Monday Reader Mail: 11

It's the cynical side of me saying this, but I firmly believe the reason Quixtar is so ferverent about religion is because it is a proven shroud for shady deals.

I am studying to become a Certified Financial Planner and one of the aspects of that designation is an ethical requirement. To that end, the CFP Board polices all CFPs and can administer punishments for ethical violations up to and including the permanent revocation of a person's CFP designation. Guess which state has the most CFP disciplinary actions? Utah. Why? Because everybody is the same religion. It implies a level of trust and certain people know how to manipulate that trust. The same effect causes people in Quixtar to blindly trust their leaders when they probably shouldn't.

Posted by: Waymee | September 6, 2004 5:11 PM

Yeah, there's a whole pile of deception going on by people claiming to be Christians.

I think that a lot of the Christian aspect is created so that people will not be so quick to question the motives of the upline and not focus on the rationale behind the tools. This is also where edification fits into the equation as well, in that people are basically trained to adore the upline. Why?

I think trust manipulation is a very accurate term. Not everyone falls for it, but the ones that want to succeed really badly do.

Posted by: Rocket | September 6, 2004 9:31 PM

This goes back to the comments I made a couple of weeks ago on Qblog's "Quixtianity" post. I think when a person or organization uses the name of Jesus Christ as a means for personal gain or influence, then they are taking the Lords name in vain.

Your right Qblog. The actions should speak louder. Jesus said this himself when he said that the greatest commandment was to love your neighbor.

This is a major part of the quixtar debate for me. I have seen people manipulated into thinking they are doing something that God has ordained, and to turn away would be like turning their back on God. It's quite sad as there is, at that point, not much one can do when looking from the outside in.

Posted by: jason | September 6, 2004 10:35 PM

As I re-read this email something jumped out at me.

The writer also briefly spoke about being able to give to charity. I was presented with this angle when I was prospected and my immediate mental response was, 'hey, I'm doing all that God asks financially by giving the first 10 percent of my income back to him. So don't make me feel guilty for not doing my part for charity's sake.' (besides the fact that it is likely that very few IBO's are giving anything to charity at all).

That was my response and if you think about it, if everyone simply gave 10 persent of what they earned back to God (in the form of a tithe to the church, or to a charitible cause) then don't you think the world would be a better place. You don't have to be in Quixtar to do that, or even be a millionare.

Posted by: jason | September 7, 2004 12:10 AM

Quixtar does not run the functions as we all know and if they endorsed one religion then why are others allowed to join and succeed. I am a christian and enjoy the business because I don't have to compramise on Christian priniciples. Networking is not new, helping others get what they want so you can get yours is another priniciple.

Now if I am reading correctly DRJ is in britt and so am I. I am sure Drj you are aware of Kanti, Kumar and many indians etc that has huge businesses and are big pins that broke at least six diamonds and a EDC this year and God knows how much in india. Were they forced to change their belief by Bill?? Isn't Quixtar paying them??

I can find in the Hindu religion practices that would be contrary to what the bible teaches. I got indians on my team as well but that dosen't mean I work with them any less. Now as I become friends with them I will SHARE THE GOSPEL....verbally and with actions and with love and compassion. When Bill did the Sunday mornings I didn't see him forcing different religions to come or revoke their tickets because they didn't. When these Diamonds on the tapes/cds get up there they give credit and glory to God.People are attracted to this and tend to feel comfortable around people with the same beliefs.

If your upline didn't work with you becaUSE of religious beliefs, quixtar has rules against this. I like what one commenter wrote which was that it is personal preference. As usual one can question anyones motive especially when there is monetary benefit, for example my minister gets paid a fultime salary. Is he doing it for the money?? Am I gaining from his teaching?? I am sure there are preachers that do, but I don't tar everyone with the same BRUSH.

If you went to a christian thats not in Quixtar they would probably still mention you need to be saved by obeying the gospel and being baptized(emmersed in water) for the remission of sin.(read Acts2 to see how 3,000 were saved).If one is a real christian then sharing the gosel(good news) is one of the main function of a christian.Ten percent, tithe was the law, it was a requirement. Christians are encourage to give as we prosper which can exceed ten percent. You are right Jason you don't have to be an IBO to do that

Quixtar NEVER PREACHED one particular religion but instead extended their opportunity to everyone.I have a question... has anyone of you reading this ever made it to platinum and above level??(honestly asking) you guys are such good critics on Quixtar and the tool system with thoughts and opinions. Well sorry I guess it is a FACT that many of you haven't make money but if you were aspiring to be a great baseketball player would you not adore Mike?? If they show you a Diamonds lifestyle and you wanted to become a diamond would you still Edify Mike to your group??

Come on I am in my twenties, not a KINGPIN but I have followed teaching from my upline and they worked and allowed me to retire the Job. Again can't you tell when some one is just jiving you?? well give some of these IBOs credit and think maybe they are benefiting in some way to be continuing their business.A survey shows that most people get in to make 'Some extra money' alot of them go on to make larger incomes after learning the ropes.

Probably you stop building the Quixtar business, but please don't use religious beliefs, manipulation practices or even Amway as an excuse because the business works and is working for alot of people.What you guys have in common which I find amazing is that you only met the ones that didn't make it or the ones that took advantage of them. This blog is a therapy for X-IBOs and W-IBOs(would have been business owners)

PJ Happy IBO

Posted by: pj | September 7, 2004 1:21 AM

pj,

I never intended to tar everyone in Quixtar with the same brush, as you suggested. I believe that a minimum of 90% of the people in Quixtar are good, honest people who are indeed just trying to build a business. I merely stated that religion has always been a guise for corrupt people to take advantage of good people. I concede that I should not have said "Quixtar is ferverent about religion", instead I should have said that "the leaders in some AMOs are ferverent about religion".

I am not a failed, bitter IBO who takes pot shots at Quixtar. I am not using religion or anything else as "an excuse" for ending my relationship with Quixtar. I tried it and found that their products weren't priced competitively. At that point I decided that if I didn't like the prices, why should I sell their products to others and recruit other people to do the same?

I work at a J.O.B. (a term I find very amusing, since I am nowhere near broke) that pays a salary based on an hourly rate for 40 hours per week. I also value my free time greatly. If I am going to do extra work, I expect to be compensated at an equivalent hourly rate. That's just me. Some people don't mind putting in many more hours for a little extra money. When I was doing Quixtar it became very clear to me that I would have to spend every available night and weekend to build the business to make any significant income from it. The equivalent hourly rate for most people to do that is minimum wage or less. Therefore, if I wanted a second job I would have been much better off being a night manager at a video rental store. They pay $25,000 a year and you don't have to drive 50,000 miles a year to attend functions.

My point is that Quixtar didn't make sense to me from a dollars and cents standpoint, and on the two different levels I described. That is why I left. I am not bashing religion and I am not bashing AMOs for endorsing religion. I am just suggesting that some of the leaders have other motives for doing it.

Posted by: Waymee | September 7, 2004 7:10 AM

PJ,

[Quote]I am a Christian and enjoy the business because I don't have to compromise on Christian principles. [/quote]

What are you referring to exactly?Tell me what's in a NORMAL, FUNCTIONAL, PROFFITABLE, BUSINEES that WOULD go against your “Christen Beliefs"?the fact that you can't separate "Business" from "Beliefe" is troubling? People are invited to "Business Meetings" so that you can gradually show them the "light of the world"? That's really sad.

Posted by: Alympia | September 7, 2004 6:28 PM

Hey Alympia if I could'nt seperate Business from Beliefs, I probably would not have so many people of other religion on my team.People are invited to meetings to get into business and make money which lead to a better life for themselves.If I share the gospel with someone along the line I see this as an added benefit to a friendship developed.(no complaints so far)

Since I am responding to sevaral comments on how business is done, not every comment is meant for one particular writer guys.

I now understand your decision(Waymee). I had two jobs when I started and both paid by the hour. When most businesses get started the owner works endlessly to get it off the ground and may not take home any profits for a while. The time comes where he may then pay employees by the hour while he makes an exponential income. I have left those jobs four years now and Live of my Quixtar income. I didn't build it every night and weekend either but instead got alot of help from my upline.

I have business in other states and countries but I have never been there, so I plugged people into the meetings even when I was working the jobs.So its not realy about quixtar vs the JOB but more or less linear income vs exponential. J. Paul Getty wrote a book talking about some of these principles. Robert Kiyosaki's books covers this point as well.The other factor is once you lose your ability to perform hourly the income stops.Another example is that when I used to sell cellular phones I got paid a salary and that was cool. Meanwhile the company kept making a profit every month that person payed a bill. What if At&t did a promotion where by they would compensate me for the life of the customers business instead of a one
shot deal everytime? That would increase my incentive and their revenues so in a nut shell thats what quixtar did by allowing you to continously profit from the business that you helped them create.That goes beyong the nine to five job.(not counting time in traffic or commute)

Alot of people are looking for alternatives because of layoffs, or they realize that even if they remain till 70 there may not be social security. Its these people I mainly seek and show them this opportunity as I volunteer to help them build their network.

In fact a good example is preparing to be a C.P.A....studying for hours, buying books, attending seminars and probably not getting compensated as you are on the way to becoming certified. You made an investment then to apply what you learn as a career to make money.I am obviously not trying to recruit you but giving you my point of view and stand points on which I made my decisions to do the business. Alot of the religious explanations was intended for DRJ.Have a good day guys.

Posted by: pj | September 8, 2004 4:48 AM

pj,

First of all I wish you continued success in building your Quixtar business. I agree with most of what you have said. I think that the only place where we differ is our view of Quixtar as a long-term viable business model.

I would like to add a little to the excellent example you made about linear income versus exponential income. It is possible to get that benefit without becoming a business owner. Every person who contributes pre-tax dollars to a 401(k) or 403(b) is getting exponential income. People who are eligible and contribute after-tax dollars to a Roth IRA are really cutting a fat hog. I say all this because time and again I see Quixtar IBOs try to incite fear by saying Social Security is going away, 95% of people are broke at retirement, you name it. They try to convince people that they will never become financially independent by working for someone else. I'm here to tell you that it just ain't so.

I take issue with Robert Kiyosaki as a Personal Finance Oracle. I haven't read his entire body of work, but Rich Dad Poor Dad is not helpful. I have not read any J. Paul Getty. Which book of his were you referring to? I will go pick it up. In the meantime, I will recommend "The Millionaire Next Door" by Thomas Stanley and William Danko as required reading for anyone who needs to get their financial house in order.

Posted by: Waymee | September 8, 2004 6:45 AM

The abuse of Christianity may or may not be in Quixtar groups - got it. Still, I don't think the Pope's an IBO.

You do not have to be a Christian to be in Quixtar - got it.

OK, can I join Quixtar without being in a Britt/TOD/Passport, if it is truly offered to everyone?

Posted by: Porkchopjim | September 8, 2004 10:07 AM

Whether one believes in Christianity or not should not matter when it comes to the business, but the Quixtar groups have made it part of their seminars when the Quixtar involved speakers talk on stage about their political beliefs, as well as, their religion, being saved at a function, etc. The Sunday morning worship service at functions, from what I thought, is supposed to be for people who are out of town and would likely otherwise miss their regular home worship service. That some people have decided to "get saved" at these services is an extra "bonus" for Quixtar to use to keep people involved, because inevitably, when they want an IBO to choose between a business activity like seminars, prospecting, showing the plan or helping out at their church, I have heard many use references to not giving up your time volunteering for nothing when you could be building your business to make money and in the future when you are rich you'll have more time for those kind of activities. If someone is having doubts about their group, look at all of the aspects of it and realize that many group members will talk about being religious and may well be, but at the same time many as I have experienced and have saw here and elsewhere online will ask the IBO to choose business related activities over a church involved activity most if not all of the time. These are just my experiences and opinions.

Posted by: lisa | September 8, 2004 4:51 PM

Hey lisa there are some church activites that I may miss as I build my business.Worship in not one of them and the final decision is made by me. When I had the Job I had little or no choice for many of those activities. I would say I had a good job and it allowed for worship but little time for anything else. I may miss the bake sale or a youth rally at times but my mission of helping people continues and this business provides a great vehicle.

I have time now for even more activities at the church since I retired the Jobs. I tell people what events are coming up and based on the time frame of their goals they can decide how much of a priority this business is.Since I know I want to get diamond done sooner that later, when I interview people I tend to ask questions like

What do you want?
When do you want it?
What are you willing to shift around to get it?

I am not going to push that person to hit my goals rather I would attached theirs some where to mine.In fact there are times that I advise people to become a client for the time being, because I didn't want to waste their time as well as mine.

Some time IBOs lack people skills, become managers rather than coaches, or are only concern with hitting a pin. Thats why the books are there and everyone can develop in these areas if they choose to. In fact these may be the reason why some people take longer that others to make it....because after all its a people business.

Now when these BIG Pins get on stage they are telling you what they did to make it. They are telling you the source that they believe their ability to make it came from. Weather you agree with them or not Quixtar still pays on volume and I am sorry you had those experiences.

PJ happy IBO.

Posted by: pj | September 9, 2004 3:17 AM

Porkchop Jim....I am not sure I underatand your question but of course you can join Quixtar without being part of Britt/TOD/Passport. There are many organizations out there that has a 'SYSTEM' and others that don't.

There are organizations that are not part of Britt line of sponsorship, but chose to tie-in...for example W.W.D.B organization. If you have a problem with tools, systems and these bigger organizations then have quixtar place you somewhere else if you still think its a great business.

I don't know if the Pope is an IBO either. Did you ever show him the plan??????

P.J Happy IBO

Posted by: pj | September 9, 2004 3:32 AM

Waymee...I think that book is excellent too. What I also find is that alot of people are not aware of what taking place around them, and that may be a lack of reading on their path.

People come to these presentations looking most of the time. If they were totally satisfied with their current form of incomes they would not be seeking other opportunities.

For every 100 People Who are 65++
45% are financially dependent on relatives
30% are live on Charity
23% are still working
only 2% are self sustaining in retirement

This is From the Social Security Adminstration.

The Swiss America Reseach Department, I believe in their March publication broke it down. This system is not ready for the Baby Boomers that are going to withdraw. Even Alan Greenspan himself said so. There were about 16 payees into Social Security per 1 drawee, its going to be down to three pretty soon.

The life expectancy was 56 when they came up with the retirement age of 65(go figure). This age has been steadily increasing every year. Now check out July 29 2002 issue of time Magazine, which on the cover an old lady as a waiter with a headline called...WILL YOU EVER BE ABLE TO RETIRE.There is an interesting article inside about lady from N>Y who invest in some tax atvantaged accounts but lost over 400,000 when stocks fell.

May26th 2003 issue of Time Mag, for a cover story has an executive with a tweezer holding an Ity Bity paycheck saying HEY WHERES MY RAISE. In it there is an interesting article on page 48 that says financial-services firms say they plan to transfer 500,000 U.S jobs to foreign countries over the next five years.

Business Week May 31 2004(more recent huh) for a cover story WORKING AND POOR...one in four workers earns $18,800 a year or less, with few if any benefits. It has a picture of Katrina Gill, a nurses Aide in Portland.

What happens with a person 401k when they are layed off, dejobbbed, downsized,fired etc??? is it affected??(honestly asking) Delta is about to lay off 7,000 people over the next 18 months.

I am not saying that Quixtar is the only way to make it financially, most people will go back and search for another Job and another job. IBOs didn't make these statistics that are updated almost daily.

approx. 1.3 million filed for bankruptcy for the year and most of them were middle age. At twenty three I got started in business and I havn't seen IBO's layed off at any point. I have accountants and CPA's on my team too.They are talking to people about the benefits of owning a homebased business in addition to the JOB.

Personal choices has alot to do with finances and one can curb his lifestyle cutting out alot of dreams to match his income and settle.I usually start my meetings by asking ...how many people believe that you can't get wealthy working for the other guy? everyone with out fail raises their hands. Then I ask how many people do work for the other guy and the only hands usually remaining down are business owners(anytype) and the people that are currently dejobbbbed.

PJ Happy IBO...

Posted by: pj | September 9, 2004 4:32 AM

Hey Alympia if I could'nt seperate Business from Beliefs, I probably would not have so many people of other religion on my team.People are invited to meetings to get into business and make money which lead to a better life for themselves.If I share the gospel with someone along the line I see this as an added benefit to a friendship developed.(no complaints so far)

PJ,
WTF!!! Share the "Gospel" eh!! You really should keep that sh*t to your self.

Posted by: Alympia | September 9, 2004 6:23 AM

pj,

Great post about the pitfalls and problems with the outdated notion that you can just show up at a job for thirty years and then your pension and social security will provide for you.

Social Security is not going away. It would be political suicide. Yes, the program will become insolvent in about twenty years with no further intervention, but it will be tweaked again at some point. SS was going to be insolvent back in the 70s too, and the benefit age was raised to keep it going. Eventually the benefit age will be raised again and the benefit amount will be lowered.

I, too, read the horror stories about people who had their entire 401(k) melt down a few years ago. That was a flaw of their asset allocation, not a flaw of the 401(k) program. People who had most of their money tied up in tech stocks or their own company stock set themselves up for a fall. To answer your question about 401(k) money when a person loses their job, it is still their money. Is that what you were asking? That person would (should) roll the money over into an individual IRA and then keep getting tax-deferred (exponential) growth until a minimum of age 59 1/2. There are also some circumstances where a person could get access to the money with out paying the normal 10% penalty, such as disability or reimbursement of medical expenses in excess of 7.5% of their AGI.

I guess the thing that really irks me is when people - not just IBOs, although they certainly do - proclaim that you can't get financially independent working for someoine else and you will be broke in retirement with no social security. It's bull. People who put away the maximum amount into retirement accounts and never touch it can retire with their same income before age 62. It is, as you said, a personal choice. You should check out the Retire Early Home Page at retireearlyhomepage.com. John Greaney, the site's creator, felt the same way that Quixtar IBOs do about working for someone else. He didn't want to do it. So what did he do? He saved as much money as he possibly could and retired - AT AGE 38! It can certainly be done without owning your own business.

Posted by: Waymee | September 9, 2004 7:48 AM

Alympia I am assuming WTF to mean a new title for your self 'Weary Tired Female'(hence typing one short retarded sentence). I am also sure, although not in those exact words, your line was the response of many people to the Apostles.....birds of a feather can flock together when you get there.........

Waymee thanks for answering on the 401k subject.Retirement is already looking up to the 70's and they only can raise the age but so high to retire age. In your 70's you don't retire....you expire. If you take a good S.S payout its usually still not enough for most to survive, especially with more medical need and inflation increase over the thirty or fourty years they have been working their way up.

The fedral budget is already $521 billion in the red and Greenspan warned it will get worse as 77million baby boomers start retiring in four years. In the seventies they didn't have to deal with this situation yet. Thats why alot of people are so hopeful, because surely some political hero must fix it.

You can only save as much as you make(assuming less living expenses) when you make as long as you can make. Those people getting layed off daily are surely dipping into savings during their transition period. I know of some older folks that saved well and are financially free now....except most of their life is gone and the kids are grown.

The good thing about investments is that it can grow exponentially and even while you sleep, however its usually over the long long haul and two ways you can contribute to your chances of gaining more with stocks is prayers and taking a bigger risk, more money.There are people that invested in great companies that are no longer here today.

When a high paid employee loses his/her job, most ohter companies don't pay them what they use to make, they pay what the current job is worth. Infact even Execs and C.E.O's are getting dejobbed today. That car, house, private school and country club still has to be paid for.You can't pass on the Job to your kids in a will but with your quixtar business, that possibilty exist.

When a person owns a traditional business, he isn't making money while the store is closed. He is usually the mastermind behind everything and thats why alot businesses owns the business owners and vacations become a Dream.

Quixtar can provide first of all a supplementry income and eventually a primary income. Again we already established that it isn't the only alternative but for the price, team support , mentorship, residuals, partnership of other companies, while still keeping that current form of income...is hard to beat.

The franchising nature that crosses racial, sex, international and religious barriers beats corperate America in general hands down.These and many more are some reasons why people get attracted to this business and Manipulation is not necessary.

Quixtar's plan (adapted fom sister company Amway) has stood the test of time and the test of critics. Jodi Victor is a good example of having his fathers business, then his own and now his son is platinum or above too. Thats three generations covered and not to mention the vast numbers of parents and kids succeeding in business.

Come on , a one stop shopping portal that rewards on both personal and referal shopping. A liability insurance policy for about $5 a year plus quixtar handles the site upates, the warehousing and credit cards... I know alot people see this but few understand the potential. The foreign markets are kicking butt because most of these foreigners are not looking for good packages and teeth benifits.....they are looking to own American based business.

I will visit that site you mentioned.However I must say, that I have met alot more IBos that are in their twenties and thirties than people who can say they did it with JOBs.....probably its just the ones I come into cantact with.

I say all this to say that I do seethe Quixtar opportunity as being a viable and long term income

P.J Happy IBO

Posted by: pj | September 10, 2004 4:38 AM

PJ -

Slinging numbers showing that most seniors do not have the resources present to successfully retire is a thinly veiled attempt to distract people from the numbers showing that Quixtar is a proven dog. Just saying that it works for you is not enough. We have consistently asked for numbers - but all we get are facts and figures wholly unrelated to ‘the business’ - budget deficits, outsourcing, blah - blah - blah... The closest we have gotten from anyone is that ‘it is a proven opportunity, not a proven outcome.’ So’s the lottery, and apparently the odds of success in Quixtar and winning the jackpot are comparable. Those number we have, and it’s a known sucker’s bet.

Posted by: Porkchopjim | September 11, 2004 1:01 PM

Porkchop, I have to start with the fact that it worked me. other wise why defend the business with so much passion. If you can't watch and learn from the seniors present peril while still doing what they did(depend solely on a job) then thats planning to fail financially with flying colors.

Proven Dog by who? Its a proven opportunity because in has worked for people...outcome is up to you. Just based on the question you put forth earlier tells me that you don't even understand the quixtar business.

Posted by: pj | September 12, 2004 12:18 AM

PJ,

My questions before showed that I don’t understand how you can join Quixtar without getting involved in an AMO - not that I don’t understand the business.

Your non-answer on the other issue leaves me two options:

- If you WON’T provide any supporting evidence that your business works, then I am left to assume that you are hiding something and only defend it so passionately because it both helps to perpetrate the fraud and comfort you in this difficult time.

- If you CAN’T provide any supporting evidence that your business works, then I am left to assume that it is you who does not understand his own business, not me.

Either way, not looking good, buddy.

Posted by: Porkchopjim | September 12, 2004 10:53 AM

Porkchopjim,

You are asking for some info that this individual probably cannot provide. It seems from the spirit of your message, that you want to be “one up” on PJ.

The very fact that some people receive compensation cheques from Quixtar means that it works. How much, and how well they balance their books is relative to the individual. What do you want PJ to do? Go to a “diamonds” house and ask for his complete accounting of his business?

I think your “assumptions” show little in the way of tolerance.

Considering the fact that roughly 80% of all businesses fail in the first 5 years, the Quixtar opportunity should not be any exception. There is a very strong chance that the individual launching HIS/HER Quixtar business WILL fail according to these stats. I do, however, give you credit for trying, PJ, with a business that has many negative obstacles to contend with.

-Evan

Posted by: Evan | September 14, 2004 3:02 PM

Evan,

I agree. I don't have much tolerance. But I'm not the one singing the praises of an 'business opportunity' that gives you more of the business than opportunity.

If PJ's goal is to go Diamond, he has an amazing .17% chance of doing that. That means, given any amount of time - not just 5 years - he has a 99.83% of failing. Not 80% for a 'normal' business.

He's not speaking for diamonds, though, he was speaking for himself. Just as diamonds seem to support their lifestyles with income secondary to selling products through Quixtar, most of the 'success' seems to be without merit. At an average return of $115/IBO/mo - given the minimum 10 hours per week and NOT COUNTING ANY EXPENSES (BSMs, Gas, IBO fees, shipping, etc.) the AVERAGE compensation for IBO's is $2.88/hr.

How could I possibly 'one up' that?

Posted by: Porkchopjim | September 14, 2004 9:49 PM

WAIT! WAIT!

I am way off on my percentages, by about a couple of orders of magnitude.

1:13,000 Diamond = 99.992% don't make it.

My numbers below are much closer to Q12 = 99.86% don't make that.

WOOF said the DOG. I admit my mistakes when I make them. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to give anyone false hopes through inflated statistics!

Posted by: Porkchopjim | September 17, 2004 2:57 PM