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September 27, 2004
Monday Reader Mail: 14
By QBlog in Reader Mail
Today's Reader Mail is an oldie but a goodie. It comes from "RG" who says he is an IBO and the owner of a retail store (watch out for Rule 6.5 violations). As always, my comments are in bold.
name: RGRG closes with a sentiment that many share - do not hide things from us. That evasiveness, secrecy and inability to answer questions candidly is what motivated me (in part) to start this blog. Why is it so difficult for people in Quixtar, in so many businesses, to just be honest and transparent? I admire the few IBOs I've met who display such candor but I just don't understand why they're the exception rather than the rule... at least in my experience. Maybe I'm just running in the wrong circles? Should I move to Michigan?
date: January 25, 2003message: I have been IBO for 2 years. Consider myself decent businessman. My wife and I own a retail store and make 60,000 year but working 70 hours + a week gets old. Our good friends showed us this business and I really thought it would be cool if it worked after all the site is pretty impressive.
RG wrote this in 2003, nearly two years before the big Quixtar redesign. RG, like many others, was easily impressed... at least with Web sites.
In my opinion the products are too expensive and I couldn't convince myself to tell my friends knowing they would have to spend more of their hard earned money than traditional stores. so we use it off and on for convenience. What's amazing is the company is doing 1.2 billion in sales but I see people making $20-30 month. My wife and I went across stage for 1000pv. I was excited however my heart sank when I found out our friends downline spent $1400 of their own money to get there. We don't see our friends anymore too bad they are really hooked however only still making $10-30 month and probably spending $300. If you want someone to walk beside you to achieve a dream THERE CANNOT BE SECRETS!
Comments
Good point Chris. Unfortunately, the few people making massive amounts of money on the system which has been exposed have really been the problem, and thus, most Quixtar/Amway folks have been painted with the same broad brush.
You would be hard pressed to be a new IBO in 1995 and be aware that the tools were a big money maker for the upper level distributors.
Now it is common knowledge, and a lot of people are saying, "Oh yeah, no wonder those tapes & seminars were so important". These are the same people who feel betrayed.
I feel sorry for anyone trying to make an honest go of this now. I think the prices are too high, personally, and to me, the difference in price makes the effort not worthwhile. I would be excited to be involved if the prices were truly competitive, but the fact is, I haven't been convinced that they are, nor has convenience over other internet sites (with lower shipping costs) been proven to me.
BUT, the sour taste the truth has brought out about the tool income has pretty much ruined it for the honest guy just trying to better him/herself. Being online just isn't enough now for the people who feel betrayed by past performances.
Maybe this secret?
"I was excited however my heart sank when I found out our friends downline spent $1400 of their own money to get there."
In business, there should be NO SURPRISES, especially a business like MLM. That statement is indicative of what I encountered frequently while my wife was in Quixtar. If I asked how much someone made, they'd tell me. If I asked how much they spent, I got non-answers or "it's not important" type answers.
I speak from my experience and virtually every IBO I came in contact with during our time in Quixtar would NOT answer questions and kept secrets.
Fair enough, but I have experienced the exact opposite. I have found that IBO's have been very honest and open about things. At least, that has been my experience. I have had no problems getting my questions answered, and believe me, I have had plenty :)
QBlog, about the example secret that you gave, how do we know that was a secret? How do we know that RG's friend isn't the one that told him? We can't tell for sure from this email.
But even if RG wasn't told about it from his friend, why is it RG's business to know in the first place? I am very confused here. If I don't tell you, QBlog, how much money someone in my los spent buying products last month, am I keeping a secret?
Or let's say that I have 2 seperate people I am helping to build their own businesses powered by Quixtar. If one spends $400 on shopping last month and the other spends $800, then am I keeping secrets if I don't tell one what the other one spent?
On top of that, what is so crazy about spending $1400 in a month on products? There were dozens of months that I spent more than that, before I was involved with Quixtar in any way. That figure sounds about average for a family with kids for their monthly shopping.
So that IBO redirected their monthly shopping to buy Quixtar products and did over 1000pv that month. So what! First of all, its their decision to spend as little or as much on products as they want, and second of all, we don't know whether they bought the products just for the pv, or if they bought them because they needed them. And if they needed them, then what could possibly be wrong with that?
Rocket,
I understand what you're saying here.
QBlog,
Your post is written in a way that made me think that the secrets were deliberate or at least you thought they were.
I felt like there were a lot of unanswered questions too when I was an IBO. But upon further reflection, I would attribute that to the poor quality of the person that I was asking. How could they know more than I did, they probably had less experience.
But I must say that I felt that there was some hiding going on when people asked questions about the tools, etc. Then I saw the defensiveness of the Diamond shoot up. That's when he would divert attention to something else.
Ambivalent
Chris says:
On top of that, what is so crazy about spending $1400 in a month on products?There were dozens of months that I spent more than that, before I was involved with Quixtar in any way ...
So that IBO redirected their monthly shopping to buy Quixtar products and did over 1000pv that month.
Reply:
Except for the fact that this is an impossablility. First of all I'll let you spend $1400 in Quixtar and I'llspend $1400 at nearly any store in my town and we'll compare carts?? I'll wager my kids get more...Secondly, $1400 does not equal 1000PV now does it?
Mark, you are absolutely right! It is very, very rare that you could purchase 1000pv with $1400. There has been times in the past where items such as Kahve Coffee have been point for dollar, where this has been possible, but I don't think that is what happened.
My guess is that RG's friend's downline shopped $1400 worth of their own money, and then they probably also had a group at that point that also did some shopping and so the total was over 1000pv.
My point is simple. There is nothing wrong with that. I think that RG took it out of context and probably had it explained to him wrong.
However, for the benefit of the doubt, maybe that organization has a leader who promotes buying things you don't need to hit levels in the business. If that is true, that organization will likely fall apart. But all we can do is specuate on this because the email is not clear enough.
You said "I'll let you spend $1400 in Quixtar and I'llspend $1400 at nearly any store in my town and we'll compare carts?? I'll wager my kids get more".
I think that we would come very close, and you might win that wager or I might win. But there would not be a significant difference either way, because some of Quixtar's products are less expensive, and some are more expensive. Plus there are many other factors to consider.
Our comparison would be better served if we both shopped online, rather than one of us shop online and one of us shop at a brick and mortar store.
We should also be able to factor in any rebates that we might receive from our shopping. If your product has a mail in rebate, that would count, and as an IBO, I get a check back on my shopping as well.
Quality should also be a factor, because I could shop at a "dollar" store but I don't because the quality is crap. In most situations I care most about quality, as my number one factor for my purchases, but then there are some things that I could care less about. So quality should also be factored into the comparison.
That being said, I think that you would have a tough time ending up with a better value in your cart than in mine.
And if I don't like my product when I'm half way done with it, I can call up Quixtar and get a refund, and chances are likely that they will just tell me to keep whatever the product I wanted to get a refund for!
$1400 a month for consumables? You've gotta be kidding.
We have four children, and I spend about $550 a month to feed all six of us, including non-edibles such as soaps, paper products, trash bags, etc. I don't shop at the dollar store, and don't buy many generic products (cheap isn't a value if it is gross). I DO buy lots of loss-leaders (those are the items your grocery store puts on the front page of their weekly ad, selling them at a loss to lead you into the store) in bulk, specials, Buy-one-get-one, etc.
A few years back, DH was trying to convince me to switch over from 'negative' products. After reviewing the Quixtar pricing, I learned that our family, for the same $550 a month, could buy all our paper, plastic, and soap products from Quixtar, with just enough grocery money left to buy Quixtar-brand cereal. For half of the month. No milk, no lunch, and no dinner. And not even any breakfast for the second two weeks of every month.
Course, I guess that big rebate check might be enough to cover another week's worth of breakfast...
There's no way on this earth that I could come out with less quantity AND quality spending $1400 at the stores of my choice (generally the local grocers and Target) vs spending $1400 on anything at Quixtar - even including the rebate.
CK,
I asked around to a few people to see what their shopping overhead was on average each month and I got the following answers from 4 households. These are obviously rounded to the nearest hundred.
1) $2000 - family of 6
2) $800 - married, no kids
3) $800 - family of 4
4) $1200 - family of 4
I also asked a young single friend and he spends about $500 per month for his shopping.
I know that this poll is not specific, but your last post got me thinking, and so I thought I would make a few phone calls.
BTW: None of these people are affiliated with Quixtar in any way.
My argument on here is not that Quixtar has the "cheapest" products, or even the highest quality for that matter. If you are looking for quality and service, then shop at Nordstrom’s. If you are looking for "cheap" prices, then shop at Costco.
Quixtar offers quality products at competitive prices. I have set up several people as members and walked them through a couple of catalogs, and they get excited and never seem to mention anything about price. That has not yet been an issue. My members are happy and continue to order.
I have also retailed products to customers and they purchased the products because they felt that the value for the cost was fine. So even if you personally don't agree with the prices, the fact is that there are many that do.
Even though Costco might have great prices, many people still choose to pay higher prices at their local store instead of driving to Costco. And many people enjoy the convenience of having their products delivered to their home, even if it might cost a little more.
Chris,
I am sure your poll is pretty accurate.
I am a 'value' shopper, meaning I shop for price, but for what I WANT, not for a lesser product just because it's cheaper, and I'm very good at it. I would not make a good Quixtar consumer.
But if you have found enough people to purchase at retail becuse they really like the product or value, AND you teach your downline to emphasize retail as well, I believe that model has a chance.
It's a limited market (the market for people who spend that kind of money regularly on consumables), but hey, somebody has to fill it, why not you?
CK,
Great response. You didn't attack me, but pointed out why you wouldn't make a good Quixtar customer and I thought you reply was good.
When I come across a potential member/client that like you, is very frugal in their shopping and they already have their way of doing things, then I will know that they probably won't redirect their whole household shopping.
So I would ask some simple questions to see if there is a specific product that I offer that could help fill a specific need they might have.
They might be having a health problem that a Nutrilite product could help with. They might want to lose weight, which the Trim Advantage products could help with. They might be spending a fortune on bottled water, which a water treatment system could help with and on and on.
Or there might be no reason for them to become a Quixtar shopper at all, and that is totally cool too.
You said "But if you have found enough people to purchase at retail because they really like the product or value, AND you teach your downline to emphasize retail as well, I believe that model has a chance.
It's a limited market (the market for people who spend that kind of money regularly on consumables)".
My response to the first part is that our organization does teach registering members/clients. I think every organization does. Is there truly an organization that doesn’t promote registering members and clients that just order products? I know that big systems like BWW and Yager have product training events to educate people on the products so that they can sell more of them.
Many organizations these days are teaching IBO’s how to reach 300pv through member and client volume. This helps the IBO to be more stable and profitable while building their business.
You can achieve the same levels in the business with 1/3rd of the IBO’s so more money flows through to each IBO than ever before. I believe that with easy to move products like XS energy drinks that in the future we could start to see 1000pv personal volume through member and client purchases. There have been several months where I have moved that much volume through members and clients.
I totally disagree with the context of that last statement. Every household in America spends money regularly on consumable products, and Quixtar offers products that are price competitive and good in value, so why would you think that it is a limited market? What is your logic?
Even if there were only a few products that they bought every month, we could still service them those few products. Not every customer needs to buy everything. That would be silly thinking.
I am not attacking your statement, just reflecting some perspective. I actually think you have a good attitude when it comes to debating issues on a business model you might not believe in.
CK wrote:
"I am a 'value' shopper, meaning I shop for price, but for what I WANT, not for a lesser product just because it's cheaper, and I'm very good at it. I would not make a good Quixtar consumer."
And I applaud you for that. And if you like doing it, that's great.
But for those of us that would rather be doing something other than shopping, we'd have to factor in the time that we could be doing something else as well as the gas costs.
Ambivalent
Am I missing something? What secrecy is RG referring to? He mentions at the end of his email that "there cannot be secrets". What secrets?
QBlog, you respond by saying "That evasiveness, secrecy and inability to answer questions candidly..." RG does not give an example of this secrecy, and in my experience with the business, I have not seen this "evasiveness" and "secrecy", or "inability to answer questions".
I agree that there may be some IBO's that are evasive, but I would disagree that the average IBO is. I do not believe that they are the exception rather than the rule. I would suggest that it is the other way around. Definitely!
Posted by: chris | September 27, 2004 5:48 PM