Quixtar Average Income

Small wonder there is only 20 or so kingpins.

There's not enough bonus money going around.

Posted by: IBuyOnly - aka Clifford | July 11, 2004 9:57 PM

There's people who THINK and there's others who DO.
There's a very big difference between thinking and doing.
If you think too much about numbers and estimates, then you won't DO the work!
I'M DOING the work, instead of THINKING about the logic of the numbers of Quixtar.

so while you guys are thinking about those numbers instead of creating them, who's the stupid one?

Posted by: Genevieve | July 12, 2004 2:24 AM

I guess Genevieve is REALLY getting into thosa tapes, etc. and I'm happy they work for her, but I can't thank you enough for this site and helping me see THE LIGHT...were being pressured and now I see why...

Posted by: EducatedNotManipulated | July 12, 2004 3:02 AM

Genevieve: how much money are you making for doing how much work???

If you won't answer, then you have no right making such broad statements.

You're only proving that the business is all hype and no money for the majority of participants.

Unless of course, you can show us that you're making a DECENT HOURLY WAGE AFTER ALL EXPENSES.

Posted by: quixmire | July 12, 2004 7:46 AM

"so while you guys are thinking about those numbers instead of creating them"

Ironic.

Posted by: lawDawg | July 12, 2004 8:14 AM

i've seen many opportunities in this business, it can be done, however, i see why the young people who get into this business get discouraged right away. It's because of people who can't won't, or don't want to do this....and it's fine that they don't, etc..the main thing is how it is shown to the individual, i'm fortunate I have an honest and true upline that I'm proud to be in connection with. Don't continue to kill peoples dreams, because you don't have the vision to see yours.

Posted by: lazy-IBO | July 12, 2004 10:08 AM

Don't forget to read the find print about the $115/month claim. The number is an average from IBOs who renewed, for their income the previous year. All the people who did nothing and did not renew were not included in their survey.

Scott

Posted by: whoz | July 12, 2004 10:52 AM

Numbers don't lie, people, and no matter how you spin them, Quixtar IBO numbers don't look that good. And sorry, no matter what any tape says, the facts do matter, and people who try to convince themselves that if the dream is big enough that the facts don't matter are delusional. Business isn't about dreaming, it's about money.

Posted by: dmm | July 12, 2004 1:01 PM

As an uneducated peasant who masquerades as a well off web designer by day, I'm not going to knock an extra $1,380, post expenses or not. My landlord says that every little bit helps and I believe him.

But mostly because he'll take away my roof if I don't.

Posted by: Dwighty | July 12, 2004 2:56 PM

Ther are people who do make it. Those that don't, don't want it bad enough. If they would spend as much time building their business as they do whining, they would have more. If you are lazy, don't join. If you are looking for someone to hand you a successful business without any effort on your part, you are delusional.

Posted by: dreambig | July 12, 2004 9:32 PM

So, dreambig, is laziness the only thing to account for failure in Quixtar/Amway? If that is true, are you seriously calling over 99% who participate lazy? Only about 1 in 243 ever make it to platinum. Are the other 242 lazy? And did you know only about 1 in 13,000 ever make it to diamond? Are the rest lazy, dreambig? And what about the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of IBO's, yet Quixtar has only paid out enough bonus money to less then 4,500 an average of $50,000/year (which is a nice salary, but nowhere near financial freedom)? Is everyone else lazy, or perhaps, there is something else to this? Maybe there are lazy IBO's, but considering the numbers, maybe there is also a huge problem with the plan!

Posted by: dmm | July 13, 2004 10:42 AM

After having 16 years in the so called"business"I can tell you to think for yourself.Be a really independant person.The system had me but I prayed for God to give me wisdom about my life and what to do.I put him first not my upline.It wasn't long after that I got a call about the show on TV from a guy rubbing it in.I took up for the "business" like a good downline should.But i'm glad I keep a open mind and did some research on my own.I have now threw away anything to do with the system.My wife,family,friends and so forth cannot still believe I have quit.Do some honest research.

Posted by: BooBoo | July 13, 2004 11:28 AM

What uniformed people dont realize is that our country was formed from free enterprise and the idea that one can make his own decisions and not be chastized for it. I feel our country is lost in the idea that "you must get a job to succeed" Its the whole idea that you can have Finacial freedom but in todays society has made the cost so great that only the people who want it bad enough get it. I dont know about you but that sounds good to me. Also why is it that everyone forgets that you get products with every dollar spent. Oh yeah I bet Bill Gates had no initial investments to make either.

Posted by: blunt523 | July 13, 2004 5:40 PM

Genevieve is so right, but only partially. She left out a very important step.

This is all completely true, but I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

1 - There are those who THINK. (Very true)
2 - There are those who DO. (Also very true)
3 - Then there are those who THINK that they are DOING. (This is the missing part in my view)

Unfortunately, proper business involves THINKING about what you are DOING. I worked 10+ years for a location of one of the world's largest non-profit agencies. They are constantly thinking about what they are doing and if what they are doing is the most effective and beneficial (based on true numbers) thing for the company.

Failure to THINK about what you are DOING can be fiscally fatal to your business. It is better to examine the cost before trying to build a house, not just to jump in and start sawing and nailing.

Cliff :-)

Posted by: IBuyOnly - aka Clifford | July 14, 2004 12:46 AM

Friends,

I must let you know that this is a business opportunity, not a job. You do not get paid on an hourly rate. You get paid on one thing-volume. Many of the people whom complain about this business do not understand it. They do not know how the business model works. If you do what the business plan shows, you get paid for it. Quixtar is a faceless company. They pay on the numbers produced. There is no interaction with them. They just ship stuff and send you checks.
Everyone always recieves the money they should have. If there was ever a mistake, it would be the computer's fault and the company would make it correct.
People do not undertstand that this is not a job. They are trying to compare apples and oranges. If you want to start your own business, and you have the capital to do it, you're going to go in debt thousands if not millions of dollars. In addition, you will also have about a 98 % chance of failing with in the first 5 years. Unless you buy a franchise and you still have all the capital to invest.
I undertand people's hesitation about this business because I went through it as well. But what I found was that if you achomplish what the business model says, you get paid for it.
I don't think that it is fair that people read things on the internet and lose a tremendous opportunity because someone was unwilling or unable to do what the business plan said.
You will never see any where in print that someone did not get paid what the corporation said they would get paid. If they do, they are lying, because the check comes directly from the company or direct deposit.
That was the problem with Amway before. They were a great company, but sometimes people that worked as a "business owner", stole money off of the people whom earned it. So it got a bad name. It was not the company's fault.
The same is true with quixtar, if someone makes a false claim, it's that person lying, not the company.
This is a people business, and any profession that includes people, has good and bad people.
So no one can help that.
In addition, the tool sytem is imperative to grow your business. I currently do not make money off of the tools but I would not have been able to give myself a 12,000 dollar raise with out the education system.
This business is unigue and it is completly different than anything you ever experienced. I went to six years of college and graduate school to learn how to be an employee. Not to own my own business. The education system teaches you how to do what someone else already has. It is the same as if you bought books at college. How much money do you think they are making on you there? People forget that education is a business.
People don't understand that if you just do what someone else in the business has done, you too will be successful. If someone tells you this dooesn't work or it's scam ask them two questions "did you do what the marketing plan said to do to achieve the results you wanted and also ask them if they "did all 9 steps to be successful in business?" Because I will promise you that anyone whom does all 9 steps will succeed in this business. However, some are unwilling to do all nine. And that's why you are complaing. But quit stealing the best opportuniy in the world away from people and decieving them. If anyone is scaming anyone, it's the people whom say it doesn't work. If it wasn't for this business and the money I made through it, I would have been forced to move back in with my parents after I recieved a master's degree (and couldn't find a job) but didn't have to because I made enough money in the business.

I have a millioniare teaching me how to get where he is at, it is how the business works, if you do what they have done, you will have what they have. It's that simple. The people that complain have not done what the business plan says to do.

Posted by: Dustin Boring | July 14, 2004 1:50 PM

Nice tapespeak, Dustin. The fact is, you have said absolutely nothing we haven't heard 100 times before, almost verbatim. Well, Dustin, here are some rebuttals.

First off, 98% of all new business do not fail within the first five years. This is an outright lie. From the small business association (http://app1.sba.gov/faqs/faqindex.cfm?areaID=24), "Two-thirds of new employer firms survive at least two years, and about half survive at least four years. Owners of about one-third of the firms that closed said their firm was successful at closure." So, if 48% close by year five, then your tapespeak assertation would be correct, but it would also be a huge statistical anomoly, Dustin. Also note that many firms are successful at time of closure, meaning they are still making money. So, why do they close? Many sell either to other small owners or to larger firms, and many close due to other circumstances such as family matters. But, after four years, 50% are still open, and almost 2/3 of all small businesses were making money! So, if there was one, huge glaring lie on your tapes, ever wonder what else they lie about?

Next problem with your post was your Amway and Quixtar comparison. Amway didn't have problems because they didn't pay their distributors. Fact is Amway had the same problems Quixtar have, because for all intents and purposes, Amway = Quixtar! Same owners, same lines of sponsership, same products, and same payment schedule. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...Yes Amway didn't have direct orders, but I wouldn't call this enough of a change to call Quixtar anything other then a slightly evolved Amway.

So, what does this mean about the "new" opportunity? It means this opportunity is about as new as the state of Hawaii! Fact is, the opportunity has been around for nearly 50 years. Though, I will admit that the tool kingpins did change the business for the worse about 25 years ago. So, maybe this opportunity is about as old as you, Dustin, but it certainly isn't anything new!

Next comes the system itself. Do you know where the bulk of you millionaire teacher's money comes from? Is it from Quixtar, or is it from the tools you are buying? I know the answer. Do you? Well, from this chart (http://amquix.info/quixtar_income.html), if he is a diamond, he's only making about $150,000/year from Quixtar. But, if he has just 1,500 people buying $6 tapes that cost just $.50 at most to duplicate, that is $8,250 per tape batch bought. Two tapes/week for fifty-two weeks, and we are talking about generating a profit of $858,000. If your millionaire diamond takes just 1/4 of the profit, that is $214,500, or more then his Quixtar income. But wait, there's more. Your diamond is also making money on books, functions, and speaking at other functions! In fact, I bet that your diamond is making at worst, $3 from your tool purchases to every $1 he makes from Quixtar!

Last, but certainly not least, is the question, "how much are you retailing?" Dustin. By this, I want to know how much you sell to non-IBO's (members/clients). Because, did you know that if you are just buying from yourself and teaching others to do so with little or no retail, not only are you participating in an illegal scam, you are either losing money or you are making money because your downline is losing money? It isn't my opinion, but mathematical fact. Just take a read, http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?t=381. And if you want more info on the illegality of the buy from yourself system, I can link plenty of this too, but the best is to read Quixtar's own 70% rule!

Posted by: dmm | July 14, 2004 2:56 PM

Friend,

I understand that you are obvious ruled my emotion instead of fact. You may have had someone mislead you but you must have no understanding of how business works, obviously from your response. It is true, that most businesses fail within the first five years, it is the nature of free enterprise in this country right now. You can not start your own business right now and try to compete with multi-million dollar companies. Unless you were born into wealth. You just can’t do it. Have you ever owned your own traditional business? I have. It’s very, very difficult. I’m willing to bet you haven’t.

Because if you did, you would understand how money is made. So let me explain…. Every time money is exchanged, whether it is a fast food place, wal-mart or your insurance company-anything- someone makes money. And if you are giving money to anyone, for anything, they made money off of you. That is how the economy works. However, what you don’t understand, as a consumer, you want that to happen. Therefore, you receive goods and services.
This is the same situation with the tool system. I hope my mentor’s make as much money as possible. I wish they would pay them more, because they deserve it! People look at this business and they say “well they are making money off of you on the tools.” Well this is the alternative- the books you buy through the system, they are already price printed on the book, are they suppose to give you a discount? Then people would just join the business to get cheaper books than what is at the bookstore. And that would not be good.
Who makes money when you buy a book at the bookstore- do you think they are just pricing them so you can afford it? I’d rather give it to people trying to make me money than a book store that never gave me a dime. The CD’s- they teach you how to make money, and they are ½ to 1/3 less than your Kenny g CD. How much money do they make off you there? But oh, that’s ok. As long as a billion dollar corporations are selling you something and making money that’s ok. Give me a break. The CD’s are imperative to know about the business and how to grow it-if you don’t have them, people will fail like you did
In addition, all of the tools are bought in bulk. If you buy them in bulk they are cheaper. It is not as if, people literally have a CD that they bought for $1 and are selling it to you for $8. Everyone pays the same amount and then the education system revenue shares later. So no one is taking advantage of anyone- The tool system revenue sharing is just an added bonus when you build it. And again, you’re not forced to purchase anything. So why are you so mad about it? Give me an alternative way they could run it, your way- that would be better. Since your so business savvy. By the way, where did you get your business degree?
How much money do you think you make your employer? Do you think they just pay you because they like your attitude? They make money off of you. No matter what job it is. If they didn’t, you wouldn’t be there. However, in this business, you keep the most of what you earned. In other jobs, your employer keeps the most amount of profit generated. Here, you keep it. It’s based on franchising. The same as McDonalds. The person whom bought the franchise (for close to a million dollars) keeps most of the money. However, the corporation just gets a 2% fee of the volume. It’s a win-win situation. The same as this. If you help someone earn 60k a year, you get 4% of the total volume. If you have proper structure (outside volume, so you can’t just get in and do nothing) It’s about 10k a year. My sponsor is going to earn that when I go platinum. I wish they would give him more, because it doesn’t come out of my money. He deserves more for as much as he has helped me. What’s wrong about trying to help people make money. That’s how the business works, Your mentors want you to make more money. They want you to profit share with them from the tools. Because it also helps them. It’s a win-win situation. It’s awesome. No other person or company ever wanted me to do better or earn more money than them. See what many do not understand is that the people that are financially tied to you in the business, want you to do better than them.

Does your boss want you to make more money than him or her? No way. It is ridiculous to think that the people in this organization just want to keep you down to pay them- they want you to grow and make money. It’s a different vehicle. The more money you make, the more money they make. And I’m sure you don’t realize this either, but you can make more money than anyone in the business. You can make more than someone else that got in years ago. I make more money than 5 people in my line of sponsorship. If you are a low level worker in corporate America, what are the chances of you becoming the CEO? Or even middle management. Not very likely. Well you’ll probably say that very few make in quixtar as well. The reason is that people tell them all the time they can’t do it. Like you! If you keep telling someone they are stupid, they are not going to do well in school. Pretty soon they will believe you.
Bottom line, I’d rather give my money to someone that is helping me earn wealth than someone whom just takes it from me like any other corporation in the world. And if you build the business, you will eventually share in the tool revenue as well. And not just the big pins share, you begin once you are a platinum. (At the highest percentage by the way)

If you do what they have done, you will have what they have. Period. But you can not build this business with out the education system. It is a necessity. Maybe if you would have listened to more CD’s and read more books, maybe you would have understood how business works, known how to build the business and actually make money and not been shocked when you found out information that your mentors didn’t tell you. I imagine you didn’t even know anyone in the business that was making money. That’s probably a lot of your problem.
And yes, I have read the rules of the business and I do know the 70% rule- I’m sorry that you are having trouble with the rules of the business. If you have a problem with it, here’s a tip-don’t do the business.
Again, this is a different business than amway. However, the pay scale was transferred from amway to quixtar so it wouldn’t have to be approved by the FTC again. However, you are correct though, the business pay system has been around for about 50 years. Makes you wonder how a business that is a “scam” stays in business that long doesn’t? In the late 70’s the business was again approved by the government. That is why you can check the business out with the Federal Trade Commission and the Better Business Bureau. I think it’s pretty funny about how people will listen to people like you and won’t check out what the federal government says. I think if the business pay scale has been around for 50 years, has been approved by the FTC and the Better Business Bureau, I think we’ll be ok but thanks for looking out for us.
The problem with you xyz, or whatever your three letter name is, you couldn’t build this business and you don’t want anyone else to succeed. I’ve told you that I have made good money in this business and that if it wasn’t for the business, I would be in financial trouble. But that doesn’t matter to you. You still want me to not make money and support my family. After I’ve told you that it works. It is not fair, and unethical what you are doing. You are trying to deprive people’s ability to make money in a legitimate business opportunity to provide for their family. If I would have listened to someone like you when I got started, I’d be living with my parents like you are, broke like you are. Stop stealing people’s opportunity by slandering the best opportunity in the world.

Posted by: Dustin | July 15, 2004 10:25 AM

Boy they got you good, Dustin.

First off, the FTC did not or does it ever "approve" anything. To say the FTC "approved" Amway's pay scale 25 years ago is misleading. What happened was in an FTC case against Amway, the 70% end-user rule already in place satisfied the government that Amway was not a product-based pyramid scheme. Of course, in latter rulings, such as the case versus Equinox and 5-Star Auto Club, similar rules that were not enforced by the company has lead to serious repercussions such as fines and the shutting down of the companies. Does Quixtar enforce the 70% rule? And what about you, Dustin? Does at least 70% of your PV/BV come from members/clients? And what about your downline?

Secondly, the BBB does not and has never approved a business either. To say so is also deception. The BBB is a clearinghouse for information, and all a company has to do to become a BBB member is pay the fee! And with this fee, the business gives its customers a neutral, third-party to complain and/or praise the company. By the way, ever checked how many people have complained to the BBB about Quixtar? Check here http://www.grandrapids.bbb.org/nis/newsearch2.asp?ID=1&strBCode=03720000&ComID=0372000011002927

Third, you are missing a few key components about people buying tools from their upline. First and foremost is intent. Why does an upline sell the tool, and why does the downline buy the tool? You say the intent for both is for the downline to grow his business. But the numbers tell a different story. If tools are so helpful, why does only 1 in 13,000 ever make it to diamond? Second, if an upline makes significantly more money off of tools then he does off of Quixtar, why would the upline want more people to succeed and reach a pin level where more hands are in the tool cookie jar? Does the added income from more big pins offset the lost percentage of tool money? The answer is no, because again, big pins make more money from tools!

Fourth, you are incorrect in thinking the smaller the pin gets the larger the share of the tool pie. I suggest reading the lawsuits on mlmsurvivor.com on how the tool money is regulated by the few at the top, who decide who gets paid, and how much. It's been asked on this and other sites for Team of Destiny to produce a tool contract that states which pin gets what and when, but to date, no ToD or any other line of sponsership contract has ever been surfaced.

Fourth, it is true that when I make money, my boss makes more, but the more money he makes, more money also gets poured back into the product, generating even more revenue. In the end, I get raises, stock options, etc., that make both myself and my boss richer. And, I don't have to spend a dime on the product I product, and in fact, I don't, because I get the use of the products for free as a fringe benefit. In contrast, in the buy from yourself system, you buy all the products from your own store and one of two things happen. Either you spend significantly more money on these purchases then you make back in comission, or you make money by recruiting a very large number of people who spend more money then they make. It's called a negative pyramid, and it very well describes what happens in Quixtar, as over 80% of all Quixtar purchases are made by IBO's, and by Quixtar's own numbers, an IBO has only an average of .23 member/client! So, who's in a better position? Me, who makes money, or an IBO, who spends more money on his purchases then he makes back?

Fifth, I have owned my own business before, and am raising capitol to start another one. Yes the big chains make it difficult, but not impossible to survive in today's marketplace. By the way, my other business, which I was a minority partner, was sold, at a profit, at the time I stopped working it. It was getting stale, and wasn't enjoyable anymore. By the way, Dustin, you contradict yourself if you believe that all small companies are doomed to fail when they compete against the big boys and believe Quixtar can compete against the likes of Wal-Mart, Target and Costco!

Sixth, you err in your assumption about my intentions and in your belief that I want or need you to fail. In fact, I could not care less how successful you are and I wish you the best of luck in your Quixtar endeavors. I hope you have all the success you have ever desired, as long as you are abiding by Quixtar's 70% rule. This is because I wish no ill will on anyone who is trying to make a business work, unless of course the business is a scam.

Posted by: dmm | July 15, 2004 2:19 PM

No I think they got you xyz,

How long has the company you work for been around? Is it preparing for the future? Everyone knows, that the Internet is next, it is still in its infancy. We grew at almost 15% last year. Wal-mart was about 9% How about your company? Wal-mart is the largest company in the world, 256 billion dollars last year. What do they make? Nothing. All they do is distribute. What does quixtar make? Nothing. And you can buy anything you want from one place, just as you can at wal-mart. If your business manufactures products or even is a service, you’re behind the times. GM was the largest company in the world before Wal-mart. Do you think that GM will ever catch wal-mart? It was our forth year in business and we were ranked 12th in total volume for all internet sales.

And if you think quixtar is a small business you probably believe in the easter bunny too. It’s a billion dollar company. Where are you going to get a couple billion dollars to invest in your company? Or maybe you’ll borrow some else’s money and get investors, because you have such a great idea that no one else has thought of in the last 100 years they’ll just give you a couple million. If you think that you are going to start your own business and make money and not have a 24-hour job doing it, you’re crazy. And let me tell you, as a small business owner, you have a lot more chances of being shut down than any other major company.
And the business that you were a part owner of that made a profit when you sold it, do you still get paid for that? If you die while part of this business, you can will your income to anyone you want? Where is that offered anywhere in the world? And I know a family that happened to. And his wife will get paid forever because he built it. Sure, life insurance will pay, once. How long does that money last? She is getting over 100 k a year- what life insurance policy does that?

I also bet your getting raises every year, and stock options and bonuses and their most important thing in their mission statement is you- ( “The goal of this company is to provide xyz with all the money possible, as much as we can spare- because we want to make sure we take care of his family and all of his friends and we want to make sure that he is able to retire real early and give him and his family all kinds of benefits. We also enjoy xyz so much, we promise him that we will keep him here as long as he wants, we will never fire him! That is our mission statement and our goal for the future.”)

They are just giving the money away where you work aren’t they? -I should work where you do, we all should. But according to you, a guess all jobs are like that everywhere. How’s that retirement plan working for you? Good news is that if you’re close to 50 right now, you still might get that big social security check for $1000 a month. But the problem is if you’re under 35, you’re not getting anything- ever- the government has made that very clear. Bottom line is this, both of us fail in the long run if we don’t do something different. Right now, the Social Security Administration says at age 65- 23% of the population is still working, 30% rely on a charity and 45% are dependent on family members. That’s 2% left. And it is going to get much worse. You have the largest age group in American history going to be elderly with in the next 15 years- 75 million people. Who’s going to support them? You and I will buddy. How do you plan on doing it? Because you’re net pay is not going to go up at your job. What’s your plan of attack? This system has made a lot of people wealthy for the last 50 years, has your company?

The corporation will not send you a check if you do not comply with the member/client volume rule if you have people in your organization. So you know so much about this business but you have never even been in to find the knowledge yourself. If you were in, you didn’t sponsor anyone. And yes, everyone on my team does what is required to make the business legal. (psst. Or we wouldn’t get paid)
Seems kind of funny how the pay system has worked for as long as it has and been legal but all of the sudden xyz says its illegal we should all believe him.
Where did you get your law degree?
I’m sure there were no lawyers from the 1100 companies that work with us that did any investigations. These fortune 500 companies like office max and Disney just said “sure, we’ll get in business with you. We don’t care if it’s legal.”

The BBB does regulate companies and their integrity. And where can one find a credible source that legitimizes businesses and their legality if not the bbb or the FTC? Yea, I have seen the complaints filed on quixtar. Do you know how low of a number that is? We are in all fifty states! We’ve been in business four years!
Wal-mart last year had 4000 law suits against them. Right now they have 1.5 million people bringing a class action against them. Type in the search engine at yahoo (complaints about wal-mart) See how their resume looks compared to ours.
But I bet you still shop there. You know why you shop there, it’s because they spend billions of dollars telling you that you “feel” good going there. Every good company does it and does it well. Except us, we take that money that would normally be spent on advertising and give it to IBOs. Almost every company spends 2/3 of their budget on adverting. You have a choice, you can either buy things from some company and have them take advantage you, or you can buy products from a company that pays you to use them. It’s that simple. And I will always buy from the company that pays me. You have to buy the stuff anyway, why not pay yourself for it. I can buy everything one needs from quixtar that one can buy at wal-mart. And the prices are very comparable and in some geographic locations, cheaper than anywhere else. And the company also gives you a year guarantee on everything you buy. Wal-mart doesn’t do that.

And no, you are missing a couple calculations and misreading what I said. The reason why so few people make is because people like you tell others that the tool system takes advantage of people. Therefore, they don’t grow themselves to hold an organization. But no doubt, the business isn’t easy because people are the variable.

Are you really thinking about this logically? So was there a time when the corporation just anointed people and put them in high income positions to motivate people? And which company? The tool company or quixtar? Because they are two separate entities. And they make that very clear. I’d like to hear the fairy tale story on how it all came to be the way it is now. What happened to get where it is right now? Tell me the genesis and how these people that make the big money got to where they are at?
For the profit sharing, I said platinum’s get the highest %, not the most money. You must read more carefully friend. The reason being is that higher pins have a larger organization- more tool flow- lower %
And I know this maybe difficult for you to understand this, because this is a business concept so I will type slow- if there are more people achieving higher pins, there are more people buying tools (which is a requirement for growth), there is more money to share.
And I guess you are questioning my integrity because I told you that my mentors have done everything they can and continue to do so to teach me how to grow my business. They have never said anything that was wrong, incorrect or a false statement. Everything they have said has always worked and helped me grow my business

Essentially, it seems your argument is that- these guys, whom are big pins (whom are by the way puppets of quixtar, or is it the tool company which one is it again?) want you to stay at a low level, make little income, and buy a bunch of tools and never grow your business? And then quit because you are not making any money? And all of the hundreds of people that are part of the system have been lied to by the company each month. They never get paid what they are supposed to get paid but they still are hoping that “maybe I’ll get paid what they told me I would get paid next month.” All of these people never get paid what there are suppose to. And they just foolishly follow people around.

My mentors have drive thousands of miles, to help me grow my business, when I wasn’t even there. My family won’t even do that, I’m guessing yours wouldn’t either.
But anyway you look at it, your argument is flawed- you can’t have someone trying to help you succeed, earn money (because if you don’t get help, they don’t make money either) and then all the sudden, right before you go over 7500 points- Everyone that shares in the tool system says “no, wait, you can’t go over 7500 points”, and they just lie and cheat and steal to stop you from doing it so they can keep all of the tool money themselves”
So you’re saying that you get help the entire time (you have to, that’s how the business works) and then they just pull the plug on you. That’s the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You obvious need to look at the marking plan. All of the big money comes when you break other platinums. It’s a business of helping other people succeed. That’s why it works so well.

I think that’s funny that you said you sold your other business because it was getting stale. If you were making 100k a year and had time to spend it, you would not have sold it. If you expect someone to believe that you gave up a successful, profitable business to kiss your boss’s behind, they believe in the easter bunny as well.

You who say that this is a bad business, is the same type of person that might have said the same type of things 30 years ago about Amway. I know people that have been in amway for 30 year and make millions of dollars a year. Now, all the nay sayers such as yourself, that told them that they couldn’t do it and it was a scam-

whom do you really think is in a better situation right now? The multimillionaires or the people that said it was a scam? Which one would you want to be?

Quixtar has been in business four years and I’m willing to bet, that someone just like you, whom said it was this and that, told someone 4 years ago that this was a bad idea and they didn’t get in. And that’s a shame, because you know what, the business is still here and people are making money that work the system. I can promise you that in the next fours years of the company, if I just do what I did the first year, I will make over 200,000 a year- and yes, that will be tool money as well. But tell me this, whom do you think will be in a better situation- you with your raises, stock options, your boss’s tea parties and kisses on his rear ………….or me? Get realistic.

Posted by: dustin | July 15, 2004 11:44 PM

Have you ever checked up on some of the claims made by the big pins on the tapes? Ever think for yourself any more? Or you are a complete Quixbot, saying only what you are supposed to and quoting nothing but tapespeak?

Corporations spending 66% on advertising? That's ridiculous. Shopping at a place because they make me feel good? What am I buying, illicit drugs? Personally, I usually shop at Target, and not because they tell me too or I get an euphoric feeling from that red logo of theirs. No, I shop at Target because they offer, comparitively, some of the lowest prices available on the usual basket of goods that I tend to buy. Wal-Mart too offers similar prices, but I choose Target over Wal-Mart because Target is closer to my house, is cleaner, and the workers are generally friendlier/service is better. By the way, since Target Corporation is publically traded, you can find their financial information online here http://ccbn.mobular.net/ccbn/7/524/573/. From the Report to shareholders, on page 26, total revenue from Target Corp. (Target, Mervyn's, Dayton Hudson stores plus credit card division) was $48,163,000 for 2003. Total advertising costs (from page 31) were $1,249,000, meaning Target Corp. spent about 3% of their total revenues on advertising. Far cry from the 66% you claim, Dustin!!! (I might be reading the decimals wrong, but the percentages are correct)

As for shopping only where they pay me, rebates are only good if the total cost is lower. For example, if I buy a basket of goods from Target and the cost is $200, and you buy a similar basket of goods from Quixtar and the cost is $300 and you receive a check for $75, who comes out ahead? It's simple math.

This brings me to my next point. Quixtar may not have advertising costs, but their business model is still less efficient then traditional brick and mortar stores, meaning their prices will always be higher! Yes you can buy directly from Quixtar, cutting out the middlemen who touch the actual product, but these middlemen are replaced with a whole new set of middlemen who add no value to the product, but still get paid when a Quixtar order is placed. These new middlemen are called "upline". You see, Dustin, in traditional b/m, there are five levels of people who get paid when a product is bought. They are manufacturer, manufacturer rep, jobber/buyer, wholesaler and retailer. With Quixtar, the levels look like this, Manufacturer (Quixtar), upline diamond, upline emerald, upline platinum, upline non-pin, and then you. Order from a partner store, and yet another level is added! And whereas in traditional business, the process can be and has been streamlined, with Quixtar's pay plan, their process cannot. For more analysis, go here, http://amquix.info/amway_myth_1.html.

Now onto the legality part. You claim you are selling 70% to members/clients. Can you show or tell us what your PV/BV was last month and how much of this came from you, your downline and from members/clients? And how many members/clients do you have registered? What about your downline. Remember, the average IBO has only .23 member/client, meaning that for every 1 member/client, there are, on average, 5 IBO's! And next question, why would a member/client buy from Quixtar? Unless they really love the products, they will be spending a lot more money on Q products, and not get the rebate to help offset the cost!

Next, if most of Quixtar isn't operating legally (over 80% is self consumed, meaning only 20% or less is bought by members/clients, and not the 70% required), why would partner stores still sign up? Simple. How much money does it cost for them to partner up, and how much money can they make, and how liable would the partner stores be? To answer the first question, the investment is minimal. The most, if not all the partner stores are simply mirror web-sites to the company's already existing site. The cost to create this site is nothing, the cost to maintain is nothing, because the original one is already made and maintained and anything done to the original is done to the mirror, so the only cost to partner up with Quixtar is the cost of the band-width. And for this investment, the partner store gets access to hundreds of thousands of dedicated online shoppers who if they shop online, are 99% sure they will buy from Quixtar. Sure the partner store will get less per sale because they have to pay the middleman that is Quixtar, but still, the more sold, the better. Now, to answer the liability question, partner stores are well insulated because Quixtar has rules such as the 70% rule that will satisfy the partner stores' lawyers. There is a paper trail that and the fact that Quixtar negotiates in good faith that if it is ever found that Quixtar does not enforce its own rules, the partner stores will claim it is not the responsibility of the partner store to enforce Quixtar's rules and the partner store had no idea that Quixtar was operating illegally. The partner store, at this point, can investigate on their own, or end the partnership, and avoid any litigation. Basically, partner stores have cya'd themselves very well.

Now, onto the myth of "residual" income. The Quixtar business will never just grow itself without your participation! This is because of not only the aforementioned fact that Quixtar is significantly more expensive for members/clients, but also because 2/3 of all IBO's do not renew every year! And those that quit almost always go back to their normal buying habits, meaning you need to work to replace those you lose every year. Take a look at the diamonds. They are perpetually busy speaking and recording at functions to keep the people motivated and buying, both tools and Quixtar goods. They are not retired, and do their best to keep their downline from collapsing every day. In fact, their downlines are collapsing every day, it is just their recruitment equals it so we don't see it. But just go to a function today, and then one in 5 years and count how many of the same faces you see not on stage!

As for me, I'm very secure in my job. And my company's growth rate is over 10%. I also have several retirement accounts, and despite your claim that you cannot back up, I believe Social Security will still be around to help supplement my income when I do retire, which won't be a for a long, long time. By the way, can you find me where someone said SS won't be around and can you prove it? Yes, the largest American generation of workers are and will be retiring shortly, but there is no shortage of people to replace these people when they go. If an American isn't availble for the job, there is a myraid of foreigners, both legal and illegal willing and able to work to keep the American economy flowing just fine. And, Dustin, can you prove your claim that only 2% of retirees are stable, and that a large number of retirees are either dependant on family or charity? Seems to me my Grandparents did fine with neither family support or charity until the times that they started losing their mental capacity and needed help because they couldn't mentally take care of their estates. Same with my great aunts and uncles. Maybe I just come from a rich family (I don't), or maybe your statistics are incorrect? Without any proof, you are now the one just talking out of your behind!

Posted by: dmm | July 16, 2004 11:19 AM

Dustin, with extreme prejudice, has effectively debunked the erroneous notion that this thing is some sort of ‘cult.’ Can’t figure out where we got that idea in the first place.

Posted by: Porkchopjim | July 16, 2004 11:28 AM

Facts on S.S as requested by ignorant blogger: Swiss America Research Department March 10th 2004.Hey I am succeeding and I also have a few founders/Q12 platinums on my team(guess they did better than average huh.)

Thats right if you made a decision...defend it and keep working your jobs until 65. no sorry 67. The economy needs you, But at age 70 you don't retire you EXPIRE.

Read the latest Fortune Mag. Lately about retirement? But then again your JOB is secure because you own that company and would never fire or layoff yourself. I have seen a couple checks from my upline diamonds for well over $250,000 and they all said QUIXTAR\TOOLS(just kidding they said quixtar). So I guess some diamonds only make $150,000 because the PLAN Quoted that huh.

Hey lets provide therapy for all the X-IBOs here. And would someone tell me whats the problem with the tools that are paid out to platinums and above? So you question the motive of the upline for training and motivating? Did your college fees go towards paying your college professor? and can you find me the break down on the College Fee payout?Better yet do you have access to the payout of your company? e.g From the C.E.O >VP all the way down to you?

I see more companies coming on board with Quixtar. Give the C.E.O's some credit as to checking out who they become affiliated with.Probably they missed the NBC Expose and havent heard that quixtar is a scam. I have alot of people on my team who did the business before and failed. We identified some key mistakes or lack of training in some areas. Some of them will accompany me to an all expenses paid trip to The Walt disney Swan and Dolphin Resort in November.(paid by Quixtar)

I say if quixtar didn't work for you before don't try again with a new team after checking the people success record out. If you got laid off or fired from a job go get another one Tiger!

Posted by: PJ | July 18, 2004 3:38 AM

XYZ,

Well I guess now you’re talking in circles because you ran out of arguments and you’re grabbing at straws. Again, you must not read well and you should reread my passage. I already answered your client/ member volume question. So you can reread that answer, I’m not rewriting it because you didn’t read it the first time.

As for the statistics, I’m glad you stated that you think people that are under 30 are going to have Social Security. Just that one statement discredits everything you have said. The reason being, there is not one sane person in the US that thinks young people in the work force are going to have it. So thanks, that makes my job easier. And just for your sake, so you don’t walk around the rest of your life hoping for that 1000 dollar SS check, maybe you should take some business courses on the history of the American economy in the last century. Or maybe you should take a human resources class, heck, why don’t you just go read a book about the state of the retirement system in this country. Read any business book for that matter. Or are you afraid they make money on you?
And all of those statistics are true, look them up yourself, on the Social Security web site and the US census bureau and look at retirement statistics. But I imagine you haven’t already seen them and won’t look yourself, so lets do some quick math. Let’s say you have a great 401k plan. Where you are putting $100 a month into a mutual fund. Now your are saving $100 dollars a month. That’s a lot of money and most do not save at all let alone $100 a month. But let’s say you do. And let’s say you get a 12% return every year on that money. And let’s only assume there as been a 2% inflation rate. Which is very low. And lets say you got that same return for 40 years of your life. Each month, $100 dollars and a 12% return (which is very good as well) for 40 years. At the end, factoring in inflation, you will have a 50, 000 k a year income for 4.8 years. (if the market stay good) That’s less than 5 if you’re not counting. So you better hope that you’re not planning on living much longer when you retire. You don’t believe me, go check your local bank and see what they can offer you.
And as for your family of people whom are already past their 70s, they lived in a different time. A different economic time. I beg you, just take an entry level college economic course. The family members that you are citing, did they have a mortgage? Or did they already own the land? Did they have car payments? Or did they own the car? Did they have a pension plan? Or did they have a 401k with stock options? Everything has changed, pension plans are gone for us. That is not an option.
And did they receive a social security check? Did they raise their own food or did they rely on food stores? you know, seems kind of funny how your way works so well but there are so many elderly people working at your target, wal-mart and fast-food restaurants. And you never hear on the news about plants closing or people getting fired or people losing their jobs. Give me a break, watch the news- even they don’t lie to you about job losses.

And let’s see whom is making out better, you –who saves apparently $75 dollars more a month than me by shopping at target or me, whom buys everything from myself. (Oh, and by the way, out of every person whom is a millionaire, did they click coupons to get there?)
Here’s the stats

This is per month income

You = $75 saved
Positive cash flow from saving =$75
Total earnings from additional income ( I decided to use price comparison as an additional income)
= $75
Total savings for tax benefits for owning your own business (meaning, you can either pay the government money in taxes or fund your own business)
= $0.00
Money paid to the government because you don’t own your own business
= $300.00

Total for the month = - $225.00
In the red, for a loss

Me = $75 spent

Positive cash flow from spending $75 = $1000

Total earnings from additional income = $925
In the black, for a positive = $925

Total savings for tax benefits for owning your own business (meaning, you can either pay the government money in taxes or fund your own business) ( Which is by the way where the money comes from for all the tapes, CDs, seminars, functions and any other business expenses)

= $ 300.00

And how much time and gas did I save by not driving to the store? Ten years from now, as a society, we are going to be amazed that we actually got in our cars and drove to buy things. Mark my words. It is a waste of time to go shopping when someone else will bring it to you. Why do you think internet sales have went up so much each year in the forth quarter?

So yea, who is in a better situation - I think I’d rather be me-

And you seem to be changing your argument, as to what you are complaining about. First it was the legality and your so called “scam” aspect to now it seems as though you are trying to say that it’s not a good business opportunity. So which one is it? The company did 1 billion dollars total revenue in its forth year of operation. Has paid out over 1 Billion dollars in bonuses in a period of four years. We have partnerships with over 1100 companies. We just added Barnes and Noble and Circuit City as partner stores. What do you think it would take for you to start your own company and be in business as a partner with those two companies? Do you think you could do that?

Bottom line, there is not a better way to make an extra $1000 dollars or to become financially independent anywhere. So quit taking away other peoples ability to achieve what some people have already done.

As for advertising, the only reason Target doesn’t spend more money on advertising is because it can’t afford it. You want to compare companies, look at target’s debt and profit schedule compared to ours. You are taught in business school that any profits you make, go right back into advertising. But I guess you wouldn’t know that either because you don’t have a business degree. The CEO of Amazon.com said that he spends 66 cents on every dollar on advertising.
And by the way, you are again, comparing apples and oranges. You don’t work for Target, but you shop there. Do they pay you anything? Let me help you out, the answer is no.
I shop at quixtar. I drive market share for them and they pay me to do it. How much market share do you drive to Target and not get paid for it?
Target is not a business opportunity and quixtar is. You can buy stock in Target, but how much money do you have to put in to get a good return if one at all? How many thousands of dollars do you have to put in to get the return that I do now with quixtar. And do you get that every month?
You keep changing your mind as to what aspect you want to say this is a bad opportunity from. Are you looking at this as a consumer? Or as a business owner? Or as an ignorant bystander whom doesn’t know the difference.

You don’t even know how the pay out works in quixtar. I bet you never even got a check from them. But you’re just a wonderful source of information aren’t you? You’re like an unmarried marriage counselor, or one of those arm-chair quarterbacks, or one of those guys who knows everything about nothing, but thinks he knows everything about everything. You know what type of person I’m talking about xyx? I bet you’re that guy.

Your job is secure? There is no such thing, because you don’t make the decision whether it is secure or not.

And this residual income that you have a problem with is residual income. It is residual as it gets. Show me a case where you can have money coming in and you don’t have to put effort into it? You can’t do it at your job, or real estate, or any where. As a normal, average person where can you find that opportunity? can you find it at all? Diamonds openly admit that they still spend time working, but you have the freedom to take off when you want, money to travel where you want and are able to actually raise your kids. Everyone that is an emerald or above is at home with their kids everyday and can see them grow up. Are you going to be able see your kids grow up at your job? Is your wife going to raise your kids or is daycare going to do it? Maybe you have a great job, where you can leave work whenever you want, pay baby-sitters great money so you get a good one to make sure that your child is raised properly or fund any hobby that they might get interested in. You know, maybe you can do that with your job. And good for you- But I don’t have that at my job, and I have a great job. And there are a lot of people out there that are in bad situations, a lot worse than me that would love to make an extra $1000 a month. It would change everything for them.
There is a guy on my team right now, that is 19 years old, his dad got paralyzed last year and the 19 year old is trying to provide, with his mom, for his dad, and 2 siblings. He can’t go to college. He can’t afford it. You could say he could get another job. Working a total 16-18 hours a day for the next ten years. But that extra job, does that ever, in a life time, get him out of his dire financial situation? The answer is no. With a spare time job he can’t even make $1000 dollars a month. So how do you help him xyz? What’s your answer there? You who hates this business and says it’s so bad. How do you get out of that situation?
The problem with you is that someone reads what you write about this business and doesn’t get in. They miss the opportunity. Then tragedy hits their family down the road. Whether it’s what happened to the guy on my team, a job loss or a death. And because they believed someone like you, who is misleading people on the opportunity, they are in a dire situation that they might not be able to overcome. All because you couldn’t build the business so you don’t think other people should.

In addition, I made a lot of points and presented a lot questions in my last passage that you failed to address and now you are just talking in circles. Unless you have something new to add, or can counter argue my points, there is no point in replying. Quit trying to take away people’s opportunity to generate income in a legitimate business opportunity that has been around longer than your own company. I’ve already told you what it has done for me and you still complain. I’ve already told you the legality of it and you still complain. I’ve already told you how well the company has done and you still complain. Are you just mad because you couldn’t do it? Why are you so mad? Honestly, what is your problem?
And could you reiterate please, what are people getting scammed? What are they losing? Everything in the business, including the products are money-back guarantee. In a risk free opportunity, how can you be taken advantage of?

Posted by: dustin | July 19, 2004 12:16 PM

A little testy, are we, Dustin?

I asked, specifically, what your PV/BV level, and what, specifically, the percentage of this came from you, your downline, and members/clients. All your answer was you are in compliance with Quixtar's 70% rule. Well, I can claim I'm the Queen of England, but without anything to back it up, it's as meaningless as your claim that you are in compliance. And don't give me any crap about it's your personal information. I want to know about your business and the claims you are making to help me decide just how good or bad the Quixtar opportunity is. Without specifics, if you are trying to change my mind, you cannot, and I will just have to go with the information I do have, such as there are only .23 member/client average per IBO, and the average Quixtar income for an active IBO is about $115/month.

Second, if you look at the government site, Social Security seems to be ok for another 40 years (they have projections until the year 2047). And the big problems seems to stem from the large number of baby boomers/retirees versus the number of workers and people living longer. Well, I can't argue that people are living longer and will take more money the longer they live, but the first problem really isn't one. Why? Immigration. History as shown that when there is a shortage of workers in the USA, there are plenty of able bodies from outside the country ready and willing to take the work. Just spend a couple of ours on our southern border with Mexico if you disagree with me.

As for the US economy, I have taken plenty of history courses (that is what my degree is in). 10 year cycles. That's probably been the most consistant thing you can say about the American economy. 10th year 10, 10th year down. Recessions in the early 70's, 80's 90's and again the last few years. But, recovery in the mid-70's, 80's, 90's and again, happening now. Of course there are outside influences, such as 9/11/01 that have huge sways, but overall, the economy is recovering very well, and will continue to grow for the next couple of years, regardless of who is elected this November.

On your math equations, Dustin, you have some serious problems. I spent just $200 at Target. This includes sales tax. The income tax is something completely different, and does not affect this computation. You, however, have spent $300 for a $75 rebate, that is taxable. You have spent $25 more (I have $25 more in my bank account then you do), and you have added $75 to your taxable income (at 15%, that is $11.75). So, at April 15, I will have an additional $36.25 in my bank account. Of course, being a business owner, you will have legitimate business expenses that you can write off. Chances are, I will be paying taxes on 4/15 and you will get a big refund. But let's dig deeper into this, shall we? Say I pay $1000 to the Feds on 4/15, and you get a refund for $1,000. Makes me look pretty bad and you look good...but wait, we forget something. For you to have gotten a check from the government for $1,000, you would have to have those expenditures to write-off (oops, we forget this, didn't we!). Say for every $1.00 you spend on your business, you get $.25 back from the government. So, for that $1,000, you had to spend $4,000 on business items that can be written off, for a total of -$3,000 in your bank account! (By the way, I think the average you get back on business write-offs is closer to $.16, and not $.25)

Next, let's talk about shopping habits. There are three reasons why in 10 years I will still be shopping at a store, as will the overwhelming portion of the population, and not buying stuff online. First and foremost is cost. Wal-Mart has made their mark by being the low cost leader, and part of their cost is distribution. With new tracking technology, distribution cost per store is minimal. However, distribution cost while ordering online can be prohibitive, and is almost always more expensive then from shopping at a store. In economic terms, it is cheaper to ship thousands of items to a small number of store locations then it is to ship small numbers of items to a larger number of house locations. The cost to distribute per item at Wal-Mart is probably less then $.01/item, whereas shipping costs online can vary depending on how/when you want something shipped, but is usually a few dollars. The exception is if you buy in bulk and the company eats the shipping cost. But what happens when you just want/need one or two items? You pay for shipping.

Which leads me to point #2. What happens if you need just one or two items, and you need them ASAP? Are you going to buy them online? At best, it will arrive next day mail, at a premium cost. Or, are you going to run out and buy something at the store, take it home, and use it, most likely in under an hour from decision to buy to ability to use, versus 24 hours. Add in the fact that most people will still choose to buy groceries at the store (I know I don't trust others to choose my eggs, product, etc.), and I'm still going to be at a store, why wait for things to be delivered when I can buy and use now? By the way, Dustin, did you know people had the ability to shop in their underwear in the 1800's? It was called a catalog, but with the advent of the automobile and easy transportation, the consumer chose to shop at stores for the convienance rather then wait for mail delivery. Besides, it was cheaper!

Point #3 is there is no communal experience shopping online. Ask any average 16-24 year old (a huge demographic), what they like to do on a typical weekend? What percentage will say, "hang out at the mall?" Large enough that the mall will be a viable shopping portal for a long time. Hard to hang out online, though it is possible with IM, but it's not the same. Besides, can you try on new clothes and have your friend critique what they look like online? What about people watching online? Or running into your neighbor or old friend? Highly unlikely.

And, I do have some numbers to back me up. Take a look at the US Census, which tracks online business numbers. http://www.census.gov/eos/www/papers/2002/2002finaltables.pdf Note, online sales from 2002 to 2003 were actually down 3.3% in terms of total shipments sent. It's because online shopping is the next evolution of catalog shopping, which has never had more then 3% total retail sales in the automobile era. The computer may help that number jump up past 3%, but probably not by much, meaning I'll be taking my Target trips for a long time.

Last, I may have gotten off the topic of Quixtar being a scam, but that doesn't mean I still don't believe it. The whole point of the blog post by QBlog is that the numbers aren't good, no matter how you slice them. Add the fact that millions are spent by IBO's on tools, and I'm willing to state that the overwhelming majority, up to and past 90% of all IBO's show a net loss with their business every year! And even with the tax benefits, the average person would do much better not spending on the business and buying from a discount merchandiser like Target, Wal-Mart or Costco and have more money in their bank account at the end of the year then an IBO. And isn't this what business is all about? Expanding the bank account.

Posted by: dmm | July 19, 2004 2:20 PM

One last comment on me not giving you other alternative on how to become financially independent and the view that, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem." I find this to be very short-sighted. For example, if a person is about to jump off a cliff and I say don't do it because you will either hurt or kill yourself but offer no other alternative to jumping off the cliff, and I still part of the problem? Of course not. And I believe Quixtar to be a big cliff, that most people jump off of as most people either lose money, or recruit a large number of people who lose money, as retailing in Quixtar is minimal, and what is left is a product based recruiting pyramid. Add the fact that the real money is in the tool scam, and Quixtar becomes an even bigger cliff.

Posted by: dmm | July 19, 2004 2:51 PM

Dustin,

1. Your investment math is off. If you save $100/mo for 40 years at 12% rate, you will have almost $1.2 million. At 2% inflation, you would need roughly $130K/yr to maintain a $50K/yr lifestyle from today. You have more than the 4.8 years you claim…you have about 17 years of income left – assuming the same 12% return and 2% inflation. As you find Quixtar the greatest opportunity available, I understand how this math thing may trip you up. And, if you haven’t bought your house or other living arrangement given a 40 year period (thus saving that expense), you have lost in the game of life, my friend.

2. The effort in the above residual income was no more than setting up a one time allotment for $100/mo. Not a bad time vs. return, huh? I don’t need to own my own business!

3. Target does pay me to shop there. They have their prices so low to begin with that I automatically get my rebate. I don’t have to wait for a check from Target or my upline for what I was overcharged in the first place.

4. DMM is right: I think you still have to go to the store, unless you just grab the cow and chicken out back. Plus, how else would you recruit people into your goofy scam if you didn’t prowl around the malls?

5. DMM has you on the tax thing, too. You’re not lying to the Feds, are you?

6. How is this, in any way, stealing someone’s ‘opportunity?’ Is that the new buzzword now instead of dream?

7. In closing, how is a system with a failure rate of over 90% a no risk opportunity? I think, no I hope, that 10 years from now you will look back on this folly and wonder how you fell for it. (By the way, your $100/mo would now be worth $23,233.91) Cha-Ching, baby!

Posted by: Porkchopjim | July 20, 2004 3:11 PM

Before I begin, I've been an IBO for about a year now. I don't believe that just because someone has the guts to ask me how much I'm making with my business powered by Quixtar I have to answer that question. I must wonder why that person wants to know? That I make next to nothing like all the naysayers would want to hear, or I make a good income because I'm an exception? Give me a break. Do you always tell people how much money you're getting paid from your job? And besides, it's interesting why you want to know about MY income level? ---------- Anyhow, I'm a very analytical person (professional mechanical engineer) and I would say I consider myself fairly keen about numbers and figures. I did the math and put the plan in Excel and worked out 500 sets of different structures (downline, PV/BV, etc.). I realized it's pointless to keep putting in different combinations so I stopped. Math is math. It worked. Then I spent 3 weeks doing fairly thorough research on Quixtar before I registered as an IBO. I came across various websites such as the AmQuix (I must say that it has a lot of information in it) site and naturally the tools business. I found mostly negative stuff regarding Quixtar on the Internet and I wasn't surprised. I went so far to call the FTC twice (one of agents gladly told me about Alticor/Quixtar and wished me luck and with my Quixtar venture) and printed out the 50 something page document on FTC's website. That document contained mostly inquiries about Quixtar and complaints from people who quit the business within a year. What did I learn from that? What a bunch of WHINERS!!! I'm sure there have been people who were misinformed and I feel sorry for them. I asked (who is now) my diamond about the tools business before I registered, and got a fairly straightforward answer from him. There ARE profits made in tools and they're shared among platinums and above. They deserve it. I took many engineering classes in which the professors authroed the textbooks. I'm sure they made money from the books. They deserved it. If an IBO didn't find the tools valuable, they shouldn't buy them. But don't say the plan didn't work if you don't want to follow the blue print. This being said, I'm sure there have been people who misrepresent the income possibilities and the effort involved. This has not been my experience. Dustin and DMM have provided some valuable information for those who are evaluating the business. The bottomline is this is a business opportunity, not a job, or simply a place to buy as a consumer. Yes, Walmart does offer "savings" on products, but not on all products. Now let's not forget about Target and 7-11 or even Nordstrom or whatever other businesses out there that are doing very well. Quixtar offer good products and reasonable prices. As a consumer, it's just another good place to shop. Quixtar has the best customer service I've ever come across from a consumer standpoint. As a business owner, it's an opportunity to make a sizable income if I choose to. To be able to do that, I need to confront my own fears of say, being judged by others who think negatively about the busienss, among other things. I'm mature enought to admit that and work on it. Please don't get hung up by some of the negative things that happen because some people's wrongdoing. Talk to an unemployed new college grad and ask them how much their degrees are doing for them. Are you goign to let the comments of those people stop you from sending you or your kids to college? My expereince with the Quixtar business has been very positive. Instead of discussing them here, I'd recommend those contemplating or simply curious about the Quixtar opportunity do what I did. Do extensive research and talk to the people who are actively involved in the business. Ask them questions about topics we're discussing here until you find an answer. If you don't want them to call you, kindly tell them so. See the pros and cons of the opportunity. If I must pick out any down side to this business, I'd have to say, as is with any business, that delayed gratification must be expected and endured. If you've been conditioned to labor for a job so that you get a paycheck every 2 weeks and don't plan to change that mindset, you'll be probably have to do that until 65 or beyond. If you are ok with that, then so be it. It's your life. This business opportunity is for someone who wants to take advantage of it to become financially free. Don't ruin it for them.

Posted by: Do_Your_Homework | July 28, 2004 5:41 PM

DIH, the reason why I ask for income verification is simple. Quixtar is being presented to me as a business opportunity, and I am doing my due diligence. I don't care how much you are making at your job, because that is not being presented to me as a way to make money. Offer me a position at your company, and that's different. Of course I am going to want to know what kind of salary we will be talking about.

In the non-Quixtar world, people looking at income opportunities ask for verification all the time. If you ever want to open up a franchise, you better get an offering circular that contains what the average store income is and how the corporation is doing financially. And if you ever intend to open your own business and seek bank financing, one of the things the bank is going to ask for is your personal money information, as well as how well your potential competition is doing, because the bank wants to know if the business if viable, and that there is not too much competition. And why do they want to know? For the same reason I do. If I am going to invest in an income opportunity, I want to know all the risks and what my chance of making it really is.

Posted by: dmm | July 29, 2004 10:53 AM

Guys, anyone who says Quixtar/BWW is a scam are idiots. The problem is, it's so simple people think it's a scam. We've been told "if it's too good to be true, it probably is". Well, this isn't a get-rich-quick scheme. It's a business, and yes, you have to work. The only thing is, the work you do NOW pays off LATER. It's called residual income.
All you do is sign up to be an IBO. You get points based on what you and the IBO's, members (people who pay to become a member of the site and shop for discounted prices), and clients (people who buy stuff from the site at full-price) under you buy. You get so many points, you get a check for a percentage back. You sign up enough IBO's who do enough points, you get bigger checks. You don't have to go diamond or platinum to get rich. You just need to get some serious people under you. Quixtar is the site that has the goods, and BWW is the company that sales motivational books, tapes, cd's and supplies.
In fact, the system works nearly identical to Mary Kay makeup company. You have women (and men) who sell makeup, recruit people to sell, or just get people to buy makeup from them. They get rewards.
It's just that simple. There are no promises. The only promise is that if you get X amount of people who buy Y amount of dollars of products, you get Z amount of money.
You get enough people under your chain, and you don't have to work anymore. Of course it's difficult, but college kids are retiring before they even graduate off of this system, by referring buddy after buddy. It's just like anyone who starts a successfull company. A guy might open a grocery store. He works day and night making it good. A few years go by and the store is doing fine on it's own, the owner hires an assistant manager to take care of what he used to take care of, and then he no longer works at the store, but reaps the rewards.
All I am saying is that it's not a scam because you are not promised anything. You don't order a book from TV and then it's "go at it". You have a free family you can meet up with once a week at a hotel, in each other's homes, and an upline mentor who WANTS you to succeed because if YOU succeed, HE succeeds.
It's really simple.

Posted by: Jessfan84 | August 29, 2004 8:04 AM

If you like it and think that it will benefit you go for it.... and good luck... if you dont like it and dont want to be in it thats fine too... Everyone needs to quit arguing and live their lives.... Quit all your bitchin

Posted by: Kris | September 13, 2004 12:28 PM

The debate I read here seems to be focused primarily on the financial pros and cons of the “opportunity”. I think what is being overlooked is the unfortunate toll that Quixtar takes on the psychology of the converted.

First off you need to consider this fact. The people that succeed in Quixtar are not a success based on their ability to simply save while shopping. If discount online shopping was all there was to it there then would be no debate. A “Diamond” becomes a success through their powers of persuasion. As with any pyramid the successful are those who find themselves at the top with a broad base of followers who support them. There is no “business” to own in this venture. There is nothing produced. There is nothing manufactured. There is nothing to own. All there is is an online catalog of products and a hierarchy of ultra-persuasive middlemen who profit greatest off of their ability to persuade others to climb on board.

Their targets logically are those who are most easily persuaded. The young, the impressionable and the disenfranchised become the bedrock of their construct. This is the reality that inspires the comparisons to cult movements. Quixtar is simply the latest in a long line of “head games” designed to attack conventional wisdom and destroy conventional belief systems while attempting to inspire a carefully crafted loyalty in their own concept of a new and improved way of life. The lure is the promise financial security and life of wealth and leisure realized through a reinvented form of free enterprise. How wholesome and “American” it all seems, so much more palatable than those other more bizarre cults that came before. Gone are the orange robes and the shaved heads of the Krishna’s. No more of the elaborate ceremony and mass weddings of the Moonie’s. In their place is a more innocent and subtle manipulation using “good ol’ fashioned commerce” with a biblical stamp of approval thrown in for good measure.

I am a successful small businessman. I know about hard work. I know about pride in ownership. I know how to plan for my future. I know about the American dream because I am living it. A few months ago my impressionable 18 year old daughter dropped out of college. She moved in with here impressionable 20 year old boyfriend who subsequently dropped out of college. Together they are busting their butts to survive on meager hourly wages. Together they spend much of what little extra they earn to travel to “Quxtar events”. With naive optimism they brag of receiving bonuses that equal “nearly half of what we paid out” as if spending $900.00 to make back $400.00 equates to profit. After a life of virtual Atheism my daughter has now “found God” and is confident that “Quixtar is a good thing” because all of her mentors are “good Christians”.

Quixtar is a scam plain and simple. The followers who defend it so fiercely do so because it is a response that has been brainwashed into them. The discussions I have had with my daughter are eerily similar to those I see here. The sameness in the phrases used, the “verse and chapter” arguments speak to a force fed “party line” that is to be regurgitated at the feet of the nonbelievers.

Despite my successes and my resume my daughter is unreachable. I have no influence on her whatsoever. The language I speak she no longer understands. The language she speaks is devoid of any conventional business wisdom. If I ever meet a “diamond” rest assured I will wring his neck.

Posted by: DV | September 14, 2004 3:18 PM

QBlog,

I think that your post here is misrepresenting the Quixtar opportunity.

In order to get an accurate prospective of this business, we need to realize that it is just that, a business. I am an Independent Business Owner and my business is powered by Quixtar. So a comparison to a job income is not the most accurate comparison.

You failed to take into account that the above averages are based on full-time incomes, when the fact is that the vast majority of IBO’s start out part-time on top of a full-time job.

You failed to take into account that the average monthly gross income of IBO’s is added to, (in many cases), a pre-existing income from their job so it fits into the category of extra income, until the income gets high enough to replace their full-time income.

You failed to illustrate that there are significant tax advantages for IBO’s and an IBO earning the average stated income can effectively write-off more than they earned. This may allow them to take a loss on their business that year, and that loss, (in many cases), can roll over to their personal income, in which case they pay taxes on a lower annual income, (sometimes putting them in a lower tax bracket), and they make more on their tax returns, which is actually additional income. I am not a professional Tax Advisor or Accountant, so this is by no means legal advice, but more common sense to those in the business field. So we could just as easily say that the average IBO is profitable, or at least breaks even, after business expenses.

According to the U.S. Small Business Administration, “over 50% of small businesses fail in the first year and 95% fail within the first five years. These figures aren't meant to scare you, but to prepare you for the rocky path ahead. Underestimating the difficulty of starting a business is one of the biggest obstacles entrepreneurs face. However, success can be yours if you are patient, willing to work hard, and take all the necessary steps. It's true that there are many reasons not to start your own business. But for the right person, the advantages of business ownership far outweigh the risks”. A few benefits of owning your own business are:

You will be your own boss.
Hard work and long hours directly benefit you, rather than increasing profits for someone else.
Earning and growth potential are far greater.
A new venture is as exciting as it is risky.
Running a business provides endless challenge and opportunities for learning.

I also have a problem with the way that you come up with your figures and statistics. You take 1 Billion and divide it over 5 years, and then try to evenly divide it to IBO’s to get income representations. But this is free enterprise, and as an independent business owner I can choose to build a large business that is growing and profitable, or a very small business that isn’t. I should be compensated based on the size of the business I build and the amount of volume that is flowing through it. Your statistics remind me of a socialist view of economics and trying to evenly distribute wealth to everyone. If I were to use your math I could come to the following conclusions about Americans:

The total U.S. population is roughly 300 Million and the total U.S. personal income is roughly 9 trillion. Now let's just say that the goal of an American is to match the U.S. average of $47,101. How many Americans will be able to earn that much in the U.S. before the $9 Trillion is gone? Well, my math (and check it yourself) reveals that only 191,078 out of 300 million Americans (in this hypothetical example) earned the U.S. average income.

You might think that was a silly example, but that was how silly I saw the example that you put together about IBO’s. To get an accurate view of average incomes for IBO’s we should start at the Platinum and above level because at that level there is at least some consistency of effort, activity and results. We should also take it one step further and only include “Founders” levels because if a business can’t qualify all 12 out of 12 months, then it is not a strong business and is not very stable. A Founders business at the level of Platinum and above is a good example of a well-built business and is a good starting point to give someone average incomes when they are interested. So let’s take a look at the most current corporate-approved IBO Incomes:

Quixtar U.S. Average Incomes for 2003:
Founders Platinum: $32,686.
Founders Emerald: $95,493.
Founders Diamond: $275,102.
Founders EDC & up: $746,122.

I confirmed these average incomes by calling Quixtar and they do not reflect any potential income that could come from the sale of business support materials. That can be an additional bonus for those that participate in that program, and depending on your organization, the compensation plan for that my vary. Usually it begins at the Platinum level and above. An IBO should consult with their diamond if they are interested in finding out more information about that profit potential.

And one more thing. You began this post by talking about how Quixtar only includes 2/3rds of its IBO’s in the Average Income equation by using their “active” qualification. If you study business statistics and watch other companies in their statistics, this is common practice to have a reasonable guideline by which to form the statistics. I personally think that Quixtar did not go far enough because in order for someone to be active, all they had to do was “attempt” to make a sale or present this opportunity to someone.

This should also give you a fair idea on the annual turnover. Roughly 1/3rd of IBO’s that register do not even become active by “attempting” to make a sale, contact, etc. So to get any realistic views and statistics, it is better to track the performers and start from there. If I were to ask someone “if you register, but don’t show any plans, and don’t order any products, and don’t plug into a training system, what do you think your chances for success would be?” Of course their answer would be “None”. So statistics that reflect IBO’s actually performing in their business are more accurate and I am sure that in the future you will see the company poll many independent business owners to gather information and statistics like this.

Posted by: Chris | September 18, 2004 12:36 AM

Au contraire my good friend Chris,

I'm not representing or misrepresenting the Quixtar opportunity, merely sharing some numbers. I didn't fail to take anything into account, if Quixtar wants to put their own numbers in the proper perspective then why don't they do that? Actually, that's a wonderful question.

Why doesn't Quixtar take their extremely low income numbers and put them into the same perspective that you put them in? Why do they leave the "defending the numbers" to IBOs like yourself? I bet that the FTC and Quixtar's lawyers will tell you exactly why they don't do that... because they can't. Why can't they? Because it would be misrepresenting the opportunity.

Where did you get your stats? I provided links to all of mine, please do the same. Here's a break down of U.S. incomes by the Census Bureau:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/p60-213.pdf

And you're math is wrong, not to mention your calculation methodology but using your own logic and math, you're wrong.

Let's ask some Quixtar questions:
How many IBOs received the $32,686 bonus for 2003?
How many earned $95,493 bonus in 2003?
How many earned $95,493 bonus in 2003?
Etc.

Put it in perspective please (it's "perspective" not "prospective" as you've stated).

I agree that Quixtar should be more stringent in determining who is active and who isn't. Why aren't they?

Posted by: QBlog | September 23, 2004 9:53 PM

QBlog, you didn't show me how my math was wrong or what you meant by that. I simply put things in perspective because the way you put out the numbers made them seem negative, when they really are actually pretty good.

Your questions are directed towards Quixtar, so I am unable to answer those for you, but here are a couple of websites that will show how I got my stats. I can't remember the exact page I was on when I got those figures, but these should give you the general idea. And if I am wrong on my math, can you show me how?

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/databook/economy/ct01.htm

http://www.sba.gov/starting_business/startup/areyouready.html

Posted by: Chris | September 24, 2004 6:31 AM

9,000,000,000,000 divided by 47,101 = 191,078,745 not 191,078. And, as you'll see below, that number is actually larger than the total 1998 U.S. workforce.

Your logic is flawed because you're using the total U.S. population, not the total U.S. workforce that reports its taxes. However, let's look at the total U.S. workforce as reported here: http://tech-geeks.org/tiny.php?url=1228

We see 138,000,000 working or looking for work (that's another issue) and if we multiply that by 47,101 we get roughly 6.5 trillion, which is less than the 9 trillion you mentioned.

That, my good friend, is why you're math is wrong.

And that is also why Quixtar's numbers still look pretty small when put in perspective.

Posted by: QBlog | September 24, 2004 7:49 AM

QBlog, thanks for the math update. I was unsure, which was why I asked for correction if it was wrong, so thanks. But hopefully you saw the point that I was trying to make.

The perspective that you put the numbers in is not totally correct. You make them out as if they were bad numbers. It seems like your philosophy is that if the numbers are small that it's not good, when many people would look at the same numbers as a sign of much room for potential growth.

The debate here is similar to the debate that democrats have against republicans on the direction of the economy and the role in government and economics. My liberal friends think that their is a limited amount of wealth available, and that poor people don't have access to it, and so the rich people should pay more in taxes and the government should give that money to the poor people.

I on the other hand view that differently, and all one has to do is turn on the tv to see how the nation is split on issues like this. It is the old discussion of free enterprise vs. socialism.

It comes down to "would you rather live average and comfortably" or would you rather take a chance at wealth, even though you might not succeed. Many would not take the risk, even though the reward might be greater, and many might take the risk, and some will succeed.

Minus one incorrect math calculation in my comments, the rest of my post is very valid in the perspective that needs to be understood when looking at the numbers.

You asked to be shown where you were wrong and what you missed and my post does just that. Will you admit that my perspective at looking at these numbers is valid?

I agree with you by the way, that it would be great if Quixtar went into more details concerning their numbers, but they do a fair job for a privately held company, and no matter what they do, there is always more that we will want.

Posted by: Chris | September 24, 2004 11:02 PM

paying someone else to be called an "independent business owner" instead of actually starting your own business independently has scam written all over it.

Posted by: nordis | September 26, 2004 9:24 PM

Nordis, your comment below makes no sense

Posted by: Chris | September 27, 2004 4:30 PM

All of the IBO's of Quixtar are clearly brainwashed. Ever wonder why they make you buy endless amounts of tapes and books? To learn? No, so that you don't see the reality of the situation. You are paying all kinds of money for seminars, books, and tapes for disclosure from the world! This further makes you think that this scheme is possible, and that you can benefit from it.

However, everyone at the top is making the money off of your purchases of the tapes (ie dream promises).

Go to College, learn something valuable. Profit from a REAL education.

Lastly, read the Bible not someone's BS about making money.

Posted by: JW | September 29, 2004 2:27 AM

JW,

You are lost my friend. I feel sorry for you.

All of the IBO’s are NOT brainwashed. Of course the tapes and books help IBO’s to learn the business so that they know what they are doing and can succeed. IBO’s do NOT buy the tools for disclosure from the world, they buy them for information to help them succeed in their business.

Of course someone makes profit every time something is purchased anywhere. That is business. I would hope that they weren’t losing money selling materials, otherwise they might have to stop producing them, and I would lose access to a wonderful training system that has helped me to become more successful with my business and life.

Went to college, tried out that REAL education you are talking about. Most people don’t even remember much of what they learned in college, let alone use those skills in their jobs. The tapes, books and seminars that are available to IBO’s teach more about real life situations that they will face, both in business, and in life. I would consider those materials a REAL education as well. I wish college taught more of the topics taught on the tapes and books.

Thanks for your tip to read the bible, I think that is great advice. But, if someone is interested in earning more income or becoming more successful in business, then I would recommend that they listen to someone that will teach them how.

Posted by: Chris | September 29, 2004 7:17 AM

I am a quixtar IBO, if any young college student is interested in starting a quixtar powered "business", RE CONSIDER! you will lose money, you have to have 10,000 to start the business, simple as that, its not the low cost of 80 for registering, or 250 for being part of a group.. there are other fees, hidden fees, business expenses taht you can supposably write off. Uplines will presure you, wear expensive looking suits and drive a nice car to scam you, they have had previous jobs that have made them that money. NOT FROM QUIXTAR... PLEASE LISTEN TO ME.. I DONT WANT TO SEE PEOPLE GO BROKE WITH THIS CRAP. I know that the numbers are showen including active and non active ibo's, well i have been really active, pushing products and maintaining a good PV/BV level, i do no see squat ffrom the amount of hours it takes.. its not 8-10 hours a week, its over 40 and a lot of driving, AND A LOT OF COFEE TO BUY PEOPLE..... I can sit here and ramble on about how crappy it is, but i dont have time for this crap, i am too busy getting myself out of the debt that quixtar has put me in.

Posted by: Quixtar Scam | November 9, 2004 12:47 AM

To cut a long story short,
Quixtar is a SCAM.
Read this...
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4375477/

Half the IBOs and Indians with miserable English language ability. The only two words they use are "awesome" and "fired-up"

Quixtar should consider adding an English language dictionary to their list of products. That's what the IBOs need most.

Posted by: Simon | November 30, 2004 10:30 PM