Quixtar Backbone Project - Entry Two

Evan, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. Had I written in a few years ago, I would have said much the same.

I think a question you need to ask yourself is this: am I in Quixtar to make money, or to grow personally? You've been in business for nine months, and are making only a few hundred dollars a month gross. (As a 1000 pin you won't make a profit after subtracting system costs in most AMO's. ) Keep your goals clear. Personal growth is wonderful, but you don't have to participate in "the system" to attain it.

Be sure you treat your business like a business - which means watching your profitability and costs. If after another 9 months or so you're still not NETTING a good income PER HOUR of effort, it's time to step back and do some serious thinking.

Posted by: quixmire | September 22, 2004 5:26 AM

But I do wish you the best of luck.

Posted by: quixmire | September 22, 2004 8:17 AM

I think it is odd that Evan's primary concern isn't making a profit. That is the #1 goal of any for-profit business, right?

Evan, you can go to Barnes and Noble and read any number of books to help your personal development. There is no need to bring overpriced soap into the picture!

Either way, good luck....

Posted by: Hartman | September 22, 2004 10:19 AM

Hey Evan,
Thanks for the post.
You mention that most conversation about this business is not offered with much thoughtfulness.
Case in Point: Harman's last message.

Hartman said:
I think it is odd that Evan's primary concern isn't making a profit. That is the #1 goal of any for-profit business, right?

The first question was "What is it that you most enjoy about your Quixtar business?" and Evan said "personal development". The question was not "What is your primary motivating factor for entering the business?"

Perhaps others could go to Barnes and Noble and pick up "7 Habits..."....in there it states..."seek first to understand and then to be understood".
If we all follow that thought pattern, the debate on this site could be so much more engaging.
Great advice by quixmire, by the way, that I would also recommend.

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 11:17 AM

Quixtar is filled with good people just like this guy. Sadly, good people can be taken advantage of.

Posted by: Ty | September 22, 2004 11:38 AM

Evan,

Thanks for your comments.

I have participated in the personal development program (read the books, listened to the tapes, went to conferences and called my upline every day) in Quixtar for much longer than you have and I loved it (except for the conferences), so I guess that makes me qualified to criticize it. I really like the goal-setting books and the understanding other people's personality types books, etc.
However, having been out of Quixtar for a while, I realized something--all of the tools are aimed at increasing the business. Well, of course they should be. They teach you to make goals. . . for the business. They teach you to have a better relationship. . . for the business. They teach you to have faith. . . for the business. IMO, what they don't teach you to do is how to explore what you like and how to be individual in your own thought, because if it isn't aimed at increasing your business, then it's not taught.
And that's as it should be in terms of the business, but as you say, what you read and listen to becomes your world. If the only thing you're reading is about being a better business person, when do you have time to read anything to become a better YOU?
Since leaving the business, I've read a lot more self-development books about being ME. That's my criticism of the personal development system, from someone that's been there.

Ambivalent

Posted by: Ambivalent | September 22, 2004 4:42 PM

Thanks for the responses so far. Please do not misunderstand my answers as coming from someone who does not seek to create a large, profitable business. My primary motivating factor for building the business is financial freedom.

I have always had a business philosophy of focusing on delivering value and exceeding the expectations of your customers and business partners and, in the end, your reward will be great.

One of things I value about a business powered by Quixtar over a traditional business is that the compensation plan actually rewards a service attitude towards others. If I truly focus on helping others succeed, the structure of the compensation plan will reward me.

Coming from a traditional business environment where everyone is worrying about their personal cut in a transaction, building a business based on this principle has been refreshing.

Thanks to quixmire for raising the point of treating this like any other business from a profitability standpoint. It is a good point and I agree.

I would also add that IBOs and those considering the business opportunity look at the business development time, startup cost, and overhead of a business powered by Quixtar versus a traditional business. I have been unable to find another business opportunity with the unique combination of low startup cost, low overhead, large potential income, built-in exit strategy, and accessibility of training and mentorship that a business powered by Quixtar has.

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 5:06 PM

Thank you for your comments ambivalent. My perception of the success princples that are taught by the training system of the business is that they are intended to help you succeed in building the business.

I think you are also correct that the process of self-exploration and becoming grounded in who you are and what you believe is one that is difficult to teach. However our team actively encourages self exploration to discover your dreams and the emotional reasons behind them. There is plenty of material that I have been exposed to thus far that encourages you to discover what you want and why you want it?

As far as specific books or tools to help you do that? Good point! I haven't yet been exposed to one. If you could post some of your favorite recommendations that would be wonderful.

I want to thank you for posting thoughtful, constructive comments from the standpoint of someone who has learned by doing.

The last subject I want to share in regards to your post is the subject of individuality. Too often the term duplication is misinterpreted by people inside and outside of the business as giving up your individuality to become a clone. The term duplication is actually a business term used to document the process by which a business owner is able to create increasing amounts of impact without increasing your individual effort. This applies to franchising, utilizing leveraged duplication with a technology like email, hiring employees, or in the case of a business powered by Quixtar - developing win-win relationships between independent business owners.

It is said over and over again in audios that noone is asking you to give up your own individuality to build the business. What is taught is that you should endeavor to be the best version of you that you can be.

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 5:47 PM

I am impressed by the thoughtfulness of the responses he provided. I am surprised though, that the tools profits is not something that anyone thinks needs changing, I mean, seriously, most people don't have a problem with Amway, even if it is a tad expensive. The problem people find that they have is that it's very hard to show a decent profit, and the tools are being sold as the way to achieve success when in fact the movement of tools is what provides a select few with said success.

I think that's really weird, that people involved don't feel that's part of the problem. That's what turns most people off.

Posted by: Rocket | September 22, 2004 6:31 PM

When we were 1000 pins we were on top of the world and Quixtar was all we cared about, seemingly literally as we had little time for anything else. If someone had tried to tell us anything negative or that went against Quixtar or upline or tools in anyway....We would have written that person off completely at that time. 1000 pin is really your first BIG achievement and getting there can be quite hard, we made it in less than 6 months. Some one who has been in for 9 months and is now a 1000 pin recieving Big ups from all around, being invited on stage and all that fun stuff, they cant hear any thing other than Upline and tools....I know again from experience

Posted by: nsaibo | September 22, 2004 7:11 PM

Apparently I came on too strong in that last post. In terms of "understanding" business, you could say that I am pretty a pretty capable guy. I have an BSc and a MBA in marketing.

What I don't understand is why/how anyone can go into a for-profit venture without PROFIT being their number one goal. If that is your number one goal, and assuming you achieving it, then it should be the thing you enjoy most, right?

Maybe I just answered my own question...

Anyway, Evan(s) if you want to find personal happiness you can find it without building a pyramid, or a ladder, or whatever thing you crazy Quixbots are calling it these days.

If you need additional guidance, you can check out the "Zen and the Art of.. "series at B&N. Just look out for the Business section of that store, I hear a lot of Quixbots hang out there to recruit!

Posted by: hartman | September 22, 2004 7:55 PM

hartman, may I ask what you personal involvement and experience with Quixtar has been?

I can tell that you are very opinionated and would invite you to share some of your background with the business to we can gain a better sense of your perspective.

I am not judging your degrees or your ability to understand business or business concepts, I just would like to know a little more about what personal experience you had to formulate the opinions that you express.

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 8:35 PM

Congrats on the 1000 Evan. I've been with quixtar for 4 months now, I find it amusing all these critics telling IBO's to go to B&N and read some "real" business books, HELLO, why go to the store when we are partnered with them through quixtar.com? haha, j/k
If quixtar.com is so horrible, why would major companies like B&N, curcuit city, ect... want to be partners with us?

Of course the top 10%-50% make a majority of the money, they have proven to be an asset for creating VOLUME for these companies. It's not a get rich quick scheme, but the opportunity of financial success is there, a better opportunity than a "job" in the workforce because its just part-time and the money has no ceiling.

For anyone considering joining quixtar.com or any other MLM, my advice to you is to think where you will be in 5 years doing what you do now, or where you can be in 5 years if you build your own business.

Posted by: Brad | September 22, 2004 8:55 PM

Evan:

I am a thirtysomething business manager and a loving husband and father.

I do my job well and I am compensated well for it. I spend 40-50 hours at work and then I go home and enjoy my family. Everything, surprisingly, is pretty great for the moment.

I take issue with people who claim to understand business without formal training. I take greater issue with people who dupe others into the "fake it until you make it" mentality of the AmQuix business model.

First and foremost, I am tolerant of liars and cheats. I have been lied to, and my employer has been cheated by AmQuix idiots. So, your beloved business model is on my list.

But enough about me, how about you?
What do you know about Economics?

I ask this because a 101 class would show you that the basic premise of AmQuix doesn't hold up against the ideals of Supply/Demand, nor does it address Saturation.

If you can prove otherwise, I'd love to hear from you........

Posted by: hartman | September 22, 2004 9:30 PM

It's great to see so many current IBO's who are in the business joining in on the conversation. It's also great to hear from many of the ex-IBO's, people who seem to have the intellect to support their arguments in a convincing and reasonable manner.
I do have a problem with the tone of some of the people on here, however. To call someone a "Quixbot" seems very harsh. Many of the business building IBO's on here seem like very intelligent people who are very capable of making wise decisions on their own.

The business is a legal opportunity with a real opportunity to make money. I don't think "the system" holds a powerful grip on people to stay in the business and continue to lose money, hence the whole "Quixbot" comment. Instead, I think what keeps them in is the belief that the individual can possibly make it one day.

I firmly believe that with a focused effort, people can earn $500-$1000/month profit with this business, without the system, very easily. To be able to do that and pay off your mortgage early would be a huge success. Can people do that while moving expensive products? I don't know...how is Starbucks doing nowadays? Why is Colombia Sporstwear surviving when you can buy clothes from Walmart? Why would anyone buy Pepsi when they can buy the noname brand for much less?

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 9:33 PM

Evan(s):

I am not sure if there are two of you or not. I'll post again, so BOTH of you can take a shot at this one:

But enough about me, how about you?
What do you know about Economics?

I ask this because a 101 class would show you that the basic premise of AmQuix doesn't hold up against the ideals of Supply/Demand, nor does it address Saturation.

If you can prove otherwise, I'd love to hear from you........

P.S. Starbucks is doing very well. Bad example to bring up, my friend.

Posted by: hartman | September 22, 2004 9:36 PM

Hartman,

Its great to hear that you are successful at what you do. I'm happy to hear that you have a sense of peace about it.
I do want to address a few things you said:

You said:
"I ask this because a 101 class would show you that the basic premise of AmQuix doesn't hold up against the ideals of Supply/Demand, nor does it address Saturation"

"101 class"? "ideals of supply/demand"? Wow! Come on now. This is how I see the basic premise of the business....obtain the rights to sell the products...sell the products to customers.(period) What's the big deal? This model has held up for over 40 years for people who have treated the opportunity like a business and done just that.

Next point:
"I take issue with people who claim to understand business without formal training".
Talk to guys like Trump, Kyosaki, Gates, as well as the many others who have achieved success without much formal training. As Trump alluded to, he leaves the theorizing to the business school professors and the doing to people who are actually making money.

I take issue with people who claim to understand business with no business success from a profit standpoint.

I admire the people with the balls to actually engage in the entrepreneurial spirit to pursuing a business of their own. If Quixtar is the selected opportunity, great....whether they succeed or not, it is a valuable learning experience.

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 9:51 PM

Hartman,

Starbucks is doing great! That is my point, my friend. Expensive product, big time success. Quixtar...expensive product, good success. My point is that there is a demand for the Quixtar product, otherwise the company would have been dead years ago.

And yes, there are two Evan's. Confusing to me, that's for sure.

And let's not complicate the economics issue. There are too many successful business owners with no formal business training to warrant an answer to that, unless of course you want to go head to head on the discussion of economic theory....I'll pass....you win! Congratulations, I really hope your knowledge is serving you well.

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 10:00 PM

Evan--thank you for proving my point(s):

Evan-->"101 class"? "ideals of supply/demand"? Wow! Come on now.

No, really, you come on. Take a class at the your local CC and get an eduation. The facts are going to blow you away once there isn't a QuixSpin on things.

This is how I see the basic premise of the business....obtain the rights to sell the products...sell the products to customers.(period)

NO WAY EVAN! The purpose of business is to provide fill a need though products/serivces.

Why should I buy substandard energy drink from you at a mark-up? Where's the alleviated need in that?

Evan--> Talk to guys like Trump, Kyosaki, Gates, as well as the many others who have achieved success without much formal training. As Trump alluded to, he leaves the theorizing to the business school professors and the doing to people who are actually making money.

Without much formal training? Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. However, you know these are exceptions -and- even these exceptions have SOME formal training.

Evan-->I admire the people with the balls to actually engage in the entrepreneurial spirit to pursuing a business of their own. If Quixtar is the selected opportunity, great....whether they succeed or not, it is a valuable learning experience.

I too admire the entreprenurial spirit. However AmQUix has nothing to do with that spririt at all. You're all a bunch of sheep, singing the same songs, listening to the same CDs, drinking the same crappy energy drink. Where's the "balls" in that?

I think it is a shame that people get their 'valueable learning experience' by losing $$$ at AmQuix, when they could be learning more, for less with their 101s!!!

Evan, I feel for you buddy, the reality is really gonna sting when you snap out of it. Good luck.

Posted by: hartman | September 22, 2004 10:09 PM

Evan2:

Your admitted lack of knowlege in econonmics speaks volumes..much like Evan1.

Rather than rub your nose in it, I encourage you to learn the basics and then OBJECTIVELY measure those principals against the business model you are currently in.

Good luck.

Posted by: hartman | September 22, 2004 10:13 PM

Hartman,

I'm going to be straight with you. I don't appreciate your BS. The reason why it's BS is that you spout off a lot of garbage without knowing the facts about me.

The business i am currently building, and have been building for the past 3 years is a very successful conventional business. It is not a Quixtar business...I sell to Quixtar business owners as a small part of my business. I have friends in the business. I too have a Quixtar business/membership that I do nothing with other than buy products that I think are a decent deal, shipped to my door because I'm too busy to shop. I don't buy into the system. I don't support the system. I think many of the leaders within the business are sleazy. I try to tell my friends not to buy into a system. They can go to the library to get better information on business, at no cost. And yes, the Zen book you recommended from wherever was lent to me by a buddy who happens to be an IBO.(lol)

Now to address other issues...

You may buy that product (XS) because it is a unique product....almost calorie free energy drink. Where I am, there is nothing that compares. You may buy the products because you appreciate the high touch service or the convenience of ditto-delivery. That is why the company is still in business..it's products have value to some...(not you, however, which is fine)
Is that filling a need? Hmmm.

I agree that people should not lose valuable dollars for the experience when they can get it elsewhere. My point is...if someone loses money, and decides to move on, then sobeit....instead of being sour, be optimistic about the fact that you learned something and move on.
Do you agree with that? Hmmm.

So anyway, do you really feel for me? You don't even know my situation. And yeah, I too feel great about what is happening in my life. We have something in common. Let's seek some common ground instead of trying to be one up on each other.

Personally, I don't agree with Chris or Evan nor do I agree with this business as a career option...I am damn impressed that they defend it, though, and I wish them the best. I hope they make good money on it, too, just to prove to people that it can be done. I like most IBO's. I think most are hardworking people like you and I. I also choose to believe that they are intelligent people who have their own reasons for staying in the business. That's good enough for me. I don't need to judge them.

And as I said, I have no interest in debating you on the economics issue. I'd love to kick your ass financially, as I am very competitive that way, but hey....that's another story. I am glad you bring your particular talent to the table. You are a passionate person with some brains...you win the economics debate. Hurray!! Now go and make some money to support your family and your dreams with it.

Got the message Hartman?

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 10:53 PM

Well, that's two for two.

Maybe the third entry will be the magic that can mix oil and water.

Keeping my fingers crossed...though I can't promise to hold my breath.

Posted by: Brian Johnson | September 22, 2004 11:10 PM

Hartman,

I would love to participate in this discussion about Supply/Demand and Saturation.

So that I can better address your comments, please enlighten me as to how you feel Quixtar is not positioned well in these areas and I will respond.

Here is some Marketing 101 you can appreciate. (Free Education in the comments section!)

In economics, "market saturation" is a term used to describe a situation in which a product has become diffused (distributed) within a market; the actual level of saturation can depend on consumer purchasing power; as well as competition, prices, and technology.

For example, in advanced economies an extremely high percentage of households own refrigerators (more than 97% of households) i.e. the diffusion rate is more than 97%, and the market is said to be saturated i.e. further growth of sales of refrigerators will occur basically only as a result of population growth and in cases where one manufacturer is able to gain market share at the expense of others.

To give another example, in advanced western households, and depending on the economy, the number of automobiles per family is greater than 1. To the extent that further market growth (i.e. growth of the demand for automobiles) is constrained (the main buyers already own the product), the market is said to be basically saturated. Future sales depend on several factors including the rate of obsolescence (at what age cars are replaced), population growth, and societal changes such as the spread of multi-car families.

Posted by: chris | September 22, 2004 11:18 PM

Dojo, with all due respect, you don't understand what's going on with this project. Many don't and I expected that but a few do and those that "get it" are seeing the value in this project.

Posted by: QBlog | September 22, 2004 11:26 PM

Chris,

gotta love ya man!! Stepping up and saying what you do on this site, with the passion you have for this business is great.
There's some others on here who appreciate you as well, whether they are on your side of the fence or the other.

You wouldn't mind sharing your line of sponsorship would you?(biggest pins) No big deal if you choose not to. Very curious though.

Posted by: Evan | September 22, 2004 11:27 PM

Evan,

I was at the same level where you are exact 2 years ago. Spet 2002 we did 1000 PV. It was our 2nd month though (not saying u r slow :) But the thing is, it's an uphill battle, even upto diamond. We gotta keep replacing our downline. Less than half stick to the 2nd year, on average. Personal growth is there, but some bad habits also creeps in. E.g. looking every one as a prospect etc. or cutting off outside biz friends and family.

Btw good job for stepping up. u da man! wish u best of luck in whatever u do. Now pay me $10 for the teaching I gave u.

LOL just kidding.

Posted by: Imran Aziz | September 23, 2004 12:04 AM

Evan2:

To address your points

E2: You may buy that product (XS) because it is a unique product....almost calorie free energy drink. Where I am, there is nothing that compares.

H: Everyone and their brother has a calorie free energy drink out. Where do you live, Timbuktu. Did you actually do any research on the energy drink market? It's huge!

E2: I agree that people should not lose valuable dollars for the experience when they can get it elsewhere. My point is...if someone loses money, and decides to move on, then sobeit....instead of being sour, be optimistic about the fact that you learned something and move on.
Do you agree with that? Hmmm.

H: No, I don't agree with that. If I can get a few people to "tune in and drop out" of the AmQuix cult, then I am doing some good. There is enough difficulty & complication in the world today; if I can cut some of that out, so-be-it !!!

E2: Let's seek some common ground instead of trying to be one up on each other. ...I'd love to kick your ass financially, as I am very competitive that way, but hey....that's another story. ...Got the message Hartman?

H: Did you really just contradict yourself in a matter of sentences. That has to be a record.

At least you don't buy into the tools business....yet....I am sure you'll be into that soon enough....

Posted by: Hartman | September 23, 2004 8:35 AM

First off, for Brad, why would other companies become partner stores with Quixtar? Simple. Just read this thread and look for the theme of "profit motive." The cost of a Partner Store to sign up is minimal, as most partner sites are mirror web-sites that only cost the extra bandwidth. And in return, partner stores get access to 350,000 dedicated web buyers (IBO's). Sure partner stores make a less per sale because some of it goes to Quixtar, but, for the most part, partnering up requires little investment and a chance to enhance total volume.

As for Quixtar and supply/demand and market saturation, you have to look at the history of the company back to the Amway days. Thirty years ago, the number of IBO's was around 360,000. Today, there are about 350,000. I think we can agree that the total number of IBO's is "saturated" as new ones just replace old ones. This is true despite large population growth in the past thirty years.

Second, we need to look at who is buying the products. An independant audit years ago came to the conclusion that 80% of all Amway sales were done to IBO's. Look at Quixtar's own figures that the average IBO only has .2 member/client signed up under him and this relates to the 80% number, as there are five IBO's to every one retail customer, or .83% of people buying Quixtar are IBO's. And remember, IBO's have more incentive to buy them members/clients (re: profit motive)

So, if we combine the two points, we see a situation where the number of buyers are saturated (IBO's) and the demand is only as great as the number of IBO's multiplied by 1.2. It's not a big number, as there are only about 420,000 people buying Quixtar products. Now, if IBO's that quit became members/clients things would change, but on the open market, the overwhelming majority of IBO's who quit the business, quit buying Quixtar products.

Posted by: dmm | September 23, 2004 10:32 AM

Hartman,

I thought about getting into it with you, on here, but it's pointless and a waste of both of our time.
I know this blog is here for people to express their viewpoints and to get different perspectives. While I certainly have my opinions of you, I appreciate your insight. The dialogue on this site certainly makes the Qblog site an interesting one.

Staying in line with the post about Evan...Evan, do you think the system could be administered in a way that is less costly to the IBO, so much so, that the "tools" issue becomes almost insignificant?
I have had discussions with a diamond friend in the business...... apparantly, this is what is being somewhat sought after in a major line of sponsorship. I don't really believe that this will happen, but at least they have moved from 8 training tapes/month to 4 /month, the book of the month is becoming more and more relevent to leadership and success in general, and functions have dropped to shorter sessions for a fraction of the cost of what is still out there with many lines of sponsorship.

Posted by: Evan | September 23, 2004 11:14 AM

Evan,

Thanks for your comments. Your comments seem very thoughtful as well.

I'd like to comment on something that you mentioned in your response post to me on individuality.

Evan wrote:
"The last subject I want to share in regards to your post is the subject of individuality. Too often the term duplication is misinterpreted by people inside and outside of the business as giving up your individuality to become a clone. . . . It is said over and over again in audios that noone is asking you to give up your own individuality to build the business. What is taught is that you should endeavor to be the best version of you that you can be."

I did hear this over and over again that "no one is asking you to give up your own individuality to build the business." And I remember wondering what they meant by that. IMO, almost everything about the business and lots of things about the rest of life is scripted by the tapes.

They tell you what to wear--women need to wear dresses even in the dead of winter, men need to wear suits even in the sweltering heat of summer. They tell you what to look like--no facial hair for men, makeup for women and for both, always look presentable because you don't know when you'll see a prospect. They tell you what to say--the whole presentation is scripted with lots of additional phrases that are required. They tell you what to think and how to act--always think positive and project a positive attitude, no matter what, even if someone just died in your family (heard this on a tape). They tell you what to eat especially at conferences--protein bars and XS. They tell you what faith to be--only Chrisitian services at conferences, no others are available or tolerated, from what I've seen. They tell you how to have relationships--divorce is not acceptable. Etc. And I could got on, because as I mentioned, I listened to lots of tapes.

And if you don't follow any of these rules/guidelines, you'll be severely either ostracized or chastized. You see that happening often to others if not yourself.

How about if you're like QBlog and want to have a blog journaling your thoughts? From what he's noted, that didn't seem acceptable. Again, QBlog, please correct me if I'm in error here.

In my own case, I hate traveling and staying in hotels and going to conferences where I'm not learning anything. But I was told in no uncertain terms that I need to go and that we all "do things that we don't want to do." When I responded that I don't do things I don't want to do, my upline became cold and walked out of the room.

So within all of this, where is there room for individuality?

I've listened to tapes of many, many diamonds and except for the pitch of their voice, they sound indistinguishable.

A couple months ago, I was browsing at a bookstore and heard someone across the room at the coffee area. Within a minute, I knew he was in Quixtar. I stayed for a couple more minutes to confirm my suspicion. After a couple minutes, he mentioned ditto delivery and some of the products.

I've worked at a lot of places, and yes, there's a culture, but I can't walk into a room and within two minutes know if someone works for Motorola or Nextel or any other company, and know it for certain.

So given all this, could you give us your take on what they mean by individuality?

Thanks for your time and comments.

Ambivalent

Posted by: Ambivalent | September 23, 2004 11:24 AM

Evan (1&2);

You have NO point to make, that's why our discussion is pointless.

You'll soon run into the same dead end with DMM and Ambivilent.

Later, you'll run into the same dead end with 'your business'.

Can't you see that far out into the future? Are you myopic due to your focus on the outer edges of your Dream Circle?

Sad, really.....

Posted by: hartman | September 23, 2004 12:55 PM

Thank you for sharing your insights ambivalent. I would agree that there is quite a bit of information passed down via audios focusing on what the speakers believe are ways to build a larger business, have better relationships, and live a happier life.

However, this information has always been offered to me in the context of giving me information and techniques to maximize my effectiveness and stack the odds of success in my favor. Support from my Business Support Team has never been cut off because I made the choice as an individual to dress differently or to have a different haircut.

Counseling from my Business Support Team has always been done in the context of my goals and my timeline.

One of the significant challenges in the business is that to best leverage your time a fair amount of training is done via audios. Many of the audios purposely give very general information. I think this is why many of the diamond tapes sound similar or give similar information. When you give a talk that is recorded and published as a training or motivational audio there are many attempts to inform people listening that the information is general, and that any specific questions should be directed to members of your support team. Also the very nature of building a business centered around a repeatable success pattern would result in similar stories.

I have relied heavily on my business support team to clarify generalities in the audios.

In the end, the nature of this business makes it very important who you choose as your partners. Does your support team have your best interests in mind? Are they ethical? Are they trustworthy? Do they have the patience to explain why things are done?

As a business owner, I am very interested in working with people who have their own individual identity and build the business with a strong sense of who they are and why they are building it. In the end I think this is the strongest asset you can have because people can sense a lack of authenticity.

I also understand that sometimes I will be in a situation where I am not myself because I am stretching out of my comfort zone in an effort to grow.

Posted by: Evan | September 23, 2004 3:15 PM

Hartman,

My "point" is that you assume and sometimes insult without really understanding. I find it very offensive.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Having two Evans on here must be confusing.

The fact is, I am not an active IBO nor to I purchase tools. I don't go to meetings, either. I have hardly any PV, nor do I care for PV. (I think some of Quixtar's products are great and their ditto delivery service is fantastic in meeting my needs)

When you say "you'll run into the same dead end with your business" which business are you referring to? You don't know my business. I don't consider having an IBO #, my business. I own a conventional business.

When you say "Can't you see that far out into the future....are you myopic, etc" What are you exactly referring to? Is it my view of where the Quixtar business is headed? Are you referring to my business..the one which you have no clue about? Is it my Quixtar membership?

You have said that I can find happiness without building a pyramid...whatever you crazy Quixbots call it (as you put it)

The only pyramid I've ever built is the lego pyramid I built with my 4 yr old son. I have no interest in building a Quixtar business. What exactly is a crazy Quixbot? Is it someone who orders 20-30PV of product per month, gets contracted by IBO organizations to speak about a certain topic, and has some friends in the business? Can't someone be friends with the dreaded "IBO". They are human beings, for God's sake.

Anyways, I actually very much agree with most of DMM and Ambivalent's points. They make total sense. I agree with many of your points too. The difference between you and them is that they don't have an edge to them.

Now let's move on so that we can tangle on some of the fresher posts. You'll find that we agree on much more than you think.

Posted by: Evan | September 23, 2004 3:20 PM

In regards to less costly tools administration, leaders in my Support Team have reported on discussions between a group of Diamonds that the entire audio system is moving to MP3s.

I'm not sure of the specifics but I can see a system where a small monthly subscription fee can be charged for access to a Peer to Peer system for downloading audios. Audios can be broken down by subject and each line of sponsorship can select a library of audios that are consistent with the way they recommend the business be built.

Books can eventually be distributed as eBooks. Functions can be available via video feeds.

These are some examples of how technology can be used to improve tool distribution and keep everyone's focus on building the business and more effectively moving product.

Also this can reduce the barriers that geography often presents to selecting an organization affiliation according to values rather than convenience of geography.

I will personally advocate quick adoption of these technologies and minimally I plan to adopt/develop them for use in my organization.

Posted by: Evan | September 23, 2004 4:16 PM

That is great to hear, Evan.
One of my biggest beefs with this opportunity is the cost of educational tools that, in my opinion don't measure up to the quality that they should be to enable anyone to succeed.
Lowering the training costs in every way is a huge step in the right direction. What is your honest opinion of the quality of the material? How would you improve it?
I know of one organization that has moved away from business specifics to focus more on business, sales, people skills and leadership in general. Your thoughts would be very welcome.

Posted by: Evan | September 23, 2004 4:30 PM

Hartman, still waiting for your views on how Quixtar is not positioned well when it comes to supply/demand and market saturation.

Posted by: chris | September 23, 2004 4:54 PM

I'm sure different organizations handle pricing of tools differently. My Support Team has monthly $18 functions that last about 6 hours. The monthly functions tend to be an equal mix of product information, specific strategies for building the business, and motivation.

I know that the leadership in my Support Team spends a large amount time and effort focused on maximizing the return on investment in the tool system. There is a large amount time spent into figuring out what the organization needs are at any particular time so they can plan the right speakers.

Coming from a world where a three day seminar on how to use a computer program like Adobe Photoshop can cost over $1000, I honestly feel like local seminars at $18 and major functions at ~$125 are priced fairly.

Providing consistent personal value in the audios is a little more challenging. With so many IBOs all with different personalities and reasons for building the business there are bound to be audios that you do not relate to. Again to maximize the value out of my investment in audios, I take the time and listen to each one and then loan them out to potential partners or IBOs not on the audio system based on potential relatability with the speaker.

Again if you enter into the business venture with the attitude of

'I am building a business that others have turned into a 6-7 figure source of income that does not require their fulltime attention'

then a tool investment of approximately $100 per month does not seem outlandish.

I think the challenge comes in working with business owners who have smaller goals. I agree with your earlier assertion that you can turn the business into something that creates an additional $500 to $1000 a month without an investment in tools. You can just get familiar with the products, do some retailing, and maybe show the plans to ethusiastic customers.

It is difficult for me to see how one could build a large business that could create financial freedom for your family without the tool system.

Posted by: Evan | September 23, 2004 5:17 PM

Sorry I realized after I posted my last response that I didn't answer the other Evan's question.

How would I improve the tool system?

It is really hard to say because I am sure that your reference point for tools and mine are very different. Each organization has different tools and I am only familiar with the ones that are promoted by my Business Support Team. I know that the leaders of my Team are among the most demanded speakers in the country and the reason that is most frequently cited is the tools and system that they have for building the business.

I also know that other groups are growing faster who don't have the advantage of our tools and the reason that is cited for their success is just a higher level of excitement.

I am all for reducing the barriers to entry by reducing the cost of participation in the training system, I would just offer this comment. The barriers to entry for this business compared to almost any traditional business are already very low. It seems that there is a phenomenon where people fail because they never treat their business like a business because there is not a huge startup cost or ongoing overhead.

Posted by: Evan | September 23, 2004 5:53 PM

Evan,

I would have to agree that the overhead of this business is ridiculously low.
I would venture to say that most people fail with this business because they don't treat it like a business (Meaning retailing and showing the plan) on a consistent enough basis to warrant a profit.
I also believe that taking responsibility for your own failures is difficult, and that it is much easier to point the blame at someone else. This is what I see with a lot of disgruntled ex-IBO's. Many got in all excited but when they did nothing to advance their business, and ended up losing 10000-20000 dollars years later, they ended up becoming bitter, trashing the very business that once gave them hope.

Where I disagree with you is the opportunity to become wealthy with this business. I think it can provide a decent living (mind you, you would have to pay a huge price for that success), but how much of a sacrifice do you think it is to reach that standard of living?

Posted by: Evan | September 23, 2004 6:08 PM

Evan,

Thanks again for your interesting comments.

Evan wrote:
"In the end, the nature of this business makes it very important who you choose as your partners. Does your support team have your best interests in mind? Are they ethical? Are they trustworthy? Do they have the patience to explain why things are done?

As a business owner, I am very interested in working with people who have their own individual identity and build the business with a strong sense of who they are and why they are building it. In the end I think this is the strongest asset you can have because people can sense a lack of authenticity."

I wholeheartedly agree. I've heard it said many times that if I felt that I couldn't be myself or didn't get my questions answered to my satisfaction, it must be because I don't have a great upline. And so I changed uplines to a totally different BSM system. And interestingly, I didn't see much of a difference. And now here's my problem. I'd like to have a great upline, one that answers my questions, understands the legalities and potential problems of the business and allows me to be me. But where do I find one? Mostly Quixtar people recruit others. It's not like looking for a job where all the choices are public and in front of you and the information is public. Each time I joined an organization, it took a long time to ascertain whether they understood the old "10 customer rule" and what it stood for. And if I found that they didn't understand, I was stuck in their business. Quixtar doesn't allow transfers without a 6 month waiting period unless all parties agree. And then you're not allowed to take your downline.

So what would your suggestion be in going about picking an upline and making sure they understand my needs as well as the pitfalls of the business, and are ethical, honest and have integrity? (BTW, having spoken and listened to a lot of IBOs, I hadn't found anyone that fit this description yet. But I haven't given up trying entirely. I suspect, though, that their BSM system must be significantly different than the ones I've been in so far, and I think I've been in the two biggest.)

Another question:

Evan wrote:
"I also understand that sometimes I will be in a situation where I am not myself because I am stretching out of my comfort zone in an effort to grow."

I've heard this many, many times before also. How do you know when you're "stretching out of [your] comfort zone" and when you're just not comfortable with an idea because it's not right or applicable to you? How do you keep from second-guessing yourself?

For example, if your upline says to go talk to everyone you meet in the supermarket check-out line and see if they're interested in Quixtar and you say, hmmm. . . I think this could be rude, I don't like strangers talking to me in check-out lines and pitching products, so I don't want to do it to others. How do you know if you're right about your feeling or if you're just needing to "stretch out of [your] comfort zone?"

Going back to the individuality thing, this is where I began to doubt myself. I felt that some of the tactics and techniques that people were using weren't very respectful of others. But I wasn't able to assert my individuality and voice my concerns because if someone upline said it, it must be true. So the problem must lie with me. But again, this is where I didn't feel free to be me.

How do you deal with this?

Ambivalent

Posted by: Ambivalent | September 23, 2004 6:33 PM

Chris, it is not a matter of positioning AmQuix in supply/demand, but rather, the impact of AmQuix tries to impose on supply/demand.

When supply is limited to a few sources, and demand is constant or rising, the result is price inflation.

AmQuix prices are already inflated (gotta spread that money around that 'ladder'), so this would be a result of even greater price inflation.

I hope this explains it for you. You can disagree all you want, but you can find it any 101 book published in the last 50 years.

Also for your consideration:

Do you find it strange that you have to spend @$2.50 to make a buck back?

Why does AmQuix deal in PV, why not work on dollar amount, so everyone can undestand? What's with the cryptic system?

What would the world be like if EVERYONE joined AmQuix, what kind of place would that be. Would your ideal lifestyle be so ideal?

Posted by: hartman | September 23, 2004 9:29 PM

hartman,

This had me LOL!, so thanks.

hartman wrote:
"What would the world be like if EVERYONE joined AmQuix, what kind of place would that be. Would your ideal lifestyle be so ideal?"

I don't know what the question means, but if this includes EVERYONE, would you have joined too?

It boggles the mind to think about, really. What if EVERYONE did any one thing? It'd be a pretty dull place, IMO.

Posted by: Ambivalent | September 23, 2004 11:07 PM

Everyone breathes... well except for Robots.

Posted by: QBlog | September 23, 2004 11:22 PM

Hartman,

Your explanation did not prove anything. I was hoping for a more detailed explanation, as I thought that you actually had something. DMM had a response below that I will also comment on in my next post, and while his is more descriptive, it is flawed and so I will address that as well.

You used one sentence to try to illustrate your side of the debate regarding our conversation of supply/demand and market saturation, and how Quixtar supposedly imposes on it. Let’s try to simplify what you said for some of the readers. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like we could sum up your opinion with the following points.

1) Quixtar’s prices are already inflated.
2) Supply is limited to a few sources.
3) Demand is rising.
4) Quixtar’s prices will become even more inflated.

Here is my response:

Quixtar uses price signals just like any other company would to determine what price they should sell their products at. You assume that these prices are inflated, but there is no evidence to show that they are. Your explanation for why you think the prices are inflated was because you “gotta spread that money around that 'ladder'”, meaning that they must inflate the cost of the products to allow for extra profit to pay distributors.

Could it possibly be that Quixtar doesn’t put their money into traditional advertising, which for many companies is 30% of every dollar, and so that is where they come up with the profit margin to pay the distributors (IBO’s), for doing the advertising.

Quixtar’s products are competitively priced with the market and from a business standpoint; Quixtar does a good job holding its price stability through very low positive inflation. As product prices go up, which is inevitable, the profit margins are adjusted with inflation.

In fact, experts will agree that a small amount of inflation actually has a positive effect on the economy. One reason for this is that it is difficult to renegotiate some prices, downwards, so that with generally increasing prices it is easier for relative prices to adjust. But to go into a discussion on this is not important because you have not clearly illustrated how Quixtar has a problem in the area of inflation.

You are also not clear at all about how you feel that supply is limited to a few sources. How is the supply any more limited than a traditional company that sells consumable products to the general population such as Proctor and Gamble, etc. Now that I think about it, your entire side of the debate is lacking sufficient content to make sense because you don’t address how the demand is rising as well. So if you wish to have this conversation, I would ask that you please illustrate your points clear enough so that they can be debated.

The main focus of the diverse products that Quixtar offers, are its line of consumable household products. These are widely recognized as high-quality products at reasonable prices. They are products that the average household in America would be likely to use, in the general categories of Health Products, Personal Care Products, and Household Cleaning Products. Quixtar categorizes these as “Home, Health, and Self” products.

Since the product prices and pv/bv (profit) is adjusted for inflation, that makes the products virtually inflation-proof.

Since the product focus is on household consumables, i.e. Makeup, vitamins, cleaning supplies, toilet paper, etc. This shows how the company is well positioned in the case of a recession. If the market goes down, then people start spending less money, and we will see the following 2 things happen.

1) Consumers will keep using toilet paper, cleaning supplies, vitamins, makeup, etc. So Quixtar does not see a direct hit from a down economy. Further proof of this can be noted by looking at their timeline since launch, where you will see a steady increase in volume and sales, even though the economy as a whole went through a recession and several market downturns. http://www.quixtarfacts.com/pdf/112603--BusinessMilestones.pdf

2) When the economy is down we see more layoffs and people on unemployment and more people are realizing that they do not have the job security they thought they once had. This turns more people on to looking at other solutions like going into business for themselves, which puts more people in the looking zone for opportunities like becoming an Independent Business Owner Powered by Quixtar.

We can even look at the flip-side, when the economy is going up; people are excited about financial opportunities and feel safer about looking at things that they might have earlier thought looked risky like stock market investments, real estate, business ownership, franchises, and more. So in this situation, many people make the time to look at a business opportunity like owning their own Quixtar-Powered Business. So no matter what type of spin you put on it, Quixtar is positioned well in these areas and will continue to grow as an excellent opportunity for business ownership for individuals like you and I.

I think I have made my case clear unless you want to provide further evidence as to your claims.

Now to answer more questions: You said “Do you find it strange that you have to spend @$2.50 to make a buck back”?

When I shop at Costco how much do they pay me? When I spend $2.50 at Albertsons, Safeway, Wal-Mart, Starbucks, Blockbuster, or anywhere for that matter how much do they pay me?

An IBO can buy a dozen cans of Cherry Blast XS Energy Drink for $20.40 that taste great, give them energy, are healthy for them and have zero carbs and only 8 calories in each can. Quixtar will pay them in between 3% and 25% based on how much volume they have moving through their business. At 25% back, an IBO will get paid over $5.00 just for purchasing the case of XS Drinks at a fair market value. I personally have several members and customers that love XS Energy Drinks, and I make a good profit off of retail sales from this product through my business.

Bottom Line: No, I do not find anything strange about earning income by selling, consuming, promoting and advertising products to other clients, members and IBO’s.

Next Question: You said “Why does Quixtar deal in PV, why not work on dollar amount, so everyone can understand”?

You will find that on many of their private label brands like XS Energy, Artistry Skin Care, Nutrilite and more d0 operate on full pv/bv, which is equal to the dollar amount. The XS example I gave above is an example of a core line product that has full pv/bv and so you will get paid a percentage of the dollar amount you spend, based on the level you are at in the business.

So your question must be directed at the Non-Private label branded products that Quixtar offers like Sony, Levis, Kellogg’s and even partner stores and services like Circuit City, Barnes & Noble, and MCI.

Think about it. What exactly are Quixtar’s options when it comes to working out a compensation plan of each product? They can’t just do a flat percentage across the board, because it would be impossible to negotiate the same profit margin on a pair of Levi’s Jeans as they can on their own private branded line of Nutrilite Supplements. And since the amount of profit they are able to negotiate on each of these non-private label branded products is different, they needed to develop another system to track profit, so a point system makes much more sense.

If all Quixtar offered was their own core-line products, similar to companies like Passport, then it would be easy to do away with the pv/bv system and just have a flat rate, but Quixtar is able to offer hundreds of thousands of additional products by implementing this point system. If you would rather work for a company that just has a flat profit rate per product, then you should check into Passport, (if you are not already joined), but they won’t be able to even come close to the quantity, quality and diversity of the product line that Quixtar has to offer.

Your last question was answered well by Ambivalent below, so there is no need for me to touch on it here.

Posted by: chris | September 24, 2004 2:03 AM

DMM,

Thanks for responding with some actual content in your post regarding supply/demand and market saturation. I have taken the time to respond to you as well as Hartman’s recent post on the same subject.

Your statistics for Amway distributors is way off. You said 30 years ago there were around 360,000 and today there are around 350,000. How did you come up with that statistic? I couldn’t even guess how. According to Amway’s website, “Today, more than 3.6 million independent business owners distribute Amway products in more than 80 countries and territories”. That is 10x the figure that you have. Show some evidence of your figures so that they are clear for all of us.

On top of that, you think that the opportunity is “saturated” because “IBO’s just keep replacing old ones with new ones”. One way to prove this false is to just go outside and ask people if they have ever heard of Quixtar. A friend and I did that once just for fun in a crowded business area and only a few out of DOZENS had ever heard of the company.

I will agree that many people have heard of name Amway, and that there is a mix of positive and negative views, but most probably don’t even know any specific details of the company. Most probably think that it is a company where you sell soap door to door, and haven’t even seen the business plan, so I do not believe that even that company has reached total market saturation in any way.

There U.S. population is roughly 300,000,000 and over 75% of them are over 18 and eligible for this business opportunity.
In the U.S. over 10,000 young adults turn 18 every day and so there is a fast growing segment of eligible business partners.

There is a very large market for potential IBO’s and the number will continue to grow over the years to the point where there will be millions upon millions of IBO’s worldwide that have businesses powered by Quixtar. As far as who is buying the products, I agree with you that IBO’s are more product loyal than members. That is a no-brainer, but a good point to make.

The member/client rule states that an IBO has to have met one of the following criteria monthly in order to earn a bonus on downline volume.

1) Make not less than one sale to each of 10 different retail customers.
2) Have at least 50pv of sales to any number of retail customers.
3) Have $100 at member/client volume rule cost.

The 70% Rule states that an IBO must sell at least 70% of the products purchased monthly to downline IBO’s, members and clients. Products used for personal consumption, given out as samples, or used for demonstration are considered part of the sales volume and not part of the 30% an IBO is allowed to inventory.

Basically, IBO’s can’t inventory more than 30% of the products they buy monthly.

With these rules being noted, I believe that the company is doing a great job in promoting the retail aspect of the business, and we will see the volume in member/client sales rise significantly over the years to come. I believe that will become a bigger part of what each individual organization teaches. I know that the organization that I am part of is very focused on member/client volume and promotes reaching a 300pv center through these sales.

DMM, can you verify your statements like “there are currently 420,000 people buying Quixtar products”, and “the average IBO has .2 members/clients registered under them” for me? I have heard contradicting figures like there are as many as 750,000 registered members/clients/IBO’s and that many of the IBO’s who decide to quit actually downgrade their IBO business to a membership. Please clarify if you wish to continue this discussion.

Posted by: chris | September 24, 2004 3:06 AM

Chris:

We're running in circles here. You won't open your books and you won't acknowledge basic economics. If I can't point you in the right direction, they someone else is going to have to do it. I just hope you don't lose a bunch of $$$ in the process....

You said a lot of interesting (i.e. stupid) things here, so let me get back to you:

I think I have made my case clear unless you want to provide further evidence as to your claims.

Chris: When I shop at Costco how much do they pay me? When I spend $2.50 at Albertsons, Safeway, Wal-Mart, Starbucks, Blockbuster, or anywhere for that matter how much do they pay me?

H: They don't pay you, that's the point! They win your business based on price, place, product or promotion.

The money you save (by not laundering it through a pyramid) isn't physically given back to you--it stays right in your bank account. It's called opportunity cost. The money you save by not running it through
can be used in other ventures.

Chris: Bottom Line: No, I do not find anything strange about earning income by selling, consuming, promoting and advertising products to other clients, members and IBO’s.

Were you a big fan of XS before you joined Quixtar. No! It was pushed on you like the other substandard products (Glister anyone?) and you were persuaded (i.e. bullied) into trying it ("you wanna make your PV goal right?"). If you're not already doing it, you're going to push tapes/cds/function tickets. Would you seeks out these products before AmQuix? No! The Quixbots placed a need in you and you are now seeking to satisfy that need. It isn't a real or genuine need because it didn't exist before AmQuix's undue influence.

Chris: You will find that on many of their private label brands like XS Energy, Artistry Skin Care, Nutrilite and more d0 operate on full pv/bv...

Chris: Think about it. What exactly are Quixtar’s options when it comes to working out a compensation plan of each product?

H: Uh, I guess paying in dollars based on dollars spent. It is as plain as the nose on my face!

Chris: They can’t just do a flat percentage across the board, because it would be impossible to negotiate the same profit margin on a pair of Levi’s Jeans as they can on their own private branded line of Nutrilite Supplements.

H: So, why assume a flat percentage? Why isn't there a pro-rated incentive plan?
Have you bothered to think these questions out yourself, or have you just memorized what has been fed to you at your midnight "Night Owl" sessions?

Chris: Your last question was answered well by Ambivalent below, so there is no need for me to touch on it here.

I think Ambivalent caught the humor of the hyperbole, and I hope you did too. There is a sucker born every minute, which gives guys like you hope. Fortunately, blogs like this and guys like me will keep the ignorant masses from converting.

I hope this provides some insight to your Chris. You can attack the basic laws of Economics, but you're always going to lose.
I think Love&Rockets said it best, "you can't go against nature/because when you do/go against nature/that's part of nature too"

That's 'No New Tale to Tell'. I think that sums up the Amway business case in numerous ways!

Posted by: hartman | September 24, 2004 8:56 AM

The number of IBO's 30 years ago comes from the 1979 FTC Amway case, which states the number to be around 360,000. The number of Quixtar (formerly Amway North America) today comes from Quixtar itself, in forms of press releases and recent SA numbers. Sure Amway worldwide has more IBO's, but I'm just talking about North American Amway, which is now Quixtar, and the number of IBO's is still around 350,000. Sorry that I didn't clarify before.

Also, I don't know if you are confused, Chris, but I've known people who adamantly argue it is always better to get paid to shop, regardless of the math. They just don't understand that the money Quixtar pays them on their own purchases is akin to a rebate, with the difference being the rebate is actually taxed as income! I tell them bottom line price is what you should look at, and if something cost me $40 at Wal-Mart and a similar item $60 at Quixtar, even with a 25% "rebate", I'm still coming out ahead shopping at Wal-Mart. Again, I think you understand this Chris, but you did ask how much Costco pays you.

Posted by: dmm | September 24, 2004 10:49 AM

hartman wrote:
"What would the world be like if EVERYONE joined AmQuix, what kind of place would that be. Would your ideal lifestyle be so ideal?"

Ambivalent wrote:
"This had me LOL!, so thanks.
It boggles the mind to think about, really. What if EVERYONE did any one thing? It'd be a pretty dull place, IMO."

QBlog wrote:
"Everyone breathes... well except for Robots."

then hartman wrote:
"I think Ambivalent caught the humor of the hyperbole, and I hope you did too. There is a sucker born every minute, which gives guys like you hope. Fortunately, blogs like this and guys like me will keep the ignorant masses from converting."

QBlog, again your comments are cryptic and puzzling. If there's a private joke in there somewhere, please share it. Were you refering to Quixbots?

Here's what my thoughts were. I was thinking that if everyone were in Quixtar, the conversations might go like this:
Howdy neighbor, how ya doin'?
I'm doing great, my PV is up and the kids are guzzling that XS.
Yeah, me too. (smiling smugly) Great weather we're havin'.
Yeah, great day for prospecting. Where you headed today?
I'm off to some retirement community to make a pitch for glucosamine.
. . . and so it goes.

But you can make that same kind of parody with a caricature of any kind of profession. Just insert lawyers, morticians, doctors, insurance salesmen, used car salesmen, etc. and you have some pretty funny stuff.

But I have to say that I've heard some conversations in Quixtar that were remarkably similar to the one above. Only, no one was laughing.

Ambivalent

Posted by: Ambivalent | September 24, 2004 11:36 AM

Nope. When I refer to Quixbots I say Quixbots. I'm talking about robots, you know... the metal things that terrorize old people and small children. They don't breathe. They're machines.

You said, "What if EVERYONE did any one thing? It'd be a pretty dull place, IMO." Well, everyone breathes and this place ain't so dull. Except for those robots. LOOK OUT FOR ROBOTS!!! ;o)

Posted by: QBlog | September 24, 2004 1:27 PM

Where did Chris go, is he out shelling $100s for his weekend retreat?

Chris, when you get the chance, let us know more about you. Specifically these three questions:

1. How long you have been in AmQuix
2. # of people under you
3. Size of your last check

I think these are three fair questions, don't you. Maybe you can answer these questions with comfort--I know you don't want to show any detailed financial info.

Thanks!

Posted by: hartman | September 24, 2004 4:38 PM

QBlog wrote:
"Nope. When I refer to Quixbots I say Quixbots. I'm talking about robots, you know... the metal things that terrorize old people and small children. They don't breathe. They're machines."

No, actually I don't know. I've never seen a robot, except on a very rudimentary level. And I sure haven't seen one "terrorize old people and small children." Have you?

QBlog wrote:
"You said, "What if EVERYONE did any one thing? It'd be a pretty dull place, IMO." Well, everyone breathes and this place ain't so dull. Except for those robots. LOOK OUT FOR ROBOTS!!! ;o)"

I think everyone else in this string of comments understood that I was talking about careers as the "any one thing," not bodily functions. If I had to assume that everyone was working from zero context here, these comments would be very long indeed. Do you think that we might have some common basis for understanding based on context or do you feel a need for us to spell everything out from scratch?

Ambivalent

Posted by: Ambivalent | September 24, 2004 5:22 PM

Dude, no offense but you take this stuff WAAAAAYYY too seriously. Have a chuckle once in a while my Ambivalent friend.

http://www.robotcombat.com/video_oldglory_hi.html

There's your context friend. Plug in to popular culture and relax.

Posted by: QBlog | September 24, 2004 5:59 PM

QBlog wrote:
"Dude, no offense but you take this stuff WAAAAAYYY too seriously. Have a chuckle once in a while my Ambivalent friend.

http://www.robotcombat.com/video_oldglory_hi.html

There's your context friend. Plug in to popular culture and relax."

Right back atcha, buddy.

Ambivalent

Posted by: Ambivalent | September 24, 2004 7:07 PM

Ambivalent:

That was the lamest rebuttal ever. Congrats.

Anyone seen Chris? He has some questions to answer. I think he might be off doing his XS-fueled, holy-roller stroke-fest this weekend.

This overpriced event is brought to you by XS. XS: Fuel for today's robots!
(sorry, I couldn't resist)

Maybe Monday Chrisbot will come around....

Posted by: hartman | September 24, 2004 8:10 PM

I see. Well, in the immortal words of Frylock - "That's not a toy!"

Posted by: QBlog | September 24, 2004 9:32 PM

Hartman, why the personal attacks and name calling? Have I not taken the time to respond to questions in detail? 24 hours has not even passed and yet you have 2 extra posts that are asking where I am, and your rude comments in the last post make me not want to respond to any future questions you have.

I enjoy intelligent debates, and I am wrong sometimes, and I feel that I have been right many times as well, but when readers see comments like yours it devalues the conversation. Let’s recap our conversation.

C: When I shop at Costco how much do they pay me? When I spend $2.50 at Albertsons, Safeway, Wal-Mart, Starbucks, Blockbuster, or anywhere for that matter how much do they pay me? An IBO can buy a dozen cans of Cherry Blast XS Energy Drink for $20.40 that taste great, give them energy, are healthy for them and have zero carbs and only 8 calories in each can. At 25% back, an IBO will get paid over $5.00 just for purchasing the case of XS Drinks at a fair market value. I personally have several members and customers that love XS Energy Drinks, and I make a good profit off of retail sales from this product through my business.

H: They don't pay you, that's the point! They win your business based on price, place, product or promotion. The money you save (by not laundering it through a pyramid) isn't physically given back to you--it stays right in your bank account. It's called opportunity cost. The money you save by not running it through can be used in other ventures.

• Companies like Quixtar win business based on price, product and promotion as well, and with the internet, there is no geographical location, and so websites have a harder time developing loyalty through “place” and so they rely on other marketing techniques like building “community”. Costco chooses the business model of charging for memberships, saving their advertising costs, and passing a portion of their savings onto the consumer in the former of lower costing products, purchased in bulk. This business model is great and I think Costco will continue to grow.

• Quixtar has a similar business model where they charge for memberships, but they choose to pay the IBO’s to do the advertising, and to build the loyal community. If someone is shopping around for the best price on products, then Costco is a great place to save money. If you are looking for service then Nordstrom’s is pretty good, but you are going to pay top dollar for that service. If you are looking for good quality products at a reasonable cost, delivered to your door automatically on a schedule that you can set up yourself, with great customer service and a refund policy, then Quixtar is a great place to shop.

• The bottom line is that the other companies like Albertsons, Safeway, and Starbucks all “do” pay someone to do their advertising, so the only difference is that with Quixtar, the average individual can advertise for them and get paid for it, where it would be much harder to get paid right now for advertising Starbucks.

C: Bottom Line: No, I do not find anything strange about earning income by selling, consuming, promoting and advertising products to other clients, members and IBO’s.

H: Were you a big fan of XS before you joined Quixtar. No! It was pushed on you like the other substandard products (Glister anyone?) and you were persuaded (i.e. bullied) into trying it ("you wanna make your PV goal right?"). If you're not already doing it, you're going to push tapes/cds/function tickets. Would you seek out these products before Quixtar? No! The IBO’s placed a need in you and you are now seeking to satisfy that need…

• I was a big fan of energy drinks before I joined Quixtar, yes, and when I heard about XS Energy Drinks I was very excited. Energy Drinks are a huge trend, and I was glad that Quixtar positioned themselves well in front of that trend with a line-up of flavored energy drinks that were low in carbs and calories and tasted great. There was a need for that in the market, and Quixtar filled it. The XS line of products is very easy to retail and has increased member/client volume through my organization and all of Quixtar.

• Your assumption that the product was pushed on me, or that I was bullied into buying it is just false, and that kind of attitude is a misrepresentation for the way that products are promoted to other IBO’s in the organization.

• The Energy Drink market grew from $100,000,000 to more than $250,000,000 in just two years ending in the middle of 2002, and when we get updated statistics for 2004, we will see that Energy Drinks have made a huge impact on the United States and Globally. Red Bull is dominating the Global Market, but XS is quickly catching up to them in the North American market. http://www.xsgear.com/store/faqs.asp

• I am not “pushing” products/tapes/cds/function tickets, but I am promoting them to IBO’s that have a need for training and want to increase the size of their business. It is common for people to seek training in their field/business. Some of this training is free, like much of the information on the internet and individual mentorship, and some costs money, like books, cd’s, seminars, and consultants.

• I have a friend that is a Doctor and he pays thousands of dollars for him and his employees to go to seminars and he usually buys thousands of dollars worth of training materials when he is there, but his practice is one of the most successful around because of that. Many successful business owners give the opposite advice that you do, so I choose to get my business-building advice from them.

H: “Why does Quixtar deal in PV, why not work on dollar amount, so everyone can understand”?

C: You will find that on many of their private label brands like XS Energy, Artistry Skin Care, Nutrilite and more they do operate on the full dollar amount. The XS example I gave above is an example of a core line product that has full pv/bv and so you will get paid a percentage of the dollar amount you spend, based on the level you are at in the business. So your question must be directed at the Non-Private label branded products that Quixtar offers like Sony, Levis, Kellogg’s and even partner stores and services like Circuit City, Barnes & Noble, and MCI.

Think about it. What exactly are Quixtar’s options when it comes to working out a compensation plan of each product? They can’t just do a flat percentage across the board, because it would be impossible to negotiate the same profit margin on a pair of Levi’s Jeans as they can on their own private branded line of Nutrilite Supplements. And since the amount of profit they are able to negotiate on each of these non-private label branded products is different, they needed to develop another system to track profit, so a point system makes much more sense.

If all Quixtar offered was their own core-line products, similar to companies like Passport, then it would be easy to do away with the pv/bv system and just have a flat rate, but Quixtar is able to offer hundreds of thousands of additional products by implementing this point system. If you would rather work for a company that just has a flat profit rate per product, then you should check into Passport, (if you are not already joined), but they won’t be able to even come close to the quantity, quality and diversity of the product line that Quixtar has to offer.

H: So, why assume a flat percentage? Why isn't there a pro-rated incentive plan? Have you bothered to think these questions out yourself, or have you just memorized what has been fed to you at your midnight "Night Owl" sessions?

• Hartman, my answer to you was an intelligent one that answers the question with the limited information I have. If you want to know more about Quixtar’s choice for using a point system to determine profit, then ask them yourself. I gave you my perspective, which I did not receive from some “Midnight Night Owl” session, but because you and I are similar in that we are both analytical, I wondered that when I first got started, and so I researched it myself and this is what I came up with.

H: Chris, when you get the chance, let us know more about you. Specifically these three questions:

1. How long you have been in AmQuix
2. # of people under you
3. Size of your last check

• I have never been in “AmQuix”. Not even sure what that is. I assume you mean Quixtar. I am a business owner and have been self employed for several years. One of the companies that my business does advertising and builds community for is Quixtar. I have been advertising for them since they launched, beginning around January of 2000.

• Again, you use slang for the next question. There could be many answers for this. If we are talking about independent contractors that I work with, then the answer would be hundreds. I am not sure what you are asking exactly. It is not clear enough. Quixtar is one of the companies that I receive a check from. I am not “in” Quixtar. One of my businesses is an advertising company, and one of the companies that it does advertising for is Quixtar. There are several independent contractors involved with the business.

• Again, you come after me wanting to see checks. I have told you now in several responses where I stand on this issue, and yet you still persist. My business receives checks from several different companies, one of them is Quixtar. I run a profitable business, and my check was much greater than the overhead costs it took to receive that check.

Hartman, I am open to posting comments on this site when I can, but personal information about me, my business, my los, and so forth, I refuse to put out there to all of you for your criticism. If I change my mind then I will email it to QBlog so that he will consider me for the Quixtar Backbone Project. Save your questions for someone like Bo Short, who also refuses to answer questions like how many distributors are currently in Passport and how well his company is doing financially. To the best of my knowledge, he won’t release those numbers even to people he is trying to recruit. I am not trying to recruit anyone here and I have already pre-qualified you and you don’t qualify for my business [|:)+<

Posted by: chris | September 24, 2004 10:41 PM

Chris: Are you an IBO in any of the Alticor companies or not? I am unsure due to the ambiguity in your latest post.

After that, we can breakdown the faulty logic in your posts above. So many faults, so many other people to save.

Get back to me though, okay?
Night-night...

Posted by: hartman | September 25, 2004 12:00 AM

Hartman, yes, I have an independent business that does advertising for Quixtar.

Posted by: chris | September 25, 2004 3:04 AM

Chris,

Can you tell us the name of your business and specifically what it is you do for Quixtar? As we've all been told, Quixtar does not do advertise, which is why they have so much money to give back to their IBOs.

Also, when were you hired by Quixtar? Who hired you (Quixtar Corporate or IBOAI or someone else)? Is posting here part of your job? Are you being paid to post here?

Posted by: QBlog | September 25, 2004 8:29 AM

Chris, if you're not an IBO, can you explain this statement?

"Hartman, I have doctors, lawyers, and many business owners in my organization. None of these individuals have asked to see my personal financial statements before starting up their own Independent Business Powered by Quixtar."

That seems to indicate that you are an IBO. Thanks for your explanation. The quoted comment came from the first BackBone entry.

Posted by: QBlog | September 25, 2004 4:21 PM

Excellent point QBlog!
I can't wait to hear from Chrisbot!

Posted by: hartman | September 25, 2004 5:35 PM

QBlog, of course I am an IBO. I was asked if I was "in" Quixtar. As far as I know, the only people "in" Quixtar are it's employees. I have my own independent business that is powered by Quixtar, that does advertising for Quixtar, and their products and services.

You took my terminology way out of context buddy. I may not have the best legal terminology, and I apologize if it was confusing for you. A business can be set up using many different structures, for example, LLC's, LP's, Corporations, etc. IBO's should consult their accountant and their upline to determine which business structure might be the best for them. And as far as I know, legally they do not even need to set up a business structure, but for me it made the most sense.

So I answered those questions, as they were directed towards me. Each IBO may have a different answer based on their business structure, and depending on that structure, they may receive income for that business from multiple sources or just one.

I am not willing to give out my personal or business information over the internet at this point, and so I hope you can respect that. I hope that this has answered your questions and cleared up your confusion.

BTW, good post about whether or not Quixtar advertises. I am glad that people are asking those questions, and I hope you take the time to call them up and find out for yourself what their response it to the Adwords campaign, but I wasn't expecting you to quote me in the way you did without first asking for clarification over something you misunderstood.

But then again, it's your blog and you can do what you want to do.

Posted by: chris | September 26, 2004 12:49 AM

(Posting under pseudonym; as I write this, my upline Platinum with whom I have not corresponded in months just e-mailed me! LOL)
Hi everyone. I am not the first to "pull back the covers" by any means, but it is amazing to me how many people still cannot see MLM businesses or many other business for what they actually are. I am still a Quixtar IBO but would be considered "inactive" in the Britt System. I started with Amway in December 1996. My Quixtar business is now slightly profitable (as in NET, not GROSS, profit!), but I work Quixtar on a very passive basis because I have found another much more profitable non-MLM (real) business in which I now focus my time and which I enjoy much, much more. My "independent" Quixtar business is profitable because I do not waste any more money on all those tools, books and functions that actually make a few others more money in 3 months than I have EVER made in Quixtar myself! I did pull out some success concepts from the Amway/Quixtar business that I have applied in my past in sales and in my other business to this day, and honestly I do think that involvement in such a business kept me out of trouble when I had moved to a new town where I had great difficulty making new contacts unlike where I live now. I stuck with my Quixtar business mostly through October 1999 after the very disappointing launch of Quixtar in September 1999, and then occasionally through February 2002. The money I spent on my Quixtar business in all the "tools" surely could have been spent better elsewhere, but I probably would not have found a better place to spend it at the time to be honest. I say "real" when I refer to the Quixtar or any other MLM business I have seen because when you break it down, to understand the profitability of any business, you have to understand the actual flow of cash. Please do not miss as many will that I am not talking about simply the AMOUNT of money flowing, but WHERE the money goes! It was not until 2002, after I had become an "inactive" IBO already, that I started to take notice of some of the postings on various MLM review sites and took notice in the Quixtar and many other businesses, including those proposed on many late-night, that the real business beyond the marketing on TV or otherwise for such businesses is actually information marketing. Most compelling were the postings of former Diamond Bo Short, a non-Britt diamond whose tape I had heard and for whom I have immense admiration and respect though I have never met him. www.formerdiamond.com www.amquix.info and www.mlmsurvivor.com are other great sites with accurate information in large part. It was always implied to me and other Britt IBOs that the money for books and tapes in the Britt system did not fill some people's pockets at the expense of the masses. And of course that is also how Quixtar was supposedly "different" and "more honourable" than other MLMs that I had investigated prior to Quixtar! How gullible was I as were as well many others! As I explain below, when you study the flow of cash, the MLMs are ALL the same in that regard! It was only in 2002 that I understood why so many of the "pins" involved had left the business (and any income from it) behind for a rational reason instead of "doing something strange" as had been implied previously. In 1998, after the first internet postings took place and after some legal action against some of the big pins, we were given the BSMAA to sign to show that we understand that the purchase of such "tools" was indeed optional, as we had been told all along. In addition, it was disclosed openly that speakers at events were compensated for expenses as well as received a small honorarium (to which I certainly did not object given the affordability of such meetings). The BSMAA agreement was simply to protect the interests of the kingpins in the Quixtar business. These businesses, MLM or otherwise, make their real money selling informational products such as books, tapes, CDs, events, et cetera by getting people to sign up under the guise of purchase of a cheap lead product. It does not matter if the product is a "financial success kit", a "startup kit", vitamins, a package of books and tapes, et cetera. All that matters is selling something that people will buy at first. This is basic sales 101 for just about any business -- obtain the client by offering a cheap initial product and then make your greater profit by devoting more of your effort to continuing to market to your existing client base. When you respond to any late-night TV ad, the company basically knows you are living and breathing and have a valid credit card. Then of course, they will upsell you and sell your name to others who will sell and upsell you. In Quixtar and every MLM I have seen, you are brought into the business and then upsold the more profitable informational products after you are involved. Big deal -- same thing happens when you go to any sporting event or concert. However, in MLM your upline "works with" you to give them your "list" of names of prospects for free when you sign up. Why would any sane businessperson sell a list of names for free? Just about any list of qualified names is worth something! Of course your upline states that they will help you build prospects out of that list. Maybe they will, maybe they will not, but in the end it is win-win for your upline. All they care about is how much of the mud they can get to stick on the wall at the end of the day, and the more free names you give them the greater chance that some will stick to the wall and that those people will refer them to others! The list of prospects is power! And to be successful in MLM (and just about any other business) you will adopt the same attitude at sometime down the road, but perhaps not necessarily in such a ruthless fashion as we observe in many MLMs or late-night TV informercials.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with making a profit selling informational products of course or upselling your clients. The problem with Quixtar and many of these businesses, MLM or otherwise, is that such incomes are derived under false premises not disclosed upfront in presentations. How many fewer people would even get involved in Quixtar or any MLM or buy from late night ads if they knew the real money business behind the businesses and the degree to which they will be marketed (or exploited) for the real money? For those who doubt the greater profitability of the "secret" business behind the Quixtar (products and services) business, just study the various sites like www.amquix.info and www.formerdiamond.com and or better yet just do some basic math. And ask yourself, "Do the IBOs making a cut of the profits on the sales of non-Quixtar products have to split ANY of the money from such sales with Quixtar itself?" NO! But the bonuses on the sale of products are paid AFTER the money is received first by Quixtar and according to the bonus schedule. Anytime you can get the flow of cash coming to you first from the sale of products, you will always have more profit than if you are a dealer or middleman of such products. Only those IBOs who attain Platinum and beyond get a cut of the "tools" profits in the Quixtar business, and many diamonds were kicked out when they started to advocate a more equitable opportunity for ALL IBOs. However, that would have exposed the pyramid and the kingpins or Amway/Quixtar themselves, who have been aware of the more profitable secret business for 25 years now, could not bear to deal with the legal pressure that would arise from such an ethical disclosure to all IBOs. So much for "Compassionate Capitalism" HA! Such deceptive practices are simply gospel to those who think pure capitalism can do no wrong, yet a mockery to all those who realise that any ideology can be abused and must have defined limits, be they legal, moral and/or ethical. :-)

Posted by: Paolo X | October 3, 2004 2:26 PM

You keep asking why they use PV and not dollars.

When the business plan first started, it was just PV and 1point was equal to $1. In order to account for inflation and to not have to change the point scale, BV was added, BV is loosely based on dollars spent and is merely the adjustor for inflation.

Posted by: Joe | February 2, 2005 12:06 AM

I have been attempting to build a business powered by Quixtar since 2001.
I found one of the first posts here to be confusing. Quixmire stated: "Be sure you treat your business like a business - which means watching your profitability and costs. If after another 9 months or so you're still not NETTING a good income PER HOUR of effort, it's time to step back and do some serious thinking."
Most people that I have met and interviewed, both for my team and for my own personal growth, stated that their "real business" didn't net a profit for five years! If you are netting a profit in 9 months, you definately have something good.
When I became submissive, and started doing what my trainers taught, my business started making a profit. In the five years that I have been independantly contracted, I have learned that one out of every 20 people who join our group actually go out and share the opportunity with another person, and that would be why hartman sees the "average" numbers being so low, and naturally make the assumption that we are "saturated".
The first thing I learned about in Econ 101 was that the law of supply and demand is actually a theory and not a law, because there are cases where the law is broken. (Drive-up coffee for example.)
I agree with Hartman, if you find a business model that actually does what he has stated, STAY AWAY from that business!
And how do you know? How do you ever know a person or group? Talk with them, meet with them, ask them directly! Don't go to some web-site where any angry person could post!

Posted by: DayLight | February 11, 2006 7:03 AM

Hi I have a question for the owner of this site:
What is your intent for the people who view this site?
Is it to have them think what you think?
My apologies if I'm wrong but you come across with a negative attitude about quixtar and it's development system.
With the average typical person's mindset been shaped by society.
Being a form of brainwashing if you will.
If people who are in a quixtar business are brainwashed to get what they want; why is that any better or worse to the system of society?
Also any fool with a 56k modem can post anything on the web.
How does these discussions have any consistency and credibilty with trueful feedback?

Posted by: Boy from OZ | January 31, 2007 9:12 AM