Monday Reader Mail: 15

I believe that PV/BV was instituted around 1974 to account for inflation. It would make sense then to have PV remain the same when prices go up. Earn the bracket in '1974 dollars but get paid in 2004 dollars on the BV'.

That was the theory anyway. I would think it would be easy to mess with the formula a little to increase profits. Also, the mix of products is much different today than back then.

Posted by: Inheriter | October 4, 2004 11:38 AM

The theory behind PV/BV is that PV remains the same, while BV adjusts for inflation. Thus, PIN levels remains the same in the business year after year.

You should need to sell the same numbers of LOC or SA8 in 2004 as you did in 1994, as you did in 1984 to hit the platinum, or direct PIN level.

Having said that, I noticed, during my time in the business, price adjustments on all of the code products semi-annually. Just about all of the 'core' products, across the board, would increase a few cents every six months. And we'd have to buy the new price lists. I didn't see such increases at the local grocery store. Just another little thing about hte business that left a sour taste in my mouth

Posted by: BK | October 4, 2004 12:37 PM

I have always maintained that this would be a viable business opportunity that would have the potential to be everything that the diamonds say it is. Two things are in the way:

1. Ridiculously high prices, making the products, for the most part, not competitive

2. The AMO'S. I think that is self explanatory.

I was given a price list last week by an IBO, who also thought the prices were too high.

If it truly is a more efficient way of doing business, then the prices would be lower.

Obviously its not.

Posted by: Rocket | October 4, 2004 1:04 PM

I can't prove this because I don't have the material from years past, but IIRC, I also think that the bonus structure has been reduced in the past several years. I think there were bigger bonuses for reaching Platinum (Direct) in Amway than in Quixtar.

Ambivalent

Posted by: Ambivalent | October 4, 2004 3:06 PM

I posted about this last year on my blog when I got my "new" choices catalog. I noticed then the same thing, higher price and same PV/BV

Posted by: nsaibo | October 5, 2004 1:15 AM

While most critics on here complain about prices, I spend my free time when I can out showing this opportunity to people, and just today I was able to register yet another member.

Because of some posts on here about Quixtar pricing, I asked her what she thought about the prices, and she said that they looked great and was happy to get products delivered to her home. I showed her the "Why Switch" brochure and set her up on ditto delivery for the "Perfect Pack for Health".

The reason I post this is because the Quixtar prices are competitive with most stores, unless you are comparing them to wholesale buying clubs. This lady did most of her shopping at Longs Drugstore, Rite Aid and Albertsons.

Also, the BV is what IBO's get paid from, and so IBO's get a raise when BV is increased. There were price increases, but IBO's were told that this was going to happen in advance, and I didn't notice any significant change.

Basically to reach the 25% level, an IBO has to generate 5% more pv throughout their organization. The ratio for pv/bv is now about 2.8 when it was about 2.4 before. This is awesome news!

BTW: Nice joke about the headache QBlog, but we know you better than that, and to get confused it would take a lot more than something as easy to understand as this post :)

Posted by: Chris | October 5, 2004 4:18 AM

Chris,
I've really been debating the whole issue of whether to remain with the big Q any longer. Here's my observations:

a) Horrible upline diamond leader who cannot motivate, nor can he attract a following, meaning more people are getting out than are getting in....hardly conducive to a growth environment, and everyone can see it.

b) Losing approximately 4000-5000 year on tools and other expenses, before we stopped with the tapes and books, etc.

c) The products are too expensive. Example...we are buying tastier protein bars from costco than we were, buying from our business (not that they are not satifying) for half the price. When we added it up, we were saving $3/day x 30 = $90/month.....which was over $1000/year, not including delivery.....and that was just on the bars. Other product savings have helped us save big in other categories such as vitamins (again, we know vitamins...Double X is a great brand, but there are some good brands out there for much cheaper)
We estimate a savings of about $2000.

So, when we add it all up, we are saving about $7000 plus our time (gross dollars by the way)
This would mean that I'd have to pull in over $10 000 to make this a worthwile business venture to my family and I.

With the implementation of a stacking method of building our business, by our leaders, I quickly realized, from crunching the numbers that I'd have to develop 2 very large legs to develop some semblance of an income. Too much effort, in my opinion, to develop this business, for the net return.

Would it be any different with a different upline? Maybe, but look at the chaos happening right now amongst some of the biggest pins in the business. These were supposed leaders....The "best" have become some of the most corrupt. This raises a lot of flags in my opinion.

What about the tools? Even you admitted that they could be improved. You also mentioned audiofile downloading...the books, for the most part are horrible. How many books by Fuhrman and Hedges can a guy read in a lifetime.
It seems to me that quality is compromized for the sake of profit.
As for the products, yes there are some great tax advantages to being in the business, but only if someone is making money. With stacking in only a couple good legs, this wouldn't happen for a while, especially with the crap on the internet to contend with.

I think people really need to think hard about this, before venturing into such a business. I, like you, could care less about the horrible stats for success....If there's a will, there's a way, but is it worth it?

In my opinion....no.

Posted by: John | October 5, 2004 10:40 AM

Chris and John:

2 other interesting points:

1) Now customers can purchase on the web without going through an IBO

2) One of the Van Andel's is chair of a company that sells products that competes with the big Q (Twinlab through a company called Ideasphere, which is run by Nicholson, former company bigwig, and Van Andel)

This spells very bad news to me, from a credibility/loyalty standpoint.

Very dissapointing!

Posted by: Evan | October 5, 2004 6:07 PM

Chris, I'm glad you're able to find people who are all for this. Most can't because a lot of people have the mentality that ditto delivery is not really worth it.

Ditto delivery is a neat concept, but a great number of people would prefer to not pay the higher price for it.

Plus, morally solid uplines are a bit of a holy grail these days. Again, if Quixtar is better than Amway and Ditto delivery is so hot, when is the first QUIXTAR diamond going to show him/herself? I'm talking about someone who was never in Amway.

The prices are a huge factor, and it is silly to try to blow them off as a non factor, Chris. If the prices were even close to being competitive TO THE PEOPLE WHO WOULD BUY THEM at a first glance, you would have even more success than you are having now.

I believe that it makes you look bad when you have to spend time explaining why the prices are higher, and people hearing things like that just get the greebles when they are being pitched a load of bunk.

Yes, they are too expensive.period.

Posted by: Rocket | October 5, 2004 9:14 PM

I am not an IBO....yet. I have researched, spoke with Attnys, CPA's and influencial busienss owners. Then there is the converstation with the other 95% of the population that just doesnt get it. Naming this site as part of that 95% employee base thinking! Quixtar is legal and works, you think Circuit City's legal department would approve such a partnership if it was wrong and Illegal....think about it! Check the BBB and the FTC on the system for some real research...not this site.

Do you understand to start up a Jimmy Johns, it will cost you up to $100,000 the first year and will take up to 3 years to see any good return. Do you know to open a McDonalds, it will cost you a million, two years of schooling, one year of building then two years till any return on money.

The point is that most of you should not be involved with this business or any for that matter because you all want to be paid now. I want to work now and get paid later....you have to put time and effort into ANY buisness to achieve success. This buisness is for those wanting to build a buisness....not a career. Buisnesses take money, time and effort.

To comment on the tape and book expense work up, the tapes only cost $35 a month...if you are spending $7,000 a year on tapes then you are doing something wrong.

If you dont like something then dont do it at all. If you dont like working for a system then why are you in a job. You think this is a scam...come on people. Getting up everyday, driving on average 30 minutes to sit at a desk in a room filled with a hundred others that you dislike. All this hard work to make millions for the CEO, who is at the top. And guess what, no one in the company can make more then him without the approval of the board. I think you should revisit the scam. You are living a nightmare day in and day out.

For all those visiting this site for feed back on a particular buisness....here is some solid advice. Try everything for yourself, give it all you got and treat it like a buisness and not a job. If you set some solid goals and never give up, you will succeed!

Sincerely -
A successful self-employed Investor at age 27 who plans to make the very best of every opportunity.

Posted by: Michael | October 10, 2004 1:42 AM

Michael,

Here's the challenge:

You sound like you know too much to not be an IBO. Too much of the lingo for a non-IBO.

Secondly, I said I would save 7000 from products and tools. I never said I spent 7000 on tools. You don't listen well. A necessary quality to do well in business.

You are knocking jobs....not good...many carrying jobs enjoy what they do...you are far too opinionated about this.

I don't think this is a scam...I think it is a poor business choice.

Questions for you:

Are you happy with the various prices from Q?
Being an investor, could you not find better uses for 7000? There are other options, you know.

Have you compared the tool system to other self-help programs?

Posted by: Evan | October 10, 2004 7:59 AM

Evan -

In response to the tapes and expenses, I believe the numbers you are displaying are what I would like to call a ghost expense. The numbers still don’t add up and I know you are adding in everything, including the cost of your time, into your final numbers. Let’s break it down, from the research I have and the monthly cost for my living, I currently spend $250 on misc. items that I would purchase at Sam's Club. That would make it $3000 in product. Now add CE which I found to be tapes and seminars only, which is about $35 for tapes and one seminar a month is $5. We are now at $3,480 for the year. Add in some hedge expense and registration fees I am coming up with about $4,500 a year. This is my Ghost expense, right? Now, minus my actual living expense cost of product I currently purchase of $3,000. That would make a final net/net cost of doing business at $1,500. So what you are saying is you would rather spend the $3,000 at Costco for the year with no chance of any return. If I was already putting out $3,000 and I added $1,500 to it and could get a return of, let’s say, $5,000. That means I received free product all year, which I would have spent anyway, and made $500.

See, I am not an IBO yet, but I was taught growing up to run companies as my family before me. See you still look at the wrong side of the factor, that is way you still shop at Costco.

For me to build a business anywhere would take a lot of money and time. But with the chance with Quixtar I could put in sometime, help others out, meet new people, get some free product and have a 33.33% return on my $1,500. So my answer to finding something else to do with my money would be "no"...this is pretty good.

But, once again I run Real Estate on my own account so this would just add no my overall wealth....now do you understand my point of view.

Also, I am not knocking all jobs. I understand that some individuals love what they do. But, to have people stand there and say this doesn’t work, it’s a scam, your wasting money is all poor due diligence on their part. Especially from getting your only research from sites like this one. If you knock this opportunity then you should review your current situation. Rat race, social security, job security....see that all sounds more risky then any opportunity in business development, naming Quixtar as one of them.

Sincerely -

Michael

Posted by: Michael | October 10, 2004 2:12 PM

Michael,

My apologies. You are not in the business yet. I have been for quite a while. Let's get down to tool expenses: (I would love someone else to confirm these expenses as I think these are very accurate)

1) Tapes of the month - 4 x $10 = $40
2) Book of month - $25
3) Voicemail: $35/month
4) Weekly opens: $5 x 4weeks x 2 (couple) = $40
5) Monthly Seminar: $25 x 2= $50
6) Gas costs: $50/month minimum
7) Website subscription: $20/month
Total = $260 x 12 months = $3120

Now lets add in major rallies: 3 per year

$130 x 2 (couple) + $10 x 2 (couple) for Sunday leadership = $280 x 3 events = $840 (Lets subtract the 3 minor events I calculated earlier that these took the place of) = $690

Lets add hotel costs.... 2nights x 3 events = 6 nights x $100/night (low budget) = $600

Lets add travel expenses: These events are at a distance for me: $100 (both ways) x 3 events = $300

Let's add food expenses for these events:
$50/per day x 3 days of travel and event days x 3 events = $450

Let's add miscellaneous business building expenses:
Eg. First night CD's, brochures: $50/month
= $600/year

Let's add gas expenses: $50/week showing the plan 4 nights per week = $200 x 12 months = $2400/year

Okay..to prove a point, I went through all of these.
Grand total: $8160/year....not including car maintenance, miscellaneous food expenses, parking, renewal fees, etc.

Savings from Costco compared to the big Q products: (No taxes calculated)

Energy bars (Costco): $1.33 each x 30 (almost 1 daily) x 2 people = 79.80 x 12 months = $957.60

XS bar: $3.00 each x 30 x 2 people = $180 x 12 months = $2160

Protein bars (Costco): $1.67 (30g protein) x 30 x 2 people = $100.20 x 12 months = $1202.40

Trim Adv. : $3.00 (22 g protein) x 30 x 2 people = 180 x 12 months = $2160

(Costco bars taste great...better than Q's good tasting bars)

Savings per year: $2160...
But wait...shipping of $22.50/month = $270/ year added cost = $2430 total cost

(And this is just for 2 products...do we even look at other product costs? The bars were the competitive costs)

With added cost of products and business expenses, I'm up to $10 590 per year.....and I haven't even added up miscellaneous costs and other savings on products.

Michael, with the stacking technique being employed, do you know how much one makes with just 2 legs of business at a successful level? Not much....That is, if they even get there.
Look very closely add this business...do your homework....be totally honest.......

Then give it one year with all that you've got, fully immersed in everything. My prediction....you'll be in the hole by over $10 000. That's my challenge to you.
By the way, by succeeding in this challenge, you have a responsibility to help others acheive your success. We wouldn't want 100's of people (which, by the way, is roughly needed to go Platinum) to be suffering with the same expenses while you reach your goal.

Please bring these figures to your diamond or emerald....go through them in detail...hear what the person says....(Unless of course, you hear the old "Don't listen to the 95%ers")

By the way, this is coming from an entrepreneur...I'm not keen on a job, either...although, I like to treat people who work hard...teachers, doctors, managers, cashiers, mechanics, etc, with respect as opposed to putting them in the "95% loser" category

Posted by: Evan | October 10, 2004 7:29 PM

Evan -

I should hire you for cash flow analysis. I must admit that I am impressed; you are on top of the expense numbers. You have reached a level that I would respect in reviewing this business then just thinking you are another individual that received his information from web posted failures and fear of risk taking individuals.

I also believe that the expenses you listed are, not all, unnecessary business expense. Some of the numbers I have are different but the individual expense ideas are the same. However, would you agree that the majority of these expenses are a little too much? I might have a different view on motivation, the amount need to keep me going. I have built my business on Real Estate books that I have been referred to by other investors and the outlook of a simple goal sheet that has brought my out of my day job one year ago.

I want to review with you one more time on the expenses and what is really necessary for this business and how to cut cost on this business opportunity. I would understand the cost of the tapes. Four tapes a month for $35 dollars makes sense. They contain all the new level achievers and success stories to help motivate you to the next level. But I can find my own motivation books through used departments on Amazon......or the new partner store Barnes and Nobles (Thinking of points now, LOL). $25 for a book is above some college book costs. OK, now the voice mail......come on here. I have a cell phone bill at $200 a month since all my business is conducted on that phone. To add another $25 a month for just a voice mail service, I will have to pass on this. I can check the website and call my uplink for any upcoming information needed. Now for the seminars and so called rally function. Is there a need to attend every single function? Our business plan, with my investors that will become my first downlinks, believe that the seminars are great but our own private seminar meetings (Free) with business affiliates would be more powerful. But let’s say for your expense sheet to cut the rallies down to one a year and only two seminars a month, which is still a pretty good attendance.

You have already cut your expense down drastically. What if you played smart business sense with this idea and knew how to keep yourself motivated in other ways. Like your own family goal sheet, which has worked wonders for my business. Now minus again the money you still spend today at Costco, you should be around $1,500 to $2,500 on total expense in running this business.

I do understand on making it to the next level is a challenge, but aren't all business a challenge in starting. I would assume that like any business this is not an overnight adventure into millionaire land. Nor have I received that assumption from other IBOs, so it takes time. Let’s say 5 to 10 years to really make it. It is still worth the time and effort of building this business to make $2,000 a month compared to the overall yearly expense which 60% of it is money I already spend.

See, I still believe that you are overshadowing the overall opportunity just because a small cost difference in the product. Lets say you do spend a little more money for the product, but you work hard to make it to a profitable level. That product really becomes free....which is not what you are paying today. What if, you made your best effort and started making only $500 a month. Well, what would it matter if you spend $400 on product when you receive money back with the opportunity to make more profit? Then to say forget this, the product cost is too high. Now you spend $300 a month at Costco with no money coming in. Do you understand my take on this....it still works out in your favor.

Sincerely -

Michael

Posted by: Michael | October 11, 2004 8:41 AM

Michael,

If you have dipped into the archives to check this post out...great.
I like the fact that you are not purchasing everything your upline support team suggests. I never did. I purchased what I thought was valuable. I think the opportunity is a viable one. The community building is magnificent.
My personal opinion is that people need to think independently and incur expenses only relative to their income from the business. There is no need to carry losses from year to year.
If treated properly, this business can be a success from the get-go.
However, after reviewing everything, I'm saying that this is just not for me. I hope others evaluate it intelliegently and make a decision that best suits their needs.

Posted by: Evan | October 11, 2004 9:34 PM

Evan, a quick search for the word "loser" on this page will quickly show that you are the only one who refers to a supposed "95% loser" category.

I think what Michael is referring to is from the author Robert Kiyosaki who is recognized by most as a very intelligent business man with good business principles. Some can argue that and it is fine, but I think that the last line in your comments needed to be called upon.

As far as the rest of your last post, I appreciate you taking the time to work out what your business expenses were when you were building the business, and how you feel that an IBO will be losing a significant amount of money at the end of the year after expenses.

You asked for someone else to confirm these expenses because you thought they were pretty accurate so I thought I would add my comments to this post as well.

You have already covered the details on some expenses an IBO might have, and many organizations have different opportunities to invest in your education as an IBO and so the costs will be different with every group.

For instance, some teams do not have websites, some have a free team site, some charge a one time fee, some charge quarterly and some monthly.

Most IBO's live near the local seminar, so there are no significant travel costs, but there are also some that live at a distance and will invest more each month to travel to events. So again, the costs will vary.

I think that the inestment costs that you named below are far more than what the average IBO would pay, but for an IBO couple that is out seriously building the business, the investments you name become more likely. But the tool and seminar prices that you claim are much higher than I had ever heard of.

Internet Services Corporation sells weekly tapes at around $7 and books from $12-$15. Major functions usually run about $100, monthly seminars average around $20 and they promote the IBOCS voicemail system at around $25. Some organizations events might cost more, some might cost less, and they are all optional.

You also mention gas expenses twice. This was confusing to me. Then you claimed that were spending $12.50 in gas per night that you showed the plan. This does not seem reasonable at all. That would mean that all of your plans were out of town 4 nights a week for an entire year.

If an IBO truly showed the business plan 16 times per month and was fully committed to all the things that you mentioned, and was leading those IBO's to "opens" like you suggested, then they would have a very profitable business. I have not yet met someone with that comittment that was not doing very well with their business.

I have been told about this depth building technique that you refer to as "stacking". After reviewing this technique, it makes total sense and I think that more organizations should be implementing it.

It promotes more IBO retention, as well as more experience in IBO's when they get new people started, which has been lacking the past few years. It puts the focus more on going Emerald, which is in line with the direction of Quixtar's compensation plan towards rewarding depth and growth bonuses and not just width.

If an IBO put in the effort that you suggest, then they could easily build 3 of their "legs" down significantly deep, and if one does the math, this can be quite profitable. This so called "stacking" method just redirects the focus to making sure that legs are growing deeper and becoming more solid rather than all over the place and harder to manage.

If an IBO is not building down 3 legs, it is because they are not putting in the work that is suggested, and so their expenses will be much lower, and without the activity, they shouldn't expect to be profitable at all. That is common sense in the business world.

As far as your product comparisons with Quixtar prices and Costco prices, we have discussed this many times on different posts on this blog.

Costco does not sell the products that you are talking about online, so someone would have to have a Costco within a reasonable driving distance to be able to compare these prices. Costco was only in 36 states last time I checked, and they had around 315 stores. They are a great company but they do not have anywhere near the reach that Quixtar has for these products by selling them online.

As far as taste and quality goes, I actually think that the Trim Advantage and XS bars taste much better than the Costco bars, and there is more proof of quality with the bars on Quixtar than from Costco.

You claim that the Trim Advantage bars are $3 each compared to $1.67 for the Costco bars. This would mean that a box of 9 Trim Advantage bars would cost $27. Where did you get these figures? I am on the site right now and a box of 9 bars is only $17 so the cost of each bar is only $1.88 and that makes the bars very cost competitive.

Even the XS bars are only $2 each and I would challenge anyone to take a blind taste test against the costco bars and see which one people would like more and XS would definitely win that competition. Compare labels on these bars as well and you will see that Quixtar has a very competitive product in this category.

You also mention nothing about the fact that IBO's receive a check at the end of the month based on volume.

So If an IBO has their upline building depth in one of their legs using this method that you mentioned, then they will quickly end up at the 12% level, and will also quickly end up at the 25% level. This helps IBO's become more profitable, because on a box of protein bars they would earn back a "rebate" of $4.25 which would make the Quixtar bars cheaper than the Costco bars!

Posted by: Chris | October 11, 2004 10:23 PM

Hi Chris....
I appreciate your reply.

You said
"As far as taste and quality goes, I actually think that the Trim Advantage and XS bars taste much better than the Costco bars, and there is more proof of quality with the bars on Quixtar than from Costco."

Chris, the bars are macronutrients...there is no proof that these bars are better. In fact they are worse when you look at sheer numbers....22g for a trim adv. bar versus 30g for the costco brand I buy...Much more protein for your money.
Costco has a few brands...some don't taste as good...a few are better. Honestly, Quixtar has some good , cost competitive products...they are simply not the best though. Double X, maybe, but there is nothing to warrant that these bars are.

This would mean that a box of 9 Trim Advantage bars would cost $27. Where did you get these figures? I am on the site right now and a box of 9 bars is only $17 so the cost of each bar is only $1.88 and that makes the bars very cost competitive.

The price is all relative...I'm a Canadian IBO. This would make the prices bang on. Relatively speaking, the Costco bars would be cheaper as well, in the US.

As for tools, I used to be a part of Internet Services as far as tools are concerned. I know the prices...back in 1999, tools were $6 US.....now they are roughly $10 American. Back in 1999, I remember paying about 125 for a Free Enterprise Day event. Unless you live in St. Louis, Indianapolis, or Charlotte, or a few other locations, you are travelling.
Internet had an 8 tape system promoted to us...which would double what I suggested for tapes.
They also heavily promoted adpacks, which are hard to get back, increasing the expenses dramatically. They also heavily promoted a website.
My upline broke away from this organization because of the increasing cost of tools as well as the fact that the kingpin..you know who I'm talking about...was too "extreme" in his views.

We were also taught that 15 plans per month would only produce a trickle, whereas 30 plans a month would be a "flow", and 45 plans per month would be a "flood"....meaning increased gas expenses...Especially as this business went "out of town".

As for the stacking technique, have you figured out what a person would make with just 3 legs right at the 7500 PV mark per leg? (No side volume)

Can you share your total with me?

I know the number...would you care to share the number with me....Platinums using this method have significantly lower incomes than any other non-stacking group around. That is, if people can get to that level.

Chris, I like the opportunity for many reasons...I do think there is less of an opportunity today than in the past, due to many factors:
a) negative of the internet
b) kingpin fall-outs
c) PV adjustments
d) high prices (has always been a problem)
e) tools

Would you care sharing with me what line of sponsorship you are in? I was affiliated with Markerman.
Another question? How many books have you honestly read from Fuhrman and/or Hedges?

Posted by: Evan | October 11, 2004 11:03 PM

Chris...

I made an error. I said $10 American for tapes...I meant Canadian dollars.

What do you make of D. Van Andel being a part of another company promoting health and wellness products in direct competition with the mighty Q?

What do you make of our beloved leaders...guys who everyone respected getting busted or having lawsuits against each other?...there's too many top people (people who I once looked up to) who are in a mess. And what are they fighting for? Greed..perhaps?

You at least have to admit that all is not well in most LOS's.

Out of curiosity..what level have you reached? I was a 4000 pin...Never got any further. (I had a very successful month selling water filters)

Posted by: Evan | October 11, 2004 11:32 PM

Evan, I have been asked to be shorter in my posts so this will not cover everything.

With many great companies, the second generation do not run the company well or do not run it at all. I like it when the leadership of a company can stay in the family and I am proud of the successful handoff to the next generation Devos and Van Andel families. If one or more of the family members want to pursue anything else, that doesn't bother me at all.

Thanks for clarifying that you were using Canadian pricing for your comparisons. This explains things, but my view stands that Quixtar still has great products with more of a reach than Costco, and they are cost competitive. If you don't like them, don't order them, but I have not had any trouble in the area of products or prices and I have been building since the launch of Quixtar.

I have not yet come across an issue with anybody upline that makes me look down upon them. Many people might think that Dexter Yager is too extreme, but I think that it is great that he has the views he has, and he gets people to think about where they stand on issues. I have several liberals/democrats in my organization that enjoy the Yager events, yet do not agree with him at all.

How many IBO's do you know that have 3 legs at 7500pv with no outside volume? Even this method of depth that you are talking about does not promote no outside volume. You get to the point where you get 3 legs growing and start up a 4th, then a 5th, a 6th and so on.

Most of the emeralds I know have 7500pv outside to fully take advantage of the income at that level. If you have 3 platinum and above legs with 7500pv outside, you can literally earn well over $100k per year not including any system profits.

You state that Platinums using this depth method make less money, but this is actually better for the organization. The BV on a platinum business has been increased, so the money made from that business is actually much more, but it is spread out more evenly for the people in the organization that are doing work. This is a great improvement.

You mention Hedges and Fuhrman, and I think they are great authors. I have read a few books from them, but before I had my own business I was not a reader at all. I began reading one book per month, and some months I average one book per week.

I love Fuhrman books when they come out because they are a quick easy read and help me stay focused with a positive attitude. I love books on leadership. I am always excited to receive the new book of the month that comes out, and I also have a large library of business related books I have picked up myself over the past few years. I believe that reading is a vital key to success. If you don't like a specific book, then pass it on to someone that might make good use of it.

Posted by: Chris | October 12, 2004 7:39 AM

Chris,

I respect your optimism and your desire to build a business. I like what DeVos and Van Andel set out for people, and I do believe there are opportunities for people to make money in this business.

Having said that, I want to reply to some of your statements.
"How many IBO's do you know that have 3 legs at 7500pv with no outside volume?"

I know a few emeralds who are no longer emeralds. They were emeralds a while back but only carry that name for recognition purposes. I also know some diamonds who are not diamonds anymore. (Same situation)
Why do you think they don't go with what their present status is?...it's like saying "I'm the heavyweight champ", when in fact, you haven't had the belt for years.

"You state that Platinums using this depth method make less money, but this is actually better for the organization"

The average PV per IBO is 37/month. With stacking organizations, that total is lower according to some sources of mine. Assuming it is 30, then you would need approximately 200+ people in your organization to be a platinum. This is a lot of people......which explains why there are so few larger pins breaking anymore.

Nevertheless, I noticed just over 100 Platinums across North America in the summer of 2004. With the stacking technique, these people make an after tax income is below 20 000.

Both of these numbers are underwhelming, long term, once the one time bonuses are gone.
Chris, honestly, 20 000 is great money that can reduce someone's debt, etc....I am all for this. Mind you, I think there is much too much work involved to justify that effort.(I say this, unfairly, because I am comfortably doing well in another conventional business)
The problem I have is the hype around making the "Huge" bucks. When big Dex show his Hawkers, 12 cars, 15 000 sq. foot homes, I cannot say that this person has achieved this success by just building the business to platinum or even diamond for that matter. (Even with tool money) Doesn't this bother you in the least? The deception of feedom, and residual wealth is a myth. I would hope that you would agree with this, as anyone who disputes some of the points brought up just diminishes their own credibility.

You mention Hedges and Fuhrman, and I think they are great authors. I have read a few books from them, but before I had my own business I was not a reader at all. I began reading one book per month, and some months I average one book per week.

Posted by: Evan | October 12, 2004 3:20 PM

Evan, I think that it is better for IBO's to retain the title of the highest pin level that they have reached so far in their business. I see no problem with that. What is your solution?

A speaker walks across the stage as a new platinum and speaks all year as a platinum, and then the next year they are still a platinum unless they don't re-qualify. So if they don't re-qualify the next year do they get announced as a 4000 pin or what? Instead of complicating things, the idea of retaining the title of the highest achievement made makes more sense.

Your example of heavyweight champ doesn't fit because in that example there is only room for one champ at a time. But even using your ideas, if someone wins an olympic gold medal, they are forever known as an olympic gold medalist, even if they don't win the next year. People are recognized at the highest achievement of their career. But the bonuses are paid annually based on their current pin level so everything seems fair to me.

As far as your thoughts that Platinums are making less money, I am not disagreeing with you on this. I am just stating that this is better for everyone involved. Like I said before, there is more income per Platinum business now, but these depth techniques help distribute that income more evenly throughout the organization.

Building depth using this technique also helps keep IBO's in the business because not many people would quit their business if it is growing every month. IBO's that are doing less than 100pv are not a good example, because they don't care enough about success in their business to do enough volume to even receive a bonus check.

The way that I understand this is that your upline team helps you drive one of your legs very deep, and when you are ready and have some experience, you build out a couple other legs. This makes total sense and seems like a smart way to build this business. More groups should implement this technique.

It seems much easier to go platinum this way, because all that is needed is 2500pv outside of the leg your upline is helping you build. Many IBO's will do 1/3rd of the work to get to platinum, and so obviously the money will be much less than managing 12-15 legs and "spinning plates" the way that has been promoted in the past.

This is a positive breakthrough for many organizations affiliated with Quixtar and I hope more catch on.

I think that speakers like Dexter Yager and others should show off their lifestyle because it shows what is possible, and people need that motivation. I have never heard any of them say that their lifestyle was provided entirely from Quixtar checks, but rather that this business got them to the level where they were able to attain these things. Which is true. Dexter has everything he has because of the business, and when someone achieves high levels of success, they can also become real estate investors and start up more businesses, earn income from multiple sources and so on. When I see the lifestyle available it is very motivating.

Freedom and residual wealth is not a deception and it is totally possible for anyone that wants to achieve it. If you build and organization to a large level and implement an exit strategy then you can successfully have that business run without you needing to be there. This equals freedom and residual wealth in my book.

I personally am not building this business to walk away from it. I plan on working this business for years to come because it is exciting and everyday I wake up I am filled with passion about the day to come, and I never felt this way before starting up my Quixar-Powered business so why would I walk away from something I enjoy so much?

Evan, I appreciate your fair attitude, but we definitely have different perspectives, and while some might agree with your views, I see this business model as a positive solution for many individuals out there, including myself.

And by they way, I too have a successful business that I run on the side that keeps me comfortable, but I have big plans for the future of my family, and Quixtar is the vehicle that fits the best for those plans.

Posted by: Chris | October 12, 2004 6:49 PM

Hey Chris,

When I was on the hunt with this business, I always looked for guys like you...hungry, confident, intelligent, and optimistic.

You are definitely a good role model for people signing up for the business.

With regards to your message....I think the pins need to be honest with where they stand. A former diamond who may only be an Emerald, currently, should set the example and make that clear. I totally understand why it's done, but you know what? Walk down the halls in Ada and you will see current positions. I cannot say how disappointed I was when I did not see very many names of people in my Profiles of Success on the "Wall of Fame" Why not? Because they were no longer diamonds.

I think organizations should take that example and try to requalify. The same holds true with the Achieve magazine. People were a little surprised when they saw a former diamond in our organization back in the Achieve magazine as a founders diamond. A little bit or credibilty was lost, especially considering this person once had 50000 people in his group.

As for freedom and wealth, the big money in the tool system is only reserved for the top few. I would feel a lot better if the norm being spoken from stage was...take the income from this business and re-invest in other things to make you wealthy, as opposed to...build this business big and you'll be wealthy. The fact is that a diamond income is not outstanding, especially of you are not on tour speaking.

Another question:
Why do you think Q is not exploding like people predicted on 9.1.99?
The fact is that the main contributors of growth have been a steady increase in existing people getting onto ditto, and secondly, an increase in the number of good new products purchased by existing business owners.
I asked my friend, a diamond, what was up...Why were more people not signing up? He stated that, other than a few pockets like Team of Destiny, the rest are going through a tough transition. This transition will have to be waited out....hence the brainstorming of a number of top organizations to band together and re-create what took place in the 1990's.

Posted by: Evan | October 12, 2004 7:22 PM

Chris and Evan -

Chris, I would have to agree with you on all points, but I understand where Evan is coming from. This business might not be for him and for many others to come. But, that does not make it a scam or fantasy seller, like some websites and blog sites make it out to be. I am here now defending this opportunity because the failures in this business need something to make them feel better, instead of admitting to their own cause for non-success with Quixtar. It’s just easier to blame the system as a whole. After continued research I have found that this system does work. This system needsattention, blood, sweat and tears, as with any new company and plan to be there till Diamond and beyond.

I just wanted to comment on the Kingpin drop out...who we all now know as Bo Short. I would like to state the facts on this issue since I have researched my brains out on this one to find out WHY a diamond would leave the business.

He stated in his interview with DATE LINE that 15% of income came from Quixtar and the other 85% came from tapes and seminar sales. If you don’t understand that when you purchase a tape, the profit for that tape will be paid to the speaker, then you need a little lesson in passive income of motivational success (I.E. Robert Allen and Charlton Sheets to name a few).

Let’s break this down, the average Diamond makes between $175 and $200 thousand a year. So if this is 15% of his income, that means he was pulling in about a million a year, NOT BAD!! Why would he leave, you ask? He leaves the business and bashes it on national TV as the biggest scam. Here's why, Bo Short found out that he could start his own "MLM" system and make about Two million a year and become another Dexter on his own. He then tries to promote the rumors of Quixtar from Blog sites and media hypes to help in the demoralizing of a now competitive business. Sounds like competition bashing to me!

Anyway....I wish the best to you, Chris, in your opportunity with Quixtar and hope to see you on this site in two years to report on progress. I plan to have successful news on the growth of my new company by that time.

As for Evan, I would like to thank you for your time and comments about this opportunity and wish you the best in your future endeavors.

Sincerely -
Michael

Posted by: Michael | October 12, 2004 11:30 PM

Michael,

You said:
"I am here now defending this opportunity because the failures in this business need something to make them feel better, instead of admitting to their own cause for non-success with Quixtar. It’s just easier to blame the system as a whole. After continued research I have found that this system does work. This system needsattention, blood, sweat and tears, as with any new company and plan to be there till Diamond and beyond."

I agree with you on all counts. The business does work. Yes, you need to work it hard to make it work. I also know there needs to be major changes in the way the kingpins conduct the business for this business to start making headway. I would hope that current IBO's realize and understand this, because, as is, the business has become stagnant...hence the stategizing and manouevering of higher pins.

As for how well this works, I have been privy to some discussions about where some top leaders are taking this business. The thrust, now, is towards more retailing.....very important. Secondly, there is a move towards a more casual dresscode....great stuff. Also, the high income hype is being downplayed to make everything more sensible. Finally, there is a push to build depth, and not necessarily push towards pins beyond double diamond.
I'll give you some examples if you like.

All of this gives me hope that a business with big challenges may move out of its slump.

Posted by: Evan | October 13, 2004 11:28 AM

Evan,

I didn't expect you to be so optimistic. It is refreshing to hear this from a critic. Here is the deal. The business is not stagnant. numbers in my organization are growing every month. I could literally walk away from my business right now and my numbers would continue to grow.

At the end of the year there will be some turnover, but that is expected in business. I do not expect a high rate of non-renewal. My best estimates would guess around 20%, which I would consider good.

Quixtar is growing as a company as well. If you have been following their sales numbers, they have consistently been increasing since their launch. We haven't even experienced our first annual decline. We might not experience that for several years.

If another organization somewhere is not growing, what does that have to do with me and my organization? I just continue to do the work and keep building. I am not busy "replacing" like so many would assume. I am helping my team to become more profitable, and help them to build more depth to become more stable. We love and care for people and they want to stay in and be part of the momentum.

Some will quit, some will not quit but won't do the necessary work, and some will do the work and get profitable. The choice is up to them, and they will get help if they are willing to match the effort.

As far as the other things you mention, I am not sure about the casual dress attire. I have not seen this yet. I think that it should stay business professional. I would think that at meetings and business plans that a suit and tie would be the best attire. That is that way that my organization builds.

True, there is a focus on moving products, and there always has been. I have not once heard since the launch of Quixtar to not retail products, or at least register members to increase volume. It is in the rules that IBO's need to do this. It helps IBO's achieve higher personal volume which helps to make everyone more profitable. We have always been doing this and I don't know of anyone that isn't.

I have not yet had a problem with any upline "kingpins" and so I am not sure what you would suggest that they should do different? I am thankful for all they have done to pave the way so that someone like me has the best chance for success. They put together a training system so that I can learn from their mistakes and their wisdom.

Many of them stay in the business and speak when they don't have to do it for the money. They could easily be spending that time doing many other things and so I am very thankful for that commitment, for whatever reason it may be for each person.

As far as depth, you are right on the nail. I think that more and more organizations are realizing the strength in that direction, but there is still promotion for double diamond and beyond. We will never lose that focus. Just breaking it down into bite size pieces for now. Which makes it easier for IBO's to stay focused on the short term goals to achieve the long term ones.

Posted by: Chris | October 13, 2004 4:58 PM

The increase in business volume over the past few years has been due to:

1) Increased exposure of ditto delivery since the inception of the web-based business.
2) Much more consumable food products (health category: bars, XS, etc) (XS energy drink and the XS energy bars are two of the top five products in Q, products that did not exist before)

This is the sole reason for the small increases over the past few years. Yes, I believe there will continue to be growth, but nothing sensational unless prices are lowered.

Many pockets are growing, as I mentioned before....this is not the norm. Otherwise, there would be a massive increase in sales for Q. Your organization is growing..congrats. Most aren't. If you have access, watch for a big partnership that will rival the Puryear group. This will be done out of necessity to re-establish what was lost beforehand.
As for doing things differently, many organizations are cutting back on their numbers, going back to 6-4-2. You are seeing the number of tapes cut in half. And yes, watch for a change in dress code. I am all for this...again...my opinion does not matter, but it's happening. Driving depth is being stressed. You won't see major width pins happen as much because GETFAA points in single legs, for sponsoring diamonds underneath each other, is creating great incomes.

Chris, I ask you....would you be willing to be up front and tell me what organization you are in? Secondly, you say you can walk away and continue having the organization continue to grow. That would suggest that you are at least a Platinum? Are you?

It sounds to me like you have a good knowledge of this business. However, to not admit some of the challenges either means you are far too optimistic for your own good, or you are naive to many of the things that are going on.

Posted by: Evan | October 13, 2004 6:23 PM

Evan, because I disagree with you and other critics on the challenges that are mentioned, does not mean that I do not see many challenges. In fact, if I were on the side of the anti-critics, then I think I could add some value to this site and others in talking people out of their web based businesses.

That wouldn't happen though because I am a builder not a destroyer. I help people achieve goals and dreams and try not to talk them out of going after them. On the other hand, I am a debater and when I see something that I feel is not right, I let my opinion be heard. That is why you find me here commenting, and why I have respect for several of the critics although I disagree with them.

As of right now, I would rather not discuss pin level and organization, but when I start up my own blog, I will probably make that information public.

I am currently making a 5 figure income with the business and I am profitable at the end of the year after reasonable out of pocket business expenses. Keep in mind that I fully take advantage of every legal and ethical tax break I can get, because I don't want my tax dollars going to the government. I would rather donate that money to causes I believe in.

I hope that you can respect that anonymity from me at this point. Well, I'm going to watch the debates now, so we will have to chat later.

Posted by: Chris | October 13, 2004 8:02 PM

Chris said:
Evan, because I disagree with you and other critics on the challenges that are mentioned, does not mean that I do not see many challenges. In fact, if I were on the side of the anti-critics, then I think I could add some value to this site and others in talking people out of their web based businesses.

That wouldn't happen though because I am a builder not a destroyer. I help people achieve goals and dreams and try not to talk them out of going after them."

The fact is that you have diamonds and above criticizing the business to make it better at the company meetings. Without critique, you don't move forward. We would still be in the days of product pick up and no websites if people didn't complain and speak out with their criticisms.

Spare me on the builder not destroyer crap. The business opportunity has its strengths, but some glaring weaknesses need to be put forward....otherwise guys like Ken McDonald wouldn't have to send out emails regarding misrepresentation, etc.

You would be taken more seriously if you admit to some of these flaws and suggest recommendations yourself. To not do it makes you seem like the "Quixbot" that others are refering IBO's to, on this site.

Posted by: Evan | October 14, 2004 11:33 AM

Evan, in my organization I am big on offering solutions for growth towards a positive direction for all. I think that we are doing a great job.

I have made many recommendations to Quixtar and they have followed some of them and so that is great! I love that they are so willing to hear ideas from IBO's and implement them when they can.

We are beyond the days of product pick-up and we are now online not because of criticisms, but because technology is changing and while the principles of the business will stay the same, the practices will change. There is no proof that Quixtar was started because of criticisms of the Amway business model.

So you can assume that it was, but many companies have been moving to the web and implementing the use of new technology into their business plans. This is not unusual.

Critique is good, and I don't mind it. I have never suggested that QBlog take down this site or stop doing what he is doing. I don't mind. I am not seeing any loss in my business because of this blog or any sites like it. I just said that I personally tend not to point out what is negative, but instead to point out how something can be improved.

In a way, we are on the same side because we see a very large business model that could use some improvements, but instead of talking about how bad of a business opportunity it is, I talk about how good it is and how much better it is going to be.

You will see that Quixtar will take on a very positive direction and many critics will start to say how good some of the changes are, and meanwhile, my business will keep growing through this period, but the critics will have talked many people out of achieving their dreams and goals because things aren't perfect right now.

Posted by: Chris | October 15, 2004 5:33 AM

Chris,
"In a way, we are on the same side because we see a very large business model that could use some improvements, but instead of talking about how bad of a business opportunity it is, I talk about how good it is and how much better it is going to be."

You are totally right. The business is moving in the right direction on many fronts...out of necessity. You and I know that's the nature of business and change.

I wish the prices were a bit lower, but I do know that many of the prices are very competitive and, from a quality standpoint, we win in a lot of categories. From the Quixtar standpoint, I am impressed.

From a LOS standpoint, I see many positives. The sense of community and education is excellent. I just think the same tool system could be offered at a fraction of the cost. The upline is already making money from the efforts of the downline. Why go into excess with the tools, as so many organizations have?
The answer I got from my diamond was..."It's Free enterprise" (I have a right to make money from the tapes) I cannot accept that answer.

This is where I have my biggest challenge.

Posted by: Evan | October 15, 2004 11:20 AM