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October 28, 2004
Show Me The Money
By QBlog in
"Hi, I'm Gung-Ho IBO and you're crazy if you think this business isn't the best opportunity in the world."
"I'm sure it is a great opportunity. How's it working out for you?"
"You wouldn't believe it if I told you."
"Try me."
"Well, I'm a Double Direct Amethyst and I'm making an annual five-figure residual income."
"Really, you know $10,000 is five figures. And after taxes, that's how much exactly?"
"It's way more than that, believe me."
"Sure, I believe you but could you provide just a little proof to back up your income claims?"
"Well I'd love to but I'm not going to give my personal information to someone like you."
"I see. So black out your personal information then."
"Uh... now you're just being negative."
"Come again? Asking you to prove your income claims is negative?"
"I could just make it up anyway."
"So, don't make it up. Just take your real numbers and black out your personal info."
"Now you're trying to steal my dreams. Well I won't let you steal my dreams. Good-bye! "
"Huh?"
The above conversation is a fictionalized account of many conversations I've had with IBOs over the past two years. The issue of proving income claims seems to be especially troubling to Quixtar IBOs. Why? I have no idea. Well, actually I have a few ideas but nothing I can prove. I've never quite understood why IBOs are so reluctant to back up their income claims with documentation. The most frequent excuse I've heard is a fear of releasing personal information.
Below you'll notice a graphic (which links to a larger version) revealing PV/BV, bonus percentages and qualifying legs. Notice that the name and IBO# is blacked out so the fear of distributing personal info (address, phone number, whatever) is largely unfounded.
The Quixtar screenshot is from the "Managing Your Business" area of Quixtar.com and from what I can tell, it's a pretty good indication of how well an IBO is doing in the business. Previously, the only IBO who sent me any sort of income data was a Team Of Destiny guy calling himself "Bankin' It." He was brand new to the business and so his Quixtar check was understandably "small" ($21.58) but he promised to send along a copy of larger checks as they arrived. I'm still waiting for those check scans.
Asking Too Much?
Is asking for proof of income claims asking too much? Perhaps. Is asking a doctor
to prove the effectiveness of the miracle cure he is hawking asking too much?
Maybe so. Is asking a lawyer how many cases he's won and lost before you hire
him for representation an inappropriate question? Could be. I wonder how many
native Missourians
are Quixtar IBOs.
Comments
What do you think about the statement that Quixtar has in the virtual office section of the site that says the following:
"The information contained within this section constitutes trade secret, confidential and proprietary business information, which has been developed and is owned exclusively by Quixtar.
By viewing these pages, you agree to maintain the information in strictest confidence, and to take all reasonable steps and appropriate measures to safeguard the information and maintain the confidentiality thereof.
You agree not to compile, organize, access, create lists of, or otherwise use or disclose the information contained within this section except as authorized by Quixtar."
After looking at the example shown it's about were I was before I quit after 16 years .You can tell the Ibo personally did over 500.00 pv by his self.No client or member volume.Maybe he ordered it and delivered door to door.That was about $1400.00 or $1500.00 in real dollars.They were probably wanting to make sure they hit their pv goal.That right there is were the majority of people are though and I know it from experience.There are times when you will be at 2500 pv to 3500 pv but the odds are you will be back at this picture above because of the failure rate and you will keep trying because your so brainwashed you can't quit.
I thought you were a independant business owner,Chris.You can tell what your expenses are compared to profits.Nobody knows who you really are.Personally I could care less but people get tried of all the hype Ibos blow up.You are not fooling me though about all this crap.I know all about it.I also am not stupid because I run departments in stores that do more than 4 or 5 million in a year and am held accountable for profits and expenses.
Ray,
Nobody is claiming that you are stupid. In fact you sound pretty experienced with Quixtar. I don't like the attitude you have towards me, but maybe I am just reading your comments wrong. I don't even know what point you are trying to make in that last one.
I do hold myself accountable with profits and expenses. I keep good detailed records and it helps me tremendously when it comes to taxes. I don't know how you think I am fooling you.
With 16 years experience, you must have seen people register and then make it to the platinum and emerald levels. What do you think it was that they did, that you didn't do to achieve that level?
I may be wrong in my assumption that you didn't achieve those levels based on your response, but I would guess that for a good majority of that time, that you desired to reach those levels.
What do you think the difference was?
Interesting, And true.
If an IBO is telling me he is profitable, and I ask proof, its only fair. Given that so many IBO exaggerate. Don't they?
Chris, I told you how much I made in my business right? I can give u prrof if you want. I'll black out client's name, my phone number and can share the amount. Of course I don't have to impress / sponsor any one.
Here's the deal. Quixtar publishes the average income numbers and they're horrible ($1,400 per year). Fine. That number is audited (or can be) and if it's false or exaggerated (which I doubt) then the FTC can bust Quixtar in a jiffy. So Quixtar won't fudge their numbers which is maybe why they are so tiny. But, virtually every single IBO I've ever encountered says the Quixtar numbers aren't typical and rattles off a list of reasons why their own numbers should be ignored. That's fine too. However, the IBO isn't backing his "improved" numbers up with anything. No proof. No income statements. No screen shots. No Schedules C's. Nothing. Just his smile and nicely pressed suit. So now who do we believe? Quixtar's numbers which are true according to the law or some IBO who says it is but won't back it up?
Oh, and toss in the fact that the IBO has everything to gain by impressing people with inflated income claims and nothing to lose (except a recruit but certainly no fraud charges from the FTC) if the numbers turn out to be total fabrications (or at least fudged a bit).
QBlog,
How would looking at an IBO's personal and group volume in that screenshot give you an accurate figure of his income to back up his claim?
What do you mean by improved numbers? I have used nothing but Quixtar-approved average incomes, and then low-ball estimates of BSM income because critics claim that Platinums and up make more money through that business than the Q business.
I have been very fair in my discussions of income with everyone on here. I am not trying to recruit anyone into my business, so I have no need to prove anything. But I would hope that my knowledge of the business would be enough proof that I at least know enough about Q to debate and offer some insight.
I have looked at the conversations the critics have had with other IBO's on this blog in the past, and it doesn't look like many IBO's did too well in their debates against you guys.
Part of the reason is because it is usually like 8 against 2 or something like that. So more positive comments on this blog would help even out the debates. So why don't they like the fact that I am on here allowing for decent conversation of these posts.
But as far as this post about Q incomes, I still don't understand how it benefits this debate for an IBO like myself to share my personal and group volume so that the critics can tear me apart some more.
If you read my comments below I have asked some questions for you QBlog. I would love some insight if you get the chance.
It would give me more accurate info than some anonymous guy blabbing about "the dream," that's for sure.
What is every IBO so freaking afraid of? The "critics will tear me apart" line is so tired and should be retired.
QBlog wrote: "The "critics will tear me apart" line is so tired and should be retired."
Why? I have been attacked for every piece of information released so far. The critics should retire from pushing IBO's to release this information.
It's not that I am "afraid" of being "torn apart", it's just that I don't see the benefit.
I like the anonymous relationship between IBO and critic in these debates, and yet the critics will never leave this situation alone.
It is good that they are not IBO's because they are very pushy about topics like this, and that something you want to avoid as an IBO.
Staying anonomyous helps us all out because this way we don't judge eachother on all the insignificant things, like age for instance.
I just saw a 19 year old kid get ripped on because of his age by some adults on a forum. They were saying that because of his age, that he couldn't possibly know enough about subject X to have credibility. But the kid was written up in Business 2.0. recently and had more credibility than the rest of the forum. Case in point.
So without you critics judging me on my age, race, background, pin level, income, etc, then we have an equal debate in a safe setting. If you disagree then you disagree, but I see this as a valid point.
So what figure on that screenshot would be helpful to you? How many legs I have? What my personal volume is? What my group volume is?
And you did not address the fact that Quixtar does not want us sharing this information and has a statement in the virtual office for all IBO's to read. I posted the statement below.
What are your thoughts on it?
Chris,
you previously stated in http://tinyurl.com/6gzcm
--- begin quote
>On top of that, my business grows every month without needing me, and there is one very large leg of mine where I have developed many leaders that are able to completely run that business without the need for me to be active in it.
I will admit that in my other legs, I wouldn't feel secure walking away from them at this point even though they are growing, but this time next year should be a different story. They just need more depth and more leadership developed and they should be fine.
---end quote
So there is NOTHING in your page like the one shown that will give away any private information...but would lend immense credibility to your claims of "legs" and monthly volume. Black out the IBO# and last name, give us reasonalbe assurance that it is you. You are the one saying it works and "selling" the opportunity.
I was in and didn't see it. Hell, I can't even find any record of my former Diamond Jim & Patti Guldberg. They supposedly broke 5 legs, had a "personal tragedy" with one of their kids, lost all the legs and had to rebuild 6 new ones to go Diamond. Guess their business was real stablew without them out there keeping it up. And they were "stars" under the Michaals (Scott & MJ I believe) in the yager Organization. I'm not selling anything better, I'm just using the information and experiences I have to say it "ain't all that". Like the Quixtar releases taht say the avg Diamond makes $149K....great....how many do that without the $800K from tools? Diamonds were ALWAYS called "Millionaires" from "this business" when I was in...but nothing from Quixtar (then Amway) said they were.
I can't believe you said this:
"It is good that they are not IBO's because they are very pushy about topics like this, and that something you want to avoid as an IBO."
That sentence right there is why this blog exists, or at least a large part of why it exists. They are PUSHY? Excuse me? Asking someone to back up their claims is PUSHY? Pushy? It's that question avoidance that is so typical of IBOs (and I'm not singling you out or even thinking of anyone in specific) and it's why I'm so attracted to IBOs who drop the excuses and deliver.
So we're back to being pushy huh? Trying to ascertain the truth is being pushy? I guess the IRS is being pushy when they want IBOs to prove they are trying to build a business? I guess the FTC was being pushy when it forced Amway to restructure how they present the "opportunity?"
How in the name of God is asking for proof of income pushy when one of the major components of the business is showcasing the incomes of those in the business? You're showing your true colors here Chris and frankly, I'm disappointed.
Chris said:
And you did not address the fact that Quixtar does not want us sharing this information and has a statement in the virtual office for all IBO's to read. I posted the statement below.
What are your thoughts on it?
Hey man, it's your "Independent Business". There is a link that it looks like to "share PV/BV information" on the page. Sharing info with whom? Upline? Downline?
If the only reason you are not willing to share the proof that can do you no harm in information release is that Quixtar doesn't want that info out... okay. Then I'll assume until your name is listed by Quixtar as a Diamond, or recognized in the monthly magazine as a gem of soime kind, that you are $1400 a year and building...cause that's the information Quixtar puts out.
And that's cool. best regards and respect to you. Give Orrin my best, he never answered my email either.
QBlog, you are the one that is dissapointing. I struck you as a logical educated person, and yet you avoid the actual questions answered and give me this response instead!
I OBVIOUSLY was not saying that asking for proof of income was "pushy". It is the persistence of critics continually asking over and over and over again when I have already stated why I won't and then they just keep asking. I call that pushy AND annoying.
I even offered very detailed analysis as how I didn't feel it was beneficial to try to help the critics see why I wouldn't release that information.
I even provided information from Quixtar that says that IBO's cannot release that information.
What if I asked you every single day over and over to release your earnings from the Google Adsense ads that you have on the side of your page? You would be flirting very closely with the TOS if you released that info, and they could easily kick you off the program.
On top of all of this, I even offered insight as to where I was in the business, gave you an idea of what my groups were like, and how much money I was earning. Nothing is ever enough.
I don't care if you don't believe me. I even said that when I start up my own blog, that I feel it is right to release more information to give me more credibility, but on here I am just a visitor to your blog responding to persistent pushy comments from critics that continue to ask to see my income statements and group volume.
This is getting old. Have some decency and respect. I think that I have shown nothing but respect in my comments, and I can't say that I have received the same.
Are you feeling me? Or are you just going to pick something out of this post and spin it some more?
QBlog, in the comment below yours, Roger claims that a $149k Diamond makes another $800k in tool income. I don't see you asking him to back that up. Or to name "just one" that is making that much. "Just a name, that's all".
So you don't hold any other critics on this blog to any level of credibility, but only question the pro-quixtar IBO's. This blog is beginning to seem more biased and slanted than ever before, and to think I had you figured for a neutral "watch dog" of Quixtar.
Roger wrote: "If the only reason you are not willing to share the proof that can do you no harm in information release is that Quixtar doesn't want that info out... okay."
Hey man, assume what you want about my income, I don't really care. Unlike you, I give you guys the benefit of the doubt when you say something and assume you wouldn't be lying, but you don't pay me the same respect.
Here is an idea: If you really are going to ask IBO's to release this information, why don't you provide proof from Quixtar saying this is allright. That would at least be a starting point to work from.
Google will not let QBlog talk about his income he earns from Adsense, but they do approve people from time to time to release the information. So if I really wanted to know that information from QBlog, then I should contact Google and get some sort of proof that he wouldn't be in violation, then he might release. Or he might not and that would be his choice.
By the way, you are assuming my income is that of the average IBO, but I think that through my comments on this blog, an intelligent person could obviously see that I am above average. Not that I really care, but if anything, showing you my statements would definitely give me more credibility. I know this.
It would make more sense though, to see a copy of my P&L because honestly my screenshot wouldn't give you anything valuable about my business. But too bad I'm not going to show you either.
Chris,
Blogspot is cool, you obviously have more than enough time and words to fill a blog..c'mon give it a shot!
Heck you have posted at least 5 good days worth of Blogging in the last 24 hours here.
The templates are easy, even though my latest entry is screwed up because of my side bar, and even the critics will help you when you have a problem..even Dave Stone at MLM Today spent several days working on some code for me to use.
Thanks again Dave!!! :)
How about it? It takes about 5 minutes to post your first entry.
Waiting with Baited Breath( eyes? monitor? whatever)
David Robison
http://daveontheroad.blogspot.com/
Chris,
I have nothing personal against you or anyone in Quixtar.Most are good people.With all this high tech stuff available why do the kingpins(dinosaurs) keep pushing their proven failure system of books,tapes and functions?Why do they not look at other ways of doing things to keep cost down.What's good for the group is always good for the Upline!I can name a few things that don't make no sense.
1.Getting in your car and burning your gas up to hear the same plan over and over when you could have done it from your home instead of some hotel your financing for your upline.
2.Buying tapes or cd's when you could download them yourself to help your group or have a site were your group could get the information free.They really do want the group to make it don't they?
3.Q could be more competitive in pricing.They have no stores,you are the middle man.Doing 1.1 billion with no stores.Amway used to grow 30% every year back in late 80's and early 90's.With the Internet and all the people that were in Amway (USA ) it should be doing a lot more.
4.Why not have chat room functions to help your group?You could cover the whole nation and people could use that saved money for products and the uplines pv would sky rocket and they would not make much.They need the functions to maintain their lifestyle I guess or they would make changes to move more products than tools.Remember "Team" Together Everyone Achieves More.There is no i in "Team" but there is a me.
Dave,
Thanks for the tip. I do plan on blogging when I get back from an extended holiday vacation. So maybe at the beginning of next year.
I just don't want to start up a blog and then leave it sitting there right off the bat.
That is why I am spending some time getting in some comments here. Because I can walk away from this blog, but it's harder for QBlog, the site author to do that.
I hope you understand.
Plus there is the approval from Quixtar that is pretty tough as well.
There are pretty strict guidelines when it comes to having a blog for IBO's, so I am not totally sure what direction I am going to take with it. I am looking into my options at this point.
Ray, good ideas. Here are my thoughts on them.
1.Getting in your car and burning your gas up to hear the same plan over and over when you could have done it from your home instead of some hotel your financing for your upline.
> You are missing the point of hotel meetings. They are a place to bring your prospect so that they can see the business plan from a professional, see other people in the community are excited about the opportunity, and meet the rest of the team and upline.
When you bring a prospect, you are really excited and you are hoping it is the best speaker, and that it is the biggest turnout ever.
That is why it is important that the team show up even when they don't have a prospect. So that they can support that fact that there are local hotel meetings available, and to contribute to the team.
Getting out of the house and around positive people for a night can also help you to not focus on the daily drama that most people go through. It can help you get more motivated to build your business.
If you are showing up to hotel meetings week after week without a prospect, I would hope that you get with your mentor and figure out why your plan presentation is not effective.
Either that or you are not building the business, and if the latter is true, then it wouldn't matter if you stayed home and watched a video or went to the meeting.
2.Buying tapes or cd's when you could download them yourself to help your group or have a site were your group could get the information free.They really do want the group to make it don't they?
> You must be referring to groups that don't do this. My organization offers a dynamic web site with plenty of content, and it is expected to have a complete makeover in January and will turn into a massive educational resource.
The annual fee can be very minimal and can be used to just cover all web costs and equipment costs involved. No one needs to profit besides the webmaster and the people work is outsourced to.
Tapes/CD's should still be available, but we are seeing a transition from tapes to CD's, Videos to DVD's and I am sure we will see many more MP3 type options in the future.
3.Q could be more competitive in pricing.They have no stores,you are the middle man.Doing 1.1 billion with no stores.Amway used to grow 30% every year back in late 80's and early 90's.With the Internet and all the people that were in Amway (USA ) it should be doing a lot more.
> Amway also had its fair share of dips as well. I don't think the Amway comparison is that good though, because most critics thought those products were too high as well.
Quixtar is growing, and profitable. I don't see that problems are that big of a deal. I guess if more prospects and new IBO's had a problem with prices, then I would make a bigger deal of it, but I have shown well over a hundred plans and that is not an objection I get.
If Quixtar had a problem with prices, they wouldn't be growing in annual revenues. IBO's are willing to pay the prices which fits the economic principle of price signals, and I have had no problems in registering members so until this happens, pricing is just fine for me.
4.Why not have chat room functions to help your group?You could cover the whole nation and people could use that saved money for products and the uplines pv would sky rocket and they would not make much.They need the functions to maintain their lifestyle I guess or they would make changes to move more products than tools.Remember "Team" Together Everyone Achieves More.There is no i in "Team" but there is a me.
> Chat rooms is a decent idea. I do not think it would be the best way to train people, but I like the idea of more interactivity from the team, and I think that chat rooms or message boards is one way this can happen.
There is a very good chance that our site redesign will have an option like this.
Currently, the Quixtar opportunity attracts web savvy people as well as web illiterate people. So the average joe is not ready for that yet, but in the future I am sure we will see these things being implemented.
I am very web savvy, but I still listen to CD's everyday, and I don't buy everything online yet. I think that a good balance of CD's/MP3's/Books/E-Books/Blogs/Forums/Hotel Meetings/House Meetings all make for a good community based business.
I think your ideas are good, but we definitely shouldn't drop the existing system that is working so well for our organization. If something is working, why fix it? We will implement changes as they become reasonable and supported by the majority.
I remember we took a poll on the team to see what percentage wanted CD's instead of tapes, and the majority wanted tapes. This was like 2 years ago. We recently took a poll about DVD's vs. Videos, and people chose videos.
So we why should a tool be created when the purchases won't be supported? It is much better to go with what the team supports at the moment.
Plus, this is a people business, and the most important thing is being around people, so we don't want to get too distracted from the main purpose. We don't want a bunch of people building their business from computers all day. This is not the direction we believe in going.
I hope that helped add some perspective to your thoughts.
I think we're all paying way too much attention to Chris. Way more than he deserves.
Thanks for caring Quixmire :)
I'm still trying to figure out why posting your PV/BV is giving away trade secrets. Maybe they should take out "Independent" and "Owner" from the term IBO.
Also, If you were simply selling a product or groups of products, I would care less how much you make. It is much more important to me if you are selling a business. The proof should be in the numbers, not in the hype.
Chris, while I enjoy your posts, you tend to say things that reflect more of what Quixtar Corporate would want you to say and not what an IBO on the front lines would say. I can't say I knew an IBO in my three years that ever would have cared about divulging trade secret information. The average IBO isn't worried about competion because they have "best business out there, period, Period, PERIOD." So while I appreciate your input greatly, I'm starting to see you as representing a fictional IBO the could hypothetically be out there. That being said, please keep up the posts so I can read your side of the story.
Kendall,
You said: "I can't say I knew an IBO in my three years that ever would have cared about divulging trade secret information."
I would bet that most of the IBO's that you knew who were actually building their business would take the same stance as me.
IBO's are taught not to crossline. Correct? So you wouldn't catch them sharing information about their business with IBO's in other groups. Some take this more seriously than others.
"It is much more important to me if you are selling a business. The proof should be in the numbers, not in the hype."
I am not selling a business to anyone here. If I was trying to sell my business idea to people on here, then things would be different.
I have no problem sharing my information with my prospect or downline if they request it. In fact, in several situations I have shown my downline my books to help them in setting up good financial statements. Most of those times occured after reading about this topic on here.
I never really saw it as an issue until I heard you critics talking about it.
Kendall, why do you think opportunities like Google Adsense don't let you share earnings with people? Is it wrong for them to require that of their affiliates? Is it wrong of Quixtar to require it for the IBO's?
I would like to thank you here for the compliments. I like the fact that I come off professionally enough that you would think of me as part of Quixtar Corporate. I have always been this way since day one with my business. My friends think it is funny, but they respect the effort I put in to my business education.
Before I was willing to register, I read the business compendium, studied the rules of conduct, and as much about the bonus schedule as possible.
I think it was a waste of time in hindsight, because that information didn't turn out valuable until I had built my business to a significant level, and then I reread everything anyways. But I just needed to feel solid about my decision.
Plus, I always wanted to try to make accurate statements and claims, like I would hear IBO's say that the business is willable for 3 generations, and I would think, why only 3?
So I would look into it and find that it was willable more than 3, and that IBO's started that rumor because there had successfully been an IBO that had willed their business 3 generations so far. Things like this, you know, little details and stuff.
Independent Business Owner - I feel that this title accurately describes me. Today the business that I own made money and I didn't do one bit of work. I worked on hobbies today instead. I was pretty independent.
If you start up a business where you run a website that is an affiliate program site, are you an independent business owner? Even though your affiliates have control over how you present their links and how you get paid. And they can drop you at any time and they reserve many rights and control.
What about the term independent contractor. Isn't that the same thing, only I actually started up my own business, so I took it one step further.
Yet there are thousands of people out their who run their own independent businesses. Some businesses allow you more control than others, and I would say that Quixtar is one of the ones that offers more control, not less control.
Here's your name: Bo Short.
"That is why I am spending some time getting in some comments here. Because I can walk away from this blog, but it's harder for QBlog, the site author to do that."
No, the reason you're here is because this blog gets traffic and you believe that you're influencing (at least in some small part) the opinions of that traffic. If you started a blog it may be a year before you got as much traffic as this blog and that's just a lot of hard work isn't it?
David Robison is an IBO with a blog. He's not had any Quixtar problems. Approval is easy from what I see. Don't try to sell stuff. Don't try to recruit. Don't misrepresent the opportunity. Have fun. Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, Billy Florence, Jody Victor, etc. all have blogs so why can't you? Why are they special? And NONE of those blogs say "content reviewed" so that excuse is just a smokescreen.
If posting your qualified legs, percentage bonus and pv/bv are trade secrets, then I'm a monkey's uncle.
I agree with you Qblog. Note that each time his name is here, it is a link to... www.quixtar.com !
And what "very successful" IBO knows so much about Google Adsense??? I personally don't believe Chris is who he says he is. His agenda is not to "refute the critics" but to vomit all over the blog to get himself noticed and get his links on here.
>Plus there is the approval from Quixtar that is pretty tough as well.
There are pretty strict guidelines when it comes to having a blog for IBO's, so I am not totally sure what direction I am going to take with it. I am looking into my options at this point.
Posted by: Chris at October 29, 2004 01:31 AM
Chris,
There are no guidelines for blogging..it's not a personal home page or recruiting site...my blog is linked by two Quixtar employees.
The end result of any call for verification is always the same, no matter who is asked or how they are asked to present the data.
Based on AmQuix's own numbers, someone that concentrated on 'core' products could, in an all-retail, no downline Platinum distributorship, generate a gross revenue of $12,784 (without even factoring in end-of-year bonuses). That isn't chump-change; with normal expenses (not 'system' expenses) someone could clear $100K on that particular model.
But no-one seems to be doing that. Literally hundreds of thousands are treading water at $1400 gross a year. This is the truth of 'the business' - that only a handful make any money, most of that money wasn't from the same source you were told when you were shown 'the plan', and that the business model for a sponsoring-based business ensures that the majority of those involved will suffer net losses.
And that is why almost no-one ever accepts a profitability challenge - because they are embarrassed to show others the real numbers. It's that simple.
Chris, provide a link to the Quixtar page that says:
""The information contained within this section constitutes trade secret,"
use tinyurl please.
Thanks.
QBlog wrote: "No, the reason you're here is because this blog gets traffic and you believe that you're influencing (at least in some small part) the opinions of that traffic."
> This is true, and so was my answer. I am also commenting because it makes me a more educated IBO, and allows me to practice with those that disagree with the business. This strengthens my rebuttal skills and helps me when I show the plan and lead my team.
"If you started a blog it may be a year before you got as much traffic as this blog and that's just a lot of hard work isn't it?"
> Yes I think running a good blog is hard work. I have a lot of respect for you for that reason. I think that I would do just fine with traffic. I have had many critics say that they would be part of my discussions when I launch my blog, and so in a way that is a built in audience.
I have also spent a great deal of time studying search engine optimization, and so alot of it comes down to how you launch your blog. When my blog launches I will have a traffic analyzer available to the public, so you can see how well I do.
I think I will do fine with traffic, but I will agree that the Quixtar-related terms are currently a little more limited, which is why I have been studying blogging for a few weeks here to really learn it.
"Approval is easy from what I see. Don't try to sell stuff. Don't try to recruit. Don't misrepresent the opportunity. Have fun. Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, Billy Florence, Jody Victor, etc. all have blogs so why can't you? Why are they special? And NONE of those blogs say "content reviewed" so that excuse is just a smokescreen."
NO, QBlog, this is not as easy as you think. I already built a sample blog to see how easy it was to get approved, and it didn't get approved.
I am being serious here. It is a situation where I would have to have no way for visitors of my blog to contact me and have no personal info at all, and at the same time not promote the business in a way that my blog would seem like a prospecting blog.
So I am figuring out how to redesign my blog so that it has a chance to do well with marketing, talk about the issues related to Quixtar, and at the same time allow me to have my personal info there for credibility.
I will not put my blog out there unless I can get it content reviewed. You mention all these diamonds that have done it, but at the same time you know they are just part of some web initiative. And honestly their blogs suck.
Dave on the Road has a good blog, but did he even follow the rules and submit his to Quixtar for approval? If he didn't submit it then he is in violation.
"Chris, provide a link to the Quixtar page that says: The information contained within this section constitutes trade secret,"
> A direct link doesn't work because it is in the virtual office. You need to be an IBO to view this. When you log in, click to view your group, that statement comes up at the top of the page. I posted it word for word for you.
Mike wrote: "...someone could clear $100K on that particular model. But no-one seems to be doing that."
> So what are you making this assumption on? What makes you think there aren't alot of IBO's that focus on sales and make decent income?
I have heard plenty of message passed down on voicemail of IBO's who had landed successful sales deals for thousands of dollars per month.
"...most of that money wasn't from the same source you were told when you were shown 'the plan'"
> It sounds like these other organizations out there misrepresent the plan when they show it. When we show the plan, we always use corporate approved Quixtar numbers. So the IBO is not deceived at all.
Quixmire wrote: "I personally don't believe Chris is who he says he is..."
Nice, good for you. Your conspiracy theories about me are just great. Where would you like the link on my name to go? Other critics have it link to their sites, and so until I get my own, I was linking it to the company I am on the pro side of the debate for. If you look now I have changed it so conspiracy theorists like yourself are happy.
And about Google Adsense, it is quickly becoming one of the biggest trends of making money. I would suggest that you learn about it as well. If you have a website then you can add the banners and generate a decent income.
David wrote: "There are no guidelines for blogging".
Yes there are David. If I am an active IBO, and I had a blog like this one, I would be asked to take it down while it goes through an approval process, and this blog wouldn't be able to get approved without changing almost the entire thing.
You are an IBO, so ask Quixtar yourself that if this was your blog, would they approve it. There answer will be what I said above.
One more thing about On the Road with Dave. That blog doesn't have a discussion about the Quixtar business the way that mine would. So I do think he might be able to get it approved, but I have read through there and it's more like just a personal journal for Dave. This is not what I would want, although I think it is great for him.
I would want to blog like this that discusses issues, but allows a pro-quixtar IBO to choose topics and be in control of the posts.
All the other blogs that you are talking about all have comments disabled. So there is no opportunity for dialogue with critics there either.
I am not sure about the employee blogs. Maybe their rules are different, or maybe they are part of the web initiative. I am not sure, but still not what I am trying to do.
Chris,
I have IBO friends. Please provide a direct link or detailed instructions on how to get this information.
Thanks. And I believe you about the wording, I just want to better understand the context in which it's presented.
Why would any IBO have to or want to provide personal information to a groups of skeptics/critics? Can I see everyone's pay stubs, etc? Gimme a break.
Chris has nothing to prove to you. He has a voice, just as everyone else does.
I laugh when I see the people who couldn't cut it with an easy business trash it because "someone" ripped them off of 1000's of dollars. You chose to purchase tools and do nothing with the business. You cut the checks and forked out the cash for conventions. You signed an application to get involved. Accept it and move on. It's nobodies fault but your own.
Exec -
There is world of difference between "showing everyone a pay-stub", and providing proof of the viability of a business. AmQuix 'network marketers' ask prospects to enter into a business relationship, and are not offering them a job or financing a boat.
If people performed the same due diligence when evaluating this as they do the typical appliance purchase this business would dry-up overnight.
Chris,
I was being sensitive to the "personal information" aspect. I'm not asking you to pull a Dexter yager and photocopy your checks from Quixtar. I'm not asking you to show your tax forms. I just htought QBlog was giving you a Golden ticket to credibiltiy by showing that you (as a multi-leg high percentage bonus earning IBO) had a way to shut all of us up over whether or not you are "in the business" or just "part of the business". And that simply means are you successful enought that you have tome to do this.... or is this your business doing this?
I apologize if I offended you in looking for clarifiation, that was not my intent.
You are the one who acknowledged the Millionaire diamonds... I only restated that Quixtar says tehy make an avg of $150K from being IBO.... and since no one I've ever talked to in the business (while in it or since) has ever referred to Diamonds as anything but Millionaires, the other $800K+ must come from BSM. Seeing as all Diamonds are "retired" from their J.O.B.
As for P&L statement, who would compile it? You, an accountant? You could just type up a page of numbers showing profit and then some "critic" would indeed mouth off saying there is no credibiltiy. The advantage of the screencapture is we know you don't make it up, and there is information there to make the point of your arguments. Qualifying legs, bonus levels, all the other info on there that if you had we could rightly assume then that you are what you say you are. We all kow you support tools, fine, if you have a huge group you are probably at the point of making money from those sales too. fine. All I know is that, speaking for myself and maybe a couple others here), in a sea of crtitics a perosn going against the flow needs a raft. And if presented with information as what QBlog has shown, I would be a raft for you. I would be the person to tells other critics that Chris has credibilty. Of course that may not even matter to you. I am sure you are not here to win your case or prove any points, and that this is just diversionary time for you when you have nothing better to do.
Sorry if I rambled. BTW, are you familiar with my Quixtar site? Would you care to offer opinons on what I have said over there?
(Sorry for the shameless plug QBlog)
Chris -
Let me be as direct as possibe. I based my "But no-one seems to be doing that" statement on the fact numbers published by AmQuix. They have published the high, low, mean and median incomes for Platinums (and others) across several documents and press releases. Nothing I have seen in print even comes close to my simple calculation of what an all-retail Platinum could do with core products.
No, the average IBO grosses $1400 a year and the average Platinum $25K. And the cherry on the top is that out of 350K total / 227K 'active' IBOs, there is only about 4.4K Platinums.
This is so very, very simple. For the sponsoring model to work, people have to have an expectation of growth to entice them to sign up and 'build the business'. The people sponsored expect it, and the people they sponsor, and so on .
Since the world population is finite, and the number of people willing to this at all is much smaller, it means that the people at the bottom must and will fail. As they are right now, with gross annual revenues 0f $1400
'The system' is nothing more than a 'people churn' that depends on the promise of exponential growth to make it attractive. A growth model that is a shill and is not obtainable, and thus simply exchanges low-level IBOs after the current crop leaves.
QBlog, I just got off the phone with business relations.
The lady was somewhat helpful, and she said that she felt it would be fine to share the information on that page you request, but she wasn't positive.
She said the main reason that was there was so that IBO's wouldn't pass on the names and contact information to people like you, news agencies, telemarketers, etc.
So she wasn't sure, but I think that it would be allright for an IBO to share that info with you. So the question comes down to whether or not the IBO feels that they want to do it.
I personally think that the IBO shouldn't but that is just my opinion. I have backed up my views over several posts on this blog, so I am sure you don't need an explanation here.
Just thought I would pass it on, that the screenshot, if you think it actually provides useful information, should be allright for an IBO to pass on.
Thanks for backing me up Exec. I agree with you that I don't need to show anything.
But I also agree with the critics that if I did show something that it would help them out.
But do I really want to help them?
Roger, where did I refer to a diamond being a millionaire?
I remember assuming once that a double diamond with Q income and BSM income could be a millionaire, but the average Founders EDC and above made $746,122 last year without tool income.
So I don't think you got the $800k figure from me.
This is not a fictionalized account, this is my attempt to get the truth/facts out of 'Chris'.
QBLOG, I'd ask for a royalty check but my alias and contact info is null and void!
Instead of laughing the way to the bank, I'll just sit here and laugh at Chris!
HA HA!
Chris,
I stand corrected that you said Double Diamond, but the words were separated in the sentence. Everyone else I have ever dealt with has said "Diamond". I went back and found your post . I know that in the new "quixtar-age" the word "free" has supplanted "Millionaire" to allow for non-diamonds to be counted as the success stories.
On a slightly related topic. can you point me towards the information that Quixtar has regarding the blogs? I have all the information about websites...and the difference between personal sites that push Quixtar (and thus require the "approved" number) and sites that promote the BSM business (like TOD and BWW0 which don't. But there are many blogs by TOD members and not to mention Billy, Jody, and Orrin's sites taht mention Quixtar as "powered by" or give reviews of products and news announcements and such that carry no "approval". When you were declined approval, did you plan to focus on creating a blog that could be called a recuiting or sales site? Or just discussing products and features?
I have looked at the various rules cause I have tried my best ot be in violation of them all on my site. See, I'm not an IBO, but according to Quixtar rules I am held to their rules cause my wife is. I never signed or agreed to anything. Any and all help you could give me in this endeavor would be greatly appreciated.
Mike, your analysis of the network marketing model is debatable.
Your statements here are a little wild, but let's see if I can grasp your points.
"Nothing I have seen in print even comes close to my simple calculation of what an all-retail Platinum could do with core products."
> What print are you looking at? All the print that I have seen shows average incomes which means that some made more and some made less.
An all-retail platinum would make more, and a 2 leg platinum where one leg qualifies and other hits 2500 would make less.
So where do you get your math from for these calculations?
The average Founder's Platinum made $32,686 last year. So if an all-retail platinum did 7500pv each month, and let's say 20,000bv each month, then there checks would be roughly $5000 each month.
Compared to a baby platinum example above with only 2 legs, one large one small who would make around $500 per month.
So if you calculate averages, based on the many IBO's at that level, you get a figure around $32,686.
Here is what is funny about this. If we take the average of 2 IBO's, one at $5000 and one at $500, then we get $2750. Multiply that by 12 and you have $33,000. You can't get any closer to the average income right there.
So if anything, there is nothing to establish your claims, and everything to assume that there are profitable, sales-based platinums.
"...the average IBO grosses $1400 a year and the average Platinum $25K. And the cherry on the top is that out of 350K total / 227K 'active' IBOs, there is only about 4.4K Platinums."
I know that we don't have much to go off of for statistics, so this is the closest thing we have to use, but statistics like these don't give an accurate view of incomes or success potential.
They are skewed by the many IBO's that don't do anything. The guidelines for "active" are too weak in my opinion. Someone can just attend a hotel meeting and register and they are "active". Even if they never do anything for their business.
So I think it is unfair for critics to use these statistics against IBO's, but I understand it is all they have.
In my organization, the success rate is 100%. I say this based on the IBO's who are plugged in to the BSM's and events, taking mentorship, showing the plan minimum 15 times per month, 300 personal volume from members, clients and their own shopping, and excited attitude about the busines.
So if I IBO's have a success rate of 100%, then why won't everyone make it? Because not everyone will choose to do those things. It's that simple. I am speaking from my personal experience.
Then on top of that, times change, so now organizations are much more effective at structuring groups than ever before. This means that more depth will be built, and less IBO's will quit.
So if I would have built depth early on, instead of building width the way I did, I would be much, much further than I am today, with a much more secure business.
So the newest IBO's have a better opportunity today than they did in previous years.
Roger wrote: "When you were declined approval, did you plan to focus on creating a blog that could be called a recuiting or sales site? Or just discussing products and features?"
My plan for a blog is a blog similar to this one, but from an IBO with a positive experience. So I would want to talk about and address all the issues related to the Q business.
For example, I would write about the differences between Costco and Quixtar, Partner Stores vs. Affiliate Programs, understanding elements of the compensation plan, understand the rules better, on and on and on.
Basically everything that I have commented about on this blog, only I would think of the topics myself.
My goal would not be to recruit. In fact, I would never register someone that contacted me from something like this. But Quixtar sees that if I am an IBO and I have a non password protected site talking about the benefits of the business and there is any way for someone to contact me, then it is violating their rules.
I think the rules are good, because we don't want to flood the search engines with a bunch of prospecting sites, so i am figuring out how to make this work out.
I don't want it to be just a personal journal where I sometimes mention Quixtar. I want it to be dedicated to Quixtar, just like this blog.
Those other blogs are in violation, but seem to be put together as part of a web initiative, so I am sure there is some experimental leeway going on for them.
Blog are very new, and most people have never even heard the word, so you would not see the rules of conduct for IBO's updated yet with that term. But it clearly states that you need to run the site past them for approval.
DF - you are such a genius. Oh wait, how would I know that because I know nothing about you, but you want to know stuff about me.
The majority of those critical of the Quixtar business always ask for proof of the IBO's business numbers for "credibility" to listen to the IBO.
But I have never once seen a critic post this same type of information about themselves to give them "credibility.
So should we call them "hypocritics"?
To answer your question, Chris, no. Simply put, business is business, and personal is personal. And when we are talking about Quixtar and profit/loss, we are talking about business. If we were talking about what I do to make money and I was making claims, I would understand if/when people wanted income verification. But we aren't talking about this at all. Therefore, my income as it pertains to this forum about Quixtar is personal. However, your Quixtar and other's Quixtar income is business.
And no matter how many times I asked, either personally or online, never once has an IBO shown me a Schedule C. Which is one reason I never signed up. Having dealt with buying/selling traditional businesses, not being able to take a long, hard look at the books is a sign something is being hidden. For example, while the IBO's I know never did open their books for me to see, all of them marveled at the size of their tax return, which is also a big siren going off. Why? Because when a business owner gets a big tax return, it usually means he/she is losing significantly more money then the return, as profitable business owners usually owe the government at tax time.
And again, one last time. I don't want to know people's name, address, social security number, etc. I want IBO's, who present Quixtar as a business opportunity to verify their income claims, as I ask of any other business owner/person telling me of an income opportunity.
Chris,
Thanks for directly answering the question about your proposed blog. It is an interesting idea. I hope you see it to fruition. Seriously, It sounds sound and wish you the best.
Questions on your 100% success rate:
---quote
In my organization, the success rate is 100%. I say this based on the IBO's who are plugged in to the BSM's and events, taking mentorship, showing the plan minimum 15 times per month, 300 personal volume from members, clients and their own shopping, and excited attitude about the busines.
So if I IBO's have a success rate of 100%, then why won't everyone make it? Because not everyone will choose to do those things. It's that simple. I am speaking from my personal experience.
---end quote
isn't it unfair to present the "plan" as Quixtar arranges it, or even the modified TOD depth paln (which Quixtr allows) only to then take all the "optional things" that are not mentioned until after the prospect signs up and say "do this and you'll succeed" otherwise you don't.?
Isn't that the same "Tools are optional so is success" mantra that we hear but everyone denies saying?
The "plan" as drawn shows success is possible without any of those things. just "show the plan" 100PV a month not 300PV (150 in TOD plan).
I've never understood the "Go-getter" reward anyway... STP 15 times a month and you are recognized by the group (at least in TOD)... sign up none of them and still get rewarded with trips to Orrin's house or where ever. But, those are also people that are "plugged in" to the tools. If I did no tools and did 15+ showings a month would the rewards be the same from the upline? (rhetorical as you can't speak for other lines)
History lesson, we were plugged in, went to every event, every hotel plan, bought all the tapes, had standing monthly orders, and worshipped the Diamonds like we were told to.
Only once did a speaker ever give any information about how to help the business. I wish I could remember his name, cause he talked about ways to break through fear of cold-contacting strangers. Granted one example was hang out at the mall and keep approaching people and asking the time, but it was something. Every other tape, seminar, or non-STP event was a rah-rah "i used to be broke now I'm rich thanks to the system" story. Or bragging about vacations and purchases and things they do with the money.
And STP sessions, we were expected to be at every plan-showing if we had someone coming or not, paid to get in...the usual 90% IBO and 10% prospects in the crowd. And we were expected to go to Big Boy afterwards for the "night owl" or you weren't serious. That consisted of the various "leaders" fighting over who gets to buy the Diamond his coffee (hell he should have bought for all of us), and everyone breaking into little groups and discussing tools or your prospects (if one showed up ) or lack there of.
Again, sorry if I got long-winded. Guess you bring it out of me.
Roger,
What you are talking about is the same bull I encountered during my time with my organization. Yet, I believe you were tied into Dex's group in some way as was I. And guess what?..so is Chris. If the system is so duplicatable, then why are we not doing the same thing as Internet? Because other diamonds broke off to be more profitable through the tools, maybe?
However, Chris keeps saying that his group is different.
Do you know if TOD has the 100 000 people it claims to have? If that's the case then they are the biggest contributors to rebuilding a dying rest of the crew...only Chris's organization is flourishing? It's possible but I find it hard to believe.
Chris -
The number I came up with is based on the the following numbers from the SA-4400:
- BV:PV ratio: The ratio for Health, Self, and Home products as of Sept. 1, 2003, is 2.74. The ratio for all other products is 2.00.
- Retail markup: The difference between the amount you pay for products and their suggested retail price. Retail markup
for Health, Self, and Home products in the Choices Catalog or from www.quixtar.com averages about 32% of your IBO cost, but
varies with each product.
- Business Volume (BV): BV for Health, Self, and Home products averages 86% of suggested retail. BV for all other products averages 40% of suggested retail.
- If your total monthly PV is: 7,500 or more Your Performance Bonus is: 25% of your BV
Thus,
1) 7500(PV) X 2.75 = 20550(BV)
2) 20550(BV) / 0.86 (BV to retail) = 23,895 retail sales
3) 23,895 / 1.32 (retail profit) = 5792
4) 20550(BV) / 0.25 = 5137 (rebate)
5) 5137 (rebate) + 5792 (retail profit) = 10929 (total gross)
131K /year
That is a revision the earlier number that I did in my head, but is still substantial.
Any sponsoring cuts into the rebate and the retail profit. Period.
Chris, you can dismiss the statistics forever, but they still exist and they mean something. The fact that less than one out of hundred 'go Platinum' means something. In any other business, it would mean that someone was going to court.
Here, it is just a sad fact of life and doesn't matter as long as about a thousand Emeralds and a couple of hundred Diamonds get to make more tapes and you get to be one of them.
That is living definition of greed...
Truthseeker, I was under the impression Chris was under TOD. He constantly refers to the "depth" and not width...it is an assumption cause I don't recall him saying he was TOD or BWW or what. Chris, do you care to clarify?
Also, I was under yager's InterNET Services, by way of Scott and MJ Michaels, down through Jim & Patty Guldberg.
Orrin was a disciple of Dexter Yager until he went Diamond and got approval and help to split himself from Dexter and start his own BSM production.
Orrin is doing in his "depth" centered "tap-root" leg, what Dexter did in the 80's then called a "Depth-charge". No money was being made by the lines, but it increases numbers rapidly until it starts to fall apart from the lines not making money. I believe there is documentation floating around that Orrin's group has the lowest avg PV, part of why they expect greater that 100 PV per person "plugged in". At the point that the depth starts to fail, they'll suddenlyt start pushing width to combat it...just like Dexter did.
If Orrin is indeed over 50K in his line, and the number of IBOs hasn't changed significantly in 30 years, he is growing at the decline of other lines. I have heard TODers claim doubling numbers every two months and 600% growth every year. Hell, if Orrin had 10K people in 1999, he'd have over a million by now using either of those figures. and there are still only about 300K IBOs total.
Of course we know that one Diamond who has a Diamond below him, both count the IBOs beneath them as "in their group". So I guess that is another example of successful "duplication"
Mike said:
---quote
Chris, you can dismiss the statistics forever, but they still exist and they mean something. The fact that less than one out of hundred 'go Platinum' means something. In any other business, it would mean that someone was going to court.
---end quote
But Mike, allow me to be Devil's advocate of an IBO.
One of a hundered? How many people in your business are at the top? One right? and everone below him makes less money right? That's the same argument that defeats the "pyramid scheme" plan the critics use right?
Now this is not directed at Mike, but "you" refering to IBOs.
WRONG. The IBO tells you this isn't like a J.O.B. or a regular business, so they don't compare, except when they want them to. Well I say they do in one regard. if you are the "Business Owner" in the BO of IBO, then you are the top guy in your "business". you are the equivalent of that CEO at the top of the company you compare yourself to.
In traditional business, "one of a hundred" or less are the "big guy" at the top, the rest are employees.(IBOs don't have emplyees until you produce BMS) In Quixtar each IBO is supposedly that top guy for his own business. Therefore more that 99% of those businesses fail cause they never reach Platinum. (we won't even discuss Diamond anymore since Platinum is now "free")
That sure makes those fake "3/4 of all small businesses fail in 5 years" that the diamonds talk about seem like nothing in comparison. Since even Quixtar says 50% of new IBOs don't renew each year.
take apart my analysis, I'm interested in the other views.
Sorry if this gets long QBlog, but I have about 30 minutes until my next appt. so I am going to kill time by responding to the dozens of questions asked to me here.
----
Roger said:
"isn't it unfair to present the "plan" as Quixtar arranges it, or even the modified TOD depth paln (which Quixtr allows) only to then take all the "optional things" that are not mentioned until after the prospect signs up and say "do this and you'll succeed" otherwise you don't.?"
> I don't show the plan that way and I have never seen it shown this way. The "optional things" are mentioned as part of the plan, and so no one would register and then have those sprung up on them.
I think it is fair to say a statement like: "I have never seen someone succeed without these materials, but I have seen people succeed with them. They have helped me and I believe they will help you. They are optional and I recommend them to help get you trained with your business."
Of course I would go into detail about the cd's/books/meetings/seminars, and how each one could potentially help them in their business and why.
"Isn't that the same "Tools are optional so is success" mantra that we hear but everyone denies saying?"
> I don't deny saying that. I have said that. It is an honest statement, and is usually told as a joke. It usually gets a laugh, because people know that success is optional, and that if they do nothing, they get nothing. I like that line because it let's people know that they tools are optional, but that so is their success :)
"If I did no tools and did 15+ showings a month would the rewards be the same from the upline?"
> Yes
"...and worshipped the Diamonds like we were told to"
I doubt you were told to do this. This is you exagerating. I don't mind the sarcasm but readers can often not tell the difference. It is normal to show respect for someone who is mentoring you and is a symbol of success in your industry. This is not new to Quixtar. It is common practice in the business world.
"Only once did a speaker ever give any information about how to help the business."
> Roger, come on. You must hold the highest standard I have ever heard for what constitutes information to help you build the business. If I were at those same meetings, listening to the same stuff, I could have pages full of notes for information I could apply to help me build my business.
"...Or bragging about vacations and purchases and things they do with the money."
This makes the critics sound hypocritical. They want IBO's like me to prove I am successful, but then when a Diamond does it, it is called bragging.
IBO's need to know that the money is there. They need to see the lifestyle to get motivated. Not all, but some. My sponsor was broke and their car was like a pinto or gremlin or something. They were just getting started in their business.
This didn't bother me though because I didn't need to see their success, I just needed to see the success and hear the stories from those who had put in the work.
Again, me and you hear the same tape and come to opposite conclusions. Not that your's were wrong, but the system needs to cover a general audience, and most people need to hear the stories to gain belief that it is possible.
This is the same for every industry, not just Quixtar. I don't think the Diamonds I have heard were bragging, but instead showing what was available if the IBO's did the same thing. We all have the same plan. I have the same plan as my upline Diamond. I can even pass him up. His lifestyle is a motivating factor for me. So I think they should continue to tell the stories.
"...fighting over who gets to buy the Diamond his coffee (hell he should have bought for all of us".
Why should the Diamond buy coffee for you? He is the one that traveled out there to teach you what he knows and share his story with you. If you had an expert in your field willing to sit down with you, you would expect them to buy you coffee because they made more money than you?
No, common sense thinking would be for you to buy the coffee for them, especially since you weren't paying them for that hour or so of time.
I have wrote in the comments below about hotel meetings and my thoughts on them. I think they are important even if you don't have a prospect because the day you do bring one, you are hoping it is the biggest turn out and the best speaker. If only the people with prospects showed up, the meetings would not have the same big picture effect.
If you were showing the business plan 15 times per month and not able to get new people to every hotel meeting or at least most of them, then I would hope that you get with your mentor and work on getting better results from your plans.
As a community, you show up and support the local events otherwise their wouldn't be local events and it would be that much harder to build the business. This is a benefit for IBO's and you make it sound like a hassle.
Not to mention that hotel meetings help people stay focused instead of getting distracted by the drama of their life. It is very easy for a week to go by and do nothing in your business because there are always life distractions. Hotel meetings help to keep you on track and that helps your success rate. Vote Yes for Hotel Meetings in 2004!
About these "late night" meetings. They are optional and you are not required to go. They are very beneficial though. At a hotel meeting you will often have people come from about a 1 hour drive or less, sometimes more, and they make it in time for the presentation.
These are people that you don't get a chance to see in person on a daily basis, so the meetings afterwards were arranged to help get the in-person discussions about things going. This is very important.
It also gives a chance to hear more from the guest speaker of the night about things that they weren't able to cover in the 1 hour presentation. These meetings are optional but very beneficial.
> As for your most recent comment, I am not in TOD, but am in a line that is part of the Yager system.
Almost all organizations that I have heard of have moved more towards a depth building strategy, and it is working very well for those that are doing it.
I think that TOD is one of the best organizations out there and I have nothing but respect for them. Depth keeps more people in the business, and helps train them so that they set up their next legs correctly instead of going wide and having a bunch of people quit while you figure out how to build the business.
Yager may have tried this in the past, but times change, and if he knew what he knew now back then, he would have been more successful with that strategy. TOD is paving the way for the future community structure for Quixtar and I am behind them on those efforts.
When you drive down a deep leg, what happens is the newest IBO gets some experience in that leg because the team builds it together. It gives the newest IBO more belief, and they can actually watch instead of just hear how to build the business.
Once they learn the ropes, then they can start up a new group and build depth in it, and then start up another and so on. The new groups have a higher chance for success because they are being led by someone who is more educated.
Before this strategy, it was more of a "mud on the wall" strategy where IBO's who didn't know what they were doing would be starting up new legs and they would fall apart just about as fast as they would start.
This strategy solves many of those problems. It is a much more organized way to build the business that keeps people focused.
As far as IBO's claiming 600% growth each year, they were likely talking about their own business. In the beginning, a business will grow very large percentages, and as they get bigger, they will grow at smaller percentags but still, any growth over the previous year is good.
Just take a look at the OTC Bulletin Board stocks vs. Dow. The percentage growth rates are huge for penny stocks because any movement is huge. Same with new franchise companies. Then they get listed on the cover of franchise magazine with like 12,000% growth!
So if you had 1 IBO's last year, and then 6 this year, you grew by 600%. To keep that up, you would need to have 36 IBO's the next year, 216 the next year, and 1296 IBO's the next year. So you can see how in the beginning the percentage growth could be that high, but of course it will level off.
If TOD is growing year after year, then they are doing just fine. That is the general goal of a business, to be doing better than the previous year, and to stay in business.
I don't see why you get so upset about insignificant things. How does this affect you at all?
"The IBO tells you this isn't like a J.O.B. or a regular business, so they don't compare, except when they want them to..."
> What are you doing here Roger? You are the one that is comparing IBO's to J.O.B.'s.
You are not going to get an accurate analysis by using these comparisons, believe me, I thought they were good at first, but they just aren't specific enough.
For a comparison you would need to find something more similar to compare too.
There are thousands of opportunities out there where there is a business owner with no employees. That would be a start.
Then you can find situations where independent contractors are able to make overrides on other independent contractors.
These are just a few ideas, but if you want to try to go somewhere with this 1/100 statistic you will likely just go in circles.
It is a mathematical calculation.
A(people) x B(Volume) = 7500(Platinum)
So if A=1 and B=7500, then 100% of people at any given time would be platinum.
If A=3 and B=2500, then 1/3 people would be platinum at any given time.
If A=25 and B=300, then 1/30 people would be platinum... and so on.
This equation does not show what percentage of people statistically "achieve" the platinum level.
For that you would need to set up a poll with a large enough number of IBO's to get decent results.
You would need to establish minimum standards for all being polled such as timeframe, consistent monthly activity, etc.
To make sure that those being polled were actually participating in the workload it might take to achieve that level. A poll like this would give a much more reasonable figure to go by.
This would be similar to a gym trying to get some averages. No matter how you look at it, the success rate for gym members will be so low it will look like gyms don't work! That your odds of success in physical fitness are like 1/1000. So no one would work out or join the gym.
But to get an accurate figure, you would need to set standards to get better figures, like "people who attend the gym regularly(5x per month minimum) achieve X results. This would help you to see whether that gym would help you achieve your physical goals. Is this making sense?
It would be ridiculous to say "the average X result for "active" gym members was Y." (where *active* means all gym members who went at least 1 day last year).
This is an issue that I have with critics throwing this in the face of IBO's. But I will agree that since there is no data currently available, it is tough to say otherwise. I would like to see my upline diamond do a survey of the entire organization to get some results. If we end up doing that, I wouldn't mind sharing the info with the rest of you.
Talk about long winded, I hope this answered the majority of your questions Roger.
Mike, as far as you, you have good intentions with your math, but it is easy to get carried away with numbers. I have done that and QBlog has corrected me and I acknowledged him for that. He was right with the numbers, but I still felt my point was right. You might feel the same way.
The reason I think your numbers are off is because your math is equal to mine and the companies math as well, but then you add retail profit.
Well, retail profit is what the IBO marks up to the customer and they get to keep that outside of the transaction.
Your calculations make 4 assumptions.
1) All retail sales are for the FULL retail value as determined by Quixtar and not the IBO.
2) All products are purchased at retail cost directly from Quixtar, insead of the IBO ordering at wholesale cost and then retailing to the customer.
3) All sales are done to clients and not members.
4) All sales are strictly core-line products that have a 2.75bv ratio. Which limits many very profitable products worth retailing available to IBO's.
Here is why I think this is an unreasonable calculation.
Because when an IBO retails products, it would be more beneficial for them to make the purchase at their wholesale cost and then sell to the consumer.
This allows them to have the retail profit upfront instead of having to wait til' the 15th of the following month. In some cases this could be as long as a 45 day wait for that retail income.
It would also be more fair to assume that the IBO would offer discount pricing if they bought in bulk, which would cut into his profit margin, but would still get the volume and the sale and would still be worth it.
If the IBO wanted someone to actually place orders directly from the site, they would more likely set them up as a member, to help create loyalty for repeat purchasing through Q-Credits and wholesale prices.
and on and on and on.
The bottom line is that an IBO that made $40k as reported from Quixtar may have easily made another $40k in retail mark-up.
If I am wrong, please correct me, but the statistics that Quixtar uses are based on what amount of money Q paid to IBO, not including amount collected by IBO from customer.
For this figure you would need to see tax returns or P&L statements. Heck, I might be wrong here and maybe it is against Q policies if you retail and don't report the difference to Q for their books, but I think I am right on this one.
--
Sorry if there are spelling mistakes or missed questions, but I don't have time to edit before my post. I hope this answered everyones questions.
Wow, that was longer than I thought. Might want to get a bookmark for that response :)
"Sorry if this gets long QBlog..."
Heck, I don't mind. My point remains, IBOs don't provide proof of their claims.
Neither do critics.
Maybe so.
If a man claims he can cure cancer, I would ask for proof.
If a man makes no claims, there is no requirement for proof.
IBOs routinely make income claims, I ask for proof.
If IBOs stop making income claims, I stop asking for proof.
Chris says,
"One more thing about On the Road with Dave. That blog doesn't have a discussion about the Quixtar business the way that mine would. So I do think he might be able to get it approved, but I have read through there and it's more like just a personal journal for Dave. This is not what I would want, although I think it is great for him.
I would want to blog like this that discusses issues, but allows a pro-quixtar IBO to choose topics and be in control of the posts."
Yes, my blog is not a recruiting vehicle for my Q business. I am very pro-Q and I do discuss Q issues at my discretion, such as non tools use, favorite products, etc.
Your idea of a blog sounds more like the old Amway Fact or Fiction site..anybody here, remember that one? It was a rebuttal site for the very first sites such as Amquix and MLM Survivors.
I think the difference with my blog, is that it shows I don't eat, drink, and sleep Quixtar. I have opinions on a wide variety of topics.
Also Chris, you mentioned somewhere else that you thought I built my Q business "passively".
I don't build it passively, I'm actually quite pro-active, but just not in the sense you may be used to.
There are quite a few IBOs building this way.
David,
I also mentioned that I had respect for the way you built your business.
As far as your blog, I like it alot. If I wanted to do a personal journal blog, I would look to yours for example. Keep up the good work.
I didn't bring your blog into the conversation. It was brought up as an example of a pro-quixtar blog that didn't have problems with Quixtar.
My question to you Dave, is did you follow the guidelines and submit your blog for approval? If not are you planning on doing that? I would love to hear how that process goes.
So the only reference I made to your blog was that my blog would be harder to approve because it would be more like this Quixtar Blog. I love the debates when it comes to perspective on the issues, and I would love to blog about it, but I realize why Quixtar might not want IBO's to do that.
Anyhow, I hope that clears that up.
--
QBlog, here is my problem with your last comment. I do not think that is usually how it happens.
A more typical dialogue between critic and IBO would go like this.
--
IBO: I think that the tapes and seminars have helped me in my business.
Critic: If the tapes are so great, how have they helped your business? How long have you been in, and what was your last Quixtar bonus check?
Then if the IBO doesn't give out that information, the critics use it against them forever from that point on.
So your example doesn't fly with me.
--
Want me to prove it? Let's look at my specific situation. My posts on this blog started on 9/16/2004.
I had just posted 2 comments talking about how I thought the tools had actually helped me develop as my business. Then on that very first day I started getting hit up from critics with comments like this:
"If the tapes are so great, how have they helped your business? How long have you been in, and what was your last Quixtar bonus check?"
Posted by: Doug_G at September 16, 2004 08:42 PM
My point is this. I don't mind the critics asking questions. They can ask whatever they want. But I hadn't made any income claims. What was I defending?
So when I wouldn't show them my books, they kept persisting for more and more information.
I gave in a little and gave them more information about me. Not exact figures or paycheck stubs or anything, but I gave them a general idea for where I was in the business and financially.
But then they just used that against me and wanted more, more, more. So I decided I didn't like the pushy attitude and made a decision not to give them that information.
I had respect for you because you weren't like them, so I said that if I disclosed that information to anyone, that it would be to you.
Then you wrote this post and threw out these comments and it made me realize that you just bow down to that lower level with the rest of the ignorant critics out there.
I know there are a fair share of ignorant IBO's as well, but I think there are some decent critics on here that can engage in debates and conversations about the issues. I respect them for that.
I was hoping you were one of them, but I am losing faith. Not completely, but faith is dwindling. Still enough to move a mountain, but my faith is only about this big now - http://tinyurl.com/kt6g
Chris,
Don't make your own blog. I don't have time to read it. I barely have time to read this blog. I'd rather just see your rebuttals and experiences here.
The question of exactly how much you are making is really less specific to you and more specific to the general trends of uplines to be as vague to their downline as possible so the downline assumes the best. There is a culture of "faking it" in the Quixtar business that is unhealthy for everyone involved, especially those considering running with that business opportunity.
Chris -
I can see this exchange is pointless.
The scenario I laid out did indeed make the assumptions you pointed out. I chose those parameters specifically to highlight the amount of money a distributor that built a Platinum business COULD make if they focused on retail.
Instead of the lousy $1400 they're making now.
Chris, did you ever take a statistics class in school? There is no way to misinterperate or misunderstand that over 99% percent of all of the people that ever become involved will, for all purposes, fail.
No-one needs a survey to understand a 99% failure rate. One of two things happened:
- A number of people that wanted to have their own business tried and failed
OR
- A number of people were enticed into something that they were not qualified for
Which one?
I don't care about arbitrary guess work that suggest "XX% of the people that really tried to go Platinum made it".
I don't care.
All that means is that they were content in the fact that almost everyone was going to fail, and they were going to derive a benifit from that.
And this is what is all about at the end of the day. People that build a sponsoring-focused business rationalize the fact that they are facilitating and promoting failure. That they are not building a distribution business, but a hidden, self-perpetuating support business. That the guys on the bottom always going to get the short end of the stick, unless they develop the same ethical ambivelance that the leadership has.
I think this Chris guy really makes some good points. My first 6 months as an IBO I shared my income openly with everyone only to find that it was used against me. I would be judged on how successful I was so far. Now I am making more money and I am not as embarrased of my slow start. I find that people do not ask me anymore about my income because my confidence is higher. I have read the points that you guys have made against chris but I agree with him. I think he is really intelligent and i wish that my upline was more like him. my upline was not able to answer many of my questions early on, so i researched things on the internet. I only got negative info and I didn't agree with what I read but i wasn't as gutsy as chris to discuss it with you guys. I am glad that there is a voice for us on here because it evens things out an makes them more interesting. I am reading your blog now because of his comments and it has become very intriging. If everyone wants to see me be successful before they join with me then I will never be successful because no one will join with me. So in a way, it is like a catch 22. Oh by the way Chris if you read this, I don't mind your longer answers because the shorter ones from other people dont always explain things enough.
Dan,
You seem to be forgetting something. Aren't IBO's supposed to be able to make money selling stuff to customers? Why is it you think an IBO can only be successful by recruiting? Isn't that an indicator of an illegal pyramid, if one can only become successful through the recruitment of others, or "joining your team" as you refer to it?
Chris:
I think you have about 1 year left in the stereotypical 2-5 year plan. I hope you continue to pursue the business and we can watch as you miss the 5 year mark and start to become disenfranchised with 'the franchise'!
It will make for great blogging--better than reality TV!
Dan,
Thanks for the kind comments. I understand what you were trying to say, and I think you hit it on the nail.
Concerned Citizen,
I think you misunderstood what Dan was trying to say. Did you not care that an IBO took the time to post about this issue and how it affected them?
I think it is obvious that Dan wouldn't run into the problem he had with his members and clients, because they were not likely to ask him how much money he was making so far. This is a question that only potential partners would ask.
So just because he doesn't mention his efforts he puts towards sales, you automatically hit him up with comments like:
"Why is it you think an IBO can only be successful by recruiting? Isn't that an indicator of an illegal pyramid..."
Anybody reading this post can clearly see that Dan never said that an IBO can only be successful by recruiting. So here you are putting words in his mouth and suggesting that his business might be an illegal pyramid. That is just wrong, and you might want to apologize to him.
Df,
Why do you assume that I am on a 2-5 year plan? How do you know that I haven't already achieved my goals? What if I was on a 1 year plan? Or a 10-20 year plan? You stereotype IBO's and then you hope that they have a negative ending with their business. You are twisted man. That is just wrong.
I can appreciate critics who debate issues in a reasonable fashion, but to hope that you can see my business fall apart and watch me get "disenfranchised" sounds like an evil thought.
So here is my question to you. What goal do I need to hit, in your eyes, to have achieved this supposed 2-5 year game plan successfully? What are you using as the definition of "success" for an IBO in their business?
Hey Chris,
Want to jump to the forum to continue discussion?
The one thing that had always bugged me about the "system" is the claim of "100% success rate", yet no proof. Does this bug you too?
BTW, before you think I'm a brainwashed member of the anti-amway cult, I netted $7k in Quixtar last month, all retailing.
Jen,
I have never heard a general claim about 100% success rate for people on the system. There is no company-wide statistics available on this, so individuals can only talk about their own experience.
So for instance, I can say that 100% of the people in my organization who are plugged into the system, showing 15 plans per month consistently, and are plugged into a successful mentor for guidance as they build their business are having success. This is based on my own personal experience. This is factually true in my organization.
I can also say that I have not personally met anyone who has ever succeeded without the system. And that could be true for me, so that claim would be accurate.
Here is the problem I have. It is a people business, which means that sometimes people get it wrong. So just like the game of telephone, when things get repeated, vital information will often be left out.
So a new IBO could hear my statement above and when they repeat it, they might leave out the "personally met" portion of my statement and say "100% of the people who didn't plug into they system didn't succeed. And they would think they were repeating what their upline told them and that they were right. But that statement would not be factual.
So yes I have a problem hearing false promises and unfactual statistics, but I give newer IBO's the benefit of the doubt.
When a bigger pin, like Platinum and above repeats something that is false then I have a problem with it, and if a Diamond says a promise like that, then I truly would raise and issue with that Diamond and ask for a correction.
If he was willing to correct it, then that is good, but if he didn't then I would have a problem with that diamond.
To date, I have never personally heard anyone ever make a claim that if you plug into the system that you will have a 100% success rate, and if I did hear that, I would ask for clarification as to what the definition of "success" was and how they got that statistic.
So maybe we see eye to eye on this issue.
Wrong Chris,
Here is what Dan said exactly:
"If everyone wants to see me be successful before they join with me then I will never be successful because no one will join with me. So in a way, it is like a catch 22."
He clearly states that success is not possible if no one joins with him. In a legitimate MLM you can be successful just by selling products to real customers for retail markup, without ever having anyone join your group. This can be done in the very first month as well, so there goes you negative pyramid dubunking comment I read on another thread. In the very first month you should be able to retail and make atleast $50 to cover the Quixtar startup fees, this would prevent the negative pyramid. Why does Dan not understand this basic concept, of retailing product to real customers. Could it be because his upline leaders don't encourage this behavior?
And I do care about the fact that Dan is a real person, I am trying to help him out with this peice of information that he seems unaware of. Precisely why I posted to him.
CC,
Dan never made any mention to not retailing products.
His definition of personal success can be what he makes it. So to him, success could be based on building a downline, not just retailing. I think that is a fair personal definition of success for someone.
Since there are many definitions of success possible, it really comes down to either a personal definition or a general definition.
Critics always seem to base their definition of success based on pin level, and related things. That is why they are always saying things like, how many new diamonds have their been since the launch of Quixtar and stuff like that.
So if success was based on pin level, then how would an IBO be able to achieve the emerald level or above without sponsoring people?
If success is not based on pin level, then why do the critics make such a big deal out of pin levels?
So it ultimately comes down to what the general definition of success is, because the individual definition of success can vary from a change in attitude, to a multi-million dollar residual income, based on who you ask.
So I still stand behind Dan in his catch-22 thoughts, and I appreciate his comments in this post.
Hey Chris,
For your personal experience, how many downline worked the system as spelled out and guided by you (eg how many STP 2-3/wk for x months)?
Was the rate of sponsoring and retailing the same for everybody (eg 1 out 3 became an IBO, 1 out of 3 became a retail customers)?
For those not achieving results as expected, what did you do to evaluate and resolve (bad breath, forgot to follow up, fear to overcome)?
Jen, great questions. I will consider answering them, but I first need to try to understand where you stand on this issue of this post.
My credibility is constantly attacked on here from critics when I don't provide proof on my income. You on the other hand make income statements and nobody asks you to back them up.
Will you please tell the critics on this blog where you stand on this issue? Why should any of them listen to you if you won't back up your claims?
If you really made $7k last month, then you would be eager to prove it to these critics right? I mean, according to QBlog, all you would need to do is log onto your pv/bv inquiry for october and do a screenshot, then black out your name. This would show proof of that amount of income, and would give you credibility of your word.
So how do you feel on this topic? Explain to the critics reading this why you don't need to prove your income, or just prove it. What are your thoughts?
QBlog wrote: "Well, actually I have a few ideas but nothing I can prove."
So what are these ideas of yours? I mean, the fictionalized example that you use in this post is close to conversations I have had on this blog. So what are your theories on why I haven't shared my income yet?
Hey Chris,
When I provided details of my business, the response I got was along the line of "we don't care about individual testimony". The other response was "that's horrible money" (at the time, I believe I was netting $1k, maybe $500, the previous month).
In any case, I sometime turn their argument on them and they'll get riled up. Ex: I posted, "I wonder how that silly urban legend got started: 90% of businesses failed within the first 5 years". Their response was right on the dot--poorly define "failure", repeat it often enough, and it'll become an urban legen.
Of course, I use that exact same logic and apply it to "Quixtar 99% failure rate" to show this statement is silly, and I got accused of bait and switch. LOL.
I had given up on critics. My perception is they will never ever see any positive. They have no problem using data from Quixtar when it can be twisted into negative, yet any data that show positive, the response is "how can you trust any data from Quixtar"? Too funny. Or this one: "Have you taken any math class in college", in reference advocate not understanding averages showing how poor Quixtar numbers are (I have a PhD in Math & Physics). Or this one, "If you think you can make money in Quixtar, you need to go back to business school" (I got an MBA, also and I doubt any critic's income is higher than mine).
As far as proving income goes, it's financial suicide to make income claim, especially to prospect. Not because I got something to hide, but because the law punish you severely if you don't follow all the laws. For example, if you make an income claim, you are also required to state the percentage of ALL ibo making that income, ave time to get there, and possibly the geographically breakdown, too, depending on state. Some state will consider this as a guarantee of income level, so you'll be on the hook if the prospect doesn't make your income level. Saying "this data is for my business only" doesn't get you off the hook. And since it's impossible for you to provide the required data, you just hung yourself by making income claim.
In building my retail business, I rarely make any claim. The only 2 points I stressed are 1) here are references, call them and talk to them about their experiences with the products and me and 2) here are the products, 100% money-back guaranteed for 6 month, even if you used the entire products. Evaluate the quality by using the products at no risk. Like it, buy it. Don't like it, don't buy it.
In regards to the "system", I'm part of WWG and personally talked to a number of Emeralds & Diamonds, including Puryear. I talked to Platinums, to crossline, upline, IBO in other AMO, and I just don't see the abuses. They showed me their financial data and I do see positive growth.
I'm not active in WWG because the possibility for duplicity is still there. So until WWG become transparent and make public necessary financial data to ensure no duplicity, until WWG open up the Executive Council to platinums and to low-level pin, the possibility for abuse exists with no way of keeping it in check.
Jen:
I have my MBA from a Top 10 school and I guarantee that I make more than you.
Maybe you should reapply what you learned in school in your real J.O.B. [you still rely on your 9-5 paycheck, right?] and actually make a legitimate buck.
Just a suggestion.
Jen, thank you for taking the time to respond. It is good to hear a voice on here that doesn't attack IBO's and the business model.
I hope that you are truly having success with your business, and I can see why you are not participating in an organizational structure, although I would see more benefits of doing that in addition to your current sales plan, but that is just me.
I agree with you on several points in your comment. I am not totally sure about making claims on personal income though. As far as I understood it, you can only use corporate approved figures or your personal income/experience. I was not aware that if you shared your personal income, that you would also need to show what an individual has to do to get there.
I got my information from a Quixtar lawyer, but I did not ask him enough to be fully clear on this specific topic.
All in all, thanks for the response.
Really df? My taxable income for 1999 & 2000 is 800k and for 2001 to 2003 is 400k. You want me to include the value of my vested options and estimated value of my unvested options and my unrealized capital gain, too???
9-5 paychecks. What are you smoking?? You have an MBA and you work 9-5??? Try 5am - 9 pm paycheck. Yes, my paycheck is a large percentage of my income.
What's a legitimate buck??? Owning Halliburton?
Chris, I'll check again, but I'm pretty sure the FTC income claim guideline make no distinction on sources (corporate vs personal). All income claims must have an accompanying stat showing one of 3 things: 1) % of IBO achieving said level, 2) average time/expense to achieve level, or 3) forgot the 3rd one. 2 & 3 are very difficult to satisfy, so that's why all the income claim use #1 (eg x% of IBO achieved the Q-12 level shown in the 6-4-2 Sales & Marketing Plan or the 0.0000x% of founders EDC+ achieving an average of $900k/yr etc).
With regards to org, I just don't see the need. I'm not a missionary and don't see the need to help anyone/everyone succeed. If someone ask me to help them, I'll provide guidance. But if they quit, they quit. The other problem is the possibility of duplicity. If I were to start an org, I'll be transparent. If I were to join an org, I want that org to be transparent. I understand the need for privacy and confidentiality, but enough must be transparent for a person to judge the possibility of duplicity.
Thanks for clarifying that for me Jen. Yes it really does come down to personal preference. I love the aspect of helping people, and I am more of a missionary I guess.
I personally don't think you 2 should be arguing who makes more money. The only way to truthfully answer this is with proof, and so if you both are going to continue, then proof is going to need to come out, because words are just words.
I made $6 trillion last month too, so you both lose. :)
df is just being an @$$. All his postings had been filth. I'll call his bluff--he won't show his tax returns.
I thing I don't understand is why the disparity between what I read and what I experienced.
For example, from Eric S, he wrote how the diamond gave his ruinous advice, turning his good financial standing into disaster.
On the other hand, my personal experience with Puryear had been the direct opposite.
In a "leader meeting" (only ibo present are those who had put in the work of 10-15 plans/wk over a couple of month), one of the ibo asked Ron what to do about his not-so-supportive wife. This ibo was willing and roaring to show the plan 6-10/wk, but his wife doesn't want him to do that since it'll take time away from them together. From reading all of the critics, I would had expected Ron to say, keep going, you'll be free soon and then you can spend all weeks with her. Instead, his advice is absolutely level-headed. His advice, slow down. You're building this for your family. 2-3 night/week is sufficient to build a ruby business. Spend all Sunday with his wife. Once a month, take her out someplace special. After he had achieved ruby, paid off all the debts, and have accumulated 6 months saving, then go 5+ night/week. Once he quit his job, he can spend the day with her, so the 5+ night/week will not take away from the family. Totally opposite of what I expected after reading the critics.
Another ibo asked how hard he should push his downline to attend functions. From reading the critics, I expected to hear push them hard--attending functions is the most important thing anyone can do. Instead, Ron advice, if the ibo is not ready, back them down to "prosumer". Don't make them come to product pickup, instead, deliver to their house. Always service people at their needs, never push them. If someone only want to be a customer, service them at their need. Service them as a customer, don't push them to become an ibo.
Jen, I couldn't agree more. Thanks for taking the time to provide perspective. Too bad you are not choosing to build an organization because you would probably make for a good upline. But then again, it sounds like your game plan for sales is working out just fine. :)
Chris said:
My credibility is constantly attacked on here from critics when I
This doesn't solve the problem that no matter what information you give a critic it will be used negatively. Every single piece of information I have released has been used against me so far, so why would I be motivated to release more?
Then comes my next question. Why do they need the information. What are they trying to gain by seeing my statements? Why should only the IBO's be required to provide proof of their credibility but not the negative critics?
If I was a 4000pv IBO, would you, QBlog, have more credibility than me on the topic of Quixtar? How would it benefit you to know my pv?
Then let's look at what is on the screen shot that you are requesting.
You cannot figure out how much income someone is making or how their business is structured at all.
For instance, the IBO could have 20 legs and be qualifying at 7500pv with no qualified legs. They would be very profitable, but not many in the group would be.
Or you could look at the same figure and that IBO could have 2 legs with 1 at 6000pv and the other at 1000pv for a total of 7000pv. This would not be anywhere near as profitable so there is really no way to get an accurate view of how much money the IBO is earning.
So what information would you be able to get? Total volume and personal volume.
So what if my upline is driving depth in one of my legs and I am at 6500 group volume with 100 personal volume but only 1 leg. It would show me at the 21% level and it would look pretty profitable, but in that situation I would only earn like $40 on my check, compared to $1000's if that business had more width. And I might not even know anything about the business at all.
So what are you trying to gain with this screenshot exactly and why?
Posted by: Chris | October 28, 2004 9:05 PM