« = Questions Regarding Quixtar | Main | - Quixtar Lies »
October 25, 2004
Monday Reader Mail: 18
By QBlog in Reader Mail
Today's reader mail selection addresses the somewhat controversial topic of homosexuality and Quixtar. I've completely removed the guy's name from this email and replaced it with the name "Mike."
name: "Mike"I appreciate "Mike's" kind words about this blog. I really do try to be as objective as possible and I'm glad that my efforts haven't gone unnoticed. In my email response to "Mike" I basically told him that I never noticed any anti-gay sentiments while my wife was involved with Quixtar but that I never met any openly gay IBOs either. Of course I didn't get around much in Quixtar so my experience shouldn't be considered typical. There may be many openly gay IBOs, I've just never met any in person or online.
date: October 20, 2004message: Howdy, I'm "Mike," and a soon-to-be Quixtar IBO. I greatly appreciate your site. You really do seem to have an objective perspective. Just as listed in the "about" section, many other webpages I've read are strongly pro or con. I've been exploring the opportunity of Quixtar for about 4 months. I've attended several functions, done Google searches, and asked dozens of questions to my potential sponsors. I'm reasonably satisfied that there are no more serious scams awaiting me than anywhere else in life, provided I keep my eyes open and pay attention. Here's the thing, I'm 38 and openly gay, and have yet to find another openly gay Q member. All of the folks in the organization I'll be joining are devoutly Christian.
After searching your site for "gay," I only found a few postings. If you have anything new and not yet posted, I'd love to read about the experiences/consequences of other openly gay Q IBOs. I have joked with myupine that I will be Quixtar's first openly gay diamond, and what a trip it will be when she introduces me and my partner on stage at a function. If you are interested, I'll keep in touch with you about what I experience. I've subscribed to your newsletter, and look forward to getting it.
"Mike"
And though I never noticed any anti-gay attitudes while involved with Quixtar, I have noticed such feelings on various pro-Quixtar blogs. As part of my email response, I intended to include a link the "Sicko" remarks about homosexuality on a certain pro-Quixtar blog but discovered that those remarks had been removed (thankfully). Yet even with the removal of that particular post, the impression some get after reading many pro-Quixtar blogs remains — that there is a sort of litmus test for IBOs before they'll be accepted in the "Quixtar family." The "Right to Differ" may be Corporate policy but it seems absent from much of the culture, at least the culture that's visible online. The apparent characteristics of an "acceptable" IBO are:
- Republican
- Heterosexual
- Married
- Born Again Christian
Obviously there's nothing wrong with such characteristic, they are shared by many great men and women. But such an exclusionary culture would seem to discourage, rather than encourage, diversity within a business. Is there room for an agnostic, openly gay democrat in the "Quixtar family?" I sure hope so in the same way that I hope there's room for an openly Christian, heterosexual Republican in the "Disney family" or the "Proctor & Gamble family."
I hope "Mike" achieves his Quixtar goals. I hope that one day he's able to walk across some stage with his partner as a Quixtar Diamond. Do you share that hope?
Monday Reader Mail publishes every Monday and contains actual emails sent in by actual readers. The content is not edited except when noted.
Comments
You may be right Roger. It's odd that "Mike" hasn't responded to my email. I view pretty much every email suspiciously and this wasn't an exception. However, I try to give folks the benefit of the doubt, as I did in "Mike's" case. If he was sincere, then good for him. If not, then at the very least it's given me an opportunity to explore the issue of homosexuality within Quixtar.
I hope Mike has a good experience with Quixtar. The people in my upline LOS were not only deeply anti-gay, but extremely homophobic. There was zero tolerence for even joking on the topic. Had Mike come to the same open I used to, he may have even been asked to leave.
Yeah, the LOS I was in (True North) didn't have much good to say about gays/lesbians.
Other than they're the devil, and they're going to hell. While I think it's great to have a value system, I think it's maybe hypocritical to tell a crowd of people that you love them all when there are gay people in that crowd.
I think that as long as they kept buying tapes and paying for functions, nobody would squawk too much. Ahhhh values. Ain't it great!?
Imanewme said:
I hope Mike has a good experience with Quixtar. The people in my upline LOS were not only deeply anti-gay, but extremely homophobic. There was zero tolerence for even joking on the topic. Had Mike come to the same open I used to, he may have even been asked to leave.
and I say:
Well, most, and I do mean the majority of people who express Christianity without being asked, are anti-gay.
There are religious people, who aren't gay, who are not anti-gay...but they are not the people who express their religion before (or as a basis for) everything else.
There are even very religious homosexuals, most just do not belong to a standard "organized religion"... as those religions usually do not profess any support for homosexuals. If there are any in said "organizations", they are surely in the closet.
I remember reading about the "Gay Republicans" group that could not get any support from the RNC, as the main party has a "view" which is "anti-gay".
Funny thing about that....both Newt Gingrich's daughter and Dick Cheney's daughters are gay, as well as Ronald Reagan's son Ron Jr.
Maybe a bit too oppressive at home?
I have openly gay/lesbian liberals in my organization, and I have met several. One of my larger organizations (legs), was started from house meetings for a lesbian couple. I would say my organization is probably about 60/40 republican/democrat, but that would just be a guess since I do not know everyone's political affiliation, or sexual affiliation for that matter. Some people keep that private and seperate.
I have also heard speakers that were jewish democrats. They even spoke about their belief and were supported by people in the audience. I think they are going to be huge speakers on the Yager circuit in the near future when they achieve some higher levels.
I think that if our nation chooses the direction of openly accepting gays/lesbians more, then you will see the business world accept them more as well. But currently, the majority of our nation is not even for recognizing gay marriages, and the vast majority of our nation is heterosexual.
I myself am a republican and fit more of the stereotype you have for Quixtar IBO's. I think that it also matters where your organization is geographically. Organizations in California probably have much different views on this issue than those in Oklahoma, and so on.
I have also asked a lesbian couple in my organization what they thought about Dexter Yager after hearing him speak about his beliefs and the business, and it didn't bother the couple at all. They told me that most people have different beliefs than them, and so this is not unusual.
I also had another lesbian couple give up on their business, and it could have been for any number of reasons, but I believe it was because they were pro-socialism and they believed there is only a limited amount of wealth available and that they didn't have a chance to become wealthy and so on. So they think that the government should redistribute wealth, and therefore they disagreed with the heavy free-enterprise belief that Quixtar has.
In summary, I think that if you register somebody in your organization that is of different sexual orientation or political affiliation, it is still your responsibility to be their sponsor and help them succeed. I do not doubt that there will be a wide diversity of speakers that have achieved success with their Quixtar-Powered Business.
We are seeing more acceptance of gays in many circles of influence, especially online with bloggers like http://www.boifromtroy.com/ and http://gaypatriot.blogspot.com/. My bet would be that this is only the beginning. Who knows where it will go.
"and I say:
Well, most, and I do mean the majority of people who express Christianity without being asked, are anti-gay"
Roger, what would be your source for this piece of information?
PW
Chris,
Would you like to provide the name of lesbians couple in your organization, specially those up higher in pyramid? Are you in TOD or BWW? So I could verify?
It's just that notion of having Gays and Lesbians in Quixtar meeting? Nah! I would have to see proof of it, as it's contradicting of what I saw.
To Mike:
I was in the Britt group and he said from stage he was against the "acts" of homosexuals. Behind closed doors they are against it. I had heard of the gay community in california trying to get a gay couple diamnond and that made all the big pins very nervous.
Sorry Imran, but that is an unreasonable request. I think it would be rude to say their names or talk about anything more specific than what I have already mentioned. On the other hand, I will consider seeing if I can have permission to either mention their names on this blog or possibly share an email dialogue or something of that manner.
I don't care if you assume that I am lying because I don't mention their names without their permission, and that is fine, but my comments are true. I am not disagreeing that the majority of the free-enterprise-christian-republican-value-based-business-world is mostly anti-gay, but I am simply letting readers of this blog know that all races, religions, and beliefs are welcome in the Quixtar world.
As far as Dexter Yager choosing to let a gay or lesbian business owner speak at a major conference, I see no reason why he would not. I can only assume that if a gay or lesbian couple achieved a high level of success like diamond, and a group requested for them to speak, that they would get to speak like everyone else.
Dexter speaks about what he believes in, but he wants people to gain conviction for what they believe in, even if they disagree with him. He knows that many people do not share his views, but the fact is that if he puts together a major function, then he gets to choose the speakers and so I believe that right is his.
As far as opportunity, it absolutely exists for gays, lesbians, heterosexuals, democrats, republicans, christians, jews, buddhists and anyone who desires to achieve success with their own business.
I like the positive attitude of the person in this email because he is motivated to go against the odds and achieve success. Being openly gay is already against the grain and causes controversy, so this person is already standing up for what he believes in, and I think if he can continue this attitude as he builds his business, then he will have great success.
Where did I get that opinion? Personal experience...and even more so of late with all the flyers and crap I get in the mail saying to vote republican because it's the religious right thing to do, they oppose same sex marriage. From the Catholic and other Bishops around the country telling their parishners voting for Kerry "is a sin" cause he supports abortion, same sex marriage, and stem cell research. From my personal experience in Amway in the Yager line, where it was bragged about Ron & Diane Goldman being converted to Christianity from being Jewish by the business, as well as others.
Chris, I am sure that any gays/lesbians that you told about Dexter Yager had less concern about him than he would them, seeing as they would be more tolerent than him...but none would be "not bothered at all" by the intolerent hate-mongering that Dexter Yager has said about homosexuals.
Granted, YMMV, but I base my opinion on experience
Sorry if this sounds like shameless promotion....but send mike to me. I'll register him as an IBO and he won't have to buy tapes. And if this sounds like I'm just jumping on the subject to look good now, I'm on record in the Qblog Forum as stating this before.
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?t=567&highlight=gay&sid=b21a2f7040e068b5f9d46181d413377f
Good idea! if he's gonna build the business, might as well do it without those that would likely shun him anyway. Dave doesn't have a secondary agenda in BSM.
Please don't ask Chris to back up what he says:
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2004/10/the_quixtar_web_initiative.php#comments
I'll save you all a pile of time. Sorry if I've made some sort of breach of etiquette here. Just proving a point. He expects people to back up their claims, but is not so good when asked to do so for the claims he makes.
For the record, I don't believe the claims about his group size, or the existance of gays and lesbians that Dexter would allow to speak. There's lots of stuff on the net from Dexter's own mouth where he makes it clear the gays & lesbians are wrong.
Chris's posts are lengthy, and lack real substance, in my opinion. Many questions answered that nobody asks.
Rocket said: "Please don't ask Chris to back up what he says"
Let's end these little games Rocket. I will answer questions if they are reasonable. It is unreasonable for me to post names of gay and lesbian IBO's that I know without their permission first. That goes against my character. You need to understand that and get over it. I will ask them and maybe there is a way we can get them involved in this discussion.
You asked me for my password to log into the site to do price comparisons. No way. I don't hand out my password to anyone. I told you how you could get price comparisons yourself.
I was asked exact numbers of the size of my organization and my line of sponsorship, as well as my financial statements to be displayed to the critics. I choose not to release this information at this time. Especially not to the negative critics that are asking for it.
I do not see a valid reason for me to release this information and it will be used against me in a negative way no matter what I give you. Plus you will always ask for more.
The critics have stated their opinion of the acceptance of gays/lesbians in IBO organizations and I have expressed my opinion. They are all based on personal experiences, which might vary from IBO to IBO. Yet you are asking me to provide proof of my experience as if I am not really experiencing it. If you won't believe an IBO when they talk about their personal experience with the business, then why even ask and why do you even care?
I was asked to provide proof of statistics that I have seen, heard, and passed on. I provided the source of my statistics, and when you couldn't get those statistics from business relations, I even offered to call them back myself and get them again. I did that and got some answers and will get an email shortly with more. Just how am I not backing up my statements?
If this is going to continue, then I guess QBlog might lose an IBO voice to this blog because it takes up too much time to go back and forth over petty issues in comments. I have more free time than before because I have built this business and I am earning a decent income that doesn't require as much time, but I prefer to keep that time "free time" and not dedicate it to having to answer pointless attacks.
I love discussing issues and having a voice on posts, so if others on here want to keep it real with issues then this blog will continue to be the leader of Quixtar-related blogs on the internet, but if it is all just negative views, in my opinion, the blog becomes much less interesting.
Chris, fine. End the games.
1. Scan the CR#18794. You said you won't have a problem getting it, in fact, I believe you said you have it?
2. Validate your claim to 800,000 IBO's members and clients, or show me where it can be verified.
That's all I've asked for. Not a big deal, but you're making it one.
Here's a site article along the line with the discussion we WERE having.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/douggiles/dg20041023.shtml
The title of the article?
"A Christian Can Be a Christian or a Liberal, But He Can’t Be Both"
This is the same mindset as those Catholic Bishops calling a vote for Kerry "a sin", and along the same mindset of those higher powers within the various LOS'. The "aren't you Christian and voting Republican to support the church" people.
Sorry about that Rog, and everyone else. That was rude to interrupt. I read your link and it was quite thought compelling.
Thanks for sharing Rog.
Rocket,
no harm, no foul. I understand your enthusiasm, though it may have been poorly placed (or worded). Even Dexter yager published his checkd for a few years. information can be provided and with appropriate safety concerns met if the information was actually wanted to be presented.
Chris,
I don't know you, don't know your group. I know of the groups, I was in the Yager organization under Scott & MJ Michaels, with Ron & Diane Goldmen, and with our Diamonds Jim & Patty Guldberg. I was in Cleveland for Dexter functions and I heard the man speak. I've heard his tapes. I've heard him brag of convincing a pastor of a small church to build his Amway business instead of his church cause he could spread God's word to more people that way.
I am not saying that everyone in the various LOS are intolerent, gay-hating, bible-thumping, ultra-conservative, christian, right-wing, fanataical, self-serving liars. Just the people leading them.
To make a broad "all IBOs are bad" statement would be disrespectful and negligent, and more along the lines of the statements made by people attacking the critics of the business.
From what I've experienced, from what facts I know, from the information I have gotten, I have the opinions that I have. Until someone can give me the opposing view with as much information to back up their viess, mine won't change.
When I get rank and file IBOs telling me "how great it is, and what money you can make, and how free you will be" and they aren;t any of them and their only defense is "such and such Diamond did it"....doesn't do it for me, cause the Diamond got their from the BSM. I've done conversations with Diamonds, I was 3 people down from our Diamond, (us - sponsor - upline - direct - diamond) and I remember now how little he actually said for all the speaking he did.
Again, YMMV.
Roger said: "To make a broad "all IBOs are bad" statement would be disrespectful and negligent".
Yet in the same post you wrote that all the leaders of the various LOS's are "intolerent, gay-hating, bible-thumping, ultra-conservative, christian, right-wing, fanataical, self-serving liars".
I find that disrespectful and neglegent because you are making claims about people you don't know and don't know anything about. I think that if you have an opinion of the "leaders" that you have met, then express that opinion. Go for it. But to say that they are all like that is pretty ridiculous.
Your experience has let you get to know your specific upline leaders. Beyond that you have heard others but probably do not know many of them personally. Beyond that there are hundreds of "leaders" of LOS's that you have no idea about and it is very disrespectful and neglegent to make those claims about them.
Your last point is about how you seem to not believe that IBO's can actually be free from the business because their upline diamonds supposedly did it from the BSM's. This is an issue that has been brought up many times from critics and is actually worth debating.
It ultimately comes down to the definition of "financial freedom" or "free" or what "success" is in the business. Many people feel that if they had $100k coming in per year, and they didn't have to go work for their boss everyday, that they would consider themselves free.
So do they have to continue to build their business everyday? Are they "trapped" in their business and not able to get free? Well that depends on how they set it up.
Why is it so hard to believe that someone can go emerald, and help leaders in each of their legs get very profitable, and then implement an exit strategy, and when the business gets solid through a good amount of depth, and there are leaders in place that are tight with the leadership of the LOS, then that emerald IBO can be free.
This is without even including any extra income that can be generated through BSM's, speaking engagements, real estate investments, stock market, or any other sources of income.
The average founders emerald made $95,493 last year. This figure is not including any other sources of income, just the earnings they receive from Quixtar directly. The average founders diamond made $275,102 last year. Are you saying that they can't be free without the BSM's?
I think that a more fair statement is that their lifestyle would not be as great without the BSM's, but it would still be great, and there is plenty enough income with the Quixtar opportunity to become wealthy, or "financially free", (depending on definition of course).
For many IBO's, their Quixtar-Powered business is the foundation for their income, and opens the doors for them to be able to generate significant income through multiple sources.
My last thought for this comment is that I truly believe that the BSM's are beneficial to success for an IBO, so it is a good thing that they exist. I am glad that there is incentive in place for IBO's to move these tools through their LOS's and the majority of people utilizing these tools that I have personally met have nothing but positive things to say about how they have helped them in business and in their life.
So when critics like you attack this area of the business, I don't see what the big deal is, and I have not personally met someone who has built the business to a decent level without utilizing some sort of BSM's yet I have seen many people try. So if I set someone up in my organization without BSM's then I personally believe there is a greater chance of failure for them.
You can argue that they would have failed anyways, and maybe that individual would have, but with the BSM's they have a better chance for success. I think that the best thing a sponsor can do is set their new IBO up for the best chances of success possible by encouraging them to utilize their organizations training system and business support materials. This is common sense.
Wow, a greater chance of failure than less than 1% without the BSM's. I didn't think that would be possible for the failure rate to get even lower.
Chris, too much to quote all of it, so I will mini-quote:
>Yet in the same post you wrote that all the leaders of the various LOS's are (snip)
Yep, I'll take the hit on that one, I was too quick in my response and should have said the Diamonds I know. But, the Diamonds that I did deal with, they referred me to other diamonds via tapes, functions, etc...and those sources all gave the same shared perpectives for the other diamonds. I never was presented with a Diamond or told of a Diamond, that did not meet with the same characteristics of my Diamonds. Remember, this was all under Yager, the Grand-daddy of them all.
> Go for it. But to say that they are all like that is pretty ridiculous.
The ones that aren't like that....most likely aren't building a BSM based religious-themed group. But in all cases, no matter what group you discuss, the common answer is always "yeah, that XYZ group is like that...but not mine we're ABC." Funny thing, ABC says that about XYZ. If confronted, each and everyt group so far that I have talked with will admit to problems "elsewhere".
>Your last point is about how you seem to not believe that IBO's can actually be free from the business because their upline diamonds supposedly did it from the BSM's. This is an issue that has been brought up many times from critics and is actually worth debating.
You yourself support this theory! You know of no one that did it without tools, hence the tools are the business. Could the Diamond make $200K a year without the $800K his tools bring in?
is the Emerald making $100K a year from Quixtar not making it only because he makes $300K (or more) from tools? Where does the tool money come from...only from the IBOs...who are spending their Quixtar bonus (if they have any) or the money from their J.O.B to the BSM tools/
And convince me that an Emerald making $100K from Quixtar, and $xxxK from Tools, could just sit back and be "free" and still make the money. They are doing more hours keeping the business from collapsing constantly to keep the numbers they have (remember even Quixtar says there is a 50% non-renewal each year). But you are telling me that if they wanted to sit back and collect their "premanent residual income" that they could? The group would shrink, and I doubt any of the LOS leaders in the Tools business would continue to pay an Emerald their tools bonus if they didn't participate no matter how many tools their group biught. But, the tools contracts for the most part are secret, cause they are not part of Quixtar....it is a part of the business owned and maintained by the Diamond.
>The average founders emerald made $95,493 last year. This figure is not including any other sources of income, just the earnings they receive from Quixtar directly. The average founders diamond made $275,102 last year. Are you saying that they can't be free without the BSM's?
I'm saying, and I believe you agreed, that without the BSM business...you'll never see those amount to be free with. So the Question is moot, but I'll answer it anyway. Yes, I believe you could be free of working for someone else with those amounts....but you won't get those amount unless you are working for the Diamond's BSM business. And if you leave the BSM business, those amounts will dry up as well without the constant work USING BSM to keep the group from collapsing.
>For many IBO's, their Quixtar-Powered business is the foundation for their income, and opens the doors for them to be able to generate significant income through multiple sources.
if you are trying to say they got rich from Quixtar and then opened up a BSM business. I'll politely disagree. I think if you are a 6-figure income from GM like Chris Brady and Orrin Woodward were, and can afford (using your J.O.B money) to last long enough in the business to develop a group. you can be invited into the BSM business.
>So when critics like you attack this area of the business, I don't see what the big deal is, and I have not personally met someone who has built the business to a decent level without utilizing some sort of BSM's yet I have seen many people try. So if I set someone up in my organization without BSM's then I personally believe there is a greater chance of failure for them.
we partially agree then.
>You can argue that they would have failed anyways, and maybe that individual would have, but with the BSM's they have a better chance for success.
No, I am saying the plan as presented is flawed that you can not make money selling Quixtar to the public. You HAVE to build a group. The compensation is not based upon the retailing of items, it is based upon the purchase of items by others in your group. If the products were actually priced without the "middlemen" (several layers of IBOs) then a person could retail them and actually make money from the product...then people might want to join in, and then you could make some money from their sales as well. No, without a group, you don't make money, you can not retail only. Therefore the BSM was created to keep the group in.
>I think that the best thing a sponsor can do is set their new IBO up for the best chances of success possible by encouraging them to utilize their organizations training system and business support materials. This is common sense.
But I was in it....there was no training, there still isn't. It's all still rah-rah, STP, get more people, buy from yourself, stay motivated while you can't figure out why no one is buying.
yes, reading all the motivational books may make you a better person in some regards, (go read them without Quixtar) but not a better salesperson, not a better "IBO". It creates the addiction mentality to keep buying more tools and BSM, and btw, buy some Quixtar products too so we can pay you back a percentage of that so you continue to buy BSM that is the source of the lifestyle that yoou think Quixtar is going to do for you.
Roger,
I see that you put some quality time into your response, but I disagree with pretty much all of it. Your experience and mine are very different.
I have never seen or heard of a Diamond turning away someone in their group because they had different views. A better argument would be that the IBO got turned off because the Diamond mixed business with politics and religion and so on. I think that can potentially happen, but the Diamond is putting together that event and it is their right to talk about whatever they want.
Until you actually hear from a gay or lesbian that went diamond and was not allowed to be part of the Yager speaking circuit or on any tapes, then it is unfair to assume that they would be turned away. I think that Yager is fair, even if he disagrees with your beliefs.
> the common answer is always "yeah, that XYZ group is like that...but not mine we're ABC."
I think this is true and that is why it is a common answer. I think that groups are all run differently and IBO's truly see the difference. Every group has weaknesses as well as strengths. I think many are trying to improve on their flaws, and I would go as far as saying that blogs like this might even help the Diamonds with the future direction for their team. My organization is an equal opportunity organization for all religions, races, ages, and political affiliations.
Maybe I have never met someone who has succeeded without the BSM's because there are hundreds of thousands of IBO's and I have not had the chance to meet that many IBO's outside of my organization. Sure it is possible, but I just have never seen it happen.
> is the Emerald making $100K a year from Quixtar not making it only because he makes $300K (or more) from tools? ...And convince me that an Emerald making $100K from Quixtar, and $xxxK from Tools, could just sit back and be "free" and still make the money. They are doing more hours keeping the business from collapsing constantly to keep the numbers they have.
My upline Emerald doesn't work in my group so my leg generates an on-going for him. They spent a good amount of time getting me started, but now my business grows every month without them needing to do anything. This is proof for you.
Your theory is that the extra income from the tools is what gets the IBO to the emerald or above level. I do not agree with that theory. Of course the extra income helps, it would be silly to suggest otherwise, but if there was no tool profit available to the emerald, we would still see new emeralds every year.
Most organizations start their BSM profit sharing at the Platinum level and above, which makes sense and is probably the best starting point. There are many IBO's that build their business to the Platinum level without their upline Emerald doing much for them at all. So it is just assumption when you say that the Emerald can't be free because they spend all their time replacing their group.
If an IBO can go Platinum without tool profits, then why would you assume that they couldn't help 3 of their legs achieve that level as well. The additional income opportunities like BSM profit sharing and speaking and so on, are helpful to IBO's and they are an extra perk of the business that just adds value to the opportunity.
On-going income in this business comes from duplication. If you successfuly can drive depth, and teach it, then you will develop leaders in your organization that will keep that leg growing without your help. This creates an on-going income. The more groups that you can set up like that, the more on-going income you can potentially generate. Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
On top of that income you have incentive to stay in the business as a leader with an additional income through the BSM profit sharing program. This is a great way to keep experienced people in the business as teachers. It is completely optional. Would Quixtar stop paying you your checks if you decided to stop going to functions and plugging into the BSM's?
When is the last time you heard of someone having a leg 100 deep plugged into they BSM's that fell apart? It just doesn't happen, and if it does it is the exception and not the rule.
A major difference between Amway and Quixtar is the way in which organizations are being structured these days. Focusing on depth builds security and less people quit. You don't make as much profit upfront, but you secure a leg at a time, and it is a much smarter way to do business.
As more groups start to implement this strategy, we will see a lower annual turnover rate, and more successful business owners. We won't see people reach the diamond level as fast, but you won't see people spending all their time replacing their groups as you suggest.
> No, I am saying the plan as presented is flawed that you can not make money selling Quixtar to the public. You HAVE to build a group.
What are you talking about? You CAN and DO make money selling products. I do and so do many people on my team. There are voicemail testimonials all the time of deals that are generating thousands of dollars for IBO's and a great deal of pv. There is a wide variety of products available to sell and you can make a decent living from just selling products alone. Especially if you are registering your customers on ditto delivery. Your statement above is just false and you are misinformed.
I can go to the large corporation up the street and switch them from Farmer Brothers coffee to Nine to Five coffee and the deal would generate over 10,000pv per month and over $5000 in monthly profit. I can put them on ditto delivery and set them up so that they are happy with my service and that can become an on-going income for me. I can even pay someone to take a couple hours each month and manage my account.
And by the way, they pay more for Farmer Brothers coffee than they would for Nine to Five. Much more.
> there was no training, there still isn't. It's all still rah-rah...
You chose to not let it train you. I have found tremendous value in the training system and I have learned techniques and tips to help me in sales, speaking, showing the plan, contacting, leadership, understanding people, communication, vision, relationships, values, motivation, marketing ideas, dream building, goal setting, personality types, commitment, details of the business, statistics, and this list could keep going...
The bottom line is that the BSM has helped me to become more successful with my Quixtar-Affiliated business as well as my other financial ventures and I have learned skills that I apply daily in my personal life that amaze people that used to know me and I constantly get compliments on all the positive changes in my life. The training system and this business is what has taught me that.
Here's my take on you, Chris....
You spend way too much time on this post to be building a business of any substance.
You know the business, in theory, but you have produced no evidence that would suggest any significant level of success. (And this can be shared without revealing the confidential aspects of your business).
You are a great voice for the LOS kingpins as they need people like you to put the spin on everything for them
Chris,
first of all, thank you for the time you take. It's great to hear on both sides. It's not great actually, Its a must!
Being that said, I have a huge problem with this one:
>I have never seen or heard of a Diamond turning away someone in their group because they had different views. A better argument would be that the IBO got turned off because the Diamond mixed business with politics and religion and so on.
Chris, I have seen many IBOs turned off. Read the forum, trust me, members are not from mars ;) (as u said u have never seen an IBO whose experience is close to that of forum members.)
I, e.g. got turned off by constant Christianity in a business Seminar. I am not a Christian, but for 2 days in seminars we learn how Christian this business is, and on Muslim service how Islamic this business is.
>I think that can potentially happen, but the Diamond is putting together that event and it is their right to talk about whatever they want.
Chris, You contradicted yourself here.
Second, Diamond put up a function, really? Isn't that the other way around?
1 - City many times give hall free, given the business they get via car rentals, restaurants.
2 - IBO pay ticket, big part of diamond income. Diamond better watch what they speak, they are being paid for it. And pah-lease, no non-sense to ppl who have spent money and comfort, sacrificed sleep; living on food bars for few days, traveled hundred and in some cases thousands of miles to listen to these diamonds. They DESERVE to hear business, not what diamond want to say. It's IBO who have financed diamonds and seminars, not diamonds.
3) And what about diamond code for room booking? I'd venture to say diamond rent room for cheap as they book in bulk, and sell it at profit to their devoted downline via BWW.com etc. and many times the might have got their room for free! Try calling a hotel and ask what rates you'll get when you book 50 rooms. And how many free rooms you'll get?
Anyways, Just my 2 cents, as IMHO its NOT diamond’s right to speak whatever they want. Thousand of ppl pay them to learn business, not religion or homophobia.
Truthseeker,
I don't think that we have ever had a discussion so you must be basing your conclusions on reading my comments. So under your assumption, the other critics on here couldn't possibly be successful in their other ventures either because they take time to post on here too.
I work from home and I earn a 5 figure residual income which doesn't make me rich, but gives me a lot of freedom in how I choose where I spend my time. I book meetings and usually spend a couple hours per day about 4-5 days per week building my Quixtar-Affiliated business.
I spend a good deal of time on my hobbies and on education. I am currently studying a variety of subjects and that is one of the most exciting things in my life. Then there is family time, and social events. On top of all of that I am falling in love with the world of blogging and I eventually want to run my own blog. For now I just visit a list of bookmarked blogs and add my comments from time to time.
You wrote: "You know the business, in theory, but you have produced no evidence that would suggest any significant level of success. (And this can be shared without revealing the confidential aspects of your business)."
What evidence are you talking about? I like the aspect of having a certain amount of confidentiality, at least until I run my own blog, then I think the responsible thing to do is disclose more information to give the blog more credibility and appeal.
Let me know what evidence you are referring to, and maybe I can assist with more information.
By the way, I am going on a long vacation soon, and so I won't be on this blog as much during that time frame so you won't have to read my lengthy comments :)
Imran,
Thanks for the compliments. Let's clear up a few things.
I said that I have never seen or heard of a Diamond turning away someone because they had different views. For example; if a Jewish couple went Diamond, I believe they would be treated the same as a Christian couple that went diamond. I have never seen people treated differently or turned away because of a difference in views.
I did not contradict myself on the next statement because I do believe that sometimes speakers from stage might say something that someone disagrees with and gets turned off from the business, but that is their choice. There is a difference between a Diamond literally not letting an IBO be part of the team because of their beliefs, and that IBO getting turned off from something they hear the diamond say.
I do know that a diamond does have the right to not let somebody plug into their training system if they want, but I have yet to see that based on race, age, sex, religion and those types of reasons.
Your logic about functions does not make sense to me. Dexter Yager has a company called Internet Services Corporation that fronts the investments to put together large functions around the nation. They put on the functions and sell tickets to reimburse costs and hopefully make a profit. It is not the IBO's that put on the functions. IBO's like myself attend the events but do not put them on.
I can honestly say that I have never yet been to an event that I did not feel was a great investment of my time, energy and money, and I have been to dozens. I think they are very valuable, and I look forward to every single one. I learn a lot about a wide variety of topics and I would recommend the functions to everybody that wants to gain personal and professional development.
Why would it matter to me what price the Diamond is able to reserve a convention center for? That doesn't effect me. If the ticket is around $100 for a weekend event, that is such a low price I am amazed that they don't charge more.
They could easily charge $500 per ticket and the events would still totally be worth it. On the other hand, I am glad that they are so inexpensive because that way more IBO's are able to attend, so I appreciate them for having such low investments for events.
I hope that Internet Services Corporation is able to make a good profit on each event, because that way the events will continue to be available. I love knowing the a portion of each purchase goes to support a company that helps personally and professionally develop people. I like what Internet Services Corporation stands for and I want them to be as successful as possible.
I personally like it when speakers speak about their faith and how it was a key part to their success. I believe it. I have seen peoples lives transformed by the power of faith outside of the business, and so I know the power that it can have for IBO's as well. I have strong faith myself, and if someones faith has helped them to become successful, then they should share about it, regardless of what their faith is.
As far as room booking, your answer is a good one. If I can arrange to help book out 100 rooms at a hotel, then I have negotiation power. It benefits the IBO's because they get a better deal than they would have got themselves, and if there is still room for profit, then the one that organized the community to reserve those rooms can choose to profit, or get their room free or whatever. This is free enterprise and I support it. There is also nothing unethical about this, it is simply business.
My final thought here is that I believe the speakers can talk about whatever they want because the events are optional and people are paying to come listen to those speakers. There will always be a few people in the audience that won't like what they heard, but the vast majority of people will walk away from the event inspired, motivated, educated, and more excited to build their business than before they went to the event. I am speaking from experience, and I doubt that anyone would disagree with that statement.
By the way, the functions do teach the business. I doubt that you have ever attended one that didn't teach principles associated with the business. Why is it that after every event I get flooded with voice mail messages from people so excited to talk about everything they learned from the event? I have been to dozens of non-quixtar related seminars and conferences and they don't even come close in terms of overall experience. And most of them cost much, much more.
So we have different views which is cool, but hopefully now you can more clearly see why I feel the way I do about the training system.
In any event, I also wish "Mike" the best of luck. I would actually go to a function which featured a homosexual speaker, just to see what they had to say.
Have a good vacation Chris.
We will notice you not being here :0(
Chris,
We will just have to wait until you launch your own blog to find out more about your success. I'm looking forward to it.
Your longwinded responses and frequency indicate a time commitment that makes me question your success. But then again, maybe you live, eat and breathe this business, seeing that you devote a lot of time to this site and your business.
As for your assumption that I think all of the critics cannot possibly be successful at their ventures due to their time spent on here, I disagree completely. The nature of your business warrants a huge after 5pm commitment to be successful. Your choice of business models is different from many others on here.
A 5 figure income generating residual income? Highly unlikely, considering 6 figure diamonds are struggling to keep their "residual" business afloat.
Chris,
I just read your response to Imran. Do you honestly believe that Dex is hoping that he may make a profit from one of his major events? He knows he is going to turn a huge profit.
20 000 people x $ 100 minimum per ticket? (And barely cover expenses?) I've run a few moderate seminars...they are hugfe money makers, my friend. And the expense is tiny, especially when you recruit volunteers.
Again, it makes me question your success. You surely could not have benefited from the percentage a platinum makes on his people at functions, therwise, you'd know the income potential. Have you ever seen the payout structure for tapes, opens, books and functions? If not, you are not a platinum (in my estimation).
Truthseeker wrote: "A 5 figure income generating residual income? Highly unlikely, considering 6 figure diamonds are struggling to keep their "residual" business afloat."
Why is it so unlikely? Do you not believe that people can generate residual income. I can list dozens of ways to generate a 5 or 6 figure residual income that any reader of this blog can do.
What 6 figure diamonds are you referring to that are struggling to keep their businesses afloat. The diamonds that I have met seem to be doing just fine with their businesses.
When I refer to Diamonds, or Emeralds, or Platinums, I generally mean Founders levels and above. If a business can only qualify 6 months out of the fiscal year, then it is not stable enough to stay at that pin level.
So I will agree that there are some diamonds that might be trying to requalify by building depth to secure their legs, but can you name any Founders Diamonds that are struggling to keep their businesses afloat?
As far as my long responses, I type really fast, and even though the response seems long, it really only takes a couple of minutes to write, so the time commitment is actually not that long.
I have this site open in the background as I do stuff around the house and on the net. From time to time I check to see if QBlog has posted something new or if someone has responded to one of my messages. Some days more than others.
> The nature of your business warrants a huge after 5pm commitment to be successful. Your choice of business models is different from many others on here.
So what business model do the critics use then that warrants less time than mine? As far as I can tell, we all have enough time to contribute to this blog from time to time. I haven't noticed any significant difference.
Truthseeker comments, "I disagree completely. The nature of your business warrants a huge after 5pm commitment to be successful. Your choice of business models is different from many others on here."
The nature of any part-time business or hobby such as blog reading , would seem to take an "after 5" committment.
Either that, or all that post here are independently wealthy or take time to read blogs and comments while toiling away at a PC at work.
My schedule allows me to check my email first thing in the morning, maybe at lunch, and then after work.
As I do not attend meetings and do most of my part-time business online, I suppose I still commit to the after 5 schedule, but I can make a few posts, talk to a few people, read some blogs, watch some TV and still get in bed at a decent hour sometimes.
You make "Working after 5" seem so terrible. I know that even Qblog has been known to work after 5. You make it sound so wrong.
This guy is one of the most arrogant people that I have ever heard! To think that any one in the real Qsystem would ever accept him or his views is utterly preposterous. And personally I feel that all gay fags don't deserve to be part of this world let alone QUIXTAR! Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!
FYI--It's been a while since I've been here but I thought that this would help some of you.
I am a Ruby in the Quixtar business...but that's not the point of what I want to write about.
Currently in my organization my wife and I have 3 lesbian women. Though I am a Christian and do not agree with there lifestyle, I love them as people. In fact, I have told them all that they are some of my favorite people.
Furthermore...my wife was raised in a Christian home. But she also has a sister that is a lesbian and is living with her partner. Now she knows that we disagree with her lifestyle but that we love her. Just last week the two of them expressed interest in the business, especially the opportunity to market our new sports nutrition line.
Again...I don't agree with their lifestyle at all...and each of them know that. But who am I to judge?
Nice little bit of enlightenment there Ray. I hope nobody you love ever turns out to be homosexual.
You don't have to agree with it, and I'm sure they don't need you to.
Nice little bit of enlightenment there Ray. I hope nobody you love ever turns out to be homosexual.
You don't have to agree with it, and I'm sure they don't care if they have your support or not.
"The nature of your business warrants a huge after 5pm commitment to be successful. Your choice of business models is different from many others on here."
Dave R:
Your interpretation of what I said makes it seem so wrong to work after 5.
My point? That building a Q business to the level that Chris is talking....ie..residual income stage at a 5 figure income....requires a huge after 5 time commitment.
But this gentleman has enough time to post the longest posts in the history of the internet? Or are his mass army of distributors doing the work for him while he makes posts on this site?
Recommendation for Dave: Sensitivity Management Classes.
Chris:
I do not believe that you, a 5 figure IBO?, are making what you say you are making, and until you prove you are (you won't), your words are hollow.
(By the way, I'm a triple diamond, but I won't prove it...my point being, you tick a lot of people off because you make these statements without validating them)
you mentioned "What 6 figure diamonds are you referring to that are struggling to keep their businesses afloat." but then you said "So I will agree that there are some diamonds that might be trying to requalify by building depth to secure their legs"
So where do you find this evidence? Of diamonds who were featured in the profiles of success but are no longer diamonds? I believe Larson's site offers some former diamonds who have not stuck around? Perhaps LeBlanc would qualify. Go to Ada and check the names of diamonds. They have it right. No former diamond's names are on the walls.
Your blind optimism and naivity scares me sometimes.
Dave R seems to have a much more realistic view of things.
By the way, have a good holiday! I'm just shakin' your tree, man. You're a bright guy who adds a lot to this site.
Frankly, I think 'Chris' is a plant. Too much 'detail' without substance.
Truthseeker,
Let's clear up a couple of things. I do make a 5 figure residual income but I have never stated what portion of that comes from Quixtar.
Even if an IBO only made $1000 per month with their Quixtar-Affiliated business that would qualify as a 5 figure income, so why do you doubt me so much?
As far as the tool/seminar business profits, I do understand them fairly well.
In our organization, you do not need to be a Platinum and above to ask questions and get answers regarding the BSM profits. This is open to all who ask, so it would be hard to determine ones level in the business based on their understanding of this.
You do not know what Dexter's profit margins are like, so you are just assuming. I too would assume that his company, Internet Services Corporation, is very profitable in these ventures.
But it would also be safe to assume that they might not have been profitable in the beginning. Many businesses take a loss when developing tools and putting on events in the beginning. They bring on speakers that are sometimes out of the range of the budget, but down the road these investments pay off.
They have learning experiences, like developing tools to sell at the next event, and loading a decent inventory of them, just to find out that there was a problem with one part of them and they all needed to be changed in order to get corporate approved. So their company would take a loss on this.
My point was that "I hope they make a profit", not that they don't but since I don't know their books, I can only hope that they are profitable. On a smaller level, I know that many Diamonds take a lot of risk financially when setting up events and training systems for their teams.
Many organizations have "hotel meetings" in different cities across the US and some of those meetings don't make enough to pay for the rooms and fees, and some make more than enough.
The bottom line is that the Diamond's company is fronting the investment and assuming the financial risk in developing the BSM's and the events, and so when there is profit, they should stand to gain from it.
Then on top of that, how do you even know how much a Diamond chooses to pay himself from his BSM company? They may choose to reinvest their profits into developing better tools, and throwing bigger events with larger guest speakers. They might choose to buy all their own equipment to put on these events rather than rent the equipment and so on. A diamond might not actually be profitable from their BSM company for years.
The bottom line is that I have studied the BSM business and I feel that there are some improvements that can be made, but that they are doing very well so far for the system that is in place.
I would like to see all Diamond organizations use the same BSM profit system, and agree on something, that way they could tighten up the whole system in a way that would benefit all.
At least within the Yager organization or the Britt organization, this would be a good starting point. I do believe there should continue to be BSM's provided, and I like it when the Diamond gets involved in developing tools themselves, that way they can tailor the materials more towards the direction the team is going in.
For example, if the organization is very open and even promotes gay/lesbian business ownership, or any other controversial area, then it would be great for them to release many tools themselves that supports this. That is just one example.
You can choose not to believe me when I talk about personal experience, but I am just simply an IBO who is excited about his business and who doesn't see everything with the negative perspective that many critics out there do.
I think the critics are entitled to their opinion, but you should spend less time trying to devalue my comments, and more time trying to understand why I, and thousands upon thousands of other IBO's see the company this way, after lots of research and analysis. Even after reading some of your negative comments!
By the way, I would say it is fair to assume that an average Platinum has about 40-50 people at an event. Just how much do you think they stand to gain from promoting the event tickets. When you do the math, you will realize that it is not that much at all. I think the system is good, as it rewards you for the larger of a community that you build. Just like the compensation plan for product volume.
You still haven't provided the suggestion for how I can provide proof of where I am in the business, while keeping confidentiality for fairness. You said this was possible, so let me know how.
If you don't like the long posts, then skip past them, but several people like it when I take time to explain things and offer perspective.
Have you ever considered that as an active IBO, I learn a lot from having dialogue with you critics that I can apply in my business to help my team become more successful? Wouldn't that be a good thing that would make you feel happy that you could help contribute to the company moving in a more positive direction?
So why blast me for the time I spend answering questions on this site?
Chris, from your comment under "Quixtar The New BLOG Shop"
"I have been involved at least as long as the launch of Quixtar. I have many people in my downline and that number changes weekly. My last check was very nice and I have stated in the past that I am currently earning a 5 figure income from my business. That could be $99,999 or $10,000. I will leave the wondering up to you."
It may be seeing a negative spin again Chris, but that's not really how you come accross in your latest post. Might just be the way I'm reading it.
As for you not being able to see "everything with the negative perspective that many critics out there do." Is it really negative if its true?
My dad always told me there is nobody so blind as those who choose not to see. With respect Chris, you seem a little blind to me.
Case in point (here comes another long-assed response) non-competitive prices, that you absolutely refuse to concede any ground on. You just sound completely irrational, my friend. It's hard to take you seriously when you refuse to admit any kind of flaw with your business.
Again, with respect.
Rocket,
Some of the prices are higher, some are lower, some are even. It depends on where you are comparing them to.
If you want to buy something from CircuitCity.com, you would get a better deal by being a member or IBO with Quixtar and shopping there than if you went directly there yourself. The same goes for all partner stores.
The non-exclusive products on Quixtar are competitively priced, and there is a very large selection. Much larger than Costco and most places. So these products are priced very fairly.
The category of products that you think are priced too high are the Quixtar exlusive brands. These are exclusive to Quixtar and you can't find them anywhere else.
You are right, because I think these products are great, and are worth paying a little bit more. If you are comparing something like toilet paper, then Costco will win every time, so I will concede that you can find much better deals on some of the products at other places.
But overall, there are plenty of members and clients that shop and are very happy with the prices. IBO's generate an income for shopping from the site, so of course they are more loyal to their own brands of products.
If you owned a gas station, and gas across the street was cheaper, you would still get gas from your own station and support your own business. So I hope that you can see why I have a different perspective on the product pricing than you do.
but isn't buying from the partner stores direct cheaper than buying from them through Quixtar?
and aren't brand name items bought from Quixtar more expensive than buying from stores?
Qblog, you should do a price comparison
I think, but am not sure, that if you went directly to circuitcity.com, you would find the same deals as if you went through Quixtar and used the partner store. Most partner stores are just direct mirror stores, and from Quixtar, you would the exact same pages as if you went directly. Therefore, there would be no difference in price for the customer. Of course, if you are an IBO, you would get PV/BV and get a small rebate/bonus check, but the PV/BV is usually very small on partner stores.
Now, Quixtar and partner stores might set up deals whereas there are Quixtar only prices and pages. Stores will often do this with other partners, and usually I can get deals either from e-mail sign-ups, or sometimes through Yahoo shopping. Still, since all it takes to partner up with Quixtar is create a mirror, I wouldn't be surprised that these are the same deals the partners are offering those who enter through Quixtar, meaning for the average customer, he can get the same deal from the partner store, minus the pv/bv.
DMM,
I can see where you are coming from with your thoughts.
The partner stores are just mirror sites, and yes they offer the same prices as if you went there directly. We won't include deals they might give to IBO's because it is true that they might give special email deals and stuff like that to non-IBO's.
So why would I say that Members and IBO's get a better deal?
Well, IBO's get the same price, same product, same service, but at the end of the month, they get a check back based on their shopping. So you get a better deal going through Quixtar than going there directly.
The same goes for members, because they get Q-Credits which they can redeem for more merchandise. So they also get a better deal.
If I were to take a critics side in this debate, I would throw in the fact that an individual could sign up for an affiliate program which would include many of these partner stores as well.
But if you take a look at the percentages that Quixtar has worked out for IBO's, they are much higher than an individual would get from an affiliate program. I have actually done research on this and shopping through Quixtar gives a better deal.
You are right that the income generated from partner stores is not that much, but even if you just got a $5 check back, wouldn't that be better than no check?
Some of the partner stores are very profitable, like Kidzap and XSgear just to name a couple. And MCI is giving a $75 gift incentive album to anyone who signs up with the service.
So overall, the partner store deals are better through Quixtar than going directly.
Chris:
"You do not know what Dexter's profit margins are like, so you are just assuming."
I have a copy of the profit margins derived from Dex's BSM business because I have been a part of it.
"Many organizations have "hotel meetings" in different cities across the US and some of those meetings don't make enough to pay for the rooms and fees, and some make more than enough."
You need between 60 and 100 people to break even on a hotel meeting (depending on the hotel). After that, it's sheer gravy for the most part. (Aside from a half decent portable sound system, screen and laptop) House meetings are the norm for numbers less than that, and there is sometimes an admission fee for those meetings too.
"Then on top of that, how do you even know how much a Diamond chooses to pay himself from his BSM company? They may choose to reinvest their profits into developing better tools, and throwing bigger events with larger guest speakers"
I don't know how all diamonds pay themselves but I do know how some do, to answer your question. This is why there is so much feuding amongst the big pins....they are manouevering to make that dollar because of the real money there. They will even stab each other in the back for it. I've seen it too many times...I, too, have been a victim of this greed.
Chris, personally, I don't really care how much you make....it's just that when you speak like an authority on things, you might be believed more if people knew roughly where you were in the chain. That is why people listen or read about Bo's story.
Would you share your line of affiliation within Internet? Would you be willing to share the state you do business in. How many legs are you paying bonus checks to? This may not tell many a lot, but it it's just enough to tell me whether or not you are an expert of the theory side or if you actually walk the walk for a practical side.
Chris, you said:
"But if you take a look at the percentages that Quixtar has worked out for IBO's, they are much higher than an individual would get from an affiliate program. I have actually done research on this and shopping through Quixtar gives a better deal."
All right! since you've already done the research, can you tell me where a Q-IBO gets a better deal than the average Joe because its a partner store?
Eg. at Best Buy you get 5% off on one program, but Q-IBO's get 8% off because they are with Quixtar. Is that what you meant?
This is the kind of thing I'm interested in, because I cannot conceive why someone would think they have it made by being in Quixtar. This would at least afford evidence that there is a reason.
Truthseeker,
> I have a copy of the profit margins derived from Dex's BSM business because I have been a part of it.
It has been said that Dexter actually turned down his portion of the tool profits years ago. Secondly, you probably saw material that showed how the tool income was divided to Platinums and above. This would show what percentage the Diamond would make, and that gives you a pretty fair idea, although every organization runs this a little different.
The critics love to point out how much expense an IBO has, and how looking at profits without looking at expenses wouldn't give an accurate figure. They would be hypocritical if they didn't do the same thing when looking at the BSM system for the big pins.
> You need between 60 and 100 people to break even on a hotel meeting (depending on the hotel). After that, it's sheer gravy for the most part.
That sounds pretty accurate. So you can see how the Diamonds company can easily be losing money in the beginning to set up new hotel meetings. The upfront investments can be in the thousands. A decent projector ($thousands), a laptop ($thousand?), a sound system ($hundreds?), and the cost of the room ($hundreds).
Then when they get one meeting profitable, they usually are just getting another meeting off the ground. The good thing is that they can charge a small attendance fee to IBO's ($5?), that can help offset some of these expenses for the Diamonds company.
On top of that, most of the critics on here always talk about needing to replace groups and IBO's quitting all the time. Using their own logic, you could see how the numbers at hotel meetings might not always grow, and sometimes they can even shrink.
> it's just that when you speak like an authority on things, you might be believed more if people knew roughly where you were in the chain.
The critics on this blog and others also speak with authority, yet release little or no information about themselves. Even you my friend use an alias and fake email address for your posts. You make no effort to build your credibility, yet you speak loudly of your opinions on these posts.
The critics will just use whatever information I give them in a negative way. You and I know this. That is why I keep a certain level of confidentiality when posting. Readers can either believe me or not. I am just a guest that comments on this blog. The real person they are reading is QBlog, so his credibility is more important.
I don't mind you asking, but I hope you can logically see why I have kept things confidential. In the post QBlog wrote about what kind of experience would a critic need to have for an IBO to listen to them, I saw the critics attack an IBO that wanted a credibility level of a critic of at least Platinum and above. I would hope that they would follow their own advice.
I am just an IBO, maybe 1000, Platinum, Emerald, or Diamond. I think the debating actually is better without people judging me on the size of my group, pin level and income.
I hope you can respect that.
Rocket wrote: "can you tell me where a Q-IBO gets a better deal than the average Joe because its a partner store?"
This would take a book to write in full. Maybe this is even worthy of its own post in the future. If I were a negative critic of the business I would definitely post about it.
Although this is long, I will try to provide a balanced analysis using CircuitCity.com (CC) as the Case Study...
Point 1: IBO's can receive overrides on the volume from other CC affiliate advertisers (IBO's on their team), but the average joe does not have the option to make overrides on other affiliates.
Point 2: CC has a minimum you need to meet before you can get a check. Similar to Q. The average joe has a harder time reaching the minimum for each affiliate program, but Q's minimum can be reached much easier using a much wider variety of products.
Let me explain. If the average joe bought a laptop from CC for $2000, there check would be $20. The minimum before CC will send them the check is $25 so they would not get paid for that purchase.
If average Joe was an IBO, and he bought the $2000 laptop, he would meet the 100pv minimum and earn up to $28 on the purchase, not even including overrides on the volume from other IBO's.
But the bottom line of this point is that it is easier for the IBO to reach the minimum to receive a check, than for the average joe.
Point 3: The Q site has organized partner stores better than the average joe can. By registering as an IBO you have access to a site that has all the links neatly organized by category for you to click on to begin shopping.
The average joe would need to sign up for the affiliate programs and build a website with all the links using their code, and then they would have their own portal. You would have to agree that the Q portal is much easier for the average joe than them building their own website.
Point 4: The average joe cannot always get approved for affiliate programs. If you have tried yourself, you will see that only some affiliate programs will accept you to their affiliate program. Usually you need to build your site in advance and it needs to meet their quality standards which are sometimes very high.
If you don't believe me, then go sign up for an affiliate program like CJ.com or LinkShare.com and apply for 20-30 affiliate programs and just see how many decline you.
IBO's are all automatically approved to earn commissions on all of the Q partner stores.
----
OK, with those points being made, I will also mention a few downsides to make you critics happy.
Downside 1: The average joe can check up on their affiliate volume on a day to day basis, but the IBO cannot. Of course this would only be important if both were expecting volume other than their own purchases. IBO's can only see their partner store volume the month following their purchase.
I have emailed Q about this and they said they are looking into ways to set this up in the future. This is a pet peeve of mine.
Downside 2: The average joe can sometimes get paid the month following the month that they made their purchase, but the IBO gets the volume the month after, and then gets their check the 15th of the month after that. So technically average joe could get paid 2 weeks earlier.
Downside 3: The average joe could potentially partner with more affiliates than the IBO can. The IBO has the selection that is available on the Q site, but the average joe can potentially have thousands of affiliates.
These are kind of unfair downsides though because technically the IBO can use the Q affiliates and expand their partner stores by building their own site and signing up for them as well.
Downside 4: The IBO needs to pay roughly $40 to join the Q partner store program, but the average joe can join his for free. This investment is very small for what they get, but should be considered in the big picture, and I thought was worth mentioning in the downsides. There can be some potential costs involved for the average joe though, (hosting, domain name, etc.)
Remember though, the Q fee also gives you access to overrides when you set up other people with their own affiliate program.
--
After researching this topic, I have easily come to the conclusion that the Q opportunity is a better deal when it comes to partner stores.
On the other hand, if the average joe was above average when it came to the web, and had the ability to add these affiliate programs to a high traffic site, then he could potentially earn a good income.
I actually encourage people who choose not to build the Q business to instead learn about affiliate programs like google adsense where they can make a significant on-going income.
Did you read the article in the latest issue of Business 2.0 about the 19 year old kid making $5k per month working 2-3hours per day?
I don't think everyone can do that, but if you think you can, then go for it. Especially bloggers!
Chris:
I respect your answers, and I agree with you on a lot. I disagree with a lot as well. I know you've mentioned this before...I would hope that more upper level pins spent a greater deal of time focusing on fiscal responsibility of the new IBO as opposed to having someone dive into the tool system and lose a lot of money.
The challenge with this business is that anyone can get in, and because of that, the many who do get in have no idea of how to run a business..they are vulnerable. They deserve to be walked through the process and cared for a bit more than being pushed at the expense of the person making the money off of the system.
If everyone was encouraged to make some profits and then invest a percentage of that on tools, I would feel a lot better about what is going on in the world of the LOS's
Truthseeker,
Your last response have given me more respect for you as a critic. Not because you agree with me, but because you are looking at this from a common sense angle which is more neutral and I like that view more.
I agree with you, so how do we solve this?
I start new IBO's up on the tool system because your are right that they don't know how to build their business, and so they need training. The first 2 months of standing order tapes train them on the basics of the business. Every new IBO gets started that way.
We could easily charge the new IBO for these materials their first week, but we don't want them to build up too much debt without revenues coming in.
So we extend the cost of these initial training packs over the course of a couple of months, making it easier for the new IBO. After they get the initial training, then they get put on the general standing order like everyone else.
I also promote for them to attend the upcoming seminar. The ticket will cost them $20 and it may require some travel, but this will show them the bigger picture and will provide motivation, education, inspiration and training, as well as a chance to hear from successful IBO's to help them gain belief, which is the most important thing for the newest IBO.
We keep costs low by having the sponsor provide initial materials to leave with prospects after they have seen the business plan, and we hold meetings in free locations like homes, coffee shops and so on.
All of this is explained as optional, and at any time we offer to refund any BSM tools/tickets that they have purchased. I feel that this is very fair, and without this initial training it makes it very difficult to teach the new IBO how to build the business.
Some people may also choose to loan some of their own material to new IBO's that do not have any money to invest upfront into their own material. But honestly, if someone doesn't have a couple hundred dollars per month to invest in a business, they are not doing that well financially, and seriously need to consider this business more than ever.
If an individual is serious about the effort they are willing to put in, then they can use a CC for the start up costs or even a bank loand or equity loan. These are normal solutions for people who need money to start up their own business. Maybe even a loan from family.
I would advise that if someone did this, that they keep tight financial statements and make sure they do enough activity to warrant the loan they will need to pay off.
So I hope that you can see that from my perspective my organization teaches what you are recommending that los's do. Maybe every organization doesn't do it the exact way that we do, but the principles are still the same.
What are your thoughts from this comment?
Chris,
1. Upline platinums have an obligation to provide training without or without tools. This is free training that should be provided based on the Business Compendium
2. The business is very simple. It must be in order to duplicate it. How much training does one actually need?
3. Not enough training goes into retail sales.
4. The big Q tried a resolution to deal with this issue by selling motivational/instructional tapes years ago. Why did the LOS's resist this idea so aggressively?
Chris, I've had the benefit of attending many leadership planning meetings, and whenever I've made a suggestion that would adversely affect the tool or seminar business, I've been shunned.
I'm not too keen on the prices of the products, but I could live with them knowing I have tax advantages of owning my own home based business. The challenge I have is that too many people are losing money because they are not getting the training they really need and they are spending money on tools that truly are not helping enough people. Otherwise, this business would see a huge explosion of growth, overall.
There was a 6% growth in North American sales this past year. I would attribute this to great new products, greater acceptance of ditto, an increase in prices and the big PV adjustment. It is not from overall growth of the business. This is worrysome.
I would go as far as saying that without all that I mentioned above, we would actually see a decrease in sales from the last year. This would not fair well for the company.
Truthseeker wrote:
1. Upline platinums have an obligation to provide training without or without tools. This is free training that should be provided based on the Business Compendium
> I agree. I do not know of one that does not provide training, mentorship and assistance. No problems here.
2. The business is very simple. It must be in order to duplicate it. How much training does one actually need?
> One does need training. I have seen people try it without training and it is actually pretty funny. The BSM training is effective and low cost. The mentorship is effective and free. The combination of the 2 I feel is essential in the success of building and educated, profitable community of IBO's.
3. Not enough training goes into retail sales.
> I disagree. I have received tremendous retail sales training. Every seminar has a portion dedicated to it. We have major events where the total focus is on selling Quixtar exclusive products.
On top of that, every Platinum organizes smaller training meetings that are free for new IBO's to get educated on the coreline products to help them increase sales.
Every business plan presentation has a "product commercial" where a good portion of time is spent talking about the products. So when prospect are not interested in becoming business owners, they often become members.
4. The big Q tried a resolution to deal with this issue by selling motivational/instructional tapes years ago. Why did the LOS's resist this idea so aggressively?
> I was not part of that resolution. I do not have all the facts for this specific debate. I can think of many reasons why Q should not get involved though, and I think that the current BSM system is pretty good, with room for improvement.
I too have attended many leadership planning meetings and any time I had a suggestion it was well received. I have had the opposite experience as you, and unfortunately, the critics will not accept the fact that my organization must be different than the organization you were involved in.
> "too many people are losing money because they are not getting the training they really need"
So what training do you feel they need that they are not getting. I am an IBO that is open to hearing suggestions from critics that I can apply in my day to day business. If you have some suggestions that I am not currently implementing, then I would be interested in hearing them.
Your last point about being worried about Q, I am glad that you take such an interest in a company that you stand to gain nothing from. I have a different outlook for the company, and I think that we will see an overall growth over the next several years. I think it would be normal if we had a month where we didn't grow, just as many successful companies do, but I see no sign that this will happen anytime soon.
I feel bad for "Mike". This guy can't seem to see a scam if it were to bite him on the arse. On top of that, his flamboyant fashion choices are going to be critiqued by his upline AmQuix peers.
Dark suit, white shirt, red tie...repeat...
Talk about a waste of hundreds of dollars! That sister could be out buying pumps and handbags with that cash!
Chris,
Here's a challenge for you....
1) Ask 10 people in your business what they do for a living.....they will stutter and struggle throughout, not able to give their speal without being nervous.
2) Ask the same 10 people "is this Amway or Quixtar?" and many of the same people will stuggle.
These are the basics that are not even paracticed very much.
How many people know how to contact on the phone...based on my experience, I was amazed at how many people could not book a proper appointment on the phone.
Very little training in these basics..or better yet, learning hands on, rather that hearing generalizations on stage.
I do have a vested interest in Q, just to let you in on it. Not from an IBO standpoint however. I want them to do well.
From my understanding, the LOS's resisted Q taking over the tools business because it would crush their incomes in a big way. Nothing has changed....Just imagine this happening, and all of the top leaders dropping out? Some have already done so. Would smaller pins stick around knowing the fruit on the tree was not that great? Would the big Q collapse?
Truthseeker wrote: "Here's a challenge for you....
1) Ask 10 people in your business what they do for a living.....they will stutter and struggle throughout, not able to give their speal without being nervous.
> Wrong. This is the exact reason why IBO's say that "my group is not like that". Our BSM training system teaches IBO's to have confidence in answering this question.
This is where most IBO's go wrong. This is the question they will hear the most, and yet they never have an answer on the tip of their tongue.
There are infinite answers, but the IBO is not prepared which is lame because they are going to get asked this question all the time. So our group does very well with this question and we don't have that stutter problem.
Yet another reason that they system is helpful to IBO's and why they should plug into it..
2) Ask the same 10 people "is this Amway or Quixtar?" and many of the same people will stuggle.
> Wrong again. The only reason this would be tough is if they weren't taught how to handle that question. Again, this is a question that comes up alot, so IBO's should have an answer, and if an IBO is reading this and doesn't have an answer on the tip of their tongue, then get one right away and use it.
It is not the answer that is the issue, it is the lack of answer. When you don't respond to these questions well, the prospect gets nervous about trusting you as a business partner. They usually don't mind the relationship, as long as you explain it to them.
Our BSM system teaches IBO's how to contact on the phone. In fact just last week we had an entire training even to help IBO's sharpen their in-person and over-the-phone contacting skills. At these trainings we break out into groups and one on ones and practice on the spot. Just $5 per person. Very worth it.
Then we also teach to lead the newest people by example, so they can learn to build the business by seeing somebody do it live, and then sharpening their skills at our trainings and events.
If this didn't happen for you, then it just goes to show how much the opportunity is getting better and how not all LOS's should be treated the same.
I assumed that many LOS's were teaching similar things, at least in the Yager organization because that is where we got most of this stuff from. Like PEC's and Contacting Workshops and so on.
"Dave, what do you do for a living?"
I'm a handyman.
"Is this Amway or Quixtar?"
That question would never be asked.
The reason is..on the first question. That's a casual question and is not an opportunity to immediately "prospect" someone and asking them "are they making all the money they want. And trying to set up an appt. to "spin circles" and sell tapes.
The reason on the second question, is after I have developed a relationship with a person, possibly over months at a time, or after they have read something I wrote on the internet, or visited my house, then eventually they are going to know I do some other stuff as well as home renovation..AND IF..and only if they ask me about Quixtar or show some interest, would a conversation about Quixtar ever happen...They come to me, they get full disclosure or already have figured it out.
David,
I gotta admire your willingness to just "let the business happen" without being pro-active.
I, on the other hand, am pro-active in my business. I don't pounce on people either, and I have never been taught to do that in my entire time building the business.
I have conversations with people all the time, and if something comes up where I think they might qualify for my business, then I will either get back in touch with them, or ask some qualifying questions there. But never pounce. That is generally good advice.
For instance, I like cars, and at a get together the other day I met someone with similar interests and we had a great conversation. Of course he asked me what I did for a living and I told them, and then asked what he did for a living.
From what he told me, it was obvious that they were in the looking zone, and I asked him if he ever looks at other ways of making money outside of X. He said of course, and we decided to get coffee and talk business the following day.
So over coffee we chatted more, and I found out what goals he had and showed him my business plan, and registered him as a partner. We have a seminar coming up next week and he will have a few people with him for the event.
This is an example of why I don't just sit back until people ask me about my business. He might never have asked, and now he is thankful that I asked him the questions I did.
He is plugged into the system and should be profitable by month 2 at this rate.
Is the way that I did this so bad? I don't jump out in the middle of a BBQ with a whiteboard like some critics think. And I don't jump out from behind bushes at the mall. In fact, our group doesn't even teach to go out "contacting".
We teach to simply do the things you are normally going to do, and add dreambuilding when you have free time, to go check out things that motivate you. Along the way just talk with people, and learn what questions to say, and people will qualify themselves for your business.
Like I said, I do have respect for you and the way you choose to find your partners, but thought that I should offer my $0.02 for how I find mine.
I love Q, I love the opportunity, I dislike the extreme right wing, neocon, homophobic evangelists who think everybody should be the same way. We definitely need separation of business and political, religious beliefs.
I for one want to make sure Republicans, Democrats, Green Peace, Nader and all kind of people feel comfortable in my group.
TxsHldem
just make sure you go all-in on 4th street :)
I never have to ask "qualifying questions"
Its my job to answer questions they may have.
When you concentrate on building the "Chris" brand, rather than the Quixtar or Yager brand, you'll find that people are attracted to you FIRST, and your business is just "gravy" because they want to be involved with you..not some plan on a napkin....BTW, I haven't "spun a circle" in two years nor attended a single hotel meeting.
Quixtar has this neat website and something called a downloadable PDF of a little thing called a SA4400..it's really cool...all the facts and figures and full disclosure, it takes about 5 minutes to read through it.
David,
Where are you trying to go with this?
Is your style of building the business better than mine?
Is your way right and my way wrong?
--
I don't draw circles. Everybody uses the SA4400 to show the plan. I don't show the plan on a napkin. People are attracted to the "Chris" brand and the "Quixtar" brand. I do attend hotel meetings. I do ask "qualifying questions". I do answer questions they may have.
Please explain where you are trying to go with this. Is one way better than the other? How would we decide which way was better?
What do you think about QBlog's post on "Show me the money".
Are you going to show everyone your screenshot so that they can evaluate your success in the business and judge your credibility on it?
Are you going to tell this blog how many IBO's you have in your group, how long you have been in and what your last bonus check was?
I don't need to know this information, but since you don't back up the other IBO's (me), on this topic, I assume that you support it. What are your thoughts?
Answer here or there.
"David,
Where are you trying to go with this?
Is your style of building the business better than mine?
Is your way right and my way wrong?
--"
Chris, I'm not going anywhere in particular, just giving you a chance to hear my opinions, I don't post that frequently in the QBlog Forum anymore, and ever since The Gay Email entry , I noticed a slew of comments on every entry..it's almost like The QBlog Forum has spilled into the Comments section.
I would also never dare say MY system is better than another system, or downgrade another IBO unless said IBO wronged me personally outside the business.
But since you haven't seen me on the forum, although I'm STILL watching a lot of threads...including the never ending Camac story; I thought I'd at least share a small example of what some other IBOs are doing outside the "systems".
"I don't draw circles. Everybody uses the SA4400 to show the plan. I don't show the plan on a napkin. People are attracted to the "Chris" brand and the "Quixtar" brand. I do attend hotel meetings. I do ask "qualifying questions". I do answer questions they may have."
When I was involved in the system, the SA4400 was "thrown in" at the end of "The Plan" as an afterthought; a way of saying, "oh yeah and here's the legal thing we are supposed to hand out"
I believe you, when you say you don't draw circles however, because when I left the Florence system, they were using "houses" in a STP Presentation Book. $80 bucks for that was the price I believe.
"Please explain where you are trying to go with this. Is one way better than the other? How would we decide which way was better?"
Better is entirely subjective. I, and those in my group, prefer a non tools system however. And a unwavering adherance to The Right To Differ.
"What do you think about QBlog's post on "Show me the money".
Are you going to show everyone your screenshot so that they can evaluate your success in the business and judge your credibility on it?
Are you going to tell this blog how many IBO's you have in your group, how long you have been in and what your last bonus check was?
I don't need to know this information, but since you don't back up the other IBO's (me), on this topic, I assume that you support it. What are your thoughts?
Answer here or there."
Posted by: Chris at October 29, 2004 07:31 PM
Me and QBlog differ on the subject of Schedule Cs and "proving my worth", however I have never made any claims to my income, my pin level, nor my "status and credibility" in this Forum or any other.
I would not "prove my income" in any business I owned...no client ever asked me to show my profits before I wrote or directed a video, however they did like to hear from satisfied clients. In my system in Quixtar, an interested person could spend weeks observing our system and asking questions of the entire group including (gasp) crossline; to determine if we are a proper "fit" for themselves.
I have listed at one time in the Qblog Forum the number of IBOs on our system, but for the most part, I consider myself just a "lowly peon" who likes to interject opinion from time to time...anybody can take me at face value or not at all.
I don't have an agenda at the Quixtar Blog, nor the QBlog Forum, AND I'm not implying you do, just making that clear.
:D
For the sake of keeping up with further questions, as these comments don't notify me when a response has been posted, you can talk to me anytime via email or IM or my Blog.
Sincerely,
Dave
QBlog,
That has got to be the fakest email anyone has ever sent into you. If he actually joked about being openly gay and becoming a Diamond, then his upline really hopes he was joking. I think that email is simply a ploy at a response after Qrush did all his gay-bashing.
But, for the sake of possibilities, if "Mike" is telling the truth, and if he is still around, what LOS is he joining? Definately not a Yager line...Dexter would have a fit if someone "up and coming" in his line was gay. He has spoken against homosexuality at functions and on tapes.
Personally, I would love to see "Mike" succeed in Quixtar. Just because he'd have to do it without being on the BSM speaking circuit. Those other LOS' would NEVER have him speak at functions.
If he is in the Michigan area, I hope he is in TOD...that would just burn Orrin's "family values" stigma.
Mike, if you are in Michigan, and if or when Michigan accepts same-sex marriages, I would be happy to officiate at your wedding. I am an ordained minister with the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostic. That along with a valid marriage license from the state, and I can legally marry two persons.
Make sure to invite your upline.
Posted by: Roger, Husband of a TOD Brainwashee | October 25, 2004 12:44 PM