TOD v. Scott Larsen

Perhaps TOD (and, maybe Quixtar) is banking on the fact that, sooner or later, Scott will run out of money to be able to defend himself from them.

It wouldn't be the first time this has happened in the courts.

Loser pays, anyone?

Posted by: Doug | August 3, 2004 11:01 AM

Qblog –

What a sad state of affairs! It seems to me that Orrin Woodward has created trademarks and other materials owned by him and that he has the right to protect his assets when someone steals or illegally uses them. Isn’t that what Scott Larsen has done? I’m sure that the development of these materials by Orrin Woodward is the result of considerable effort and expense. It appears Team of Destiny, through their attorney, has attempted to work with Scott Larsen regarding these matters, without success. So the next step, which Orrin Woodward has taken, is to get help from the legal system. Your spin appears bias towards Scott Larsen, even though you don’t have all the facts.

And regarding The People vs. Larry Flynt case, I believe this country took a big step backwards on this one. I understand that the liberal media saw this landmark case as a victory for the freedom of speech, but I have kids I’m trying to raise, and I saw this case as a weakening of the moral values of this country. But many of my beliefs, I’m sad to say, have left me in the minority. I believe in things like displaying the 10 Commandments in court houses, reciting The Pledge of Allegiance at public schools, and allowing the Boy Scouts of America to discriminate against gays.

I appreciate the opportunity to search the web for all information available on a particular subject. The web can be a useful tool, though I’m no fool. I don’t believe everything I read and I do try and understand the motives of those providing the information. I just wish more of the “authors” of web content out there chose to hold themselves to a higher standard. Maybe one day?

Posted by: tim | August 3, 2004 12:37 PM

Tim, the right of free speech is one of the, if not the most basic of all rights guananteed by the Constitution. This means people have the right to say things you will not like, including things you do no want your children to read or hear. It is your responsibility, not the governments, to censure things for your children, and just because you and potentially the majority of Americans do not agree, you still have no right to deny anyone else from the speech you deem inapropriate.

As for copyright infringement on Scott's site, that will be very tough to prove. Public information is allowed to be reproduced in segments depending on the purpose. Clearly an "open" meeting and any TOD tapes, which can be purchased by anyone are public information. And while there is a fine line, Scott's intent is not to smear TOD and Orrin, but to present his argument about the Quixtar business opportunity being a poor one. TOD is just a small part of this, and Scott is allowed to use evidence and examples to help prove his point of view. You may disagree, tim, but Scott does have Constitutional protection, and while certain things such as the Orrin parady alone may seem objectionable, one must look at the whole body of work to see, in context, just what Scott is trying to acheive.

Personally, I hope Scott has a good lawyer who knows the net very well and responds to several of the mistakes and problems as a reason to get the whole lawsuit thrown out. Judges generally don't like sloppy work, and it looks like Orrin hired a sloppy lawyer.

Posted by: dmm | August 3, 2004 1:29 PM

Hey this is great work, the complaint includes all email sent back and forth, and includes the Postma memo....so now it is open for anyone to make available as part of this suit. Whatever injunction that prevented it from being read before, is now moot because it is part of publiv record now...and made so by the TOD lawyers by including it.

Posted by: Roger, Husband of a TOD Brainwashee | August 3, 2004 2:17 PM

I beleive the Titanic MLM is sinking and these Diamonds are getting scared!

Posted by: Ray | August 3, 2004 3:42 PM

I think it would be good for the TOD attorney in the case to read up on "Fair Use" in the copyright law. Of course the TOD attorney knows the law, but is free to misapply it until it goes to a judge. Hopefully the judge will slap his hand for either being incompetent or filing a frivolous lawsuit.

This is a "slapp" suit plain and simple.

Posted by: Fred | August 3, 2004 5:08 PM

Here is the section of law concerning "fair Use"
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

Posted by: Scott | August 4, 2004 6:39 AM

Tired of getting your 'business' mocked on the Web? Clean it up.

And 'I'm trying to raise kids here' Tim, well, uhm, don't let them read Hustler.

There you have it. Next issue.

Posted by: Porkchopjim | August 4, 2004 6:52 PM

Porkchopjim,

I find it very ironic that they're taking Larsen to court, and yet, I remember hearing diamonds on stage speaking about what a shame it was we live in such a litigous(sp?) society, and how people taking others to court meant they were a bunch of cry babies who couldn't handle their own problems.

...and Scott explicitly remembered the smell,

when the other shoe.....fell.........

But that's just me:)

Posted by: scott | August 4, 2004 9:43 PM

Yup. It's not just you, by the way.

Posted by: Porkchopjim | August 13, 2004 5:53 PM

I am new to all of this. I went on line to find information about a buying club I heard about and found several sites discussing IBOs (whatever they are) and a few other names that I think are companiesz that operate as MLMs. Anyway, I am amazed at the tone of the the emails I have read today. The arogant, name calling of those who claim to be happily invoved with MLN's is off-putting. If, as you clain, you have truth, justice and the American way on your side why so vehement? Before you through me in to your "liberal" camp, I am a very, very conserverative person who believes in famiily values, morals, etc. however, being santimonious will never win the day. Take a chill pill and speak the truth in love. If as you claim, you are in the right, just post the facts and figures and let them do the talking. If not, I suggest you get another "religion." Thanks for letting me exercise my first amendment rights.

Posted by: Brenda | September 8, 2004 11:46 AM

Okay - so I'm confused as I pulled this site up... Are you giving pros or cons for the Team of Destiny affiliation, or whatever they call themselves? I have been approached by some IBO's, and need more information, if someone would be so kind as to reply via e-mail and give me some enlightening information, please! WarrenPBS@hotmail.com

Posted by: Wanda | September 22, 2004 9:01 PM

I encourage everyone to seek out an open meeting in your area for TEAM. Start building your dreams not someone elses.

Posted by: jaire | June 4, 2005 7:14 PM

I've watched my friend of 8 years become a mindless zombie because of Amway/Quixtar. He doesn't have one rational thought in his head and constantly quotes what others have said to answer questions of skepticism. He's alienated not only his friends, but his girlfriend and family as well. All he ever talks about is how he'll make millions someday because these so called multi-millionaires in the business tell him with hard work and a dream it will happen. He's not the same person anymore. He's a shell of his former self and unable to think for himself. He constantly goes to someone he met in this "business" for advice on things like buying a car, not to mention he's told to stay clear of people that have a "negative" influence on him (in other words people that are negative towards Amway or Quixtar whatever it's called). I actually heard him tell his girlfriend if she wouldn't support him he has no choice but to leave her because nobody is going to stand in the way of his dream. Sorry but that's not my friend talking it's somebody else that has completely destroyed him as a once friendly, outgoing and lovable person. Anyone that is thinking of getting into this thing please I beg of you. STAY CLEAR!!!!

Posted by: Tony | July 20, 2005 1:27 PM

i just got back from a meeting with a quixtar IBO. My impressions were that it was too good to be true, and apparently it is. You'll end up spending more money on products thinking you're saving it somewhere else or earning superficial bonuses. This requires you to invest years(5-6), and little by little, you'll actually spend more than you earn. It is indeed very idealistic and cult like. I mean, who doesn't want to earn a million dollars and retire by 25 or 30?(as i was told anyway.) The focus really is more on finding new suckers than what they really want you to do:buy buy buy from Quixtar online affiliates exclusively. IBOs are merely wolves in sheeps clothing. They pretend to know you or know people you're close to when they really just want another pawn to control through the "upline." They appeal to the naive, poor, desperate, and gullible. I first heard about this from another college student. Likewise, anyone who's gone through higher education knows how poor and desperate for "a little money on the side" college kids, like myself, are. It went from "having a few extra bucks to spend" to "you can make thousands and be ready to retire" in a matter of minutes. Its deceptively simple, while the IBO was deceptively charming. This e-commerce business is no different than any other big conglomeration. They just want your hard earned cash. Think about it. Any business that needs YOU and YOUR FRIENDS way more than you need it is more than likely a scam.

Posted by: Rich | September 25, 2005 8:58 PM

If a Quixtar online affiliate will actually pay to get me to see their product I don't see that as being too different from advertising. I think the books they promote are actually very good, well researched books. It seems that I am living my life in the Information age with Industrial age thinking. The jobs are going oversees and the distribution methods have changed. I guess it only makes sense to use the technology offered to me (i.e. the internet) to get the things I would buy anyway and have them delivered to my door. With the gas prices the way they are I would rather use someone elses gas to get most of my stuff. If a company wants to throw a little my way as a way of saying thanks for being loyal I guess that is ok with me. What does the Discover card offer? 1% Hmmmmm.

I don't know why everyone is so angry about this stuff. Did anyone complain that their best friend went to school year after year and poured thousands of dollars out to become a doctor? I think that some friends got left behind there too. I think it is foolish to take anything so seriously that it bedcomes all consuming. Things need to be balanced.

Change creates oppurtunities.

If buying the tools is an issue then think about the mechanic who tells you about your worn out ball joints. You need to make an educated decision on whether or not they are actually worn out. If you can't afford the "tools", don't buy them.

Read Robert Kiyosaki's Cashflow Quadrant and while doing so keep in mind that he is not a member of any MLM or Quixtar or Team of Destiny. Become a 5% thinker with something and succeed, don't stay a 95% thinker and comlain and blame.

Posted by: Mark | October 25, 2005 4:46 AM

Just wanted to add that the reason most people fail at anything is because they tried it in the first place. For example, when you rode your first bike, did you just hop on and start cat walking and jumping over ramps and obstacles? If you were like me when I was a child, you probably fell off and skinned your knees. Do you think that a doctor was born as a doctor and immediately started brain surgery on a patient the instant he/she could talk? No, my guess is that they had to take some form of extensive teaching and training. Look, I know not everyone can be a brain surgeon but, for the most part, most people are capable of investing the time and energy to take the proper classes and training necessary to become a doctor. However, not everyone has the will power to put himself or herself through the struggle to do so. I'm certain that not every doctor passed every test during med school either but do you suppose this means that because they failed one test that they must go home, cry, wet their pants, and become a janitor? No. I believe they restudied the material and took the test over again until they passed it. You see, the opposite of success is NOT failure. The road to success is paved with failure. The opposite of success is QUITTING! I find that most of the people that I talk to who were "involved" with Quixtar (or some form of private franchise/business opportunity program) tell me that the organization was a scam and "all they do is take your money"(of course, I've never seen them held at gunpoint while there up line steals their wallet) when actually the truth is that these individuals did not succeed because they are wimps and they quit but they are not mentally strong enough to publicly admit it and accept responsibility for their own actions.
One thing I will say, I do feel sorry for the people that sincerely invested time and income in their attempt to start a business and did not do all that was necessary to succeed. Little did they know what troubles they could have avoided if only they had a teacher, a trainer, or a mentor that had already been in their position and learned from their mistakes. That’s why the majority of the people generating wealth in the business are associated with a system of teaching and training that helps them learn a business mentality and overcome obstacles. The most powerful system of mentorship I have ever encountered is the World Wide Group organization and World Wide Dream Builders Business Education. If you like great American leaders like John Maxwell (who by the way loves the WWG and does many seminars, specially tailored for people in the association. Here is a website with his material available http://www.maximumimpact.com/) then you won’t want to miss out on the education the WWG has to offer.
To all those that strive for success and financial freedom: I bid thee fair well.
To all those that actively go out of their way to destroy the reputation of companies and organizations that they are bitter and angry against for exposing weaknesses and low self images in lazy individuals: get a life!

Posted by: Truth | December 5, 2005 2:35 PM

I would steer clear of this business. I am an independent sales representative with a beauty business. I have recruited and trained many reps for this beauty company. My father in law joined Team with intense pressure for me to join this company because of tract record in recruiting with the beauty. He persuaded my husband to join. The facts and figures in this business are not spelled out like the business I am in. After questioning the upline in the business as to the details spelling out commissions and percentages with no definte answer my husband was encouraged to leave me. He was counseled "I did not want him to be sucessful." I was a "negative influence" that "he should not let me stand in the way of his dreams." "How bad does he want to make a million" I have been married to my husband for seven years. Now he is not to associate with me, his wife because I am a "negative influence." I have an education in business. They pray on people hopes and dreams. These tactics are highly unethical and they act like a cult. The business tapes put him in some emotional trance with no education as to really build a business, provide no info as to the numbers,just emotional hype. My husband would go into his room and play these tapes over and over till it was time to go to bed. He explain to me he was "plugging into the system." He does not want support us anymore so has more money to spend to be more sucessful in his business. My children went without Christmas presents because the business was more important to him. I feel sorry for him when he comes out of the teamcloud to realize his family was the cost he paid to make or spend a few dollars becasue I can not see where he will turn a real profit.

Posted by: Tracy Fuhrman | December 29, 2005 3:30 AM

I appreciate the opportunity this blog gives for me to exercise my First Amendment rights to speak freely. Thank you.

Here's a bit of dangerously true information, in answer to some of the issues and misunderstandings propogated above:

In years surrounding 1979, the Federal Trade Commission spent 5 years studying the MLM/Network Marketing business form. They especally spent that time looking into everything to do with the Amway business. They concluded that Networking is essentially a form of Franchising- "Re-franchising" as it were, since a new person could purchase a "franchise" opportunity from another franchisee, in that sense, rather that solely from the parent company. The FTC even went as far as to say in effect, that this is a pretty smart business opportunity. Go read the case. It's part of the public domain for those willing and able to find it.

FTC stipulations for keeping the network business system legal required that actual product flow through the network into the hands of final purchasers, that there be retail client purchasers who are not a part of the network of "Independent Business Owners" or IBO's, that profits derive thus from the legitimate sale of product, and that there is not profit for sponsors from merely signing someone up. These are the standards by which such business are judged by the FTC to determine legality and legitimacy.

Amway and Quixtar are careful to follow these stipulations, though it is always possible for individual IBOs to stray from the guidelines they are being taught and the legal forms they signed upon entry into their IBO businesses.

There is a system in place for addressing such instances to the satisfaction of involved parties- up to and including termination of the business of an IBO who intentionally abuses the business in violation of these rules. The corporations are also willing to assist in the prosecution of anyone breaking any applicable laws in the misuse of the legitimate businesses through and for illegitimate means and purposes.

I have no direct source to refer you to, but have heard the following from a fellow former Amway distributor who visited the Amway Headquarters in Ada Michigan in the late 90's, before I left Amway (after years as a happy wholesale customer): At $6-7 Billion per year in gross sales, Amway paid more people a 6-figure income than any other company in the world.

Unfortunately for diligent reporters such as yourselves, that's the kind of information that a privately held company does not need to disclose, and for privacy of those earners, Amway keeps such info confidential. Feel free to research that if you can. There have been a few books written with Amway/Quixtar/Alticor company approval that may bear out a good quote of such figures. I'm sorry that I can't back it up myself at the moment, but I wanted to mention it while disclaiming it as currently bearing the weight of heresay if nothing else.

I do know it's public information on the Quixtar.com site that Quixtar has done over $1 Billion per year the last 3 fiscal years, paying out about 1/3 of that in bonuses to the IBO's, and currently pays out over $1 Million per day to the IBO's who've brought that volume of referral shopping to the Quixtar site.

Those results of paying out 6-figures to more people than any other company are far better than any Fortune 400 privately held company, or Fortune 500 public company. Most people in the world- even in the "free world" developed contries have lots of hope but low success rates of earning even $100,000 per year, ever. According to IRS figures, more than 95% of the US population at age 65 is either dead(doesn't live to 65), broke, or still working. (i.e.; failure to acheive a minimum financial independence by age 65 that will sustain them to life expectancy without needing financial assistance from charity, family, or continuing work incomes) Woohoo! Lets get fired up about that!

The typical pyramidal military and business personnell organization chart depends upon paying scant few at the top such figures, and the many at the bottom far less, in order to remain profitable enough as a company to continue to exist and do business. Such is the business model of the Industrial Age. The Internet+Network "iCommerce" model is the ideal business model of the Information Age which started in about 1989-90.

Don't take my word for it, do your own research. Read the book mentioned above: "Cashflow Quadrant" by Robert Kiyosaki. It's the sequel to his first book, "Rich Dad, Poor Dad". He advises that you should get into some kind of business model that offers a duplicatable business system, potentially resulting in passive income for you the owner. If you can't afford the $200,000 to $2,000,000 to buy a growing proven franchise system, or the millions more and years more to develope your own such business, then buy in as an IBO in a "Refranchising" system- a network marketing business, usually for $200 or less and as few or many hours per week as you wish to put into your business.

Compare that with what it takes to
"buy in" as an entry level corporate employee or self-employed small business owner. An ambitious future employee spends tens of thousands per year getting a higher education, meanwhile typically earning little or nothing but debt. For a future self-employed person, such as a Doctor, this education goes well into the $6-figure range and takes many more years. So much debt accrues that the typical Doctor finally pays off education and practice start-up costs by age 54, when they can finally keep most of what they earn.

Maybe that's why Doctors are the highest percentage profession represented in our INA.net. Maybe they know something about investing in the future, or researching a business until they have enough information to make a good business decision, then getting involved, perhaps?

In fact, I challenge you to realistically look at the pyramidal organization chart of the company you work for, and assess your real chances of ever earning $250,000 per year within your lifetime. Now look at how possible it is for you to also help 6 of your friends acheive that. The corporate pyramid scheme structure is not designed to make the employees rich. It is designed to make the owner and shareholders rich off the employees work. In today's Information Age, you are on your own in securing your personal financial future.

Go ahead and ask your division's Vice President if he will take you under his wing, mentor you and help you eventually achieve the level of financial success he is at, let alone over 2-5 years and at only 10-15 hours per week of workload. Good luck.

I personally know people who have started from 0 and built an organization to that level of success. They did so by helping others acheive their own desired degrees of success, by working as a team.

When a new person joins the system, by the time they build an organization up to where they are earning $250,000, there must mathematically be many more people earning less than that- the newer people they have recruited into the system and helped start and build their businesses. The system does however offer anyone with more ambition or who is just willing to work harder longer, the opportunity to pass up those above them in terms of earning potential.

Its amusing when you offer your friends to become business partners and show them how to save some time and money shopping online, how to make a little money on the side, or make a lot of money by working together part time, and they think you're trying to take advantage of them and disuse the friendship.

I wish my upline business partner and friend had offered to thus take advantage of me years earlier, by helping me create a couple thousand extra per month off 10-15 hours per week of effort. Can you show me a "second job" that can offer those kinds of results??

Above, someone mentioned the Dateline piece. It's interesting that their main source for this was Bo Short, a former Amway and Quixtar distributor, who left and created his own competing business with a very similar structural model. His main assertion that Dateline hammered on was that leaders deigned to make additional money by offering training materials to newer people. Interesting, because I have a training tape of a INA.net/Quixtar seminar by none other than Bo Short himself. Dateline failed to mention what Quixtar explained in a letter to them before the piece aired: that all IBOs sign a disclosure form that explains that all training materials are optional, that the authors of such materials may be paid for producing them, and they should only be purchased by those willing to invest in learning how to build a Quixtar business and willing to make the effort to do so. There's also a grievence system where IBO's can be reimbursed for returning such training items and any unused products if they decide to leave the business. The former IBO's on the program failed to avail themselves of such reimbursement, but of course for airtime they conveniently forgot to mention that Quixtar offered that to them.

Now, Bill Clinton is one of the highest paid speakers and authors in the world. He writes a book and earns royalties every time someone buys a copy. Anthony Robbins makes more off CDs, which are essentially copies of his live seminars. Authors, gurus, trainers, motivational speakers, Executives are routinely paid to train employees at companies of all sizes using live, audio and print formats, and no one denies that they should be paid for their work of preparing and delivering their messages to their audiences.

So too with leaders in any MLM, trying to convey exactly how to succeed in this specific unique business model to those who wish to learn such. Such seminars, CD's or tapes are optional, and should only be purchased by those who intend to build their business towards a profit over such legitimate expenses.

The same applies to anyone seeking a higher education in a specific line of work, like Lawyering, Doctoring, Appraising, or business management. Oh, by the way, they're often tax deductible, like any legitimate business expense, including training courses and materials. So in a manner of speaking, the IRS pays for a portion of them for us in a sort of rebate in our lowered tax bills. The same could apply for investing in yourself through purchasing an MBA course's training materials.

Finally, if you don't put out the effort to make yourself a success in your newly trained field, it's not the fault of the school. At least at our "school", the "professors" are willing essentially to take you under wing and help you get started.

All we really do in the Quixtar business is:

1) buy the kind of products we all need to buy from somewhere anyway. Like many sharp busy people these days, we prefer to shop online. We direct our existing household purchasing needs to a specific website company that makes it quicker and more convenient to do all our shopping in one place. Then we answer the door 2 days later for the UPS delivery. Quick and Convenient.

2) We refer people to our online mall- Quixtar.com, in the same manner as people everywhere tell their friends about the latest movie they enjoy, or where they got the "cute outfit" or new car that the friend commented upon and asked "where'd you get that?". We refer them instead into OUR link to our distribution system/mall, Quixtar.com, because Quixtar pays out "the advertising budget" in a very real sense, to those of us who refer the business to them. Your company pays you a portion of what you contibute to their gross or net profits... Same=same.

Other online companies blow billions annoying people with their advertising, in the form of pop-ups, spam, banners, and infomercials referring to their website for purchase. Their success rate has been studied and rated at something like 1 out of 200 "eyeball views" ends in a customer purchase. The rest of us are just annoyed, and spend our money on software programs to not have to be annoyed by such online advertising.

Results vary, but typical results in referring people to the Quixtar opportunity, or to be a wholesale or retail customer as alternatives, are much higher for most people who make a reasonable, practiced and informed effort- especially for those who allow their experienced upline business partners to help them through the process as a team effort for mutual benefit.

3) Finally, we all share in the profits. Based upon the volume of referral business we individually and as a group have referred to the Quixtar system, they pay us the advertising budget portion of the purchase price of the group.

The average household spends about $300-1000 per month on the kind of everyday shopping items that Quixtar offers. The government estimates the typical American household average is $770/ month of such discretionary spending going out to retailers and websites who pay back nothing in return, other than the product purchased, of course.

Those who refer no one to the Quixtar system rightfully earn nothing, but might purchase enough to get a small rebate back on their own purchases. Walmart does not offer either that deal nor merchandise of high enough quality to earn my purchasing budget, let alone my loyalty. I know of no other retailer or e-tailer making such an offer.

Now, some IBOs are content to just shop at a discount and don't try to share the business opportunity aspect of Quixtar with others. They really should have become a "Member" and just buy at a discount from the start. Maybe they will decide in the future to build their business, maybe they will redesignate as a Member. This doesn't mean they have "Falied to be made profitable" by their upline or the system. It just means they are either new or don't share either the business opportunity or their personal shopping page with anyone, and so don't share the profits. Any online business that NO ONE ever knows about, has no chance to make any money. It's up to the IBO to "advertise" their business.

It's like Michael Dell writes about his "3 C's" concept; the ideal businesses of the future will develope compelling Content that drives Commerce from a loyal Community of customers. Quixtar offers the Content and manages the Commerce aspect for me. INA.net teaches me how to develope the Community of people.

I prefer to offer everyone the same deal: I spend about 45 mins to an hour with them, taking them to my online presentation at nelsongroup.ina.net. I read off my notecards and show them the basic business plan we follow that they can work for about 5-15 hours per week learning and referring people to Quixtar. That way, I can never take advantage of anyone. The way I do this, I'm essentially offering to go to work for them helping grow their business. The team effort INA teaches helps grow their business in a uniquely effective way that you really can't understand without watching it happen over time. If after seeing a minimum of information they don't quite see it the way I do, I ask again if they ever have shopped online? If so, I refer them to my personal Quixtar shopping portal and just leave them with this: "If you never buy anything there, no problem. It won't hurt my feelings or effect our relationship. If you do order "from me" something you need from somewhere anyway, great! If anything changes for you as for the business aspect, give me a call." Real sales and recruiting pressures, huh?

So, if you decide to go into a new line of work, do you think maybe you would benefit from some training? When I went from the grocery business to doing customer service for GM, the subcontractor spent thousands of dollars training me. I had to buy a new, more professional wardrobe to work with my brain than when I worked with my hands.

Later, when my brother convinced me to go into the Real Estate Appraisal business with him, I spent thousands of dollars on pre-liscensing courses and seminars, printed materials, basic business supplies, a new laptop computer, GAS(!!), professional clothing, etc., etc,... I had to keep spending money on many of those, especially ongoing educational courses for reliscencing, GAS(!!), website maintenence, appraisal association fees, etc., etc. ad infinitum. Our expenses ate a huge portion of our gross profits. We had to visit prospective clients- bankers and lenders- in their office, show them our business and make our case for why they should refer their apprasals to us instead of our competitors they currently used. Rejection is the norm. It's a rough business to get into if you take such things personally.

My brother and I did test a particular efficient new business model for doing real estate appraisals, and talked about taking in more people, training them, franchising the idea... and growing it until we personally had to do little of the work to enjoy our share of the profits of the large business we created through helping other people make more money with less time via our new idea business model... Sadly, we never got there due to lack of funding. Expenses, while deductible, ate too much income to build up what we needed to make that work. We didn't want to have to go that much further into debt just to get started. Our choice.

The point is, this is very similar to the idea of creating any MLM. Coming from the outside Employee, Self Employed or standard Business Owner frames of education and experience, you probably don't know how to create a large and successful networking business. It's just different enough in form and results that there's no instinctive understanding until you've been immersed in it long enough, learned enough, especially practiced enough to get a feel for it. You need to learn how. Conversely, you need to be taught how and helped to get started. So, in INA's system, we who have experience and know how help the newcomers reach results, by working with you. Enter the IBO association's training programs, materials, events, and systems.

You wouldn't seek advice from burned out former low-level executives who never made it past enrty level management, on how to climb the corporate ladder, right? You'd want a fast-track Vice President or better to mentor you. Of course. Similar to paying to take MBA courses just to keep your middling job in the more familiar pyramid scheme known as the corporate personnel structure, in an MLM, you need to learn how successful IBO's have built their businesses, so you can duplicate what works rather than wasting time and money trying many random things that don't work.

You wouldn't seek out the advice of unsuccessful current or former IBO's on how to successfully build your business. Obviously they couldn't tell you anything of value with any credibility about how to do what it takes to succeed, because they haven't done so themselves, nor helped others succeed for themselves. That just makes common sense to anyone, right?

When I was in business school, the professors with the most credibility were those current business owners and executives who were moonlighting by teaching a course or two in the entrepreneurship section, They were obviously defying the conventional wisdom that "those who can't, teach." Just as obvious, they had a huge advantage when we students were looking for internships each summer... but we felt we were both using the relationship to our mutual business advantage, not being taken advantage of.

It's important to note, logic dictates that you can only create a large successful and profitable network organization by helping other people create large organizations of their own within yours. i.e.; helping others make money for their own goals and purposes. It's akin to starting a business where you hire many people. Some are at different earning levels based on different skill levels and areas, and ultimately, what they personally contibute to the bottom line. The owner makes a percentage profit off the efforts of everyones work within their business. It's all the same, except for the share you take away from the table, and your rightful share that's taken away from your family's table by the business owners you work for.

In summary, I think you have to ask yourself four important questions:

1) Do you shop for stuff? Everyday things like soaps, food, car fluids and tires, pet food, laundry stuff, bathroom stuff, vitamins, etc?

2) Do you/have you ever inadvertantly refered people to such goods, services, and the businesses that sell them? By talking about movies you liked or telling your friends where you bought the shirt they like or whatever?

3) Who's profiting from your family's shopping and referrals? Your family, or the families that own the businesses you shop at and refer people to already?

4) Are you happy with your answer to #3 there? If it's time for you and your family to benefit from your existing habits of shopping and referrals, maybe you should do some more research and look into this form of business. After all, if the Doctors, Accountants, Lawyers, and such professionals who are my business partners researched it and joined up, what did they see in it that you haven't yet?

Some people just don't get that. That's okay. Those of us who do will always have basic fallback jobs to offer you. We'll continue to need UPS drivers, dry cleaners, maids, automakers, vacation destination workers, webmasters and software engineers, lawncare workers, healthcare professionals, caddies, etc., and countless others in the service economy.

We'll also need the US military, which helps us keep secure the real American Dream of business ownership and the greater rewards thereof for us few Americans with ambition and a personal goal of a better lifestyle for our own family that's worth working towards harder and especially smarter than others are apparently and unfortunatley willing to. I thank you all.

micheal.nelson can be rebutted at gmail.com

Posted by: Micheal | March 3, 2006 11:20 AM

too much to read watch the dateline special and always keep in mind the famous words your parents told you if it sounds to good to be true... ughh must stop I can't believe I'm quoting my parents here just watch

http://cpserverp4.com/bo/dateline_quixtar.wmv

Posted by: prophet | March 26, 2006 5:48 AM

To all the readers. I am a very satisfied Independent Business Owner. I also build the business and it is going better than ever! Wow a few years ago I valued a Bo Short tape and learned much about prospecting and helping people because of this man. Now after watching dateline and learning how Bo Short really fell short no pun entended. I am very thankful that he once had a dream! I have learned much from that one tape he put out a few years back. However as time has gone on my business just keeps getting better along with the positive people. I know that from dateline there will alwasys be people that drag others down because of their negative behavior. Jesus Christ was crucified by this behavior!

Well what I am thankful for is no matter how much negative is put out there positive people still move forward. I am also glad for my first ammendment rights and am thankful to be an IBO with a thriving support team with great leadership! So, as for Bo Short I wish him well but watch Coach Todd in many years to come motivate many people just like Bo once did. It is sad that some great people cannot keep there integrity to the people they once started with. It is almost like a Darth Vaider Star Wars Theme this Dateline thing. I watched it and thought what a Joke. It is too bad that others will take the negative and stop themselves from improving there lives. You know I spent some time around Danny Thomas a famous person that started St. Judes Hospital in Memphis Tenn. If you go look at that site you will find that dreams do come true and help people. Danny is trully a hero in my life because I am a patient of the hospital and a cancer survivor along with manay others. Wow, that is why I know that any one reading this can also have there dreams come true and help many others also by starting their own business.

I am fortunate that my coaching back ground has kept me grounded and loyal to the Support Team I started with and the Team I am building. To others that read this remember the old tape by Bo Short was they call it Practice. To bad the guy does not still practice what he once preached. If you are skeptical this business is probably not for you. Remember this is an opportunity that helps people and it works no matter what so many negative people say. Wow I can remember when I started teaching. I thought that was the best profession. You know, alot of people quit that profession also, I guess teaching kids is bad also? To those of you that wonder if this works all I can say is this try it you might like it. The worst thing that can happen is you will make some great friends and probably succeed if you don't quit. To this day I am so glad I started my own business. Also, if you read this Bo Short thanks for you words of encouragement on your old tape its called practice. I guess I will have to remake one similar but on a brand new CD or DVD.

Sincerely

Tiger Enterpises

Posted by: Todd | April 21, 2006 7:27 PM

If all TEAM/TOD's lawyer can complain on the hundreds of pages on Scott's website is the use of their name, that speaks volumes to the credibility of the site.

Thanks a lot, Orrin, you prove the critics' case better than any critic ever did.

Posted by: rlaurens | May 26, 2006 12:43 AM

I was a part of INA/Quixtar for a few years. I never made much money...I did spend alot of it though for tapes, books and seminars.
I would not be a part of this group again because it is not something I can do. I am however now a successful business owner in something that did work for me. I do give much credit to the training, the dreaming, and the ideas I learned as a part of INA.

Posted by: Edward | November 26, 2006 4:35 AM

I was part of TEAM...there was nothing wrong with it. I think people are just mad because it didn't work for them. It's ok for a person to start a business, hire people to work for him/her, and have the person how started the company make millions, while the employees don't even come close to a six figure income. But if someone does it online, and offers that wheather you come in now or later, you can make what ever amount you want because it is a proven system. Some people just have to stop being so bitter. If you don't like it, forget about it and move on. Stop being so negative. Get a life.

Posted by: Adam | February 3, 2007 6:47 AM

I am twice a millionaire. I am an IBO (though we called them "entrepreneurs," in my day), though not though any re-franchising or MLM. If all that reads on my tombstone is "He made a million bucks," I will have considered my life wasted. If you're willing to sacrifice everything for big T.V., go for it. If money gives you self-worth, by all means. But don't call me a negative influence for knowing that when you die, your "diamond" casket won't make you happy. That's life, bud. And, before it's mentioned, my business cost $150 to start. That's about $400, constant. Build your own dreams, don't buy them from snake-oil salesmen.

Posted by: Joeseph | February 6, 2007 7:51 AM

Hmm...

I find it interesting that TOD felt so confident of their legal position that they hired an attorney of such limited experience. Obviously, they had no intention of paying out the substantial bucks necessary to employ an attorney of greater expertise to pursue their claims. I do give them credit for inventing claims involving a great deal of imagination...

Posted by: Randy OnToThem | March 1, 2007 6:15 PM

All I have to say is there is simply too much negativity being spread around these days. It is very refreshing to read positive comments. Way to much stinkin thinkin.....

Thank goodness there are people in America who still have a heart and still can dream of improving their financial health....

This MLM is just like a diet..... follow the plan laid out for you and you will lose weight...How much weight and how long it takes is entirely up to you. It would be different for everyone -

This MLM has a known plan, tried and true. Follow the plan as taught and you will experience success...How much and/or how long it takes - again is entirely up to you.

True - the only reason someone would fail at anything is simply because they QUIT.

But you know, if the people here with negative thoughts were to put half the time and effort they put into slamming this or any other MLM into actually building their own business....hmmm, the possibilities could be endless.

BTW, this little lump of coal will be a Diamond one day!

Thank you for allowing me to comment.

Maxi

Posted by: Maxi | March 16, 2007 10:04 PM

I just signed up as a distributor I like the business concept training motivation CDs, etc. Wanting some outside objective I decided to read a few strands of blog this blog is my favorite one so far. The opinions are so opposite I appreciated the comments made by Tracy Fuhrman, and Tony the best, what a insightful look. This business is starting to sound like many people have taken this business a little too far. It is sad to see that such a beautiful concept could be distorted and such a way to alienate friends or family. at this point I'm afraid that trying to get into this business would be very difficult considering all the negativity toward multilevel marketing companies. Although I believe the business concept is sound, it is too bad it has such a bad reputation. I would hate to put my family before money or make my friends believe that I only like them because they were my business prospect. I'm not sure who won the debate here but I appreciated everybodys comments.

Posted by: Allen | June 25, 2007 3:20 PM

For anyone who is reading this and still thinks it's even a POSSIBLE to make money in a scam like this (again, if you're reading, you're not on the top...and you WILL NOT make money) I really feel sorry for you.

Don't take my word for it. READ THE lawsuit filed (noted above) Team of Destiny, Inc. vs. Scott A. Larsen (lots of links in the first post). Yes, you can skim through the complaint...but the real juice of the document is in the exhibits (attached by the attorneys representing "the team"). READ THEM - if you still think this whole ponzi scheme is possible then at least you've been warned before you lose your cash. The whole idea of Amway / Quixtar / "The Team" crap has been dragged all over the internet (take a look at the case that the State of Wisconsin filed against Quixtar - very telling). Good luck "MLMers". I suppose your "uplines" would call me a dream stealer, a negative person, an anti-hero, etc. Reality is that with all of the free information available to everyone, it's amazing that companies like these still exist. "You can fool some of the people all of the time."

Scott

Posted by: Scottm | July 11, 2007 4:41 PM

I had a talk with an IBOwner for INA.net in a cafe. I had brushes with Amway, Quickstar, Herbalife, Network21 and other minor IBOrganizations, and they all seemed to give the same spill about a wonderful life-changing opportunity. My talk/interview, revealed some important facts:

1. after two years in the organization the guy still has his day-job as a teacher and still makes an average of 300 dollars a month as an IBOwner.

2. there are "some" unidentified individuals who supposedly make 5 figure incomes... and of course no names have been made.

3. training tools are no required or forced on anyone, but the IBOwner admitted that there can be situations in which upliners use coercive methods to get IBOwners to purchase books and tapes.

4. the IBOwner shown an attitude of contempt for those who fail, saying stating that if they fail "it's their fault", and "they conducted the business with the wrong attitude".

There was more to the talk, but this information alone opened my eyes on why there is so much animosity, and that's for two reasons:

1. people put too much expectations in a system that does not guarantee earnings over 1400$ a year (Amway/Quickstar documentation), hence if they fail they get angry and feel scammed.

2. MLM IBOwners are insecure about their business stability and compensate with hostility towards whoever says something abot their beloved company.

Bottom line is: there is no guarantee.

Posted by: getbentin2008 | October 26, 2007 8:12 PM

Good work...I really dont know why have such a single minded person like scoot a larson, He just think amway is bad, very very very bad but didnt think the good side amway have provide. When amway do good, he said amway try to boost sales, when amway do bad, he will inform others that amway is very very bad. If he can balance his heart and mind, he will not put such bad things about amway. Whatever company also have bad times and good times. I really dont know why this things(scott) just single minded look bad side of amway.

Posted by: Sion86 | February 2, 2008 10:12 AM