Quixtar Backbone Project - Entry One

I find it interesting that Susan finds Quixtar critics "uninformed or slightly misinformed, or out of date with their information". Next month, my site will have been up on the Internet for one year and to this day, I have never had a single person provide evidence showing that any post is inaccurate. I get a lot of "Quixtar can't be a scam because they work with (insert name brand here) and I get a lot of (insert motivational system name here) is differnt.

I certainly wish Susan luck and hope for the sake of the great people that are losing money every month that Quixtar is making the right moves.

Posted by: MLMBlog | September 15, 2004 7:26 PM

She did say "many" and not "all" critics. Just pointing that out.

Posted by: QBlog | September 15, 2004 8:07 PM

I think what Susan's talking about are the web sites. As I've stated before (and in other places), Web sites tend to be more static than weblogs.

(Yes, my website is based on old information. That is by design, as when the websites were big I saw my site as a flling in information on the past that wasn't covered by the other sites.)

Posted by: Don | September 15, 2004 8:13 PM

Let me give Susan some info about Quixtar/Amway.Because I have 16 years experience it might help her.

1.2 SOT for 16 years.
2.BOM for 16 years.
3.All functions and meetings for 16 years.
4.Averaged 100 to 200 pv every month for 16 years.
5.Sponsored over 25 people personally over 16 years.
6.On voice mail whole time it was available.

After all this i quit this year.The majority of info on Internet is true.Down to 1 customer and 5 in my group.Running 200 to 300 pv most of it mine.I am not a loser.I manage a store doing over 5 million a year and we make a six figure income.Where are the Quixtar Diamonds that have come just out of Quixtar not old "Amway Distributors."The 2 to 5 year plan is a lie.In my past organization no one went Diamond in 16 years and my Upline Triple Diamond is one of the top 4 Kingpins.I have never seen B.Florence break a Diamond in 16 years?Does anyone know if he has?

Posted by: Ray | September 15, 2004 9:17 PM

I appreciate the "backbone" project very much. Excellent concept.

Sharon definitely highlighted the many intangible benefits of the business. The fact is that, the many innocent, hardworking IBO's that are in the business do have a positive attitude and a commeraderie around them that is commendable. Many of these traits are excellent, despite the fact that they seem to almost solely benefit the higher level pins.

Most of the critical websites are very well informed and deadly accurate. I think the challenge lies in the responsibility issue. If you have signed a BSMAA and continue to lose money by purchasing tools, without regard to the bottom line, then the responsibility for that mistake lies squarely with you. To blame anyone else makes one powerless to make the necessary changes to rectify the situation. Perhaps this is what Sharon means when she says "uninformed".

Posted by: Evan | September 15, 2004 11:02 PM

Ray,

Billy Florence has broken one diamond in all the time he's been in Amway/Quixtar. He's been in since 1979 and went diamond himself in 1985. Steve and Elaine Gardner went diamond in 1994. They are inactive but qualified as Q12's. So, it took him 9 years as a diamond before he broke a diamond, and he hasn't broken another in the 10 years since. Gotta love the 2-5 year plan! :)

Posted by: Doug_G | September 16, 2004 9:26 AM

If you read into the post, it sounds like the husband does the finances, so I wonder if Sharon knows how profitable her business is or not. It also says that Sharon sells retail, which is important, and that Quixtar is not their primary income, but a source of secondary, extra income.

And personally I have no problem with people who run their business this way. It's what Amway/Quixtar was intended to be for most of the people who worked it. And while I would prefer to see the whole AmQuix scam end, I think if this and other blogs/websites can move IBO's back to Jay and Rich's original intent of selling items to end customers and that dreambuilding "buy from yourself" scammers no longer have power, then that is more then acceptable too. I'm just a little pessimistic that this will never happen, because as long as there is AmQuix, there will be people willing to run the same old scam they have been doing for 25 years.

Posted by: dmm | September 16, 2004 1:26 PM

Most of the negative criticisms of Quixtar IBO’s and teams ultimately come down to the tool system and profits. But here is the reality…

1) The System/Tools are helpful in building a Quixtar-Affiliated Independent Business (as well as optional and refundable)
2) There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a profit margin on tools/materials sold. In fact it makes more sense to have a profit margin than to not have one.
3) It makes sense to profit share with the tool manufacturer and distributors, and the compensation plans for this, while they do vary, are mostly very fair.

Posted by: chris | September 16, 2004 2:11 PM

DMM,

You are right on with your comments. It's amazing how a fantastic business opportunity got so corrupted over the years. Something as simple as strictly enforcing the 10 client rule (if that's possible), or modifying it to make it clear that legitimate retailing must be done would scare off a lot of people, but at the same time, change the nature of the business entirely, in my opinion, legitimizing it in a big way.

As for Chris.....I'm sure many others reading this have a word or two for you, because, frankly, as much as I support education in enhancing one's business skills, I think you are ignorant to the magnitude of the damage caused by these "tools".

and just to clarify....is it "reality" or "your reality?"
Sidenote: I'm certain that if the choice of subscribing for "Tools" were done in a manner that upline IBO's had no knowledge of whether or not you were on the "system", you'd see a very significant drop in the number of people on it.

Posted by: Evan | September 16, 2004 3:13 PM

Evan,

Depending on which organization you are involved with, you may or may not know who is on tools in your group. If you are personally handling tool distribution to your team, then you might have an accurate count. If you are using a company like Internet-Services for direct tool fulfillment, you may not be aware. I have a number of people on standing order tools on a weekly subscription. I have access to find out exactly who, but I could not honestly give you an answer right now as to how many in my team were on the system, because I do not know. I probably should, but I have never taken the time to figure it out, yet I have not seen a decline in the numbers, only a growing increase. I promote the system because it truly helps people succeed. I have seen IBO’s who were not on the system and those who were, and from my personal experience, the ones who have been plugged into the system have had better results.

There is much speculation here on the internet, but I am in the daily grind of the business and see a different view. I have not come across someone who has thought the tools were not helpful to them, or that they were too expensive. And I have not met someone that has had a problem with profit sharing on the tools as well. On the internet you can create drama around this, but most people do not feed into your drama and do not have a problem with this. For the most part it is normal business practice.

Why do you say I am ignorant to the damage being caused by the tools. They are good tools at a good price, that help people build their business and enhance their personal life. There is a profit sharing opportunity with these tools as you excel in the business that provides individuals additional streams of income. That is great. When the business plan is shown, it is shown using Quixtar Corporate Approved average incomes at the different levels in the business. The only other legal statements of income are someone’s personal income they have generated from the business. If an IBO is not showing a business plan using these numbers, then they should submit their business plan to Quixtar Corporate for approval. These numbers do not include potential system profits which some organizations choose to participate in. Here are a few examples.
Quixtar U.S. Average Incomes for 2003:

Founders Emerald: $95,493.
Founders Diamond: $275,102.
Founders EDC & up: $746,122

The bottom line is that tool fulfillment companies like Internet-Services and others could choose to keep all the profits generated, but they don’t because a smarter business model would be to pay out a portion of the profits to IBO’s that move large quantities of tools. It would make sense that profit-sharing should start at a level like platinum, and then the higher quantities of tools you move, the more opportunity for income there would be. A logical way to set this up would be to pay based on both pin-level and total quantity moved. So the higher pin-level you are, the higher percentage you receive off of the total quantity of tools moved through the community you have built.

I am thankful for the system, as it has helped me grow as a person in several different areas of my life. I would recommend to people that they read positive/motivational books, and that they listen to audio tapes/cd’s from successful people in their industry, and that they attend conferences when they can for personal development. Whether or not they decide to build their own Independent Business Powered by Quixtar.

Posted by: chris | September 16, 2004 5:54 PM

I too liked this first entry in the project. It would also be great to find out what Susan thinks about the tool system and whether Susan thinks that their group is creating enough retail to be legitimate for all legs of the business. Since the advent of Quixtar, the retailing rule applies to everyone, not just the directs (Platinums) as it did under Amway since Quixtar ships directly to everyone.
But I'm fascinated by this first entry.

Ambivalent

Posted by: Ambivalent | September 16, 2004 6:05 PM

Chris,

The tools are a scam. They are advertised to the IBO's as being the way to achieve success in Quixtar. Their success rate is abyssmal. Less than 1% of IBO's reach platinum and less than 1% of those platinums reach diamond. That's pathetic.

You can grow as a person without those tapes/cds and functions. Books are useful, but you can borrow those form the library. The tools systems are only good for one thing, and that is putting money in the diamonds' pockets.

If the tapes are so great, how have they helped your business? How long have you been in, and what was your last Quixtar bonus check?

Posted by: Doug_G | September 16, 2004 8:42 PM

Backbone? I didn't think the Quixbots had their spines???

Seriously though, as Chris was promoting the material wealth in his post, he forgets to mention one thing: Net Income. The numbers he are showing are gross.

Take out the business expenses, and the cost of insurace and health care--what do you have--you have net income. And guess what? Those net income #s aren't so great vs. a regular JOB (and there is not pressuring friends/family).

So even the Emerald's net income isn't that great, and the majority of Quixbots don't even make it to Emerald...sounds great....someone remove my spine and get me started!!!

Posted by: hartman | September 16, 2004 9:54 PM

You guys are funny, I like the backbone project and will keep reading. Its obviously working for Chris, Sharon and me too. I retired my jobs in five years(into the business) as Q12 platinum but I have people in my group that did the same in a year and a half and starting emerald qualification.

My point is the 2-5 yr plan is a guide line and example according to the 6-4-2. You can move as fast or as slow as you want.

Ruby Meyers took two years to go Double Diamond so you are right when you say so much for two to five years.

So all these companies like Barnes & Nobles, Circuit City etc, signed up for the scam.

People can get on or off standing order at anytime! its up to the individual to decide the benefit. As a jobbot I could't even set my own hours.

Quixtar has alot of benefits, but the more I listen to you critics, the more I thank God for my upline who have helped me break 10++ platinums in my organization and helped me retire my job in my twenties.

The person who says it can't be done is usually interrupted by the the GUY who did it...

EXCUSE ME

pj

Posted by: pj | September 17, 2004 12:05 AM

Doug,

In response to your statement that "Less than 1% of IBO's reach platinum and less than 1% of those platinum’s reach diamond" That is an unfair statistic because many of those IBO's choose to not do any work, and many choose to do a minimal amount of work in their own business. To get an accurate statistic, you should track IBO's that plug into the business support team and training system, show 15 plans per month, consistently, and work with their upline mentor on a game plan to get them where they want to be. That statistic would be much, much higher, and more realistic.

If your argument is that it takes 100 people for an IBO to go platinum, well that is just silly, because if you study business at all, you would know that most business operates under very similar stats. In fact, our statistics are much better than almost any other industry. The average founders Diamond makes over $200,000 per year, not including system profits, and if built correctly, like it should be, that business is residual and does not take much time, if any, to keep it growing. It can be built incorrectly as well, where the Diamond may need to stay active, but many Diamonds have a residual income and a nice lifestyle. It can also be built where IBO’s sell products and gain member volume to have higher personal volumes, and if you had a team of 25 IBO’s, doing 300pv each, you could go platinum. Those 25 IBO’s could be structured in 3 groups, so that the profits from that community are more evenly divided up, and you could retain more IBO’s by building depth in those teams, because new IBO’s would be coming on board every month in each of those organizations, and people rarely quit a business that is growing. The way the money is divided up in that community is very fair, based on the contribution you had towards building and training that community. So if I were one of the 25 that helped my upline go platinum, and I registered, say 5 people, then I would not expect to earn to much income from that. Maybe I would just be breaking even on my investment or so, but I would be getting paid fairly for my contribution.

Can you show me an example of another industry where I can earn a six-figure residual income that has better statistics than our business? I am sure there is something out there, but this business could probably stand up to it any day.

You CAN grow as a person without those tapes/cd’s and functions, but most people do not have access or are not aware of the information to help them grow in this way, plus, I have read and heard a lot throughout my life, and I have never come across a personal development program better than this training system. Books are useful, and I have borrowed them form the library, as well as bought them from borders books, borrowed from friends, and subscribed to them through our training system. Why would anyone have a problem with me or anyone else personally developing ourselves to improve and become better people?

You said that "The tools systems are only good for one thing, and that is putting money in the diamonds' pockets". That is just an ignorant statement. The tools are very useful, and of course someone is making profit off of them, but why would I not continue to use them if they help me. And why would I not promote them if I saw them helping my business partners and friends. And why would I buy them from borders or amazon.com and help the founders of those companies get rich, when I could buy them from our business support team, so that more money is available to go into creating better tools and more materials.

If you start up a small business, you make money by leveraging your employees, and in most cases they never get the chance to get wealthy themselves, but the business owner does. Is this fair? Yes, because the owner to the risk up-front and invested the capital and time. The same way that a diamond might invest time and energy up-front to develop a system to help out other IBO's to build their businesses. The diamond might even lose money on the system for a long period of time, but then hopefully eventually they begin to make a profit, and as long as the prices stay reasonable, hopefully the profit is good for those that participate in it.

The tapes are great and if I need help contacting, I can get a tape that teaches contacting techniques. If I need to learn some sales and marketing techniques there are tools available to teach that. If I am short on time, there are tools to help me leverage my time, like videos/dvd’s to train new IBO's and answer questions, if I don't have the time to. I have personally developed so much from the system that I constantly get complimented from those that have known me for a while and have seen positive changes. Priceless would be a good word to describe that benefits I have received from the training system.

As for the last question, I think that it is out of line. It would be like me asking you what your personal income was. If I were trying to recruit you into a business with me, then I might state that information to you, but I am not throwing personal info around on the web, and you shouldn’t either. To give you an idea so that you have a ballpark of who you are talking with, last year I made a 5 figure income from my business powered by Quixtar. I took full advantage of tax write-offs, So obviously my net looks significantly lower than my gross, but I am very excited about the income I generated, and I am well compensated for the time I put in. My goal is to qualify as an Emerald by Aug 31st 2005 and based on the growth involved, and the bonus checks for that growth, it would put me at the 6 figure income bracket with my own business.

So let me ask you. If you had a goal to achieve financial freedom in the next 5 years, and that was your dream and you were totally motivated, what vehicle would you use to achieve it? Or do you believe that it is not possible?

Posted by: chris | September 17, 2004 3:56 AM

Hartman,

You mentioned that the figures I threw up here on the comments were gross and not net figures, and so even emeralds incomes isn't that great. I find that hard to believe. Let's compare Emerald to someone making a similar sized gross income from a job.

If we over-estimate the costs of an Emerald's overhead, I think that $1000/mo would be a reasonable investment. You could run your business overhead on much less than that, but we will go with that example.

The tax write-offs alone from owning your own business would cover those costs and more, but in a job, you don't get the same tax benefits.

The other significant difference is that the Emeralds that I know have a high degree of time freedom as well. They are always going on vacation, or staying home and raising their kids, both mom and dad, and so on, where the average guy at a job making that much money, is usually has a much lower degree of time freedom with his income.

So I would disagree and say that the Emerald income is great, and that is not even including any potential system profit that might exist for that emerald.

Posted by: chris | September 17, 2004 4:10 AM

Chris said:

" you should track IBO's that plug into the business support team and training system, show 15 plans per month, consistently, and work with their upline mentor on a game plan to get them where they want to be. That statistic would be much, much higher, and more realistic."

I say:

What is that statistic? Please share the information.

Posted by: QBlog | September 17, 2004 6:40 AM

I too would like to see the statistics for how "successful" this system is. The people I met who were involved in the system didn't seem to be having much success.

You assertion about building your "business" (read pyramid) correctly results in residual (the new word is "on-going") income. How can that be possible when the number of IBOs has been stagnant since 1970? There are 340,000 IBOs in the US and Canada. There were 320,000-360,000 US Amway IBOs back in the 1970s. This means that as some groups grow, others are shrinking. Quixtar has reached a saturation point. IBOs are leaving as fast as they join. Today your business may rise, but tomorrow it will fall as someone else's takes off. On-going or residual income without your effort is a myth.

I don't think the question about how long you've been involved and what was your last bonus check is out of line at all. Maybe it would be out of line if I asked for your schedule C (unless you were recruiting me and then I would insist on seeing the schedule C). You are promoting a business and a tool system and the best you've come up with so far is that the tools have made you a better person. Being a better person is not why people get into business. People get into business to make money. If you can't show real results, then it's not a real business.

You indicate you are making a profit. That's good, a business should. What percentage of your downline is making a profit? If you don't know, then maybe you should find out. If your group isn't retailing (selling products to customers who aren't IBOs), then that means they are losing money so that you can make money. A real leader would not let his group languish while he did well.

Finally, if the business is so great and gives people so much time and money, why have so many platinums, rubies, and diamonds left the business?

Posted by: Doug_G | September 17, 2004 7:59 AM

Actually, the number of IBOs has declined when compared to the general population growth of Canada and the United States. Just like inflation, the population grows and the current numbers must be adjusted for that growth. So, look at the 1970 IBO population as a percentage of the U.S. population and look at it now as a percentage of the U.S. population. That's a significant decline, not stagnation.

Posted by: QBlog | September 17, 2004 8:52 AM

You are right, Qblog. I was just trying to give the IBOs the best scenario possible. It's an even worse decline when you consider the numbers from the 70's were the US IBOs only. Quixtar's 340,000 includes Canadian IBOs. I would love to see the numbers broken out for each country.

Isn't it odd that Quixtar is only in 2 countries (US and Canada)? Why do you suppose they formed Quixtar rather than just having Amway go online? I guess name recognition isn't always a good thing. :)

Posted by: Doug_G | September 17, 2004 9:01 AM

Chris, it is appropriate for us to ask for you validate your business claims. You are making an argument for your business (not your personal life) and we are asking for some proof. A simple question would be did you claim a profit or a loss on your Schedule C last year? And what about the year before, and do you know what the IRS can do to people who claim losses on Schedule C's year after year?

Second, how much retail do you do, Chris? What percentage of your PV/BV comes from you, your downline and your members/clients? What about your downline numbers? Basically, I want to know where your bonus check originates from. Does it come from your wallet? Your downline's? Members and clients? And did you know, Chris, that if the majority of your check comes from you and your downline and not members/clients, you are running a "negative pyramid" where collectively you are spending more money on product purchases then you make collectively in bonuses? And did you know these schemes are illegal?

You are a big proponent of the tools, Chris, and I agree that they can have positive benefits. But are they truly helping you and your downline make a profit? After all, that is what being in business is all about, not about becomming a better person. There is a reason only 1 in about 240 people ever go platinum, and 1 in 13,000 ever go diamond, and it isn't because the majority people are lazy or don't want to build the business. It is because the big pins make significantly more money on tools then they do on Quixtar, and the system is designed to keep the carrot firmly a few feet in front of low level IBO's, so they keep chasing it and spend more and more money on tools. Sure a few people might be allowed to grab the carrot as "proof," but there is a reason why in 30 years, the number of IBO's have remained stagnant while the population has boomed.

Posted by: dmm | September 17, 2004 10:38 AM

Hey Chris,

I've read the comments and I want to credit you for having the gones to put up a post.
DMM is very accurate in what he is saying and the questions he posed were questions that I, too, would love for you to answer.
On the flipside, in your defence, I saw in someone's post that 1 in 240 make Platinum. This is not a great indicator of performance as it takes a good 100 people in a person's downline (from an observational perspective) for one to go platinum.Obviously the stats could never be 1 in 1 unless the person retailed 7500 by himself. (Unfair stat to use)
Secondly, I do think tools making you a better person is absolutely necessary in helping you with a business such as this. However, after listening to hundreds of them myself, I can only be disappointed by the poor quality of the majority of the tapes. Few of them are tapes worth keeping. (I'm sure that you must feel that way about some of them) I completely reject your assumption that many of these tools add great value to your business, even from a duplication standpoint.

Posted by: Evan | September 17, 2004 11:16 AM

PJ,

When will you be submitting your backbone entry?

Posted by: mlmblog | September 17, 2004 1:30 PM

"I think the people in the business have many good attributes that I would like my children to emulate, specifically the integrity, work ethic and focus I see around me...I believe Quixtar is making many right moves and will overcome much of its negative history. "

Is anyone else having a problem with this? It's really sticking in my craw.

Posted by: Porkchopjim | September 17, 2004 2:21 PM

Porkchopjim,

I am not bothered by this comment in the least bit. In general, many of the people in the business are hardworking, decent people with regular jobs or businesses who have the ambition to do more for themselves, and their families. Strip them of their business hype and they are average people. Many do, in fact, have a solid work ethic and remain focused. Many of the people in the business, whether they are teachers, doctors, accountants, etc are people of integrity. Let's not confuse everyone with the guilty few who are manipulating everyone else for profit.

And yes, Quixtar has made a lot of very good moves to improve their business and the way they are portrayed. They are major contributors to many charities, and have obviously won many awards. However, as long as the greedy few, who lack integrity, run the lines of sponsorship, there will be no possible way of overcoming its negative history.

I am not an active IBO nor do I intend to ever be, but by virtue of attending some of the informal events ocassionally, and having friendships with many of the honest people in the business, I can only say that your feelings are based on a bad experience. (Not to say that this is good or bad, considering a lot of people, including myself have had some very crappy experiences with the so-called "leaders" in this business)

Posted by: Evan | September 17, 2004 3:17 PM

PJ:

How long have you been in the business?
How many people are under you?
How much was your last check?

Three simple questions, three simple answers. It is put-up or shut-up time!

While you're at it, attach a scanned tax return showing your income from 'the business'. You can block out all private and/or non-pertienent info.

You talk a big game, let's see you back it up....

Posted by: Hartman | September 17, 2004 3:34 PM

Where's the pinko, commie, liberal talk? What, no one is going to falsely accuse someone about their sexual preference?

Oh, that's right, this is a discussion of issues, and it's awesome.

Chris, I don't agree with many things you've said, but I sure want to thank you for articulating your experience and point of view.

I personally gained much from the tool system. The only thing I didn't get was profits. Unfortunately, that's really what we were after. We had some success by reaching Silver, but the house of cards crumbled down as the products were overpriced and the overhead (the system) was stifling to generating a profit.

The question really is how much value is in the Quixtar business. If you find that the retail prices are reasonable and the fruit of success is in the system for you and your down line, then go for it. I think by the numbers of people who don't renew or ever show a profit might show that most disagree.

Posted by: Kendall | September 17, 2004 4:00 PM

Regarding the quote I have problems with:

There is a fundamental contradiction there: This is a good thing because of the people in it, and I want more people in it to learn from the others…versus…This business has a negative history. (Note: not an undeserved negative history, nor an exaggerated negative history, but an admitted negative history).

Is it not mostly probable that the people who make up the backbone of Quixtar – integrity and hard work ethic – are being exploited for those very qualities? Are they not more likely to ‘go the extra mile’ to make PV/meetings/whatever that may or may not have any direct benefit to themselves, but most certainly benefit their upline, out of a sense of responsibility and desire to do better? Just whom do you hope to recruit to make every function and get every ‘business tool’ available?

As crass as this is, I can only think of good, hardworking, ethical people getting loaded into a freight car and scrunching in to make room for a few more because it is the nice thing to do…while saying ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ the entire time.

This is not the ‘backbone’ of Quixtar – it is the ‘proletariat’ of Quixtar, with everyone hoping one day to become a Quix-Commisar. Problem is, some of the Commisars don’t like the position once they get there. Why? The old ethics/integrity virtue that got them in and kept them there may not allow them to.

And, BTW, what exactly are these ‘right steps?’ Please don’t tell me that they are the same one we have seen over and over again that don’t change a thing. Are people getting kicked out? Charged? No. Are the rules suddenly being enforced? When did the ‘old negative’ Quixtar become the ‘new ethical’ Quixtar? Spare me.

Posted by: Porkchopjim | September 17, 2004 4:28 PM

Too many comments to answer in this post without writing a book. My first 6 months in the business, I never even purchased a product, and I maybe went to a couple of events, but mostly I just asked a million questions. It was a seminar that I went to, and timing in my life, that ultimately helped me make the decision to pursue this business and so I would actually count that as my starting point. From that month on my business has been profitable. There have been a couple of times where I have come close to being in the red, by making stupid investment decisions without any kind of mentorship, but as hard headed as I am about taking mentorship, I have still managed to be profitable. I have many profitable IBO’s in my organization, and there are also many that are not yet profitable, but I can personally tell you that there is not 1 single person in my personal organization that is following our pattern that is not having success. Qblog asked for a statistic, and I would have to say 100% of the IBO’s on my team that are showing 15 plans, plugged into our training system, working with a mentor and are consistent in their activities and efforts are having success. I am proud of them. I would assume that this statistic will eventually change, but we have a tight team, and we have momentum and it is very exciting. I know that this statistic is not true for everybody, because I have seen people get recognized for activity based achievement and yet stay at the same level in the business. I can only speak from what I know, and if someone on my team were committed and showing 15 business plans per month without registering people, then there is obviously something we need to work on. Our business plan is very simple and makes sense. The key is being tight with a mentor that can help guide you so that you can make less mistakes and have more success. I would say that is the difference between many that succeed and those that don’t.

I do not believe that people leave the business because some diamonds make money on systems that they sell to their organizations. In my experience with the business, I can only recall one person that has had this problem. They were in the business for 3 months, and never even came to any event that we had, and they read some negative stuff on the web and came up with that conclusion. So since I never even met them, they only got one side of the story. From my experience, I would say that people mostly quit the business because of these few reasons: Something will come up in their life outside of the business and distract them. Some have problems with rejection so when they are new, they show a few business plans, and face some sort of rejection that they are not used to and they quit to avoid that. I believe that many people quit because they are not started correctly in the business. They are started by someone who might not be following the pattern correctly, and they try some un-proven techniques that end up not working and they quit. I would also venture to guess that some IBO’s might quit because one night they get on a search engine and find sites like this that talk them out of the business. If I were new to the business, a site like this could be devastating. This is all based on my experience.

As far as the tools go, every business needs tools and materials to succeed, so we need to narrow this down to have a decent debate. For instance, a video, tape, or cd that trains an IBO to do a specific activity in the business is obviously helpful. From the system I have become excellent in several skills including showing the business plan, meeting and interviewing potential partners, retailing products, public speaking, answering tough questions, etc. I would say that I probably gain the most from attending events like seminars and product marketing training sessions because there is so much valuable information, and it is there that I get the most inspired to move on with my business. It’s like attending a baseball game live vs. watching it on TV, it is much more impactful. The books are on more general subjects, sometimes specific to this business and sometimes just general principles, but I have become a disciplined reader and I have found that there is wisdom in books. I would say that books have helped build my character and personally developed me more than anything. Every successful person that I can think of that I know has encouraged me to read books, and when I am at their house, I see many of the same books, even when they are in a different industry. So the “tools” that you must be talking about must be the weekly standing order tapes. Which amount to roughly a $6.00 investment per week. 1/3rd of what I spend at Starbucks.

I will compromise with you that the weekly tapes could use an improvement, and when you are very new in the business, sometimes it is confusing on how to get information you need from some tapes and apply it to your business. In our organization, the first tools and materials optionally available to a new IBO contain the how-to of the business, and focus on teaching what to do right off the bat, and the standing order system that we offer is 1 tape per week, and 1 book per month. This 1 tape per week that comes in is the only part of they system that I can figure out that you are trying to argue. Sometimes a tape will come in that will just tell someone’s story that lives in another area of the country and is into different things than you are into, and you might not even be able to pinpoint a specific thing that you learned from it. Heck, they might even be boring speakers! So when you are new, this could be tough, but after some time in the business, I have found these tapes to be very useful. Because I build depth in my organization, I now have IBO’s in several states, and my relatability to those IBO’s has improved tremendously because of the tapes. The same tape that I might think is boring, the next IBO ends up saying it’s their favorite tape! This happens all the time! So when you put out a tape to a group of people, it makes sense that not everyone will love it, some will some won’t. So I think that a good job is done overall on selecting tapes for our organization and everybody that I know that is on the standing order tape program likes it. I am in favor of this standing order system, and I do agree that we could use some improvements.

I realize that every organization might teach a little differently, but in our organization, we want and IBO to become profitable as soon as possible. I feel that some of your comments are just lies because they do not reflect the way that I have learned the business. A diamond making money on tapes has never had a negative affect on my business or any other business on my team. The tools are useful and they help us build our business, and they are at a very reasonable price. Comments and suggestions that diamonds dangle tools in front of us like carrots is false and is a misrepresentation of our business. I am very close to my upline diamond, and his heart is in the right place. He takes feedback from the team as to what materials they want, has the tools created, and then gets them out to the team to help the team succeed. He is always looking at ways to make less tools that do more to help and IBO. If he was in it just for the profit, it would make more sense to offer more tools that do less. He offers as much as he can for free to the team, and there are several times where he just breaks even on cost. I am thankful to be part of an organization with a leader who has integrity and is looking out for the team. I could go on forever about this, but all you can do is speculate and give examples of other teams that are unlike ours.

Here is my question to you critics. I have asked this several times on several posts and have never once got a response. But I will try again.

IF YOU HAD A GOAL/DREAM TO BE FINANCIALLY FREE IN 5 YEARS, HOW WOULD YOU ACHIEVE IT?

MANY IBO’S AFFILIATED WITH QUIXTAR HAVE DREAMS/GOALS THEY DESIRE TO ACHIEVE. IF NOT QUIXTAR, THEN WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND?

Posted by: chris | September 17, 2004 5:01 PM

Kenall,

You've nailed it my friend. We can all disagree on some important issues but that shouldn't cause the discussion to deteriorate into wild accusations and namecalling. I'm thrilled to see the issues debated in a civil manner.

They said it couldn't be done! Well, they were wrong.

Posted by: QBlog | September 17, 2004 5:09 PM

Kendall,

When you say the products are over-priced, I am not sure what you mean. I have never had a problem with product prices, and I have several members and even a couple of clients that pay retail and are satisfied. I have heard this on posts but I am always confused by this. Please explain what you mean by saying the products are overpriced.

As far as the system overhead, I have never found that to be too high either. I will assume you were part of an organization that had must have had high overhead costs from the system, but that is just speculation. Overhead per individual can vary depending on how you build your business. If you build it mostly local then it will be less of an investment than if you build groups that require travel. But then again, out of town groups often take more up front to develop, but then less work to maintain down the road, where as local groups will always want access to you. So it all depends on your strategy. Plus if you have tons of free time but not much money, then it would make sense to do as much as you could personally and not really worry about leveraging your time with tools, but if you were say, a doctor and didnt have much time, then it would make sense to invest in more tools to leverage your time to get more done. This is basic business common sense.

Posted by: chris | September 17, 2004 5:26 PM

Nice rhetoric, Chris, but you still failed to answer any financial questions. And no, we aren't asking personal financial questions, just business.

As for how to be "financially free" in five years, I would respond how much money do you need to be "financially free?" What is "financial freedom?" And what will you do if you do not reach it in five years?

Truth is, phrases like "financial freedom" and "residual income" are myths. Bill Gates, the richest person in the world, still works for a living. Why? Because he knows it can all collapse at some point. Sure he has a lot more time and luxery then I do, but he still works. Same goes for your diamond, Chris. Is he financially free? If so, why is he spending all this time helping you and your downline? Why not sell tools for his cost? In addition, the only people who truly get residuals are performers (actors, musicians, etc.) With a 50% drop-our rate within the first year, and an overal 67% drop-out rate, all IBO's need to be very busy just to keep their numbers equal. Remember, 30 years ago, there were actually about the same number of IBO's in North America as there are today! If a diamond in the 70's stopped building, there would be nobody left in his organization, and certainly no residuals.

Last but not least, if someone asked me how I plan to be financially free in 5 years, I tell them I have short term and long term plans. I also suggest you read, "The Millionaire Next Door", Chris, and invest wisely. And while you may not be "financially free" in five years, life isn't a race, and there are lot more important things then money.

Posted by: dmm | September 17, 2004 6:02 PM

Chris,
I'm trying to put myself in your shoes here.
I think you are saying that the "system" overhead is low for a business. I would also presume your thoughts are that if people worked hard enough, whether it be retailing and/or sponsoring, their business would become bigger and profitable. And if they weren't, then they could cancel their subscription to the system.

The fact is that most people do very little with the business, yet continue to buy the tools. Why is that? Is it because of the hope that one day they will have enough confidence to build the business as a result of the tools? Is it because the tapes are so beneficial that even without profiting from the business, they are a great "life enhancing" investments? Is it because they feel the peer pressure of needing to buy the tools to be accepted by their upline? What are your opinions?

Note: I think the tools are a very minimal expense, in the scope of business in general. I think the problem lies in the fact that they really don't do what they are intended to do.(Help you attain financial wealth)
I know Rich DeVos' tape Directly Speaking is old, but he states that there is no proof that people on the system build bigger businesses than non-support IBO's. I also know that there is no solid proof that the "system works", today either

I think the only thing that will work with the majority of people in the business is good old fashioned hardwork and honesty, with a heck of a lot of "NO's". Having said that, how well it works warrants an investigation into whether it's worth ones time or not.

Posted by: Evan | September 17, 2004 6:24 PM

DMM,

Let's define financially free, since there are many different definitions based on the individual. Based on the many times I have asked people the same question you are asking me, the figure that I hear the most is $100,000/yr. So I think it would be fair to use that figure. I also believe in a short term and long term plan, so I do believe that advice is good.

My short term plan is to build my business to the founder's emerald level structured with solid depth and a growing business with momentum as well as leaders in place to run their own organizations. At that point I will reevaluate my business to decide if I want to pursue the next level or not. That is my choice, and I am building my business at this point with an exit strategy in place if that is my desire. I think many build the business where they have their "hands-on" every aspect of it, and so down the line it gets difficult to have an exit strategy and so they continually build, which I admire because then you have IBO's with more experience out there to help you.

As far as residual income goes, there are many different vehicles to earn residual/passive/royalty/on-going income. Bill Gates is financially free and I think your analysis of why he continues to work is wrong. Working is obviously optional for him, but even when you achieve financial freedom, you can begin to do the things you want in life and begin to design a life of your choice and that is what Bill Gates does. I believe he continues to work because it is his passion and he is changing the world. What he is doing today will have an impact on many future generations, and he will be a testimonial for decades to come.

Financial freedom is attainable, and people can achieve and live their dreams, and some do that in their day to day life at their jobs/businesses, and others have desires/goals/dreams but they do not know how to achieve them and they have not found the vehicle yet.

So what percentage of actors make it? What percentage of musicians? Is it not their goal to get rich and famous? Probably not all of them, but then again not all IBO's have the goal to get rich either. So should they not pursue their goals/dreams because most people don't make it? No, they should pursue their dreams and goals and I believe in people and I believe there is a shot for them. Should they have a backup plan incase acting or music doesn’t work for them? Well that is up for debate because most people with a backup plan use it when the going gets tough, but many famous actors and actresses have told stories about how it was this or nothing, and that attitude helped propel them to success.

If you read below in other posts, you will see that I have given information about my income, but as far as detailed information being spread on the internet, that is not a smart move for anyone and I would not recommend that anyone do it. Including you or anyone else reading this. I am posting here instead of on another negative site because I believe that QBlog runs his site well and is open to a fair discussion of this business. I do not agree with him, so I am posting some of my thoughts, but ultimately if I were going to post personal information, his email would be the most likely place it would arrive. But the problem with putting figures out there is that you will spin them regardless of what they are.

I have read the Millionaire Next Door, it actually came as part of our standing order tools system. You say there are a lot of things more important than money, and I couldn't agree with you more. It's like you are preaching to the quire since I use that line all the time. See the reason I am building this business is because most people, including me, spend their life trading their precious time away for what? Money. They drop their kids off at daycare to be raised by someone else so they can chase what? Money. See, people these days are in so much debt, because they want the things money can buy, even when they can't afford it. What they don't realize is that time is the most precious thing.

I see the time freedom that many of the Emeralds and above have in this business, and it is the same time freedom that many individuals tell me they desire when I introduce them to this business concept. If this business is not for them, then I try to at least encourage that they don’t give up on their dreams, and they pursue and achieve them because they can. It is possible, even if the odds are stacked against them. Businesses like Quixtar will continue to thrive because people these days, especially the younger generation, do not have financial management skills, and they dig themselves deep in debt, and they continually refinance their houses to have more money to pay off more debt, then they go right back in debt.

One solution is to learn how to set up a business, build it to a point where it can run without you needing to be there, and then exit out of that business. Perhaps you could do this several times until you were ready to retire. Similar to buying a McDonalds and then reinvesting profits into another McDonalds, and then another, until you owned several and they could run without you being there. Only most people cannot afford a McDonalds, and so this business is a more reasonable solution for more individuals. Many of you that post on here have web design and programming skills, and so you could venture into affiliate programs and make some serious residual income there as well, but again the average person does not have those skills. You could become a successful investor, but the average person does not have the money, let alone the time to learn to become a successful investor, but it is still an option. Real Estate? I have friends that have lost big in real estate, and others that have made fortunes. Write books, star in commercials, movies, put out platinum cd’s… There are many options to achieve wealth and/or financial freedom and time freedom, and I see Quixtar as a solution for the average person. I know you all disagree with me, but at least you know where I stand.

Posted by: chris | September 17, 2004 7:03 PM

Evan,

I do not believe that IBO's continue to stay on the system because of "pressure" from upline. This does not happen in our organization and I have never heard of this happening. It may happen in another organization, but I do not know.

For this reply, I called up an IBO on my team who has been in the business for 2 years and is not profitable and has attended every event we have and is on 2 standing order cd's per week, and one book per month, plus he said he has a couple hundred dollars worth of advertising materials in the trunk of his car.

I asked him a few questions to get some prospective. I asked him why he continues to stay in the business even though he is losing money. He said that he felt that the business was helping him in his personal life, and that he used to be negative and angry and he wasn’t anymore, and every time he gets cd's in the mail, he puts them in his car and listens to them when he is driving. He said it was better than music and he felt there was a benefit there. He did admit that when friends are in the car he gets nervous and puts on music.

I asked him why he gets nervous, and he said its because they might ask him about the business and he would be on the spot and wouldn’t know what to do.

I asked him why he continues to stay in the business even when he has a fear like that. He said that he hopes that one day he can overcome several of his fears like speaking in public and not being so nervous around people.

I asked him how many plans he has shown this year and he said he has shown probably around 3. I asked him why he only showed 3 all year even though he knows it takes more to succeed, and he said that he wants to show more and has a desire, but he is nervous to talk to people. He told me that for years he has avoided going to parties with friends or doing anything to put him in the spotlight. He said that he thinks he can overcome this fear because of this business.

I asked him what he thinks truly keeps him in the business for these years and he said why would he quit when he feels like he is gaining from it. So i said "even though your losing money"? And he told me that it's not all about the money. He spent money on college and doesn’t even have a job in his major. He said that the investment in money so far is minimal compared to what he has learned.

- That conversation was a little paraphrased, but I thought it would give some insight on prospective from an IBO who is not very active at all but still stays in.

So to answer your questions Evan, I think that for this particular example, you hit it on the head. I applaud IBO's like this for having the staying power, but I am not sure if I could have stayed in that long without being profitable. I have been profitable since my first serious month in the business, and I think that most people should have the same goal. On the flip-side though, I was not afraid to put in the work to get there. I had different obstacles to overcome, and I would probably be much further if I wouldn't have let those obstacles become a distraction, but that is easy to say in hindsight. Hopefully this post has been helpful.

Posted by: chris | September 17, 2004 7:23 PM

Chris:

If you really read and understood The Millionaire Next Door, you wouldn't drop $18 on Starbucks/week.

You'd take that money and put it in a S&P mutual fund (which has historically returned 10% over the past 10 years) and double your money every 7.2 years.

It won't get you to Millionare status in 5 years, but it is a good start to getting where you want to go!

Just think if you scrapped all of those future cd/tape/function purchases and put it in the market...?!?!?!

Posted by: hartman | September 18, 2004 3:49 PM

P/S: Where did PJ go. I asked him 3 easy questions, and despite the pages of rhetoric, PJ and his 3 easy answers never materialized.

PJ is all show, no go.......

Posted by: hartman | September 18, 2004 3:50 PM

Hartman,

Great point on the tools. People enter the business as a means of making money. Becoming a better person through the training is secondary. The upline does have an obligation to train its downline at no charge. The tools are just a way of shirking those responsibilities. And yes, tool money pumped into the proper investments would yield some massive returns somewhere down the road. Shouldn't the upline pursue that, if they really had a vested interest in YOU and noth THEMSELVES.

As for PJ, Hartman, cut the guy some slack will ya. For all we know, he's on holiday.
It's the friendly exchange of dialogue that makes this blog exciting and refreshing, and stimulating. Not the harsh negatives that I've noticed from some I'll leave unnamed.

Posted by: Evan | September 18, 2004 5:44 PM

Hartman,

I am invested in the stock market but not in mutual funds. I am into much higher risk investments that have higher returns, that is more my investment style. I am also invested into real estate on a family set-up. My future plan is to invest into more real estate, and less stock market investments, as I see greater investment return in real estate of the 2 options. I also plan on buying businesses with systems in place that run without me needing to be there, like franchises.

Why wouldn’t I invest in tools/tapes/cds/events when they are helping me in several areas of my business and life. I am learning business building skills, personal development skills, leadership skills, and many other skills as well. This information is very valuable to me and it is a very lucrative investment and I would highly recommend it to anyone that would like to grow in those areas.

I am a sucker for Starbucks and I apologize for my poor mentality on that one :) Can anybody else relate! I also drink a couple of XS energy drinks per day and I love the new Cherry Blast! Have you tried it?

FYI - Our organization promotes retailing to members and clients, and we put on training events to teach this, and we don't avoid words like "sales" and "retailing" like other organizations have. Just thought that was worth noting.

Evan, not all IBO's enter the business for just money or just to get rich. I would say that many IBO's desire extra time, spare money, the opportunity to help others, financial freedom, the chance to own their own business, etc. I myself am a businessman and I relate to the general concept that your business should be profitable, and that should be a top priority, and I made sure that my business was profitable right off the bat. It would be great if others would do the same, but they are independent business owners, and while I may be available for advice and support, I cannot tell them what to do. I could build their businesses for them, but that is not my style either. I believe in tough love, where I am available to help if they are willing to be mentored, but ultimately it is their decision whether they stay in the black or the red. I try to offer advice based on their activity and results for their level of investment, to try to help them get and stay profitable, but even then, many IBO’s will buy more materials than they truly need, and why would the people running a sales table of tools turn down the business? So the responsibility falls on the IBO buying the tools, not the people that make the tools available.

There are 2 general categories of tools that are available to you. Tools that you subscribe to weekly/monthly and tools that you can buy as a one-time purchase. I have found that if you are looking to develop specific skills to help you earn money with your business, then you should consider the second category of tools, and if you are looking for personal growth, and continual education and motivation, then the standing order program will fill that need. Plus, the majority of these tools available do help you generate income. Tools that help you sell products, present the opportunity, train and develop leaders in your organization, teach how to build depth/width/profitable business structures, etc. I wrote more about my thoughts on the tools in this comment here.

http://sinkinginquixand.blogspot.com/2004/09/can-you-make-it-without-tools.html#c109554882761572881

Posted by: chris | September 18, 2004 6:31 PM

Evan:

No, I will not cut PJ slack. If PJ talks the talk, he better be able to talk the talk. Unfortunately (fortunately?), his BS has never been substanciated.

Chris:

YOU can become a better person with the tools--only withOUT the QUIXBOT spin.

Slow and steady wins this race, as far as I have seen. When did a honest day's work become a bad thing???

Posted by: hartman | September 19, 2004 12:08 AM

Honestly, would you people get over yourselves? Straight up, Quixtar is a huge corporation which carries with it the flaws and qualities of a huge corporation. My parents are in Quixtar, which makes them happy, and I am not... because it would not make me happy.
You guys are realy interested in discussing your different opinions on this?
What a serious waste of time.

Posted by: Anonymous | September 19, 2004 7:45 PM

Funny you put a monetary figure on "financial freedom," Chris. Ever ask people making $100,000/year or more if they are "financially free." I bet the majority of them would answer that they are not. In fact, and I wish I could remember the link, in a study about five years ago, people of all income levels how much money would they have to make in order to feel "comfortable". And while the number figures varied from person to person, everyone's response had one thing in common, and that was they needed to make more.

And regarding Bill Gates and Microsoft, bigger empires then his have fallen before. Many companies that were leaders in their field have either become afterthoughts or have even been bought out. Think Sears, or closer to Bill Gate's business, Atari. Microsoft is a target, and there are plenty of businesses trying to get a piece of their business, not to mention the government is always out there. Ask Bill Gates who is the best person to run Microsoft, he would answer himself. Ask him if he would feel comfortable at all with someone else running his company, and he would probably answer, "No." So, in his mind, he has to work.

As for proof and posting information online, here is what you can do. Block out your personal information on your Schedule C and copy/scan them. You can them e-mail them to QBlog. Remember, your Quixtar numbers will reveal nothing about you personally, and I don't want to know your name or where you live, Chris. What we are talking about here is just business.

Last, if you are still looking for alternatives to Quixtar for quick financial freedom, try a trip to Vegas! The odds for some big stakes games/gambling is actually better then the odds you are going to go diamond! Or how about playing a state lottery or powerball (if you live in or near a powerball state)? Odds are worse then Quixtar, but the pay-out is often greater, and the residuals are real. Because, as stated before, if the diamonds and emeralds don't work hard to replace everyone who leaves the business, the diamond and emerald would lose a lot of money. They aren't finacially free, and in reality, don't have a lot of free time, because they have to continually rebuild their business just to keep their numbers even, and continue to sell tools, speak at conferences, so they can actually make money.

Posted by: dmm | September 20, 2004 10:48 AM

Still looking for PJs response.....

People, don't be fooled. PJ is full of hot air and empty promises!

Posted by: Hartman | September 20, 2004 2:24 PM

Sorry QBlog. I apologize in advance for this long post, but I have taken the time to clarify my response for you.

DMM,

It is hard to distinguish whether your comments are based on sarcasm or an attempt to be serious. So I will reply as if they were serious comments and give you the benefit of the doubt.

You asked me specifically “how much money do you need to be "financially free?” and for the sake of an example, I replied with “Let's define financially free, since there are many different definitions based on the individual. Based on the many times I have asked people the same question you are asking me, the figure that I hear the most is $100,000/yr. So I think it would be fair to use that figure.” And then you comment with “Funny you put a monetary figure on "financial freedom,"”.

I feel that responses like these turn a logical discussion of this business into a game of spin and I would prefer that we respect each others questions, answers, and opinions and act like gentleman so that the comments on this blog will be worth reading. Fair enough? I do respect the time and effort you have put towards researching the business before you came up with the opinions you have, and I also think that your comments are put together well, most of the time, and if I were considering this business, I would probably take your comments and opinions into account to help me with my decision.

I do believe that if we took a poll of any number of people and asked if $100,000 per year of income coming in that they did not need to continually work for would allow them to be financially free, then the overwhelming response would be yes. So I disagree with the statement in your response. I know several people making over $100,000 per year that are not financially free, and the difference is that, they cannot walk away from that vehicle in which they earn that money, and still have the money come in. So they need to continue to work for that money and trade their time away, so the do not feel “free” financially.

Now the next issue is whether or not the income generated as an IBO can truly be “on-going” like royalty income or residual/passive income. I will agree that this is up for debate and I am pretty sure that even Quixtar wants IBO’s to avoid using words like “passive” and
”residual”. Quixtar is smart to want to under-promise and over-deliver and stay away from any statements that may be interpreted as a guarantee in any way, because in business there are no guarantees. So I think that the way to judge whether or not this business “can” be residual for someone is to take a look at the marketing plan, as well as examples of some of the IBO’s who have built businesses to the level in which many assume they can be “free” at.

I am not a lawyer and so I do not claim that my comments are fact, but the IBO Marketing Plan seems to offer IBO’s an opportunity to earn income based on overrides on other IBO’s they refer to the business, as well as continuing to pay bonuses every month based on the volume that runs through your account monthly from the purchases of members and clients. I am sure this is not the legal terminology, but I personally receive override checks on IBO’s I have registered, as well as members and clients that continue to sell products and so I am sure no one will argue my point with that.

My second point would be that I have not read anywhere in Quixtar literature that you physically have to “be somewhere” or commit to any ongoing “personal activity” to maintain your business. I could be wrong on this, but as far as I understand, as long as I am fulfilling the requirements of the member/client rule, have over 100pv in personal volume, and not violating any of the rules of conduct, then Quixtar will continue to send me checks based on the size and structure of my business. So if I set my business up and follow those guidelines, theoretically I could choose to travel the world for any number of years and have no contact with Quixtar and yet still have my checks directly deposited into my account. Agree?

Example 1: An IBO could sell retail coffee to a large corporation and set them up with a ditto delivery profile where they order a certain amount of coffee every month. The IBO could teach them how to maintain that profile and change it anytime they need to and so on, so that they feel comfortable with their purchasing and do not need the IBO to facilitate the process in any way. For the sake of this example, let’s assume that this client orders so much coffee, that the IBO’s commission check from that sale is over $10,000 each month. As long as the IBO is following the Quixtar guidelines for minimum requirement to receive a check and be active, then they will send the IBO that check every month regardless of where they are. Many corporations stay with their suppliers for decades and longer, and many do not, but for this example, let us also assume that this corporation stays with this deal. If $100,000 per year meant financial freedom to that IBO, then I just showed how it can be achieved as an independent business owner powered by Quixtar.

Example 2: Let’s give the example of an IBO that builds their business to the level of Founder’s Emerald. Let’s assume that they have a strong, profitable, growing business, and so at this point they may have even left their day job and begun to build their independent business full time. If their goal was to be able to have their business run without them needing to be there, then they could set their business up that way with many different techniques, including potentially communicating with their team that that was their goal, and then implementing a strategy over a course of time to phase out the amount of work they personally do to continue to have the business grow. Several different strategies could be implemented to make this happen, but the strategy that an IBO could use would be to build strong depth and help many in their organization achieve high levels in the business, to the point where others in the organization are making significant incomes. Then that IBO could have leaders in his/her business that will continue to build even if the IBO wasn’t there, and so they could begin to implement an exit strategy, and when things looked solid and numbers were growing from a business prospective, the IBO could potentially exit out of that business completely and continue to earn an on-going income from the work they did. The average Founder’s Emerald last year made $95,493 according to Quixtar, and so if that meant financial freedom to and IBO, then I just showed how that can be achieved as an independent business owner powered by Quixtar.

My last thought on this topic is that you suggest that most diamonds and emeralds work like dogs to continue to build their businesses and “replace” IBO’s and so on, but it is funny to me because many of these diamonds and emeralds have chosen to continue to build their businesses when they don’t need to. I agree that if a diamond suddenly vanished, that it might cause their organization to lose belief in the business and potentially quit, but if a diamond had a proper strategy to exit the business and implemented that strategy successfully, then they could be completely financially free.

I am thankful that so many diamonds are continuing to build their businesses because that allows for more experienced leadership and access to wisdom. And the reality is that the example of financial freedom from this business that you seem to desire comes from IBO’s that you would not likely hear on tape or see at a business function because they are financially free and do not continue to build their business, yet they receive an on-going income from the work they had previously done. It seems that many critics assume that if they do not hear about these diamonds and emeralds that they do not exist.

As far as your Bill Gates comments, Bill and Melinda Gates are financially free and are making an impact on the world and changing lives as well as the future through technological advances and philanthropical donations. You put words in Bill’s mouth with your assumptions, and I believe Bill Gates CHOOSES to work because it is a passion for him and something that he enjoys doing as well as a very lucrative opportunity that any one of us would be excited about as well. I do not think you have a solid argument by implying that he continues to work because he has to. It may be true that bigger empires have fallen but I am sure that financially Bill Gates has secured himself for life. So for the record, you are saying the richest man in the world continues to work because he has to?

I admire your persistence with your request to see my personal financial statements. At this time I have no intention of passing my financial statements around the internet to be posted and scrutinized, even with personal information blocked out. But with personal information blocked out, how would you even know that it was mine, and that it was even real? It is the personal information on the form that is the only thing to keep it accountable. How would you know it was not from one of your so called “King Pins” in the business? That is without even taking into consideration that I might be operating my business as an LLC or Corporation, etc. And who is to say that 100% of the income generated for my business comes from Quixtar? My business could advertise for Quixtar as well as several other companies. There are many different ways to structure a business, but the bottom line is that it wouldn’t serve as any from of solid evidence to prove something either way, although I admit it would be fun to pass around an IBO’s personal financial statements and let everyone comment on them. For that I could always just fill in some hypothetical numbers and block out all accountability! Wow this could be fun.

The odds in Vegas are by no means better than the odds of becoming a Diamond. I know it was a joke and you were being sarcastic, but the odds of becoming a Diamond are in the control of the IBO. If I choose to become a Diamond, the odds for me are 100%. I decide my own odds. Vegas decides your odds for you. How funny that you use gambling as your example, when the mass number of people lose money in that endeavor and buy into all types of systems to help them to win, and the big corporations make all the money. Vegas choose your odds, but as an Independent Business Owner powered by Quixtar, you choose your own odds for success. Major difference.

I apologize again for this long post, but I like to clarify the truth on the issues and offer some real prospective for IBO’s who might be reading posts like this and considering the Quixtar Opportunity for their families future. I have done my research and I am proud to be an Independent Business Owner Powered by Quixtar.

Posted by: chris | September 20, 2004 3:12 PM

My points are usually serious, and I often use sarcasm and humor to help me get them accross. And I think you missed my point entirely about a monetary figure for "financial freedom." Go back to my last post where I say such a thing is a myth. I don't know how old you are, Chris, or how long you have been in the work force, but one thing you may have already noticed is the more money that comes in, the more money that usually goes out. Make more, and you buy a bigger house, better car, go out and eat at better restaurants, etc. It's one reason why people who already make $100,000 or more don't feel completely "comfortable", because in order to maintain lifestlye and life's "comforts", people almost always feel they need to make more money. It is pshychological, and also why I asked if you have read "The Millionaire Next Door," because the people profiled in the book do a good a job saving money, as they do making money.

Second, theoretically, your examples can be true (residual income). But fifty years of Amway experience has shown us otherwise. And here's what reality shows us. 50% of all IBO's quit after one year, and Quixtar has to replace 67% of its sales force every year. So while someone at the top could theoretically have a huge downline doing all this work so that the person on top can remain on top, but it also means the people in the middle and the bottom never get anywhere. And the reality is, the more the mid levels (1000 pins, 2500 pins) keep spinning their wheels and getting nowhere, the more likely they are to quit. There are a few former 2500 pins or higher who post here, by the way. And when these people leave, it is up to the big pin to replace them. And the big pins know this, which is why they too aren't truly financially free, and why they cannot, despite any exit strategy, leave their business and not see it suffer. They still have to trade their time, or otherwise their downline will collapse, and they will lose their income.

As for your tax statements, true you could post anyone's numbers, but I'd prefer fake ones over nothing. But fact is, I've been asking for tax returns, including IBO's I know personally (under the guise I'm interested in the business and want to verify income claims) and every one tells me they won't release their personal information. Well, I don't want people's personal information, I want their business information. Funny, but when I'm doing business with strangers and I want income verification, I ask for and get access to their business tax information. And if I don't, I politely decline to do business with them.

Last, Bill Gates like many other entrenpeneurs are driven people. He has built a huge empire and while I might be putting words in his mouth, there are reasons why he doesn't let other people run his company. And yes while others in his financial position might up and retire, and live comfortably for a long time, Bill Gates doesn't. Why is that? Because he feels like he cannot, and for all the challenges his business faces (competitors, government regulation, code stealers), he feels he and he alone is best to run MicroSoft. Therefore, he "has" to work.

Posted by: dmm | September 20, 2004 5:16 PM

DMM,

We are going back and forth here so it is probably time to move on to another topic. Bill Gates does not continue to work because he "has" to financially. We will let any other readers of this post decide that, but it sounds silly to me.

As far as releasing my "business" financial statements, I respect your opinion to need to see those before joining an organization. I asked the same when I was getting started of my upline who were just 1000pv at the time. They led me to my upline Platinum’s who showed me a copy of one of their checks and that settled that for me. I had no plan on arguing how fast or how slow they got where they got, but it was proof that the business worked and that the people helping me were receiving checks from Quixtar. That is what I needed to see. So I relate to you more than you think.

I began reading posts here, not to learn more about the company or history, but to possibly pick up a few techniques on how to handle objections and how to help IBO's succeed and not quit. I have learned a lot, and have implemented several things I have learned from QBlogs posts and comments. I am thankful for the respect I get from my comments, being the minority on this site (pro-quixtar), and for not being attacked ignorantly.

Fake statements, as fun as they would be, would not prove anything, and no matter what was sent, I believe you would put a negative spin on it. So what is the motivation from my standpoint. In fact, what would be an example financial statement, as well as time spent building the business, that would please you and have you say "Well, Quixtar might work after all, and I was wrong to think otherwise". No matter what I show you, you will spin it, and so the lack of motivation on my end is keeping QBlogs email empty of financial statements.

I asked for alternatives to be presented to IBO's who have decided to walk away from the business because of what they have read here, and there were alternatives presented. I thank you guys for that, specifically, Jason at http://sinkinginquixand.blogspot.com/2004/09/alternatives.html for putting some time into a decent post on this subject. Although I still added my comments, I have to applaud him on the efforts to do more than just criticize.

Oh, and by the way, before this post I talked to a friend on the phone who is wealthy without the help of a business powered by Quixtar, and he said that I am on the right track with my thinking, and that financial freedom can be attained in many different business ventures and if that is something I desire, then go for it. He is friends with several franchise owners that are financially free and he cited that as an example of having a business that runs without you needing to be there for the day to day operations.

I asked him if he would show the financial statements of one of his businesses to a prospective partner and he said, yes he would to a certain extent. He said you have to be careful in what you present to people and how you present it. He said that he would be willing to show a business plan and profit & loss statement because he is asking someone to partner with him that would be involved in that specific P&L, but that if he was setting someone up in their own business as I do, that he probably wouldn't show them that specific statement, but that he would show them checks or something equivalent. He doesn't know a whole lot about Quixtar, but just the basics and that was his response. Just thought it was worth throwing out there, even though I only asked one person.

So in summary, I agree with your desire to see someone’s financial statements if you were going to partner with them in business, but you are not going to partner with me, and I still do not see the benefit on my end to give you that information, as well as all my points made below as to the lack of accountability in the process. I also respect the right for any individual to not show their personal or business financial statements even though they might lose a potential IBO like yourself.

Posted by: chris | September 20, 2004 5:51 PM

Chris:

Your comment here speaks more than the rest of your long-winded diatribes:

"..I agree with your desire to see someone’s financial statements if you were going to partner with them in business, but you are not going to partner with me, and I still do not see the benefit on my end to give you that information, as well as all my points made below as to the lack of accountability in the process. I also respect the right for any individual to not show their personal or business financial statements even though they might lose a potential IBO like yourself."

Does that mean you openly show your books to your potential recruits?

No, why not?

Is it because they don't ask, or because you don't want to tell.

An educated recruit is your worst nightmare.

Posted by: hartman | September 21, 2004 10:48 AM

One check = proof? You are an easy sell, Chris, if you don't mind me saying so. I'd rather see a profit/loss statement, which is why I usually ask for Schedule C's from American IBO's, because a Schedule C is pretty much a p/l statement. I would accept a personal p/l statement instead of a Schedule C, but most IBO's don't do good enough bookkeeping.

As for my interpretation on whatever numbers you might release, you should not be worried about it. Numbers are numbers. Numbers do not lie, and all I'm seeking is the truth on the business and the chances for profitability. If the numbers show you are profitable, then how "negative" could I spin them?

Posted by: dmm | September 21, 2004 11:20 AM

Hartman, I can honestly say I have never been asked. A close friend has wanted to see a paycheck of mine to see if it really worked, but he was not a potential partner. just a really close friend, and of course I showed it to him.

Posted by: chris | September 21, 2004 1:36 PM

By the way Hartman, an educated recruit is not my worst nightmare, many people do not feel the need to see statements like the ones you ask for. A more common request would probably be to see a check from someone, but still, no potential partner has asked me that either.

Nice try DMM. No negative spin! So now these responses are going to be "fair and balanced"! So DMM, what numbers on a profit and loss statement would be an example of a job well done by and IBO?

As for me being an easy sell. That is your opinion. I have helped IBO's that have careers earning very large six figure incomes outside of this business, and they run very successful businesses, and they have never requested that information from me as well. So it is all opinion. Your are entitled to yours and I am entitled to mine.

The reason that I asked to see one check was sort of a test to my upline, as well as proof that the company was real. I was not looking for proof of whether or not my upline was profitable or not.

Posted by: chris | September 21, 2004 1:51 PM

Do you have reading comprehension problems, Chris. Numbers don't lie. People do, but numbers themselves do not. And if you put out numbers for me to see that show you are making a profit, I asked, how negative of a spin could I put on them? The answer is, I can only offer my analysis of the numbers. And if they show you are losing money, then it might look negative. But if it shows you are profiting, then again, how negative of a spin will I be able to come up with?

As for proof the business exists, I think a check, which can be easily forged or made up, wouldn't do it for me. I'd call the company's headquarters to go online and so some web research. But I would still ask for income verification. Why? Because Quixtar was presented to me as an income opportunity, and while I trust the people who showed me the plan, in doing my due diligence, I wanted verification. It never came, and it never has (saw the plan 4 1/2 years ago), and all the numbers I have seen have not been good. In fact, I would say the only people making money are diamonds, and when you add in product purchases, over 99% of all IBO's spend more money then they make, which is the antithesis of owning a business! Show me different, more positive proof, and I might change my tune. Show me nothing, like you have done so far, Chris, and I have no reason to doubt my conclusions.

Posted by: dmm | September 21, 2004 2:27 PM

"...educated recruit is not my worst nightmare, many people do not feel the need to see statements like the ones you ask for. A more common request would probably be to see a check from someone, but still, no potential partner has asked me that either..."

Chris, you must deal with people of no formal business background. I don't know why you want to do that. When I go to the dentist, I like my doctor to have his degree in dentistry!

Would you buy into any franchise (like McDonald's) without looking at the operating statements? Of course not!

If you didn't do your research before joining Quixscam then you are entitled to the impending heartbreak. It is too bad you are going to take so many naive people down with you....

Posted by: Hartman | September 21, 2004 2:43 PM

Asking Chris for proof of income to determine the opportunity for you, is very unfair.
It really reveals nothing about the opportunity for YOU. Quixtar publishes averages for people. The average IBO income is very low, and people can either say, great, I'll be above average, accept that number and join knowing they will be a part of that stat, or not join.

I think what people really want to see is, how much money does Chris make so that I can evaluate whether or not this guy is blowing smoke? Is he only a passionate 100 PV person, or is he really having success? Just my opinion, folks!

Posted by: Evan | September 21, 2004 3:45 PM

Evan, Chris isn't the only IBO I've asked to see a profit/loss statement from. I've asked several people I know, and several online. I've yet to see anything other then some small blurbs from mastergunner (a poster on the forum) in another forum long since gone. And yes, the company does produce numbers, but it is very hard to determine standard deviation, which will go a long way in determing the true value of a business for the average IBO. We know IBO's in general make about $1,400/year, but we also know there are people out there making six digits and more. In addition, there are those who do almost nothing making maybe $100/year. How much does each category skew the average? Well, one way to know is to look at figures from people who make inbetween the bottom and the top. Not to mention, all Quixtar released averages are net, and not gross, and does not tell me of profitability. If the average IBO does $1,400/year, but spends $1,500/year and shows a loss of $100, is the opportunity a good one?

And when it comes down to it, how good of an opportunity is Quixtar is what I'm trying to answer.

Posted by: dmm | September 21, 2004 4:30 PM

Hartman, I have doctors, lawyers, and many business owners in my organization. None of these individuals have asked to see my personal financial statements before starting up their own Independent Business Powered by Quixtar.

DMM, I am currently paying taxes on my business because I make more money than I can write-off so in my book that makes me profitable. I would love to be able to claim a loss on my business, but I had the goal of getting profitable and for a business to survive long term, it needs to be profitable.

There is only so long you can claim a loss before the IRS considers it a hobby anyhow, but for the record, I actually see being able to claim a loss as an advantage, because in many cases that loss can roll over to your personal job income and you will pay taxes on a lower annual amount, and so your tax return at the end of they year will be greater.

With that thinking, it might actually be harder to NOT make a profit as an IBO. The reason I say this is because of the tax advantages that are available to the IBO. I have never once heard a negative critic of our business talk about tax advantages when hearing their arguments about IBO's not succeeding.

If you are willing to count the increase in the tax return that the IBO might receive as profit or gain, then yes I believe that most IBO's that capitalize on their tax breaks can be profitable or at least break even.

Evan, you said "If the average IBO does $1,400/year, but spends $1,500/year and shows a loss of $100, is the opportunity a good one?"

Depends on the goal of the IBO. If their goal was to own their own business then yes. If their goal was personal development or learning experience, then yes. When you count in the increase in their tax returns, because of the deductions as an IBO, then I would have to say yes again. Yes, they may have finished this last year at that point, but this year their business could potentially grow by 500%! So it all depends on how you decide to view it.

I believe that if more IBO's understood tax write offs as they relate to their business, that you would see a much higher retention rate annually as well as a substantial increase in profitable Independent Business Owners. I suggest to any IBO’s reading this that you seek professional tax advice, and that you fully take advantage of the benefits that are available to you. Be smart, don’t lie, and work with a professional. In many cases, you can write off much more than you actually spend out of pocket.

Ask you accountant about things like “Standard Meal and Lodging Rates” when you are out of town. When you travel for business purposes, you can actually claim a standard out of town rate for meals and lodging depending on which city you are in. Cities like San Francisco, Washington DC, Chicago, Boston, and more offer a rate of $204 per day, under certain guidelines of course. For more on this, visit the following link:

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p1542/ar02.html#d0e295

There is also a standard mileage rate that you can use when you drive to and from business meetings. Beginning Jan. 1, 2004, the standard mileage rates for the use of a car (including vans, pickups, or panel trucks) will be:

37.5 cents a mile for all business miles driven, up from 36 cents a mile in 2003;
14 cents a mile when computing deductible medical or moving expenses, up from 12 cents a mile in 2003; and
14 cents a mile when giving services to a charitable organization.

Starting this year, over 800,000 more businesses will be eligible for this deduction because now you can claim this rate for up to 4 vehicles, when before you were unable to use the rate if you operated more than one vehicle at a time, leaving you to have to track each one individually. Here is a link to an article that discusses this further:

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=114320,00.html

As an IBO, with a background in small business, I do believe that we can significantly increase the number of profitable IBO’s as well as having less of an annual turnover rate if we just educate more IBO’s on the business deductions available to them. Hopefully this was a start.

DMM,

You are still requesting a profit & loss statement from me, although I have already responded to you on this and told you where I stand. It would serve as proof of nothing because there is no accountability in the statement or proof that it is real. I could just as easily make up any numbers to make it look any way I want, and then submit it to you! Think about it.

On top of that, many IBO’s might show a loss in their income statement because they are fully taking advantage of deductions. In many cases they might be able to write off much more than they actually spent out of pocket to build their business. So a profit & loss statement would make it look like they were losing money and were not profitable and were spending a fortune to build their business, when that might not be the case. Sometimes being able to claim a loss on your business is a positive thing, especially if you have a high paying job and are getting taxed at a high bracket.

A profit & loss statement will also often include items that an individual would pay for even if they didn’t have a business, except now they will be able to write it off, so they will want to include it in their income statement, where before it was paid for with after-tax, personal income dollars. For instance, an IBO will start deducting the mileage rate when they drive for business meetings, but many of these destinations are places that they would have gone without the business. This goes for entertainment, meals, home office and other items as well, as long as business is discussed, or the said item is used for business purposes and for this I would consult with your accountant. And we haven’t even begun the discussion of what type of business set-up an IBO has from LLC’s to Corporations and so on.

My point is that even if you got your hands on an accurate profit & loss statement, it would be hard to get an accurate income representation. One IBO might earn $2000 per month, and spend $1000 per month, so they would profit $1000 per month. Another IBO in the same situation might be able to write off an additional $1000 per month and so they would break even. Another IBO might write off $3000 per month so it would look like they actually lost $1000 per month, when they could all have the exact same situation, just different record keeping.

So I want you to seriously think about your request and realize that it is not going to solve anything. You cannot trust the source, and so if the statement looks really good, you will likely attack it and say it is false and made up, which could totally be true since there is no proof to back it up. Since I have too much integrity to make up numbers to give to you, and since I do not want my financial statements floating around the internet, my answer is no, and it is not an ignorant no, which is why I took the time to explain myself.

Posted by: chris | September 22, 2004 3:25 AM

Chris:

You're making excuses. I thought 'excuses' are looked down upon by your 'business' ?!!?

If we could get your returns and the returns of 29 other AmQuixers, then we could make a statistically sound study.

So the request is valid, as long as you are not the only statement we are measuring against.

Now, if you could get 6 of your downline to provide a tax return, and they could get 4 of their downlines......hahahaha

Come on Chris, put up or shut up!

Posted by: Hartman | September 22, 2004 10:15 AM

Dodge and weave. It's the only response I ever get. I'm just glad traditional businessmen don't do this dance half as much as IBO's do. Otherwise, business would never get done. By the way, lawyers and doctors are usually good in their field, but often make poor businessmen.

And as for your tax strategy, Chris. You need to be careful and work with a professional. Keep deducting too much and you might catch the ire of the IRS, who can claim your business a hobby and/or say several of your deductions are not valid. It's not a pretty thing when they do that either, because not only do you owe the extra money, you owe interest on it too.

Posted by: dmm | September 22, 2004 10:38 AM

DMM,

I do work with a professional for my taxes, and that is how I know about what deductions are available to me. I recommended in my post that all IBO's seek professional help. Why would you give me a hard time on that? We agree on this issue. But the fact is that there are many more tax deductions for an independent business owner than for someone who just has a job. In fact, I would recommend that anyone who has a job that they should start up a part time business, and take advantage of the tax benefits they will receive. But be sure to get professional help in the process. This is just smart business.

Hartman,

I took the time to be professional in my response to you and i get this response from you in return. At this point, I feel that I have made my point and you have made yours, and you know where I stand on this issue. So if you are going to be persistant in this, then be persistant with someone else because you have read my comments and understand my stand on this.

Posted by: chris | September 22, 2004 3:59 PM

The warning I give about taxes is the IRS doesn't take too kindly to people who have small businesses and use them for tax shelters. It's why the IRS created the "hobby business" category, and why they state all businesses should be in existance for the sole purpose of profiting. And even if your business profits, but only shows small profits and little or no growth, it still might catch the IRS' attention, at which point, you will get audited. And the IRS has a history of taking their red pen to deductions you thought were legitimate, and you are stuck paying back taxes, plus interest.

Also, I suggest you do some math. I think, in general, that for every dollar spent on a legit business expense, the business owner gets about $.20 back from the tax deduction. On your profit/loss statement, take your income and minus .8 of your costs. This is a quick look at what your expenses, after tax deductions are, and how much you are profiting, including tax deductions. You can also, if you want to take the time, split out expenses you would have regardless of your small business (phone, etc.), and then the ones that are business only expenses (seminars, etc.) and play with these numbers.

In short, the tax benefits of owning a small business can be advantageous, but the IRS (as am I), do not exist to give you money back on a tax shelter. The first priority of owning a business, any business, is to profit. And after a couple of years, if you aren't making more money then you are spending, I suggest filling out your Schedule C for a "hobby business", or pray you never get audited.

Posted by: dmm | September 22, 2004 4:13 PM

dmm:

You've nailed it on all fronts. This Chris guy has more 'ducks' and 'weaves' that a flock of mallords in a wig shop!

If this guy had substancial to offer, he would have done so. Instead we get excuses, excuses, excuses....

Posted by: hartman | September 22, 2004 7:59 PM

Wow Hartman, I have been very respectful and have answered questions thrown my way, and have been very clear in my responses, thus the long posts. I have not ducked and weaved anything. I have not made excuses, but revealed that your requests are not valid, and let's let any readers decide who is right on this subject. I am not here to play games and call eachother names :o)...

As far as taxes go, I agree that it is a touchy subject, that is why I threw disclaimers all throughout my post. I do recommend that IBO's seek advice from professionals, but take full advantage of the legal tax deductions and business write-offs available to them.

I wish I could go into more detail on this subject, but this is a gray area to give tax advice when I am not a certified professional. I would love to talk about all the amazing opportunities IBO's have when it comes to tax deductions, and I would love to share different ways an IBO can set up their business to have even more deductions, ie, incorporate, llc, etc.

But since I am not certified to give tax advice, they should seek professional council.

Quixtar offers some information to IBO's that they can find in their virtual office as well as these links:

http://www.quixtar.com/Documents/IWOV/MBR/010-en/PDF/TaxRelated/your_quixtar_earnings.pdf

http://www.quixtar.com/Business/Tools/Taxinfo/default.aspx

Like for instance, many IBO's do not know about the sales tax adjustment form and the refund they can get from Quixtar by simply filling that out. That is another form of income they can get, and the form is not complicated, it just requires looking into your virtual office for the past year and documenting a few things.

My point is clear. That IBO's have greater tax advantages than employees, and that I feel it would be wise for them to look into these tax benefits and take advantage of them. Simple Statement.

Posted by: chris | September 22, 2004 9:32 PM

But it IS a valid request. I would never buy a McDonald's franchise without looking at their books. Why would I ignore your books? I wouldn't and I'm NOT.

As I said before, and educated consumer is your worst nightmare.

If you 'squeeze' someone into joining by sidestepping their requests to see your books, then shame on you both! Sure, you could cook your books, but it will eventually catch up with you and the people you duped into this sham.....

Posted by: hartman | September 22, 2004 9:45 PM

Qblog,

I'm not sure if this string of comments was what you were looking for. It seems to me this is that same coversation that occures everywhere in your forum.

I am one who claimed it was a fruitless effort...of sorts. This sting of exchanges is exactly what ment.

Just because people arn't calling each other F***ing jerks, doesn't mean this is any more productive of a conversation.

You said your goal was to"embrace a dialogue between critics and advocates and hope that each side ends up learning something from the other."

So far I don't see if anyone has learned anything yet.

But i'll give you the "time will tell" sense of open mindeness.

Posted by: MLM Dojo | September 22, 2004 10:52 PM

Actually Dojo,

These comments have very little to do with the purpose of this project. If they break new ground, that's great. If not, that's ok too. To be honest, this project is already surpassing my expectations. It's going wonderfully and I hope it continues. If you don't understand what's happening, that's ok. Stick around long enough and you'll "get it."

Posted by: QBlog | September 22, 2004 11:17 PM

Dojo,

As an IBO with a very positive view of Quixtar, I have learned from these comments. A new IBO without much business experience might not take these negative views the same way as I do. I have a very large, profitable, growing business, and by knowing what people are skeptical of and don't like about the business, I can address those issues with my team when I feel the time is right.

I agree with these critics when they talk about how they had a negative experience in the business, and they point out why and I try to not have the IBO's in my organization have the same things happen to them. So in this way, the dialogue becomes useful.

The rest of the conversations just come down to what an individual believes in as far as business principles and you will see the responses vary on each issue, just like people are when it comes to politics or any other topic where there is conviction in differing views.

Back to you Hartman. If I were considering you as a potential business partner and you asked to see a profit and loss statement, I have one, and I would likely show it to you. But you are a stranger on the internet that I am not considering as a partner.

If I ask a McDonalds franchise owner to post his income statement on the internet for us all to view or else he is all just talk about how one can be successful with a McDonalds franchise, is he wrong for not posting it? NO.

On the other hand, if I were going to buy that franchise from him, it would be mandatory for me to see the books, and if I were going to open up a new McDonald’s franchise, I would learn all I could about how successful each franchise is.

So your request would be valid if I were trying to use these comments as means to recruit someone for my business. But I am not. In fact, if a new IBO or potential IBO came across this site, it is more likely that they would quit because of the negative spin that Eric Janssen puts in his posts.

So I am not posting comments here to save IBO's, although I hope that my comments have helped them to make an educated decision about the business. I do not know you, nor do I know anyone else that posts on this blog, so I am not going to give you the financial statements of my business.

I will answer questions for you as I have, and I will be respectful towards everyone’s opinions. We are very busy people and have taken time out to engage in some dialogue about the pros and cons of Quixtar so that IBO's like myself can learn from you and build better businesses and critics like yourself can see that not all you talk about is true and not every IBO is having a negative experience.

Posted by: chris | September 23, 2004 1:08 AM

Oh...I get it now. This project is about enlightening those IBO's who are willing to listen.

Interesting.

Chris, I guess I won't ask you how many people in your group also have a large or profitable business.

Although, I am eager to ask...How are you able to create a profitable business when others are not? And by profitable I'm assuming you are talking about net profitability right?

Are you duplicating what your upline trained you to do...or have you broken free to do your own thing?

Posted by: Brian J. | September 23, 2004 1:47 AM

Chris, you're getting sloppy buddy. "Negative spin" on it? Look up the Bankin' It check. Read this post and the other from BackBone. I may not think Quixtar is "God's gift to mankind" but you'll find no consistent "negative spin" on my blog. Frankly, that's the kind of blather IBOs have been using for years to avoid tackling the issues, "I won't talk to him because he'll put his negative spin on it." Bah.

And Brian, think whatever you want dude. I really don't have the energy to try to make you understand. You're wrong but that