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June 15, 2004
Perception = Reality
By QBlog in
Quixtar is NOT Amway. Quixtar is Amway. Quixtar was Amway. Quixtar was NEVER Amway. Amway and Quixtar are sister companies. Quixtar and Amway are the same company. Amway evolved into Quixtar. Quixtar was started by the people who started Amway. Quixtar sells the same products Amway sells. Quixtar is on the Internet and Amway is not. The Quixtar system is TOTALLY different than the Amway system.
I've heard every single one of those statements since I've been investigating Quixtar. Which is true? Which one best describes reality? Well, there's an old saying that perception equals reality. You be the judge.
Comments
And I suppose we should just pick which name from Ford Explorer and Ford Excersion and go with it for both, since they're -you know- both SUVs.
I think a more apt comparison would be dodge caravan = plymuoth voyager. Same wheelbase, same drivetrain, and whaddya know? Same COMPANY - Chrysler.
Yes Dwighty, they are both SUV's, but they are not the exact same SUV. There are many marked differences between them.
I'm no car buff, but there's more differences between the Excursion and the Explorer than there is between Amway and Quixtar. Why would you make two vehicles with the same name?
Hiding something?..................
Of COURSE it's not the same!!! Amway=Quixtar IBOs don't 'work' their business, they 'build' it....they get many 'vacations' - in the form of functions...they don't get 'sick' or 'ill' (because they take Nutrilite), they have 'health challenges'... they don't 'lie' they just 'omit'...they don't have 'financial problems' they just practice 'delayed gratificiation'...they don't have expenses, they just have write-offs...they don't have 'bosses' they are just loyal to their LOS kingpins....they don't have 'jobs' they just have 'freedom'.....
It's not that they aren't....it's just that they ARE....
It's all synonomous, isn't it?
It's just that simple!
I think a good comparison would be how liberals are now calling themselves progressives. The word liberal has become a dirty word, just like Amway. I bet Quixtar IBO's hate being associated with liberalism.
But wait, Scott...
Same fuel, right? Same company. Same four tires! I mean, there are so many similarities! They must be the same thing. They're both SUVs. They both guzzle gas. They both have stearing wheels. I mean, let's not get complicated, here. Simplify, right? That's what you're all about, after all. They are inherently the same thing, so why differentiate between the two? Just call a heart a spade.
It's just that simple.
OK, so when Foot Locker, a brick-n-mortar sporting goods store with a certain business model, opens their e-store and calls it footaction, owned by the same company and investors, selling the same products, and using the same business model, with the same shreholders and board of directors, it's not really Foot Locker?
Sure, the e-name is different from the brick-n-mortar name. What else is different? Same product, same owners and shareholders, same compensation plan, same business model, and same corporate structure.
A rose by any other name...
The difference between the Excursion and Explorer, dwighty, lie in their stowing and towing capacity. The Excursion is bigger and has more cargo space, and I think a better torque ratio, and can therefore tow more. The Excursion is also more expensive. Surely they are similar and "related vehicles", but they are not the same.
As for Amway and Quixtar, what's the difference between the two? Online ordering. So, does this make Walmart.com different then Wal-Mart? More partner stores? So, if Target adds a new line from a new vendor, does that make it a different store? The answers are no and no, respecivately, which is why, for all intents and purposes, Quixtar=Amway.
By the way, a better example, dwighty, would be the Ford Explorer and the old Mazda Navajo. Same exact vehicle that came from the same plant. Only difference was the name plate. And yes, I would say the Navajo = the Explorer, just like Quixtar = Amway.
My point was that the smallest difference is still a difference.
.99999999999 does not = 1, no matter how bad you want it to.
I understand your unadulturated passion for bashing Quixtar as Amway -actually, I don't- but you're wrong no matter what way you look at it.
I'm surprised LawDawg has become surprisingly silent on the fact that LEGALLY Quixtar and Amway have been identified as seperate entities, pulling in seperate profits under seperate names.
Bottom line: Wishful thinking never got a man anywhere. Pick another angle.
Actually, Dwighty, I addressed it in my comment below.
"Alticor" legally is nothing more than a name change for Amway Corporation. In fact, it's the same company as Ja-Ri Corporation - Rich and Jay's original Nutrilite distributorship. The Michigan Sect. of State's records show an original filing date for Alticor, Inc. in 1949! Thus, Alticor, Inc. is the EXACT SAME LEGAL ENTITY as the company that was known as "Amway Corporation" from 1963 to 2000 and as "Ja-Ri Corp." from 1949 to 1963.
Alticor, Inc. f/k/a Awmay Corporation f/k/a Ja-Ri Corp. owned a Virginia corporation called Amway USA, Inc. In 1999, they formed Quixtar, Inc. as a Michigan corporation. On May 18, 2000, Quixtar, Inc. was merged INTO Amway USA, Inc. and the name was legally changed to "Quixtar, Inc." However, Quixtar, Inc. which is a Virginia corporation is just a new name for the legal entity previously named "Amway USA, Inc." Another "Amway Corporation" was formed in 2000 as a new Delaware corporation.
So . . . if you are talking about the CURRENT Amway Corporation and Quixtar, Inc. they are sister companies owned by Alticor, Inc. f/k/a Amway Corporation f/k/a Ja-Ri Corp. If you are talking about the Amway Corporation as it existed from 1963 to 2000 then Quixtar, Inc. is a subsidiary of the renamed Amway Corporation and has merged into Amway USA, Inc.
It's just a bunch of confusing name changes, Dwighty. When you get back from Sweeden and change your name to Daphne you'll still be Dwighty - you'll just want to be called "Daphne" (and you'll be missing some parts).
:-)
It was explained to me, that Quixtar is Amway in the United States, and Amway is Amway everywhere else.
If you go to Alticor's Website, you can go to Amway and to Quixtar. To use the current analogy, if you go to Ford's website, you can go to Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, Mazda, Jaguar, ect....
Cliff's Notes Version:
"Alticor, Inc." = Amway Corporation (ca. 1963-2000). Same legal entity with a new name.
"Quixtar, Inc. = Amway USA, Inc.. Same legal entity with a new name.
In sum, Quixtar=Amway and 1=1.
QED
If you want another car anology, Dwighty, how about Datsun and Nissan. Before 1985 (I think), there was no such thing as a Nissan in the USA, but there were Datsuns. But Nissan changed their name in the North America, and Datsun's line of cars became Nissans. And even though Nissan has changed the designs and added/taken away some models, Datsun = Nissan, just like Amway = Quixtar.
I think you're all missing the point.
1) Amway and Quixtar are NOT the same. Quixtar is a completely different company. Amway does not even exist in North America anymore. You could argue that they have the same products, but what does that prove? First of all, the products are great, but that's a different topic. Quixtar was formed to take advantage of the internet. They saw where the trends were moving, and took advantage of one of the most efficient distribution systems in the US. They re-organized the companies for specific business needs...and the resulting companies? Access Logistics: One of the major forces in distribution which they have won awards for. They distribute more than their own stuff. Access Business Group: A company focused on manufacturing and product innovation. Quixtar: The portal, an on-line shopping mall with over 2 million products and services through partner stores and Access Business Group (Amway had something like 2-300,000...still not bad). Pixys Innovations: A company focused on technology and research to bring the shopping experience more mobile. Using the SUV analogy, comparing the new businesses with Amway is like comparing an Escalade with a Sportage. The name changed because of strategic reasons, not because they had to. It changed because the nature of the business changed, and to reflect the new vision of the company. If you see the same products and think "same company", then the depth of your investigation wasn't deep enough.
2) Regardless of the above...THAT'S NOT THE POINT! The above referenced Quixtar is only a portal! All they do is have the products and pay the money, meaning, you can't compare one Quixtar guy to the next. One guy could sell water treatment systems, while the next could build a profitable affiliate marketing group, yet both be supplied by Quixtar. Big difference. So if Quixtar is only a supplier, all I care about is that the products work (which they do), and they pay big bonuses for referring sales to them (which they DEFINITELY do).
3) I don't understand why people bash the training tools used. If you have bashed the training tools, then you must either have never run a business, or have never done anything significant in your life. Sorry, but that's the truth. You name me one profession that doesn't require contiuous professional development.
But no, Brian! Quixtar = Amway! It does! It does! Please, dear god! It = Amway! I don't want a vasectomy! *whines*
Amway, Quixtar, Alticor. Who cares.
It's the damn IBO & the AQMO that matter. They are exactly the same as before.
"...name me one profession that doesn't require continuos professional development."
What does legitimate professional development have to do with AMO material?
I have yet to hear a Q-AMO tape or seminar that promoted an actual business. They're all the same..."I used to be poor and broke just like you, but NOW look how I live...I have a nice car, I have a nice home, my kids go to private schools, I am free, free, FREE, and you can be, too, if you just go out there and duplicate, duplicate, DUPLICATE"...duplicate WHAT? Duplicate YOURSELF, so the guy making the tape has one more sucker to leech off of, that's what.
I've not heard one thing, in any of the tapes or meetings that I have been reluctantly subjected to, that actually provides any real information or education. Just a whole lot of hype, most of it uncomfortably loud.
On the other hand, the seminars that I have attended in other aspects of professional life, have always offered some actual information, which I have been able to implement in my profession. Do they include hype and schmoozing? Sure, but the info is still useful.
The analogy between 'continuing education' (or college) and Q-AMO tools always cracks me up.
CK, we must not be listening to the same stuff, which is entirely possible. If all you heard was "hype", then I would go investigate a different line of sponsorship.
Wow.
While I admit that some can be as you described. There are many that provide excellent business advice.
Agreed, Dwighty. While there are some tools that are "hype" or motivational, it appeared that CK was trying to blanket them all as the same thing. But there many more that are instructional and have tips for building a profitable business.
Sorry, was out of the loop at the J-O-B this morning.
I guess as far as the comparison in vehicles is, nobody has ever tried to have me test drive a vehicle while hiding the model name from me. Eg.
Q. What kind of car is this?
A. It's great, you wouldn't believe me if I told you.
Q. Well is it a Ford?
A. Why, what do you know about Fords?
Do you see where I view it as? I'm not saying all IBOs are like that, but any that I knew over a 1 yr. period were.
I believe it can be conceded that most people believe that the name changed to cover up what it was.
But that's just me.
Forgive my ignorance though, I'm no wxpert. Just my thoughts :)
I bash the tools because they are NOT effective. It's what I do. Amen?
Amen!
Same owners, same lines of sponsership, same core products. Sorry, Quixtar = Amway, dispite the fact that there is a new focus on the internet. Just because a company changes its name and evolves, does not mean it is different.
As for bashing the tools, it's easy. Only about 1 in 13,000 IBO's ever make it to diamond. If the tools were so great, the ratio would be better. In addition, diamonds make significantly more money on tools then they do in their Amway=Quixtar business. Add it all up, and the tools are a scam. They profess anyone can take the tools and become and Amway/Quixtar millionaire, when in reality, only the people who are selling the tools are raking in the dough!
What's funny is that everyone always makes note of the small number of diamonds that make money. What about the thousands of Platinums? The thousands of Emeralds? Or even the 2500 pin pulling enough on the side to make a car payment (if that's all he/she wanted)?
The business takes WORK! It's the people that are ineffective, not the tools. Many start their business thinking it's a get-rich-quick scheme, and when they figured out it takes some work, they quit...and bash the system for their own short-comings. I have many FAT friends who have gym memberships, but it doesn't mean the gym equipment doesn't work. It means my friends gave up.
When I have a new guy that wants to get started I let them know the following up front: 1) It takes overhead. If they can't afford it, I work with them on generating enough cash from the business so that the business will fund itself. I don't FORCE them to buy anything. My whole goal is to get them to make money, and I need to prove it to them within the first 2 months, because if I don't, the chances of them quitting are high. I usually succeed, if they're willing to listen. 2) It takes work. I don't want some half-assed guy trying to build the business, because he's going to get half-assed results. Then blame the business for it. 3) It takes time. BUT...I don't want them doing anything foolish like dipping into savings or using credit cards for stuff. That's just stupid.
Also, whenever I sit down with someone, I let them know that we use Quixtar as a servicing company within the first 5 minutes of meeting them. I don't agree with the "dropping the bomb" tactic. If they havce some "allergic" reaction up-front, it saves me half-an-hour of breath.
Anyway, I'm done. It's been nice chatting with you all. I realize that none of you will all of a sudden have a "come to Jesus" moment and start agreeing with me, but it's been fun getting your perspectives. Hope you have enjoyed mine, as much as you don't agree. Have a great evening!
That's fantastic that there are thousands of Platinums. According to former DD's & above, you break even at that point. At Emerald, you're making more off of the incredibly useful tools than from the products.
That's the reason for tool bashing. It's deceptive, and dishonest at best.
And it is NEVER mentioned when the plan is being shown, that's why it upsets people when the truth comes out.
Not saying that's all everyone does, but most do.
But that's just me :)
I know, I said last post. Sorry. Scott, that's not entirely true at all (with the organization I'm in...that's the only one I can speak for). Our material that we're required to hand out (by the FTC) indicates that there is money made off of tools. It's clearly stated.
Secondly, let's say you spend $200 a month on tools and aids ($70 on CD's, $100 on functions - that includes savings for the quarterly functions, and $30 on a voice-mail/communication system). That's on the high-end, but we'll use that anyway. As a 2500 pin (again with the right parameters, not sponsoring 2 or 3 guys who do most of the work), you will pull in $10,000, which is $833 per month. That leaves you with a $600 profit. I have no clue where you heard the "breakeven at platinum" bit, but it's unfounded. Look at the business plan.
Quixtar's lawyers meet with the FTC and IRS every year and submit our business plan to them for review to make sure that everything we claim is in compliance with their guidelines. Every year it passes. So the $10K part that I quote has been OK'd to say per the FTC. You just have to take the fact that I spend less than $200 on faith. I do spend less than that.
But, Scott, thanks for at least realizing that not everyone's intentions are not the same. I agree, many don't disclose some information. My intentions have never been to scam someone or hide information from anyone, but to genuinely and honestly help them out. Sorry for all the lenthy posts. Now, I'm done (I know, you heard that before).
Brian, where did you get all those info. I'm an advocate of Quixtar, but those info smell like they had been pull out of somebody @$$.
In the expense part, you didn't include the car expense. That's a big chunk out of your operating cost. 10 plans/month w/ follow-up will drive you 500 mile to 2,000 mile. Using an old IRS $0.31/mile cost, that's $150 to $600 in car expense per month. All the various
At 2,500 PV, to pull in 10 big ones, you'll have to be pretty wide, about 6 growing legs. Using Pareto Law (1 out of 5 will perform), you'll have to personally sponsor 30 to get 6 growing legs. Sponsoring is easy, but not that easy.
Where did you get the info that the FTC and IRS will personally comment on any plan??? They don't. They say go talk to your lawyer. The only time they'll comment is when they are giving you a invitation--one to the court for breaking the laws.
What the FTC said you can do is that you can quote specific number as long as you give the percentage of population achieving that. I also read, from non-FTC source, that you must give the percentage of population achieving that within your nearest locale and the average time spent.
Do you have the percentage of IBO who are at 2,500 PV? and do you have the percentage of IBO @ 2,500 PV who achieved $10k/year gross income? If not, you're breaking the law and making deceptive income claims.
Brian, you don't have to respond, its not that I discredit what you're saying, but if you check out Bo Short's site or Scott Larsen's (I'm not that Scott) you'll find it in there somewhere. Or, if you don't, that's great. Those two have spent more time researching this than I care to, so I go by what they say.
As far as the reasons for tool bashing and it not being shown as part of your income, I have been involved in that very situation. (True North in Canada) Don Lorencz was (is?) a diamond in that organization, and he has a website that really supports why the tool business is wrong. I for one stopped participating once I realized what the score was. I'll never forget the feeling of betrayal I felt when I first read a printout of Sidney Schwartz's site. Tools......that really pissed me off for being so gullible.
Your numbers, at a glance, seem very generous, and Jennifer Lee took care of my reservations about your IRS and FTC claims, but again, I am not privy to your business, so maybe it is accurate.
This was a very interesting topic. This is the first site I have ever felt the urge to join in on a debate, and it was fun.
Thanks Guys!
(even Dwighty:)
I heard that Amway turned into Quixtar or whatever to avoid paying a large inheritance tax when the founders pass away and the family takes over for good.
I have no idea how the inheritance tax works. That's all I heard.
Just watch the Dateline report.
If that doesn't make sense or open your eyes I don't know what will.
Of course the brainwashed, close minded IBOs will probably renounce all these findings.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ot31XhgE_XE&mode=related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qgnvMfDu47c
In my humble opinion, there may very well be a legal reason that Amway decided to call itself Quixtar.
Or maybe Amway itself decided a name change was in order, for whatever reason.
Let's not make it complicated; Quixtar is Amway. Same products, same plan, same motivational tools business that the benefactors didn't want anyone to know about.
It's just that simple.
But thats just me.
Have a good one:)
Posted by: Scott | June 15, 2004 5:55 PM