarities to those involved compared with Eric Scheibeler's story. The defense of the system and the complete loyalty to upline despite whatever is revealed is both disturbing and sad.
DeWalt Tools rule!!
I got my eye on the 18vt Finish Nailer. No gas cartridge. No air compressor hose.
Chris,
70% is made up. I admitted that before. I asked what % or your downline was 'plugged in.' You gave me a guess for everyone. 70% is as good as any at this point.
As the training is 'invaluable,' just how much does that cost per month? For your group, again. Or can't you be up front about that, and why not? Too personal again? I'm sure your up front about all that when STP happens.
Quixtar PhDs: after 2-5 years of training, someone should be a master electrician, doctor or a green beret.
Training principles: two methods, but both are progressive and build. First is straight beginning to end - start here, learn these things, end with a certain skill set, and begin learning a new set. This can even include reinforcing skills learned in the past. Second method is 'block' training. Doesn't matter where you begin, just as long as you complete all the blocks after a period of time to reach an end skill set. Start a new set of blocks for the next skill. This last method is good for several diverse groups - but you end up with the same product at the end.
Quixtar - whether you have been in the business for 1 week or 10 years, you both get the same tape/cd/program. Directs and beginners in the same class. No start, no end (until, of course, you reach financial freedom). No identifiable skill sets from training - no 'I am block one qualified so I am moving on to block two'...but 'I am direct qualified but still in the beginners class' etc. Now, is this a true training program, or just a sure method of selling BSMs? DaVinci always worked on his craft, but I don't think he took color-by-numbers class every four months or so.
Avon lady - I know what I'm getting. Tupperware, too. Quixtar? Sure you don't sell 'Quixtar Energy Drink' because you'd have to explain what 'Quixtar' was right off the bat - and that's not allowed, is it?
Bottom line - when you and your minions are out creeping around the malls, are you hustling XS (hey, kid, try this) or are you looking for people to 'build your business?' What is the focus? Don't say both, cause that's not the truth.
Chris, why exactly you are blowing trumpet of victory? If 340 K Figure is wrong, then provide the right figure? That amquix one is of 2001, where all the hype of Amway going online etc. all you did was say “This figure may not be correct” and that’s it? Ok here it comes, “You may be a monkey” so what did I proved here?
Provide the right figure, I’ll update my record, and will be grateful. Total number of Active IBOs, from some verifiable fact. That Press Release was wrong? or just not authentic enough according to you? All you did was make a lousy statement that "That figure may not be right as it's not from company" And you proved every body wrong? Including that press release? That’s HOW you make points? I'll bet 100 PV LawDawg is not even reading your posts.
You said Ken McDonald said 25K (or 35K) sign ups every month. Great! So you said 340K is a low number, and it should be:
340K + 25k(Number of month)
I think this equation is incomplete, here is complete equation:
340K + 25K(number of months) - Total Drop out per month * (number of months)
Quixtar grows every year: Ahem! If I change my name right now, declare today as my first day, and start yelling "Look at me, I beat Bill Gates as I make more money on my first day than he did in his first 20 years" would I be right?
Amway was, actually is much successful than Quixtar to date. Source, Alticor.com. Amway USA become Quixtar and it sales are STILL Less than what they used to be in nineties. Changing name and then claiming “mega success” is.....misrepresentation. Legally they might be fine, but ethically it's a lie.
That SBA figure, yap all you want, ppl are working on it to figure it out. And other pros that used them didn't do the right thing either. But go on their critic site, this is Quixtar Blog.
Ok here are few questions:
1) What is your diamond?
2) Do you give some startup kit if BSM literature and / or product kit to IBOs? Getting started right tapes etc.? Never?
3) When is Quixtar starting to sell Marijuana online? I mean they never enforced many rules, did nothing about complains and bribe GOP and have a senator Sue Mayrik to change laws in their favor, what are they afraid of? They are invincible of law so y not sell heroin or something? Majority of North America is not watching them so why hesitate?
Chris wrote:
"WRONG. It's about moving products AND building a community. Why do you think there is a compensation plan for registering other IBO's?"
Huh. I thought the FTC said that one of the indicators of an illegal pyramid is compensation for recruitment.
Chris> By the way Rocket, you sent me a link to amquix showing numbers greater than the 340k statistic that all the critics were using. Why did you wait til now to bring that up. Not like it mattered because these critics also likely read that stat and knew there were more than 340k distributors currently.
So why wouldn't the critics admit that? Just curious. It's because they are trying their best to make the statistics look worse than they are. If it is a positive growth stat for Quixtar, many critics won't use it or will just twist it to sound negative.
Imran>I have been ignoring this attempt to make citric look worthless for a while.....
So it's the critics who twist the facts? Or is it someone who is saying Quixtar is showing growth while they are just reaching to their previous level (Amway)? Who is twisting facts here?
Positive growth of Quixtar AND AmwayUS, show me. I'll accept. I'm not trying to make any thing look good or bad. All I want is Quixtar to operate legally so normal ppl don't end up losing time and money behind some false claims and illegal pyramids. And also masses become aware that mlm is stupid idea. Quixtar is a perfect example. (My opinion)
All you did was make a statement that 340 K number might not be correct. Just like Man did not landed on moon. Ok give me correct number. Not 2001 number, 2004 number.
Also, you said Ken McDonald said 25 K or 35 K sign up every month. Who disputed it? It's a positive number? It can be disputed MUCH easily like you did to that Press Release of 340 K. Ken McDonald said that, Ha! He also said Dateline only interview one side. (The other side refused! liar boffo)
And who heard it, IBOs on Kate, who also hear P & G worship Satan. Who told it, Chris, who spend much more time here than many critics, giving me doubts if he is what he claims.
There! that number 25 - 35 K is not authentic, show me the right number. Also, provide the drop out rate with that number as well to give the ACTUAL growth. Not just ‘positive’ spin. I'm just curious.
Also, you said Quixtar showed positive growth in War, bad economy and BAD MEDIA /dateline.
Hmm, well our office also worked in the same condition and managed to survive. many business did, some even flourished.
What do you mean by BAD MEDIA / dateline, would you like to explain?
Mo, regarding the 340k number, you must have missed the beginning of the conversation. Rocket has been asking me to prove that number wrong for a while, even though he already knew it was wrong. This bothered me, but Rocket considers it a joke.
So I emailed Quixtar PR and got a response that the number quoted in that article was a number that Ken McDonald gave the reporter. That number reflected just "active" IBO's at the time. Did not include non-active IBO's or member or clients.
So a logical estimate would be that there are over 500k registered IBO's and when you add members/clients the numbers are much much higher.
I was stating that Quixtar has grown every year since it's launch. Made no reference to before that period. There is nothing misleading about what I said.
Both statistics, the 25k/mo and the 340k in the article came from Ken McDonald. So if you don't believe him as a spokesman for Q, then why use the 340k number either?
I don't know if lawdawg reads these posts, but he has been responding to them as if he was reading them. I considered that a sign that he was reading them :)
--
Porkchop,
Why did you ask me a question about whether I use one or two prospecting techniques and then say that I can't say both because it's not true?
Of course I use both. Why would I not. I don't do the creeping around malls thing you suggest, but we do promote advertising products to people to move volume, and keeping our eyes open for potential business partners as well.
It's funny you should mention XS because that is the product I sample the most. I don't know about your "hey little kid" approach, but when I drink them in public usually people ask me about them, and I usually have samples in an XS cooler on me or in the car.
--
CK, you know I obviously was talking about getting paid bonuses on downline volume.
Well Y'all I am getting ready for my winter vacation so I likely won't be posting on here for a while. I might fiddle around with my laptop a few times but who knows. It's been fun and I hope that you have respected my pro-quixtar voice as a commenter on this blog.
Happy Thanksgiving, Merry Christmas, and a Happy New Year!
Chris,
I only read some of these posts. Your method of discussing things in the comments is just plain silly, so I probably won't be responding to you any more. However, as my last "clean up Chris's rumors" post I will state that the article doesn't specify those are "active" distributors. If Ken or Quixtar thinks that should be clarified they should do so. Until then, I don't care what a faceless rep. SUPPOSEDLY told Chris over the phone.
The number is 340,000 Distributors as per the Quixtar press release. Members/Clients aren't distributors so mentioning them to try to suggest the number of distributors is larger than 340,000 is an attempt to be misleading Chris. Nice try.
If there are 25,000 new distributors signing up on average per month and the growth rate for the distributor force remained constant over the last THIRTY YEARS OR MORE, then the rate at which IBOs quit is also likely to be around 25,000/month. Throughout the seventies, according to the FTC, the quit rate was 50% of the whole distributor force each year. There's no reason to believe that's changed since then, especially since a Quixtar press release shows that there are the same number of distributors today as there was in the early seventies. Despite what Margaret todl Buddy who told Chris over the phone about the "true" meaning of the press release. ;)
Lawdawg,
Let me get a couple of things straight really quick here.
It was not misleading for me to include members/clients because that was in response to a conversation with Rocket where I said I heard of a higher total of "registered" people with Quixtar, meaning IBO's, Members & Clients.
So the number that Rocket was asking me to verify was including members/clients. An archive search on this blog can easily prove that.
Secondly, it is not a "faceless" rep from Quixtar, it was the Manager of PR at Quixtar and I will forward QBlog a copy of the email correspondence. All you had to do was call to verify the statistic yourself and they would have answered you. That goes for every critic.
Thirdly, it should be very obvious to an intelligent person like yourself that the numbers are over 340k. I would still be excited if they were just at 340k, but to me it was obvious they were much higher. There were many signs leading towards that. How come I was the only one to question that statistic and then seek information to prove my hunch right? I would think this is the attitude the critics would share as well.
I don't care if you update your posts or not. I am going to be on vacation, which by the way, I will still be getting paid my entire time on vacation. So funny how that works. I am thankful to Quixtar and the IBO opportunity for being the foundation of a greater lifestyle that I am now able to enjoy.
Hum... I'm getting paid during my vacation, too, without Quixtar. I'll even be sleeping at night because I didn't get any of that pay by selling people I'm pretending to be friends with tapes and cds. Ain't it great?
Chris Implosion Update!!!
Chris has gone back for reprogramming. Apparently he strayed a bit far from his handlers, and won't be getting that XS-MAS bonus after all.
Here is the problem: he advocated two very illegal practices here.
1) "Btw, what is wrong with 'buy 100, eat 100, sell 100'? That sounds like good advice."
That's illegal.
2) "Why do you think there is a compensation plan for registering other IBO's?"
That's illegal.
Since Chris is on vacation, I'll stand in for him:
Chris on 1) "I don't see where that is illegal at all, perhaps you took it out of context...(skip 10 pages)...XS sure is GREAT!"
My response: I'm not going to explain it too you and allow you to waste time while you change the subject and hope this dies out. It's your business. It's illegal.
Chris on 2) "That was taken totally out of context. There is no direct compensation for registering new IBOs...(skip 12 pages)...I couldn't be this successful without tools!"
My response: You slipped. You didn't write it like you were supposed to - legally. You let slip what it actually is - which is illegal.
Chris will then change the subject.
Prayers to Chris as he looks for a new job after loosing this one as a shill for Quixtar.
Happy Thanksgiving Everyone Else!
Before taking off i decided to check in on my good buddy porkchop to see what he was up to... Oh my...
If I misspoke, i am sorry. Looks like I did. You know me well enough to know that I didn't mean it that way. So use it against me all you want if you feel the need. If you look below I corrected myself shortly after already.
buy,eat,sell concept is not illegal. You got that one wrong. Sorry. To suggest that as an IBO if I sold 100 points and then decided to shop myself for stuff I need that totalled 200 points, that you are saying that is illegal is ridiculous. Get your facts straight before making claims.
And when I say I'm getting paid for this vacation, I may decide to do some work but unlikely. Plus I won't be returning until the new year. Plus the month of December will be my highest paying month. Not trying to brag, but pointing out that since becoming an IBO I have learned principles in wealth creation and have applied them to generate significant residual income. Now I am going to enjoy it some. Fantastic!
Now, attack all you want. Too bad I won't be here to set you critics straight :)
1/3 outside sales vs. 2/3 sales to yourself: you are not primarily selling to someone outside the pyramid = product based pyramid scheme = illegal.
Facts straight enough for you?
Look out for any dudes soliciting donations around Christmas time. If it is an over-excited weasel in a Santa suit with a can of XS in his hand, chances are -- its Chris!
Dude has to make income somehow and stealing donations at Christmas time is 10x easier than selling soap and tapes to naive nitwits!
I think it's really funny that Chris makes a big deal about his holiday and how he still gets paid for it while he's away.
Anyone who has a steady job also gets this. It's called vacation time.
Have fun Chris. Don't be such a sourpuss that I held out on you. It only took you a month to find out. If you were half as smart as you think you are, you would've found it too. I'm not that bright and I found it.
Mind you, I'm not paying ridiculous prices for coffee either..........Never mind, HAVE A GREAT TRIP!!!!
Good thing the tool business is there! You'd be screwed if you depended on product sales.
Oh yeah, I LOVE YOU!!!!!!
Two things:
1: what is the definition of active again? not selling anything, not attending any meetings, and a bunch of other things??? Other than making sales, which Quixtar can tell if an IBO does or not...since sales go through them....but how does Quixtar know if an IBO is attending any meetings or other of the other conditions which entail dealing with the LOS?
Why is "active" even an consideration?
2: Please point out in the rules and regulations that says you can not give out your IBO # to anyone (online, email, reg mail, face-to-face, etc) requesting it and telling them "thanks, go to Quixtar.com and buy whatever you want using this number" and you get the PV/BV?
Thanks,
"Active" means whatever it needs to at the time it's being used by Quixtar promoters.
In their FTC compliance docs, they define it. Who knows what the guy on the phone meant by it whe HE used the term. They have a major PR problem because Ken McDonald was NOT supposed to reveal the number of distributors. They NEVER do that! Whoops!
Overheard at Quixtar PR office:
PR Guy #1: "He did it."
PR Guy #2: "Well, what's our explanation?"
PR1: "Just tell them that was 'active' distributors, whatever the hell that means."
PR Guy #2: "Yeah, the sheep will accept that. But what if they ask what the real number is?"
PR1: "Just tell them it's grown alot since 1999 when it was Zero - before we switched all the Amway distributors over."
PR Guy #2: "Won't it look suspicious if we say 340,000 distributors was just the 'active' distributors but neither indicate that number is wrong or state what the actual number is? In fact doesn't it sound stupid to say that our managing director doesn't know how many distributors we have?"
PR1: "Are you working for Bo Short?"
Chris,
What level are you? did you spike that?
How long have you been in?
What is your constant PV level?
How many Standing orders?
How many legs to a function?
Did you know Rich and Jay built the system without Tools?
Dont you find it absurd that the big pins go against what Rich and Jay wanted the Amway business to be?
A question of loyality..are you more loyal to Quixtar? or your upline big pin?
It should be Quixtar, but I know it is not..
ex-dd, Chris is pretty cloak and dagger about his business. Apparantly, if you know too much about his business, you'll use it against him. He must either have a lucrative business, and is trying to do damage control on this site, or is a pathetic little monkey hoping against hope that it ain't so.
I am curious as to what exactly we could use against him if everything is as he says it is. Or is it?................
Anyways, good luck getting a straight answer out of him, firstly, he deflects questions by answering a question nobody asked, and will not make a stand on anything obviously negative about Amway, other than saying that he's always open to change.
Secondly, he's out living the dream on vacation (so he says) Not that I don't believe him, But I don't
(Preview to next Chris response, "Rocket, I don't care if you believe me or not blah....excellent......product pricing IS competitive....blah....bottom line....freedom......ad nauseum)
Quixtar is a rip, I bought somethings to sell in my store and they wouldn't let me. That's nuts. I was only asking retail price but they said that was not fair to everyone else who is trying to sell it out of the catalogue. Control, that's what they want. I should sue them. They want me to consume what I buy not sell it, how insane.
Do you know if I can legally get my money back because they won't let me sell the stuff that I bought to specifically retail? I want to get out of this crappy mind control brain washing business. I am already successful, just some little wanna be conned me into this said I could save some money on some product for my store and sell it. I can't, can you believe that?
XS is almost considered a presciption drug good thing they didnt put 5000% of ur daily vitamin b12. Also the people who run quixstar have been aware day one that what they created was illegal but they learned from former companies and have used the internet effectivly notice there isnt a single paper trail anywhere which is why the FBI IRS and the trade commison are having a tough time collecting evidence. I know alot of people who have lost and some who have gained using this company and if you take the time to actualy look at the books you would see a huge loss out of most "trained" distributers. Quixstar is a newly evolved pyramid scheme that uses not only manipulation but fraud. Its also funny how their annual report does not match their website information and is greatly exagerated on their website. Also they dont mention the number of IBO's in accuray and infact as the company is continously being invetigated even investigators cannot get accurate information from the company on the number of IBO's their losses and how much of percentage of profit came from IBo's or these "training" sessions. Its amazing how much data goes missing in such a profitable company. Goodluck if you involved with this company and dont be suprised if one day your checks stop coming in and this huge seller of such wonderful and sketchie products disappears......
Nope, not one of them. I like Fred Harteis. His teaching style has been very effective from stage/tapes to me and my organization. He has helped us out greatly. Thanks Fred.
According to Shawn, Fred Harteis said: "We don't hold these events (functions) for us. We could be anywhere in the world tonight. We put these functions on for you (attending IBOs), so that you can see what you have in your hands (the potential of the business)..."
I believe this is true. He doesn't need to be out speaking. He could be anywhere in the world. I already feel the same way Fred does but on a much smaller scale. Most of the time I would rather be at an event to help my team, than to not be there and be somewhere else. I love helping people and Fred has been a tremendous help to our organization.
The events are completely tailored to the newest IBO. They are for the team! I love the fact that Fred can profit share in the success of the events because that gives him(and other diamonds) the extra incentive to continue to teach rather than be out traveling the beaches. It all works out in a great way, but the newest IBO doesn't understand it.
Here is a solution for IBO's like Shawn. I think that LOS's could be more upfront about the system profits and what they are and why they are and how they are effective in everything coming together. Right now it's more on an ask and tell basis, but it could become part of the general training. This could help solve these issues. Just a thought.
Posted by: Chris | November 23, 2004 7:49 AM